Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Maraya1969

(22,474 posts)
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 04:57 AM Oct 2013

They should be tried for treason along with sedition.

A great post was here that showed how these tea baggers were guilty of sedition. I stuck it on Boner's Face Book page and also Ted Cruz's Face Book page. Some guy on Ted Cruz's page jumped on me but he seemed upset and there was back and forth and a couple of people chimed in and took my side. I realized then that treason seemed more appropriate, or at least I think so. Anyway here is the definition. I would love it if some people used it when they called some of our Democratic leaders in case they think it is a good idea to bring charges against the stupid idiots. That would certainly stop them in their tracks and they would not dare go over the ceiling cliff if charges of treason were looming against them. And I think they fit the definition. I also told Cruz that we know about how they planned this from the time of Obama's second inauguration and that it was funded by the Koch brothers. The fact that at his first inauguration their big plan was to ruin the president is attempting to overthrow the government right there.


Treason
-the crime of betraying one's country, esp. by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government, treachery, disloyalty, betrayal, faithlessness, sedition, subversion, mutiny, rebellion; high treason,lèse-majesté;apostasy;
literaryperfidy

105 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
They should be tried for treason along with sedition. (Original Post) Maraya1969 Oct 2013 OP
Because the other 18,347 times this has been debunked weren't sufficient Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #1
It doesn't have to be armed force. It can be speeches or surreptitious behavior. Maraya1969 Oct 2013 #2
Really? Decaffeinated Oct 2013 #4
Which, let's admit, would enrage the opposition and independent voters because it effectively Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #7
No, sedition laws in the US require armed force. The statute has been posted numerous times by Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #6
Good Lord FreeJoe Oct 2013 #67
please see my sig line and apply liberally. for fuck's sake. cali Oct 2013 #70
Besides I think treason is a better word for what they are doing. There are bringing down Maraya1969 Oct 2013 #3
What is this McCarthyist mania that has suddenly gripped so many? Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #5
sickening, but it's just so fucking moronic as well. idiots. cali Oct 2013 #71
Article 3 section 3 of the US Constitution begs to differ MNBrewer Oct 2013 #19
Treason is not voting in a way that we disagree with, Maraya Yo_Mama Oct 2013 #63
There's a little matter of the US Constitution. longship Oct 2013 #8
Elections are NOT the solution fasttense Oct 2013 #9
So get rid of the voting process? Decaffeinated Oct 2013 #14
I think in the end we will get rid of all the processes. fasttense Oct 2013 #15
I think the point was made clearly meanit Oct 2013 #64
No, our problem is trying to use the despicable Patriot Act Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #69
The conservatives are fine with the Patriot Act meanit Oct 2013 #82
I am all for a march in DC, but people gotta vote. longship Oct 2013 #39
You don't have to add the snark. I've seen one post on sedition. That's why I posted on treason. Maraya1969 Oct 2013 #11
Sedition is *action* magical thyme Oct 2013 #20
Read response 29 down thread. longship Oct 2013 #43
not entirely... magical thyme Oct 2013 #48
Well, as I pointed out, treason is defined in the Constitution, too. longship Oct 2013 #49
Excellent !! N/T GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #83
I always thought the idea of many.. many people taking these guys to court ... yuiyoshida Oct 2013 #10
Even the media and the irritation of having to go to a civil court would be worth it. If someone Maraya1969 Oct 2013 #12
See, there you go...potential yuiyoshida Oct 2013 #13
Such a lawsuit is frivolous and should be penalized as such. dairydog91 Oct 2013 #16
So...it someone dies yuiyoshida Oct 2013 #18
For sedition? With a vote as the gravamen of the complaint? Correct. dairydog91 Oct 2013 #21
I am talking about personal lawsuits... yuiyoshida Oct 2013 #32
I'm not a lawyer either, but I think the congress is immune from civil lawsuits Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #37
You didn't think that all the way through did you? GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #84
Sorry I am not a lawyer... yuiyoshida Oct 2013 #85
It doesn't take a lawyer to think things through that far. GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #87
Live with it? yuiyoshida Oct 2013 #88
Political tolerance is part of democracy. GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #89
Wow...you are promoting Political Tolerance yuiyoshida Oct 2013 #90
Absolutely, Yes. GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #91
So I should just tolerate Racists? yuiyoshida Oct 2013 #92
Yes. GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #94
I don't care how they VOTE...that is up to them, however... yuiyoshida Oct 2013 #95
We are talking about in Congress and in public, not in private. GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #96
Even if that person... thinks a Dictatorship would be yuiyoshida Oct 2013 #97
I am against dictatorships. GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #98
No...I just don't want people yuiyoshida Oct 2013 #99
All your caring still does not entitle you to have a dictatorship. GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #102
Wow this is fun... yuiyoshida Oct 2013 #103
Your postings prove that you don't want democracy. GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #104
Sayonara.. yuiyoshida Oct 2013 #105
-- G_j Oct 2013 #17
I like it. Maraya1969 Oct 2013 #22
Congress IS the government. dairydog91 Oct 2013 #23
what about intimidating the populace? G_j Oct 2013 #25
Congress is NOT breaking any laws. dairydog91 Oct 2013 #26
The population is not being intimidated, Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #27
jobs, investments, retirement G_j Oct 2013 #28
Yes, and the way to correct this is to vote these idiots out of office, Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #30
I don't advocate applying the law G_j Oct 2013 #31
What about the people who claim to have lost jobs and wages to the ACA? Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #33
threatening default, is intimidation G_j Oct 2013 #36
You've got a good point here, Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #40
and you make a good point G_j Oct 2013 #46
Everyone needs to tone down the rhetoric, Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #47
An enemy operates outside the US political process. These are politicians operating in the system Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #62
surprisingly G_j Oct 2013 #66
The reason it's a separate vote is to force a public debate about how much debt the nation accepts Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #68
This message was self-deleted by its author G_j Oct 2013 #72
once you've spent it G_j Oct 2013 #73
Yes, but until it is appropriated it isn't spent. Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #77
I don't get it G_j Oct 2013 #80
Debate for appropriations of debt limit? Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #81
reply G_j Oct 2013 #78
K and R for the Cavers and freepers. Kingofalldems Oct 2013 #24
You are welcome to this fantasy Yo_Mama Oct 2013 #29
It says, "except for treason" and I found this on another thread. Maraya1969 Oct 2013 #50
Or it could backfire badly and turn the teaparty into martyrs. Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #52
You are so, so wrong. Yo_Mama Oct 2013 #55
YOU FAIL !! GreenStormCloud Oct 2013 #86
Tarred, feathered... BluegrassStateBlues Oct 2013 #34
I don't know who got you guys so wound up... Abq_Sarah Oct 2013 #35
I like how you think. Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #42
And hardly Democratic. Yo_Mama Oct 2013 #57
Thank you Abq_Sarah! Puzzledtraveller Oct 2013 #61
Good grief! HappyMe Oct 2013 #38
10000+ Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #41
This doesn't make a lick of sense to me. HappyMe Oct 2013 #44
Me either. Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #45
"How can any progressive support using the Patriot Act,...? oldhippie Oct 2013 #53
We are overrun with people who are just fans, not progressive, not liberal, just fans Puzzledtraveller Oct 2013 #59
And they should be recalled libodem Oct 2013 #51
There's no provision in the Constitution for a recall of fed. officials. Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #54
Then vote them out libodem Oct 2013 #56
I'm right there whit ya brother, Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #60
I'm your sister libodem Oct 2013 #74
So sorry about that. Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #76
I mix up genders here too libodem Oct 2013 #79
Oy vey! Puzzledtraveller Oct 2013 #58
I would like to give you a link to my recent thread which asks a lot of questions on this subject Samantha Oct 2013 #65
This message was self-deleted by its author cali Oct 2013 #75
I have despised this sexist, homophobic, old buzzard since the 90s. Beacool Oct 2013 #93
I've used the term "aid and comfort to the enemy" more than once in this debacle. LaydeeBug Oct 2013 #100
You are just as dangerous as they are. tritsofme Oct 2013 #101

