Spanking Child With Wooden Spoon Not Child Abuse, Says State Court

[cali]

Last edited Sat Oct 12, 2013, 01:27 PM - Edit history (1)

A California state court ruled on Tuesday that a woman who spanked her daughter with a wooden spoon did not commit child abuse.

According to court documents, Veronica Gonzalez was labeled a child abuser by the Santa Clara County Department of Social Services after striking her 12-year-old daughter with a wooden spoon with enough force to leave visible bruises. However, the Sixth District Court of Appeal in San Jose overturned the ruling, writing, “we cannot say that the use of a wooden spoon to administer a spanking necessarily exceeds the bounds of reasonable parental discipline.”

Fox News reported the court said the spanking came close to abuse, but the Department of Social Services did not originally consider all of the circumstances, such as whether Gonzalez meant to inflict bruises.

According to court documents, Gonzalez and her husband were “gravely concerned about their daughter’s declining academic performance and alarming social tendencies.” The parents alleged that they found pictures and text messages with references to gang culture on her cell phone, and had “many discussions” about her behavioral changes.

<snip>

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/11/spanking-child-abuse_n_4086265.html

edited to add pnwmom's post in this thread:

The social worker responded properly. The fact that there were significant bruises supports the girl's initial story to the social worker, not the one she later changed to -- no doubt out of fear of and for her parents.

These abusive spankings were carried out by both parents at different times, but the mother is the one alleged to have used a spoon.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/H038241.PDF

stated that her butt is very sore today and her friends asked what was wrong and she talked to them what happen , even though her parents told her to never tell anyone about the spanking. started to cry and said she was scared of causing more trouble for herself.” According to the social worker, Daughter attributed statements to Mother that “she needs to smack her with a spoon so it will hurt more.” Daughter also supposedly reported that when receiving the spanking, “she had to remove her clothes and bend over the bed.”5 Daughter reportedly “stated she is scared of and knows she needs to be good to avoid getting a smack, but sometimes she has a hard time.” The social worker also reported that Daughter “asked if she could stay her paternal grandmother tonight because she was scared to go home,” and that Daughter “ha thought about staying with her paternal grandmother because she seems to get along better with her and things are not so scary.”6

[Niceguy1]

1. good.

Have a wooden spoon used for 30 gallon pots that I keep on the wall as a reminder for troublesome daughters lol

[HERVEPA]

10. Unfunny. It clearly is abuse. And corporal punishment doesn't work of course.

Just helps perpetuate a culture of violence.

[Niceguy1]

11. a simple wooden

Spoon isn't abuse and it or the belt works....I know from experience.

[cali]

15. yes, because your experience is the be all and end all.

Wrong.

[Niceguy1]

19. everybody

Has different methods tonraise their children.


Your experience and veiw point isn't the be all end all, either. .

[cali]

21. no, it's not, but the vast majority of experts in the field

agree with me.

[Niceguy1]

23. doesn't mean they

Are right....

[cali]

24. yes, yes. the parents who hit their children are the ones that know best

just like the climate change denier morons know more than the scientists.

[Niceguy1]

26. I have taken the cd classes

Many of the experts think most parents aren't capable of knowing what is best foe their children..................

There are many diverse stageies to rearing children...

[trumad]

28. Let me get this straight---

you're a dude--- a fucking guy--- and you hit your daughters with a wooden spoon?

Unbelievable. Big tough guy roughing up his little girls.

[LiberalLoner]

36. +1

[Hassin Bin Sober]

49. +1... Makes one wonder.

[Ranchemp.]

68. My wife and I used a wooden spoon on our kids when they fouled up

and every one of them grew up and became productive citizens to society.
There's nothing wrong with corporal punishment as long as it's used judiciously and carefully.

[trumad]

93. wow

You ever think they might have grown up and be just wonderful if you never hit them?

Mine did.

How did it feel to hit a little defenseless kid?

[Ranchemp.]

96. Differences of opinions are what makes this place great.

Your opinion is different than mine, so be it, doesn't make your view any better than mine.

[trumad]

99. my opinion is that you are a fucking coward

For hitting a defensless kid.

Why dont you hit a coworker who did something wrong?

Oh..is it because he or she might beat the shit out of you.

You strike a defenseless kid or an animal you're a coward.

[Ranchemp.]

101. Once again, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it.

[trumad]

104. you're god damn right its my opinion.

Fuckinv hitting a little kid and you're bragging about it.

[Ranchemp.]

107. Ain't this place grand,

we can have differences of opinions, my opinion is that I can do so without the insults and name calling while others can't.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

394. Oh. look at you. So reasonable and calm. Too bad you can't raise a child without hitting them.

Trumad has you pegged.

[stevenleser]

111. I was juror #6

Mail Message
At Sat Oct 12, 2013, 11:14 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

my opinion is that you are a fucking coward
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3835101

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

OTT, calling a member a fucking coward.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Oct 12, 2013, 11:17 AM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: Hitting a child is wrong, no matter the case. This post could have
said the same without the rhetoric attack. I want to be clear this
hide is not about my disagreement with the main point trumad
is making. No one should hit a child.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Kick the fucking child abusing troll's ass Trumad.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I'm with Trumad on this - leave the post.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: There are very limited exceptions to hiding personal attacks in my criteria. Usually personal attacks are a guaranteed hide for me. But if you beat kids or try to justify beating kids, I'm going to tend to not hide personal attacks against you.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[cali]

112. thank you. n/t

[TBF]

113. I was No. 4 -

I am nearly 50 years old now and have always wondered why hitting children and animals is ok - but if you hit another adult it is an assault.

How is that? No one has ever been able to convince me that it makes sense in any way.

I think Trumad showed quite a lot of restraint in his post. I usually refrain from posting in these threads because I feel so strongly about the issue.

[Igel]

365. It's a common double standard.

If I see somebody using drugs and generally ruining their lives, society doesn't really care. In fact, if I do things to restrict their liberty it's probably something I can be sued or arrested over.

If I see a female human sleeping around while not getting treated for STDs, well, that's a pity. Perhaps I should talk to her. Nothing more--she has her own rights. Force her to get medical care? Puh-leese. Blatant intrusion into her own personal affairs.


Unless it's my kid we're talking about, in which case there's the entirely unreasonable accusation of neglect and being an unfit parent if I don't do something, such as restricting their liberty.

I mean, the rank hypocrisy of society, thinking that adults and children aren't exactly the same and that I have different kinds of obligations to my coworkers, the family down the street, and my own minor offspring.

(This says nothing about the OP and whether hitting the girl can be justified. It's just about the merits of a particular argument that it can't be justified.)

[TBF]

373. Something may be common

and even well-regarded in society. That does not mean it's the correct moral choice.

[trumad]

115. snarf

You fuck with children even hardcore prisoners will fuck your shit up.

Usually a jury would crush me...because...well I'm trumad.

Not this one.

[Scootaloo]

370. Trumad, usually I want to set you on fire with my mind-lasers...

But I share Juror #3's sentiments on this one.

[kcr]

147. Jury got it right, especially #3 n/t

[Paulie]

261. Thanks!

[arely staircase]

179. Bad call, steven IMHO

I don't agree with corporal punishment, but the fact is being in favor of it is not that out of the mainstream. It is legal practiced in the elementary school where I teach. I don't agree with it. I have told my principal as much, but I did it without calling her or the school board or the kids' parents (without whom it may not be applied) "fucking cowards." I usually agree with you SL, and I agree with you on the issue of corporal punishment but allowing trumad's (and I like trumad) post to stand was a bad call. IMHO

[MattBaggins]

282. You teach in one backasswards pathetic school district.

[arely staircase]

296. It is permitted in many states

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment

look at the map. it almost mirrors the last couple of presidential elections. it is actually a good district. but I don't agree with their corporal punishment policy or the state law permitting it. back when I was in school the coaches used to paddle us if we received bad conduct grades in our regular classes. it is much less common than when I was a kid. back then they didn't have to get your parents' permission.

[Comrade Grumpy]

189. This is why the jury system is so useless here.

This was a post that was over the top abusive and insulting, but it was not blocked because the jurors agreed with the general point of the poster. Juror #2 had it right, jurors #3, #4, and #6 need a lesson in DU civics.

[Ranchemp.]

198. Doesn't really matter to me what he called me,

in the course of my job, I've been called a lot worse by far tougher people.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

396. Maybe it doesn't matter what you're called. It does matter what you do,

and you abuse children.

[Ranchemp.]

467. Your opinion.

I reject your opinion.

[stevenleser]

205. I respect your opinion. As I said in my jury comments most personal attacks are an auto-hide for me

However, I reserve the right not to do so if someone loses it in response to apologia for child abuse, rape, murder and the like. The way the jury system is set up, it allows me to do that.

We all have our own standards and I guess that is why I have not been in favor of the jury system from the beginning. I prefer moderators in touch with the admins who enforce a consistent standard.

[ScreamingMeemie]

344. Thank you! And to be proud to admit that one has no idea what one is doing on jury service.

Oy.

[JimDandy]

358. Yes, this vote is very problematic.

Posting is how you agree with the author of an alerted post; you don't invalidate a legitimate violation of DU rules and etiquette using the jury system. This was a very poor jury result.

[last1standing]

316. Congratulations on doing your part to make DU a worse place to be.

n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

342. I wouldn't be proud of that. I vote to hide all personal attacks, regardless of what

I think of the posters involved. What you've done, is admit bias...and proved community moderation fails every time. Good job.

(and before you go all crazy, I believe beating one's child with a spoon is abuse)

[stevenleser]

485. I am proud of it. I enforced the standards for the community I am comfortable with and for me

that means all personal attacks are hidden except those that are apologia for or openly advocating beating children, rape or murder.

That's what the jury system is and Skinner has pretty much upheld the idea that each person can enforce their idea of what is community standards.

I am using the system exactly the way it was intended.

Now, I think the jury system is problematic exactly because our standards are different and without a central administration enforcing a standard for moderation, we are going to get wildly divergent jury results. For instance, it's pretty clear to me that some people hide nothing. I think you could try to take out a contract on someone's life in a post and some folks here would not vote to hide it. On the other side, it's also clear that some people vote to hide when they simply disagree with the poster or the poster is in the wrong clique.

But I also would be remiss if I didnt admit that the jury system is working better than I thought that it would. Then again, that isnt exactly high praise since I thought it would fail utterly. I still think the mod system was better and could have been improved.

[ScreamingMeemie]

486. You are a waste of a jury vote and are using the system for your own gain and platfrom.

Please reconsider accepting a jury call in the future. You cannot handle the job and it makes DU suck.

[stevenleser]

487. You realize you just attacked me personally for failing to hide a personal attack, right?

p.s., and no, I will not do anything that you ask.

[ScreamingMeemie]

488. If that's how you feel, alert. I've merely stated the truth, without the nasty language

that trumad (who I happen to like) employed.

Using the jury system to voice your feelings about the topic at hand, instead of addressing personal attacks, rude behavior, and over the top posts, is not a part of Community Standards.

It does not matter what the subject is about. And yes, it is a big part of why DU sucks...and a huge part of why I spend so little time here. No heroic stand was taken by you.

A primer for you:

Today I accepted a call for jury.
The post was by one of my favorite DUers.
It was rude and over the top language used against another DUer.
Even though I agreed with what one of my favorite DUers was saying, I voted to hide.
That's how the jury system works, you see?

That said, adding an addendum that you think we should go back to Moderation merely proves the point that you're doing it wrong. A Mod (I was one) would have deleted that post in a heartbeat.

I trust you will take this to heart the next time you feel compelled to bring your personal feelings to the jury table.

[ronnie624]

493. It's truly sad

that in this day and age, people can believe that physically assaulting children is a healthy method for teaching. Striking children is not only child abuse, it does great harm to human society in general, by teaching succeeding generations that violence is an acceptable method for resolving conflict or persuading others to submit to one's will. Belief in 'corporal punishment', clearly perpetuates a cycle of violence throughout the fabric of human society.

That being said, juror #2, is the only responsible DUer, in that group of jurors.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

393. So true. But such cowards will never admit that.

[MattBaggins]

279. advocating for abuse and assault is not a difference of opinion

it's disgusting

[gopiscrap]

143. My mom did that also, or if she was in the bedroom

then it was the hairbrush and it was always on the bare bottom, I howled and howled, but that was the only thing I would learn from as a child under about 14 or so. As a parent I think I have only spanked my two grown kids lass than ten times total between them. They had totally different personalities than I did and responded to different things. My daughter most of the time all you had to do was be really cross with her and she would dissolve and my son what worked best was being grounded to his room sitting on the bed with absolutely nothing to do.

[Ranchemp.]

146. We never spanked our kids bare bottomed,

and when we did, which wasn't very often, we saved the spankings for really egregious violations, it was a swat or two and then a grounding of a week or two.

We never spanked them in anger either, despite what others might think.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

398. It's still wrong. You took the easy way out rather than figuring out

how to raise your children without violence. Lame.

[Ranchemp.]

468. Your opinion.

I reject your opinion.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

498. Of course you do. Because you can't admit you're wrong. I reject your rejection.

And isn't it interesting that you didn't answer my question about the diesel fuel scenario. But, of course, you're going to ignore it because it proves you're full of it.

[Ranchemp.]

525. LOL.

Too funny.

[cali]

170. your child would "dissolve"? and you think that was a good thing? yikes.

[gopiscrap]

175. my English isn't the greatest, probably could have used a beter word

meaning that she would have been immediately contrite and wanting to change the situation. OMG I still have word choice problems, I am so sorry didn't mean it like that. Also wanted to add that the VERY few times we spanked our kids, it was clothed and open hand...I personally felt that the way I got spanked would be abuse although in Germany at the time it sure wasn't.

[uppityperson]

325. Filling in more information about you. Thank you.

[uppityperson]

330. 2 for. Thought so my dear. I have no clue what you are asking about. Bye.

ETA, rofl. And rofl.

[hrmjustin]

331. Don't quit do you.

[uppityperson]

334. I've a new friend! My old besest buddy finally gave up on me and now I've a new bff

What if we put them together? oooooo

[hrmjustin]

335. LOL might be fun or really scary.

[William769]

336. You think you have a new friend.

You should have seen what they did to me! Oh it's nice to have the (well you know what I mean).

