FBI calls half of populace with 9/11 doubts potential terrorists

[Ichingcarpenter]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by azurnoir (a host of the General Discussion forum).

The FBI is instructing local police departments and "communities against terrorism" to consider anyone who harbors "conspiracy theories" about 9/11 to be a potential terrorist, in a circular released to local police departments.

The circular thus adds 9/11 official story skeptics to a growing list of targets described by federal law enforcement to be security threats, such as those who express "libertarian philosophies," "Second Amendment-oriented views," interest in "self-sufficiency," "fears of Big Brother or big government," and "Declarations of Constitutional rights and civil liberties."

A newly released national poll shows that 48% of Americans either have some doubts about the official account of 9/11, or do not believe it at all.
The FBI circular entitled "Potential Indicators of Terrorist Activities Related to Sleepers" says that people who should be 'considered suspicious' of possible involvement in "terrorist activity" include those who hold the "attitude" described as " Conspiracy theories about Westerners."

The circular continues: "e.g. (sic) the CIA arranged for 9/11 to legitimize the invasion of foreign lands."


Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/358624#ixzz2fPvzV7YA

[longship]

1. Well, they are certainly delusional.

But that isn't, in and of itself, an indication other than their brains have been infected by a particular cultural meme. Granted, it's a crazy one when one engages in discussion with one of these people.

But they generally still go to work every day and do not feel any animosity towards anybody. Mostly they are harmless, as the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy might describe them.

I have had many discussions with them over the 12 years since 9/11. No, the make no sense at all. Yes they do have a sort of impervious armor they've erected around themselves making them seemingly immune to all rational argument, or science, or engineering, or anything else.

But I would never classify them as terrorists. Deluded? Yes. But that isn't a crime.

If it were, we'd likely all be in trouble from some perspective.

[sulphurdunn]

20. I'm sorry, but

a large percentage of the population falls under your wistful dismissal. This group includes a lot of people with serious credentials in aviation, physics, engineering and law enforcement. Deluded? Reopen the 911 case and let's find out.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

31. Numbers do not rectify error, it just makes more people erroneous

[sulphurdunn]

72. So let's rectify the error by opening

a new investigation into 911 and finding out whose conspiracy theory works best to explain the events of that day. A serious error of logic is a blind acceptance of the appeal to authority fallacy.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

78. Your statement assumes its own conclusion.

Cnspiracists can't even agree amongst themselves nor do any of their proposed theories explain more than what we already know.

[sulphurdunn]

113. We know planes struck

two of the three buildings and all three fell down. That's all we already know. The "how" of it is unsettled and will remain so until a new investigation is opened.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

114. Again, you assume the story we know is not true. You assume a conspiracy.

That's question begging. The only thing that is unsettled are certain minds.

[sulphurdunn]

118. Projection is the act

of crediting another with you own error. You argument presumes that the official conspiracy theory is true and therefore you arrive at the desired conclusion. That is an opinion and is called begging the question. Furthermore, you disparage those who think otherwise. That is the commission of an ad hominem fallacy. I have repeatedly called for reopening the investigation. That isn't even an argument. It's called a suggestion. The only reason you have posited for not doing so is that the matter is settled truth predicated upon the official conspiracy theory, which you accept as an article of faith. Your reasoning (what little there is of it) is defective in all particulars.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

119. "the official conspiracy theory, which you accept as an article of faith."

Or maybe the official public commission satisfactorily presented the evidence.

[sulphurdunn]

126. Whatever else may be said

of the 911 Commission. It cannot be said that it satisfactorily explained the evidence, was independent, impartial or even credible. The entire kabuki dance was a national embarrassment.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

130. Because a thousand CTers with competing theories said so.

Even though most of their theories invalidate the theories of their fellow CTers. That's not an inquiry, that's rabble rousing.

[socialist_n_TN]

140. Wasn't that commission appointed by W?.....

Not a sterling recommendation for the commission IMO. W (and his administration) didn't tell the truth about Iraq at ALL did they?

Not making an argument either way on the CT about 9/11, but I'm not sure I would use a commission by a proven liar to buttress my case.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

141. No, each party get to pick its reps.

[struggle4progress]

146. Holy shizz! A plane flies into a skyscraper, rupturing its fuel tanks, causing structural damage and

starting a huge fire -- and then for some mysterious reason, the whole building collapses! It's a fuggin complete mystery how that could have happened! I mean, the natural thing to expect next would have been that free popsicles would rain down on the whole city! But, no! instead, a lot of people got hurt! It doesn't make any sense! Why didn't the investigator consider that the building might have been brought down by a UFO attack or mebbe a misaligned psi-beam from the great pyramid? And where was Hillary Clinton that day? I asked my bank teller and my niece and my auto mechanic and nobody! nobody seems to be able to answer that question! I even tried taping a radio to my head, taking off my clothes, smearing myself with Crisco, wrapping myself in plastic wrap, and then climbing up on top of the fire station and flashing my laser pointer at the passing cars to call attention to this issue -- but all my efforts got me was som,e meeting with a bunch of doctors and a judge! It's a conspiracy, I tell ya!

[sulphurdunn]

153. You may not have thought

in depth or clearly about 911 beyond what wit ls required for mockery. But you should be able to remember the chronology of the attack: Plane strikes building, huge fireball. Remember that? Then lots and lots of very black smoke. Remember that? Huge fireball means nearly all of the aviation fuel was ignited upon impact, after which relatively low temperature fire that produced all that black smoke continued to burn flammables that were not consumed in the initial explosions. It would make as much sense for Popsicle to have rained down as for those building to have collapsed either from fire or from structural damage based sorely upon inferences drawn from computer models. Did you ever wonder why the evidence that would have proven beyond a reasonable doubt what brought down those building was removed before forensic tests could be performed? That's not an oops! sort of oversight. That is not to say they did not collapse as has been inferred, but it does say that the official explanation is not self-evident and a lot of questions about that day have not been addressed that should be.

