There is some bullshit on 60 minutes right now...

[LaydeeBug]

Lawyers talking about how they represent people who got awarded disability but didn't 'deserve' it.

I forgot when a lawyer got to make a medical diagnosis for their client.

This was some *really* shoddy reporting.

And no, I'm not on disability.

edit: typo

[RavensChick]

1. Good, I'm glad I missed it.

[Logical]

2. I am sure there are many people who do not deserve it. But that does not.....

mean most do not deserve it.

Some people want something for nothing. Shoplifting, stealing videos off internet, defrauding people, etc.

That is bound to carry over to government programs also.

[DJ13]

3. Many lawyers dont deserve the % they charge either

[hootinholler]

4. GMTA

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023797212



Then to top it off, they have more on their website.

[closeupready]

5. Agreed. Tonight's program seems like Republican Night.

Won't be watching none-more-obsequious Lara Logan either.

[B Calm]

50. The people I know who I think are frauding the system are republicans!

[kestrel91316]

6. Lawyers are whores. And they are not supposed to be concerned about whether or not their clients

are guilty or not guilty, deserving or not deserving. They are paid to represent their client's interests. Period.

If they really think a prospective client is a crook, they are under no obligation to take them on.

I betcha these guys took their fees from these "undeserving" clients and spent the money just the same as always.

[mimi85]

36. Let's hope Michelle Obama doesn't see that

Some lawyers are whores. Some police officers are. Some nurses are. I just don't believe in all, always, never, etc.

[kestrel91316]

41. I should have qualified that. But I didn't see a way to do it succinctly and without diverting

focus from my actual point, which I'm sure everybody got.

[mimi85]

52. I got it, not to worry

Just having a rough day. Apologies.

[Buddaman]

7. Those lawyers should've refered the disability case then...

They put money in place of ethics.....Fuck 'em.

[jaysunb]

8. There's some validity to this claim....

"crazy checks" as they are sometimes called are the source of major fraud in the system. I've had a couple clients who were/are simply drunks and lay abouts that collect $994.00 a month.
They slip through the cracks, while many worthy people are denied or delayed.

[mountain grammy]

55. I've also known folks who collect disability for what could be considered "life style choices"

but sometimes these so called "life style choices" like alcoholism, drug abuse, and even morbid obesity, are caused by deeper, untreated problems.
Maybe that "drunk, lay about" is a vet suffering with PTSD, or a teenager whose schizophrenia was never diagnosed or treated. The American health care system is not accessible for so many people and it's the untreated illnesses that become disabilities.

[hollowdweller]

69. In the 90's

They did away with the 12.09 substance abuse listing now if substance abuse is material to a finding of disability, meaning they would not be disabled if they laid off whatever they can no longer be allowed.

They also did away about the same thing with the 10:10 obesity listings, although even when they had that it wasn't just weight alone, you had to have a secondary condition.

So at one time there was a listing for those conditions but no more. Now of course severe arthritis due to obesity or cirrhosis from drinking if bad enough could get you allowed. But that would be due to the severity of those problems and not due to the substance abuse or obesity

[mountain grammy]

74. To be honest, I don't think I knew anyone who started on disability in the 90's.

Since 2000, I've known several. A dozen Vietnam vets whose alcoholism got the best of them fighting the demons of PTSD.

[hollowdweller]

67. It's a complex issue

At the first 2 levels which are adjudicated at DDS, the allowance rates are fairly low.

At the third level of appeal, before an ALJ at the OHA way more are allowed.

Most of what I would consider non deserving people are allowed by the ALJ.

Most DDS's have an internal QA component that essentially plays the devils advocate on iffy cases. Then a certain
percentage of those cases are sent to DQB the federal QA unit. So at the first two levels the case gets intense scrutiny.

At the hearing level the law judge does not have that level of scrutiny. The appeals council reviews some of those decisions but mostly denials so if a law judge allows a case his work will be reviewed less than if he denys . So ALJ's can pretty much allow cases the DDS never could. QA would kick them back if DDS did. ALJ has staff to get the info to support his decision, where the examiner at DDS has to pretty much convince the staff to go his way.

However at the DDS level besides being charged with accuracy as determined by your QA error rate, you are also pushed to produce cases at low mean processing time. Allowing an iffy case requires you to QA proof your decision way more than a denial because you have to often try over and over to get the claimants to give you the information you need, especially the vocational information which can be key. Also you have to wait months and often request info from doctors over and over until they give you the key info you know you need to allow that person. Some people will just look at the case on the surface and on the surface it is a denial. But to dig to allow drives up your mean processing time. Slows your production. Drives up your caseload.