[uppityperson]

337. Was she mean to you? ETA

[cyberswede]

402. You could write a book!

[uppityperson]

551. And...she's back! Nope. I was wrong.

[arcane1]

552. Again??? Let this thread DIE already.

Jeez!

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

397. It was the only thing your parents figured out that you would learn from. There

were other ways, but because society approve of that shit, they didn't try hard enough to find an alternative. Hitting is a lousy way to "teach" a child. Read the science.

[pnwmom]

149. How old were they when you stopped? n/t

[gopiscrap]

151. we spanked our daughter once when she was 13 (she was the wilder one)

and out son last I think when he was 11 Like I said together I think if I remember we spanked them 7 times and each time it was some very very serious

[pnwmom]

155. Children of the age of puberty are much too old.

Spanking a person that age is a form of sexual abuse.

[gopiscrap]

159. she was slow getting to puberty (propably wouldn't have done it if she'd gone through it)

plus it was my wife who spanked her) and also looking back on it, we probably wouldn't do that now. She had a habit of wandering and not checking in. We had been looking for her for 7 hours at this point (past when she was supposed to be home) and she just walks (before we had cell phones) like nothing had happened. We had already called the police and they were getting ready to look for her also. Now on hind sight I would have grounded her til she was 40 (just kidding) but she seriously would haves pent a couple of weeks being grounded, write an apology letter to cops and perhaps do a day or two community service at a runaway shelter.

[RKP5637]

437. Definitely, and I often wonder about all of this bare bottom spanking, something

more is going on than discipline IMO!

[Ranchemp.]

158. After about 9yo we stopped the swats

and started to take away their toys, Nintendo, TV, Walkman, things like that.

[pnwmom]

166. This girl was 12. What she described was a form of sexual abuse.

These abusive spankings were carried out by both parents at different times, but the mother is the one alleged to have used a spoon.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/H038241.PDF

[Daughter] stated that her butt is very sore today and her friends asked what was wrong and she talked to them what happen [sic], even though her parents told her to never tell anyone about the spanking. [Daughter] started to cry and said she was scared of causing more trouble for herself.” According to the social worker, Daughter attributed statements to Mother that “she needs to smack her with a spoon so it will hurt more.” Daughter also supposedly reported that when receiving the spanking, “she had to remove her clothes and bend over the bed.”5 Daughter reportedly “stated she is scared of [Mother and Father] and knows she needs to be good to avoid getting a smack, but sometimes she has a hard time.” The social worker also reported that Daughter “asked if she could stay [with] her paternal grandmother tonight because she was scared to go home,” and that Daughter “ha[d] thought about staying with her paternal grandmother because she seems to get along better with her and things are not so scary.”6

[madrchsod]

310. yes it is sexual abuse

sounds like the mother is working out her trauma on her child

[Stay calm buddy]

354. Has any parent in the history of the US been charged with sexual abuse for spanking?

Last edited Sat Oct 12, 2013, 06:13 PM - Edit history (1)

I'd like to explore the precedent for your opinion that this is sexual abuse.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

399. If not, it's because our sick, violent society has condoned this abuse. It's wrong. It needs to stop

Slavery was once accepted, too, ya know.

[Stay calm buddy]

519. Spanking vs. enslaving a human being

lol. No comments.

[MattBaggins]

278. If you messed up at work and your boss assaulted you

would you press charges?

[LeftyMom]

313. If you did that TO your wife you'd go to prison.

Sick fuck.

[Ranchemp.]

318. Quite the strech there.

How do you know I don't with her permission?
Actually, that's TMI, and no, we aren't like that.
And what makes you think I care what you think of how we raised our children?

Here's a clue, I don't.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

400. If you don't care what others think, why post on a DISCUSSION board?

I think you may have made a wrong turn and ended up here.

[Logical]

421. LOL, so "I abused my kids and they turned out ok, so that means abusing kids is good". Brilliant! nt

[Ranchemp.]

470. No, but you're going to believe what you want to belive.

[Logical]

472. You have made quite an impression here. Congrats! n-t

[Ranchemp.]

475. Thank you.

I try to please.

[MattBaggins]

277. He ought to change his name.

[MattBaggins]

295. I was referring to someone else not you

[Ranchemp.]

298. My apologies and will delete.

[Logical]

473. Wow, original. n-t

[RKP5637]

433. +1, n/t

[pnwmom]

241. Too many parents are NOT capable of knowing what's best for their children

and this pair are prime examples.

What the daughter described to the social worker was ritualized sex abuse disguised as discipline.

[fitman]

67. There is a big difference between hitting

and some use of padling/spanking..

Some kids need their asses whipped..

[cali]

108. some parents need their butts kicked- those that "whip their kids"

[pnwmom]

242. Some parents need to go to jail. n/t

[fitman]

508. look what we have since the no padling movement

kids out of control..

Your way does not work..face it..

[pnwmom]

528. Kids are no more out of control in states without school paddling,

for instance, than they are in states that allow it.

All the studies show that hitting young people, no matter what name you give to it, is linked to long term increases of bad behavior rather than to long term improvement.

[MattBaggins]

284. Some parents need their kids taken away

if they are so inept at child rearing that they have kids that need to be whipped.


Parents are clearly a failure.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

403. Those are the words I've been looking for. Inept parents.

Taking out their failure on the kids they raised so poorly.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

401. No, actually, they don't. Parents need to stop being lazy and violent and learn

how to raise their children without violence.

[fitman]

509. My parents were not lazy or violent

I deserved the paddling I got..

Now we have kids out of control because people don't punish their kids..

Face it..your way does not work..look at the kids in today..

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

513. You don't know your history. This is not some unprecedented time period

for bad kids. But it's a very common right wing misconception.

Oh, and isn't it interesting how you and the other bullies, fitman and decaf, just happen to be awake this time of night and have the practically the exact same talking points.

Sock puppets.

[fitman]

515. It's almost 7 o'clock in the morning where I am

not middle of the night..I'm heading out to the gym..

I'm far from RW trust me..just because you don't agree with me I'm rw..lol

I just think that's some use of paddling and spanking is ok..

Not everyone walk lockstep with every position. I think the death penalty should be abolished..I am across the board with my views.

I'm an agnostic/borderline athiest, believe is some gun ownership, for abortion but against partial birth abortion/late term..like I said across the board.

[Decaffeinated]

520. Sorry... 3:30 in the afternoon here...

What's more likely?

a) Mass conspiracy to get the evil child beating agenda out there...

or...

b) More than one person shares an opinion

Occam's Razor... Use it...

[Logical]

422. LOL, you 90 years old? n-t

[fitman]

510. no, 51

and I deserved the paddling I got..

[Logical]

529. LOL, ok. n-t

[MattBaggins]

275. The vast majority of doctors think drinking bleach is bad for you

doesn't mean they're right.

[Logical]

420. So I bet you feel pretty tough when using that belt. Sort of enjoy it. n-t

[MattBaggins]

273. Striking another individual, particularly with an object is assault

assault and should be punished accordingly.

[fitman]

66. A belt was used on me on occasion

and I turned out great..never did drugs, was never arrested for any crime..I think some paddling is ok..

[pnwmom]

240. Is half-naked paddling of a 12 year old okay? n/t

[fitman]

511. I was never paddled half naked

and I deserved every paddling I got.

[pnwmom]

527. Your parents had other methods available for disciplining you

and you would have deserved them, too. This was their choice, but that doesn't make it the best choice.

[RedCappedBandit]

384. "I turned out great.."

says the guy who thinks "some kids need their asses whipped"

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

404. That's what you think. But then you were abused as a child, so maybe

you aren't the best judge. Read the science. Your parents should have found another way.

[Logical]

423. LOL, so if you were sexually assaulted and turned out OK then you would think that was OK also? n-t

[whathehell]

63. I can't wait til your kids are old enough to call child protective services and have you arrested.

[bunnies]

80. You use a fucking belt on your children?

Thats some really twisted shit "niceguy". Geezus. Those poor girls.

[bunnies]

82. delete. wrong place. nt

[cali]

86. sick stuff.

[bunnies]

88. People bragging about beating their children.

On fucking DU of all places. First damn thread I clicked on today. My God.

[gtar100]

120. And so glad it's not going unanswered.

They don't know any better until their beliefs are challenged. My mother used a wooden spoon on me probably with the best of intentions. And you might say I turned out okay. But the truth is I still harbor a resentment for going through such physical pain that I could never associate with whatever it was she was trying to "teach" me. I learned to fear her because of it at that young age. And when I got big enough (probably 8 or 9) I grabbed it out of her hands and threw it in the garbage.

No, corporal punishment is never a good answer. And just because parents don't know what else to do does not make it okay. Not under any circumstances.

[bunnies]

132. My mother was the same way.

Only worse. I remember one time, I was probably 10 or so, I left a curling iron on in my bedroom. She kicked me so hard as I was going upstairs to turn it off, that I lost my innocence, if you know what I mean. But hey, there were no bruises so I guess that kind of thing would be just fine by many here.

I was out of that house at 16 and never looked back. Now I maybe talk to her once a year. If that. The only lesson I learned, was that my mother enjoyed inflicting pain on me. Physical or otherwise. And like you, its something Ill never forget.

Its lazy, unintelligent parenting that does nothing to help the child whatsoever. Im sorry for what you went through.

[gopiscrap]

145. I am so sorry you had to endure that

I can imagine having to deal with that all through growing up. MY own limited experience was that my dad died because of the Vietnam War and when I was 15 my mom had a stroke. Being from Germany there were no relatives to care for me when she died. MY first foster home was with an older single German lady who was very abusive. Luckily I complained and complained and was only with her for 5 months. MY next family was the family of a Lutheran minister and his wife and that was permanent. Hope you are ok now!!! Peace Mike C

[bunnies]

164. It must have been horrible to lose your Dad at that age.

And no family to turn to. Foster homes can really be hell for kids. I ended up in one after I ran away. They used to make me get up at 4am to work in their breakfast restaurant before I went to school. I dont really speak of the other things the "father" used to make me do. Sick bastard. Im sure he's in the dirt by now. Good riddance.

Im glad you got out of the abusive one and ended up in a good home. It amazes me how cruel some people can be to kids.

Yeah. Im ok now. Thanks Mike.

[gopiscrap]

167. Wow that's horrible

yes it was tough, I had limited English skills and was stuck in the US with out family (only child) but that second foster home was great. I wound up getting my citizenship and also going to college. Wound up being a social worker for the State for 9 years and saw some truly horrible things done to kids. So are you ok now? Stuff like that takes time to process. I had a yiung 9 year old client whose foster dad got her pregnant. Pillar of the community and it turned out he had done this to two others, but nobody believed those two girls.

[bunnies]

183. You wound up being a social worker?

Thats really, really, amazing. I dont think I could handle the job you had, personally. I have the utmost respect for people who are capable of being Social Workers. So rewarding and heartbreaking at the same time, Id bet.

There was another girl about my age at the house at the same time. She was his victim before I came along. We tried to tell the Social Worker but she didnt believe us. God knows how many other girls that asshole prayed on. His wife ended up kicking both of us out for "coming on" to her husband. Yeah because all 16 year olds have the hots for 60 year old men.

I dont think of it much now, but I was pretty fucked up for several years. I ended up in a group home then spent years in a really bad (abusive) relationship. That jackass, Rich, stole every ounce of self-worth I had. And to think, it all started with me running away from my Mothers abuse.

Thanks for this conversation, Mike. Its been therapeutic for me. Im feeling especially light right now.

edit: that bastard and his wife are still both alive. Ugh.

[gopiscrap]

187. Glad you feel light....yeah I was a social worker for 8 years and then burned

out both because of the low pay (partly my fault, I was very adhd when I was younger and couldn't sit still though a masters program, I only have a BA) plus our case loads were getting bigger and bigger. One day I was in rural Pierce County at some crackers house and he shoved a rifle in chest. At that point I said fuck it and wound up working for the Secretary of State's office elections division. Much easier. I went through hell at that first foster home but nothing like you did. This was in the early 70's when the presupposition was that adults were better capable of being truthful than the kids.

[bunnies]

197. omg!

I can see how that would be the final straw for you, no question. That not the kind of job where one should have to deal with threats of gun violence. Thats just straight up crazy.

Hopefully todays Social Workers are listening to kids. As of the late 80's (when I was in the system) they sure as hell werent.

[gopiscrap]

204. They are a lot more sensitive here in WA state because they have

had the shit sued out of them. What state did this happen to you in?

[bunnies]

217. NH. nt

[gopiscrap]

208. BTW I was on the NH seacoast a couple years ago

I had to go from Boston to Portland because I taught a church music workshop in Boston and then was invited to sing at a Lutheran Church in Maine, it was beautiful!!! Also spent the night in Claremont NH and sang in Brattleboro VT I love New England.

[bunnies]

216. I live about smack in between Boston and Portland. :)

About an hour away from both. Amazing how totally different they are, isnt it? Yep. Many beautiful places in New England to be sure. Im glad you enjoyed it. Most people here seem to think we're just a bunch of hicks.

[gopiscrap]

220. No, I found everyone to be warm and friendly

and some very informed folks. Although I was there to sing and teach, I also wound up talking politics with some. I love how New England is turning so blue! I was there on a night in Claremont NEw Hampshire and it snowed and snowed and for a guy who comes from a state where it snows maybe 3 inches every 5 years it was just magical!!!

[bunnies]

228. lol. You can HAVE the snow.

Seriously. All of it. I would happily exchange winter weather with you in a heartbeat. I think snow lost its magic for me the first time I had to drive in it. Its October and Im already dreading its arrival.

