Twelve Reasons We Need to Strike Syria Now:
Last edited Wed Sep 4, 2013, 06:19 PM - Edit history (2)
We have to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here!!!!!
Do you want to see a mushroom cloud??????
Don't you want them to have democracy!!!!!!!
Why do you hate America!!!!
They probably have yellow cake, for fuck sake!!!!
The enemy of our enemy is now our fucking friend. Didn't you get the memo?????
If we don't strike now, they may think they can get away with it!!!
Don't you know when a schoolyard bully beats you, it's some sort of analogy about having to go to war with other nations, goddammit???
It's not personal, this is business, and war is business, don't you know!?!?!!?!
Even though the 1% are living high on our dime, don't you know that they need more fucking money???
But, but, but, but Israel!!!!!
Think of the children!!!!!!!
You can't spell Assad without Ass!!!!
<What about the> about babies and incubators????
We need something other than targets to shoot our multi-million dollar cruise missiles at.
"WHAT! THEY HAVE BIGGER DICKS? BOMB THEM!" (thanks George Carlin)
Edit to add poster comments.
Another edit to add more.
= new reply since forum marked as read
Since you can't be bothered to educate yourself before taking jabs at me, I guess I'll do some of the leg work for you.
Howard Zinn:
Ziga Vodovnik: Pierre-Joseph Proudhon once wrote that: "Freedom is the mother, not the daughter of order." Where do you see life after or beyond (nation) states?
Howard Zinn: Beyond the nation states? (laughter) I think what lies beyond the nation states is a world without national boundaries, but also with people organized. But not organized as nations, but people organized as groups, as collectives, without national and any kind of boundaries. Without any kind of borders, passports, visas. None of that! Of collectives of different sizes, depending on the function of the collective, having contacts with one another. You cannot have self-sufficient little collectives, because these collectives have different resources available to them. This is something anarchist theory has not worked out and maybe cannot possibly work out in advance, because it would have to work itself out in practice.
Howard Zinn: Anarchism Shouldn't Be a Dirty Word
Orwell and Hemingway referred to themselves primarily as libertarian socialists, a synonym for anarchism (Orwell was disillusioned with Marxism; Hemingway with Leninism). Both fought with the socialists and anarchists against the fascist Franco forces in the Spanish Civil War:
<snip>
On anarchism, Orwell wrote in The Road to Wigan Pier: "I worked out an anarchistic theory that all government is evil, that the punishment always does more harm than the crime and the people can be trusted to behave decently if you will only let them alone." He continued however and argued that "it is always necessary to protect peaceful people from violence. In any state of society where crime can be profitable you have got to have a harsh criminal law and administer it ruthlessly."
Large-scale anti-fascist movements were first seen in the 1930s, during the Spanish Civil War. The Republican Government and army, the Communist Party(PCE) the International Brigades, the Workers' Party of Marxist Unification (POUM) and Spanish anarchist militias such as the Iron Column fought the rise of Francisco Franco with military force. The Friends of Durruti were a particularly militant group, associated with the Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI). Thousands of people from many countries went to Spain in support of the anti-fascist cause, joining units such as the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, the British Battalion, the Dabrowski Battalion, the Mackenzie-Papineau Battalion and the Naftali Botwin Company. Notable anti-fascists who worked internationally against Franco included: George Orwell (who fought in the POUM militia and wrote Homage to Catalonia about this experience), Ernest Hemingway (a supporter of the International Brigades who wrote For Whom the Bell Tolls about this experience), and radical journalist Martha Gellhorn.
Gandhi was influenced by the Christian anarchist, Leo Tolstoy:
“ The state evil is not the cause but the effect of social evil, just as the sea-waves are the effect not the cause of the storm. The only way of curing the disease is by removing the cause itself. ”
In Gandhi's view, violence is the source of social problems, and the state is the manifestation of this violence. Hence he concluded that "[t]hat state is perfect and non-violent where the people are governed the least. The nearest approach to purest anarchy would be a democracy based on nonviolence."[1] For Gandhi, the way to achieve such a state of total nonviolence (ahimsa) was changing of the people's minds rather than changing the state which governs people. Self-governance (swaraj) is the principle behind his theory of satyagraha. This swaraj starts from the individual, then moves outward to the village level, and then to the national level; the basic principle is the moral autonomy of the individual is above all other considerations.[1]
Gandhi’s admiration for collective liberation started from the very anarchic notion of individualism. According to Gandhi, the conscience of the individual is the only legitimate form of government. Gandhi averred that "Swaraj will be an absurdity if individuals have to surrender their judgment to a majority." He opined that a single good opinion is far better and beneficial than that of the majority of the population if the majority opinion is unsound. Due to this swaraj individualism, he rejected both parliamentary politics and their instrument of legitimization, political parties. According to swaraj individualism the notion that the individual exists for the good of the larger organization had to be discarded in favor of the notion that the larger organization exists for the good of the individual, and one must always be free to leave and to dissent.[1] Gandhi also considered Leo Tolstoy's book, The Kingdom of God is Within You, a book about practical anarchist organization, as the text to have the most influence in his life.[11]
Pierre-Joseph Proudhon was the first self-proclaimed anarchist in the politically modern sense. His book, What is Property? should be required reading. He proclaimed that "anarchy is theft!" referring to the capitalists owning the means of production. He also stated that “it is liberty that is the mother, not the daughter, of order.”
