Sorry, Apple, and Apple fans, but that's how it goes.

[Zalatix]

There's been a lot of dust being kicked up around here about Apple and its use of Foxconn to make its products. Lots of people have been hating on Apple, or at least pointing them out for heavy criticism. Then there are the Apple fans who say that this is unfair, because many other companies use Foxconn to make their products as well.

The problem here is, the criticisms of Apple are right. But so are the criticisms being aimed by Apple fans at all the other companies whose indentured Chinese workers have suicide nets installed to keep them from jumping to their deaths. So why are so many people singling out Apple?

Critics are singling out Apple because Apple is the most prominent company. That and they were the ones that got publicly shamed over it. Apple was the first one to get the Foxconn spotlight put on them and they became the poster corporation for offshoring to companies whose workers commit suicide under their crappy work conditions.

No, it's not fair. But the truth is, someone has to be made an example of. All companies that send their work overseas need to be highlighted and driven out of business if they won't return their jobs to America. These maddeningly arrogant and greedy corporations need to be put back in their place or put out of business and replaced by companies who hire workers in the country where they're selling to. All of them, not just Apple.

However some company has to be chosen to be made an example of. Sometimes it's the most egregious offender, which is probably NOT Apple. But sometimes it's the most prominent one, which probably fits Apple, if one goes by the company's net worth.

As for me, I prefer to approach the issue fairly. I want all companies that outsource to Foxconn to get humiliated and shamed, then boycotted and driven out of America. Make an example of all of them; and then make an example of everyone ELSE who outsources American jobs and who didn't get the message the first time around. So, for me, it ain't just about Apple.

[jillan]

1. That's just how it is. Some one, or in this case some company, is going to be made the example.

Maybe, Hopefully because Apple is so big and this could hurt them, other corporations will think twice before outsourcing to Foxconn.

[Zalatix]

2. Indeed, people need to focus their anger on one target.

If we boycotted EVERY company that sent jobs overseas right away, we would own almost nothing.

Thus, it's only practical to focus a boycott or other hostile action on one offender of this size and power.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. that might work if they were not already there

you own a 360? What about a Microsoft made oh mouse or keyboard?

Perhaps you are the proud owner of a Dell...

And so it goes.

[wilsonbooks]

3. The thing about Apple is that they don't need cheap labor to make a profit.

Some companies can argue that they could not stay in business without cheap

Labor. This is not true for Apple. Labor is a small portion of the cost of their product and they have such large margins

that they could easily manufacture them here. They choose to use slave labor to make slightly more money. Greed.

[xenie]

14. It's not about money. Apple has plenty.

Apple goes to Foxconn because of the slave labor. They can wake up workers in the middle of the night to get them to do last minute changes. Apple can't do that in the US.

Workers at Foxconn have debilitating injuries that eventually prevent them from working. Apple can't do that in the US because we have OSHA and laws protecting workers.

etc., etc...listen to Mike Daisey's trip to Foxconn at This American Life website.

[frazzled]

26. Actually, you're all mostly wrong

It's about the synergy there: as reported extensively, the main reason the tech companies, including Apple, work there, is because of the huge range of things that are produced at one site or nearby. If you run out of a rubber gasket, a screw, or a fitting, for example, you don't have to wait for a factory from far away to ship it. Everything is produced there in one place. That, the companies claim, is the biggest advantage (and savings) for them.

We have no such kinds of industrial systems here in the US (though Germany does, and it is why they are doing so well in manufacturing, even though their workers' costs are more than ours even). The question is: why don't we build these kinds of places here? I'd hate to work in one, but I guess it's the future of manufacturing.

[Ikonoklast]

30. That argument they use is total bullshit.

Having experience in supply chain solutions, just-in-time inventory, freight forwarding and expediting for multi-billion-dollar companies in this country, do you really believe that there is no way to keep manufacturers supplied in a timely manner with the appropriate volume and correct inventory of the parts necessary to keep assembly lines running?

