Things WILL NOT get better until the system implodes

[Taverner]

So far we've seen two Presidents and countless pols try to reform the system.

And nothing changed. Not because they didn't work hard, nor because they didn't want it - but because the system is impervious to change.

As the Constitution is written, there will be no change. No hope.

So the best any leftist like me can hope for is for the US Government to finally run out of money, declare bankruptcy and then rebuild from the ashes.

I wish it weren't that way, but change cannot come from within or from outside.

[A HERETIC I AM]

1. How old are you, man?

Last edited Wed Sep 25, 2013, 05:51 PM - Edit history (1)

Or more to the point, how old are your parents?

Because mine, like many DU'ers, lived through the depression.


THAT is what you "hope for" for many tens of millions of Americans, not to mention a large portion of the world.

A repeat of the 1930's, writ large.

No one in their right mind would advocate for such a thing.


(Edited the 3rd sentence)

[Taverner]

3. I am 43. Parents are in their 70s.

I know how long people have been trying to change the system

Two is actually a gross underestimation, since you had FDR, JFK, Henry Wallace, Hugo Black, etc... who tried to change things for the better.

[Alamuti Lotus]

22. Expecting, not advocating

If I understand the OP correctly, that little bit of nuance is of key importance to understanding it.

[A HERETIC I AM]

26. Fair enough, but he did say "Hope for"

Your point is well taken, however, and I shall amend my post above to reflect that.

[oldhippie]

33. "Hope for" kinda sounds like advocating to me .....

How exactly do you nuance it to "expecting"?

[Warpy]

45. Please consider that things only have gotten better in this country

for working people only after a bust. Capitalism runs in boom and bust cycles, the end of the boom cycle being the worst for workers as capitalists want to keep the golden goose laying eggs without feeding her. That's what eventually causes the bust.

There will be another bust, it's guaranteed. It will happen when the next part of the derivatives casino goes bust, and it will. It's very likely to take everything with it because there will be no way to bail the bankers out again. Banks will have to be nationalized in order to keep the system running.

The problem with this stuff is that it tends to starve people to death before it improves at all, so no one in his right mind would ever want it to happen.

However, acknowledging that it will is a different matter, entirely.

[A HERETIC I AM]

59. I disagree.

This is a fairly young country and as far as I know, before the "Great Depression", economic depressions worldwide were commonplace but localized. That is to say that in the early days of the American economy when individual banks were free to print and offer their own script, localized depressions happened with regularity. If a bank in Denver or Cheyenne or Reno went bust (which happened with remarkable frequency compared to today), it primarily affected the depositors of that bank and those that did business with that bank, not the banks in Atlanta or Boston.

It was the advent of the large central bank that both precipitated the great depression and stemmed the frequency of them. Perhaps "precipitated" isn't the right word. I understand the causes and events that led to the GD were much more complex, but I trust you get my point.

The thing is, this country is the backbone of the world economy, agree or disagree, like it or not. And here's why (And I have said this before on DU several times);

The entire financial world knows that Americans, given the chance to do so, will get out of bed early in the morning, seven days a week if necessary, go to work and WILLINGLY PAY TAXES ON THEIR WAGES and they won't burn the capital building down every 2 or 4 or 6 years or riot in the streets every time there is an election. We have had reliable, peaceful exchanges of power between political parties for longer than almost every other democracy on the planet. That means something.

We have a reliable, incredibly liquid, deep and, despite other DU'ers thoughts and opinions to the contrary, WELL REGULATED financial system and a reliable and responsible legal system to back it up.

Those things are why the world clamors to buy US Treasury Securities. Because Americans can be relied upon to go to work and work harder than almost everyone else on the planet and make better goods while doing so and pay their taxes in a timely manner.

The flaw in the system is taxation. No doubt. Lower marginal rates, lower capital gains taxation and lower estate taxes mean wealth accumulates at the top very quickly - within a generation, as we have seen worldwide in your and my lifetime.

The next change does NOT have to come by a massive depression or crash. It could easily come by the people waking up from their slumber and putting people in political office that actually will do them some good.

How likely is that? Time will tell.

