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WillyT

(72,631 posts)
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 09:09 AM Sep 2013

If You Want To Know Why The TPP Is A Terrible Idea, Look At NAFTA's Chapter 11 Here:

Bill Moyers Reports: "Trading Democracy."

BILL MOYERS: This is the story of how a trade agreement – supported by two Presidents and ratified by the Congress – became an end-run around the Constitution. The terms were influenced by Washington lawyers and lobbyists – and the companies who employ them. It is now played out in rooms like this.

Chapter 11 is only one provision in the five hundred and fifty-five page North American Free Trade Agreement – negotiated to promote business among the US, Canada and Mexico. It was supposedly written to protect investors if foreign governments tried to seize their property.

But corporations have stretched NAFTA's Chapter 11 to undermine environmental decisions – the decisions of local communities – even the verdict of an American jury. The cases brought – so far – total almost four billion dollars.

The claims are being decided not in open court, but in what has become a system of private justice, in secret tribunals. That's exactly the way the authors of Chapter 11 designed it.

WILLIAM GREIDER (NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT, THE NATION): What offends me most is that these lawyers understood that public laws were gonna come under attack in this system, and they just walked right past the question of where's the American public in this?

BILL MOYERS: William Greider has covered economics and politics, both national and global, for 35 years – first for The Washington Post and now for The Nation magazine. But even William Greider was taken aback by the broad new powers given foreign corporations under NAFTA's Chapter Eleven.

BILL MOYERS: They now have the right to sue governments?

WILLIAM GREIDER: Right, and sue them directly, without having to get the approval of their own government. And that's one of the features of NAFTA which is distinctively different from all previous trade agreements.

BILL MOYERS: Chapter Eleven gives corporations the right to sue for damages if they believe they have been hurt by the action of a government. The case is treated as if it were a simple trade dispute – and argued in this room at the World Bank in Washington – or in others in cities like New York and Toronto.

The parties in the case – the company and the government it is suing – choose a three-man tribunal, drawn mostly from a select pool of experts in international law. Nothing is open to the public.

WILLIAM GREIDER: I think of it actually as kind of an exclusive court for capital. American citizens not admitted, even American legislators not admitted. And if that doesn't up-end democracy, I don't know what does.


Full Transcript Here: http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_tdfull.html

Video Here: http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/tradingdemocracy.html