So it's good that there are multiple levels of appeal even though some undeserving slip thru.
ay

[jaysunb]

79. +1 agreed n/t

[Enrique]

9. SSI is under attack in the "liberal media"

just in the past year, Nicholas Kristof in the NYT did a story on SSI fraud in Appalachia, and around the same time, "This American Life" on NPR did a similar "expose." Both of those pieces were very flawed. And now 60 minutes, which I haven't seen yet. I wonder how these things come to these people's attention...

[Dawson Leery]

10. Many lawyers do not deserve the obsurd commissions they charge.

[COLGATE4]

77. I agree. It's probably better (and certainly cheaper)

to do it by yourself.

[Drunken Irishman]

11. Fraud happens in just about everything...

It's unavoidable. That doesn't make the program any less legitimate ... but it happens.

I remember watching a documentary on the White family from the West Virginia hills and many of the kids didn't work because, even though they were adults, they openly scammed Social Security. They were all able bodied, but their father worked a loophole and live off that.

Bet they're Republicans to boot.

It happens. Still...what're you going to do? Scrap it because a million or so people abuse the system?

[hatrack]

23. Funny how they never go after the fundie Mormons in UT and AZ

They're members of the church that espouses SS & Medicare/Medicaid fraud openly, since it assists in "Bleeding The Beast".

Rugged individualists, uh-huh . . .

[duffyduff]

43. There is VERY little fraud with SSDI and SSI

That is FACT. These assholes from the media are trying to stoke fake outrage from the public while the REAL thieves in the top 1 percent get away with murder.

[Duppers]

51. my brother's m.i.l. is a known faker

Getting disability and she's stupid enough to brag about it. She and people like her hurt others who really need help.

[jimlup]

12. Yeah I saw it ... they went Republican perspective hook-line and sinker...

Didn't bother to give the other side's perspective at all.

Yeah I believe that there are some correct points BUT the glaring hole in the report was a failure to consider the true economic cost of changing the law. They are naive if they think toughening Disability requirements would help the "average" American but that was clearly the perspective and the biased agenda.

[BluegrassStateBlues]

13. Eric C. Conn is a well known crook in this area.

And has been under federal investigation for quite some time. Allegedly, he was bribing doctors and judges to help his clients get approved for SSI.

There's nothing about this story that's "bullshit."

[duffyduff]

45. Well it IS bullshit when it is being presented as something typical. n/t

[loyalsister]

47. Anecdotal evidence does not represent the majority

It's easy to neglect facts when a person is just looking to reinforce biases.
But they exist...

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/poverty/report/2013/05/30/64681/the-facts-on-social-security-disability-insurance-and-supplemental-security-income-for-workers-with-disabilities/

[treestar]

14. That seems a dangerous thing to say for a lawyer

Are they admitting to fraud? Or that the SSA and it courts don't do a good job of vetting?

They get paid by a %, too, so they have no motive to bring bad cases unless they think that administrative law judges are easily fooled. And I doubt that's the case.

[duffyduff]

48. The fact is lawyers don't know in advance which ALJ will hear their clients' cases

I was told by the attorney representing my brother's case that some ALJs will approve as many as 85 percent of cases, while others as low as 15 percent. It is a total crapshoot.

You have to have really good medical documentation to get approved for SSI at least, which is a pittance.

[hollowdweller]

70. Yeah but

You can just file over and over till you get the judge you want.

[Tx4obama]

15. Did you watch the WHOLE segment... the part about taxpayers pay over a BILLION dollars to lawyers

and how doctors go to attorneys' offices to look at the person - and the doctors sign forms (that are pre-filled out by the atorneys' office) for over a dozen folks per day?

I'm glad that 60 Minutes did the segment

[Mojorabbit]

17. I had to have a personal interview, reams of tests and doctor's opinions

and I don't know what all to be accepted. I have MS and finally became too ill to work a complete shift.
I have read many many articles in the past year highlighting that people scam the system and I do think there
is a movement to go after disability recipients.

[Tx4obama]

19. The point of the segment is DOJ is going after lawyers and doctors that are scaming the system

... NOT the folks that are really disabled.

[mentalsolstice]

27. So I guess Mojorabbit should be more patient

Disgusting that you're buying a M$M report, and telling people that they need to wait even longer in protracted process so a few lawyers and doctors can be vetted.

[Tx4obama]

61. I never said (or agree with) any of the things you just said I said. n/t

[Mojorabbit]

82. That was not the impression left and it is not the first time

Here is an article from today denouncing the piece

60 Minutes Report Denounced For Disability Misinformation
National Disability Organizations Criticize Media Coverage That Echoes Misleading NPR Report

National disability organizations have criticized a misleading CBS News 60 Minutes report on Social Security disability which relied on anecdotal evidence to deceptively portray the vital program as wasteful and unsustainable, despite the fact that award rates fell during the recession and that fraud is less than one percent of the program.

