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[kentuck]

This message was self-deleted by its author (kentuck) on Wed Sep 25, 2013, 02:54 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[HERVEPA]

1. All the gungeoneers.

[hack89]

3. Big mistake opening GD to gun threads

Guns need to go back to the gungeon - just like IP threads they are simple too corrosive and make DU suck

[HERVEPA]

8. Exactly.

[Crunchy Frog]

36. Gun violence is such a pervasive element in today's society

that we really can't not talk about it. It's just not possible to keep it sequestered in its own little ghetto.

[hack89]

43. Gun discusions on DU are not calm, rational discusions that actually change peoples minds

there are two entrenched sides talking past each other with a lot of insults and vitriol tossed in.

[Crunchy Frog]

95. Nevertheless

It is a pervasive element in today's society, and it is necessary for a progressive community to be able to discuss it openly.

Because emotions about something run high is not a justification for cutting off discussion. If that were the case, we never would have even gotten to the point of abolishing slavery.

[L0oniX]

52. Complained about that many times. Finally ...trash word helped a lot.

[valerief]

31. BANG! That's the big evil here. nt

[Mojorabbit]

32. Broad brush.

I was a member of Code Pink, protested almost every weekend, and I own guns and am a woman.

[madinmaryland]

57. Fortunately the mod's have clamped down on DU'ers using NRA talking points.

[etherealtruth]

74. I heartily agree

I am not talking about the liberal's here that happen to own a gun ... or even some actual gun enthusiasts (on this subject we will never agree or find common ground), but with those folk that are here for a discussion of liberal beliefs and ideals (and happen to express their beliefs about guns), they add to the DU discourse

The ones i think of are the ones that post largely about guns ... the ones that just can't help themselves and are compelled to swarm any thread or discussion that attempts to discuss gun violence in the US. The ones that responded with glee when two Democratic Colorado state reps were recalled and replaced by Republicans. Those are the gungeoneers ... their largest cause is not civil rights, not poverty, not social justice, not gay (human) rights, not women's reproductive choice ... no their main issue is blocking anything that could limit, monitor or control their use of guns in any way.

I don't think I would join this new "tolerant of gun nuttery and the right wing NRA" DU

[Eleanors38]

78. I think the gun controllers/banners have increased the corrosive effect on DU...

They got their own one-way group, then got carte blanche in GD and have heightened the smear and personal attack levels to such a fever pitch, that this approach, IMO, has spread to non-gun issues.

Frankly, the Ads share some responsibility by unleashing the dogs and writing it off to the invisible hand of the jury system.

I fully agree with those who want gun issues back in the Gungeon and Castle Bansalot, and I think most pro-2A Democrats AND DUers in general would favor this as well. But, the controller/banners, IMO, want gun issues in GD so they can continue their campaign of stimatizing fellow DUers, in hopes of completely throttling open discourse in the Second, and the Ads seem content (so far) with the situation.

I respect the Ads for establishing this site, and making it into a wide-ranging forum for debate. But they are not above criticism.

[etherealtruth]

88. I agree that civility and discussion have been degraded by the 'gun" issue in GD

The problem I see is that gun control has typically been considered a liberal cause (I realize that there are some very liberal, wonderful gun owners) and the acceptance that the NRA is a right wing group (clearly their almost exclusive support of Republicans is evidence of this) ... I think it is hard for folk with very liberal views to come to a a 'liberal' discussion board and be assailed by what we (I) consider a right wing point of view (I can't imagine anti-choice posts being tolerated like some decidedly right wing like gun posts).

Conversely, I can't imagine how upsetting and disheartening many of the anti gun posts and posters (I am one of them) are to truly liberal members of this site that (for whatever reason) are strident gun supporters. I have no doubt they have been made to feel "less than" (despite true liberal Democratic convictions and actions overall). This is very unfortunate and the discourse at DU is further degraded by silencing these liberal voices.

I am consistently thrilled when I see someone I consider a gun zealot writing eloquently and filled with compassion on other issues ... as an example my #1 issue :poverty.

In my "real life' I have friends that are "gun nuts" (not really, they like guns but do support limits) and plenty that are as strongly anti-gun as I am. Fortunately for us, it is not our primary topic of discussion AND we have the luxury of knowing and respecting each other before the conversation starts

[Eleanors38]

92. I appreciate your reasonable post. I have posted on labor

issues and different approaches to poverty's cinsequences, esp. crime. Part if the problem is few folks discuss this, favoring some hate fest (at pro-2A folks' expense) because some kid got shot while playing with hus Dad's pistol. The same also applied.to other issues as well, but the legitimized hatred exhibited -- without constraint -- toward 2A defenders is constant and, I'm afraid, is policy and strategy.

