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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThey should be tried for treason along with sedition.
A great post was here that showed how these tea baggers were guilty of sedition. I stuck it on Boner's Face Book page and also Ted Cruz's Face Book page. Some guy on Ted Cruz's page jumped on me but he seemed upset and there was back and forth and a couple of people chimed in and took my side. I realized then that treason seemed more appropriate, or at least I think so. Anyway here is the definition. I would love it if some people used it when they called some of our Democratic leaders in case they think it is a good idea to bring charges against the stupid idiots. That would certainly stop them in their tracks and they would not dare go over the ceiling cliff if charges of treason were looming against them. And I think they fit the definition. I also told Cruz that we know about how they planned this from the time of Obama's second inauguration and that it was funded by the Koch brothers. The fact that at his first inauguration their big plan was to ruin the president is attempting to overthrow the government right there.
Treason-the crime of betraying one's country, esp. by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government, treachery, disloyalty, betrayal, faithlessness, sedition, subversion, mutiny, rebellion; high treason,lèse-majesté;apostasy;
literaryperfidy
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Sedition is an attempt to overthrow the government by armed force.
Maraya1969
(22,474 posts)In law, sedition is overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that is deemed by the legal authority to tend toward insurrection against the established order. Sedition often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent (or resistance) to lawful authority. Sedition may include any commotion, though not aimed at direct and open violence against the laws. Seditious words in writing are seditious libel. A seditionist is one who engages in or promotes the interests of sedition.
Decaffeinated
(556 posts)Which speech would you arrest them for?
Their votes in the house and senate? Only the ones who made speeches on the floor? In their home towns? On TV?
What do you think would be an appropriate punishment for the crime?
10 years? 50? Death (which is the traditional punishment for treason and sedition)?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)means what the "This is treason! " crowd is saying is you must accept their demands or become a political prisoner (or worse). They are criminalizing dissent which actually would be the overthrow of the constitution by armed force. Assuming they aren't buried in the resulting civil calamity they will have become the monsters they claim to battle.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Your fellow instigators.
FreeJoe
(1,039 posts)Please tell me that we are not going to become the party advocating criminalizing political speech and disagreements. What they are doing is a bad idea. We need to win the battle of public opinion. We do not need to advocate rounding up and arresting our political opponents. Please leave the totalitarianism to the other side.
cali
(114,904 posts)Maraya1969
(22,474 posts)the government and they planned it from the day of his last inauguration and it has been funded by the Koch brothers. It has been in the making for 2 years.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Last edited Tue Oct 8, 2013, 02:09 PM - Edit history (1)
Every party thinks the other party is bad for the country. That's not treason that's a reason to GOTV.
cali
(114,904 posts)MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)It just isn't, and Congressional immunity for legislative acts (including voting) is a longstanding, well-understood principle of US Constitutional law, and it is defended by US justices from all political backgrounds.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Congressional+immunity
Go ahead, get mad, but channel your wrath into the elections, where you have all the power, and not into this totally unfounded theory you are propounding, which is an utter waste.
Contact your representative. Contact your local Democratic committee. Give money or time to working for them. Email the offices of the people you want to arrest for treason, and enclose an image of the check you just wrote to a Democratic entity. Tell them how you view what they are doing, and that you will throw your time, money and vote into getting them defeated at the ballot box. That's productive. This isn't.
longship
(40,416 posts)of which too many here seem to be ignorant.
1. One cannot commit sedition with words. The First Amendment gives protection for that. There is no such thing as seditious talk in the USA.
2. Sedition has got to be an action against the government. Political action is, by definition, action within the government. It may be reprehensible and indefensible, but that's why we have elections.
3. Treason is totally off the table. Of course, you won't know that if you quote dictionary definitions and you don't know Article III, Section 3 of the US Constitution which specifically states what treason means under US law. I won't quote it here, because I'm sick and tired of cutting and pasting it from Wiki. Look it up yourself.