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
1. Because the other 18,347 times this has been debunked weren't sufficient
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 05:02 AM
Oct 2013

Sedition is an attempt to overthrow the government by armed force.

Maraya1969

(22,474 posts)
2. It doesn't have to be armed force. It can be speeches or surreptitious behavior.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 05:13 AM
Oct 2013

In law, sedition is overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that is deemed by the legal authority to tend toward insurrection against the established order. Sedition often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent (or resistance) to lawful authority. Sedition may include any commotion, though not aimed at direct and open violence against the laws. Seditious words in writing are seditious libel. A seditionist is one who engages in or promotes the interests of sedition.

 

Decaffeinated

(556 posts)
4. Really?
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 05:20 AM
Oct 2013

Which speech would you arrest them for?

Their votes in the house and senate? Only the ones who made speeches on the floor? In their home towns? On TV?

What do you think would be an appropriate punishment for the crime?

10 years? 50? Death (which is the traditional punishment for treason and sedition)?

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
7. Which, let's admit, would enrage the opposition and independent voters because it effectively
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 05:37 AM
Oct 2013

means what the "This is treason! " crowd is saying is you must accept their demands or become a political prisoner (or worse). They are criminalizing dissent which actually would be the overthrow of the constitution by armed force. Assuming they aren't buried in the resulting civil calamity they will have become the monsters they claim to battle.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
6. No, sedition laws in the US require armed force. The statute has been posted numerous times by
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 05:27 AM
Oct 2013

Your fellow instigators.

FreeJoe

(1,039 posts)
67. Good Lord
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 01:59 PM
Oct 2013

Please tell me that we are not going to become the party advocating criminalizing political speech and disagreements. What they are doing is a bad idea. We need to win the battle of public opinion. We do not need to advocate rounding up and arresting our political opponents. Please leave the totalitarianism to the other side.

Maraya1969

(22,474 posts)
3. Besides I think treason is a better word for what they are doing. There are bringing down
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 05:16 AM
Oct 2013

the government and they planned it from the day of his last inauguration and it has been funded by the Koch brothers. It has been in the making for 2 years.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
5. What is this McCarthyist mania that has suddenly gripped so many?
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 05:21 AM
Oct 2013

Last edited Tue Oct 8, 2013, 02:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Every party thinks the other party is bad for the country. That's not treason that's a reason to GOTV.