Of course, the response to this is double down.

One of my main purposes for emphasizing 2A on DU is to disabuse liberals of the notion that they must mumble chants to the God of Bans in order to be a real liberal, and I think "we" in the Gungeon have succeeded in large measure if for no other reason than those viewing the gun "debates" can contrast the vitriolic attacks with respectful argument. And believe, the dichotemy is great

[Eleanors38]

99. I appreciate your reasonable post. I have posted on labor

issues and different approaches to poverty's consequences, esp. crime. Part the problem is few folks discuss this, favoring some hate fest (at pro-2A folks' expense) because some kid got shot while playing with his Dad's pistol. The same also applies to other issues as well, but the legitimized hatred exhibited -- without constraint -- toward 2A defenders is constant and, I'm afraid, policy and strategy.

Of course, the response to this is double down.

One of my main purposes for emphasizing 2A on DU is to disabuse liberals of the notion that they must mumble chants to the God of Bans in order to be a real liberal, and I think "we" in the Gungeon have succeeded in large measure if for no other reason than those viewing the gun "debates" can contrast the vitriolic attacks with respectful argument. And believe me, the dichotemy is great.

I think it is Essential that Democrats jettison the continuing national policy of gun bans. It is so destructive for a party which purports to be the voice of the poor and struggling middle classes to have to drag that issue around like a bad smell, esp. when guns is merely a proxy for other unfortunate hates Democrats have lately indulged: Southerners, rural folks, any number of states (Florida is a favorite despite going for Obama twice), and a host of other negative stereotypes. It is a far bigger problem, the gun issue, than folks give credit for, not just on DU, but in the body politic in general. As I have pointed out before about gun control's alleged Democratic "credentials:" The Zombies band had charted all their hits before "guns" was first mentioned in a Democratic Party Platform (1968). Thanks for the discussion.

[liberal N proud]

2. It has changed but...

It still holds some of that purpose that we all joined for in the early years. I'm not sure it is just because of the sheer number of members or the loss of some key players that has changed the dynamic.

In the early years, only facts were accepted here, laced with opinion, but there are times when facts go out the window here. If we could get back to that integrity of only accepting the facts, we would be better off.

There is no other place on the internet like DU.

[Jackpine Radical]

20. Factitude is not always easy to discern.

[kentuck]

21. I remember some of our biggest disagreements were over Bill Clinton's "achievements"...

...and some of his screw-ups.

They were discussed with honesty and not covered up because he was a Democrat. He was treated fairly but honestly.

[1000words]

22. Nader brought out the crazy, though

The obsession over "Freepers" was a delight, as well.

[Jackpine Radical]

23. I think that level of discourse still goes on here.

It's just harder to find within all the chaff.

When I joined, there were less than 6,000 people registered. There are now maybe 30 times that many people posting here.

[Divernan]

44. Level of discourse improved greatly when I put 25 of the worst snarksters on ignore.

I still let 2 or 3 of them through, as canaries in the coal mine, so to speak, to get a read on the latest insults/propaganda. Other than their sporadic hissy fits, what I find showing up on my screen is fairly civilized debate.

It was urged in the earlier days of DU, and remains true today - don't feed the trolls, it only encourages them.

[Jackpine Radical]

63. I'm honored to have apparently avoided your list.

[Divernan]

80. Nobody who supports Warren would be on my ignore list!

[Skittles]

101. I keep a couple of the nitwits off Ignore for sheer entertainment purposes

[TexasTowelie]

110. Thank you.

I hope that I'm giving you some good laughs.

[Skittles]

111. whassup TexasTowlie?

90's and then a two-week fall and then winter!! YEE HAW!!!

[TexasTowelie]

115. I'm still waiting to hear the closing date on the property in Brenham.

I have nearly everything packed and bought a new cat carrier today, but I'm in a holding pattern until the title company provides the date. I'm fairly certain that the close will occur next week and hope that I can arrange an agreement with the buyer to stay here until Saturday, October 5 so I can get some assistance with the move. Nearly all of my possessions are going into storage while I stay at a hotel in Irving to hunt for an apartment.