But I will remind people of the historic significance of Art III, Sec 3. It is in the Constitution because historically the charge of treason had been used politically which is precisely why Jefferson and Madison put the legal definition in there to begin with. And if you don't understand that fact, I cannot help you.
Suffice it to say, what the Republicans are doing is disgusting and reprehensible, but calling it sedition or treason is at best hyperbole, or at worst sleazy tactics by people who do not understand the founding document of our republic and its historic context.
Do I have to remind people that the solution to this issue is to take political action to vote the idiots out. Screaming sedition and treason isn't going to do that. That only sounds like crazy Tea Bagger rhetoric.
Use ad hominem all you want. Yes, they're crazy and whatever else you want to say. But sedition and treason mean something specific in the USA. You raise arms against the government, that's sedition. You aid an enemy during time of war, that's treason (for details see Art III, Sec 3).
I'm done here except to agree with another responder that these facts have posted here about 18,494 times. (Okay, hyperbole. This time deserved, IMHO.)
These hyperbolic posts seem to be like unsinkable rubber duckies. People do not want to learn.
And by the way, the GOP are asshole mother rapers. See, that's how you do ad hominem.
fasttense
(17,301 posts)In fact elections are what got us here. Rigged, gerrymandered, uncountable, manipulated and fraudulent elections and voting results (such as the Dancing Supremes declaring the bushes the supreme leader). Disenfranchisement laws like denying the use of student IDs, and making voting a difficult chore to accomplish if you are poor, are what is causing the success of Teabaggers.
And there are very few ways to recall corrupt and abusive elected leaders once they get into office.
The entire economic and political system is broken. It must be replaced or we will have ridiculous political dramas and mass income inequality to rival that of the feudal systems.
If you want to stop this government shutdown, march on DC NOW and demand RepubliCON House members get back to work. If only 1% of the population marched on DC it would scare the piss out of the Teabaggers and the rest of congress.
Decaffeinated
(556 posts)... or just change it until you get the results and politicians you want?
fasttense
(17,301 posts)And make them over. But for now your vote has a 50/50 chance of being counted. So, I would NOT give up trying to vote, but it can no longer be the only thing you do.
In fact if you were to do only 1 thing, I would say getting out in the streets of DC and marching against the RepubliCONS would be the MOST effective political action you can take.
meanit
(455 posts)that the election process is corrupted in many areas and needs to be fixed.
You don't see a problem with gerrymandering or voter suppression?
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)against political opponents in a wholly unconstitutional way.
This should concern liberals and conservatives alike.
meanit
(455 posts)They wrote it and got it into law due to the events of 9/11, and they have no problem using it. Think the tea party would be too timid to use it against political opponents?
You may or may not have had to enforce some provision of the Patriot Act if you are federal law enforcement. If Republicans violated a law under the Patriot Act why shouldn't they be prosecuted under it?
longship
(40,416 posts)Because in our democratic republic that is the answer. We wouldn't be in this situation if more people had voted because there are not enough Republicans. If enough people had voted, the Democrats would still have the House.
Maraya1969
(22,474 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)In this case, Bohner's refusal to bring the CR to vote. The "Hastert Rule" is not an official rule, law or regulation. What legal or constitutional grounds does Bohner have to deny Congress its *obligation* to vote on the CR?
The 14th amendment says that the US will not default on its debts. Period. Refusing to do so -- blocking the Congress for doing its job -- is an *action* that can bring down the US economy and the US government.
I understand what you are saying about throwing terms around sounding like rightwing nutcases. But the question here is not are people just screaming "Sedition?" The question is whether or not Bohner's blocking Congress from doing its job, with full knowledge and intent that it will cause the US to default, meets the definition of sedition.
It is *not* just Bohner's words. It is his *actions,* in that he is actively preventing Congress from voting and forcing a default that could bring down the economy and the government.
longship
(40,416 posts)Members of congress are immune to arrest for their political actions, as it should be.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)"They shall in all cases, except treason, felony and breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest "
While I realize they won't be arrested, any more than Bush, Cheney, et al will be arrested for war crimes, that doesn't mean Boehner and company aren't committing treason. If they force default, their actions will violate the 14th amendment.
longship
(40,416 posts)Article III, Section 3.