[Eddie Haskell]

87. I not only think it, I know 911 was an inside job.

The FBI must be a terrorist operation ... Apparently, they hate us for our freedoms.

[HangOnKids]

92. These folks are under no delusions of a cultural meme as Longship wants us to believe

They are the ones stomping on it. Good for them. He has it wrong.

[Laelth]

22. I thought you were talking about the FBI.

It wasn't until the end that I realized you were talking about people who doubt the official 9-11 story.

Just a thought ... who's more likely to be delusional? 150 million Americans or an insular and secretive group of paranoid spooks who pull the strings at the FBI?



-Laelth

[ConcernedCanuk]

33. "who's more likely to be delusional?" - no brainer that - paranoid spooks

.
.
.

who's more likely to be delusional?

150 million Americans or an insular and secretive group of paranoid spooks who pull the strings at the FBI?
_________________________________________________________________________________________

and don't forget, the percentage is higher OUTSIDE the USA who don't buy the 911 story,

OR the tale of JFK's assassination . . . or justification for many other USA military "adventures"

So - doing some math - there are BILLIONS of "potential terrorists".

right . . . .

CC

[Laelth]

42. Spot on. n/t

-Laelth

[HangOnKids]

95. But but but Longship has had conversations with them

I mean every last fucking one of them and he knows EVERYTHING...don't you feel better now?

[Laelth]

115. LOL. No. Somehow that does not make me feel better.

I have too much respect for science and reality. I trust my own eyes. I know a controlled demolition when I see one.

Cheers!

-Laelth

[GoneFishin]

27. Ignoring the laws of physics is delusional. nt

[seveneyes]

39. Absolutely

Especially the ones claiming fire does not melt steel.

[Laelth]

43. Fire produced from jet fuel WILL NOT melt steel.

Nor will it significantly weaken said steel.

To believe otherwise is, indeed, to reject the laws of physics.

-Laelth

[Gravitycollapse]

100. "Nor will it significantly weaken said steel." - False.

It is in fact the case that persistent extremely high heat absolutely weakens steel. It was never required that the steel melt in order for the building to collapse. It simply needed to be weakened.

[Laelth]

106. Sure, extended exposure to high heat will weaken steel.

But you can't get that much heat out of the jet fuel in one aircraft. No way.

Keep spinning. Lots of us do not believe the "official" story, and for good reason.

-Laelth

[Gravitycollapse]

121. Jet A burns in open air at about 600 degrees. That was enough to auto-ignite...

Most objects within the building excluding any sort of fire proofing, concrete or the steel itself.

The fire was then stoked by updrafts that occur along the perpendicular surface of excessively tall buildings. Which allowed it to burn at temperatures high enough, including the fact that the fireproofing was knocked from the steel girders,to sufficiently weaken the steel support structure.

The thing is, collapse does not necessitate that the entirety of the steel support structure was compromised. It only requires that enough was compromised to make it incapable of withstanding the weight of the upper floors. Once that limit was exceeded, the upper floors collapsed down. This exerted a far greater strain on the steel and lowered the level at which the steel must have been weakened to foment the collapse. So, the other parts of the support structure that were not sufficiently weakened to give under normal conditions were obliterated because of the extra force exerted from the acceleration of the upper floors.

None of this requires that the fire burn at the melting point of steel. It is in fact the case that the point at which hardened steel begins to become excessively malleable is substantially lower than the melting point of steel.

[Laelth]

123. Looked like a controlled demolition to me.

Believe what you want.

-Laelth

[Gravitycollapse]

124. If you want to believe that 6 dump-truck loads of thermite were snuck into the building...

And placed and wired up throughout without anyone noticing, that said wiring was not damaged from the impact of a jet airliner and that the airliner was crashed at exactly the right point where the planned initial point of the demolition was planned, have at it.

You must also ignore the fact that there is no evidence that a controlled demolition occurred (there is in fact much evidence that betray the possibility) and that the events can be totally explained solely by the impact and subsequent fires.

[GoneFishin]

131. Yes it did. What terrible luck. Three buildings falling the same way, same day, in the same place,

same leaseholder. And, one of them wasn't even hit by a plane.

How naive do you have to be?

[Laelth]

132. Precisely. n/t

-Laelth

[sulphurdunn]

116. No evidence exists to seriously suggest

that fires in those building burned hot enough or long enough to deform let alone melt steel. The buildings were designed to survive exactly what happened to them. The fact that they did not suggests that either they were improperly designed or built or that another variable was at work in their failure.

[Laelth]

117. Spot on. That's the truth. n/t

-Laelth

[Gravitycollapse]

122. The buildings were designed but not sufficiently tested to withstand the conditions.

It is far more likely that the building's claimed structural integrity was lower than expected.

[sulphurdunn]

128. Their structural integrity

would have had to have been several magnitudes less than claimed, and that does not account for the collapse of Building #7.

[Gravitycollapse]

129. Do you understand what "order of magnitude" means?

It is an exponential function of 10. If we were, for instance, saying it was 3 orders of magnitude weaker, we are saying that it was 1000 times weaker.

There is nothing abnormal about the weakening of the steel. It was simply the case that the overall claimed integrity of the structure did not match the physical limitations of the material it was constructed from.


Building 7 collapsed in a similar manner, although it was also damaged extensively by the collapse of the towers. The fires that raged for hours, fed by tanks of fuel, substantially weakened the internal support structure to the point that collapse became imminent. Just as with the towers, visible sagging was clearly evident and technically speaking, the collapse occurred over many hours.

[sulphurdunn]

137. Orders of magnitude are factors of 10.

When I used the term magnitude I did not intend to suggest that mathematical relationship. It was a poor choice. I shouldn't have used it. Your explanation, however, assumes that the collapse was caused by defective construction. I would like to see that proven and not assumed. Had there been an in depth forensic investigation of the rubble, we might have an answer to that question.