MNBrewer

(8,462 posts)
19. Article 3 section 3 of the US Constitution begs to differ
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:09 AM
Oct 2013

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
63. Treason is not voting in a way that we disagree with, Maraya
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 01:22 PM
Oct 2013

It just isn't, and Congressional immunity for legislative acts (including voting) is a longstanding, well-understood principle of US Constitutional law, and it is defended by US justices from all political backgrounds.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Congressional+immunity

Go ahead, get mad, but channel your wrath into the elections, where you have all the power, and not into this totally unfounded theory you are propounding, which is an utter waste.

Contact your representative. Contact your local Democratic committee. Give money or time to working for them. Email the offices of the people you want to arrest for treason, and enclose an image of the check you just wrote to a Democratic entity. Tell them how you view what they are doing, and that you will throw your time, money and vote into getting them defeated at the ballot box. That's productive. This isn't.

longship

(40,416 posts)
8. There's a little matter of the US Constitution.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 05:47 AM
Oct 2013

of which too many here seem to be ignorant.

1. One cannot commit sedition with words. The First Amendment gives protection for that. There is no such thing as seditious talk in the USA.

2. Sedition has got to be an action against the government. Political action is, by definition, action within the government. It may be reprehensible and indefensible, but that's why we have elections.

3. Treason is totally off the table. Of course, you won't know that if you quote dictionary definitions and you don't know Article III, Section 3 of the US Constitution which specifically states what treason means under US law. I won't quote it here, because I'm sick and tired of cutting and pasting it from Wiki. Look it up yourself.

But I will remind people of the historic significance of Art III, Sec 3. It is in the Constitution because historically the charge of treason had been used politically which is precisely why Jefferson and Madison put the legal definition in there to begin with. And if you don't understand that fact, I cannot help you.

Suffice it to say, what the Republicans are doing is disgusting and reprehensible, but calling it sedition or treason is at best hyperbole, or at worst sleazy tactics by people who do not understand the founding document of our republic and its historic context.

Do I have to remind people that the solution to this issue is to take political action to vote the idiots out. Screaming sedition and treason isn't going to do that. That only sounds like crazy Tea Bagger rhetoric.

Use ad hominem all you want. Yes, they're crazy and whatever else you want to say. But sedition and treason mean something specific in the USA. You raise arms against the government, that's sedition. You aid an enemy during time of war, that's treason (for details see Art III, Sec 3).

I'm done here except to agree with another responder that these facts have posted here about 18,494 times. (Okay, hyperbole. This time deserved, IMHO.)

These hyperbolic posts seem to be like unsinkable rubber duckies. People do not want to learn.

And by the way, the GOP are asshole mother rapers. See, that's how you do ad hominem.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
9. Elections are NOT the solution
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 06:16 AM
Oct 2013

In fact elections are what got us here. Rigged, gerrymandered, uncountable, manipulated and fraudulent elections and voting results (such as the Dancing Supremes declaring the bushes the supreme leader). Disenfranchisement laws like denying the use of student IDs, and making voting a difficult chore to accomplish if you are poor, are what is causing the success of Teabaggers.

And there are very few ways to recall corrupt and abusive elected leaders once they get into office.

The entire economic and political system is broken. It must be replaced or we will have ridiculous political dramas and mass income inequality to rival that of the feudal systems.

If you want to stop this government shutdown, march on DC NOW and demand RepubliCON House members get back to work. If only 1% of the population marched on DC it would scare the piss out of the Teabaggers and the rest of congress.

 

Decaffeinated

(556 posts)
14. So get rid of the voting process?
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 07:00 AM
Oct 2013

... or just change it until you get the results and politicians you want?

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
15. I think in the end we will get rid of all the processes.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 09:46 AM
Oct 2013

And make them over. But for now your vote has a 50/50 chance of being counted. So, I would NOT give up trying to vote, but it can no longer be the only thing you do.

In fact if you were to do only 1 thing, I would say getting out in the streets of DC and marching against the RepubliCONS would be the MOST effective political action you can take.

meanit

(455 posts)
64. I think the point was made clearly
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 01:29 PM
Oct 2013

that the election process is corrupted in many areas and needs to be fixed.
You don't see a problem with gerrymandering or voter suppression?

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
69. No, our problem is trying to use the despicable Patriot Act
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 02:04 PM
Oct 2013

against political opponents in a wholly unconstitutional way.
This should concern liberals and conservatives alike.

meanit

(455 posts)
82. The conservatives are fine with the Patriot Act
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 03:34 PM
Oct 2013

They wrote it and got it into law due to the events of 9/11, and they have no problem using it. Think the tea party would be too timid to use it against political opponents?
You may or may not have had to enforce some provision of the Patriot Act if you are federal law enforcement. If Republicans violated a law under the Patriot Act why shouldn't they be prosecuted under it?

longship

(40,416 posts)
39. I am all for a march in DC, but people gotta vote.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:18 AM
Oct 2013

Because in our democratic republic that is the answer. We wouldn't be in this situation if more people had voted because there are not enough Republicans. If enough people had voted, the Democrats would still have the House.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
20. Sedition is *action*
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:10 AM
Oct 2013

In this case, Bohner's refusal to bring the CR to vote. The "Hastert Rule" is not an official rule, law or regulation. What legal or constitutional grounds does Bohner have to deny Congress its *obligation* to vote on the CR?