I'm looking forward to get to work again and I also hope that it is in my chosen profession. I might have to take a temp job for awhile to keep things going though. So I'm kind of glad that the cooler weather is coming while I'm moving and pounding the pavement. Autumn is my favorite time of the year.

[Skittles]

116. wishing you good luck

yes INDEED

[DCBob]

28. Was President Clinton villified in the same way as President Obama is here?

I doubt it... even though I think he did things that are more right-leaning than Obama.

[kentuck]

30. "Vilified"?

The truth about NAFTA, Welfare Reform, Telecommunications Act, Repeal of Glass-Steagall, etc were discussed in a more honest and open way, in my opinion.

[geek tragedy]

40. Clinton was effectively out of office when this place was founded. nt

[liberal N proud]

64. Exactly

[Hydra]

123. He might have been if we had the kind of information flow we do here now

But DU didn't even exist during his tenure, and I gave him full support(I was in high school) but I'm less than pleased with what I learned after the fact. The Monica issue I defended him on still don't have a problem with with, but NAFTA and Glass-Steagel repeal did immeasurable damage.

I think a lot of people miss a critical distinction when they see complaints about Dem Presidents and lump everyone together. Dems criticize on policies that hurt ordinary people while Reps criticize things that lead to social progress.

[murielm99]

25. This is true.

Everyone used to insist on a link for EVERYTHING. I got in the habit of doing that.

I still learn a lot here, and that has not changed. We can still educate each other, and spread informed opinions in our lives. Every little bit helps.

[sgtbenobo]

4. It seems to me that....

....DU has split into to camps.

There are those of us that believe that we as American individuals have to change the way we look and behave in order for things to get better. And others that believe we merely have to be managed better so we can do as we please.

Regardless, the world is going to move on with or without us.

I stick with the first crowd.


Carry on.

[DrDan]

5. joined in 2001 also

seems to me the "really big" change came in the run-up to the 2008 election. Lost a lot of veterans during that period.

[justabob]

11. 2004 was no picnic either

I had a different account back then, but I was here. I know the ABB (anyone but Bush) craziness started a lot of the cracks that are now chasms between the various camps here.

[KittyWampus]

6. Funny, the biggest change I see is lack of Moderators.

[Capt. Obvious]

10. We have juries now

We moderate ourselves.

[Posteritatis]

14. Or immoderate ourselves often enough. (nt)

[L0oniX]

53. Yea ...that system is a bad joke.

[L0oniX]

54. The mod system was light years better than the clown jury system we have now.

[Eleanors38]

83. I tend in that direction. I suspect the moderator system

required a lot of personal and administrative energy when compared with the automated jury system, and that is why the Ads opted for it. For at least that reason, it is understandable why the jury system was implemented.

[kcr]

139. Agree 100%

Should be interesting to see how their recent improvements affect it. They should just admit defeat already though.

[War Horse]

56. Same here

Lurked from about 2001 or so, joined in 2003-4, left for a while and then joined again later (defunct e-mail address after the last reg.) This place sorely needs mods, IMO.

[1000words]

7. In the early days, there was a clear cause that encouraged unity

The Party is now fractured along ideological lines that weren't nearly so much in the forefront.

[xiamiam]

9. Barack Obama with a D behind his name

many of the same problems that we had under Bush and then some (like the NDAA and war on whistleblowers and journalists)
The difference now, is that it is the guy we voted for is doing the things we voted for him not to do..so many on this board support the D and refuse to acknowledge the presidents kill list, or drones, or the nsa or clapper or Geithner or Summers , etc. etc.

It has been the single most divisive experience in my 9 years of DU.

[sgtbenobo]

12. You've hit the nail on the head!

You are correct on all counts.


Carry on!

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

16. Shhhhhhhhh...

Why can't you just get in line, shut up and vote when ordered?

[Nay]

19. ^^this^^ I am appalled at the number of Dems who now think that Pres. Obama can

do not wrong. (Or if he does wrong, you're not allowed to bitch about it.) It's very disheartening. I voted for Obama twice and cried with happiness when he was elected twice, but I'm relegated to the haters, I guess. It means that the human race is pretty much racing toward its own oblivion. Sure, there may be a few hundred thousand of us left to make stone axes or whatnot, but we cannot seem to face truths without turning away and embracing emo instead. It will be our downfall.

[DeSwiss]

26. BINGO! n/t

[winter is coming]

27. That, to me, is the true definition of ODS.

People who now try to rationalize policies they condemned when Bush was in office. The idea that we should be looking towards the good of our country and criticize any politician who undermines it, regardless of party, completely eludes them.

