When people call the majority opposed to Syrian intervention....

[socialist_n_TN]

"war weary" or claim that their opposition is because they're "tired of war", this denigrates principled opposition to military intervention.

Yes, I am "war weary". It's hard NOT to be "tired of war" when all I've known for all my 60+ years is one war or another, all for nebulous reasons that boil down to imperialism and capitalist's profits. However, the reasons I've opposed ALL of those wars throughout my life is NOT because I'm a pacifist or because I'm "war weary". I've opposed all of those wars for reasons, real and logical that I've worked out and studied for myself. And even pacifists do not oppose the Syrian intervention because they're "war weary". They oppose because they are opposed to ALL wars.

So do NOT denigrate an anti-war stance by calling it something it's not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. What you are seeing is something confusing to elites

Give them a break. They never expected to have middle America go NYET to another war.

I think perhaps, Americans are starting to reject Empire. Saying that aloud...I mean poor babies in the bubble, what contractor will tip them to a good stock option.

[socialist_n_TN]

12. You and David_77 came up with the same general idea about why......

this meme is being floated now. I think you're both on to something.

And yes, I think Americans are beginning to wake up to imperialism. It's a start!

[leftstreet]

2. True, it's not as if people just need a vacation from war

then they'll return, refreshed, ready to embrace another one

I don't know where that 'weary' thing started

DURec

[socialist_n_TN]

9. I think it was a reaction to the vociferous resistance.......

to this particular military adventure by a Democratic president. They needed an excuse because this didn't go over so well with the public.

[leftstreet]

28. And maybe a greater truth behind the resistance

Dissatisfaction with this administration

[David__77]

3. The elites think that the masses are idiots.

And simply don't understand. It's nonsense. These idiots and social misfits who make their way into wonkdom have no real sense of the world.

[socialist_n_TN]

11. Yep, you and nadin are on to something with this.......

They have internalized the old paradigm of an American public that so stupid and so unaware that you can feed them bullshit and keep them in the dark and it will work to gin up the old jingoism any time they want.

Basically, they used the same stale one party line that W used as justification for the Iraq war thinking that the public would fall for it again. Now they're surprised that it didn't work, so they have to have some excuse and this "war weary" shit is what they've come up with.

[L0oniX]

58. When ya look at what gets watched the most on TV it's no wonder they think that. n/t

[HardTimes99]

4. I'm protest weary - been protesting off and on since Reagan. Going to

my first one ever against à Dem today.

[socialist_n_TN]

8. The only reason I'm not "protest weary" is because I'm now protesting.....

with an ultimate goal in mind. This merely a step on the road to socialist revolution.

[HardTimes99]

10. Good point. Always helps to take the 'long view,' I suppose. I'm more

concerned that U.S. imperialism be resisted, regardless of whether that imperialism is conducted under Republican or Democratic auspices.

[socialist_n_TN]

15. I think we all have to take the long view......

otherwise we will be subject to "protest fatigue". We can't expect any one protest or action to make the difference, although occasionally it will. IMO, we have to take the view that each protest and action on whatever front it is, whether labor issues, social issues, or now, imperialism issues, they are ALL part of the consciousness raising for the United States.

[HardTimes99]

17. If I thought I would see at least some smidgeon of social justice in my lifetime (e.g., Bush and

Kissinger on trial for war crimes, the 1% forced to relinquish some of its lucre, a meaningful attempt to stamp out childhood poverty once and for all), I wouldn't feel so friggin' fatigued. It's like I have to set my alarm clock every 4-8 years for yet another of these Republican fascists. So when a Dem overtly takes up the cause of imperialism, as is now the case, I'm tempted to just stop raising my voice and hang up my protestin' spurs for good.

[socialist_n_TN]

24. Well, I'm over 60, so I DEFINITELY don't expect to see it......

but that doesn't mean I'm going to quit trying. What the hell, it adds meaning to my declining years.

My optimistic self also remembers V.I. Lenin saying something along the lines of, "Sometimes years go by with nothing happening and then sometimes years go by in months." I think that means be ready for rapid changes in the situation AT ANY TIME.

[HardTimes99]

25. Props to you for the Lenin reference. Sometimes, as with Occupy, it seems like years can go by

in seconds even.