The 14th amendment says that the US will not default on its debts. Period. Refusing to do so -- blocking the Congress for doing its job -- is an *action* that can bring down the US economy and the US government.

I understand what you are saying about throwing terms around sounding like rightwing nutcases. But the question here is not are people just screaming "Sedition?" The question is whether or not Bohner's blocking Congress from doing its job, with full knowledge and intent that it will cause the US to default, meets the definition of sedition.

It is *not* just Bohner's words. It is his *actions,* in that he is actively preventing Congress from voting and forcing a default that could bring down the economy and the government.

longship

(40,416 posts)
43. Read response 29 down thread.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:22 AM
Oct 2013

Members of congress are immune to arrest for their political actions, as it should be.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
48. not entirely...
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:59 AM
Oct 2013

"They shall in all cases, except treason, felony and breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest "

While I realize they won't be arrested, any more than Bush, Cheney, et al will be arrested for war crimes, that doesn't mean Boehner and company aren't committing treason. If they force default, their actions will violate the 14th amendment.

longship

(40,416 posts)
49. Well, as I pointed out, treason is defined in the Constitution, too.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 12:11 PM
Oct 2013

Article III, Section 3.

First, you need to read it. Next, you need to understand why it was put in there. Then, you'll understand why political actions cannot be treason.

I'm done here.


yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
10. I always thought the idea of many.. many people taking these guys to court ...
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 06:18 AM
Oct 2013

in a law suit would probably hit them where it hurts...Financially. I am not a lawyer, but I am sure there must be one on DU who could come up with a good reason to take these guys into court...and get some satisfaction that they have had a loss financially. Of course with them being rich, they probably could hire a great defense attorney, but it would still cost them in the end, with court fees..if they were to lose.

It seems obvious, they seem to be above the law...and Republicans do not think, that many laws apply to them. I doubt anyone will get arrested or otherwise be subdued in anyway or form. But the damage, they do...could tie them up in court for some time.

Attorneys feel free to jump in here.. I am grasping for straws at this point.

Maraya1969

(22,474 posts)
12. Even the media and the irritation of having to go to a civil court would be worth it. If someone
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 06:48 AM
Oct 2013

has lost their home because they were furloughed or could not eat or get their medication and got sick. People must be suffering in all sorts of ways and these republicans have stated many times that it was all about defunding a law that was passed legally.

dairydog91

(951 posts)
16. Such a lawsuit is frivolous and should be penalized as such.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:01 AM
Oct 2013

And there can be major penalties for filing frivolous claims. If such a suit was brought by a citizen or citizens against a Congressman, on the wholly specious grounds that his decision to vote one way or another is "seditious", the plaintiffs are going to end up paying his legal fees.

dairydog91

(951 posts)
21. For sedition? With a vote as the gravamen of the complaint? Correct.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:13 AM
Oct 2013

If Congress voted to defund World War II in the middle of the Battle of the Ardennes, and the entire U.S. military collapsed in a rout, and suffered hundreds of thousands of dead, that would be a fully Constitutional use of Congress's power to fund the government.

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
32. I am talking about personal lawsuits...
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:03 AM
Oct 2013

If a company makes a product, that poisons customers, often family members can sue the company for wrongful death... With the Republicans holding back on funding the Government, there by causing the death of several children, who were getting Cancer care.. and leaving no options open for poor income families, it would seem to me that people should be able to sue those who blocked those payments and shut down those services.

As I said, I am not a Lawyer, and I would like to hear from someone who knows the law in this case, as to what could or could not be done.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
37. I'm not a lawyer either, but I think the congress is immune from civil lawsuits
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:15 AM
Oct 2013

involving their votes or non votes on a specific issue.
In my profession, I've often tangled with defense lawyers, so I don't have a high regard for them, therefore, my view of lawyers is tainted.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
84. You didn't think that all the way through did you?
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 03:53 PM
Oct 2013

You thought only as far as getting a judge to tell a congressperson that they voted the wrong way and ordering them to change their vote to the way you wanted the vote to go.

That would quickly lead to both sides being smothered in lawsuits, and unelected judges taking over the role of the legislature.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
87. It doesn't take a lawyer to think things through that far.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 04:06 PM
Oct 2013

Others have posted the answer. Get out the vote in 2014. Until then, live with it.

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
88. Live with it?
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 04:11 PM
Oct 2013

WOW.... That answer is about as great as when Bush got "selected" and Republicans said... GET OVER IT. Great response there!

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
89. Political tolerance is part of democracy.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 04:28 PM
Oct 2013

Sometimes the other side wins. We get another turn in 2014. Until then, we live with it.

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
90. Wow...you are promoting Political Tolerance
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 04:29 PM
Oct 2013

For Tea Baggers? Are you sure you are on the correct website?

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
91. Absolutely, Yes.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 04:38 PM
Oct 2013

If you are promoting authoritarianism, are YOU on the right site?