[Skittles]

29. yup

they absolutely DISGUST me

[Mojorabbit]

34. ^^This^^ nt

[geek tragedy]

37. So, its' Obama supporters who ruined DU. nt

[IveWornAHundredPants]

62. Come off the stage for just a moment, please.

[YoungDemCA]

114. Why does it matter?

What does the "D" next to the name do?

Does that legitimize drone strikes? Does that legitimize the NSA programs? Does that legitimize Wall Street getting away with pillaging the global economy and making out like bandits?

Please, tell me how the "D" next to the name makes everything OK.

[geek tragedy]

121. Who said everything the President has done was good and admirable?

But, people act like fucking drone strikes are the most goddamn important issue ever in the history of progressive politics, when they're not even top 1000.

the same people who carp on and on and on about drone strikes can't be bothered to actually acknowledge the good stuff.

[Dawgs]

124. Yep. Pretty much. n/t

[geek tragedy]

126. Yes, those actual Democrats totally ruined the place! nt

[Dawgs]

128. I never said they were Democrats. n/t

[geek tragedy]

129. They're Democrats whether you think so or not.

Just a reminder that Obama supporters are the Democratic party and certainly its base.

Polling constantly shows that Obama's support comes from:

young
of color
women
liberal
Democrats
educated

Obama's detractors tend to be

old
white
men
conservative
Republicans
less educated

Opinion does not trump reality.

[Dawgs]

130. Obama supporters are members of the Democratic party, but they are not Democrats. n/t

[geek tragedy]

132. Ted Cruz would approve of that logic

However, the vast majority of blacks and Latinos that you've declared to be non-Democrats would say it's batshit insane.

[Dawgs]

141. The vast majority of blacks of Latinos are being ignored by the Democratic leaders.

It's not my fault if they don't get it.

[geek tragedy]

143. I'm sure they'd love to hear from someone like you

how they 'don't get it.'

They're totally not used to hearing that line from white guys on the Right.

[LondonReign2]

133. There you go again

Claiming there are "actual Democrats" and then there are progressives & liberals.

sigh

[geek tragedy]

136. The two groups overlap quite a bit.

Just like "Obama supporters" overlap with both "actual Democrats" and "liberals/progressives."

Some people for whatever reason think that those who support the leader of the Democratic party are not Democrats.

[LondonReign2]

138. As do DLCers and Obama Supporters

[geek tragedy]

140. Yes and no.

It's very likely that most DLCers are indeed Obama supporters. It's also impossible for any significant share of Obama supporters to be DLCers, since (a) the DLC is defunct and (b) DLCers were always a very small group of people, not having any grass roots support but rather being a think tank/elected official club rather than a popular movement.

[LondonReign2]

142. I refer here not to DLC as an organization, but from the

Third Way policy perspective.

[geek tragedy]

144. what exactly do you mean by the "third way policy perspective?"

To some people, it means Liebermanism.

To others, it means failing to behave like leftwing Ted Cruz's.

What is your definition? How can I tell a third wayer from a moderate from a liberal pragmatist?

[WorseBeforeBetter]

41. That's been my experience as well.

I almost want his term over because I'm so sick of his rabid followers. But God only knows what 2016 will hold...

[LondonReign2]

135. Indeed

I rather like Obama (if not a number of his policies), its his most ardent fans that drive me crazy.

I also rather like biblical Jesus, but again not his fake followers so much.

Lots of parallels.

[azurnoir]

45. yep and sadly predictable too

I wonder though what if there had been a DU in 1996 when Clinton made his (in)famous Welfare reform?

[MissDeeds]

47. Excellent post

I took a long break from DU for this very reason. Our values and core beliefs should not change when the letter behind the name changes. Right is right, and wrong is wrong - period.

[Maven]

51. Yup

[L0oniX]

55. ^^^AMEN^^^

[RC]

60. Yes, true that.

We never had, or had need for a BCG - Bill Clinton Group. The BOG appeared after segments of DU shifted to the Right and needed an echo chamber to survive here.

[Arkansas Granny]

66. Exactly! Blind allegiance.

[smokey nj]

72. You've hit the nail on the head.

[Eleanors38]

84. Frustration with President Obama has greatly affected the tenor here.

[truebluegreen]

91. Exactly right; well said.

[Egalitarian Thug]

100. +18 Right there. n/t

[YoungDemCA]

113. Agreed. This. Yes.

Well said.

Etc.