First, you need to read it. Next, you need to understand why it was put in there. Then, you'll understand why political actions cannot be treason.
I'm done here.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)in a law suit would probably hit them where it hurts...Financially. I am not a lawyer, but I am sure there must be one on DU who could come up with a good reason to take these guys into court...and get some satisfaction that they have had a loss financially. Of course with them being rich, they probably could hire a great defense attorney, but it would still cost them in the end, with court fees..if they were to lose.
It seems obvious, they seem to be above the law...and Republicans do not think, that many laws apply to them. I doubt anyone will get arrested or otherwise be subdued in anyway or form. But the damage, they do...could tie them up in court for some time.
Attorneys feel free to jump in here.. I am grasping for straws at this point.
Maraya1969
(22,474 posts)has lost their home because they were furloughed or could not eat or get their medication and got sick. People must be suffering in all sorts of ways and these republicans have stated many times that it was all about defunding a law that was passed legally.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)law suits in the making.
dairydog91
(951 posts)And there can be major penalties for filing frivolous claims. If such a suit was brought by a citizen or citizens against a Congressman, on the wholly specious grounds that his decision to vote one way or another is "seditious", the plaintiffs are going to end up paying his legal fees.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)on account of this, no one can be sued?
dairydog91
(951 posts)If Congress voted to defund World War II in the middle of the Battle of the Ardennes, and the entire U.S. military collapsed in a rout, and suffered hundreds of thousands of dead, that would be a fully Constitutional use of Congress's power to fund the government.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)If a company makes a product, that poisons customers, often family members can sue the company for wrongful death... With the Republicans holding back on funding the Government, there by causing the death of several children, who were getting Cancer care.. and leaving no options open for poor income families, it would seem to me that people should be able to sue those who blocked those payments and shut down those services.
As I said, I am not a Lawyer, and I would like to hear from someone who knows the law in this case, as to what could or could not be done.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)involving their votes or non votes on a specific issue.
In my profession, I've often tangled with defense lawyers, so I don't have a high regard for them, therefore, my view of lawyers is tainted.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)You thought only as far as getting a judge to tell a congressperson that they voted the wrong way and ordering them to change their vote to the way you wanted the vote to go.
That would quickly lead to both sides being smothered in lawsuits, and unelected judges taking over the role of the legislature.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)I would be happy to be EDUCATED as to what can be done... have at it hoss.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Others have posted the answer. Get out the vote in 2014. Until then, live with it.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)WOW.... That answer is about as great as when Bush got "selected" and Republicans said... GET OVER IT. Great response there!
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Sometimes the other side wins. We get another turn in 2014. Until then, we live with it.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)For Tea Baggers? Are you sure you are on the correct website?
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)If you are promoting authoritarianism, are YOU on the right site?
The ONLY way to protect your and my political liberty is to protect EVERYONE'S political liberty, including the Tea Partiers and the Communist Party USA, the American Nazi Party, the KKK, and lots of other unsavory groups. If you use the power of gov't to suppress any group's freedom, then sooner or later you will find that power being used against you.
Political Tolerance is a cornerstone of democracy. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand democracy.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)And I should roar in laughter when people like Rush Limbaugh says "Ching Chong, Ching Chong, Ching Chong" ? Is that what you are selling? Because, my friend I am not buying into this... Okay?
Watashi wa hito shusabetsu shugi-sha o yonin suru hitsuyo wa arimasen. I do not have to tolerate racists.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)The American Civil Liberties Union defended the right of the American Nazis to march in a town in Illinois, and defended Rush Limbaugh's right to the privacy of his medical records. I assume you realize that the American Nazis are extreme Racists. In defending the American Nazis rights, they also defended yours. In defending Rush's right to medical privacy, they defended yours.
If you deny political rights to you enemies, you will one day lose your own political rights.