You can read his Wikipedia page for yourself and, perhaps, understand the anarchist philosophy.
Henry David Thoreau, while never claiming anarchism for himself, did make statements declaring his distrust of the state. Anarchists of all currents cite him as an influence:
Walt Whitman American poet (1819-1892)
Paris Communards
to meet social needs (canteens and first aid stations, for example) continued to thrive and cooperate with the Commune.[citation needed]
Paris, May 29, 1871
At the same time, these local assemblies pursued their own goals, usually under the direction of local workers. Despite the formal reformism of the Commune council, the composition of the Commune as a whole was much more revolutionary. Revolutionary factions included Proudhonists (an early form of moderate anarchism), members of the international socialists, Blanquists, and more libertarian republicans. The Paris Commune has been celebrated by anarchists and Marxists ever since then, due to the variety of political undercurrents, the high degree of workers' control, and the remarkable co-operation among different revolutionists.[citation needed]
For example, in the third arrondissement, school materials were provided free, three parochial schools were "laicised", and an orphanage was established. In the twentieth arrondissement, schoolchildren were provided with free clothing and food. There were many similar examples, but a vital ingredient in the Commune's relative success, at this stage, was the initiative shown by ordinary workers who managed to take on the responsibilities of the administrators and specialists who had been removed by Thiers.
Prince Peter Kropotkin was a self-proclaimed anarchist-communist who wrote The Conquest of Bread and Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution (my personal favorite). Both books are extremely influential to anarchists of all stripes.
From Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution:
— Peter Kropotkin, Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution (1902), Conclusion.
Some folks you may have not known were anarchists (or practices anarchist ideas):
Leo Tolstoy
Alexander Berkman
Noam Chomsky
Emma Goldman
Benjamin Tucker
Mikhail Bakunin
Buenaventura Durruti
Ferdinando Nicola Sacco
Bartolomeo Vanzetti
Nestor Makhno
William Godwin
Murray Bookchin
Daniel Guerin
Voltairine de Cleyre
Paul Goodman
The Haymarket Martyrs (You know, those guys that helped bring us the eight hour workday and weekends off!)
Industrial Workers of the World
George Woodcock
Emile Armand
Paul Avrich
Jello Biafra
Kevin Carson
Lev Chernyi
Alexander Cockburn
Dorothy Day
Uri Gordon
Big Bill Haywood
The English Levellers
Abbie Hoffman
Mother Jones
Franz Kafka
Lao Tzu
Zapatista Movement
Rage Against the Machine
Josiah Warren
Albert Parsons
Lucy Parsons
Rudolph Rocker
Mary Shelley
August Spies
Lysander Spooner
Joe Sturmmer
Hunter S. Thompson
Oscar Wilde
Emiliano Zapata
Subcommandant Marcos
So, instead of going "Pffffffft" at something you clearly have no clue about, why don't you just educate yourself? I did this the last time we had this exchange.
I'll start you off since I'm feeling generous:
Anarchism: From Theory to Practice by Daniel Guerin
Do read it.
First, let's make this clear, two people out of the list I provided didn't necessarily refer to themselves as anarchists (Thoreau and Whitman) in the modern political sense. Secondly, they espoused ideas that are anarchist in nature (which I've quoted). Many "modern" anarchists look to them as their influence. Jesus was a Jew who now influences Christians. Jesus, though, was not a Christian. Same with Karl Marx; Marxists are influenced by Marx, and they use his writings and ideas to form their political/social philosophy, yet, Marx never referred to himself as a Marxist.
Zeno, the ancient Greek, lived and taught anarchist ideas, yet he never referred to himself as an anarchist (at least, not that I know of, but I could be wrong).
But let's get back to something besides your red herring. You took approximately 15 seconds to respond to a post about something you clearly don't know about, and then have the audacity to tell me that I didn't list anyone who actually called themselves anarchists? How do you know if you didn't even read the post, which you've admitted to?
Is this what you call debate? The exchange of ideas? Is it that I'm just to accept what you say, but when you ask me for sources, which took me quite a bit of time (you know, doing your work for you), you dismiss it?
Are you embarrassed?