If the assembler runs out of a gasket or screw I can tell you with absolute certainty that the idiots running inventory control at that factory need to be shit-canned, ASAP, as they don't know what they are doing.

When is that last time you read about an automotive assembly plant being shut down in this country due to an interruption caused by poor inventory control?

It doesn't happen, and those parts come in from all over North America to those various assembly plants. On time. Without fail.

If the Chinese run out of parts and have to wait until they get more shipped in from a supplier, they have a horrible supply chain problem and a management that doesn't figure in lead times and production schedules.

Now, I will say this about one reason the Chinese cluster parts suppliers so near to the final assembly site; you just can't ship parts internally across China with any sort of speed comparable to the movement of freight in this country, you are almost forced to have your parts suppliers as close as possible in order to remain functioning.

[WilliamPitt]

32. You said "synergy."

[Jakes Progress]

16. Evidence of short term memory.

At one time Apple was produced in the US. American Made. When it was, everyone jumped on them because of how expensive Macs were. They decried the greedy Apple for charging so much. Now Apples are made overseas just like every single computer and phone and reading device and the price got down. Now people complain about nasty Apple. They do that complaining from a computer that was made under exactly the same conditions that they are complaining about Apple for. Lots of hypocrisy here.

I use Apple products. I want them to improve the working conditions of their suppliers. I have told them so in multiple emails. How many emails have you sent to the manufacturer of whatever device you have? They are guilty of the same greed that you complain about with Apple.

By the way. Your claims about margins and being manufactured in the US are bogus. If you disagree, feel free to post some actual numbers and sources.

[Pholus]

19. Hey, who ever said taking the high road is easy.

My support for Apple left when they left. The only reason I didn't buy one of their US made computers was because I was a student and couldn't afford it though it was on the "to-do" list. After they left and the prices didn't change that much I though well screw that I'll buy the lower margin items. Then I discovered the number of cast-offs that consumerism was creating and their very reasonable secondhand price (as in, please take it away and it's yours or I'll just throw it away) and found that my computing needs have been free for years...

You've got the right idea so I don't think we're in disagreement here. We want the conditions to be better. But it's only $7 a phone if Apple wanted to dictate to foxconn that their employees should be worked 50% less -- which would be a 40 hour week. 80 hours a week, facilitated by on-campus dorms. Personally, I couldn't sleep at night if my paycheck was in any way connected to that. It's just immoral.

By the way, while I've definitely poked at some of the more clueless on their brand worship but I have no personal issues with a person making a choice about what works best for their computing needs. If Apple works for you, do it. But, understand why Apple is the target here. Nike was not the source of all sweatshop problems and if you believe the FLA has any credibility at all on the issue it was because people pressured the industry leader Nike, not the industry as a whole because they were all guilty. One of the risks of being successful is that you become the poster child.

As far as data on the margins, I have been using this month-old nytimes piece to work it through

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

I think the biggest disappointment for me is the realization that it isn't the difference between "can't make it here" and "can," but instead the difference between (using the word "hundreds" plural to describe the profit margin as does the article) obscenely and merely wildly profitable.

[Jakes Progress]

22. More "common wisdom"

Apples prices aren't higher. Outfit any device with the same features and it will cost the same. I've priced them for a dozen companies. You toss out the loss leader package in the Dell or HP or Sony and fit it up the same as a comp Mac and the price difference is negligible.

And you are the one who needs to understand why Apple is the target. Apple hate. Using Apple as a target actually lessens the chance that there will be changes in the labor sector. It give a warm fuzzy to the Apple haters who are using devices made the same way. The only thing that will make a difference is if people begin boycotting tech altogether. Then buy, at the much higher cost, a device made by a company that enforces rules or makes them here. I'm using a four year old phone and a seven year old computer. I have the wherewithal to buy current tech, but eschew doing so because there is no alternative.

It's the same thing in many walks of our capitalistic world. We make decisions that go against our principles in small ways every day. Maybe we pick up some bread in 10 minutes at the WalMart instead of going without until the Week-end farmer's market. We go ahead an eat a hamburger though we've seen those photos of corporate feedlot practices. There are grass fed alternatives, but they cost more and take more effort. Maybe we get a small suv instead of a car that does better mileage. Maybe we drive to work instead of taking a bus because it is a pain to stand out there in the cold waiting for the public transit.