On October 6, 60 Minutes stoked fears that the Social Security Disability Insurance program is "ravaged by waste and fraud," relying on Senator Tom Coburn's (R-OK) partisan investigation and anecdotal evidence to hype growth in the program while misleadingly claiming that it "could become the first government benefits program to run out of money."

In response, organizations that advocate for and support people with disabilities nationwide have criticized the report. Rebecca Vallas, co-chair of the Social Security Task Force at the Consortium for Citizens with Disabilities -- a coalition of approximately 100 national disability organizations -- told Media Matters the coverage was "sensational" and did a "tremendous disservice" to people with disabilities:

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/10/07/60-minutes-report-denounced-for-disability-misi/196317

[Tx4obama]

84. See the article on the DU LBN link below

Here: Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014613685

[Mojorabbit]

85. I saw the article

The article I posted goes in to how a false impression has been given by these programs and that over a hundred groups representing the disabled wrote and asked them to reconsider airing the piece because of that:

"Lisa Ekman, Director of Federal Policy at Health & Disability Advocates, said the organization was "extremely disappointed that 60 Minutes chose to air such a one-sided story based on anecdote and supposition ... Misleading media reports like the one on 60 Minutes distract from focusing on the real issue of helping American workers with and without disabilities achieve economic security."

The myths pushed by 60 Minutes have been repeatedly debunked by experts. The report admitted that the vast majority of people applying for benefits are denied, but ignored the fact that the majority of appeals are also denied, and that award rates have actually fallen during the economic recession. In April, the Wall Street Journal called the claim that federal disability benefits were to blame for people leaving the labor force "exaggerated," explaining that disability was in fact the least common reason individuals left the workforce.

As the Center for Economic and Policy Research's Dean Baker noted, the report also "completely ignored all the comments from experts in the field ... pointing out that fraud is in fact not rampant in the disability program." Indeed, the Government Accountability Office has repeatedly found that fraud accounts for approximately one percent of all disability payments."

[hollowdweller]

71. The whole lawyer thing is a racket

Most of them don't do shit till the ALJ level.

They have these huge ad campaigns and then people who file at the initial level they would have been an allowance anyway and the lawyers sign them up and when they get allowed they take a big chunk.
.
Another trick is SSA caps the attorney fees so the attorney will gather up a bunch of old records, they may already
be in the claimants file and then charges the claimant for them so they can draw more from them over the cap.

SOME attorneys are excellent and will even go to the claimants doctors and get specific info but they are mostly local ones. Not the big firms on TV.

[Historic NY]

16. Social Security judges think they're Doctors too...

my Comp Lawyer finally sent me to his 75v yr old mother a lawyer to appeal his decisions. The Federal Court overturned all of them even the ones she didn't. She didn't take the customary fee either.

[blkmusclmachine]

18. 60 Minutes sucks

[doc03]

20. I am glad 60 minutes did the story. Disability pensions are

the early retirement plan for a lot of people. There are a lot fraudulent
disability pensions handed out to able bodied people. I know people that get disability for being alcoholics, drug addicts or just being so fat they can't work.

[mentalsolstice]

22. Disgusting to see this on DU

I receive SSDI, but just go ahead...

[doc03]

24. Did I say everyone is a fraud? n/t

[mentalsolstice]

28. Erm, maybe some are fat, addicted and aclcoholic

Because they are disabled, can't exercise and are self-medicating because our health care system is broken.

[GreenPartyVoter]

32. Don't get all logical here, now.

[mentalsolstice]

37. +1!

[Enthusiast]

75. Generally speaking,

DUers do not like to see other DUers bolstering Republican positions. While there is fraud in SS, there is fraud in virtually everything. And much of the fraud is completely off limits, like war profiteering and military procurement.

[ksoze]

25. Disgusting there is fraud or disgusting it is being discussed?

Is there some off limits mentioning there may be fraud? I do not understand the ire at this 60 minutes story. The theme was there is fraud and those who deserve it are getting screwed by the scam artists. Am I missing something?

[Hissyspit]

29. Disgusting that there are bigoted talking points here:

"I know people that get disability for being alcoholics, drug addicts or just being so fat they can't work."

[ksoze]

30. Where were these talking points?

I did not hear them in the segment.