My personal opinion is that we will see WW III precipitated before a worldwide economic collapse. But the war will stop trade.

It will be the opposite of WW II.

But I still think the US will come out on top. Of course, that won't be much of a consolation when the earths population is reduced by 2 or 3 billion.

And BTW, Warpy, after seeing where you post after all these years and reading what I do read of you (not that I stalk you, far from it. Rather that you post where I do because we apparently have strikingly similar interests), I can tell that if we ever met, we would either hit it off famously or hate each other!

So....what's it gonna be? You flying to Florida so I can cook for you or do I have to get a load to New Mexico?

[villager]

2. Additionally, the "country" won't get better until the Empire breaks up into 5 or 6 separate ones...

...and then some of those, finally, can be the country(ies) we always wanted this one to be.

On the other hand, some of the other ones will be quite scary places indeed.

[Taverner]

6. Republic of Texas and the Confederate States of America

Looking backwards

I think California should trade Bakersfield, Fresno and Modesto for Austin

[villager]

28. Well, we'll at least have to have political asylum offers at the ready, for Austinites...

...who can make it out...

[gopiscrap]

38. yup

[pffshht]

55. If Texas will take Orange County too, it's a deal /eom

[Taverner]

56. Now now the "OC" is a blue county now

We've taken the jewel of the conservative crown and we chased them all the way to Colorado Springs

[nikto]

69. "California should trade Bakersfield, Fresno and Modesto for Austin"----I like that!

"Good Trade."

[randome]

4. Now THAT'S activism! Hoping for the worst in a storm!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Taverner]

8. Sometimes you gotta start from scratch

But at this rate, there will be NO change

Just a bunch of assholes pissing on my leg and telling me its raining

[geek tragedy]

13. Hoping for poor people to have their life expectancies shortened by 20 years is real progressive! nt

[Taverner]

19. No, I don't hope for it. But I don't think we can do a thing to stop it.

[oldhippie]

35. No?

"So the best any leftist like me can hope for is for the US Government to finally run out of money, declare bankruptcy and then rebuild from the ashes."

Didn't you say that in your OP?

[Taverner]

39. Well exactly, this is the BEST case scenario

As in the others are worse

The system will implode. I would hope it doesn't, but there's not much we can do about it.

When the system implodes, best case scenario would be we build a better mousetrap

Worst case scenario, we devolve into a nation of warlords like Somalia

[Mika]

47. The difference between a fast implosion/fast recovery, or a long slow agonizing spiral. eom

[Taverner]

48. 1920's Germany shows what a long slow spiral is like

They were practically third world around the end

Then Hitler showed up and things got, well EXPONENTIALLY worse

[gopiscrap]

61. Welcome to DU

[The Magistrate]

68. You Drew One, Sir, And An Epic Jury Fail

FreemanSovereign (3 posts)
60. Worse?

How can you say things got worse, let alone EXPONENTIALLY worse? Germany recovered fully in half a decade, was out of the depression while people in the states were standing in bread lines, and rose to super power status. And they did it all by throwing out the international bankers and their fiat currency system. That's what happened when Hitler showed up. You can hate him all you want, but you can't rewrite history.




REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS:

serious loon supporting hitler

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Wed Sep 25, 2013, 07:59 PM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: To the poster: "exponentially worse" might mean gassing of Jews, political dissidents, gays, Romani, etc. Astounding as it may be, some of us think in terms other than $$$$$$. Human "costs" count, too. "Banking and industry," not so much. No one is "rewrit<ing> history." Many of us are putting a human face on it. You're gonna hate this place.


Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The alert is "serious loon supporting hitler". In reading the alerted post I do not see where "support for hitler" is being expressed, rather simply just an observation about the financial condition of Germany after the hitler regime. Post is fine.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: Not a graceful way to make an entrance. I'm on the line here, as this could be a valid point to make... but as whoever this is decided that, with their #1 post to jump in to throw some punches for Hitler doesn't bode well - voting to hide on that rationale.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: Troll

Thank you.

[The Magistrate]

73. Good Luck With That, Sir

I doubt the account will be active past midnight.

[Cerridwen]

75. TOS? Maybe not.

Terms of humanity? Most definitely. I was juror #1.