[GoneFishin]

143. The living people in the windows suggests that they did not. nt

[GoneFishin]

74. Hold a cigarette lighter to a steel fork, get back to me when it melts. nt

[Gravitycollapse]

102. What kind of cigarette lighter do you use that approaches the temperatures associated...

with the persistent burning of Jet A?

Take a blow torch and hold it on a piece of steel. It will eventually melt.

Not that it is necessarily relevant to the collapse. The steel did not need to melt in order for the buildings to collapse.

[Gravitycollapse]

98. Trust me, I know more about physics than you and there is nothing contradictory...

About the official report on the collapses and the laws of physics.

[HangOnKids]

112. What a hoot

6 hidden posts and on the board 6 months, with a know it all attitude and a chip. Dial it down Gravity, you ain't all that.

[Gravitycollapse]

120. Just because I know more does not mean I know all. Maybe you should try that size on...

I've run across enough anti-science truthers over the years and investigated the actual events leading to the collapses enough to understand that I know more about physics than anyone who claims the towers could not have been brought down by the impact and subsequent fires.

[GoneFishin]

125. Sorry. I don't agree, or believe you. You clearly have not thought it through. And you are wrong.

The number of inconsistencies are too great.

From the very beginning people in a position to investigate the inconsistencies have behaved like a teenager accused of shoplifting. Insisting that he has done nothing wrong, but unwilling to empty his pockets to prove it.

Have a nice day.

[Gravitycollapse]

127. Watch interviews with those who created Loose Change and then tell me who's behaving immature.

Those two dolts have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. And that is evidenced in the fact that they have had to create about a dozen new editions of the film to account for gross error.

[GoneFishin]

134. My conclusions are my own. More information is good. But I knew something was rotten

immediately when two buildings pancaked into their own foot prints. The additional stink given off
by the destruction of the crime scene by shipping the steel to China to be melted, and so-on, just cemented the conclusion that we were not being told the truth.

And the stink keeps coming. I have not seen Loose Change.

[Gravitycollapse]

136. The towers did not pancake into their own footprint. They smashed into the surrounding buildings.

Just because it didn't fall over like a lego building doesn't mean it neatly fell directly into the confines of its footprint. The towers destroyed several surrounding buildings in the process of collapsing.

[GoneFishin]

139. If you perceive that a dozen damaged floors will cause the remainder of a hundred story building

of welded steel and concrete, above and below the damaged floors, to spontaneously pop apart into little pieces then your mind is already made up.

Thanks for the exchange.

[Gravitycollapse]

142. It was a progressive collapse. Each floor below giving under greater and greater force...

They were never designed to sustain the force exerted by a dozen upper floors collapsing down. Once that reaction occurs, there is a chain of collapses. The building is not one solid piece of steel.

As follows, with each successive floor collapse, instead of adding to the integrity of the building, the material now degrades the integrity of the building not merely because its support structure no longer exists but also because it has added to the force of the collapse.

[GoneFishin]

145. Any historical examples of that hypothesis in action on a modern steel building?

If three buildings with asymmetrical and varying damage can fall the same way, substantially straight down, on the same day, in the same place, and belonging to the same owner, then surely there must be dozens, if not hundreds, of other examples of localized fires bringing down steel framed buildings around the world due to this same phenomenon.

[Gravitycollapse]

155. Uhhh...they all collapsed on the same day because they were all part of a terrorist attack...

Do you look at a triple homicide and think "this doesn't make any sense. How could all three of these victims die on the same day?" Probably not because that would be a stupid thought to have.

The damage occurred as a result of all of the events happening together. The impact of the planes is instrumental in the collapse of the building. And these kinds of impact rarely every happen. So the fact that it is largely unprecedented is not itself a sign of conspiracy.

[sabrina 1]

54. Lol, I thought you meant the authors of this 'terror list' were delusional, which they are. I

guess just saying that now places me on their long, long and ever-growing list of Americans they consider to be the 'enemy'.

Nearly EVERYONE I know doubts the official story of 9/11, especially NYers. So they can whine and wail that people no longer believe their government due to ALL the lies they've told over the years, all they want. They cannot force people to believe the totally improbable stories they try to feed the public.

The biggest CT with the most dire consequences to millions of human beings came from the Government in the form of 'WMDs in Iraq', Mushroom clouds heading our way etc. The official 9/11 CT is doubted by half this country and most of the rest of the world.

That's an awful lot of 'terrorists', billions actually, living on this planet.

What a paranoid bunch of Conspiracy Theorists these people are.

[Laelth]

62. You suck, fyi.

I look forward to this post being hidden, if the jury so decides, but you come on this site, post some pro-state security fascist BS, and then you disappear, without bothering to respond to those of us who care enough about our country and its future that we're willing to respond to the specious BS you posted. If you have so little regard for us that you can't even be bothered to respond ...

you suck.

Alert away. I am looking forward to it.

-Laelth

[HangOnKids]

94. YOU ROCK!

Fucking Rock!!!

[Laelth]

108. Thank you.

And cheers!



-Laelth

[Downwinder]

2. Nothing about guns?

Can you be a potential terrorist without a gun?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

4. Guns make you a Patriot....

All set to fight the zombies for God and Country.

[jakeXT]

6. I think that covers it

Second Amendment-oriented views,

[Downwinder]

8. I guess the FBi will furnish the guns. As they have been doing.

[Eleanors38]

45. And here I've been told it is all NRA all the time.

[Eleanors38]

46. But that's only 80,000,000+ folks.

[noise]

3. What about the FBI agents and officials

who actively obstructed al Qaeda investigations before 9/11? Why does the FBI believe it is ok to obstruct al Qaeda investigations which resulted in the murder of US citizens?