[mentalsolstice]

38. Not in the 60 Minutes seg, but right here upthread. EOM

[mentalsolstice]

31. Did you see the Congressman at the first part of the segment?

He wants to shut down SSDI entirely. So it's going to hurt needy applicants, just because of a few fraudulent claims. 60 Minutes gave a very one-sided report. They didn't mention how a majority of claims are denied. And the two women complaining about how Walmart is crowded one day month when checks come in, well that was insulting.

[ksoze]

33. I saw the segment. I saw the Oklahoma Senantor.

I did not hear anything about shutting down SSDI. I heard there is fraud (not shocked) and that there is attention to the fact there is and that fraud will effect everyone. The two women were local SSA employees who were recounting their experiences working in that geography. The Walmart comment was a bit over the top, but may be representative of the amount of recipients in that area, irregardless of the legitimacy of their claim.

[mentalsolstice]

35. Okay...?

So you as a supposed Democrat, does not have a very good filter to see a right-wing M$M smear when it's put out there.

1) Most of the report focused on a small geographic area.
2) No recipients were interviewed for a counterpoint, but I guess we can assume disabled people are too stupid to speak up for themselves, or we don't make pretty TV.
3) The Walmart analogy was totally over the top.

On edit: the senator or representative claimed you can't present a SSDI recipient who cannot work some sort of job, so you can extrapolate from his statement, there should be no recipients.

[hollowdweller]

72. I'll tell you what they need to do

If you have private disability insurance thru your job or yourself most require you to file for disabilitiy and then your payment is reduced to account for the disability. Some even provide lawyers.

Why should the gov't subsidize private insurance? You should get BOTH.

[anneboleyn]

42. Wow. "Fat people get disability to retire early" I can't believe I read this on DU.

I know, I am naive. I am just very surprised that a republican meme like this ("fat people and drug addicts, and fat drug addicts, are living like royalty off the $1,000 a month income they are robbing from social security disability and the good 'Murican taxpayers&quot is being espoused by a member of DU.

Your claim that "a lot" of people qualify for (not to mention could even survive on) SSD is not supported by the evidence.

[RosieS57]

57. Drug abusers and alcoholics...

....were kicked off in 1997 and have not been back since.

I am on SSDI, but I have Lupus AND rheumatoid arthritis. My career IS doctor appointments and prescriptions and shots.

Didja know those of us on disability are front line for new drugs to be tried on us? Yup. Guinea pigs for everyone else, that's us!

Regards from Rosie

[Egalitarian Thug]

76. You must be spending your time somewhere else.

You can't think of a reich-wing prevarication or exaggeration that isn't repeated and defended here almost daily.

[duffyduff]

49. Prove it. You can't, that's why.

I am horrified this ignorant statement is allowed here.

[NoodleyAppendage]

68. Sad, but true. Those who say otherwise know not of which they speak.

It is an uncomfortable fact that ~25% of medicolegal claimants for disability are either amplifying their complaints or outright malingering. Any dispositive data for disability is routinely thrown out so as to not "muck up" the claim likelihood. Over the past ~15 years I have reviewed hundreds of SSDI claim materials and it never ceases to amaze me what some people are able to get funded (generally after multiple appeals). It has also been my experience that generally the first claim/materials are the accurate ones.

Sorry folks. People fake disability all the time. It happens. Get over it.

[hollowdweller]

73. There is nothing wrong with that

So you are 55 you have a heart attack or something and your meds cost you 600 a month.

You worked at Dollar General Store and have no insurance.

You get disability, you get a medical card and you can still work at Dollar General as long as you keep it under about

800 a month.

[u4ic]

83. wow, you need to expand your understanding of disability

The disabled aren't just in wheelchairs. In fact, many who are may be much more capable of working than those with severe mental health issues ("drug addicts" included).

[ksoze]

21. What was the BS part? I must of missed that part.

Unless I missed something - enlighten me please.

[closeupready]

39. Um, if you missed the "BS part", you missed the whole segment.

Next...

[LaydeeBug]

40. I did. In the OP I *clearly* state the part you missed.

Where I forget when an attorney is qualifies to make a medical diagnosis, as those attorneys did right there on this day of Our Lord.

[NightWatcher]

26. I was awarded (weird term?) disability on my 1st try, no lawyer, just hospital records

I have an aunt who had to apply 4 times and hire a lawyer who took 50% of her back dated money. She spends a quarter of the year in jail on repeated petty shoplifting arrests. She isn't disabled, has no disease, but is a sorry excuse and a giant piece of poor white trash. She gets disability, when she's not in jail.