[gopiscrap]

230. OMG even two inches oif snow in a night is a huge thing here in Tacoma WA

if we have more than 4 to 6 inches at a time schools are closed for a week, business shut down, govt workers are told to stay home. My wife is a teacher and is worst than the kids...if there is even a chance of snow, she is up at 5 listening to the tv waiting for her District to cancel class. One time and only one time we had 21 inches in one night and everything was closed for about 8 days. It was great!!!! It really is like a festive party at the park 4 blocks from where we live, the whole neighborhood is out there laughing and playing. Part of the problem is that Tacoma is totally made up of hills and we don't have the snow removal budget because of it's rarity. My wife once worked for a Catholic school on a steep hill and they got a new principal from Montana where it snowed a 100" a year. He rufed to close school for the 1 we had and a car slid into the house at the bottom of the hill. He never heard the end of it and from that point on just the mention of snow would close the school. I laughed my ass off.

On the flip side if it gets to 95 here, we have a heat alert and businesses with air conditioning start sending their kids home. It usually rains for ever her. One year we had 103 days of straight rain. One the first sunney day it was only like 65 and everyday was out in shorts etc.

[bunnies]

234. lmao!

It sounds a lot like North Carolina. I lived there for a while and never laughed so hard at the way people reacted to the weather. They got 2" of snow one time and people were driving around with chains on their tires. Cars were all off the roads and EVERYTHING was closed. I'd never seen such a thing in my life.

Up here, it pretty much takes a Nor Easter and power outages for things to shut down. It took me 5 hours to get home from Boston one night because there was a foot of snow on the highway. Of course it didnt stop some people from doing 65 mph. Theres always those people who dont let the snow slow them down at all. You'll usually see them a couple miles up the road in a snowbank though. What the hell do they expect?

No one shuts down for heat either. I guess we're all just pretty used to the extremes. As the saying goes up here... Dont like the weather? Wait 5 minutes. It'll change.

Not sure I could deal with 3 solid months of rain though. There would have to be lots of thunder. I just love thunder storms.

[gopiscrap]

237. I love thunderstorms also

it was out of the Seattle metro area the psychological diagnosis of S.A.D. was established (Seasonal Affected Disorder) I tried to use that as an excjuse not to go to work because it was raining, but alas it didn't work.

[pitbullgirl1965]

469. Bhahaaaaa!!!

It takes many feet of snow before anything closes down in Northern New York State. One is we're used to it, two is NYS DOT rapid plowing of the roads,** AND regular road and bridge maintenance (which is done in a very timely manner) that our tax dollars pay for and it's worth every penny. Mad props to the NYS DOT.

**They will stand by on Interstate 81 before a big storm is due. A long stretch of 81 up here gets Lake Effect snow. I'd rather shell out a few hundred bucks a year in gas taxes to have safe driving conditions.

[gopiscrap]

483. I was in Buffalo during the blizzard of '77

We just don't have enough snow here to justify a decent removal budget

[pitbullgirl1965]

535. D: That was bad!

Yikes.

[gopiscrap]

536. I loved it I was on a national singing tour with four others we were all 19-23

at the time. The state troopers made us pull off from the turnpike and we shetered at a Rodeway Inn. There were no more rooms so we made due with our sleeping bags and they got us pillows. What we did for the 48 hours were there was sing for the folks and due skits (we were a Lutheran singing group) and the folks fed us and bought us drinks and gave us tips. It was a riot!! I will always have warm memories of the cold of Buffalo!

[pitbullgirl1965]

537. That does sound fun!

A win win for everyone. The NYS troopers are fine LEO too

[OwnedByCats]

542. It looks like I'm not the only one

here who has to deal with upstate NY winters! I'm about 25 miles north of Syracuse (right near 81 in fact) and we get a ton of lake effect snow from Lake Ontario. You're so right, we don't stop just because we got a few feet of snow! The plows are pretty good up here.

[Ranchemp.]

174. So called "fathers" who do "special" things to their children,

if that's what you are saying, deserve a special place in hell.
So sorry for what you had to endure at the hands of this "man".

Hugs for you.

[bunnies]

188. Thanks.

I just googled and found out that the bastard is still alive. I guess he was younger than he looked. I was hoping he was rotting by now.

[Ranchemp.]

193. Unfortunately, the statues of limitation have probably expired,

otherwise I would urge you to press charges and bring this monster to justice, gotta wonder how many other he's done this to.

[bunnies]

209. I definitely regret not sicking the cops on him.

But even the Social Worker wouldnt believe us. Us being me and the other girl who was there at the same time. He made victims of us both. And probably every other teenage girl placed in his "care". He better hope to Christ I never run into him again. Thats for damn sure.

[Ranchemp.]

214. If you ever do run into him again, hope you don't, but if you do,

a swift kick in the family jewels would be, in my opinion, fully justified.

[bunnies]

219. A swift kick or two.

Or three.

[gtar100]

182. Thanks you for the hug!

for you too!

[cali]

201. I had similar experiences.

I just can't talk about. I'm so sorry, bunnies.

[bunnies]

221. Seems you and I have much in common.

Im sorry for you as well. I wish we didn't know how it feels.

[pnwmom]

390. And the real stupidity is that many of those parents expect

those kids to grow up to love them. Hah! Just wait till they're in need of care some day.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

414. But, you know, many of the kids will. The parents screwed up badly, but

we forgive many awful things people do to us. It's a shame that people will then use that to justify the awful things they did. "We get along just fine now. She turned out just fine. I was right to hit her." Sad.

[pnwmom]

425. Some of them will. And some of them will go on to abuse their own kids

just like their parents have taught them.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

430. Most will go on to abuse their own kids. See my other posts

in this thread. You and Laundry Queen are my heroes in on this topic.

[pnwmom]

432. Thanks, Dark n Stormy.

I'm kind of in shock that Cali's post drew the response it did.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

440. I'm not surprised. A few of the loudest defenders of hitting kids on this thread

are low post count newbies who I suspect just might not be Democrats. For instance, here is an earlier post by one of them.

A similar story earlier of a father destroying his daughter's laptop (by gun, iirc) drew loads of defense for the parent. No, it wan't hitting, but I think these parents who need to so loudly declare to the pubic what great parents they are by humiliating their kids in public aren't much better than the hitters. Maybe worse.

Parents need to find good alternatives to hitting their children. Public humiliation by a bragging parent does not seem to me to be one.

But there have been threads before here (I've been reading DU since long before I signed up), and there are always plenty of long-time DUers defending crappy parenting.

[bunnies]

450. Yep.

I talk to her maybe once every year or so. Its probably been two years at this point. She calls me on my birthday and I dont care. She still doesnt listen to a damn thing I say. Ive washed my hands.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

405. Thank you for sharing that. Some children cope with the trauma by

rationalizing it. They go on to hit their own children.

[kcr]

463. Yep and some are whining about the jury results but I sure don't care

Admin decided to leave it up to us, and they decided to come on a message board and talk about abusing their kids. It's a lot to expect people not to call them on it. I'm not going to get my undies in a bunch about it, that's for sure. I applaud it in this case, in fact. There are times when it's right to call people on their actions.

[Skeeter Barnes]

369. I've noticed he likes to post provocative stuff like that to get people riled up.

He takes a dump in a thread and sits back to laugh at all the replies. "Niceguy"

[Niceguy1]

434. not only do I use a belt

I use one with the decorative metal studs on it. The added effect is awesome.



Just kidding.

My kids are good and only have needed it once
Or twice . I do not abuse my children, unless you consider turning off internet abuse lol

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

502. Your attempts at humor are as lame as your parenting skills. You

seriously think it's funny to talk about hitting a child with a studded belt? Seriously. Please, try Free Republic or some other place where they go in for that kind of crap.

You think you turned out OK despite being raised by people who didn't know any other way to raise kids but with violence, but you're wrong.

[gopiscrap]

142. welcome to DU

[pnwmom]

148. She's twelve years old. No excuse for this lazy, out of control mother.n/t

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

391. It's abuse. Read the science and see how you've deluded yourself.

[RKP5637]

445. ... they fit the profile of an abusive parent, and then brag about it! n/t

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

448. Pathetic. Funny, so many of them with such low post counts, too.

Accidentally wandered in here, I guess.

[elehhhhna]

361. "visible bruises" WTF we can't agree on that as fulfilling the abuse criteria?

fuckin du lately geez, right?

[Brickbat]

51. Does your boss hit you with a wooden spoon?

[former9thward]

71. So a parent child relationship is equal to a manager employee relationship?

Not in my world. It makes we wonder what goes on at your workplace if you even have one.

[laundry_queen]

178. It's worse

because a child relies on their parent to survive and must trust them, but when they are hit, that trust dissolves and issues result. A child must either trust the parent at all cost, with absolute obedience or they learn to trust no one and go through life with a chip on their shoulder. This is what my child's expert psychologist told us (when I told her about my childhood and how to overcome the damage in order to parent my children properly). Every study shows spanking to be more damaging than not spanking. In fact, some studies show that spoiling your children rotten is preferable to spanking in terms of outcomes.

[Brickbat]

229. Why shouldn't adults hit each other to show their disapproval or for performance issues?

Also, "...if you even have one" was unnecessary, don't you think? "Watch that mouth or I'll slap it right off you" comes to mind, but I might get alerted on for threatening.

[former9thward]

291. You wouldn't get an alert from me because I don't alert anyone.

Have you ever been around a mother dog around puppies? The mother is very unsympathetic to the puppies when they do something wrong but we don't call it animal abuse. As far as my comment, a lot of people are retired or for some other reason do not work, but yes it was snarky.

[leeroysphitz]

77. Yes but it's purely concentual. n/t

[Android3.14]

57. You can tell the parents who use corporal punishment correctly

Their kids behave.
With my kids, we had two rules. My wife or I would hit a kid (smack on the bottom) if the kid left the time-out chair before their time was up, and we would only smack the kid once. Our philosophy is that the first smack is for the child, and everything after that is for the parent.
We never had to smack a kid once they were past six-years-old.
Parents unwilling to use physical force and pain to redirect their children's behavior have unruly, rude, and disrespectful older children as a matter of course. From the intentional avoidance of allowing their eyes to see other people at the grocery store or restaurant, it is obvious that these types of parents also become defensive when their kids act like shitheads in public, rather than dealing with the misbehavior.
It's not about punishment. It's about the child's behavior.
Good call, court.

[Niceguy1]

61. only haD to only use it one on one child and twice on the other.

Once theybare in the internet taking that away by the weekor month works wonders

[cali]

64. baloney. codswallop. NEVER hit my kid

he was well behaved in public by the time he three.

sick shit hitting children. your post disgusts me. I pity children with parents like you who believe it's fine and dandy to hit their children.

[enlightenment]

72. I swatted my kid once on the diaper

and felt so guilty I never did it again; we had a single go-round when he was a teen and pushed me past my limit - again, I was devastated at my loss of control (that was a slap, not a swat). I don't believe in violence and I still feel that those two episodes were the worst moments of my parenting.

Time-out didn't work because he was perfectly happy to sit there, pretending his fingers (or toes, after I told him to keep his hands still) were people and creating an imaginary world.

After trying a number of other child-psychologist approved (and grandma-suggested) methods, I finally switched to the dreaded, "sit for an hour while we discuss what you did; why I am upset that you did it; what the potential consequences of you action could have been; why the behavior is not acceptable; what you will need to do to make up for your ill-advised action/behavior . . . and on and on and on . . .". Always calmly, always with the reaffirmation of my love for him - though if I were angry enough, I might say "I love you always, but I don't like you much right now".

Basically, I bored him into behaving.

Recently he told me that he will do the same for his kid (if he has one - he's 33), because he loved those talks. Quality time, I guess, before the term became over-used.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

407. It takes a brave parent to admit they were wrong rather than justify their

mistakes. Good for you!

[fletchthedubs]

75. She's associating with gang members

Maybe you missed that part. I'm thinking a wooden spoon to the ass is better than a stray bullet meant for a friend. Not to mention what she will endure when she eventually decides to join up.

[bunnies]

95. Yeah. Because beating a child is a GREAT way to get them to act how you want.

Children who get beat NEVER run away and turn to gangs.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

408. Exactly. But, these people will continue to justify their poor parenting to

themselves.

[VanillaRhapsody]

121. Perhaps the beatings are why the other family (the gang) looks appealing?

[gollygee]

339. The wooden spoon doesn't keep the gang activity from happening

In fact sometimes kids look for acceptance in a gang because they don't find it at home.

[RedCappedBandit]

385. Clearly the solution to gangs is violence

the fuck?

[Android3.14]

253. I will give your opinion the thought it deserves

Moving on...

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

409. Well, since you are a parent who isn't smart enough to figure out how

to raise children without hitting them, I'm guessing you don't give a lot of thought to anything you don't already believe. Way to grow!

[pnwmom]

153. My kids were wonderful kids and are wonderful adults and I never hit them.

Your methods are for the lazy parents, who need to use physical force and pain because it's faster than other forms of discipline (which also require self-discipline on the part of the parents, rather than lashing out).

[laundry_queen]

190. That's basically it. Lazy ass parenting.

People who couldn't give 2 shits about learning a better way (because it would involve things like maybe admitting their parents weren't perfect, or that they need to learn to control their temper. You know. like an adult.)

My kids are wonderful too and have never ever been hit. Of course my oldest is only 16, but she is seriously a dream teen. No drinking, no drugs, always helpful, respectful, fun to be around (except for a few days a month, lol) very ambitious. My other kids are great too. And it's not just me saying that. I get compliments from everyone. Seriously, everyone who knows me loves my kids. They stop to tell me how much they love my kids. Teachers, coaches, bosses, family, friends...

There are a million and one other ways to deal with bad behavior. Spanking is the laziest way. Works in the moment - scars forever. My parents spanking me messed me up, so for everyone who says, "I was spanked and I'm fine" I say, "I was and I'm not". Besides, define 'fine'. Usually people who think they are 'fine' aren't.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

415. Awesome post. Absolutely everything the bragging hitters here refuse to see.

They would have to admit they were wrong, and the kind of people who hit their kids are often the kind of people who can't admit they are wrong.

[RKP5637]

449. Excellent post! n/t

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

412. Very well put! We won't change the minds of these parents who

have justified hitting their children to themselves, but can't let their bragging here go without commenting, repeatedly.