Evelyn Beatrice Hall, in her biograph of Voltaire, in describing his beliefs, wrote, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." That statement is the essence of democracy, its foundation. Until you understand it as more than just some words you do not understand democracy.
So Racists also have the right to speak and even the right to vote.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)I don't have to put up with Racists in my face, and ...I turn off hate radio. I don't have to tolerate them in chat rooms, nor on websites like this one.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)The 1st Amendment does not apply to private venues, such as this site, nor are you forced to listen to any station on the radio. But you are not allowed to attempt to use the power of gov't to silence those voices that you disagree with. Nor can you jail political opponents.
If a Tea Party member wins an election to Congress they can sit in Congress and say what they want, vote or not vote as they please, and you can't get any judge to try to tell them how to vote. If you remember you started out wanting to sue congresspersons to make them vote the way you want. You can't do that. Democracies don't work that way.
So if a racist gets elected to Congress, yes, you have to tolerate it. Or you can admit that you don't want a democracy but instead want a dictatorship.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)better?
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)You are the one who is taking the authoritarian stance.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)Hurt by these assholes. People are going to die because of this government shutdown... others will suffer... and some people are just fine and dandy with that... aren't they? The US government made a promise to Veterans to help give them aide, because of wounds and problems they received while serving their country. People will lose their homes, and there will be many hardships because the Republicans are demanding that they get their way 100%. It MIGHT be legal, but its morally wrong.
So, shoot me for caring.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Do you think a dictatorship would be wonderfully caring? In the name of caring and compassion you would destroy democracy.
You want judges to tell congresspersons how to vote. What do you do when the judge orders your favorite congressperson to vote the way you don't want? Then what? The judge is unelected. You can't vote him out of office.
If your judges started telling your opponents congressperson how to vote, against the wishes of the PEOPLE who voted them in, how long do you think they would put up with it. You want them to pay their taxes, but not be allowed to have the representatives that they want. You want to control their representatives. Does "Taxation without representation is tyranny" sound familiar to you? You would start a real shooting civil war. Are you ready for that? Did you think ahead to what would happen when you deny people their chosen representation?
You want to deluge the Tea Party congressperson with lawsuits, in the name of caring. How long do you think it would take for the RW to respond in kind? Your favorite congressperson would be buried in lawsuits the next day. Are you sure you want to start that kind of mess? Did you even think that far ahead?
Caring is nice, but thinking is better.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)You have me craving a dictatorship, starting a shooting Civil war and since I am a woman, accusing me for using my feelings over thinking. Oh, and since I am Asian, I should be accepting racism as, par for the course.
I must have hit the Trifecta today. What a perfect ending to a glorious day.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)The alternative is dictatorship.
People do tend to shoot at dictators and rebel against them. History is replete with such rebellions.
You being a woman has nothing to do with it. You are the one who claimed to be so caring. I advise that being thinking is better.
Being Asian has nothing to do with it. If you want a democracy, then you have to allow even assholes to have their rights to their beliefs and the right to speak them. You don't seem to be able to understand that.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)From the US PATRIOT Act,
http://epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html
(a) DOMESTIC TERRORISM DEFINED- Section 2331 of title 18, United States Code, is amended--
(1) in paragraph (1)(B)(iii), by striking `by assassination or kidnapping' and inserting `by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping';
(2) in paragraph (3), by striking `and';
(3) in paragraph (4), by striking the period at the end and inserting `; and'; and
(4) by adding at the end the following:
`(5) the term `domestic terrorism' means activities that--
`(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
`(B) appear to be intended--
`(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
`(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion;or
`(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
`(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.'.
(b) CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Section 3077(1) of title 18, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:
`(1) `act of terrorism' means an act of domestic or international terrorism as defined in section 2331;'.