Having a big old bad guy to hate and avoid only dodges the issue. If you want to change the labor conditions for foreign workers or promote USA union made goods, you have to deal with all of them - not just the one in the spotlight.

And you can rid yourself of your "biggest disappointment". Your understanding of manufacturing needs and numbers is without any substantiation. The last decent estimate I saw of how much a USA mad I-Mac would cost was near seven grand. There is a great deal more than labor costs involved. Infrastructure and skilled labor availability. China has made a point of producing engineers and roads and connecting transport and compacting suppliers while our country has dropped those things from its agenda.

Good motives. But targeting Apple is only a cheap stunt that won't affect a damn thing. Will actually exacerbate the problem. Do keep up the drumbeat for change with whatever company you support with your purchases. But if you aren't an Apple customer, your opinion means nothing to them. Fuss at the people you are giving money to.

[Pholus]

27. Targeting Apple is just a cheap stunt? You've just agreed with me that the FLA is a sham then.

You've made it clear that targeting *one* company like Apple is "a cheap stunt that won't affect a damn thing."

My history says that similar single-company targeting in past made progress, if you want to count the FLA as progress.

http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/99/NIKE-Inc.html

We can still both be right, but that is only if the FLA is itself basically a cheap stunt... I guess from everything I've read I can agree with that. But in that case why this constant stream of validation-seeking "the FLA says Apple is just peachy" threads from the boosters then? It came from an effort that "won't affect a damn thing" after all. Get the meme straight!

To continue the discussion, China built those engineers and roads because they knew our business class was ready to sell out for a higher percentage. Those facilities rose wholesale from the countryside because there was a preexisting market for them -- you know, our sociopathic business leaders wanting "cheap labor" -- pillars of the western world just like Mr. Jobs. Don't insult either of us by saying China's development was simply serendipity that popped out of the void that THEN presented a temptation for Apple. It took a concerted effort by Apple to move their jobs offshore so it's disingenous to try to pretend it's impossible to reverse the situation. It's merely not as profitable. Of course, I figure you're proud of all that cash that Apple can't seem to spend. I see it as the evidence that this was never about survival, it was about greed and "cheap labor." As the 800 lb gorilla in the room I hope I'm not hurting Apple's poor widdle feelings by pointing that out.

I pay attention and I know who does and who does not care for the interests of my socioeconomic class. I make it a personal crusade to refrain from doing business with those whose interests lie elsewhere whenever I can. Your assertion that if I don't pay I cannot voice an opinion is frankly bullshit. I can say whatever the hell I want, thank you.

As far as similar prices I will disagree. Perhaps for a top-end box, but most people are apparently too wowed by glitzy advertising to understand what their computer needs actually are and for most people it's on the low end. Hell I used to make real nice money on the side as a small business computing consultant for a few years. My schtick? Wait for Dell, Gateway, Compaq, HP or APPLE to quote the client with all the upsells, take the client out for coffee and have them describe that they really wanted -- 95% of the time it was a computer to run quickbooks, a word processer, an email client and a web browser. And they'd be holding this multi-kilobuck quote and you could see them worrying about how they could make it happen. I'd show them a $300-$500 PC from the SAME company (except Apple, mind you), buy it, deliver it, configure it and help them get used to running with it. $200 a pop. Never once had an uphappy client and never advertised. It was word of mouth. Had waiting lists even. And anyway, unlike Apple, the money I made from that stayed in the US. I presume the money I saved the clients did to.

My thoughts on business: A profitable business provides a quality product. A wildly profitable business usually is ripping someone off.

[Jakes Progress]

28. Play your games.

Pretend what you like.

I never said Apple was just peachy. But you seem to like taking two sides at once.

So play on.