[MattBaggins]

290. I'm calling bullshit

unwilling to use physical force and pain to redirect their children's behavior have unruly, rude, and disrespectful older children as a matter of course

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Show me the most unruly child in a classroom and you will be 9 times out of 10, pointing at the child who is hit and abused.

You could not be more wrong.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

406. No. There are other ways and parents need to learn about them and use them.

The science is clear. It's bad to hit your kids. Even the first "smack."

[MattBaggins]

271. if someone were to physically assault you with this spoon

would you have them arrested?

[uponit7771]

2. wow... really CPS?! They have resources to go after cases like this vs OVERT real abuse?!

[cali]

3. this IS child abuse. period. hitting anyone but your own child with an object

would be considered assault in every jurisdiction in this country. Furthermore, the kid was struck hard enough to leave bruises.

[uponit7771]

4. Article reads it was her daughter and "left visible bruises" is VERY VERY subjective. I'd err on the

...side of giving some type of more constructive corrective action but in the light of not being able to police every parent some,even if its more harsh than I want, is better than none at all or not re-teaching the parents with conclusive results.... meaning, staying in the house and coaching for more than an hour or two... more like a week or two.

CPS is this state, no doubt, doesn't have the resources to go after parents for disciplining their child this way and visible bruises is an overt BS subjective term.

[cali]

6. huh? what the heck do you mean that is was "VERY VERY subjective"?

Those were LEGAL FINDINGS. Do you understand that that removes it from your ludicrous claim? Well, obviously not.

Hitting children is sick, sick, sick. And people who subscribe to it, well, I won't say what I think of you folks.

[laundry_queen]

191. Cali, I'm just going to follow you around in this thread

and totally agree with EVERYTHING you say.

this thread makes me ill.

[cali]

285. it's completely pukeworthy to see this much callousness and ignorance

and "ma and pa slapped me around so i'll do it too" dog shit.

[RKP5637]

464. I'm stunned by the responses to your posting. What a bunch of jerks are climbing out

of the woodwork justifying violence against their kids. No wonder the US is so violent.

[cali]

499. pretty discouraging to see so much of it on DU

[pnwmom]

243. The court documents said more.

The statement given to the social worker described sexual abuse masquerading as discipline.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/H038241.PDF

stated that her butt is very sore today and her friends asked what was wrong and she talked to them what happen , even though her parents told her to never tell anyone about the spanking. started to cry and said she was scared of causing more trouble for herself.” According to the social worker, Daughter attributed statements to Mother that “she needs to smack her with a spoon so it will hurt more.” Daughter also supposedly reported that when receiving the spanking, “she had to remove her clothes and bend over the bed.”5 Daughter reportedly “stated she is scared of and knows she needs to be good to avoid getting a smack, but sometimes she has a hard time.” The social worker also reported that Daughter “asked if she could stay her paternal grandmother tonight because she was scared to go home,” and that Daughter “ha thought about staying with her paternal grandmother because she seems to get along better with her and things are not so scary.”6

[Ranchemp.]

248. True, but respectfully,

that doesn't change the fact that the court ruled that child services was wrong.
I don't condone what these parents did to this girl, if it were me, I would've done it differently, but I've been called all kinds of nasty names because I said that I used to swat my kids when they would really foul up and then it was only one or two swats with a wooden spoon on a clothed bottom, that's not child abuse.

And I make no apologies for how we raised and disciplined our children.

[pnwmom]

249. Courts have been wrong before and they'll be wrong again.

But no one here should be justifying what the parents did.

[Ranchemp.]

251. Oh believe me, I'm not justifying what these parents did,

but I'm not a child abuser or a fucking coward for swatting my kids when they fouled up.

[MattBaggins]

293. In NY if you use an object

IT IS ABUSE

[Ranchemp.]

303. I don't live in NY, and I certainly don't condone what happened to this girl,

that is a clear case of abuse, but swatting my kids with a wooden spoon on clothed bottoms once or twice on the rare occasion when they were growing up is not abuse whether or not you believe it.

[MattBaggins]

305. It is abuse. The State of NY recognizes it as such.

[Ranchemp.]

312. As I said, I don't live in NY

and the state I live in doesn't classify how we disciplined our children as abuse.
They do classify what happened to that girl as abuse, but not a swat or two.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

416. OK, suppose we pretend it isn't abuse. It's still wrong. As LaundryQueen said:

There are a million and one other ways to deal with bad behavior. Spanking is the laziest way. Works in the moment - scars forever. My parents spanking me messed me up, so for everyone who says, "I was spanked and I'm fine" I say, "I was and I'm not". Besides, define 'fine'. Usually people who think they are 'fine' aren't.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

413. Respectfully...

see this response:http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3835563

[MattBaggins]

292. In NY if you strike a child and CPS finds out, you will go to court

any object. bruises or not.

[BlueJazz]

5. I agree. It doesn't seem like much at first glance but leaving bruises with any object is over the..

..line.

Beatings and such should be reserved for politicians.

[moriah]

8. My mom spanked me with a peachtree switch.

It was traditional in my family, though until that point (I was 10) my grandmother was the one who administered the switchings. I'd never been harmed by it, it was more psychological punishment than anything else. I hated it, but it was the humiliation and the fact I was in trouble, not the physical punishment. Mom, however, didn't know what Granny had learned from very lightly touching that switch to me when I was a very small child -- I am a redhead, with a condition called dermatographia. When my skin is scratched, I welt up in an allergic reaction. (It's much better now, especially when I take my Zyrtec.) Switches are very scratchy.

We'd moved out of my grandparents house, and I was being a real mouthy brat. I was being bullied at school, and the teachers weren't doing anything about it, so I refused to go to school that day. Just flat refused. Mom got the switch and proceeded to spank me, bareskinned. Not hard. It didn't hurt at all at first. But she was mad, so she wasn't paying attention to my skin. Then she stopped for breath, looked down, and saw her handiwork.

I'd welted up from the switch strikes, and because the welts were far more sensitive than regular skin, the skin was broken over several of the welts and there was a little blood.

Needless to say, I didn't go to school that day.

------

Should she have been accused of child abuse for using a very flexible object on me, and accidentally harming me more than she meant to? I can say, as bad as it looked, she really didn't hit me that hard. The welts were allergic wheals, not raised bruised and torn flesh because it was hit too hard.

And she realized spanking me backfired, because I got my way that day. Hah!

[cali]

14. Was it child abuse, you ask? Yes, in my book it is.

hitting a child is sick shit.

[trumad]

41. "accidentally harming me"

LOL---

[moriah]

43. Seriously, what she did shows the real problem with spanking to me.

Parents do it when they're angry. That's when they're likely to take what was intended to be mild force and hit harder than they meant to. Or not pay as close of attention to their kid's reaction, taking the punishment further than they intended.

I don't see myself spanking my kids if and when I have them, but I know that if I *ever* do spank, it will be only after they've had several hours of time out -- both for them to make them squirm in anticipation, and for me so I can make sure I'm not taking out my anger on them. And probably by the time any time-out would have expired, I would have come up with a far more creative punishment than spanking.

[trumad]

44. I chuckled because if she's hitting you

it ain't an accident

[Brickbat]

54. So what you are saying...

I don't see myself spanking my kids if and when I have them, but I know that if I *ever* do spank, it will be only after they've had several hours of time out -- both for them to make them squirm in anticipation, and for me so I can make sure I'm not taking out my anger on them.

...is that you will make them sit and think for a long time about how you're going to hit them, and that you will let yourself cool down so when you do hit them, it's in a cold, calculating manner for their own good?

I did read on and you do say that you'll probably come up with something more "creative" than spanking, but I just wanted to be sure that your description of what you might do is clear to me.

[moriah]

59. If the only punishment matching what they *did* was to spank....

... and the other parent agreed it was the right punishment, yes, I probably would. And if I did, I *would* do my absolute best to make it a cold, calculated decision and not one reached out of anger and frustration -- things that make spanking both more likely and more severe when it happens.

The only time I could see spanking as a punishment that actually matched the infraction would be if my child beat up another child. (And if I hadn't spanked up until that point and they started beating up on other kids, you couldn't say it was spanking that caused them to feel they had the right to hit another person.)

[Brickbat]

225. So you'd hit someone after calm, rational thought to show her that hitting is wrong.

Got it.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

417. Oh, I see, so you hit them because hitting is wrong. Genius.

I'm going to quote LaundryQueen again.

There are a million and one other ways to deal with bad behavior. Spanking is the laziest way. Works in the moment - scars forever. My parents spanking me messed me up, so for everyone who says, "I was spanked and I'm fine" I say, "I was and I'm not". Besides, define 'fine'. Usually people who think they are 'fine' aren't.
"

[moriah]

471. I get your point, but it'd be more to teach them *why* it's wrong.

Namely, that being hit hurts. If they don't like how it feels, they shouldn't do it to others. And if your kids don't learn that lesson one way or another while they're in your household, they will learn it when they get out into the real world, with far worse consequences than a red behind for an hour. I know I'd try another measure first, but I'm pretty damn sure I'd end up spanking on a second incident (though the guy I'm seeing is also not keen on spanking either, so between the two of us I would hope we could come up with a unique and effective enough punishment on the first offense).

And no, I'm not saying this for the silly recurrent fights that happen between siblings -- if you spanked for that, you'd be spanking every day. I'm speaking particularly to reports from the school that a child started a physical altercation at school, especially if they did any kind of damage that required medical attention.

Aka, Serious Business. Not the BS things that so many parents spank for out of frustration and anger -- see this article. http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/28/would-you-record-yourself-spanking-your-kids/

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

497. Everyone who hits thinks they have a good excuse for using hitting to teach a child

something. It's no better if you think you're teaching them "how it feels." They know it doesn't feel good, which is why they use it.

They use it to "teach" the person they're hitting a lesson, too. That lesson? I have the right to hit you if I don't like what you do.

What you really need to teach the child is that hitting is not a way to solve a problem or teach a lesson. By hitting, you lose all credibility in the matter.

Prove to the child that there are better ways to deal with behavior you don't like in others. When you hit you are saying, "I can't think of any better way, but I expect you to."

[pnwmom]

260. I think a parent would almost have to be a sadist

to cold-bloodedly hit a child.

Striking out in anger I can understand -- that's immature and harmful, but it's more understandable.

[Jamastiene]

70. Did your mom know or did she not know about your skin condition?

She would not have "accidentally harm(ed) you" if she had not been hitting you in the first place. If she knew about your skin condition and still switched you, that's even worse. I'm sure in her eyes she did not mean to harm you, but people who believe in spanking/switching usually grew up with it when they were kids and pass it on down to their kids, thinking it is the right thing to do.

A better idea would have been to ask you why you did not want to go to school and when she found out the answer, that you were being bullied, she could have talked to the school admins about stopping the bullying. If they still would not stop the bullying, then she could have gone to a local news channel. They love to highlight that sort of thing and it usually gets some results when all else fails.

I'm sorry about your skin condition. I get welts when I get overheated, which seems to be almost all the time nowadays, because we don't have any decent fall or winter where I live. It's always too hot, it seems. I also blister very badly when in direct sunlight. I'm not a redhead, but I had really dark black hair in my younger years with red highlights, naturally. Now, I'm mostly gray headed, but I still blister and welt if I get in direct sunlight or am outside on even slightly warm days.

[moriah]

130. She had never spanked me before. Even with her bare hand.

She knew one mosquito bite could turn into body-wide hives from me scratching, but didn't associate the two.

[pnwmom]

347. But the hives would have jumped out with one swat!

So how could she keep going with the evidence right before her eyes?

She blew it.

[moriah]

351. They take a minute to develop (about exactly that, actually) but ....

.... you're right, as I said, she wasn't paying attention to what she was doing. She was angry and frustrated. It was when she finally *did* look at what she'd been doing that she felt incredibly guilty and stopped.

No parent is perfect. She made a mistake. And learned not to do it again, without having to be taken to court or even have a CPS complaint investigated.

[pnwmom]

352. A minute? I could "draw" hives on my skin with my nail

and they would pop up instantly.

[moriah]

357. Ahh, your skin shows dermatographia too?

The timing of "mosquito bite" to "Uh-oh, we probably need to dig up the Epi-Pen" was about 30 minutes to an hour for me as a kid, and now I can take a Benadryl and halt the reaction in its tracks.

There's an initial red stage of simple skin irritation, then itching, then the raised wheal, in my case -- it's not instantaneous, which I'm grateful for. Of course, it also means I've usually done a bit more scratching than others might have when they *do* start to come up and I realize I need to quit.... tradeoffs!

[pnwmom]

360. I did until about ten years ago. The first time it happened

I had been scratching my arms and was horrified to see these long streaks of raised welts on them. Then I realized it happened every time I scratched. Then I realized I could draw any pattern I wanted on my skin -- it always happened.

Meanwhile, I was having other symptoms. Fibromyalgia, restless legs, irritable bowel syndrome, other GI symptoms -- and then things got worse and they were testing me for cancer. Turned out the GI symptoms were caused by a gluten sensitivity. So I had to stop eating gluten -- and then my hives and most of the other miscellaneous symptoms got better, too.

With your red hair, you probably come from an ethnic background with a higher risk of Celiac disease, and there are blood tests that can check for that. Unfortunately, not all forms of gluten sensitivity can be identified with a blood test, so a negative result on the Celiac panel doesn't eliminate the possibility of gluten sensitivity. With some people, the only diagnosis comes after an elimination diet and then a "challenge."

[REP]

439. Or a biopsy; a biopsy is the best way to check for celiac disease

I'm Welsh and have almost every symptom of celiac disease ... except negative blood test and biopsy. But that's just me and my weird problem; a sigmoidoscopy and biopsy can rule in/out celiac sprue.

[pnwmom]

453. Right. A biopsy is the gold standard for Celiac disease.

But as I said, people like you can have just as serious a gluten sensitivity without having positive blood tests and a biopsy positive for Celiac. And if they continue eating gluten because they've been told they're negative on the Celiac panel, they have a higher risk for the same serious auto-immune disorders that plague people with Celiac.