-----
http://publicintelligence.net/the-continually-expanding-definition-of-terrorism/
<snip>
One of the defining features of terrorist acts has always been a component of violence. Even under the expanded definition of terrorism created by the USA PATRIOT Act, there must be an act that is dangerous to human life indicating some form of physical harm to others could arise from the action. However, the Homeland Security Act of 2002, which created the Department of Homeland Security, extended the definition of terrorism further by including any act that is damaging to critical infrastructure or key resources. Though this definition differs from the legal definition of international and domestic terrorism under 18 USC § 2331, the modified definition is currently used by DHS as the basis for their own activities and intelligence products that are disseminated to federal, state and local law enforcement. The modified definition of terrorism is presented in a revised Domestic Terrorism and Homegrown Violent Extremism Lexicon published last year by DHS:
Notice that the statement potentially destructive to critical infrastructure or key resources is part of a disjunction, indicating that the act need not be dangerous to human life for it to be considered an act of terrorism. This means that, according to DHS, a non-violent actor could be capable of committing an act of terrorism simply by engaging in potentially destructive behavior towards some part of the nations critical infrastructure. Due to the fact that large sections of domestic infrastructure, including everything from banks to bridges to milk processing plants, are now considered critical infrastructure, a wide range of potentially destructive actions could be investigated by DHS or any one of the dozens of fusion centers around the country as potential acts of terrorism. The DHS Domestic Terrorism Lexicon states that the definitions presented in the document are designed to assist federal, state, and local government officials with the mission to detect, identify, and understand threats of terrorism against the United States by facilitating a common understanding of the terms and definitions that describe terrorist threats to the United States.
<snip>
Maraya1969
(22,474 posts)dairydog91
(951 posts)Specifically, it is the portion of the government with the near-exclusive power to decide what is and is not law (SCOTUS interprets, while POTUS may veto or refuse to enforce). Congress cannot intimidate itself, any more than you could punch yourself in the face and then sue yourself for assault.
G_j
(40,366 posts)I think that point at least can be argued
dairydog91
(951 posts)The Patriot Act requires that whatever is being counted as terrorist action be illegal, under it or under some other law. A decision by Congress to vote or not to vote on a law is part of its Constitutional role as the legislative power, and is ipso facto legal under the Constitution.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)the population is highly pissed off over this repub. clusterfuck and likely to vote these jackwagons out of office.
G_j
(40,366 posts)one can make the case that these things are being deliberately threatened by threatening to damage the US/world economy.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)not use dubious laws like the Patriot Act or unsupportable laws like sedition or treason.
That's a road we don't want to go down as it will surely backfire on us eventually.
G_j
(40,366 posts)but I think it is appropraite to point out that they are threatening to seriously injur the country and if they were not part the government the wordings of these laws could very well apply to them.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Does the mere fact they claim this entitle them to the sort of remedies you describe?
G_j
(40,366 posts)because it is common knowledge that it will hurt the economy to some extent, it already is hurting. However, as I said, I don't actually advocate attempting to apply these laws to Congress.
I do think it is not hyperbole though to point out that if an "enemy" threatened to damage the US economy, it would be taken seriously.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)however, I think that threatening to charge the Congress with articles of the Patriot Act is counterproductive and would badly compromise our Constitution.
I commend you for not aligning yourself with those that would use the Patriot Act to go after these jackwagons.
G_j
(40,366 posts)for the PATRIOT Act needs to be rescinded.
I guess, I react mainly to calls for us to tone down the language we use to describe what is going on. This is not business as usual. Even Obama is using words like "extortion" and "held hostage".
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)it really is starting to get out of control and I fear for the consequences to our nation.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)It's always an option to NOT hurt the US economy by negotiating with the opposition. By definition if you hold out against ending the stalemate for political considerations ("If we cave they'll keep doing this!" then you become party to crashing the economy over political reasons. Then there is no sedition/hostage taking/whatever (not that there ever was) just political he-said/she-said to be sorted out during the next election cycle.
In practical terms we're going to have to balance the budget some day. If we keep borrowing and debt service exceeds tax receipts then we will default. Refusing to raise the debt limit doesn't cause a default, we can still service our debt from actual receipts per the 14A, we just find ourselves in a de facto balanced budget situation because we cannot conduct additional deficit spending for the remainder of government functions. THAT would be catastrophic because it pulls too much money too fast from the economy. I say head them off at the pass and demand a return to the Clinton era budgets adjusted for inflation (HINT -- it would also pave the way for a certain candidate to succeed Obama).