[JohnyCanuck]

24. "Why does the FBI believe it is ok to obstruct al Qaeda investigations?"

Could it be because of a simple misspelling? The FBI were quite aware that the original spelling of al Qaeda was al CIAduh.

[jakeXT]

5. Everybody knows it's just a movie

[PowerToThePeople]

28. I had heard about that pilot episode

But I had never seen it until now.

[Half-Century Man]

7. I kinda looks like the FBI might

be succumbing to a few conspiracy theories itself.

The "whole world is against us" type. Dudes calm down, people bullshitting about something like the JFK assignation, 911 conspiracies, or unicorns, usually are harmless.

[ProfessorGAC]

14. Usually, Yes

The conspiracy nuts that do harm, as least as far as insulting people can be called harm, are the "fake moon landing" drones.

That insults the brave guys that went up there, the brilliant people who designed the systems and planned the missions, and the visionaries who saw the long term benefit of selling the plans, even if they had to use the "Russians might get there first" card.

I don't think those folks are harmless. I think their claims are hurtful and do a lot of damage to the credibility of a lot of wonderful people. Especially when it's so easy to technically refute their nonsense.

The rest, i'm with you. They can have silly notions, but they do no damage.

[Celefin]

9. Guerrilla gardening!

security threats, such as those who express "libertarian philosophies," "Second Amendment-oriented views," interest in "self-sufficiency," "fears of Big Brother or big government," and "Declarations of Constitutional rights and civil liberties."

Seriously, WTF?
...Oh, right. By growing your own veg you threaten the security of the large agri-corporations.

The whole list is a case of gone so far round the bend you have come full circle - but this gem takes the biscuit in my opinion.

Gardeners unite! Ready those pitchforks!

[Mojorabbit]

30. I know right! And I can my veggies and keep a full pantry. OMG! nt

[Eleanors38]

49. Gotta watch deer hunters. Knives AND guns.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

10. Welcome to the United States of Police. Your civil privileges have been permanently revoked.

[davidn3600]

11. And yet many here think it's fine for the NSA to collect data on you?

After all you have nothing to hide, right?

[Trillo]

84. I was kind of thinking the same thing, maybe a slightly oblique take.

The NSA has exceeded its authority, according to the news items I've read.

This is the kind of report, by another branch, which provides a basis, probable cause, for mass surveillance: thought crimes.

[SamKnause]

12. Threats ?

As a United States citizen I consider the CIA, the FBI, the DEA, the majority of our federal politicians, and the MIC brass to be terrorists organizations.

[HereSince1628]

25. More like 'potential' threats, you have freedom of speech, but they find it suspicious

and you are even more suspicious when you act on or seek to defend your rights.

Defense of personal rights is a tricky thing. It might involve resistance, resistance could, at least theoretically include violence or acts that would disrupt the economy and power structure.

So, any and all people considered willing or potentially willing to take a stand must be assigned non-zero risks for action consistent with their stand.

In short, the American security state fears all persons within its borders. They especially fear those who insist on realizing their liberties. This is because the security apparats just flat know, without any doubt, that liberty is the terrorists' playground.

In a twisted reality every terrorist act can be argued to have been enabled by freedom, making freedom and acts under liberty potential terrorist tools. The security state seems determined to get a handle on that.

[Eleanors38]

51. I would add the security apparatus knows a more prosaic fact:

Economic dislocation and the protests which accompany it is fast approaching. And they are readying themselves for it. If issues were limited to conspiracy theories and genuine restriction of civil liberties, protestors wouldn't get beyond a few hand-made signs at the courthouse. But economic turmoil like the 30s will light a match.

That's what the security state worries about.

[Bolo Boffin]

13. Something tells me that everyone here at DU, even our very own truthers,

will be OK.

As the graphic at the link shows, there are a lot of indicators they are looking for. If the only one you match is the 9/11 CT one, then calm down. Nobody's talking about scrutinizing you.

[solarhydrocan]

15. They can start with the 911 commission

The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission (Thomas Keane and Lee Hamilton) said that the CIA (and likely the White House) “obstructed our investigation”.

Stonewalled by the C.I.A.
By THOMAS H. KEAN and LEE H. HAMILTON
Published: January 2, 2008

But the recent revelations that the C.I.A. destroyed videotaped interrogations of Qaeda operatives leads us to conclude that the agency failed to respond to our lawful requests for information about the 9/11 plot. Those who knew about those videotapes — and did not tell us about them — obstructed our investigation....MORE
http://www-nc.nytimes.com/2008/01/02/opinion/02kean.html?=ref=opinion&_r=6&

The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission also said that the 9/11 Commissioners knew that military officials misrepresented the facts to the Commission, and the Commission considered recommending criminal charges for such false statements, yet didn’t bother to tell the American people.

9/11 Panel Suspected Deception by Pentagon
By Dan Eggen Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 2, 2006

Some staff members and commissioners of the Sept. 11 panel concluded that the Pentagon's initial story of how it reacted to the 2001 terrorist attacks may have been part of a deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public rather than a reflection of the fog of events on that day, according to sources involved in the debate....

Suspicion of wrongdoing ran so deep that the 10-member commission, in a secret meeting at the end of its tenure in summer 2004, debated referring the matter to the Justice Department for criminal investigation, according to several commission sources.

MORE
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006080101300.html?sub=new

9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton says “I don’t believe for a minute we got everything right”, that the Commission was set up to fail, that people should keep asking questions about 9/11, that the 9/11 debate should continue, and that the 9/11 Commission report was only “the first draft” of history.