The 3 who voted to leave it...DU rules forbid I should state honestly my "opinion."

[The Magistrate]

78. One Of Them, Ma'am, Has Serious Reading Comprehension Issues

The post did not describe Germany's condition 'after the hitler regime'; it referred to Germany at the height of Hitler's rule, at the start of 1939 ( 'after half a decade' ).

Elementary historical literacy should leave anyone realizing that Germany's 'economic recovery' under Nazi rule owed mostly to expenditures on armaments, and soaking up labor in semi-conscript condition for public works closely related to military designs, spiced with outright looting, both in the annexations of Austria and the Suedeten, and of course confiscation of Jewish property.

Elementary political awareness should leave anyone here knowing that 'SovereignFreeman' is a moniker directly related to the 'Sovereign Citizen' tendency, the current incarnation of the older 'Freeman' bodies. This is a peculiarly lunatic and violent far-right fringe bunch, who imagine themselves independent as individuals from all current local, state and national law, which they view as no longer legitimate under an extremely strange and tortured view of Constititional and U.S. history.

[Cerridwen]

81. It doesn't take that much nuance to get the

nazis were wrong and we should know better.

I appreciate that you have that much history at your fingertips. But why should it be important on a "left leaning" discussion board?

This is a liberal/democratic/Democratic/change is good internet discussion board.

The nazis appropriated socialism and workers' right in order to catapult their agenda and to get the US (and European) industrial interests on board. It worked back then; why should it work now?

I'm damned tired of Democrats/democrats allowing the most astounding filth to infiltrate "the party" in the name of "tolerance." Damned...fucking...tired.

I refuse to allow intolerance in the name of tolerance by MY, yes, MY party. You want manners and subjugation for a "kindlier, gentler" racism, sexism, hate-filled tollerism? (not you as in you but you as in generic you.)

I don't.

Fuck 'em.

"Well behaved women rarely make history." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Thatcher_Ulrich

[The Magistrate]

83. It May Just Be My Age, Ma'am

But when I came up, to identify yourself as a radical was to make a claim to being knowledgeable, to knowing how things worked and what had come before; if you did not 'know stuff' you could not really be a radical. So I start with an assumption ( shaken a bit by now, I will grant you ) that people engaged in politics from a left position will be widely and deeply informed.

I share your views on tolerance, in many ways: the intolerant deserve none.

"I want you to know, boys and girls, that there are people in this world who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that!"

[Cerridwen]

84. "to identify yourself as a radical was to make a claim to being knowledgeable"

I know you're not new here.

We've gone into the 21st century version of "hippy (that is, radical) punching" version of the Bourbon Dems.

You see it. I know you do.

We've stepped into the pragmatists' version of "go along to get along" and "don't rock the boat," "you can't fight city hall," "Democrats/democrats."

"Civility" and/or "manners" is frequently stated as a reason to play along.

I'm not playing any more.

[pintobean]

5. wowsy wowsy woo woo

[NuclearDem]

7. Pretty much, yeah.

The people in the plutocracy who actually run this place won't tolerate any sort of meaningful dissent, and only throws us a bone when people start getting riled up.

[Taverner]

11. I actually don't think there is any cabal

Or any SINGLE cabal, I guess

Just a lot of people with lots of money buying lots of pols and presidents

And in a way, that's worse

If there was some group of people behind it all, we would just have to stop them

But it's not - it's "selling America by the pound"

[A HERETIC I AM]

23. In this regard, you're probably right.

George Carlin had it right back on this episode of "Politically Incorrect":

The relevant point he makes in the video below starts at the 5:00 mark.

[Autumn]

25. I think that's it. And until something changes it's going to stay that way.

I have no clue what we can do to change it.

[Taverner]

41. Neither do I

And a violent revolution will only make things worse. Violence is never noble, and never makes things better.

[brooklynite]

9. OR...we can live in the real world...

...and work slowly to make the incremental change we need.

Sorry it won't be done by Christmas.

[Taverner]

14. There isn't even incremental change

And when it is, it's always some Republican Ponzi Scheme

[jeff47]

80. Yeah, remember how gays still can't marry anywhere?

Oh wait.