This isn't just you and your "weird problem" -- there are many more millions with gluten sensitivity than there are with Celiac. Some of them have liver problems because of gluten; some have Crohn's that is triggered by gluten sensitivity; some have skin issues; and some have neurological problems related to gluten. And others have just been told they have "irritable bowel syndrome" and don't realize they'd resolve their symptoms if they removed every bit of gluten (and any other personal allergens) from their diet.

[VanillaRhapsody]

124. yes.

[gopiscrap]

154. You poor girl that must have hurt

[moriah]

364. Really, not worse than walking through a bad patch of brush nekkid... ;)

Sure, not fun, but no long-term damage. Within an hour the welts had gone down quite a bit, and the next day the only evidence was where the broken skin had formed a few dotty scabs, not even redness. Definitely no bruising or deep tissue damage, it was just surface skin scrapes.

Though, I don't recommend going through scratchy brush nekkid....

[gopiscrap]

376. Yeah no kidding, you seem to have a good sense of humor

[gopiscrap]

157. the end of your post is funny,

you sound like you were a little smart aleck like I was. I had a really smart mouth as a kid and was extremely hyper (now diagnosed as adhd) and I got a ton of spankings. I just counted it as the cost of doing business as a child.

[pnwmom]

244. She made you bleed. This was child abuse.

I also use to have dermatographia, and that wouldn't be enough to cause bleeding. Your mother had to hit you too long and too hard for that to happen.

(In light of the dermatographia, you might ask your doctor to check you for gluten sensitivity, if you haven't already. When I had to stop gluten for other reasons, my skin symptoms all went away.)

[MattBaggins]

294. Yes

[Ranchemp.]

69. Apparently the court disagrees with you and everyone else here

who thinks it's child abuse.
My parents weren't above using corporal punishment on us kids and we all turned out fine.
Your view is not the end all of how parents should discipline their children, you do it your way, others do it their way.

[cali]

84. fine. but the vast majority of experts agree with me.

you people are like climate change deniers. you go on faith rather than the actual data.

hitting is wrong. simple really. and it is lazy, stupid and lousy parenting. If you can't figure out how to discipline without hitting, take a parenting class.

[Ranchemp.]

91. As I said, we all have our own opinion and mine is different than yours

or any of the so called "experts".
I'm who I am today because my father wasn't above using the appropriate punishment when I screwed up, if he hadn't, who knows where I would be today.

What business is it of yours how others discipline their children?

[VanillaRhapsody]

129. oh really and is it our business if a child is put in the hospital because of said "discipline"?

or is that nobody's business either? If a parent is having sex with their child....is that nobody's business either?

See the problem with your justification is....you think your children are your property.

[MattBaggins]

297. What business is it of society if someone hits their wife?

Employee?
Elderly Parent?



.....Child?

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

419. You send your abused children out into our world, so it is our business.

LaundryQueen got it exactly right.

There are a million and one other ways to deal with bad behavior. Spanking is the laziest way. Works in the moment - scars forever. My parents spanking me messed me up, so for everyone who says, "I was spanked and I'm fine" I say, "I was and I'm not". Besides, define 'fine'. Usually people who think they are 'fine' aren't.

"

[gopiscrap]

173. Wow this thread sure struck a nerve

and I am glad it did. The very few times we spanked our children (hand only) and clothed, I still in hindsight think we could have done better. As a social worker I saw some truly beaten children and it always amazed what prompted and didn't prompt CPS to intervene. To be a cynic, so much of it boiled down to money and the likelihood of success in the petition.

[Ranchemp.]

177. Like you, I see alot of actual child abuse in the course of my job.

A few swats on a clothed bottom is not, my opinion, child abuse.

Sometimes the state agencies didn't intervene in time, and sometimes they intervened prematurely.

[gopiscrap]

180. My experience sad to say, is that most of the time the State intervened too late

mainly because of budget considerations. If we had our fucking priorities straight as a nation, social work would be fully funded and the fucking military would have to go hold a bake sale!

[Ranchemp.]

185. Can't fault your thought process there.

My experiences do not directly result from any specific complaint, that's not what my team does, it comes from after the fact.

If I had my druthers, the MIC would be cut by at least half and used to fund social services and, while we're at it, cut aid to the countries that are engaged in funding and training terrorists, like, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan........

[gopiscrap]

192. I agree. I live in a very military area and in 1989 I was the chair of the city initiative in

Tacoma WA (pop 200,000) that asked for a reduction of the defense budget by 10% and to put that to deficit reduction and social services. We weren't supposed to get on the ballot, but we did and we won with 64% it was called the Ten Percent Solution Initiative. Although advisory it was a wonderful conversation starter and got a lot of people to thinking about just how fucking much money we spend on the military. It also helped edge this area more to the left! BTW: go Dodgers! so glad they beat the Braves!

[pnwmom]

245. Apparently the court is STUPID. The girl clearly described abuse.

Here's what the social worker testified.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/H038241.PDF

Daughter stated that her butt is very sore today and her friends asked what was wrong and she talked to them what happen , even though her parents told her to never tell anyone about the spanking. started to cry and said she was scared of causing more trouble for herself.” According to the social worker, Daughter attributed statements to Mother that “she needs to smack her with a spoon so it will hurt more.” Daughter also supposedly reported that when receiving the spanking, “she had to remove her clothes and bend over the bed.”5 Daughter reportedly “stated she is scared of and knows she needs to be good to avoid getting a smack, but sometimes she has a hard time.” The social worker also reported that Daughter “asked if she could stay her paternal grandmother tonight because she was scared to go home,” and that Daughter “ha thought about staying with her paternal grandmother because she seems to get along better with her and things are not so scary.”6

[arely staircase]

236. you are correct about the bruises but wrong about the hitting itself being considered assault

children are regularly (legally) hit with wooden paddles in Texas schools, unfortunately. and it can only be done with the parent's permission. so parents here regularly give principals the authority to hit their kids with sticks.

look at this map. it isn't the last presidential race. the states in red allow corporal punishment in schools.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment

[pnwmom]

199. They BETTER go after cases like this.

The daughter described a form of sexual abuse.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/H038241.PDF

Daughter stated that her butt is very sore today and her friends asked what was wrong and she talked to them what happen , even though her parents told her to never tell anyone about the spanking. started to cry and said she was scared of causing more trouble for herself.” According to the social worker, Daughter attributed statements to Mother that “she needs to smack her with a spoon so it will hurt more.” Daughter also supposedly reported that when receiving the spanking, “she had to remove her clothes and bend over the bed.”5 Daughter reportedly “stated she is scared of and knows she needs to be good to avoid getting a smack, but sometimes she has a hard time.” The social worker also reported that Daughter “asked if she could stay her paternal grandmother tonight because she was scared to go home,” and that Daughter “ha thought about staying with her paternal grandmother because she seems to get along better with her and things are not so scary.”6

[B Calm]

7. Hard to believe the court didn't see this as child abuse! We

had a 5th grade teacher fired back in the early 60's for tapping the kids heads with his knuckles!

[oberliner]

9. You posted this article without comment

Do you agree or disagree with the ruling?

[cali]

13. If you read my comments in this thread, you'd know I strongly disagree.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

12. The negative effects on children include increased aggression aggression and noncompliance--

the very misbehaviors that most often inspire parents to hit in the first place—as well as poor academic achievement, poor quality of parent-child relationships, and increased risk of a mental-health problem (depression or anxiety, for instance).

High levels of corporal punishment are also associated with problems that crop up later in life, including diminished ability to control one's impulses and poor physical-health outcomes (cancer, heart disease, chronic respiratory disease). Plus, there's the effect of increasing parents' aggression, and don't forget the consistent finding that physical punishment is a weak strategy for permanently changing behavior.

If parents believe that hitting is an effective way to control children's behavior, and especially if that conviction is backed up by a strong moral, religious, or other cultural rationale for corporal punishment, they will confidently throw out any scientific findings that don't comport with their sense of their own experience.

The catch is that we frequently misperceive our own experience. Studies of parents' perceptions of child rearing, in particular, show that memory is an extremely unreliable guide in judging the efficacy of punishment. Those who believe in corporal punishment tend to remember that hitting a child worked: She talked back to me, I slapped her face, she shut her mouth. But they tend to forget that, after the brief pause brought on by having her face slapped, the child talked back again, and the talking back grew nastier and more frequent over time as the slaps grew harder.

Full article, Why You Shouldn't Hit Your Kids.

George Holden, a professor of psychology at Southern Methodist University in Dallas who published research last year on the first real-time study of parents physically disciplining their kids, says Afifi’s findings fit into a “large constellation” of studies that show children whose parents use physical force are at greater risk for depression and anxiety. “This is yet another study documenting that this practice can result in unintended negative consequences,” says Holden. “Other studies have shown corporal punishment in childhood carries over to adulthood in terms of aggression, so there’s no reason why it wouldn’t in the area of mental health.”

More here.

[LiberalLoner]

38. +1

[Paladin]

16. Oh, great. Here come the stories.

You know the ones I'm talking about: The "My daddy beat the shit outta me, and look how good I turned out" tales that flood in when something like this is reported.

Was I ever swatted with a wooden spoon when I was a kid? Yeah, it seems to me I was. Did my wife or I ever use a wooden spoon on our daughters? Fuck no. Different times, different responses.

[moriah]

25. Right or not, in my state, it's legal.

"Abuse does not include physical discipline of a child if reasonable and moderate and inflicted by a parent or guardian for restraining or correcting a child. Listed as not reasonable or moderate for correcting or restraining: -- Throwing, kicking, burning, biting, cutting, striking with a closed fist, shaking a child under 3, striking or other actions which result in any non-accidental injury to a child less than 18 months, interfering with a child's breathing, threatening a child with a deadly weapon, striking a child on the face, or any other act that is likely to cause bodily harm greater than transient pain or minor temporary marks. [Statute says this is an illustrative and not exclusive list]. Age, size, condition of the child, and the location of the injury and frequency or recurrence of injuries shall be considered in determining "reasonable" or "moderate." -- http://kidjacked.com/legal/spanking_law.asp#arkansas

Even my mother's unintentional injuries (and that's the biggest thing about corporal punishment, to me -- people tend to choose it when they're angry, and that's the time they're least capable of administering it "reasonably" and "moderately&quot could have been considered more than "minor temporary marks", it's likely even today she wouldn't have been charged.

Even in this case, bruising may not be considered enough evidence to consider it abuse. From an opinion in Maine from 2000 (so at least it's in this century vs last):

"1. All American jurisdictions allow parents to use at least moderate or reasonable physical force when they reasonably believe that such force is necessary to control their children;
2. To trigger criminal liability:
(a) the physical harm caused by the parent's use of force must be greater than transient pain and minor, temporary marks or bruises; and
(b) the parent's belief that such physical contact is necessary must be more than unreasonable; it must be a gross deviation from what a reasonable and prudent parent would believe in the same situation."

Does this mean I'd spank my kids if I had any? Probably not. I'm not saying I wouldn't smack a hand away from a hot stove, or smack a diaper and say "No!" as I'm hauling a kid away from the street if they tried to run out into it. If you think either of those two are extreme, maybe you haven't seen a kid get hit by a car or pull a pan of hot grease onto themselves.

[Paladin]

30. Ease off a little, OK?

You don't have anything close to enough information to critique the way my wife and I raised our children. This is why I hate it when threads like this one turn up on DU---thanks for the vivid reminder.

[moriah]

31. Did I say you were raising your kids wrong?

No. (And edit to add: I specifically said nothing about you or your kids, and only spoke of myself and hypothetical children I might smack on the diaper if I was hauling them away from a(n oncoming) car. And was more worried about you feeling that was too extreme. And a further, final edit -- because I hate to bump threads to make sure I'm not misunderstood. I meant that you might find it too extreme to condone another hypothetical parent doing, not suggesting that's how you should have handled kids running in the street.)

K? Seriously. I'm not a parent. I don't criticize people's parenting. Not my style.

[Paladin]

65. Sorry if I overreacted.

Like I said, it's a good lesson about the responses that threads like this attract. I generally try to avoid participating in them, and stick to threads with less controversy---like ones dealing with gun control.

[gopiscrap]

162. Hey Moriah, you sound pretty cool...I wouldn't worry about what others are saying!

to me, spanking is just one of many tools a parent/guardian has to use in the raising of children.

[RandiFan1290]

17. I use to get beat with a shoe

Actually, it was my mom's soft house slipper. It never hurt but I put on a good show for her and she got some frustrations out. I damn well deserved it too

I think 12 is a bit old for any spanking. Spoon or not

[cali]

18. I think hitting children to discipline them is lazy and sick.

[Niceguy1]

52. in the case of this child

I would have turned her phone off and denied her access to the net for a month or two. Much more effective.

[pnwmom]

250. Yes. And, as a bonus, not sexually abusive. nt

[Brickbat]

53. You deserved to have your mom act violently toward you so she could get frustrations out?

Hm.

[Decaffeinated]

20. Glad to hear it...

Doesn't even qualify...

[cali]

22. right. leaving bruise on a kid from hitting them, doesn't qualify as

child abuse.

yikes. sick.

[Walk away]

27. Cali, I rarely agree with you but in this case you are not only right...

but I think the people who are arguing with you are scary. If I ever saw anyone come near a child with a spoon or a switch I would call the police and then protect the child until the police came.
How utterly sickening to think that pain and intimidation is acceptable when dealing with children.

These people need to be treated to an adult sized spoon spanking AFTER the are forced to attend a course in basic behavioral psychology.

[cali]

29. I'm surprised by many of the posts endorsing this.

and add humiliation to pain and intimidation.

[laundry_queen]

206. They are in denial

Too many people don't WANT to admit they were damaged by it. Hence the "I was hit and I'm fine" posts. Lots of people aren't able to self-reflect. To lots of people "I'm fine" means "I didn't turn out to be a criminal and I have a job." It's easier to pretend that spanking somehow kept them from become a mass murderer than to admit it maybe kept them from becoming President, you know?

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

424. Sorry, I don't mean to stalk you, but, well said. This goes for

verbal abuse as well. It's trickier to define, but some parents use "teasing" that they think is harmless or funny and too bad if the kid thinks it is neither.

[Happyhippychick]

32. I think that those who feel corporal punishment is fine should take a long, hard look at how

They feel about the parent who hit them.