The ONLY way to protect your and my political liberty is to protect EVERYONE'S political liberty, including the Tea Partiers and the Communist Party USA, the American Nazi Party, the KKK, and lots of other unsavory groups. If you use the power of gov't to suppress any group's freedom, then sooner or later you will find that power being used against you.

Political Tolerance is a cornerstone of democracy. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand democracy.

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
92. So I should just tolerate Racists?
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 04:47 PM
Oct 2013

And I should roar in laughter when people like Rush Limbaugh says "Ching Chong, Ching Chong, Ching Chong" ? Is that what you are selling? Because, my friend I am not buying into this... Okay?

Watashi wa hito shusabetsu shugi-sha o yonin suru hitsuyo wa arimasen. I do not have to tolerate racists.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
94. Yes.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 05:04 PM
Oct 2013

The American Civil Liberties Union defended the right of the American Nazis to march in a town in Illinois, and defended Rush Limbaugh's right to the privacy of his medical records. I assume you realize that the American Nazis are extreme Racists. In defending the American Nazis rights, they also defended yours. In defending Rush's right to medical privacy, they defended yours.

If you deny political rights to you enemies, you will one day lose your own political rights.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall, in her biograph of Voltaire, in describing his beliefs, wrote, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." That statement is the essence of democracy, its foundation. Until you understand it as more than just some words you do not understand democracy.

So Racists also have the right to speak and even the right to vote.

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
95. I don't care how they VOTE...that is up to them, however...
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 07:12 PM
Oct 2013

I don't have to put up with Racists in my face, and ...I turn off hate radio. I don't have to tolerate them in chat rooms, nor on websites like this one.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
96. We are talking about in Congress and in public, not in private.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 07:47 PM
Oct 2013

The 1st Amendment does not apply to private venues, such as this site, nor are you forced to listen to any station on the radio. But you are not allowed to attempt to use the power of gov't to silence those voices that you disagree with. Nor can you jail political opponents.

If a Tea Party member wins an election to Congress they can sit in Congress and say what they want, vote or not vote as they please, and you can't get any judge to try to tell them how to vote. If you remember you started out wanting to sue congresspersons to make them vote the way you want. You can't do that. Democracies don't work that way.

So if a racist gets elected to Congress, yes, you have to tolerate it. Or you can admit that you don't want a democracy but instead want a dictatorship.

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
99. No...I just don't want people
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 08:22 PM
Oct 2013

Hurt by these assholes. People are going to die because of this government shutdown... others will suffer... and some people are just fine and dandy with that... aren't they? The US government made a promise to Veterans to help give them aide, because of wounds and problems they received while serving their country. People will lose their homes, and there will be many hardships because the Republicans are demanding that they get their way 100%. It MIGHT be legal, but its morally wrong.

So, shoot me for caring.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
102. All your caring still does not entitle you to have a dictatorship.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 09:11 PM
Oct 2013

Do you think a dictatorship would be wonderfully caring? In the name of caring and compassion you would destroy democracy.

You want judges to tell congresspersons how to vote. What do you do when the judge orders your favorite congressperson to vote the way you don't want? Then what? The judge is unelected. You can't vote him out of office.

If your judges started telling your opponents congressperson how to vote, against the wishes of the PEOPLE who voted them in, how long do you think they would put up with it. You want them to pay their taxes, but not be allowed to have the representatives that they want. You want to control their representatives. Does "Taxation without representation is tyranny" sound familiar to you? You would start a real shooting civil war. Are you ready for that? Did you think ahead to what would happen when you deny people their chosen representation?

You want to deluge the Tea Party congressperson with lawsuits, in the name of caring. How long do you think it would take for the RW to respond in kind? Your favorite congressperson would be buried in lawsuits the next day. Are you sure you want to start that kind of mess? Did you even think that far ahead?

Caring is nice, but thinking is better.

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
103. Wow this is fun...
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 09:31 PM
Oct 2013

You have me craving a dictatorship, starting a shooting Civil war and since I am a woman, accusing me for using my feelings over thinking. Oh, and since I am Asian, I should be accepting racism as, par for the course.

I must have hit the Trifecta today. What a perfect ending to a glorious day.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
104. Your postings prove that you don't want democracy.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 09:48 PM
Oct 2013

The alternative is dictatorship.

People do tend to shoot at dictators and rebel against them. History is replete with such rebellions.

You being a woman has nothing to do with it. You are the one who claimed to be so caring. I advise that being thinking is better.

Being Asian has nothing to do with it. If you want a democracy, then you have to allow even assholes to have their rights to their beliefs and the right to speak them. You don't seem to be able to understand that.

G_j

(40,366 posts)
17. --
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:02 AM
Oct 2013

From the US PATRIOT Act,
http://epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

SEC. 802. DEFINITION OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM.
(a) DOMESTIC TERRORISM DEFINED- Section 2331 of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in paragraph (1)(B)(iii), by striking `by assassination or kidnapping' and inserting `by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping';
(2) in paragraph (3), by striking `and';
(3) in paragraph (4), by striking the period at the end and inserting `; and'; and
(4) by adding at the end the following:
`(5) the term `domestic terrorism' means activities that--
`(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
`(B) appear to be intended--
`(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
`(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion;
or
`(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
`(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.'.
(b) CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Section 3077(1) of title 18, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

`(1) `act of terrorism' means an act of domestic or international terrorism as defined in section 2331;'.