9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey said that “There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . . We didn’t have access . . . .”
http://salon.com/ent/feature/2006/06/27/911_conspiracies/index4.html

Former 9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission, stating: “It is a national scandal”; “This investigation is now compromised”; and “One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up”.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/23/1546256

You bet there's more...
http://beyondleftright.com/topics/september-11/1495-6-of-10-911-commissioners-say-qofficial-storyq-a-lie

[gordianot]

16. In maybe 30 or 40 years another generation will be willing to look at 9/11.

The millenials will be middle aged, the baby boomers will have burnt off the nations wealth as they die out. Those unlucky enough to have been born in the coming decades are not going to be real happy, there is a lot of good material in the 9/11 story as to how and why the American people were betrayed.

[Ghost Dog]

32. What about 'Generation X' (if & when they ever grow up)?

(just a joke)...

... cf. http://fourthturning.com/

[Berlum]

17. "Smirk." - xCommander AWOL Bush (R)

[Scuba]

18. Thought Police.

[Laelth]

19. Great. Just great.

Nearly half of us are potential terrorists.



-Laelth

[RC]

35. Translation: Nearly half of us are capable of thinking for ourselves.

Capable of critical thinking. We don't wait for the daily talking point to decide for us what our minds are. That is what makes us dangerous. We are not the sheeple that easily swallow the latest propaganda to keep us in line. We do not revere our leaders as somehow mystical and god like.
Too bad we aren't the majority.

[Laelth]

37. Spot on, sadly.

Last edited Fri Sep 20, 2013, 11:31 AM - Edit history (1)

We'd all be better off, I think, if those of us who are capable of critical thinking were respected and valued (as opposed to being labeled terrorists and a threat to the nation's security).

-Laelth

[woo me with science]

44. +1

[Junkdrawer]

47. +2

[KoKo]

147. "Critical Thinking" is what the MIC wants to Stamp Out and ...call it...

"WOOOOOOOO!" or "CT."

There's been disinfo from time of first Civilizations...from Tribe to Tribe...Spy to Spy and Back and Forth.

But, discerning and inquisitive minds...have seemed to see the difference and carry on throughout history.

It's part of Life...but...oh NOOOOES every thought that's contrary and backed up by "contrarian info" (that can be Googled) is considered..."Not the OFFICIAL STORY"........so WOOOOO! CT!!!! Don't QUESTION or ELSE...you will be.........

[barbtries]

21. thought police

i'd be in that number. "Declarations of Constitutional rights and civil liberties."
the next one will be "people who post on DU"
i hope this gets a lot of traction. clearly the ACU is right about the FBI; the way they enlist police departments i find scary.

[KoKo]

148. "Thought Police!" That's a Blast from the Past...!

I'd totally forgotten how incredibly revealing that phrase is!

Thanks!

[ileus]

23. MIHOP LIHOP or jail...

can the local sheriffs take you order?

[FiveGoodMen]

93. Cake or Death?

(sorry, couldn't resist)

((Cake, please))

[truebluegreen]

26. Declarations of Constitutional rights and civil liberties?

Like the right to vote? The right to assemble? The right to petition the government? Free speech?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

34. This is the part that tripped me out --

The circular thus adds 9/11 official story skeptics to a growing list of targets described by federal law enforcement to be security threats, such as those who express "libertarian philosophies," "Second Amendment-oriented views," interest in "self-sufficiency," "fears of Big Brother or big government," and "Declarations of Constitutional rights and civil liberties."

They are validating the very things they claim make people suspect. If you fear the government is becoming too powerful and invasive with no regard to essential civil liberties then you will become targeted by a powerful and invasive regardless of whatever essential civil liberties you're entitled.

[truebluegreen]

36. Yes. All of the surveillance apparatus, from NSA to the FBI, is about control, not protection.

They don't want us to get out of line.

[JohnyCanuck]

48. ....fears of Big Brother or big government

That must mean then that if George Orwell were alive today, he would be on that potential terrorist list.

[Eleanors38]

52. And concerns about guns will evaporate like urine on a hot tank fender.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

53. I have no idea what a hot tank is but the image is vivid nonetheless.

[Junkdrawer]

29. Did ya think the Patriot Act was targeted at AQ-like groups only?

[malaise]

38. Freaking wow!

You see the problem with amorphous words like terrorism.

[Jesus Malverde]

41. The larger the threat the larger the budget...nt

[snooper2]

50. Why are truthy articles allowed in GD? The "poll" cited takes you to rethink911.com

I guess people need their hobbies

[starroute]

55. Why isn't anybody pointing out that this summary is pure right-wing propaganda?

The FBI is actively infiltrating, spying upon, and sending provocateurs against Occupy, anti-war, anarchist, and environmental groups. Meanwhile, they've barely touched right-wing groups, with the exception of some of the most hard-core white supremacists.

But the right is constantly terrified that government attention might turn in their direction. Look at the list again. It's all right-wing descriptions and buzzwords -- libertarians, gun fanatics, and people who worry about "big government" and "Constitutional rights." In that context, even "self-sufficiency" means doomsday preppers, not guerrilla gardeners. And the 9/11 truthers may have started out bipartisan, but these days there mostly hardcore right-wingers and Alex Jones fans.

The right has been successfully beating back any attempts to shine a light on their more dangerous and violence-prone elements for several years. And meanwhile the number of hate groups out there -- not to mention within the military -- just keeps growing. They've also been ramping up the violent rhetoric, arming themselves for a coming civil war, and forming alliances between one faction and another.

There's trouble on the horizon, and though FBI scrutiny of 9/11 truthers may be as ham-handed as IRS scrutiny of groups with "Tea Party" in their name, it's not misplaced.

[Downwinder]

65. J. Edger denied for years that there was a Mafia or Organized Crime.

[HangOnKids]

96. There will be no light shone on the coackroaches

They are running the joint. The right only screams about "government intervention, BIG GOVERNMENT" as a carnival side show. It makes people forget the RW are the owners of the circus.

[BlueStreak]

56. When was the last time a person with 911 doubts blew up a building or took hostages?

It seems to me the terrorists are more likely to be the people who ARE NOT skeptical about the information they are fed by governments or religions.