[Pholus]

33. You're right. I thought I started neutral but I have BECOME a "hater."

Last edited Fri Mar 2, 2012, 10:31 AM - Edit history (1)

Apple is wrong on this. But I have hopes that this might change. However,
all in all, yes I think I really don't like Apple after having thought long and
hard about this for a few weeks now. One of the major factors was that
too many people are waaaaay too invested in telling me how wonderful they are and
how the warts are not warts and even if they were (not that they're implying
that cause they're not so shut up) everybody does it so everything is fine.

So, I guess I've evolved towards being quite negative towards Apple. I see
yet another multinational corporation acting just like any multinational does
but with a chorus of very strong advocates who get offended at the very
notion that this might be true. Then these people bandy about the term "hater"
because OBVIOUSLY the stated problem has nothing to do with the actual issue --
"haters" as I understand it are just envious that Steve Jobs was such a visionary
and made a revolutionary and superior product line that "just works"
and gets you to "think different."

So, I officially accept being classed as a "hater" although I will assert
that my status there is an evolution, not a starting place. Now that this
has devolved into team sports you should tell me what your team name
is so I don't use the offensive names I'm thinking up right now.

Finally, accusations of game playing usually are an indication that more
substantial comebacks related to the argument at hand are not readily available.

[Jakes Progress]

37. This thread wasn't supposed to be the inane

and pointless "Mac Battle".

You can like or not like what you want. If you have devolved into a "hater", then you can join the hipsters and all the other "independent" thinkers in using wannabe devices. Apple does a good job of research and development for so many companies to copy that you have a plethora of cheaply made pretenders to play with.

This thread was supposed to be about the abusive working conditions in tech plants in Asia. The PC/Mac game is pointless. My point was that Apple is no more at fault than any other tech providing company and that when the haters (your new team) jump up and down about the Apple bogey man, they are just playing the game invented by Apple competitors so they can feel good about themselves. The hollering and grandstanding don't do anything about the problem.

I use Apple stuff. I have told Apple I will not be upgrading my hardware until something more substantial is done to ameliorate the labor conditions with their suppliers. Since I have been doing said hardware upgrades with Apple since 1985, I believe that my protests will have more weight than "haters" who wouldn't be buying any products from them anyway. Your yelling "Apple is wrong" won't do anything for the workers in China. Maybe it will help you feel good about yourself. But unless you are actually protesting to the companies you support, you are verging toward the hypocritical. Of course, I would have to apologize if those $200 dollar shit boxes you foisted off on companies for years were all made by union workers here is the good old USA. I'm sure they were since you seem to think that is what Apple should do.

I myself made money some time back by coming into fix the poor clients of the cheap things that some simple minded bean counter had purchased when he dealt with those who convinced him to buy the $200 boxes. They had not upgrade path, they wouldn't run new versions of software, and there was no support for the crap that was shipped. I watched lots of those boxes tossed in the dumpsters a year after the bean man "saved" the company all that money.

You want substance? Then address the issue of the companies your support using the same suppliers and practices that you abhor in Apple. Jumping on the "hater" wagon is just wanting to be one of the crowd. A little thought and personal action would serve the cause you espouse better.

[Pholus]

39. Oooooh, such a good try, but not quite.

Points for the attempted barb about the cheap computers. It would seem like a good tactic but frankly I still help most of the same people -- funny how when trust is built you keep getting emails with new questions. I'm pretty sure you didn't ride in oh-so-gallantly on your big white horse to clean up my mess. Well, maybe you did -- but it was in your own mind as you frantically tried to think of some clever retort.

But for the record let me turn your own Cult's arguments against you. Apple sells mega-shitloads of stuff these days and a tiny, tiny fraction of it is currently desktop computing. How do I know? The last cultist I argued with left with their (for them) clever one-off: "well enjoy your Apple-free life but since they're selling so many units who cares what you think." They made a point you've apprently not THOUGHT about as you took your oh-so-substantive personal action. Given Apple's sales, do you honestly think they actually gave a shit as you gave them your what-for? Your words weren't even on the call-center script so if anything the worker was just happy they could get up from the screen and take a bathroom break while vaguely agreeing with you once in a while.