Well, they're still immediately kicked out of the military.

Oh wait.

Well, minimum wage is still $7.25 everywhere.

Oh wait.

Well, taxes are never raised on the wealthy.

Oh wait.

Fact is there is incremental change. And after 3 decades of drifting right, the country is drifting back left.

[Phlem]

58. the real world.

OK then.

[geek tragedy]

10. Your suggestion has been considered and rejected as utterly insane and depraved.

So the best any leftist like me can hope for is for the US Government to finally run out of money, declare bankruptcy and then rebuild from the ashes.

Sorry, we're not going to let society collapse with horrific human suffering because you find our political system icky.

[Taverner]

12. I don't want it. BELIEVE me I don't want it.

I don't want my kids in that world

I don't want to be an old street beggar missing limbs

But that's where we're headed

And the rich? Oh they'll be OK

They always are

[geek tragedy]

15. We're not headed there. This is not Greece. The US government is not broke, it is not close to

bankrupt or unable to pay its bills.

You can root for catastrophe all you want, but that just excludes you from the conversation.

[Taverner]

16. It's not broke NOW

You just wait until the next GOP administration

Whatever isn't nailed down will suddenly 'disappear' like that large crate of Franklins did in Iraq

[geek tragedy]

17. Here's a brilliant idea:

make sure the GOP doesn't get the chance.

Here's a little secret: the GOP is dying a gradual death through demographics. They are on the decline. Their base is old, white people. They have no plan to be relevant 15 years from now.

[Taverner]

18. It takes millions of stupid to hold us all back

Unfortunately, the GOP has the stupid

I would hope that is the case, but selfishness never goes away

And with our party growing more and more conservatives, now that all the Reaganbots are coming back.

[geek tragedy]

20. the country is getting more liberal.

Latinos believe in activist government. They want national healthcare. They're the fastest growing segment of the population.

And the Republicans piss on them every chance they get.

[AverageJoe90]

46. So true. And the continued dominance of the Teabaggers & their ilk isn't helping them.....

They really are in trouble. Lots of it.

[JoePhilly]

88. +1

It's not at all ironic that many of those who think a total collapse is required are also those who are always disgruntled.

Good news has to be rejected because the collapse must happen.

And again we see that the steps for exactly how that collapse becomes their utopia (rather than the tea party version) goes unmentioned.

[tk2kewl]

21. I regularly feel the same way as you...

But constantly hope our better angels will prevail.

Hang tough!

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

32. Same here. The "incremental change" thing is not working out that well for millions of Americans.

But not only do I not hope for a total meltdown, I don't know that that would guarantee success for progressive ideals. The rich bastards and their racist, sexist, brainwashed supporters may emerge victorious.

[NightWatcher]

24. If Obama gives us good health insurance, cuts the deficit, and grows the economy...

the repukes will lose the House and a large enough minority in the Senate to stall legislation. With overwhelming majorities, hopefully we will see things start to happen for us.

[truedelphi]

30. The ONLY part of the economy Obama grows is the investment side, Big Banker's side.

Right now 49 cents out of every dollar of profit generated inside this nation goes right off the bat to the rich. To the One Percent.

If you have investment monies come in, it does trickle down. But for the rest of us, Nothing!

I see no indications that anything Obama does will help. I hope to Goddess I am wrong about the ACA, but if it does get most of the 7.1 million uninsured here in California insured, how the heck will there be enough clinics, doctors, nurses etc to even see so many people? Plus Jerry Brown cut 1 billion dollars out of state budget that had been used as health care revenue. Hopefully the Fed government will be making up those monies - otherwise clinics will go bust and there will be less help for rural poor than there is now.

We needed someone who understood how to handle the econmic collapse. Kucinich and Issa both advocated the same game plan - simply use the laws from the Savings and Loan debacle and infuse money into state chrtered banks in every region of the nation with tight regulations that those monies HAD TO BE lent out to Main Street.

But Obama ignored them and went with the Fat Cat's dream ticket of Geithner and Bernanke.

[MannyGoldstein]

27. I basically agree, BUT

It can be a controlled implosion, as it was in the US in 1933. This isn't the first time our country has been in this place.