It does appear as if popular discontent (combined with a dose of butt-puckering realpolitik courtesy Mssr. Putin) is staying the hands of the imperialists somewhat, so I have not completely given up hope!

[MNBrewer]

19. We can hope.

It's the only thing that can save us.

[jwirr]

5. I add more to the phrase - "without any proof of what they are telling us".

[durablend]

6. Well, be glad

They're not calling us "dirty hippies" (yet)

[socialist_n_TN]

7. I'm sure that's coming. For me........

it won't be the first time. Although I never was a "hippie", I did share some surface characteristics with them. I guess my point is that I'm used to that particular slam.

[woofless]

36. I revel in it.

I need a t-shirt with DFH in big letters across the front.

[Starry Messenger]

13. I'm tired of being told we're too broke for public services.

I'm tired of reading shit here that defends cuts one week and then trumpets for war$ the next.

[socialist_n_TN]

21. Yep, I know you are Starry. So am I......

And I'm hoping that the type of logic that juxtaposes these two things is figured out and rejected by the American people. THAT's what I mean by consciousness raising. With every illogic of capitalist imperialism pointed out, the American publics bullshit meter rises. And that's a good thing.

[felix_numinous]

14. Not war weary, but hungry for JUSTICE

for the growing pile of stinking crimes never prosecuted! For having to endure witnessing violent punitive actions taken with NO TRIAL.

For the war criminals and profiteers, CEOs responsible for continuing ecocide who get to live in luxury while the people starve, pay astronomical amounts for health care, and are harassed and penalized for the most petty offences.

Practice saying it--> we want law and order, not this travesty of justice they call intervention. It is only the latest public relations attempt to put lipstick on this war pig and increasing police state. NO.

[polichick]

16. Yep, for all kinds of justice. Great that people are waking up...

and standing against it.

[markpkessinger]

18. Exactly so.

People may be opposed because they are opposed to all wars, or because they are opposed to THIS war because they think it is a really bad idea that will result in a lot of really bad, unintended consequences. But either way, people who are opposed all seem to have very solid reasons for their opposition. To chalk it up to being "war weary" trivializes it.

[tritsofme]

20. You confuse public agreement on this particular issue at this particular time

with a widespread ratification of your world view.

People oppose intervention in Syria for a variety of reasons, though I would consider "war weariness" the leading contributor, most are not opposed to all wars. Even though most oppose intervention, it is very far down on the priority list.

[socialist_n_TN]

22. I confuse nothing......

Whatever the reason for opposition to this intervention, to call it "war weariness" is bullshit and trivializes the reasons for opposition WHATEVER they are.

That said, I'm actually sure that some of the idiot Teabaggers oppose this intervention because Obama is for it. THAT is the ONLY reason that I consider more inane than the current meme being floated about.

[ymetca]

23. War weariness or war wariness?

Seems like more of the latter than the former to me.

And to say that the American public, most of whom have never been in a war, are "weary" of it, is kind of an affront to our veterans.

Of course the whole argument "to war or not to war" assumes we humans really have control over our collective behavior, which evidence indicates we clearly do not.

Finally, I don't see where Capitalism or Socialism lessens the possibility of war. Each assumes the elimination of the other would make things "work" better for us all. I'm thinking that the DNA intelligence running this planet life experiment has no interest in humans getting along. It is engineering us Giant Fighting Robots to achieve mass planetary escape velocity.

[HooptieWagon]

32. Yes, good point.

I think the past decade's development of social media, and the internet giving independant reporters an outlet, has given people the ability to cast a more critical eye on events. People now are simply not buying the lies...and the WH has seriously underestimated the public's current ability to detect bullshit. Regurgitating the old Iraq War propaganda exposed their flimsy argument.

[leftstreet]

30. Any 'weariness' is because we're already under siege

No jobs
Shit wages
No healthcare
Losing homes
Bankruptcies
States and Cities are going broke
Schools are underfunded
Social programs being gutted

Huh, maybe there's truth in the bullshit 'war weariness' after all

[mike_c]

26. I oppose war for imperialism and profit too....

AND I'm sick to death of all the war propaganda and militarism in the U.S. The MIC needs to be dismantled. Unfortunately, exporting terror has become the backbone of our economy. We have become utterly dependent upon exported violence and death, both economically and in our political institutions.