Besides, Apple knows EXACTLY how to keep you coming back through the mysteries of their business model. Come this summer or next fall all they have to do is make sure that you need some new hardware feature to get the latest and greatest from the "App store" and you'll be crawling right back there no matter how tough you're talking right now. You know it, and I know it and they sure as hell know it. Besides, even if you didn't, plenty of other suckers will and their money has the same color as yours. You may have bought since 1985, but what have you done for them lately? That's pretty much what they're thinking.

However, it is kind of touching that you believe that a "cheap labor" company like Apple would change their business practices for one customer who based on their earliest purchase date is probably good for three more sales, max.

Finally, I don't know what it is with the Cult of Apple but they tend to rank really low in reading comprehension. Maybe its cause they have Siri TELLING them everthing instead of actually exercising their visual cortex and they can't imagine someone who can use a computer without being brand concious. Read post #19 again to understand which companies I support. You might be a proud member of "Team Apple" but I'm merely a member of "Team Landfill" I'd call their reps, but I can't find the number.

Besides I decided to embrace the term hater merely because it is a term typically thrown out by people who can no longer think of a working debate angle.

[xenie]

21. Made in U.S.A. not more expensive--Apple not so good any more

I have an unlocked Nokia smart phone. It has better specs than iPhone, better reception, better camera, can use multiple SIMs, and has unlimited memory with its card slot. Retail price at ~$650 is $250 less than Apple's 32GB iPhone. I bought the Nokia phone without contract.

My phone is made in Finland, as are many, but not all, of their phones. iPhone is made in China. Factory workers in Finland make a lot more than workers in the US, yet this popular phone is cheaper than iPhone where it's widely available outside the US.

I not only use Apple products, I used to work for Apple. Their pricing is not based on cost of production plus R&D, marketing, shipping, etc. with a somewhat set percentage profit margin. It's based on what they think customers are willing to pay, no matter how much.

I may pay more for a MacBook Pro, but seriously consider getting a PC and hacking it into a Hackintosh, or simply using--ugh--Windows. Why? I'm an artist. I do commercial video, advertising, magazine layouts. Apple broke OS X and both the software and hardware that creative professionals depend on most to favor consumers rather than creators. I will NEVER buy another sealed, disposable iMac--biggest purchase mistake.

Apple's made-in-China hardware is sealed with either adhesives or proprietary screws, while my Nokia [and peecees] can be easily opened and repaired. Apple's arrogance is at an all time high, while the utility of its products is declining rapidly for its most loyal--soon to be former--customers.

Yes, Apple could make its products in the United States, but our workers are protected by some health and safety laws, also a 40 hour work week with paid overtime. Unfortunately, Steve Jobs was vehemently anti-union, due to his complete ignorance of unions. Fortunately he's not around to keep production out of the U.S. Will his hand picked successors follow his U.S.-hostile attitude? I hope not, but let's wait and see.

It may be too late. Creative professionals I know or have read comments from will not be "downgrading" to OS X Lion [10.7] or Mountain Lion [10.8].

[Jakes Progress]

24. You are operating on bad information.

Your ideas about how much it costs to make things here and how wonderful nokia is and how Macs work are just naive and poorly informed.

Go ahead an let yourself be distracted with the same old Apple hate. It takes the pressure off of everyone else. If you aren't an Apple customer, why should they give a damn about your opinion. What truly green and socially conscious company will you purchase your PC from? HP? Sony? Or maybe the wonderfully enlightened stuff from Michael Dull.

You are kidding yourself and falling for the propaganda put out by Apple's competitors. They use the same practices as Apple but get you to fuss about their competitor as they rake in your cash. Stop using tech until they do better. That would actually do something. A decent congress that would pass the laws that would not let products made this way would be better. Hitting on Apple is just a cheap way to pretend that you are doing something.

And by the way. Nokia is a Finnish company. They do have factories in Finland. But they manufacture most of their products in China. They used to have several US locations, but began shutting them down some year ago. Our area lost 3,000 jobs when they pulled out. Word was that the workers there were thinking of a union effort. Nokia dropped them in six months.