G_j
(40,366 posts)(because you don't hear it mentioned)
It would be very simple to stipulate in each spending bill that the debt ceiling would rise by said amount. The whole showdown could be avoided.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Should congress be allowed to appropriate so much debt that tax receipts could not service that debt, let alone pay it down (i.e. bankruptcy) without first having to hear from the American people?
Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #68)
G_j This message was self-deleted by its author.
G_j
(40,366 posts)you have to pay for it.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)The debt limit is decided BEFORE the threshold is reached through appropriations.
If you really think war is a racket, imagine a government that could automatically raise its debt ceiling through war appropriations with no public debate about just how much debt is being accrued. All a POTUS would have to do would be to but this and send troops there and suddenly the American public is obligated with no opportunity to tell their elected officials what idiots they are. The powers are divided for a reason. Yes, that leads the gridlock but that isn't a bug, that's a feature.
G_j
(40,366 posts)Shouldn't the debate take place before a bill is voted on? Isn't that where the debate is supposed to take place?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)The DL is debated several fiscal cycles prior in the hopes those chuckleheads can get their collective act together.
G_j
(40,366 posts)is below, I keep replying to the wrong comment..lol
Kingofalldems
(38,442 posts)Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)But the House of Representatives is part of the government exercising a constitutionally provided power, so fantasy it must remain.
If you turn it around, and think of a House with a Dem majority having enough of its members arrested you would be able to see just how this fantasy would become a nightmare in practice. It HAS been done before, and never with a good outcome.
And here I quote from the Constitution, Section 6:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei#section6
If any power attempted to arrest any of these people, the thumping they would get from the courts would resound throughout the country - an attempt to do so would in fact be an impeachable offense.
By definition treason cannot be an exercise of their powers granted in the Constitution, which each of them, whether pro or con, is now exercising in their votes, deliberation and advocacy.
Maraya1969
(22,474 posts)I have seen it among coworkers, friends, relatives and now among political parties ...
people who complain, throw tantrums etc are treated by everyone around with kid gloves .. no one wants to deal with the aftermath of setting them off ...
what happens in the end? - everyone tip toes around them and give their needs more importance at the expense of normal folks ...
Maybe the Democrats should start throwing temper tantrums too ...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
When the Republicans impeached Bill Clinton did they really think they were going to throw Bill Clinton out of office? I don't think so. They just wanted the act of impeachment. I think if some lawyer files treason crimes against certain tea party members it would scare the shit out of them and there bullshit would stop right fast.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)There would be a real risk using such a serious charge in such a frivolous way.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)No, engaging in civil processes can never be treason.
Congressmen voting can never be treason, even if we don't like their votes and even if we believe they are harmful. By constitutional definition and SC decision, no political speech or act by a representative in the normal course of their constitutional duties can be used as a basis of an accusation of crime.
Think about it! A vote by a representative or senator, even if it is against the administration during the course of a war, can never meet the legal definition of treason.
Your claim here makes no sense. Would you like to see a George Bush arresting members of Congress who had refused to vote for his policies in Iraq, or refused to vote for the AUMF? Think about it! What you are advocating is MADNESS.
The doctrine of Congressional Immunity is well-known and has sometimes come up in SC cases:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Congressional+immunity
Article I, Section 6, Clause 1, of the U.S. Constitution states in part,
for any Speech or Debate in either House, [senators and representatives] shall not be questioned in any other place.
The purpose of the clause is to prevent the arrest and prosecution of unpopular legislators based on their political views.
The U.S. Supreme Court has gradually defined and redefined the Speech or Debate Clause in several cases over the years. The first case concerning the Speech and Debate Clause was Kilbourn v. Thompson, 103 U.S. (13 Otto) 168, 26 L. Ed. 377 (1880). The Court has interpreted the Speech or Debate Clause to mean that members of Congress and their aides are immune from prosecution for their "legislative acts." This does not mean that members of Congress and their aides may not be prosecuted. Rather, evidence of legislative acts may not be used in a prosecution against a member of Congress or a congressional aide.
