You know why I like debating other folks here on DU?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

Because you have your shit together! I mean, for the most part I have to really think through my positions and do research and understand complexities of an argument when engaging in any kind of policy or other debate here on DU.

Which is great training for when I go into the wider world with conservative lunk heads in person, on FB, or other non-political message boards where politics comes up.

It is SO EASY to spank them silly with facts by comparison because they have done no research and have no critical thinking skills. Of course, if either of those were the case, they would probably run as far from the GOP as they could as fast as they could.

EDITED: To add a big Thank You.

[Uncle Joe]

1. Kicked and recommended for honing our skills.

Thanks for the thread, Pretzel_Warrior.

[JaneyVee]

2. Good point. Can't debate conservatives because conservatives don't

Live in the real world and despise facts and evidence.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

4. but I just thoroughly shut a guy up about federal government programs

and how the churches and families used to do it--now it's the goddamm gubmit. I referenced poverty levels of elderly in 1930's vs. today and the policy studies that show this is 99.8% related to Social Security program. A large federal government program that works exceedingly well. I provided a link to AARP data on it.

Thus far...crickets.

[JaneyVee]

6. Yeah, I'm guilty of doing it anyway myself. They're just so easy but get angry so fast.

[LukeFL]

23. Have they called you names yet?

You know when facts are not on their side they scream and call you names. They have called me everything in the book.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

35. not yet. the guy I responded to was only one of a few on the Facebook thread

he has gone radio silent since my reply to him

[mnhtnbb]

38. There are some people who are never going to be convinced by the facts.

I have a SIL who is one of them. Some years ago, after I called her out
on checking her facts, she told me she wasn't interested in a history
lesson or facts, she just agreed with the opinion being presented
(based on false 'data', of course).

So, it's worth testing the waters with someone to see if they are interested
in new information, facts, etc., but once you get the kind of response
I did from my SIL, it's not worth beating your head against the wall
any longer with people who are ignorant and proud of it.

[Cooley Hurd]

3. Absolutely agree...

DU has been my #1 source of news for over a decade now. Perhaps all that is posted here is not factual, but if you sift thru the aggregate of info here, you tend to have a much clearer picture of things than if you single-sourced it elsewhere.

DU has made me the smartest guy in the room when it comes to debate outside of DU. Inside of DU, I am a grasshopper (i.e. Kung Fu-speak for "one who is always learning&quot .

[sheshe2]

5. K&R!

Thanks for the thread P_W.

[rhett o rick]

7. k&r thanks for posting. nm

[Poll_Blind]

8. This is very true. +1 nt

PB

[liberal N proud]

9. It makes all better citizens

[Pretzel_Warrior]

11. cheers for that. we are usually the best informed and most quickly informed

about any issues that occur. it's mindblowing what a hive mind we have here with so many people sharing links to important news and research.

There is much theoretical research on collective intelligence utilizing the internet and computers to connect groups who are then more intelligent than they would have been.

http://cci.mit.edu/

It would be interesting to see how this could become even more structured at DU than it already is.

[Uncle Joe]

25. That looks like some promising research by MIT on your link.

While people have talked about collective intelligence for decades, new communication technologies—especially the Internet—now allow huge numbers of people all over the planet to work together in new ways. The recent successes of systems like Google and Wikipedia suggest that the time is now ripe for many more such systems, and the goal of the MIT Center for Collective Intelligence is to understand how to take advantage of these possibilities.

Our basic research question is: How can people and computers be connected so that—collectively—they act more intelligently than any individuals, groups, or computers have ever done before?'

The Center for Collective Intelligence brings together faculty from across MIT to conduct research on how new communications technologies are changing the way people work together.

[Dragonfli]

10. Good post, I feel the same way, funny thing is even those I disagree with the strongest here

are like ideological brothers as compared to the idiot brigade that is so loud a presence within those other venues.

It is good to recognize such things from time to time.

[cui bono]

12. True.

I don't know if you've turned over a new leaf or if you're just scared of the new hidden post rules, but I must admit that ever since I saw your self-deprecating post in that rules thread I've grown a wee bit fond of you.

Just a wee bit.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

13. hahah. maybe Skinner is good at behavior modification.

which "Rules" thread? The one where Skinner announces new rules? heheh.