61 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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If You Want To Know Why The TPP Is A Terrible Idea, Look At NAFTA's Chapter 11 Here: (Original Post) WillyT Sep 2013 OP
The approach to this is despicable and the TPP is not an idea that any Democratic president Jefferson23 Sep 2013 #1
+1 Scuba Sep 2013 #3
Didn't you hear? Either Democrat doesn't mean what it used to mean, djean111 Sep 2013 #4
I can't support what I do know about it and I am furious about the deliberate lack of transparency. Jefferson23 Sep 2013 #40
Correct -- Welcome to the End of Representative Democracy & the Beginning of Fascism in America. whathehell Sep 2013 #14
What Democratic president? jsr Sep 2013 #45
Obama, that is the party he signed with. The Demcoratic Party, where about 9 million more people Jefferson23 Sep 2013 #47
excellent. thanks for posting! k&r cali Sep 2013 #2
Anytime... WillyT Sep 2013 #50
K&R! It's like a "Star Chamber"! Dustlawyer Sep 2013 #5
Thank you, WillyT nenagh Sep 2013 #6
You Are Quite Welcome !!! WillyT Sep 2013 #53
Thank You Bill Clinton, for signing that into law. nt Snotcicles Sep 2013 #7
A sad thing is that aired in 2002. nt Snotcicles Sep 2013 #9
he did not just sign it into law hfojvt Sep 2013 #16
NAFTA: Ross Perot and Al Gore Debate 1993, Part 4 of 8 solarhydrocan Sep 2013 #26
I wasn't blaming Democrats. I remember mine and many Snotcicles Sep 2013 #27
I think most of us need a real tutorial on trade treestar Sep 2013 #8
They ARE Bad If They Circumvent A Country's Sovereignty... Or A Country's Constitution... WillyT Sep 2013 #10
I agree. What we also need is a way to keep corporations from circumventing the associated laws. n kelliekat44 Sep 2013 #11
I think too many people confuse needless complexity with necessity. Egalitarian Thug Sep 2013 #13
Agreed, but if you imagine the TPP is harmless, or even "good", you have to ask yourself whathehell Sep 2013 #15
TTP = NAFTA????????? Cryptoad Sep 2013 #12
More like NAFTA on steroids. thanks for confirming that you know jackshit, honey. cali Sep 2013 #17
Right? truebrit71 Sep 2013 #18
Funny TPP does not even exist yet you know what it is,,,,,,,nt Cryptoad Sep 2013 #20
Sorry, charlie, but the investment arbitration piece has been leaked and cali Sep 2013 #22
leaked?????????: Cryptoad Sep 2013 #31
yes. we live in an age where stuff like this gets leaked, yes it's a fact. sorry, honeypie. cali Sep 2013 #32
We live in world where links are planned for Cryptoad Sep 2013 #36
Well many of these TPP trade agreement deals are already in WTO agreements. fasttense Sep 2013 #33
I am not objecting toanyone opposing the TTP Cryptoad Sep 2013 #35
And I object to dumbassery, anti-intellectulalism, childish taunts, bvar22 Sep 2013 #41
And the price of tea in China is What? Cryptoad Sep 2013 #56
Hey... At Least he Keeps Kicking My Thread... And It's Much Appreciated... WillyT Sep 2013 #57
Hey... At Least He Keeps Kicking My Thread... And It's Much Appreciated... WillyT Sep 2013 #58
So let's guess your point! "The TPP and NAFTA have different letters therefore rhett o rick Sep 2013 #43
I have voiced my point but you were not listening..... Cryptoad Sep 2013 #55
You mean the, "I will support Obama's position on the TPP no matter who gets hurt." rhett o rick Sep 2013 #59
There you go again making up stuff Cryptoad Sep 2013 #60
Prominent politicians and negotiators in poor countries speak out against TPP octoberlib Sep 2013 #19
Thank You For That !!! WillyT Sep 2013 #21
Thanks for your post , WillyT! NT octoberlib Sep 2013 #30
This is OP-worthy woo me with science Sep 2013 #38
Now just hold on a minute. Is it being suggested that the strong countries will take advantage of rhett o rick Sep 2013 #44
I'm not sure what this means What I think is if you get ripped off by some foreign factory order- Sunlei Sep 2013 #23
no, that has zip to do with it. Not even close. cali Sep 2013 #24
ok, not understanding. I do want our country to bring in revenue with world trade. Sunlei Sep 2013 #25
these trade agreement do nothing to help working people. it's all about looking out for the intrests KG Sep 2013 #28
You are entirely correct. It will hurt us all as consumers as it does away with safety regulations whathehell Sep 2013 #49
at what cost? cali Sep 2013 #29
This is about giving corporations dominion over a nation's laws.... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2013 #34
Lori Wallach, Trade Attorney for Public Citizen's Global Trade Watch is on Ed Schultz explaining TPP whathehell Sep 2013 #37
+1 It's predatory, plain and simple, woo me with science Sep 2013 #39
Yes, and I just heard Wallach on the radio. She says we need to "spread the word" as the president whathehell Sep 2013 #46
This undermines our democracy. Enthusiast Sep 2013 #42
Very much so, and it's dangerous even beyond that, as it will, among other things, diminish whathehell Sep 2013 #48
Under NAFTA provisions, in the 1990's, the state of Calif was forced to pay truedelphi Sep 2013 #51
Yep... I Remember That... WillyT Sep 2013 #52
Can Congress legally pass a law that strips federal & state courts of their constitution powers? Faryn Balyncd Sep 2013 #54
Reading the fine print, looks like NAFTA wasn't about eliminating tariffs, but sabataging democracy. Faryn Balyncd Sep 2013 #61

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
1. The approach to this is despicable and the TPP is not an idea that any Democratic president
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 09:13 AM
Sep 2013

should push for.

K&R

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
4. Didn't you hear? Either Democrat doesn't mean what it used to mean,
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 09:46 AM
Sep 2013

or we should have known he was not really what we think of as a democrat.
How this excuses this travesty eludes me.