[truedelphi]

107. In fact one of the real terrorists lives right outside

Of Jackson Hole (among other places) and he saw to it that the meme of "Nine Eleven Official Story" should never be doubted or even examined became basically the law of the land.

[whatchamacallit]

57. Sounds like the DU TOS

[Ghost in the Machine]

58. F.B.I. = Fraternal Brotherhood of Ineptness? Fried Brains Institute? Forgotten By Intelligence??

Any others?

Ghost

[Downwinder]

67. F.B.I. = Fan Belt Inspectors

[rusty fender]

81. Fat Balding Idiots

my favorite

[Vashta Nerada]

59. "Declarations of Constitutional rights and civil liberties."

If that makes one a potential terrorist, better add me onto the list.

[Turborama]

60. Where is the original source? SurvivalBlog.com

The stuff that's apparently on the circular is this list of characteristics I'd be surprised they weren't looking out for:





The other stuff about "libertarian philosophies," "Second Amendment-oriented views," interest in "self-sufficiency," "fears of Big Brother or big government," and "Declarations of Constitutional rights and civil liberties." comes from this anonymous article posted on survivalblog.com in 2011.

Beware of Homeland Security Training for Local Law Enforcement, by An Insider

Wednesday, Mar 30, 2011

=snip=

So how does a person qualify as a potential domestic terrorist? Based on the training I have attended, here are characteristics that qualify:

- Expressions of libertarian philosophies (statements, bumper stickers)
- Second Amendment-oriented views (NRA or gun club membership, holding a CCW permit)
- Survivalist literature (fictional books such as "Patriots" and "One Second After" are mentioned by name)
- Self-sufficiency (stockpiling food, ammo, hand tools, medical supplies)
- Fear of economic collapse (buying gold and barter items)
- Religious views concerning the book of Revelation (apocalypse, anti-Christ)
- Expressed fears of Big Brother or big government
- Homeschooling
- Declarations of Constitutional rights and civil liberties
- Belief in a New World Order conspiracy


Another common tactic used in DHS sponsored training is the slander of certain ideologies by linking an erroneous characteristic to a particular group. Here are some examples:

- These groups hold the anniversaries of certain dates as significant such a Ruby Ridge, Waco and Hitler’s birthday
- They oppose abortion, support gun rights and are affiliated with the Ku Klux Klan
- They are fearful of big government, espouse support for the Constitution and want to kill police officers
- These groups collect firearms, survivalist books and explosives
- These extremists read books such as Patriots, One Second After and The Anarchist Cookbook
- They are religious zealots, reading the book of Revelation, speak of the second coming of Christ and plan mass murders to summon the end of the world
- These people grow their own food, raise livestock and plot attacks on commercial food production facilities

Full blig post: http://www.survivalblog.com/2011/03/beware_of_homeland_security_tr.html

Looks like Ralph Lopez is managing to hoodwink quite a lot of people with their dishonest conglomeration. As far as the 2 year old anonymous post on survivalblog.com is concerened, personally I have trouble believing any anonymous source, especially when it's posted on a blog like that.

[BelgianMadCow]

61. so you all are basically declared terrorists

I'd say that over half of DU
- dislikes Big brother, and is angry or fearful about the NSA spying
- has strong views on constitutional right and civil liberties
- is environmentally aware and therefore in favour of some degree of self-sufficiency (and against Big Oil)
AT THE SAME TIME. And that's leaving out 9/11 "CT", even though recent polls didn't quite show a majority believing the official CT.

The best thing would be if you also start using Tor and encrypting your mail and data (which are also "indicators of terrorism", as per an earlier release). By then everybody is suspect and then the NSA knows nothing again. Power in numbers

, Agent Mike.

[Turborama]

63. Oh, and the 2 links he provides as sources for the circular? OMG!

1 is down:

The page cannot be found

The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
Please try the following:

Make sure that the Web site address displayed in the address bar of your browser is spelled and formatted correctly.
If you reached this page by clicking a link, contact the Web site administrator to alert them that the link is incorrectly formatted.
Click the Back button to try another link.
HTTP Error 404 - File or directory not found.
Internet Information Services (IIS)

Technical Information (for support personnel)

Go to Microsoft Product Support Services and perform a title search for the words HTTP and 404.
Open IIS Help, which is accessible in IIS Manager (inetmgr), and search for topics titled Web Site Setup, Common Administrative Tasks, and About Custom Error Messages.

http://www.columbuspolice.org/Units/TEW%2520Info/recognizing_sleepers_word2007trifold.pdf

The other one is to a PDF about Potential Indicators of Terrorist Activities Related to Construction Sites

Here's the lists...

What Should I Consider Suspicious?
 Removal or altering of survey stakes on a construction site.
 Anyone inquiring about security at a construction area.
 Surveillance of the site by unknown individuals.
 Environmental and/or antigovernment slogans, banners, or signs at the site or in the nearby area.
 Group identifiers or warning signs left on the site.
 People entering a construction site after work hours.
 Warnings or threats sent to construction companies.
 Unscheduled deliveries of materials/equipment.
 Items found on-site that do not belong or are not a part of the site materials.
 Vandalism at similar sites.
 Thefts of hazardous materials.
 Evidence of intentional damage to cables, gas lines, and power lines.
 Vandalism at the site, including window breakage, slashed tires, spray-painting, sand/sugar in fuel tanks, cutting of fuel and brake lines, and/or glued locks.
 Arson at buildings under construction, work sheds, or any kind of equipment, including trucks, bulldozers, and cranes.
 Following a crime on-site, the discovery of discarded clothing, shoes/boots, tools, or spray-paint cans along roads and paths near the site.

It is important to remember that just because someone’s speech, actions, beliefs, appearance, or way of life is different, it does not mean that he or she is suspicious.

What Should I Do?