Or it can be Germany during that period.

I suspect it'll be one or the other.

Our job, as Liberals, is to push for the way of FDR. it worked once, it will work again if tried.

[cali]

29. how many times are you going to post this OP? Just curious

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022643685
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002898467

I give up - the US is dead. The part worth saving at least

And the rest will rot to the core as the fish rots from the head down

During the Bush admin they stripped away our Constitutional rights

Since then the American People spoke and elected BHO

BHO repaid them by letting the Republicans go on their democricide with cutting unions, schools, police, etc

And BHO stood by.

He didn't put on his comfy shoes and march in WI

He didn't even say a thing

Lately its been as if Reagan were still president

Fuck it

It ain't worth it

Let the fish rot - there's nothing anyone can do

The Democratic Party has sold out

The GOP is already a subsidiary of Haliburton Corp

And any third party is doomed

So fuck it. I am waiting for the day that the US finally runs out of money, and the Fed is unable to preserve the union

At that time I highly reccomend to any and all of you to move somewhere friendly

Stay out of the boonies, and stay away from the Conservatives

At that point they'll be playing soldier with lots of guns and bombs - let them kill each other
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x747564

[Cali_Democrat]

34. LOL

[babylonsister]

31. Can you get any more moribund?

Lighten up, Francis!

[Taverner]

57. Sorry - Happy Taverner is dead. Call me "Moribuddy"

[Starry Messenger]

36. I don't think that's true.

You live in CA like me, there is a 2/3 Democratic majority in both the State House and Senate, we have some very progressive reps.

It is taking effort in the unions and grassroots, but think where we were 5 years ago.

If you let the whole structure go limp you get Somalia, not socialist paradise.

[HereSince1628]

37. Things will not get better until the only option is cooperation

Not just between political parties but between strangers.

[Taverner]

51. Exactly. So mote it be.

[Bonhomme Richard]

40. It will require Government being afraid of the people which will require...

The people getting so mad that the capitalist system itself is in jeopardy which will require things to get probably as bad as the depression, i.E. no jobs, money or future...and we are well on our way on a train that ain't stopping.
The only reason things changed in the 30's was due to the rise in popularity of communism and socialism. Joseph Kennedy thanked Roosevelt for saving capitalism.

[Taverner]

42. Perhaps a long series of Wildcat Stikes might do it...

But I think America forgot how to strike

[Cleita]

43. Thom Hartmann agrees with you.

He's predicting a big crash before 2016 which is supposed to wake everyone up to the abuses in our economic and political system. As if you can't see it now by just opening your eyes, but I guess the majority are going to have to be slapped across the head to get it.

[Taverner]

44. Small crash, followed by a Government band-aid, followed by an even bigger crash

Seems like all crashes are a one-two punch

Happened at the turn of the century, great depression and in Europe.

[99Forever]

49. Sadly, I think you are correct.

"The Empire" has stretched itself to the breaking point and we citizens are hurting in ways that will lead to radical change, one way or another. I sincerely hope it's peaceful, but have serious doubts it will be. There are evil people that have ceased control of the mechanisms of our government and they MUST be brought down and vanquished. If not, this nation will not survive.

[Taverner]

50. Yep. So far the empire makes up the lionshare of our budget

And no one in DC is showing any signs of letting the empire go

[seveneyes]

52. The mayhem and misery would drag a lot of good people down with it

A race to the bottom is not an answer. We will keep bailing out the ship until it floats with more people rather than sink it and drown everyone.

[Taverner]

53. Good people will be hurt no matter what happens

And if we can avoid it - damn I hope we can, but my hope ran out 4 years ago - that would be best

But I just don't see that happening

But hey, the last thing I expected in 1988 was that the Berlin Wall would come down in the next few years

[ozone_man]

54. True that.

It has been a long time coming, and the failure in 2008 could have initiated real change, but the banks were rescued at tax payer's expense, for they were too big to fail.

I wish Elizabeth Warren luck in re-instating Glass-Steagall, which I fully support. That might move us a step back from the brink. But, I see the 1% issue and the derivative nature of our banking system as unstable and bound to fail, as soon as the money spigot is shut off.