[MotherPetrie]

27. K&R

[WillyT]

29. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[Rebellious Republican]

31. Spot on socialist_n_TN !

K&R

[Jesus Malverde]

33. Interesting catch.

Weary implies tired, worn out, and is passive.

A public - angry, furious, disgusted by war and warmongers is active.

I think politicians are discovering the Mighty Wurlitzer is getting drowned out by alternate news sources and people getting rid of their TV's. Over two years in this house without TV.

[brooklynite]

34. ...and when people call those who reluctantly feel military action may be necessary...

"Chicken hawks" and "warmongers", it is equally derogatory. I appreciate the the fact that you are opposed to all wars; unfortunately the war started two years ago, and unless you are taking a principled stand as an isolationist, you can't look at the killing going on already and ignore what's happening.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

37. No, false equivalency.

A chickenhawk is a person who has no interest in having themselves or their relatives in the military but who calls for military action in an optional war or optional military strike.



The biggest chicken-hawks are public figures who avoided military service but loudly and enthusiastically call for military action. The smaller chicken-hawks who sound like the public figures but are not as well known.

[brooklynite]

38. But the phrase has been freely thrown around here...

...regardless of whether the support is enthusiastic or not (hint: it never is).

One could be equally critical of those opposing intervention in the face of Syrian Government oppression of its citizens, without being prepared to do anything about it themselves.

Personally, I appreciate the fact that this is a difficult situation with no easy answers, and I can respect the fact that other people have come to a different decision about what should be done; I just wish they could be equally respectful.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

39. It is comparatively rare for DUers to refer to chicken-hawks. If anyone has feelings that are hurt

being called chicken-hawks, that's good.

Maybe they will reform their ways.

For those who want another optional war (or say that another Pearl Harbor type air strike will not start a war), the solution is easy to understand. They should either drive themselves or a family member down to the local recruiter's office.

If you are sufficiently outraged in that you are supporting another optional war, call 1-888-550-ARMY (2769).

[Egalitarian Thug]

44. The people that want to profit from war don't participate in war. That's for the little people.

Then there's the overfed, undernourished, socially inept losers that think war is like TV, movies, and video games.

[brooklynite]

46. But of course, the Army won't be in the engagement...

Just like they weren't involved in Libya...

[AnotherMcIntosh]

49. Then you'll be safe in signing up.

[socialist_n_TN]

50. I didn't say I was opposed to all wars........

I said pacifists were opposed to all wars. I also said I wasn't a pacifist. Wars against fascism are OK by me. Also wars with the aim of assisting the working class to overthrow and defeat the capitalists are OK by me.

I oppose all imperialistic wars fought for the profit of the ownership class and the dictatorship of capital.

[brooklynite]

51. That's a lot of buzz words...

How do you feel about oppression of basic political freedom, even if the people aren't as economically enlightened as you are?

[socialist_n_TN]

53. Who's going to profit?......

In the near and the short term.

[Cleita]

35. I was born just before the US entered WWII.

My first memories were of war, of the knowledge that people were losing sons, of rations because of the war effort, of war orphans whose parents were killed and knowing that most of the adults' conversations were about the war. I was fortunate enough not to live in a war zone, but I heard the stories from European immigrants after the war, who were in the war zones, of the horrors they witnessed and the abuses and starvation that many of them had endured. To say I'm 'war weary' is not an exaggeration. However, my disdain for war, except as a last resort for DEFENSE, is not because of that. It's because of the destruction, not only of human lives, but other species' lives and the destruction of habitat and the environment and the fact that the end result is really to make a few fat cats rich. We have no business even doing a so-called small surgical strike in a country who has not attacked us. There are many other ways to intervene and none of them require weapons, just leadership and diplomacy.

[Rebellious Republican]

40. Well said, the voice of experience should teach us all. Thank you Cleita.....

I will leave you with this....

[Cleita]

42. Aw, thanks. I love those guys.

I once worked for a limo company that had them as clients. I never got to meet them, but other co-workers who did said they were as cool and nice off stage as they were on.