[Hobo]

119. A Hater is gonna Hate...

Thanks for your input......


Hobo

[uponit7771]

120. Obama = Bush (or anything close) = bullshit

[sibelian]

131. Yes, it's sad.

Very.

[Uncle Joe]

13. Virtually everything runs in cycles, remain tenacious and keep up the good fight,

despite any diminisher (s)' attempt to bring you down or kill your ideals.

Thanks for the thread, kentuck.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

18. +1 on cycles and tenacity. nt

[Mika]

15. Back "in the day" we used to debate to inform, now.. WAY too many alert to kill debate.

[Hydra]

17. DU got message control

It was always there- I had posts deleted in 2006 for questioning our country's commitment to the Nuremberg principles we so loudly asserted after WWII because orders were given to torture people by the Bush Admin.

Now the message control comes via about 20 posters. Luckily, it's not working, and we have the ignore button, but it makes DU look bad.

[Aldo Leopold]

24. Hey, kentuck, I like this post and agree

with most of your observations. 'Course, I've only been visiting daily since 2004, and only been banned under a different user ID once, but something I would add in my 9 years of experience here is that there seems to be a lot more WHINING now than ever before.

[MichiganVote]

33. Back then Democrats weren't selling out seniors and little kids.

[tridim]

85. And today Democrats aren't selling out seniors and little kids. Quit lying. nt

[Crunchy Frog]

35. I'd say that the biggest change is that it has gotten vastly bigger.

When I first found the site, in the run up to the Iraq invasion, it was small enough that I could keep track of all the threads as they came up, and got to "know" and recognize virtually all the posters.

Now I see people with thousands of posts whom I've never seen before, and can't even begin to keep up with a fraction of the activity here.

I would say that in the time since I've gotten here, I've become a good deal more jaded and cynical, and skeptical about my ability to have any real influence on events in this country. I also don't spend nearly as much time on here as I used to.

I wouldn't say that the overall composition of the posters has changed that much, except possibly with respect to the effects of the gungeon. There have always been snarkers and flamewarriors and trolls, as well as "conservative Democrats". It's just that there's more overall as there are more posters overall.

Of course, I wasn't here at the very beginning, but this is what I've observed since I started lurking in early 2003. (Jeezus, that means I've been here for more than ten years!)

[CTyankee]

38. I came to DU in the euphoria of Kerry's seeming progress over dubya during

the 2004 campaign. DU was really stretching its wings. We were ecstatic. We were going to win the White House! I remember practically skipping to my voting place on an early November day with plenty of sun and moderate temps. And DU was a part of that experience. I had a political online community and it was great!

By the next day we had a hard landing. It began to dawn on me in January, 2005. I remember being in the depths of depression. This was bad, real bad. I realized that we had 4 more years of that guy.

But we had Stephanie Miller, Al Franken, and DU! All of which I discovered in the space of a few months! I was recently retired, had a part time job I loved, and was politically engaged on DU. It was a happy time, despite our loss with Kerry, because we banded together with hope.

Then came the economic collapse. People were losing jobs right and left. It was scary. My husband eventually was laid off from the city government. There were health problems. It was a hard transition.

Throughout it all, DU was there. I connected with so many people who saw things my way, even tho I was retired and could no longer meet my fellow liberals in the office. DU became that place. I am eternally grateful that it did.

Thanks for the memory and for the post, kentuck...a nice walk down memory lane for me!

[geek tragedy]

39. Democrats started winning elections and having governing authority/responsibility.

It's a lot easier to unite in anger than it is to hold coalitions together while governing.

DU was an opposition website. Well, that's no problem when the party in power is the Republicans.

Gets a lot more complicated when Democrats start owning policy outcomes.

[jwirr]

42. And we did make a difference. And hopefully will continue. We seem to do better fighting the enemy

than we do when the person we are lobbying is one of our own.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

46. I wish the following could be up front and center

"When we were the 10% and few people in the country or the Congress were on our side, we only fought harder. We did not surrender and we never thought that we were insignificant and didn't matter. We fought through the "free-speech zones" and we communicated personally with the Democratic leaders in the Congress and Senate. If I thought we could no longer make a difference, I would be gone."

If these communications are still ongoing, they are hidden by so many divisive threads that I never find them.

[Gore1FL]

48. I remember those days.

I remember pushing the threads with the most interesting titles to the top page (and sinking the "not-probably-the-best-to-show-on-TV&quot when Skinner was on C-Span.