Go ahead and limit your productivity and select a wannabe product. But don't kid yourself that it is a move that will help anyone but the companies that fooled you.

[Zalatix]

42. His ideas on how much it costs to make things here are correct. YOU are uninformed.

And the topic of this thread is that Apple is far from the only company deserving of being slammed.

BTW Congress IS passing laws - they just sent a new tariff/duty law against China to President Obama's desk.

In short: you need to get informed before you call others uninformed.

[derby378]

4. Allstate has been outsourcing to a company called Genpact in New Delhi

Heard they just laid off a lot of their American workers recently. Met Life has also outsourced work to Genpact as well.

[joshcryer]

5. You make an example of the worst offenders. Which is more important, the bankers, or the...

...secretaries?

[uberblonde]

6. Nope.

Apple is the company sitting on a giant mountain of cash. Of all the computer manufacturers, Apple is making the largest profit. They could afford to bring those jobs back to the U.S.

At least the P.C. manufacturers kept prices low enough to make computers accessible to a lot more poor people. You really can't say that about Apple. There's no moral argument for squeezing manufacturing costs AND retail customers.

[joshcryer]

8. The most odius thing? Every evil news story about Apple? Stocks go up.

Child labor? Stocks go up.

[Pholus]

20. As the outsourcing wave started that started too.

Too bad we're the bleeding hearts. It's easier when your moral code is "get some...."

[AnotherDreamWeaver]

7. I thought you were going to mention their vulnerability now

Flashback.G is the first in the malware family to infect Macs using vulnerabilities.

http://www.infoworld.com/d/security/new-mac-malware-exploits-java-bugs-steals-passwords-187433?source=IFWNLE_nlt_wrapup_2012-02-27

[Zalatix]

9. That's kinda petty. Windows has been vulnerable forever. Linux is also potentially vulnerable.

[hobbit709]

35. ANY computer that connects to the outside world is vulnerable.

Apple and Linux have been lucky that they don't have big enough market share to be targeted by the people that get their jollies writing viruses.
At least Windoze users know about it and have an inkling about protection, but the smugness among the others will bite them big one day.
And a Mac can be a carrier for viruses if it gets an infected email file and forwards it to a Windows user.
90% of all virus infections are caused by the ID ten T error in the first place.

[saras]

10. If there's so many more PCs than Macs, how come Apple is so prominent?

It's not like there's ANY company in China, ANYWHERE, that has working conditions that a sensible Westerner, say a German or Finn, would think reasonable. Foxconn is normal, even if some particulars vary from company to company.

[Zalatix]

11. Apple is a big player in the mp3 player market, the tablet market and the cell phone market.

They backed out of the PC market and took on other tech sectors.

[Art_from_Ark]

12. Apple didn't back out of the PC market

The company sold a million more Macs in Q4 2011 than it did in Q4 2010. And it had the 3rd-largest US market share of computer sales in 3Q 2011.

http://betanews.com/2011/10/12/apple-and-lenovo-make-shocking-q3-pc-sales-gains/

[jeff47]

13. The problem is by attacking Apple you're attacking the company that's doing the best

Apple's contract with Foxconn requires better conditions than everyone else using Foxconn.

Shouldn't your goal be to get the worst offenders to be better, instead of going after the "best" one?

What you're doing is demonstrating to Dell, HP, Microsoft and all the others that even if you go through the effort Apple went through to improve conditions, the public won't stop going after you. So might as well not bother trying to improve conditions.

And btw:

Critics are singling out Apple because Apple is the most prominent company.

I believe there's a Mr. Gates who might dispute this assertion. You're probably using his software right now, after all, 90% of computer do.

[xenie]

15. Hardware vs software -- Apple's done us wrong

No matter how poorly Microsoft has acted over the years, Microsoft is primarily a software company, with some hardware. They outsource, but nothing compared to Apple, a company that used to be proud of production in the United States.