[Rebellious Republican]

48. They seem be those kind of people, your welcome.

[Jack Rabbit]

41. I don't think you are appreciating the dialectics of public opinion

Last edited Sun Sep 8, 2013, 12:31 AM - Edit history (1)

I'm opposed to intervention in Syria for basically the reasons you are. Wars have never been fought because some king was so bad in bed that couldn't keep his wife satisfied and she ran off with somebody else and so he went to war to get her back. Modern archeology is uncovering evidence that there was a Trojan War, but it was fought over control of trade routes. The Mycenaeans simply thought the Trojans were an unnecessary middle man by extracting tolls from Mycenaean ships that strayed too close to Troy on their way to the Dardanelles.

What would you have said to Menelaus if you were a the ruler of another Mycenaean city if he came to you with a proposal to go to war over Helen's unfaithfulness? I don't know about you, but I would have said something like, "Get fucked, buddy. I don't care if you've got Agamemnon at your back, that fatheaded brother of yours is too big for his breaches, anyway. If you can't control your wife, that's your problem. If Agamemnon wants to make it his business, that's his choice. I'll keep my army here, thank you, in order to keep that thuggish brother of yours from meddling in my business."

I would have said the same thing to Menelaus if I were the King of Ithaca or a peasant living just outside of Sparta, where Menelaus was King. Poor Helen! She had such poor taste in men. She marries Menelaus and runs away with Paris. What is it about her that she was attracted to such losers?

Now, a typical American of the 21st century spends all day working for the Man, comes home dead on his feet and doesn't want to be bothered with what's being reported on the evening news. Even if it's a real news program that leaves him relatively informed instead of some video fish wrap that tells more than he needs to know about Paris Hilton's driving record or Kim Kardashian's latest whirlwind romance, he'd rather watch Dancing with the Stars or America's Got Talent. Still, he's vaguely informed about what's going on and knows that the CEO of the corporation for which he works is scheming to steal his retirement fund, Bush lied the country into a war against Iraq and that Obama has been less than candid about the NSA spying on us and can't seem to appoint anybody to his economic team who isn't a Wall Street crook (speaking of Wall Street crooks, such a deal they have for the CEO concerning high yield investments of the proceeds he will receive from stealing our hero's retirement fund).

In short, he knows enough not to trust his boss or the government. So, what do you suppose his initial reaction to being told we have to bomb Syria in order to protect Syrian civilians from being murdered by their brutal dictator? "I'm war weary," perhaps? Or maybe, "I'm tired of being lied to by one President or another"?

Don't be so dismissive of this fellow. He's aware his been screwed over again and again and is being screwed over yet again, right now. That's what's different. Like you, I'm old enough to remember the Tonkin Gulf "incident." It took almost four years for most of the population to figure out that the war against Vietnam was justified by a pack of lies and that the rosy reports of progress in winning the hearts and minds of Vietnamese peasants were a pack of lies. In the case of Iraq, this fellow may have been apprehensive about the idea of going to war against Saddam, but in the end he trusted the Man and only regretted trusting him later. This time, he's asking questions even before the Man takes action. That's a good thing, don't you think? The man might get his way and bomb Syria, but he won't be able to do any more. Our hero is waking up. He doesn't want to hear all the hooey about humanitarian intervention or credibility or honor, Most of all, he doesn't want to see his children or grandchildren to fight an imperialist war that will not benefit him or them, but will only benefit his CEO who wants to steal our hero's retirement fund and the Wall Street bankers waiting to swindle the CEO out of that.

Our hero is waking up. This time, it really is morning in America.

[socialist_n_TN]

45. In the meta sense, we don't disagree. Or not very much.....

And I definitely agree that maybe the average American is starting to shake off some of his lethargy about politics. I was mostly referring to the meme that talks about it being the ONLY reason for the opposition to this intervention. And especially the only reason among politically aware people.

I hope you're right as to your last sentence and paragraph.

[Egalitarian Thug]

43. And don't forget that part about being right every time. That's important. K&R

[malaise]

47. K & R

for truth

[woo me with science]

52. K&R

[Lifelong Protester]

54. K & R

just weary of being lied to, having 'facts' brought out to make the point, and knowing at least enough to understand that there is some ulterior motive in any war that is not defending an attack. That motive is usually some profit.

[Enthusiast]

55. Cut entitlements, now! nt

[socialist_n_TN]

56. And as a followup, the Tennessean in an article today.....

used "war weary" in an article on the runup to intervention at least twice.

[ancianita]

57. For you, and it's not about weariness. "Soldiers of peace are just changing the game..."