[moriah]

48. While I don't say it's "fine"... I think my mother....

... was extremely overwhelmed and in a position where she felt she had no other choice to control me. She was trying to get me to school, was going to be late to work herself, she was a single parent and taking care of me all alone when before she'd had her parents helping out to deal with my stubborn, willful self.... No, she shouldn't have done it then. I also don't think sending her to jail would have helped anyone.

For what it's worth, it's the only time she ever spanked me. Yes, she let her mother do so, but as I said, Granny used the switch without causing any kind of damage, and I have a feeling it was barely touching my skin and she was doing it for the psychological impact. Mom just didn't realize that.

[Happyhippychick]

56. I love your thoughtful answer!

I agree parents make bad choices and should be forgiven. To me hitting a child shows a lack of control on the part of the parent which is exactly what you said, an expression of their own frustration.

Jail and foster care aren't the answer either. Compassion and demonstration of other methods are.

[moriah]

137. I mentioned my story because it was truly a one-time abberation in Mom's childrearing.

When I was 2 and nearly burned down the house, Mom and Dad were still together and we lived away from my grandparents (the reason I was unsupervised.) They tried to ground me as punishment to try to teach me never to try to cook by myself again. I was still a little too young to get why I was being punished for doing something good... I'd been trying to make them breakfast in bed! Kids...

We moved in with my grandparents when I was 3, and my grandmother believed in the switch, but also knew its psychological power when a child was reasonably well-behaved. I don't recall the first switching, and really, they stopped when I was about 7 because I stopped doing things that got me into trouble like that. I don't recall pain associated with this. I recall being utterly humiliated and upset that I'd done something wrong. So I think, really, that Granny was probably barely even touching me, because she didn't *have* to do more.

She also believed in making a kid stand in the corner and wait for their switching until she was done with whatever she was doing, or making a kid go get the switch if there wasn't one in the house. She never switched me in anger. If Mom felt Granny was harming me, I think she would have said something. I also think that if someone was really USING a peachtree switch on a 5 or 6 year old, they would remember pain far more than embarrassment. As long as the allergic wheals are not given further trauma, they just itch like an SOB for about an hour as long as I don't mess with the area. So if she caused one, she was paying close enough attention to have seen it and stopped.... and remembered the next time not to go so hard.

After that incident, Mom never spanked me, and tried to find creative ways to ground me. I remember when I was a teenager and ran up the phone bill downloading software long-distance for my BBS. I not only had to pay her back the money, but she told me to "take the modem out of my computer and give it to her". I did... and put the slower one I had in. It really was a punishment, it was 2400 baud compared to my 14.4! Geez... I really did put her through hell.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

426. I agree with you about the jail part. In the case you describe, since it never happened

again, I would like to think your mom realized her mistake.

Many parents who hit their kids do deserve jail, though. I child should not have to live in an abusive situation.

[moriah]

442. I do think CPS has a lot worse cases to deal with than a 12-year-old who was spanked.

And it bothers me that kids are dying when focus is on families like this one, where when the parents were interviewed at the school with a police officer, the person making the complaint herself said there was no need to go further.

I could post links. I'd rather not, the cases are heartbreaking. But I can. Broken bones, burns, kicking, handprints on the face... of kids FAR younger than 12... all of those things were allowed to slide and kids died as a result, but a 12-year-old being spanked on the behind gets this much press and attention?

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

444. I'm sure they do, but this case looks like abuse to me.

Why can we spend trillions on defense, much of it unnecessary and ineffective, but we can't afford to adequately staff social services. It's all part of the same mentality.

[Brainstormy]

33. Children are not for hitting

nobody is. Parenting by physical force only perpetuates a cycle of violence.

[kcr]

34. It's a vicious cycle

Too many who had it done to them feel it's okay so they go on to do it to their own. It's horrific. We can hope that one day this country will join civilization and ban the practice but we have a long way to go.

[Le Taz Hot]

35. If you are reduced to striking a child

in order to "teach" them something or to "punish" them, you are, by definition, a failure as a parent. If you leave bruises and/or cuts on a child after you've "disciplined" them it is absolutely child abuse and you are in denial. If this is you, seek therapy before your child is forced to do the same because of YOUR abuse.

Spanking = child abuse.

[Decaffeinated]

50. Declaring it doesn't make it so...

... but feel free to have your opinion.

[laundry_queen]

207. No but studies show that it is so. nt

[Decaffeinated]

246. I would be very interested to see the study that proves a subjective opinion...

... as to what constitutes scientific failure as a parent.

Yes or No... Zero or one...

Good luck with that...

[laundry_queen]

268. Really?

LOL. Then look it up. Google is your friend. There are a lot out there. My daughter's therapist who specializes in children and play therapy gave me some readings. BTW my daughter was in therapy for a year because of my sociopathic ex who left us, and she had a hard time adjusting. Her therapist basically said she wishes all parents who brought their kids in were like I am. She said I was doing everything right and gave me some reading regarding parenting styles and outcomes. Interesting stuff. If you believe in that 'science-y' crap. Or are you one of those who doesn't 'believe' in psychology. Like Tom Cruise?

[Decaffeinated]

465. I am just fascinated...

.. that you think you can prove a subjective concept.

You can have general societal consensus (which we don't have on this subject). You can have personal opinions and experience (which is what you seemed to base your views off of).

While you may have been all you could be in your personal counseling sessions. I suspect the phrase "Science has proven that parents who use physical punishment are failures" was not uttered.

Not to mention the fact that you have millions upon millions of children, in America alone, who grew up to be functioning, successful happy adults and were spanked.

If you were going to define success as a parent I suspect it would be something along those lines. Create a functioning, successful and happy adult...

[laundry_queen]

477. Wrong.

I DON'T define success the same way you do.

Success to me is an adult who is empathetic, gentle, caring, helps others and is at peace with their life and their upbringing. I don't give 2 shits about 'successful'... and 'functioning' is the BARE MINIMUM of what I expect for any adult and I sure don't count that as some sort of measure of success as a parent. Most kids who have the shit beat out of them on a regular basis grow up to be 'functioning'. The same way my dad, who abused me and was abused, is happy with his life, and is an 'upstanding member of the community' and is 'functioning' in society just fine with a great job, has a 'happy marriage' and 2 'successful' children - one engineer and one almost done a Bcom in accounting. The same way my dad is a 'functioning' alcoholic and scares his grandkids when he drinks too much - he never hurts them or even yells at them, but he's a drunk just the same. Yet, I don't know of anyone who would call him a 'failure' but that's exactly what he is in my book for hitting his 18 month old baby girl (who still remembers it like it was yesterday). And my 'successful' engineer brother is also a weekend binge drinker, a racist (married to a wonderful woman of mixed race) and a conservative (an atheist conservative, but a conservative just the same) and I'm just thankful he doesn't have kids. He has dogs that he loses his temper on all the time.
He is just more proof to support all those studies show that children who are spanked are more violent. It doesn't matter if they are 'functioning' in society - that's a failure in my book. I expect SO much more.

What YOU are saying is that only if your kids are a criminal/drug addict/homeless can you claim their parents are 'failures'. I say that's a false measurement. And I again ask you if you believe that psychology is a science. It seems as if you don't. You seem stuck on 'subjective'. All psychology is subjective. Many medical studies are 'subjective' as well but they count just the same and are done in the same way - propose a theory, gather test subjects...you DO know that most medical studies aren't double blinds, right?

So - do you believe in psychology? or do you think it's woo?

[Decaffeinated]

480. You have very low standard for successful and functioning...

I hate to break it to you since you seem to think that only your definition matters but there are untold numbers of adults who are "empathetic, gentle, caring, helps others and is at peace with their life and their upbringing" and also got their butt whacked as a kid.

The world exists beyond your personal sphere of experience. I encourage you to poke your head out and broaden your horizons some time.

Not everyone has to fit inside your personal and specific definitions and frankly it's judgmental as hell.

[laundry_queen]

481. I DO judge people who think hitting a child is acceptable.

Deal with it.

As for "the world exists beyond your personal sphere of experience"....project much?

[Decaffeinated]

484. I don't demand that everyone hold the exact same beliefs...

... act according to my standards and parent with my personal system.

So I think I'm good...

Edit: I have this fun image of you snapping your fingers and bobbing your head as you say "Deal with it." Please tell me it is as amusing in real life...

[laundry_queen]

489. I don't (can't) head bob so no, probably not as amusing.

But I'm sure I have a good picture of what you are like in real life.

If your beliefs included abusing children, then society has a right to demand you change your beliefs because society has to deal with the fall out. If your 'beliefs' become unlawful, then society has the right to demand you stop. We're not there yet, but 50 years ago beating your child black and blue was acceptable in some places and no longer is. History shows you are in the wrong. I see you sense it, seeing as you are now resorting to personal attacks.

[Decaffeinated]

490. The final cry of someone with nothing to say...

Play the victim....

[laundry_queen]

491. LOL coming from you. And your 'beliefs'.

I could debate things of substance with you all day (and win) but you have nothing but personal insults. Why are you here? Pretty bold for a newbie.

[Decaffeinated]

492. It's adorable...

.. that you interpret someone disagreeing with you as personal insults.

If you are this shocked and shaken by those who don't conform to your personal standards, it's a wonder how you get out and about.

Ignoring the definition of words and declaring yourself the "winner" is not the same thing as actually coming to a logical and indisputable point.

[laundry_queen]

494. So basically you don't believe in psychology. Ok. nt

[Decaffeinated]

495. Double points for making stuff up...

Bravo...

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

504. No one is demanding everyone have the exact same beliefs. Eat

whatever peanut butter you think tastes best. Wear whatever color golf pants you like. I don't give a fuck what car you think is the coolest.

And I don't demand that you don't hit your kids. I just say, as pnwmom said so well:

Your methods are for the lazy parents, who need to use physical force and pain because it's faster than other forms of discipline (which also require self-discipline on the part of the parents, rather than lashing out)..

And, again, large scale studies by people who have access to far more information than you do have shown hitting your kids is not a good idea.

[Decaffeinated]

505. Congratulations...

You don't care about the piddly crap of life. All you want to have control over is how other people raise their children.

How accommodating of you... You are such a giving soul...

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

501. You're the one with the narrow view. Studies of large groups of children

show that hitting children and cause lots of long damage, but since in your little violence-condoning world you think you know more than those who've studied the issue on a large scale.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

500. Sure, because you can tell from the outside if someone is free of

emotional trauma from being hit by the person who is supposed to protect them? No, you can't.

Maybe some are, and many are not. But you have no proof of that but your own opinion based on a pathetic need to justify your own inability to find non-violent ways to raise your children.

[Decaffeinated]

503. You seem fussy...

I'll break it down Barney style...

I would reread your own statement there and see how much if it is just your opinion. (Hint: It's all of it)

Some people get spanked as children and grow up to be "good" and some grow up to be "bad"

Some people dont get spanked as children and grow up to be "good" and some grow up to be "bad"

The point is that a swat on the ass does not set one on one road or another for the future.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

506. My "opinion" is backed by those who have studied the issue on a large scale. Yours in based

on you liking the idea of hitting children and wanting to defend your violent nature. You lose.

[Decaffeinated]

512. As stated elsewhere in the thread...

Declaring yourself the winner and owner of all "facts" doesn't make it so... I hope it gives you some happiness. You seem.... unsatisfied.

Sure, because you can tell from the outside if someone is free of emotional trauma from being hit by the person who is supposed to protect them? No, you can't.

Maybe some are, and many are not.

According to your own words you have no idea. You seem to have a predisposed bias that influences your guess but you really don't know.

In contrast, I have the millions of people who had their butt spanked, who function well in society. Now, feel free to claim that they are all broken souls on the inside but that is just your guess. At least I base mine in observable facts...

Cheers...

[MattBaggins]

301. If you need to hit your children to teach them something you are a failure

Saying this doesn't make it so. It is "so" in of itself.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

429. I see you come here just to defend terrible parenting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023701381

Pathetic.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

514. No, it's not the declaring it wrong that makes it so, it's the fact that it is wrong.

But you're a champion for bad parenting skills and can't admit your mistakes, so you have to defend other lousy parents as well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023701381

I'm done with you and your sock puppet alter-egos.

[Decaffeinated]

517. It seems to drive you crazy....

... to know that there are people behaving in ways you don't approve. Results be damned...

Must be tough...

[charmay]

37. Personally, I have never hit a child and think that other punishments are more effective, but

my brother and I still laugh about the time that our mother got so fed up with him that she grabbed a wooden spoon and gripped onto his arm. They went in circles and she landed the blows wherever she could. Then shocked us both by saying "damn you". That was swearing by our standards. My brother was in 8th grade, and two heads taller, but she got the better of him that day.

My point is that spanking is neither black or white, and should be judged on a case by case basis.

[PotatoChip]

171. I disagree.

My point is that spanking is neither black or white, and should be judged on a case by case basis.

Hitting a child is hitting a child, no matter what the circumstances are. It is not only the wrong thing to do, but is also lazy and ineffective parenting.

[msanthrope]

39. Using the HuffPo as a legal source makes you seem uninformed when they incorrectly report a verdict.

My suggestion to you is that when you report a court case, you actually read the court documents, and use sources with a legal background.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/H038241.PDF

Had you done that, you would have noted that the 6th Appellate did not state that using a wooden spoon wasn't child abuse. No--what they merely did was remand the case back to the lower court since two serious errors had been made:

1) The lower court (and CPS) failed to give sufficient weight to the "right of a parent to impose reasonable discipline on his or her child." (Page 1.) and,

2) The hearing officer "committed a palpable and prejudicial abuse of discretion by refusing to permit Daughter to testify, citing the rationale—which flew in the face of the only evidence before him—that she would be traumatized by the experience." (Page 1)

The court reversed and remanded--and it was apparent from the first page of the ruling on what grounds. Whether or not child abuse occurred is yet to be determined.

[trumad]

42. Still fucking child abuse.

[msanthrope]

46. Perhaps. And I am not commenting morally, but legally. The state must and should take into account

a parent's legal right to impose discipline. This child should have been allowed to testify--especially since she wanted to.