-----
http://publicintelligence.net/the-continually-expanding-definition-of-terrorism/

<snip>

One of the defining features of terrorist acts has always been a component of violence. Even under the expanded definition of terrorism created by the USA PATRIOT Act, there must be an act that is “dangerous to human life” indicating some form of physical harm to others could arise from the action. However, the Homeland Security Act of 2002, which created the Department of Homeland Security, extended the definition of terrorism further by including any act that is “damaging to critical infrastructure or key resources.” Though this definition differs from the legal definition of international and domestic terrorism under 18 USC § 2331, the modified definition is currently used by DHS as the basis for their own activities and intelligence products that are disseminated to federal, state and local law enforcement. The modified definition of terrorism is presented in a revised Domestic Terrorism and Homegrown Violent Extremism Lexicon published last year by DHS:

Any activity that involves an act that is dangerous to human life or potentially destructive to critical infrastructure or key resources, and is a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any state or other subdivision of the United States and appears to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping.


Notice that the statement “potentially destructive to critical infrastructure or key resources” is part of a disjunction, indicating that the act need not be “dangerous to human life” for it to be considered an act of terrorism. This means that, according to DHS, a non-violent actor could be capable of committing an act of terrorism simply by engaging in “potentially destructive” behavior towards some part of the nation’s critical infrastructure. Due to the fact that large sections of domestic infrastructure, including everything from banks to bridges to milk processing plants, are now considered critical infrastructure, a wide range of “potentially destructive” actions could be investigated by DHS or any one of the dozens of fusion centers around the country as potential acts of terrorism. The DHS Domestic Terrorism Lexicon states that the definitions presented in the document are designed to “assist federal, state, and local government officials with the mission to detect, identify, and understand threats of terrorism against the United States by facilitating a common understanding of the terms and definitions that describe terrorist threats to the United States.”
<snip>

dairydog91

(951 posts)
23. Congress IS the government.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:19 AM
Oct 2013

Specifically, it is the portion of the government with the near-exclusive power to decide what is and is not law (SCOTUS interprets, while POTUS may veto or refuse to enforce). Congress cannot intimidate itself, any more than you could punch yourself in the face and then sue yourself for assault.

dairydog91

(951 posts)
26. Congress is NOT breaking any laws.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:26 AM
Oct 2013

The Patriot Act requires that whatever is being counted as terrorist action be illegal, under it or under some other law. A decision by Congress to vote or not to vote on a law is part of its Constitutional role as the legislative power, and is ipso facto legal under the Constitution.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
27. The population is not being intimidated,
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:28 AM
Oct 2013

the population is highly pissed off over this repub. clusterfuck and likely to vote these jackwagons out of office.

G_j

(40,366 posts)
28. jobs, investments, retirement
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:39 AM
Oct 2013

one can make the case that these things are being deliberately threatened by threatening to damage the US/world economy.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
30. Yes, and the way to correct this is to vote these idiots out of office,
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:44 AM
Oct 2013

not use dubious laws like the Patriot Act or unsupportable laws like sedition or treason.
That's a road we don't want to go down as it will surely backfire on us eventually.

G_j

(40,366 posts)
31. I don't advocate applying the law
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:58 AM
Oct 2013

but I think it is appropraite to point out that they are threatening to seriously injur the country and if they were not part the government the wordings of these laws could very well apply to them.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
33. What about the people who claim to have lost jobs and wages to the ACA?
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:05 AM
Oct 2013

Does the mere fact they claim this entitle them to the sort of remedies you describe?

G_j

(40,366 posts)
36. threatening default, is intimidation
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:14 AM
Oct 2013

because it is common knowledge that it will hurt the economy to some extent, it already is hurting. However, as I said, I don't actually advocate attempting to apply these laws to Congress.

I do think it is not hyperbole though to point out that if an "enemy" threatened to damage the US economy, it would be taken seriously.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
40. You've got a good point here,
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:18 AM
Oct 2013

however, I think that threatening to charge the Congress with articles of the Patriot Act is counterproductive and would badly compromise our Constitution.
I commend you for not aligning yourself with those that would use the Patriot Act to go after these jackwagons.

G_j

(40,366 posts)
46. and you make a good point
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:37 AM
Oct 2013

for the PATRIOT Act needs to be rescinded.

I guess, I react mainly to calls for us to tone down the language we use to describe what is going on. This is not business as usual. Even Obama is using words like "extortion" and "held hostage".

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
47. Everyone needs to tone down the rhetoric,
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:43 AM
Oct 2013

it really is starting to get out of control and I fear for the consequences to our nation.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
62. An enemy operates outside the US political process. These are politicians operating in the system
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 01:16 PM
Oct 2013

It's always an option to NOT hurt the US economy by negotiating with the opposition. By definition if you hold out against ending the stalemate for political considerations ("If we cave they'll keep doing this!&quot then you become party to crashing the economy over political reasons. Then there is no sedition/hostage taking/whatever (not that there ever was) just political he-said/she-said to be sorted out during the next election cycle.