I have two autoimmune diseases (where my body attacks itself and targets healthy organs), a neuromuscular disease, damaged kidneys and liver, and a handful of other stuff. I'm in my late 30's and worked from age 15 up until I was driven to the ER via ambulance after losing almost 1/4 my weight due to muscle wasting and was unable to stand or lift my legs beyond a shuffle to walk. I've no idea when I'll die from this, but it will end me (unless I get hit by a bus or any other accident).

I bring home less than if I had a minimum wage job and worked 30 something hours a week.

I don't drive a Caddy, I'm not living large on the government. I wish I could work so that I could bring my family something more than chicken scratch. I used to clear 40-50K a year on average, now it's 13K and a shit ton of medical bills (no insurance).


But I really can't complain.

[Cal Carpenter]

34. Fuck

They should be doing a story about what it's really like to live on disability, to *be* disabled, especially if you don't come from a privileged family.

*That* would be important, hard hitting news that effects millions and bring light to a huge, forgotten sector of poverty. Not making a scandal out of the few who may take advantage of it. Especially based on some opportunist lawyers' statements.

60 Minutes. I don't watch TV anymore, but I watched 60 Minutes a lot many years ago. Maybe I was more naive back then but it seems to me that they did pretty serious journalism, regardless of any editorial twist, it was at least real investigative news.

[lunasun]

46. I am not disabled or anything but I agree this SHOULD be the story many unenlightened need to see

a huge, forgotten sector of poverty
which in it self is demonized although often people in poverty are not at fault but nonetheless condemned by ignorance and /or false values of superiority (think Rmoney's 47% )
That is what should shock the Tv watchers -how disabled live and also how many are vets forgotten after wars and also the different aspects of what can disable a person
yes this should be the story but 60 mins?
instead just a retro Reagan redo, this time on disability

[G_j]

56. yes

and how people end up homeless and disabled. All the stuff I'm reading tonight makes me think of Charles Dickens.

[lunasun]

59. yes possibly look for orphans to be the next to be dragged though the mud

as a drain on society.............

[totodeinhere]

44. It's impossible to design a program like this that doesn't have at least some minimal level of

fraud. The same applies to SNAP and other government programs. But abuse and fraud is a very minor problem. Study after study has shown that. Where there is legitimate fraud and it can be proved then by all means take action. But the right wing is using the excuse of fraud as a means to discredit these programs and do away with them entirely if they can. Most disability recipients are honest people who if anything deserve more support than they are getting now. Anyone who criticizes the program needs to try living on such a small income and see how they like it.

[duffyduff]

54. For crying out loud. The message from the broadcast is "fraud" is rampant.

It's just total bullshit.

[totodeinhere]

63. I don't agree that it's rampant. An assertion like that plays right into the hands of

the right wing. As I just said there is some minimal level of fraud but the vast majority of recipients are honest and deserving.

[Nine]

65. You nailed it.

I saw some of the 60 Minutes piece as it was on in the background. It's not a show I usually watch. One thing that pissed me off was them talking about how so many more disability applicants now have lawyers than did in the past - as if there's something wrong with using legal representation.

I'm also appalled to see the lawyer-bashing on this thread. I'd expect to see that on a right-wing site, not here.

If there is some fraud in the disability system, as I'm sure there is because there's fraud everywhere, I'm all for fixing it. These Republicans don't want to fix it, they want to kill it, just as they want to kill ACA.

[closeupready]

78. Only rich people need lawyers; poor people need to plead guilty, period.

It's a fucked-up world we live in where having a lawyer is referred to popularly as "lawyering up", typically a term employed by people who are lawyers themselves (like lawyer Liz Cheney has done at least once as I recall, stating that Guantanomo detainees were seeking to 'lawyer up' in trying to bring cases into federal court).

[Kablooie]

58. Better Call Saul!

It may be shoddy reporting, I didn't see it, but ambulance chasers exist and it's not wrong exposing them.

[Skidmore]

60. Steve Croft?

Did I guess correctly?

[Archae]

66. Yes.

I think Croft has a record of right-wing slanted stories.

[Pakid]

62. The last time I looked a lawyer was except to protect his clients confidentially

I guess that is no longer the case. If a doctor believes that his patients is disable then where does his lawyer get of claiming otherwise? Maybe the ABA should start taking a long hard look at these lawyers. As if that would ever happen in the America of today land of the greed and dishonest rich and terrorist GOP politicians

[ohheckyeah]

64. The only attempt at fairness I saw,

was the fact that some of the people are desperate because unemployment ran out and they couldn't find a job due to age or sickness.

[Tx4obama]

80. UPDATE: A breaking news story in DU LBN, link below

Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014613685

[Phentex]

81. Thanks for the update!

Interesting...sounds like some good came out of the show after all.