Like the Great Depression, when it finally comes, there is the opportunity for real change. I certainly don't wish for it, but I think the reality is that this is what it will take.

[BillyRibs]

62. In 2008 when the bankers cried we are just hours from a curency colapse.

What they were really saying was; We are hours away from a system that doesn't favor the Kleptocracy, the greedy, and the 1%. IOW a system that will be forced to work for everybody! I'm with ya man! and I'm 56!

[ProSense]

64. What we needed was not a collapse almost as bad as the Great Depression, we needed

something much worse?

I never understood this kind of thinking.

Yeah, the assholes across the ecomomic spectrum who are fighting against a recovery would have disappeared and after decades of strife and suffering we'd arrive at utopia.

[libdem4life]

65. I've been politically aware since "I Like Ike" raised us from the dregs of national and financial

abyss of a Depression and two World Wars. In my opinion, the Powers That Be ... earthly and cosmic ... will never allow that to happen...it would be the easy way out. Like women went to work outside the home so their men could fight and die in Europe and Asia, it now takes two wage earners here to nominally support a family and somehow we'll make do.

My imperfect understanding is that we live in a planetary and evolutionary spiral that is ever (sometimes ever so slightly) upwards, but has a painful dark and blind side which drives the frantic species upward again. The Christians call it AD as 2000 years is but a blip on the screen. The Hindus call this the Kali Yuga...the Ancient Westerners call it The Aquarian Age. The Reincarnationists say we've been here done it before and have to do it over and over again. The Buddhists say we don't get to escape suffering...just have to adjust. Who knows.

Can be depressing, agreed.

[JEFF9K]

66. Implode isn't the only option. There's also EXplode. Both could work.

[MineralMan]

70. Nihilistic fatalism is a lousy philosophy.

If what you hope for occurs, people will die in large numbers, and those with that philosophy will be among the first.

Pity...

[Taverner]

85. It's all big picture

Rome fell. Rome is a nice place to go to today.

Death of an Empire does not mean death of a people.

There are still Romans everywhere.

[DeSwiss]

71. K&R

[Laelth]

76. This may be of interest to you.

I addressed your question in an essay in 2011. Here: http://laelth.blogspot.com/2011/01/turning-american-ship-of-state.html

-Laelth

[truebluegreen]

77. A government that can print money can't go bankrupt.

So there's that, but on the gist of your post I agree.

[Omnith]

79. I believe you are correct.

Significant change is nearly impossible to implement and it was designed that way. I don't think that is a bad thing. If it was easy to make changes there would probably be change in a direction we don't like, given the influence of corporations these days.

[Zorra]

82. The only solution is world revolution. nt

[MFrohike]

86. Keep waiting

The US controls its own currency, has it debts denominated in that currency, and also happens to be the world's reserve currency with absolutely no sign of a viable challenger. As for the constitution, not to sound cynical, but over two centuries of experience has shown that it is a set of guidelines, not a rigid structure. A literal reading of the constitution would forbid much of what we take for granted* but, fortunately, Americans have always been a practical people in general, with little love for those who hump the details at the expense of what actually works.

The role of reform doesn't belong to a president or a legislature. It belongs to the people. The people aren't stupid, they're uninspired and often ill-informed. They are also quite magnificent when given the chance. Look at the rapid, yes rapid, evolution on gay rights in this country. We've spent 40 years growing ever more economically insecure and a majority, a slight majority, of Americans do not view gay people as some hideous other to be burned at the stake to propitiate the gods of the "free market." Do you realize how huge that is? It took over 10 years of record prosperity for America to become ready to deal with civil rights. Those were largely economically secure people who felt that they could afford to be both moral and magnanimous. That is not the case today, yet our people have shown that they can expand the definition of normal/American/whatever even when times are bad. That is a definite case for hope.

*A literal reading if one were to assume that the constitution contains the extent of the federal power, as opposed to a delineation of powers with only a few specified limits.

[JoePhilly]

87. The tea party hopes for the same collapse ... except ...

... they anticipate a totally different Utopia afterwards.

Of course like you, they don't really know how it happens, they just assume it will.