In practical terms we're going to have to balance the budget some day. If we keep borrowing and debt service exceeds tax receipts then we will default. Refusing to raise the debt limit doesn't cause a default, we can still service our debt from actual receipts per the 14A, we just find ourselves in a de facto balanced budget situation because we cannot conduct additional deficit spending for the remainder of government functions. THAT would be catastrophic because it pulls too much money too fast from the economy. I say head them off at the pass and demand a return to the Clinton era budgets adjusted for inflation (HINT -- it would also pave the way for a certain candidate to succeed Obama).

G_j

(40,366 posts)
66. surprisingly
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 01:53 PM
Oct 2013

(because you don't hear it mentioned)
It would be very simple to stipulate in each spending bill that the debt ceiling would rise by said amount. The whole showdown could be avoided.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
68. The reason it's a separate vote is to force a public debate about how much debt the nation accepts
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 01:59 PM
Oct 2013

Should congress be allowed to appropriate so much debt that tax receipts could not service that debt, let alone pay it down (i.e. bankruptcy) without first having to hear from the American people?

Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #68)

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
77. Yes, but until it is appropriated it isn't spent.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 02:14 PM
Oct 2013

The debt limit is decided BEFORE the threshold is reached through appropriations.

If you really think war is a racket, imagine a government that could automatically raise its debt ceiling through war appropriations with no public debate about just how much debt is being accrued. All a POTUS would have to do would be to but this and send troops there and suddenly the American public is obligated with no opportunity to tell their elected officials what idiots they are. The powers are divided for a reason. Yes, that leads the gridlock but that isn't a bug, that's a feature.

G_j

(40,366 posts)
80. I don't get it
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 02:50 PM
Oct 2013

Shouldn't the debate take place before a bill is voted on? Isn't that where the debate is supposed to take place?

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
81. Debate for appropriations of debt limit?
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 02:52 PM
Oct 2013

The DL is debated several fiscal cycles prior in the hopes those chuckleheads can get their collective act together.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
29. You are welcome to this fantasy
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 10:39 AM
Oct 2013

But the House of Representatives is part of the government exercising a constitutionally provided power, so fantasy it must remain.

If you turn it around, and think of a House with a Dem majority having enough of its members arrested you would be able to see just how this fantasy would become a nightmare in practice. It HAS been done before, and never with a good outcome.

And here I quote from the Constitution, Section 6:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei#section6

The Senators and Representatives shall receive a compensation for their services, to be ascertained by law, and paid out of the treasury of the United States. They shall in all cases, except treason, felony and breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest during their attendance at the session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any speech or debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other place.


If any power attempted to arrest any of these people, the thumping they would get from the courts would resound throughout the country - an attempt to do so would in fact be an impeachable offense.

By definition treason cannot be an exercise of their powers granted in the Constitution, which each of them, whether pro or con, is now exercising in their votes, deliberation and advocacy.

Maraya1969

(22,474 posts)
50. It says, "except for treason" and I found this on another thread.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 12:49 PM
Oct 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023807280

I have seen it among coworkers, friends, relatives and now among political parties ...

people who complain, throw tantrums etc are treated by everyone around with kid gloves .. no one wants to deal with the aftermath of setting them off ...

what happens in the end? - everyone tip toes around them and give their needs more importance at the expense of normal folks ...

Maybe the Democrats should start throwing temper tantrums too ...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When the Republicans impeached Bill Clinton did they really think they were going to throw Bill Clinton out of office? I don't think so. They just wanted the act of impeachment. I think if some lawyer files treason crimes against certain tea party members it would scare the shit out of them and there bullshit would stop right fast.
 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
52. Or it could backfire badly and turn the teaparty into martyrs.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 12:57 PM
Oct 2013

There would be a real risk using such a serious charge in such a frivolous way.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
55. You are so, so wrong.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 01:01 PM
Oct 2013
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/treason

No, engaging in civil processes can never be treason.

Congressmen voting can never be treason, even if we don't like their votes and even if we believe they are harmful. By constitutional definition and SC decision, no political speech or act by a representative in the normal course of their constitutional duties can be used as a basis of an accusation of crime.

Think about it! A vote by a representative or senator, even if it is against the administration during the course of a war, can never meet the legal definition of treason.

Your claim here makes no sense. Would you like to see a George Bush arresting members of Congress who had refused to vote for his policies in Iraq, or refused to vote for the AUMF? Think about it! What you are advocating is MADNESS.

The doctrine of Congressional Immunity is well-known and has sometimes come up in SC cases:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Congressional+immunity
Speech or Debate Clause

Article I, Section 6, Clause 1, of the U.S. Constitution states in part,

for any Speech or Debate in either House, [senators and representatives] shall not be questioned in any other place.

The purpose of the clause is to prevent the arrest and prosecution of unpopular legislators based on their political views.

The U.S. Supreme Court has gradually defined and redefined the Speech or Debate Clause in several cases over the years. The first case concerning the Speech and Debate Clause was Kilbourn v. Thompson, 103 U.S. (13 Otto) 168, 26 L. Ed. 377 (1880). The Court has interpreted the Speech or Debate Clause to mean that members of Congress and their aides are immune from prosecution for their "legislative acts." This does not mean that members of Congress and their aides may not be prosecuted. Rather, evidence of legislative acts may not be used in a prosecution against a member of Congress or a congressional aide.