Maintain your construction sites.
 Secure potentially dangerous or hazardous products.
 Clean the site regularly.
 Watch for people and actions that are out of place.
 Know what material and equipment should be on-site.
 Know what subcontractors and workers should be on-site.
 Do not leave the site unattended for long periods.
 Require all subcontractors to be licensed and insured.

Do not jeopardize your safety or the safety of others.

Preventing terrorism is a community effort. By learning what to look for, you can make a positive contribution in the fight against terrorism. The partnership between the community and law enforcement is essential to the success of anti-terrorism efforts.

Some of the activities, taken individually, could be innocent and must be examined by law enforcement professionals in a larger context to determine whether there is a basis to investigate. The activities outlined on this handout are by no means all-inclusive but have been compiled from a review of terrorist events over several years.

If something seems wrong, notify law enforcement authorities.

http://www.nh.gov/readynh/resources/documents/construction_sites.pdf

If you read beyond just those 2 links you'll see that this fabrication about what's in the FBI circular has been creatively put together by Ralph Lopez as way to introduce the same "evidence" 9/11 conspiracy theorists have been talking about for years.

[johnnyreb]

66. First link still up, but url changed

This project was supported by Grant Number 2007-MU-BX-K002,
awarded by the Bureau of Justice Assistance, Office of Justice Programs,
U.S. Department of Justice. The opinions, findings, and conclusions or
recommendations expressed in this document are those of the authors and
do not necessarily represent the official position or policies of the
U.S. Department of Justice.
http://www.columbuspolice.org/Units/TEW%20Info/recognizing_sleepers_word2007trifold.pdf

The old link is also on waybackmachine.

[maddezmom]

73. Interesting

Bt not surprising.

[Octafish]

64. Cass Sunstein makes a lot more sense.

Government Nanny Censoring "Conspiracy Theories" Is Also Responsible for Letting Bush Era Torture and Spying Conspiracies Go Unpunished

Washingtons Blog, Oct. 7, 2010

EXCERPT...

Prosecuting government officials risks a “cycle” of criminalizing public service, (Sunstein) argued, and Democrats should avoid replicating retributive efforts like the impeachment of President Clinton — or even the “slight appearance” of it.

SOURCE w links n details:

http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2010/10/main-obama-adviser-blocking-prosecution.html?m=1
26

[WatermelonRat]

68. Violence is the logical conclusion of conspiracy theories

If you sincerely believe that the U.S. Government intentionally killed 3,000 of its own people in a vast sinister conspiracy, it is a natural expectation that you would support overthrowing the government.

[HangOnKids]

97. I Think Sponge Bob Is On!

You might want to tune in.

[KoKo]

149. LOL's so folks who Ask Questions are prone to doing "Acts of Violence."

Typical Spin on inquiring minds. Just do the Zombie Thing!

[Glassunion]

69. We are all free

to do what our government tells us.

Problem is, that even when you do what your government tells you, that's wrong too.

"Self-sufficiency (stockpiling food, ammo, hand tools, medical supplies)"...

But ready.gov tells us to do that exact thing. WTF?

[woo me with science]

70. kick

[MineralMan]

71. Ah...they've been reading Creative Speculation, it seems.

[Electric Monk]

75. It's for intimidation. They want those who doubt the "official CT version of events" to stfu. nt

[zappaman]

76. I disagree that they are "Potential terrorists", but

they are certainly "Absolute Dumbasses."

[whatchamacallit]

82. What kind of dumbass

thinks people who grow their own food are stupid? Proudly displaying that ring in your nose, ZAPPAman?

[zappaman]

83. Good one!

ZING!



Tell us more about 9/11 being an inside job...I can't get enough!

[whatchamacallit]

86. Why bother?

Your opinions are formed by uncritically accepting whatever authorities tell you. Being in the mainstream is a security blanket, the safe and easy way to feel superior. Congrats.

[zappaman]

91. yeah, that must be it!

damn, maybe I should watch more youtube videos!

[HangOnKids]

99. Ahh but his JFK avatar is so convincing

do a quick search on that!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

88. lol and true

[KamaAina]

77. "libertarian philosophies,"??

Wouldn't that put Ron Paul and his son the Rug Doctor on the list?

[KamaAina]

105. ???

Do you agree with this list-keeping? Or do you admire Rand Paul?

By the way, I am primarily a Giants fan but am too ashamed to admit that in public this year.

[HangOnKids]

109. No to both. List keeping sucks and Paul is an asshole.

I noticed you changed your avatar, not many Oaktown baseball lovin' people here.

[KamaAina]

111. Then why am I on the trash heap of history?

For the avatar change? All fans get to have a favorite team from the other league. Being in the two-team Bay Area makes it easy.

edit: During the '89 season (pre-earthquake), people were seen wearing hybrid Giants/A's caps split down the middle. You would not see this with, say, the Yankees and Mets or Cubs and White Sox.

[gopiscrap]

79. Fucking law enforcement asswipes.

This is one of the two problems with law enforcement. One they have this "us vs them" mentality and two there is no accountability for these out of control anger riddled fuck shits!

[Zater]

80. FBI is reaching far

That is unnecessary intrusion into the lives of innocent Americans.

[TBF]

135. Welcome to the new and improved America under the Patriot Act -

and welcome to DU.

[spin]

85. I personally have never believed the official story of the JFK assassination. ...

Does that make me a potential terrorist?

Is it now necessary to believe anything and everything our government tells us? I seem to remember that we were told it was necessary to invade Iraq as Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction which posed a significant treat to our nation and our interests.

If you have never read the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell take some time to do so. If you read it years ago, read it again.

Now I personally don't buy the conspiracy theories about 9/11. Still I believe that in a nation that allows freedom of speech and freedom of the press, we should allow the voices of people who believe in conspiracy theories to be heard. I also do not feel that the fact that some people do not believe the official story of an event should by itself make them a target for police attention.