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
40. I can't support what I do know about it and I am furious about the deliberate lack of transparency.
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 02:20 PM
Sep 2013

Enough already, they work for us.

whathehell

(29,151 posts)
14. Correct -- Welcome to the End of Representative Democracy & the Beginning of Fascism in America.
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:49 AM
Sep 2013

This is COMPLETELY unacceptable.

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
47. Obama, that is the party he signed with. The Demcoratic Party, where about 9 million more people
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 03:34 PM
Sep 2013

voted for him over McCain in '08.

A president can change a lot, or not. He can have the obstacles of the insane Republicans
to battle with and they are obstructionists, but his administration is too often ineffective, regardless.

Then there is the Obama who leans towards an economic view that has nothing to do with placing
blame on the insane Republicans. He has his own slant, we saw that when he surrounded himself
with failures like Geithner..can't blame the Republicans for everything.

He owns this TPP.

That Democratic president.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
16. he did not just sign it into law
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:57 AM
Sep 2013

He PUSHED for its passage.

I was arguing with a guy whether NAFTA came from Democrats or Republicans. Well, it was passed by a majority of Republicans in Congress, but yeah, without Clinton it never would have passed. Still I would blame Republicans and NEW Democrats, rather than blaming Democrats.

 

Snotcicles

(9,089 posts)
27. I wasn't blaming Democrats. I remember mine and many
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 11:41 AM
Sep 2013

other unions screaming against it from the beginning.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
8. I think most of us need a real tutorial on trade
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:24 AM
Sep 2013

we are always asked to accept that the agreements are bad.

I've tried to study these things and they are not simple.

 

WillyT

(72,631 posts)
10. They ARE Bad If They Circumvent A Country's Sovereignty... Or A Country's Constitution...
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:32 AM
Sep 2013
or their labor laws... or their environmental laws... and they are done in secret without public input...


 

kelliekat44

(7,759 posts)
11. I agree. What we also need is a way to keep corporations from circumventing the associated laws. n
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:35 AM
Sep 2013
 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
13. I think too many people confuse needless complexity with necessity.
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:38 AM
Sep 2013

NAFTA is a terrible deal for everyone that isn't a part of or working for the corporations for whom it was written, period, EOF. There is no bright side to it, no OTOH, it is a very long, complicated, paper laying out a system of "heads I win, tails you lose" to profit companies at the expense of workers.

IOW, another very bad republican idea made reality by a nominally Democratic government.

whathehell

(29,151 posts)
15. Agreed, but if you imagine the TPP is harmless, or even "good", you have to ask yourself
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 10:57 AM
Sep 2013

why it's being negotiated in secret.

We should all check out TradeWatch.org...I first learned of the truly awful TPP from an attorney

from that organization

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
22. Sorry, charlie, but the investment arbitration piece has been leaked and
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 11:21 AM
Sep 2013

we have a shitload of precedent under NAFTA and and other FTAs.

You can keep falsely saying we don't know anything, but we do know some things and they suck.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
32. yes. we live in an age where stuff like this gets leaked, yes it's a fact. sorry, honeypie.
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 12:21 PM
Sep 2013

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
36. We live in world where links are planned for
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 12:43 PM
Sep 2013

the people who think speculation is Fact!

Who is HoneyPie?

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
33. Well many of these TPP trade agreement deals are already in WTO agreements.
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 12:22 PM
Sep 2013

That's why Clinton was so willing to repeal Glass-Steagall. It was already a requirement in a WTO amendment that the US agreed to back in Raygun's watch.

The tribunals are already in place, the corporations suing government arbitrarily and willy nilly are already in place in WTO agreements. It just makes me wonder why they even need the TPeePee when the WTO has taken on most all of these neocon fantasy rules that fascist so want.

Maybe Obama just wanted one agreement that spelled each of these anti-democracy neocon trade rules. Or maybe the neocons fear some liberal US president will back out of the WTO and wanted another agreement to permanently enshrine fascism through out the US. Who knows?

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
35. I am not objecting toanyone opposing the TTP
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 12:38 PM
Sep 2013

I object to those who oppose arguing using speculation as Fact.

I also find it amusing that many who oppose never post any objections to what our "real" enemy is doing to try and destroy this country!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014599553#post21

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
41. And I object to dumbassery, anti-intellectulalism, childish taunts,
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 02:24 PM
Sep 2013

fabricated postulates, Strawmen, and low bar Shameless Sophistry being passed off as "discussion" or "debate" at DU,

,,,,,,,but that doesn't stop it from happening.