I remember we organized a successful sponsor letter-writing campaign response to a Boston radio show. I don't remember what they said, but I remember finding the sponsors and writing sample letters.

That seems like a lifetime ago.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

118. Nice to see you're still here.

I lurked about from the start before daring to post. You were the one who welcomed me to DU back in '01. I always liked your name because Gore did win Florida.

Yes, it does feel like a lifetime ago.

[MrMickeysMom]

49. kentuck... I know we've all seen that, but...

We (well, okay, I have to speak for ME) HAVE HAD to change with each passing year, and it would appear that the ebbs and tides of of good and bad behavior go along with the age of the board. Yeah, you bet snark... A lot of us are going through a lot of internal strife with the road to recovery after Bush and frankly, it's showing us that BushCo runs much deeper inside Washington than we wanted it to.

Regardless ...

I think it's still the best format of discussion across all the internets and I thank you for helping me with this discussion.

[kentuck]

50. The loss of institutional memory is rather sad...

...and to see it minimized by some that never had it in the first place is rather depressing. It's almost like 12 years of work is going down the drain...

[KoKo]

86. I have those days...also...

But you know...I think we are climbing.......very slowly...but carefully...with more help..than in the past...OUT of the MUCK.

It's not so visible yet...but, first step was the "Pull Back" from Syria Strike...that the "Resistance" has not been given credit for...because we might "still Strike"...and it hangs like a Guillotine over our heads as to when the strike will be ordered. But, that Cameron couldn't get his Parliament and NATO Refused and "The People" put their Congresscritters heads in a Vise" if they supported going in there with Strikes.

Well.. that gives me hope...no matter HOW it's Spun...all reports I've read from sites everywhere seemed to FLAG this as a CHANGE in US Policy that has folks nervous in the MIC.

But, then...we've been fooled before with some glimmers of hope ...but not as Spectacular an achievement as how WE/Everywhere....stopped that Strike!

[kentuck]

90. I do agree...

that there are "glimmers of hope". The decision to negotiate with Syria, at Russia's request, does seem like a hopeful change? Also, the possible talks between Iran and the US, which Israel in not real pleased with, could be another ray of hope from what our country has experienced for the last dozen years.

[RC]

106. There are still a few of us long timers around that refuse to be intimated into leaving.

Institutional memory is good and is needed to remember our roots, regardless of those that would rewrite those roots, and/or the actual path taken to get here from there.

[MrMickeysMom]

108. Yes, it does seem that way...

I see examples of this every single day inside the ugliness of local govt issues I deal with. Why haven't the people bothered to even know, much less figure out? How distracted have the American public become? Does it take this much frustrating, zombie consuming debt slaving, non-news reading, talking point driven pinging INACTION to drag us to the bottom so that we... what? Have to fight and scratch our way to the top extra hard, cause a bunch of dumb-asses couldn't catch on fast enough?

I know we're being dragged... Part of me detaches and observes the phenomena and part of me snarks and screeches and fights in ways that I haven't gotten arrested (yet).

Somehow.... it's not going all the way down the drain, I think... it's just going far enough for the sleeping beauties to wake up. It'll be a god-damned fight, any way you look at it.

I'm trying to understand how organisms evolve in the span of the universe while trying not to indulge in the awfulness of it.

[KoKo]

58. For YOU, Kentuck! From Long Times...here....

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/06KJr8-Wc8k?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[kentuck]

59. Thanks, KoKo01!

You're one of the keepers!

[KoKo]

94. She does a nice version of this....I think..

[kentuck]

98. Oh, Yes!

Gladys and the Pips..

Very touching.

[Warren DeMontague]

61. no more DUzys.

Seriously, that's my main complaint.

[Rex]

65. We are no longer the party of resistance.

We are the party in power now and things are different.

[bhikkhu]

67. Exactly true

I still remember in 2008 listening to Obama's campaign speeches and looking at the numbers, and realizing we could actually win this thing. That's a long way from 2004, when it seemed like the repugs had successfully stolen another election and had things so rigged we might never see another fair election, or another democratic majority.

In any case, the main thought in 2008 was that things were going to change, and that the position of a party in power and actually responsible for running things was harder than that of a party in permanent minority; when one is responsible for the consequences of one's positions and statements, those must be more carefully weighed and considered. There was more knee-jerk reaction before, where now its better to look at the whole picture and see more clearly how things work, and how best to approach issues, and respect that people in power (the president, primarily, but also the senate) are considering their decisions in the same way.