Apple is almost entirely a hardware company that incidentally has software, mostly designed to work primarily on their hardware--desktop, portable, moblle. Apple has moved almost all production 'offshore' and, according to Steve Jobs, has no intention of ever bringing it back to the US.

Not only that, Apple wants you to buy the outside of their products, but have sealed them because they don't want you to 'own' the inside. Their new operating system hides both the Free BSD Unix underpinnings, AND the user libraries that contain the user's--not the owner's--preferences. They are pressuring software developers to sell third party software only in Apple's software store which is only available through downloads, even though much of the US doesn't have broadband fast enough for those downloads.

[jeff47]

18. Microsoft's hardware is built by Foxconn

And they're much larger than Apple. Calling Apple "The biggest company" is wrong.

Also, you may want to back away from the conspiracy theories.

Apple wants you to buy the outside of their products, but have sealed them because they don't want you to 'own' the inside.

Do I need to give you links to the sites that explain how to open MacBooks, iMacs and so on? And how often do you open your TV?

Their new operating system hides both the Free BSD Unix underpinnings

Until you open a terminal window. You are claiming this Linux box I'm using is "hiding the underpinnings" because X doesn't do everything I can do at a terminal.

AND the user libraries that contain the user's--not the owner's--preferences

They're doing such a good job that there's a public API to access those preferences, as well as documentation of where the files are stored.

They are pressuring software developers to sell third party software only in Apple's software store which is only available through downloads, even though much of the US doesn't have broadband fast enough for those downloads.

So the evil thing here is Apple is seeking a piece of the application market? You do realize Microsoft set up a store and failed? You do realize Google's store isn't free to app developers?

And you do realize that broadband penetration in the United States is more than 40% of households? That doesn't mean it's only available to 40%, it means 40% are already buying it.

[xenie]

23. Microsoft has less software than Apple

Quote: "Do I need to give you links to the sites that explain how to open MacBooks, iMacs and so on? And how often do you open your TV? "

I rely on my Macs to be running whenever I need them. We do our own hardware and software repairs, and run some Unix programs. I don't need your links. I do need to have computers that are repair friendly, as were all my Macs since soon after Steve Jobs left Apple the first time in 1985 and took his micromanaging paranoia with him.

I have two G4 towers and a G5 tower. They are easy to open and upgrade. I had a CRT iMac that had a slide-out tray with the mobo and drives. The first flat iMacs could be opened. All can be opened so I can switch drives, add cards, memory, very quickly. My current--and last--iMac is extremely complicated and time-consuming to replace drives and PRAM/BIOS battery. A 10 minute upgrade or repair can take as much as two hours with the new iMacs, and Apple recommends TWO people to open a 27" iMac. However, I need Intel Macs to run our software, and don't want to be gauged by Apple for its overpriced towers that cost twice as much as they did a few years ago.

40% broadband penetration means that 60% don't or can't get fast broadband. I contacted yet another broadband company this week to get better service in an entire region of my state that is thinly served at very high fees. They said not now. Verizon said no. Comcast is gauging since they have no competition. In other parts of the state, there's 50Mbps service for $50. Here, we can't get better than 2Mbps for more than half that price. Jeff, your point on that is pointless. US broadband penetration is pathetic.

[Jakes Progress]

17. MS is a bad company, but the problem here is Dell, and HP, and Sony and . . .

[raouldukelives]

25. But people make good money by investing

in those companies and thereby applaud and support the conditions imposed on the workers. We are not slowing down. Every dollar in Wall St is a vote to continue and expand those practices.

[saras]

29. And THAT includes nearly every dollar in our retirement funds.

[Zalatix]

38. Then "our" retirement funds are poisoned.

[hobbit709]

34. Apple rips off people on their pricing.

And the Apple fanatics lap it up. Their hardware is not 3 times better quality and even the OS isn't that expensive.

[maximusveritas]

41. They're paying for the marketing that's used to suck them in

Cruel irony

[GeorgeGist]

36. One bad Apple ...

... you know the rest.

[mdmc]

40. ..