,,,,Does it?

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
43. So let's guess your point! "The TPP and NAFTA have different letters therefore
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 03:19 PM
Sep 2013

you cant compare them."

Or better yet, "I have nothing intelligent to say so I will just add LMAO and that will show them."

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
59. You mean the, "I will support Obama's position on the TPP no matter who gets hurt."
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 05:00 PM
Sep 2013

I dont understand your use of the LMAO. If it is intended as some form of ridicule, it's lost on me.

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
60. There you go again making up stuff
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 05:03 PM
Sep 2013

I have never said i supported Obama position on TPP.......... please cite your source!

octoberlib

(14,971 posts)
19. Prominent politicians and negotiators in poor countries speak out against TPP
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 11:14 AM
Sep 2013
The Trans-Pacific Partnership is a sweeping, secret global treaty that sets out many corporatist policies by which countries surrender their national interest and sovereignty in favor of corporations, who get to violate local regulations and rules and sue countries that try to enforce them.
A lot of the opposition to TPP has centered on its insane copyright provisions (leaked TPP drafts have included things like mandatory border-searches of laptops and phones for pirated music and movies; as well as "three-strikes" rules like the failed French HADOPI system, whereby whole families would be disconnected from the Internet if their router was linked to unsubstantiated claims of piracy).

But increasingly, the participating countries are growing nervous with the whole premise of TPP.

For example, the former Prime Minister of Malaysia published a post where he called TPP "a partnership of the unequal, of the strong to take advantage of the weak." And Chile's former chief TPP negotiator wrote a newspaper editorial where he said, "It is a threat to our countries. It will restrict our options for development in health and education, in biological and cultural diversity, design of public policies and the transformation of our economies."


http://boingboing.net/2013/07/31/prominent-politicians-and-nego.html

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130727/05443723968/discontent-with-secrecy-one-sided-nature-tpp-spreads-among-participating-nations.shtml
 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
44. Now just hold on a minute. Is it being suggested that the strong countries will take advantage of
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 03:22 PM
Sep 2013

weaker countries? Outrageous, simple outrageous. Why, I bet you cant come up with more than a thousand examples of this happening in the past.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
23. I'm not sure what this means What I think is if you get ripped off by some foreign factory order-
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 11:28 AM
Sep 2013

You can have the world bank help you get your money back instead of having to deal with the factory.

KG

(28,755 posts)
28. these trade agreement do nothing to help working people. it's all about looking out for the intrests
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 11:45 AM
Sep 2013

of major multinational corps.

whathehell

(29,151 posts)
49. You are entirely correct. It will hurt us all as consumers as it does away with safety regulations
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 03:54 PM
Sep 2013

in our food and in the environment...It will also undermine our entire democracy.

its stipulations are really quite shocking. I don't know what's in PBO's head, and

I don't much care, I just know we have to kill this thing.

I just listened to trade attorney, Lori Wallach, from Tradewatch.org, at Public Citizen on The Ed Show.

She advises us all to act quickly as the president want to FAST TRACK it!

She tells us to go to this site: Expose The TPP.

http://www.exposethetpp.org/TPPImpactsYou.html

It's a ONE page site that explains the TPP.


 

cali

(114,904 posts)
29. at what cost?
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 11:48 AM
Sep 2013

The NAFTA investor arbitration system (the same is true for all other U.S. FTAs) allows investors to sue over the laws of nations and municipalities in binding tribunals that heavily favor corporations/investors These include environmental laws, copyright laws, etc. For instance the ongoing Philip Morris NAFTA case against Uruguay.

Philip Morris v. Uruguay: Will investor-State arbitration send restrictions on tobacco marketing up in smoke?

http://www.iisd.org/itn/2011/07/12/philip-morris-v-uruguay-will-investor-state-arbitration-send-restrictions-on-tobacco-marketing-up-in-smoke/

There are many, many more Investor-State cases like this. This isn't even the most outrageous.

Here's another. It's a humdinger. It's pending

<snip>

However, as we discussed earlier, the public crossing would create competition for the privately-owned Ambassador Bridge, which also connects Detroit to Windsor and generates an estimated $60 million in annual toll revenues.