The main controversy surrounding the Speech or Debate Clause concerns the scope of the phrase "legislative acts." The phrase obviously encompasses speeches and debates on the floor of the Senate or the House of Representatives. According to the Supreme Court, voting, preparing committee reports, and conducting committee hearings also are legislative acts, but republishing legislative materials for distribution to constituents and accepting a bribe to influence a vote are not.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)What foreign power are they acting on behalf of? What declared war are we ingaged in?
Perhaps you should read the Constitution.
BluegrassStateBlues
(881 posts)and ran out of town on a rail.
Abq_Sarah
(2,883 posts)But you really need to calm down and ask yourself what you're doing on this site if you support Authoritarianism.
Differences of opinion on any matter and ideological differences ARE NOT TREASONOUS.
Pick up a freaking civics book to see how our government is designed to operate.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)I cannot imagine any thinking person who would like a president to whom they were opposed have the right to arrest the Congressional representatives or senators with whom they did not agree. George Bush might have had us fighting in 30 countries by the end of his second term. Because he believed, oh, yes, he believed.
That's how Rome became an Empire and that's how Hitler got control of government in Germany.
Our Constitution forbids it and well it should. We do get to vote the bozos out for their votes. Sometimes it's more pleasurable than other times.
To repetitively see this nonsense on DU is beginning to bother me, because being a democracy does require letting the country make its own mistakes and then have to deal with them. Also, I think DU serves a huge educational function, and I hate to see that failing.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)HappyMe
(20,277 posts)HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)How can any progressive support using the Patriot Act, an abomination of the 2nd Bush admin., to justify arresting and charging a sitting member of Congress with sedition or treason?
I just don't get it.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)Because it fits our purpose? Is that bad?
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)That's why things like this escape them, they have their team, they support the QB, all the time, just fans.
libodem
(19,288 posts)And lose their FN jobs.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)The only way is to vote them out of office on Nov. 4, 2014.
libodem
(19,288 posts)I'm frustrated. They are doing nothing but obstructing 'The Peoples'' business and promoting the Koch Bros agenda to strip this country into a wage slave, third world, Dictatorship. I think Capitalism has trumped Democracy. We've been sold out and bought off.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)vote every one of those obstructionists out of office and vote in those that will do the peoples work.
libodem
(19,288 posts)But it's all cool. I get less of that since I changed my Avatar, from the Aquateen Hunger Force, characters.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)Still new here and still learning.
libodem
(19,288 posts)It is oddly disorienting. You think you have it pegged and dayum, they gotcha. Sometimes even in profiles people choose to leave it out, so you don't know. And sometimes the user name is ambiguous. Like mine, I suppose. You just can't tell. Maybe someday it will no longer matter.
Until then, I still wonder about, Pat.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Samantha
(9,314 posts)Economic Treason: The definition of "treason" and could Republicans be guilty of this crime? Part 2
and a link to a post which I wrote last night:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3805508
This is not mere politics although it is being made to appear to be
I hope you can use this info.
Regards,
Sam
Response to Maraya1969 (Original post)
cali This message was self-deleted by its author.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)He is the one who allowed the Paula Jones civil case to go forward, claiming that it wouldn't take the president any more time to handle that it took him to play a round of golf. Five years and many millions of dollars later, Clinton was almost thrown out of office by assholes like Scalia.
He doesn't like ladies cursing?
Hey Scalia, you old bastard, why don't you go FUCK yourself????
Ahhhhhhh, that felt good.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)because they fucking deserve it.
tritsofme
(17,372 posts)This is America, we do not criminalize politics. We do not put our opponents in jail, we beat them at the ballot box. Are you willing to give George Bush or Ted Cruz such power as president?
This authoritarian impulse running through DU the past few days has been very disturbing. As others have pointed out, you have badly misunderstood the meaning of these terms in American law.