Pffttttt!
By the way:
AnarchistUnderground is
<------------- that way. We're always on the Left!
Toodles.
ignore it and it might go away. I know the resistance to not *ignore* is overwhelming but I've only got 4 on my list and my time spent here is +100 times more pleasant.
Sometimes it's like being behind 45 mph in the 70 mph lane with the blinker on and a box of tissues in the rear window with a bunch of stuffed animals lined up on both sides.
but I find less bruises this way.
Cheers!
-p
Peace.
It's in my name!
Yes, one snippet - again cherry-picked. I'm sure you didn't read the whole page.
I'm really glad you linked to History of Anarchism. Come on in, and let's see what else it has to say:
<snip>
While he opposed communism and favoured remuneration for labour, he also opposed capitalist wage labour (i.e. profiting from someone else's labour).[43] He also opposed rent, interest, and profit. He supported an economic system called mutualism. He urged workers "to form themselves into democratic societies, with equal conditions for all members, on pain of a relapse into feudalism." Under capitalism, he argued, employees are "subordinated, exploited" and their "permanent condition is one of obedience," a "slave." Proudhon's ideas were influential within French working class movements, and his followers were active in the Revolution of 1848 in France as well as the Paris Commune of 1871. Anarcho-communists, such as Kropotkin, later disagreed with Proudhon for his support of "private property" in the products of labour (i.e. wages, or "remuneration for work done"
rather than free distribution of the products of labour.[44]
<snip>
The Paris Commune was a government that briefly ruled Paris from 18 March (more formally, from 28 March) to 28 May 1871. The Commune was the result of an uprising in Paris after France was defeated in the Franco-Prussian War. Anarchists participated actively in the establishment of the Paris Commune. They included "Louise Michel, the Reclus brothers , and Eugene Varlin (the latter murdered in the repression afterwards). As for the reforms initiated by the Commune, suchas the re-opening of workplaces as co-operatives, anarchists can see their ideas of associated labour beginning to be realised...Moreover, the Commune's ideas on federation obviously reflected the influence of Proudhon on French radical ideas. Indeed, the Commune's vision of a communal France based on a federation of delegates bound by imperative mandates issued by their electors and subject to recall at any moment echoes Bakunin's and Proudhon's ideas (Proudhon, like Bakunin, had argued in favour of the "implementation of the binding mandate" in 1848...and for federation of communes). Thus both economically and politically the Paris Commune was heavily influenced by anarchist ideas.[58]". George Woodcock manifests that "a notable contribution to the activities of the Commune and particularly to the organization of public services was made by members of various anarchist factions, including the mutualists Courbet, Longuet, and Vermorel, the libertarian collectivists Varlin, Malon, and Lefrangais, and the bakuninists Elie and Elisée Reclus and Louise Michel."[56]
Louise Michel was an important anarchist participant in the Paris Commune. Initially she workerd as an ambulance woman, treating those injured on the barricades. During the Siege of Paris she untiringly preached resistance to the Prussians. On the establishment of the Commune, she joined the National Guard. She offered to shoot Thiers, and suggested the destruction of Paris by way of vengeance for its surrender.
In December 1871, she was brought before the 6th council of war, charged with offences including trying to overthrow the government, encouraging citizens to arm themselves, and herself using weapons and wearing a military uniform. Defiantly, she vowed to never renounce the Commune, and dared the judges to sentence her to death.[59] Reportedly, Michel told the court, "Since it seems that every heart that beats for freedom has no right to anything but a little slug of lead, I demand my share. If you let me live, I shall never cease to cry for vengeance."[60]
Following the 1871 Paris Commune, the anarchist movement, as the whole of the workers' movement, was decapitated and deeply affected for years.
<snip>
The anti-authoritarian sections of the First International were the precursors of the anarcho-syndicalists, seeking to "replace the privilege and authority of the State" with the "free and spontaneous organization of labor."[89] In 1886, the Federation of Organized Trades and Labor Unions (FOTLU) of the United States and Canada unanimously set 1 May 1886, as the date by which the eight-hour work day would become standard.[90]
A sympathetic engraving by Walter Crane of the executed "Anarchists of Chicago" after the Haymarket affair. The Haymarket affair is generally considered the most significant event for the origin of international May Day observances
In response, unions across the United States prepared a general strike in support of the event.[90] On 3 May, in Chicago, a fight broke out when strikebreakers attempted to cross the picket line, and two workers died when police opened fire upon the crowd.[91] The next day, 4 May, anarchists staged a rally at Chicago's Haymarket Square.[92] A bomb was thrown by an unknown party near the conclusion of the rally, killing an officer.[93] In the ensuing panic, police opened fire on the crowd and each other.[94] Seven police officers and at least four workers were killed.[95] Eight anarchists directly and indirectly related to the organisers of the rally were arrested and charged with the murder of the deceased officer. The men became international political celebrities among the labour movement. Four of the men were executed and a fifth committed suicide prior to his own execution. The incident became known as the Haymarket affair, and was a setback for the labour movement and the struggle for the eight-hour day. In 1890 a second attempt, this time international in scope, to organise for the eight-hour day was made.The event also had the secondary purpose of memorializing workers killed as a result of the Haymarket affair.[96] Although it had initially been conceived as a once-off event, by the following year the celebration of International Workers' Day on May Day had become firmly established as an international worker's holiday.[90]
I'm most happy that you brought up that link! I can't thank you enough. There's much more, if you are so inclined to read it, but I know you're opposed to reading, so ...