The case outlined here indicates, in my opinion, a family that simply needed some help, as opposed to charges. I used to do juvenile justice, so I understand the frustration of these parents--and the utter desperation they must have felt when they thought they were in danger of losing their girl to terrible influences. I am not saying that what they did was right, but suggesting that the state had a plethora of options to exercise before charges were laid.

They have the right to impose discipline, but not to abuse. I hope they learn the former, better.

[cali]

45. fair enough- though I hope you point this out in every single story

about a legal opinion. Oh, you don't do that, do you?

and sorry, hitting children is child abuse and it's lazy, stupid sick parenting.

[msanthrope]

47. When I come across sloppy legal reporting, I absolutely comment on it. It's what I do. nt

[pnwmom]

254. The Court erred in considering it possible that the parent's behavior

constituted "reasonable discipline." It was sexual abuse disguised as discipline, which is obvious when you read the daughter's statement to the social worker.

The Social worker was worried, and quite rightly, that the daughter was too fearful of the parents -- and also of what could happen to the parents -- to give accurate testimony in the court room.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/H038241.PDF

Daughter stated that her butt is very sore today and her friends asked what was wrong and she talked to them what happen , even though her parents told her to never tell anyone about the spanking. started to cry and said she was scared of causing more trouble for herself.” According to the social worker, Daughter attributed statements to Mother that “she needs to smack her with a spoon so it will hurt more.” Daughter also supposedly reported that when receiving the spanking, “she had to remove her clothes and bend over the bed.”5 Daughter reportedly “stated she is scared of and knows she needs to be good to avoid getting a smack, but sometimes she has a hard time.” The social worker also reported that Daughter “asked if she could stay her paternal grandmother tonight because she was scared to go home,” and that Daughter “ha thought about staying with her paternal grandmother because she seems to get along better with her and things are not so scary.”6

[msanthrope]

324. Your own link disproves you---

5 All family members forcefully repudiated this statement. Daughter declared, “I
NEVER, EVER told ANYONE that my mom spanked me without any clothes on and
bent over. I don’t know where they got that from or why they would say that. That
makes me really MAD.” Mother and Father also took strenuous exception to this
suggestion, both insisting that spankings had always been administered over Daughter’s
clothing. The older sister declared that the suggestion of spanking “without any clothes
on and bent over the bed” was “just sick, and although I wasn’t there at that moment, I
KNOW my mom would NEVER do something like that.”

6 Daughter: “I NEVER said I was scared of my mom and dad. [¶] . . . I NEVER
said that I wanted to stay at my grandma’s house because things are not scary over there.
I SAID, that I COULD go to my grandma’s house IF THEY did not allow me to go
home, and I only said this because they asked me, ‘where would you want to go IF you
could not go home?’. I DID tell them that I wanted to go home and relax, more than
once. One of the cops even came in and asked me towards the end of this very long day,
‘what would you like to do now?’ and I replied, ‘I just want to go home and relax.’ So
OBVIOUSLY, I’m NOT scared of my parents or uncomfortable at my home.”

The minor in question was also extremely upset about the actions of the social worker and CPS...

3 School authorities reported that the photograph was taken at Daughter’s request,
but Daughter flatly contradicted this: “I DID NOT ask the nurse to check my butt OR
allow her to take pictures of it. They told me I HAD TO, as if I had no choice, and told
me to take my pants down so they could take a picture, even though I was saying ‘no’
and felt embar[r]assed and miserable.”

Daughter returned to this subject near the end of her declaration: “I demand that
any and all pictures of my butt be removed from any files and returned to me so that I can
destroy them. I never gave permission to anyone to photograph my butt and my parents
never gave permission either. I do not give anyone permission to look at any of those
photos any longer. Thank you.” This demand was ignored. Worse, and astonishingly,
the photograph or a copy was lodged with the administrative record in the superior court,
apparently unsealed, and a photocopy of that exhibit is included in the clerk’s transcript
on appeal. On our own motion, we have ordered that all copies in possession of this
court, the trial court, or the parties, be filed under seal.

[pnwmom]

326. Are you seriously saying that a child who has said that she's afraid

of her parents will give an honest statement to authorities when her safety is STILL AT RISK? Of course she's saying now what her parents want her to say. She doesn't trust the authorities to keep her safe from them.

This has nothing to do with her discomfort about having photos of her butt in the file. No doubt she is VERY unhappy about that. That doesn't mean she's being truthful now when she recants her earlier statement about the abuse. She has every reason to recant as long as she's living with those parents. She has every reason to fear retribution if she clings to her original statement.

[msanthrope]

362. I don't think that child's afraid of her parents. And I don't think she made any statement in the

first place that needed recanting.

I will tell you what I think--I think the Court understood that this case was mismanaged by CPS from the start, which is why they delivered such a definitive smack-down of CPS and the hearing officer.

I have a feeling CPS isn't going to pursue this case any longer.

[pnwmom]

363. So you don't believe this girl when she said that she was afraid of them?

She's just lying right?

The bruises don't confirm her story and she has no reason to be afraid of them.



You know this because you've got ESP or something.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/H038241.PDF

Daughter stated that her butt is very sore today and her friends asked what was wrong and she talked to them what happen , even though her parents told her to never tell anyone about the spanking. started to cry and said she was scared of causing more trouble for herself.” According to the social worker, Daughter attributed statements to Mother that “she needs to smack her with a spoon so it will hurt more.” Daughter also supposedly reported that when receiving the spanking, “she had to remove her clothes and bend over the bed.”5 Daughter reportedly “stated she is scared of and knows she needs to be good to avoid getting a smack, but sometimes she has a hard time.” The social worker also reported that Daughter “asked if she could stay her paternal grandmother tonight because she was scared to go home,” and that Daughter “ha thought about staying with her paternal grandmother because she seems to get along better with her and things are not so scary.”6

[msanthrope]

371. I don't believe the social worker. Neither did the court, it seems. And I think it's sloppy

of you to not include the sworn statement of the girl--which is your footnote 6--

6 Daughter: “I NEVER said I was scared of my mom and dad. [¶] . . . I NEVER
said that I wanted to stay at my grandma’s house because things are not scary over there.
I SAID, that I COULD go to my grandma’s house IF THEY did not allow me to go
home, and I only said this because they asked me, ‘where would you want to go IF you
could not go home?’. I DID tell them that I wanted to go home and relax, more than
once. One of the cops even came in and asked me towards the end of this very long day,
‘what would you like to do now?’ and I replied, ‘I just want to go home and relax.’ So
OBVIOUSLY, I’m NOT scared of my parents or uncomfortable at my home.”

[pnwmom]

378. That is her recantation of her statement to the social worker.

She recanted after being sent back to her parents even though she told a friend, and then the social worker about the abuse. She'd also said that her parents had told her never to reveal the spankings and that she was afraid of going back to them.

Nothing she says while still living with these parents can be considered reliable now.

[msanthrope]

382. Um, no--she didn't make a sworn statement to the social worker. Nor could the social worker

Last edited Sat Oct 12, 2013, 08:16 PM - Edit history (1)

verify that these statements were actually made by the girl.

I think the court got it right. It's remanded. Why do you have a problem with that?

[pnwmom]

383. WHAT KIND OF SOCIAL WORKER ASKS VICTIMS TO MAKE SWORN STATEMENTS?

Of course she didn't make a sworn statement, either to her friend, to whichever school person reported her, or the social worker.

Lots of victims lie and recant on sworn statements, if they're afraid of their abusers.

I wouldn't believe her sworn statement now anymore than I would believe a woman who recanted about being raped after going back to live with her rapist.

[msanthrope]

410. You know, I'm really not sure why you have a problem with the remand on this case. Nor am

I sure why you are yelling at me.

[pnwmom]

431. I'm yelling because this is such a serious issue and you don't get it.

The judge, in his remand, implied that what the parent did might fall under the category of "reasonable discipline."

Why are you defending a parent who hits a disrobed child with an object?

[msanthrope]

438. Judges don't imply. They rule. And the appellate court made no determination of what is reasonable

discipline--a fact that you seem to have ignored.

The entire point of the ruling is that CPS and the lower court should have made that determination using the facts and the law, rather than proceeding in the manner that they did. Also, discretion was abused when the minor wasn't allowed to testify.

I'm not defending anyone--I'm merely pointing out what the judgment actually says. Your arguments would be stronger, IMHO, if you knew what the court was actually discussing.

[trumad]

40. I have 3 kids---20---19---16

Never put my hands on them once.

I think hitting a child is the most cowardly thing you could ever do.

I had a elementary school teacher who use to bring us in his office and paddle the shit out of us---and that included girls. I am convinced he got off on it.

I've always had this dream of finding the fucker and kicking his fucking ass. Although he's probably dead now from old age.

[bunnies]

139. Reading through this thread...

I sincerely doubt your teacher is the only one who got off on it. Weve got some seriously twisted, violent people here, apparently.

[kcr]

161. I can't believe the one who wants to make their kids wait in anticipation.

Before they spank. Seriously disturbing. I can't even imagine doing that to my kids. Emotional abuse on top of the physical. How lovely. Its' one thing to do it out of anger. Those parents need help. The ones who coldly and calculatingly do it? There's something wrong, there.

[bunnies]

168. I know, right?

Must be so rewarding to terrorize a child like that. Makes 'em feel all powerful and superior no doubt. And if they do that to their kids... can you imagine what they do to their animals?

[kcr]

172. Those bible based how to train up your child by abusing them books

justify it that way. They claim it's better because it's not done out of anger. I think it's worse because it's cold and calculated. I think parents who do it out of anger and frustration are in the wrong, of course, but at least it's understandable. I'm not saying it's right, but it's an explanation. They need help and guidance and education. I can't abide the cold, calculated spankers. Ugh, just thinking about it makes me sick to my stomach. It's sociopathic.

[laundry_queen]

211. I totally agree with every word of what you just said. nt

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

436. Agreed. Just like the "God hates fags" assholes think they are doing right by god.

Disturbing.

[Brickbat]

55. The diminishing and normalization of violence in this thread is disgusting.

[cali]

58. +1

and kind of shocking to see on du

[alphafemale]

60. Odd that the only people it is still legal to use physical assault against are the weakest.

If your boss slapped you they would go to prison. Bruise or no bruise.

But a three year old that won't eat peas?

Wail away at that thing!

[MattBaggins]

304. Isn't that the sickest part of it?

If you hit someone in a nursing home at all, much less with an object, you would go to jail.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

441. Seriously sick.

[Sunlei]

62. Take away the cell phone! Its abuse/violence to hit others and criminal abuse when there are bruises

If the kid has to carry a cell, get a plain calls only phone.

[former9thward]

73. My mother used a small branch from a tree to strike me.

It was not child abuse.

[cali]

74. in your opinion. most experts disagree with you.

hitting a child is lazy, stupid and teaches children that hitting is acceptable.

[MattBaggins]

306. Yes it was

[pnwmom]

350. If you lived in my state it would be. n/t

[former9thward]

355. Looking at your profile I assume you live in WA.

The law in WA:

(2) Physical discipline of a child, including the reasonable use of corporal punishment, is not considered abuse when it is reasonable and moderate and is inflicted by a parent or guardian for the purposes of restraining or correcting the child. The age, size, and condition of the child, and the location of any inflicted injury shall be considered in determining whether the bodily harm is reasonable or moderate. Other factors may include the developmental level of the child and the nature of the child's misconduct. A parent's belief that it is necessary to punish a child does not justify or permit the use of excessive, immoderate or unreasonable force against the child.

In your state it would be allowed.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=388-15-009

[pnwmom]

374. This girl had contusions that were still making her sore

and could be seen in photos taken the next day.

Contusions are injuries. No, this wouldn't be legal in WA.


http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19960722&slug=2340496

The fact is that parents in Washington state do have the right to spank their kids. But state law forbids them from harming a child.

"While we recognize that parents have a right to discipline their kids, they don't have the right to inflict injury," says James Kelly, special assistant to the secretary of the state Department of Social and Health Services (DSHS) and a former child social worker.

State law defines child abuse as any practices "injurious to a child's health, welfare and safety." Child-welfare workers, in assessing whether children are at risk, use guidelines that consider the child's age and the force and location of the blows.

[former9thward]

380. I only described my experience.

I said absolutely nothing about the girl in the OP.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

446. A lot of totally fucked up shit is "allowed." In case you were using that

to imply that forcing a child to strip and beating them hard enough to leave bruises isn't totally fucked up.

[former9thward]

526. As usual you are trying to put words in my mouth.

I don't fall for that BS. I said nothing about the child in the OP. The poster I was replying to said corporal punishment is child abuse in all circumstances. I said corporal punishment can be appropriate in child rearing. The vast majority of the population agrees with that. But you are in everyone's home so you know better.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

443. Maybe, maybe not. It was still a lazy, lame way to parent.

As LaundryQueen said:T

here are a million and one other ways to deal with bad behavior. Spanking is the laziest way. Works in the moment - scars forever. My parents spanking me messed me up, so for everyone who says, "I was spanked and I'm fine" I say, "I was and I'm not". Besides, define 'fine'. Usually people who think they are 'fine' aren't.
"

And here's a great quote from pnwmom:

My kids were wonderful kids and are wonderful adults and I never hit them.

Your methods are for the lazy parents, who need to use physical force and pain because it's faster than other forms of discipline (which also require self-discipline on the part of the parents, rather than lashing out).

[former9thward]

524. I turned out fine.

But I'm sure you know better.

[jsr]

76. Well, it might end up like this:

[leeroysphitz]

78. This ruling is simple common sense and right thinking parents will agree with it.

[cali]

79. more like lazy, stupid parents agree with it. Parents who hit their children

because they don't know how to discipline without doing so are pathetic

[leeroysphitz]

81. LOL. Your buttons are so easy to push...

[MattBaggins]

308. You think discussing abuse is a LOL issue?

[leeroysphitz]

395. That's all you got? The humor police tactic. Very original.

[pnwmom]

348. I hope you're not a parent and never will be one. nt

[Ranchemp.]