The main controversy surrounding the Speech or Debate Clause concerns the scope of the phrase "legislative acts." The phrase obviously encompasses speeches and debates on the floor of the Senate or the House of Representatives. According to the Supreme Court, voting, preparing committee reports, and conducting committee hearings also are legislative acts, but republishing legislative materials for distribution to constituents and accepting a bribe to influence a vote are not.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
86. YOU FAIL !!
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 04:02 PM
Oct 2013

What foreign power are they acting on behalf of? What declared war are we ingaged in?

Perhaps you should read the Constitution.

Abq_Sarah

(2,883 posts)
35. I don't know who got you guys so wound up...
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:12 AM
Oct 2013

But you really need to calm down and ask yourself what you're doing on this site if you support Authoritarianism.

Differences of opinion on any matter and ideological differences ARE NOT TREASONOUS.

Pick up a freaking civics book to see how our government is designed to operate.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
57. And hardly Democratic.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 01:07 PM
Oct 2013

I cannot imagine any thinking person who would like a president to whom they were opposed have the right to arrest the Congressional representatives or senators with whom they did not agree. George Bush might have had us fighting in 30 countries by the end of his second term. Because he believed, oh, yes, he believed.

That's how Rome became an Empire and that's how Hitler got control of government in Germany.

Our Constitution forbids it and well it should. We do get to vote the bozos out for their votes. Sometimes it's more pleasurable than other times.

To repetitively see this nonsense on DU is beginning to bother me, because being a democracy does require letting the country make its own mistakes and then have to deal with them. Also, I think DU serves a huge educational function, and I hate to see that failing.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
45. Me either.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:28 AM
Oct 2013

How can any progressive support using the Patriot Act, an abomination of the 2nd Bush admin., to justify arresting and charging a sitting member of Congress with sedition or treason?
I just don't get it.

 

oldhippie

(3,249 posts)
53. "How can any progressive support using the Patriot Act,...?
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 12:59 PM
Oct 2013

Because it fits our purpose? Is that bad?

Puzzledtraveller

(5,937 posts)
59. We are overrun with people who are just fans, not progressive, not liberal, just fans
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 01:12 PM
Oct 2013

That's why things like this escape them, they have their team, they support the QB, all the time, just fans.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
54. There's no provision in the Constitution for a recall of fed. officials.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 12:59 PM
Oct 2013

The only way is to vote them out of office on Nov. 4, 2014.

libodem

(19,288 posts)
56. Then vote them out
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 01:06 PM
Oct 2013

I'm frustrated. They are doing nothing but obstructing 'The Peoples'' business and promoting the Koch Bros agenda to strip this country into a wage slave, third world, Dictatorship. I think Capitalism has trumped Democracy. We've been sold out and bought off.

 

Ranchemp.

(1,991 posts)
60. I'm right there whit ya brother,
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 01:13 PM
Oct 2013

vote every one of those obstructionists out of office and vote in those that will do the peoples work.

libodem

(19,288 posts)
74. I'm your sister
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 02:08 PM
Oct 2013

But it's all cool. I get less of that since I changed my Avatar, from the Aquateen Hunger Force, characters.

libodem

(19,288 posts)
79. I mix up genders here too
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 02:17 PM
Oct 2013

It is oddly disorienting. You think you have it pegged and dayum, they gotcha. Sometimes even in profiles people choose to leave it out, so you don't know. And sometimes the user name is ambiguous. Like mine, I suppose. You just can't tell. Maybe someday it will no longer matter.

Until then, I still wonder about, Pat.

Samantha

(9,314 posts)
65. I would like to give you a link to my recent thread which asks a lot of questions on this subject
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 01:41 PM
Oct 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023771974
Economic Treason: The definition of "treason" and could Republicans be guilty of this crime? Part 2


and a link to a post which I wrote last night:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3805508
This is not mere politics although it is being made to appear to be

I hope you can use this info.

Regards,

Sam

Response to Maraya1969 (Original post)

Beacool

(30,247 posts)
93. I have despised this sexist, homophobic, old buzzard since the 90s.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 05:00 PM
Oct 2013

He is the one who allowed the Paula Jones civil case to go forward, claiming that it wouldn't take the president any more time to handle that it took him to play a round of golf. Five years and many millions of dollars later, Clinton was almost thrown out of office by assholes like Scalia.

He doesn't like ladies cursing?

Hey Scalia, you old bastard, why don't you go FUCK yourself????

Ahhhhhhh, that felt good.



 

LaydeeBug

(10,291 posts)
100. I've used the term "aid and comfort to the enemy" more than once in this debacle.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 08:23 PM
Oct 2013

because they fucking deserve it.

tritsofme

(17,372 posts)
101. You are just as dangerous as they are.
Tue Oct 8, 2013, 08:28 PM
Oct 2013

This is America, we do not criminalize politics. We do not put our opponents in jail, we beat them at the ballot box. Are you willing to give George Bush or Ted Cruz such power as president?

This authoritarian impulse running through DU the past few days has been very disturbing. As others have pointed out, you have badly misunderstood the meaning of these terms in American law.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»They should be tried for ...