[KoKo]

69. But...But...If what you say is true...then WHERE will COME the RESISTANCE?

Where is it? Any RESISTANCE here on DU get's swiftly dispatched as "Obama Haters" ..Racists...Firebaggers, Kucinich Flunkies, Clueless Fools as to how America Works!...and on and on and on.

I wonder how this can ever be resolved?

[Rex]

71. I think I've finally discovered where all the irrational hatred for

people in GD that dare critique the POTUS is coming from...I was hoping it was just some disruptors, but it seems it is coming from the BOG.

Go figure.

[KoKo]

76. I think though...that there so much "confusion" out there...it's hard to know

which way to go these days. I think folks try to go back to what they were comfortable with in the Rhetoric of our Political Elected...but, it gets thinner and thinner to see how little they seem to support Democratic Ideals of the "New Deal" type.

I think we feel ADRIFT....

[kentuck]

81. "He goes down to the bog to warm his feet..."

Aqualung...........

[KoKo]

87. That's Quite a Listen...Thanks!

The lyrics to read..also.!

"Warm his Feet!" YES....

[Rex]

82. The Third Way has made way too much advancement into the Dem agenda.

I agree completely that people fall back into their comfort zones when stressed or frustrated with what they see and cannot dismiss. However, getting crazy like claiming the left and libertarians are best friends now or not being able to use critical thinking skills when they are needed the most will not help the cause of progress.

It seems all we can agree on is progress, just not with the way to get there. I get that. There is too much confusion out there...that is an agenda at play. As you remember all to well played against us during the BFEE years.

Propaganda is propaganda and a lot of people have bought into the program.

[xiamiam]

73. Yes Koko. we will rise from the muck of it but not without sharing the not so pleasant truth

with each other.

[KoKo]

79. I hope we get to that point where we can realize as Dem Party...

...that Not So Pleasant Truth. And, if we can't do it as Democrats...then we will need to go other directions. At this point our Party (which I've thrown lost money to) needs to be thinking about the future. They have thought for awhile it was a Fusion with Repugs for Governance....

It's not working, IMHO...

[TransitJohn]

68. Good post, kentuck.

It's devolved into a state akin to 4chan or xbox live. Shame, really, because at the start it was well on its way to becoming the premier left blog on the internet, ahead of Atrios, FDL, and the like. I blame the various purges we've suffered over the years; and the GLBT purges in particular.

[mahina]

70. I remember that day and seeing the Democraticunderground.com banner on CPAN

and went right to my computer and found DU. Through tears. I lurked for years.

Everything changes. We are fluid, we are changing, we've won some. Who could have forseen, on that horrible day, that we'd be here today? I knew W would get us in multiple wars, feeding his monsters on blood and money.

What will it take to improve this place now?

[KoKo]

75. Maybe.."this place...DU" is in a mess..for a purpose. We can't see it now...

but, maybe we are reflection of our Country these days. In a Mess...

Reflective thinking about how we've been manipulated and lied to by both parties?

That folks are wondering WHO to TRUST?

[Warpy]

77. Lots of newbies, most of whom are great

but some of whom are likely recovering Republicans who aren't so great.

It's taking them time and discipline to know that this isn't a free for all spitefest the way it is over at Free Republic.

My ignore list gets longer and longer, especially with so many of them gravitating to gun threads.

[DFab420]

89. The allowing of off color racist statements as "challenging the President"

[KoKo]

93. As Bob Dylan Said...so many old years ago: "Only a Pawn in Their Game."

Only A Pawn In Their Game by Bob Dylan
Lyrics

A bullet from the back of a bush took Medgar Evers’ blood
A finger fired the trigger to his name
A handle hid out in the dark
A hand set the spark
Two eyes took the aim
Behind a man’s brain
But he can’t be blamed
He’s only a pawn in their game

A South politician preaches to the poor white man
“You got more than the blacks, don’t complain.
You’re better than them, you been born with white skin,” they explain.
And the Negro’s name
Is used it is plain
For the politician’s gain
As he rises to fame
And the poor white remains
On the caboose of the train
But it ain’t him to blame
He’s only a pawn in their game

The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid
And the marshals and cops get the same
But the poor white man’s used in the hands of them all like a tool
He’s taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
’Bout the shape that he’s in
But it ain’t him to blame
He’s only a pawn in their game

From the poverty shacks, he looks from the cracks to the tracks
And the hoofbeats pound in his brain
And he’s taught how to walk in a pack
Shoot in the back
With his fist in a clinch
To hang and to lynch
To hide ’neath the hood
To kill with no pain
Like a dog on a chain
He ain’t got no name
But it ain’t him to blame
He’s only a pawn in their game.