Bridge owner Matty Moroun has been pursuing approval for a second span of his own, but as Granholm said this morning, "Canada only supports the Detroit River International Crossing" and believes the proposed location of the second Ambassador span would be "too disruptive in Windsor."

In a statement released earlier today, Detroit International Bridge Co. attorney Patrick Moran explained the company will file a NAFTA claim against the Canadian government, suggesting the publicly-backed bridge would unfairly punish the private company.

“The Canadian government is using its power inappropriately to coerce the Michigan Legislature into adopting legislation necessary to ensure the implementation of the DRIC project to the detriment of necessary infrastructure projects in Canada and the U.S. ,” Moran said. “Not only is it clear that the DRIC project is not needed at this time, the Canadian government is trying to use its authority to steal a viable for-profit business from an American businessman.”

<snip>

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2010/04/ambassador_bridge_company_file.html

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
34. This is about giving corporations dominion over a nation's laws....
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 12:23 PM
Sep 2013

Say a country elects someone who raises the minimum wage from 35¢ a day to 75¢ a day. This law will make it possible for some pencil pusher to calculate the drop in profits and then some t-shirt maker can sue that country for the difference.

whathehell

(29,151 posts)
37. Lori Wallach, Trade Attorney for Public Citizen's Global Trade Watch is on Ed Schultz explaining TPP
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 12:56 PM
Sep 2013

Last edited Fri Sep 20, 2013, 03:44 PM - Edit history (1)

right now.

If you can't access it now, go to their site. Public Citizen, Global Trade Watch. It's a horrible "deal"

for the citizens of ANY country and we really NEED to know about it.

This is the site Ms. Wallach advises us to go to...it's a ONE pager that explains it all:


http://www.exposethetpp.org/TPPImpactsYou.html

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
39. +1 It's predatory, plain and simple,
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 12:59 PM
Sep 2013

which is why they are trying so hard to keep the negotiations secret.

whathehell

(29,151 posts)
46. Yes, and I just heard Wallach on the radio. She says we need to "spread the word" as the president
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 03:29 PM
Sep 2013

trying to "fast track" it through congress!!

She says the entire thing, the TPP, can be explained in a ONE page handout at:


http://www.exposethetpp.org/TPPImpactsYou.html


Please, people...This bill is Dangerous -- Among many OTHER "new rules", it mandates that

the US import food with LESS safety regulations and NO required labels.

It quite literally replaces national sovereignty with CORPORATE sovereignty.

On top of this, there is yet ANOTHER secret "trade" deal in the making targeting

Europe and it's just like the TPP. We must all get on top of this!

whathehell

(29,151 posts)
48. Very much so, and it's dangerous even beyond that, as it will, among other things, diminish
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 03:39 PM
Sep 2013

safety regulations in imported food while requiring no labels, the environment and God Knows What Else.

Lori Wallach, director of Global Trade Watch for Public Citizen was just explaining it on the Ed Schultz

radio show...She will be on The Ed Show Tonight on MSNBC. She says it is QUITE dangerous and that we must

get involved with stopping it asap as the president is trying to "fast track" it!

Her advise is to go to this link: ExposeTheTpp.org. It explains the TPP in only ONE Page,

which would make it good for handouts, etc.


truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
51. Under NAFTA provisions, in the 1990's, the state of Calif was forced to pay
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 04:06 PM
Sep 2013

over 500 millions of dollars for NOT buying a product.

The product was MTBE, a gas additive proven to be harmful, and there was no way around the enforcement provisions of Chapter 11, NAFTA. The money went off to a MTBE supplier up in Canada.

The state of California could sure use that money right about now.

Faryn Balyncd

(5,125 posts)
54. Can Congress legally pass a law that strips federal & state courts of their constitution powers?
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 04:39 PM
Sep 2013


The answer is pretty obvious.

But it's going to be a tough row for democracy and the constitution to defeat the forces of evil and their corrupt collaborators.

The lobbyists who wrote this into the law, and the puppets in Congress who voted to give them their way(in most cases without even reading the bill) deserve to be put in stocks on the National Mall until the Supreme Court does their sworn duty (& declares this travesty unconstitutional) [fat chance], or until a decent Congress repeal the law.

















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