Of course now because I mentioned Nineteen Eighty-Four I will possibly be viewed in a negative light by my government as it will feel that I have a fear of "Big Brother." The sad part is that the government will waste so much time watching people like me who are harmless that they will totally miss the truly dangerous terrorists who are smart enough to keep their mouths shut.

[The Stranger]

89. THOUGHTCRIME

[The Stranger]

90. and CRIMETHINK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

In the dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell, thoughtcrime is the criminal act of holding unspoken beliefs or doubts that oppose or question the ruling party. In the book, the government attempts to control not only the speech and actions, but also the thoughts of its subjects. To entertain unacceptable thought is known as crimethink in Newspeak, the ideologically purified dialect of the party.[1] In the book, Winston Smith, the main character, writes in his diary: "Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime is death." There is also a "ministry of love" which is actually the place of torture for people who commit any type of crime, including thoughtcrime.

[99th_Monkey]

103. FBI is 'Unleashed and unaccountable' says the ACLU

'Unleashed and unaccountable' - ACLU condemns FBI in new report
http://rt.com/usa/aclu-fbi-report-unleashed-977/

Needs a total overhaul.

[KoKo]

150. One hopes that folks here would read that link...

Kind of "calls out" those who don't...because their script is put out for them...and deviation would be "UNACCEPTABLE."

[KoKo]

151. Heres the Text from ACLU RELEASE:

Published on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 by Common Dreams
'Unleashed and Unaccountable': FBI's Post-9/11 Abuse of Power
New ACLU study tracks explosion in secret surveillance and infiltration programs that trample constitutional and civil rights
- Sarah Lazare, staff writer


(Image: ACLU)The FBI has abused its ever-widening post-9/11 powers to target immigrants, minorities, and political dissidents through secret surveillance and infiltration programs that trample constitutional rights and run roughshod over principles of fairness and justice, the ACLU finds in a breaking report released Tuesday.
Entitled “Unleashed and Unaccountable: The FBI’s Unchecked Abuse of Authority (pdf),” this comprehensive report traces the explosion in the FBI's surveillance authority and reach over the past 12 years and tracks systemic violations of First and Fourth Amendment protections. As the NSA spying scandal continues to ricochet across the globe, the study paints an in-depth picture of how a political climate of permissiveness led to FBI abuse and overreach.
In the aftermath of the 9/11 attack, Congress—backed by the Department of Justice and the White House—have expanded the Bureau's authority to survey and investigate Americans, invoking the threat of terrorism to pass legislation from the Patriot Act in 2001 to the FISA Amendments Act in 2008. In conjunction with these political developments, the FBI has revised its own internal guidelines and claimed the right, according to the report, to investigate and spy on U.S. people without reasonable suspicion.
What have these expanding authorities meant in practice?
The report outlines a litany of abuses over the past 12 years, including a racial mapping program, in which FBI officials gathered demographic information on people in the U.S. and mapped communities according to their racial and ethnic composition. Abuses also included warrant-less wiretaps, as well as FBI accessing of private information from financial, telecommunications, and credit companies with no judicial approval. As recently exposed by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, the FBI also tracked phone calls, invoking the Patriot Act.
The ACLU report shows that the Bureau targeted protesters and religious groups with "aggressive tactics that infringe on their free speech, religion and associational rights." The Bureau has abused no-fly lists to recruit informants and unjustly targeted Chinese and Russian communities, Spanish-speaking populations, and communities of color in the United States.
Authors of the report slammed a Bureau that has been shrouded in secrecy and sheltered from public debate and criticism. "Courts have been reticent to challenge government secrecy demands and, despite years of debate in Congress regarding the proper scope of domestic surveillance, it took unauthorized leaks by a whistleblower to finally reveal the government's secret interpretations of these laws and the Orwellian scope of its domestic surveillance programs," the report reads.
The authors offer a list of 15 reforms to reign in the FBI's power and curtail well-documented and numerous constitutional violations. “The list of abuses is long and demonstrates that Congress must do a top-to-bottom review of FBI policies and practices to identify and curtail any activities that are unconstitutional or easily misused,” said Hina Shamsi, director of the ACLU’s National Security Project.
“The time for wholesale reform has come.”
_____________________
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 License

https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/09/17-7

[PeteSelman]

104. Even though the ridiculous "official" story is itself a conspiracy theory.

Toe the line or be declared a terrorist. This country is in deep, deep trouble.

[truedelphi]

110. Not at all surprising. We have a trillion dollar a year Surveillance program in

Place, so the State needs to manufacture some terrorists very quickly, before citizens start demanding the money gets spend instead on needed items like infra structure and schools.

[Ohio Joe]

133. Like all truther non-sense, this is deceptive and only partially true

Why do truthers never... Well... Tell the truth?

[noise]

154. The FBI hasn't bee honest about 9/11

but I guess that is ok because FBI lying doesn't affect anyone. Maybe the public wouldn't have been ok with giving the FBI vast counterterrorism powers if the truth about FBI conduct was known. To this day we don't know why FBI agents obstructed the al-Hazmi/al-Mihdhar investigation because all that info is classified. The 9/11 Commission completely failed in their effort to explain FBI conduct. Their effort was disgraceful.

[Taitertots]

138. The secret police (FBI, NSA, CIA...) are the single biggest threat to this country. Far worse....

Than Terrorism.

That list includes almost everyone in the entire country that isn't a brainless lump of shit. Basically, if you think about anything ever, the government has declared you a terrorist.

[BolDiya]

144. Cut off Printed money

Withdraw printed money. No luxuries and less food means conspiracy people will faint and shut down

[marlakay]

152. Well I guess a bunch of us

Replying to this will be on the list I don't know the truth but I know a bunch of stuff is fishy about that day.

[azurnoir]

156. sorry locking please repost in creative speculation n/t