Today, Medgar Evers was buried from the bullet he caught
They lowered him down as a king
But when the shadowy sun sets on the one
That fired the gun
He’ll see by his grave
On the stone that remains
Carved next to his name
His epitaph plain:
Only a pawn in their game
http://www.bobdylan.com/us/songs/only-pawn-their-game

&feature=player_detailpage

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/DtrC3rMP1lQ?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[LondonReign2]

137. Can you point to some of those?

Because I imagine anyone making racist attacks on the Preseident would be TS'ed rather quickly.

On the other hand, I see many instances of people claiming any criticism of the President is due to racism.

[WCGreen]

96. I can't quit you DU....

[A-Schwarzenegger]

97. More meaner, less funnyer.

[Samantha]

102. There was a lot more original threads penned by some truly intelligent analytical thinkers earlier

and although it was a very passionate discussion board, that passion was usually directed toward the support or opposition of an issue or a politician, rather than a personality participating in the thread.

It also appears to me that we have a lot more professional antagonists participating at this site whose mission is to convince people to turn on our own.

Sam

[KoKo]

107. Good Point...it was enlightening...and I, personally learned alot from

those posters.

I see some of that on other places I read, these days. I always wonder who they might have been here on DU before we got into the Campaign Wars where so much was often shut down or discouraged because a Campaign was going on..

There was a more diversified Dem Mix. These days here, it seems we are an Armed Camp or Fight Club...because of the threat of another War and the constant battles with the RW...which start to get stale when we wonder what our OWN Party is up to...and yet...with the decline FREE PRESS theres so little news we get at home. We need to go overseas and often that news is not acceptable here on DU for whatever reason.

[last1standing]

103. I clicked on this thread to say that DU is the same as it ever was.

Instead I'm agreeing with you. It's been so long since those days that its hard to remember a time when most of us actually supported progressive causes and each other.

Thanks for pointing out something that I needed to remember.

[baby_bear]

104. Hello kentuck

I signed on in 2001 as sierra_moon; was active daily for several years but the redundant din finally blew me away. I check in
once in a while now.

It was really a grand place here for a few short years. A lot of us actually made friends and even met up locally here in Seattle.

It's a different world.

Glad to see your post. Thanks.

[bvar22]

122. Hi, sierra_moon.

I remember you from the old days.
We had a very active group in Minnesota too.
We had regular meetings, and attended political events, campaign events and War Protests as a group from DU.

I laugh at the meme being catapulted by conservatives that DU isn't activism,
or that all members of DU do is sit behind keyboards and whine.

[grahamhgreen]

105. Biggest change: the think tanks and their 'personas' found us, and want to control the framing.

[David__77]

109. It was inevitable.

It was from a number of factors. The internet is more pervasive now... 2001 when I joined was 12 years ago... go back 12 years before that, and we're in the pre-internet era. The elites become more acclimated to online messaging, and more masses of people became engaged. Further, there's a Democratic president now, and it was absolutely clear that the election of a Democrat, while obviously a good thing, would lead to ideological and political passivity among many progressives.

[Coyotl]

112. We made a difference when *****Official LIVE blog threads were covering Bush oversight hearings

This place was like ten investigative journalists working in tandem followed by Congressional aides LIVE during the hearings. We were practically directing questioning of witnesses, it seemed at times.

[madrchsod]

117. people with total lack of respect for others opinions

jury system sorta` sucks. i liked the moderator system better.

but there`s always the lounge!

[Rex]

125. Looks like we are about to have a huge change and for the better!

nt.

[CJCRANE]

127. Too much introspection about DU and DUers*.

I prefer more breaking news stories and issues-based discussion.

*I.e. the cliquey posts in GD that try to separate out DUers into different groups.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

134. Let me sign up to your last paragraph: DU does not make a major difference.

DU is a good place to talk to and argue with people, but it is folly to believe that it has significant impact on the course of American politics. People who believe that it can make a major difference are, quite simply, wrong, and have been all along.

If you want to make a difference then a) get involved in electoral politics or major attempts to influence it, or b) donate money or time to a charity (you can find good ones on givewell.org). Internet activism not linked directly to electioneering is not worth a pitcher full of a warm bodily fluid of your choice.