How's that Plato's Republic dissertation coming along?
The consistent anarchist … should be a socialist, but a socialist of a particular sort. He will not only oppose alienated and specialized labor and look forward to the appropriation of capital by the whole body of workers, but he will also insist that this appropriation be direct, not exercised by some elite force acting in the name of the proletariat. ~ Noam Chomsky
It sucks, eh?
someone being purposefully ignorant of facts. They DO NOT want the truth. They would choke on it. You're right, the one you're 'debating' is very wrong. Ignore that one.
.... Democratic Underground was kind enough to let us have our own sub-forum, one which I host and am a member of.
It's called Socialist Progressives. You're welcome to read the material and become a member.
So, uh, yeah, Democratic Underground does accept us anarchists, as the Terms of Service, which I've shown you at least three times, documents.
Happy Hunting!
This could be entertaining 
... something tells me he/she won't touch that.
That's a total non sequitur. You certainly didn't reply to my post.
Are you going to answer about Plato's Republic or not? If you can't, you've already made a fool out of yourself already, what's one more post?
Oh, in case you missed it, I host and am a member of the Socialist Progressives sub-forum. You are more than welcome to join, if you'd like.
By the way, anarchists, of all stripes, from the individualists to the communists, advocate social equality.
Be realistic! Demand the impossible! ~ 1968 Paris Anarchist Slogan
You have not done any of these:
1) Written a dissertation on Plato's Republic using a dictionary definition, or
2) Explained why you haven't written a dissertation of Plato's Republic, or
3) Admitted that describing a complex philosophy as complex as Plato's or of anarchism is impossible using a couple of sentences from the dictionary.
Are you going to join our Socialist Progressives forum?
"Anarchism means voluntary co-operation instead of forced participation. It means harmony and order in place of interference and disorder." ~ Alexander Berkman
There's been a long disagreement regarding tactics amongst anarchists since day one.
You didn't discover a new comet or anything.
It was fun. I appreciate you kicking my thread.
You're welcome do what you see fit. You're free to do so. You'll be an anarchist yet.
Thank you so much for your kind compliment.
It means a lot.
You know, I wanted to study philosophy in Colledge but couldn't swing that many credits for a minor. If only I'd known that I could have learned philosophy simply by reading the definition I could have read it,
submitted this as my dissertation:
fəˈläsəfē/
noun
1.
the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, esp. when considered as an academic discipline.
Then demanded my PHD!
Now that you have enlightened me, I have several PHD's to acquire, should only take a day or so.... gotta run!
It's all here in this very thread, but thanks for showing your deceitful tactic once more.
Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
"Attempted coup."
Quite possibly the funniest post in this thread. Thank you.
Good one!Just saying... 
It's a DU Coup! A DU Coup!
but I do?
and I am truly embarrassed by your willful ability to dismiss facts. I'm surprised at you and sad for you. 
RL
"If you DON'T want to bomb Syria, you must HATE FREEDOM!!!"
Matthew Ingratta...he is not famous but he is a teacher who was influenced by rage against the machine
ain't education wonderful.
and are just playing 'devil's advocate'. Right? Otherwise all I can do is shake my head at the education you had and evidently MISSED!!!! Thanks for providing me with my belly laugh for today.
And please be more liberally in your post, you just aren't liberally enough!
And here's to you:
Though, that could go under:
If we don't strike now, they may think they can get away with it!!!
But yes, the more the merrier.
You're for peace aren't you?
"I love lamp. I stand with lamp."
That's what I should have said.
is being compared to a female body part... 
RL
Don't let the fools stop you. for all you had to put up with on this good thread.
#13:
War expenditures are a good and desirable way to run-up the deficit.
Social programs and healthcare are a BAD way to run-up the deficit.
It's all so clear and simple.
I fuckin love you, man. 
Good luck with your coup!
There's not time to waste!
Much love to ya, bunnies!
Dont out me!!! Im embedded. 
We're good.
IT'S A COUP!
K&R
Can't reveal our positions!