I was always this way to a point....and I did get a post hidden because I was wishing ill of conservative house members. oh well.

[cui bono]

15. Yeah, that thread.

When you said "behavior modification" I pictured you wearing a shock collar like those for dogs.

[hrmjustin]

14. K&R!

[doc03]

16. You can debate someone here that will at least listen to

the other side. It is pointless to debate with a right winger, they believe what the
Republican noise machine tells them and can't be convinced otherwise.

[Fumesucker]

17. There are other places that are pretty good but in over a decade I've not found better than DU

There used to be a saying in the Science Fiction community, AKICF, All Knowledge Is Contained In Fandom, that's nearly true for DU, there are experts here on a remarkable range of subjects who are willing to share their expertise.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

18. that's for sure! Seems to lend credence to the notion we're a diverse group

[Curmudgeoness]

19. Absolutely. I am constantly having to defend Democrats

or debunk Republican talking points....and I would never have the information that I need to do it without everything that I read here.

This place rocks.

[tclambert]

20. You're silly. Like all that research and thought applies to arguing with people in the real world.

Regular people (and more so with Republican types) don't debate with facts and subtle complexities. They argue with sound bites, false facts, irrelevancies, and changing the subject if they feel their worldview threatened. Mention Bush's idiocies and they'll bring up Reagan, claiming he cut taxes and created a booming economy while simultaneously and single-handedly dismantling the Soviet Union.

9/11 was all Clinton's fault, by the way, 'cause George W. Bush had barely begun his Presidency when it happened. One guy actually said that to me. I pointed out he took the oath of office on Jan. 20th, 2001, 7 3/4 months before 9/11. He disagreed, claiming Bush took office late, delayed by Al Gore's challenging the election results! And he would not consider looking it up anywhere to check this "fact." He insisted he remembered it himself and didn't need any other reference than his own memory. How do you even hold a discussion with people like that?

[valerief]

24. And worst of all--they're proud of their ignorance. "I don't know and I don't want to know."

Amazing.

[mnhtnbb]

39. Exactly. See my post #38.

[ffr]

21. Golf analogy. If you want to play better,

pick a partner who is better than you. That is what we have here on DU. A lot of deep thinking deductive thought process people. You're bound to get smarter by playing up to their level.

And it'll keep your debate skills sharp.

[MrScorpio]

22. Me, I'm usually making up shit as I go along

But somehow, that has worked for me

[Emit]

29. ...

[TxDemChem]

26. You are so right.

We have no problem fact checking each other and requesting valid sources. I had to get on a coworker about the ACA today. She still doesn't know what hit her. Apparently, she's heard nothing but bad things about the rates people have been getting.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

36. Yes! Great story

Hoperully our being informed due to DU and our willingness to engage will help others get more factual understanding what is happening around them.

[TxDemChem]

37. +1000

[Warpy]

27. You can always tell when a dittohead realizes he's lost, utterly and completely

because he starts to splutter and babble down his ditto list for red herrings and then namecall.

That's when you know they can't cite a source because they know "I heard it on the radio" sounds silly, even to them.

[bhikkhu]

28. That's what I like too

Usually I try to have all my ducks in a row and a handful of references in my back pocket (a good habit I learned in college), but then I still am surprised sometimes, and the conversations are generally informative. Sometimes I find that I'm wrong, or haven't really understood someone's perspective, which are mind-building things to realize. Along with my 8k posts or so, there are probably another 8k times I hit "reply" and began to write, then realized I needed more information to make an effective statement (knowing I'd be called on it), then rushed off in search of back-up, only to find that I was actually wrong. More posts abandoned than posted.

DU can drive me to distraction sometimes, but I believe that it does help to make us all more effective.

On occasion I read other forums elsewhere, and the most striking difference is that lack of real discussion, the lack of critical thinking, and (most discouraging and all too often) the absence of facts.

[fadedrose]

30. Humility will get you everywhere....

K & R

[Spitfire of ATJ]

31. Being a true Liberal is the kind of mindset that it doesn't really require a lot of research.

[Buddaman]

32. DU is my FIRST read in the morning for political news....

And yep, there's a lot of political savvy here.

[Bluzmann57]

33. Thank you right back at you

I know I'm not the most educated man the world has ever seen, but I have learned a LOT here since 2002 or so.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

34. All of us have to keep learning!