83. That's your opinion and your opinion only,

millions of other parents throughout the land have a different opinion than you.
Yours is not the be all, end all.

[cali]

87. nope. it's the opinion of the vast majority of experts. sorry, pal.

[Ranchemp.]

92. "Experts"

[trumad]

94. tough guy!

[Ranchemp.]

97. You have no idea.

[trumad]

100. yeah...

Why dont you go smack a little fucking kid tough guy.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

447. Oh, don't worry. He will.

Sick fuck.

[Ranchemp.]

474. LOL

Yeah, I'm going to abuse children even though I've dedicated my life to bringing sick fucks to justice.
You are just too funny.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

496. Well, then you're just hilarious, dude. Bragging that you bring others

to justice for something you yourself do. Pretty damn hypocritical.

"Why dont you go smack a little fucking kid tough guy," was what I replied to, and you've already admitted you do that, so fuck your LOL and and your pretending you're some kind of fucking hero.

[Ranchemp.]

523. LOL.

You're just too funny.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

451. Just in case you missed it:

There are a million and one other ways to deal with bad behavior. Spanking is the laziest way. Works in the moment - scars forever. My parents spanking me messed me up, so for everyone who says, "I was spanked and I'm fine" I say, "I was and I'm not". Besides, define 'fine'. Usually people who think they are 'fine' aren't.
"
Hilarious, aint it? Don't bother to answer, I'm done with you and your lame excuses for being a crappy parent.

[cali]

98. yes. child psychologists, child rearing experts

In Child Discipline, Spanking Is No Hit

How long has it been since Mom or Dad swatted your bottom for getting into trouble? Probably decades, back when setting kids straight often involved spanking. These days, child-rearing experts urge better and safer ways of discipline.

Corporal punishment (hitting or spanking) can do harm. Very young children are easily injured, especially by parents with poor self-control or who don’t understand how little force it can take to seriously injure a small child. Following physical discipline, older kids can become more aggressive toward peers. Studies show that once children who have been spanked reach adulthood, they are more likely to become depressed, have suicidal thoughts, fare poorly in school, and abuse drugs.

<snip>

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=1818

Spanking: The Case Against It (Ages 6 to 12)

By Rob Waters

Should I spank my child?

The short answer is no. When children misbehave or act in defiant, inappropriate, or even dangerous ways, parents want to show that this behavior is unacceptable and needs to change. Parents may erroneously think spanking seems like a direct and effective way to do that, but it delivers other messages that we don't want to send:

Fear. Spanking teaches your child to fear you -- not to listen to you or respect you. He may also be humiliated and resentful, and retaliate by being uncooperative. The result: You'll be less able to reason and communicate effectively with your children.
Violence. Spanking teaches your child that violence is an acceptable way to solve problems. Not surprisingly, perhaps, research shows that children who are spanked are more likely to fight with and hit other children. And other studies find that kids who are hit are also more likely to become violent adults.
Distrust. Spanking teaches your child that when you make mistakes, you'll punish him rather than give sympathetic guidance. It erodes trust and disrupts the bond between you and your child that will allow him to be confident and flourish.
Poor self-esteem. Many studies have shown that hitting your child can hurt more than his body: It can injure his sense of who he is. He may reason that if he weren't such a bad kid, he wouldn't get hit. Soon, being "bad" becomes part of his identity. Studies by the late psychologist Irwin Hyman and colleagues at Temple University have shown that regardless of how nurturing a family is, spanking always lowers self-esteem.

<snip>

http://consumer.healthday.com/encyclopedia/article.asp?AID=646298

It's called science.

[trumad]

102. cali you are waisting your fucking time

With these keyboard douchebags.

Seriously. ...

[cali]

105. you are right. (how often do I say that?)

I'm finding this thread so depressing. I can't believe that people on DU endorse hitting their kids at all let alone with belts, branches and wooden spoons. DU has changed.

[trumad]

110. makes me sick

[Ranchemp.]

114. One more time,

my opinion is that once in a while an unruly child needs a swat on the bottom.
That's my opinion, which is different than yours and these so called "experts".

[cali]

117. they aren't so-called "experts". they are experts. period.

you may not like that, but that's simply factual.

and btw, you and others are justifying quite a bit more than "a swat on the bottom". You are justifying hitting children with wooden spoons, belts and switches to the point where physical injury is visible. that's sick and disgusting.

[Ranchemp.]

122. That's your opinion they're experts, mine opinion is different.

I never justified leaving any marks on children, I said that using corporal punishment is sometimes needed and it worked for me an my siblings as well as my children.

We can argue all day long about this, but in the end, it comes down to your opinion is different than mine.
I'm going to graciously bow out now, it's a beautiful Saturday, had a stressful week.
Have a good day.

[cali]

125. no. wrong again. critical thinking is clearly not your strong suit

and no, there has been nothing whatsoever gracious about your posts in this thread.

[VanillaRhapsody]

133. these people spank their kids cause they see them as property...

why slave holders beat their slaves....the kids must be taught that they are lower that worm shit....so these parents can feel superior. It's just like all these Republican voters that vote in for the party they think are going to make the folks they think are beneath them suffer. They cannot feel superior unless some one else is suffering more than they are.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

454. Really excellent point!

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

452. You know who can act all "Look how calm I'm being, so that makes

my argument better than yours"? Psychopaths, that's who.

You used the lazy, violent way to raise your children. No getting around it. Go enjoy your day. I guess you'd better hope no one has the "opinion" that you need to be punched in the face.

[William769]

150. Most grow up to cause havoc on the internet in libraries.

[Ranchemp.]

259. Internet tough guy?

buh bye

[hrmjustin]

265. Can't help yourself?

[hrmjustin]

262. I love it Bill.

[msanthrope]

418. You got that one nailed. nt

[Ranchemp.]

152. I'll just say to you what I've said to the others,

that's your opinion, my opinion is different.
Welcome to DU.

Or not.

[laundry_queen]

213. And some opinions are worth more than others

like, say a teabagger's vs a liberal's.

[Ranchemp.]

218. Opinons are opinions, nothing more, nothing less.

My opinion is worth just as much as your opinion.

[laundry_queen]

223. LOL. Okay. nt

[Ranchemp.]

227. I'm happy that we've come to an agreement.

And no snark or sarcasm intended.

[laundry_queen]

235. Well, mine had snark intended.

I see you are one of those last-worder types.

[Ranchemp.]

238. As are you.

That's where we differ, mine was sincere, but ok, whatever.

[laundry_queen]

299. The difference is I have no need to build up my post count. nt

[Ranchemp.]

309. Post count?

What's that got to do with the discussion?

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

456. Yeah right. If a gas station attendant has the opinion that

your car would run better on diesel fuel and fills up your tank with it, I'm sure you'll be fine with it.

Opinions that are no better than an opposing opinion are ones like this:
Pepperoni pizza is better than mushroom pizza!
Pink is the best color!
Spring has the best weather!

[VanillaRhapsody]

131. millions? Whatever gets you through the night bra....

[MattBaggins]

307. right thinking

lol

[pnwmom]

320. Right thinking parents will immediately recognize it as sexual abuse

in addition to physical abuse.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/H038241.PDF

Daughter stated that her butt is very sore today and her friends asked what was wrong and she talked to them what happen , even though her parents told her to never tell anyone about the spanking. started to cry and said she was scared of causing more trouble for herself.” According to the social worker, Daughter attributed statements to Mother that “she needs to smack her with a spoon so it will hurt more.” Daughter also supposedly reported that when receiving the spanking, “she had to remove her clothes and bend over the bed.”5 Daughter reportedly “stated she is scared of and knows she needs to be good to avoid getting a smack, but sometimes she has a hard time.” The social worker also reported that Daughter “asked if she could stay her paternal grandmother tonight because she was scared to go home,” and that Daughter “ha thought about staying with her paternal grandmother because she seems to get along better with her and things are not so scary.”6

[leeroysphitz]

327. So now spanking is rape? I should have seen it coming, I guess.

[pnwmom]

329. Fifty shades of gray type discipline is sexual abuse,

when carried out on your 12 year old. Yes.

[leeroysphitz]

332. Sorry I hadn't realized they had blind-folded and hand-cuffed thier victim.

Why hasn't somebody put a stop to these shameless sexual sadists?

[pnwmom]

340. Forcing your naked 12 yr. old, or even your half-naked 12 yr. old

to lie over a bed to receive a paddling with a wooden spoon is sexual and physical abuse.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/H038241.PDF


"According to the social worker, Daughter attributed statements to Mother that 'she needs to smack her with a spoon so it will hurt more.' Daughter also supposedly reported that when receiving the spanking, 'she had to remove her clothes and bend over the bed.'

[MattBaggins]

375. Save yourself a headache

Some people are here only to stir a shit pot. Don't feed the egos.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

458. Why should you have seen it coming, exactly. Too much

antirape talk going around these days?

And rape is not the only form of sexual abuse. Did you see that coming, too? From your porch?

[bunnies]

85. What the fuck?!

I can not BELIEVE some of the posts in this thread. Its fucking sickening. Truly fucking sickening.

[cali]

89. sick as well as sickening that people on DU happily endorse hitting children with

belts, branches, wooden spoons, etc.

DU has changed. for the worse.

this shit is straight out of freeperville.

[bunnies]

90. You got that right.

I dont think Ive ever been so disgusted by posts here.

[TBF]

116. I think you nailed it -

the trolls/moles love these threads. If I were admin I'd read every single response and delete the cavers/freepers accordingly.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

459. That would be nice. Then again, i guess it's good to know

that these abusive assholes are proud of themselves. That way maybe less abused kids will be called liars.

[arely staircase]

103. Spanking a child with anything with enough force to leave visible bruises is child abuse nt

[TroglodyteScholar]

106. Bruises are bruises.

And you don't beat good behavior into a child any more, if not because it's cruel, then because it doesn't fucking work.

[cvoogt]

109. Wood spoon? Sickening.

Metal spoons are where it's at. But seriously, there are options besides hitting your kid with a spoon of any sort. Or a switch, or other implements. I can understand the impulse (I have been in that position too), but you (and your kids) will thank yourself for resisting it.

[jsr]

128. It's a good way to teach impulse control/self-control

No one should beat their kids.

[nolabear]

118. Not only is it abuse, it misses a chance to create maturity and self-regulation.

There's a hierarchy of moral behavior. At the bottom is "I won't do it because I will be punished if I do", which admittedly can be strong enough to stop the behavior even when one could get away with it, but very, very often creates the attitude that life is a series of who can control whom. Then there's "I won't do it because I'm a part of the world and I care about the effect my behavior has on others". It's considerably harder to help a child to learn that way of thinking, and when you are in panic mode yourself it's not easy to step back and think of a better consequence to behavior that makes it not just a battle of will and power but a learning about natural consequences of behavior.

Example: My son, when he was in the awful, terrible twos occasionally would throw a fit in the store (and those fits are not mean; a two year old cannot yet control those wild swings of feeling and is miserable and unable to be reasonable). I would ask an employee to let me park my cart for a minute, pick him up and take him outside, and put him in the parked car, where I would let him settle a bit and help him say the words he needed. Sometimes it was "I WANT it!" and no more. "I know. But you can't have it. But I need for you to help me get our supper so we can go make it for Dad. How about if we find something you can give Dad for supper? He'd like that." "No!" "Okay. You don't have to. But we have to stay here til we can go back into the store. If you can stop crying we'll see what you can find for us to make for Dad. I really need your help. Want to be a big guy and help me find just the right thing to make our supper?" Quietly, insistently, offering an appealing alternative and with no giving in. It takes time and effort and the ice cream might get soft. But the child is more valuable. And when the fit never works, never gets what is desired, it doesn't get reinforced. Meanwhile, the psyche matures and the ability to negotiate himself improves. Eventually if he wanted something he could present a case for it and find a way to be effective in getting it. He was fabulous at earning money and planning things by the time he was six.

Twelve? Kids that age are rarely diagnosed with personality disorders because they're all nuts. You can beat the demonstration of it out of them but you can't help them get through it and learn to self regulate their internal world-just not to inconvenience you.

Example: My other son once got mad about some damn thing and slammed a door open hard enough to dent the drywall. I didn't throw my own fit but did hold the line on whatever he wanted, and once he'd settled enough to talk I insisted that he accompany me to the hardware store, learn how to fix the wall (with my help; it was cool for us both to learn) and do that before he participated in any activities. Yeah, he tried throwing another fit or two about it but in the end I did have the power and, during the time we were working, we got to talk about how disturbing and disturbed his adolescent tantrum was. I admitted that it was scary and hurt my own feelings and how hard it was not to yell back, but that "We're not that kind of family." It became part of his identity not to be that kind of person, and to know that I was proud of him for being one of us. He learned that reparations can be made and he can be forgiven.

The guys have not a single "Remember that great time when you beat the hell out of me" story. I have a lot of "I was terrified of my father and my stomach was in knots when he was around" ones. They are considerate people who care about others and go out of their way to demonstrate it. I don't consider that "special". I just consider it human, and humane.

I know I'm being long-winded and believe me I don't think I'm a paragon of good parenting, but I do think beating results from uncontrollable rage and fear on the part of the parent, and in all my years of treating both children and adults in therapy I am often sad at how that gets passed from generation to generation because no one was taught to regulate those feelings and so can only resort to them again and again.

[cali]

119. long winded? Not in the least! what a great, great post. thanks.

[nolabear]

123. *Whew!* I've been here too long. I was bracing for, well, a verbal whuppin'.

Not from you, but DU can be like that sometimes. I thought long and hard before I hit that button. That old stomach knot, doncha know. Thanks.

[cali]

127. I'm so glad you did hit that button

best post of the thread by leaps and bounds.

[leftstreet]

135. +1

Excellent examples

And your hierarchy is spot on:

"I won't do it because I will be punished if I do"

"I won't do it because I'm a part of the world and I care about the effect my behavior has on others".

Indeed the first only teaches obsession with who's-in-control. The second teaches self-control

[chowder66]

176. You are teaching while disciplining

which is fantastic.
Aggressive discipline can read as attention to children. It's negative attention but attention nonetheless. And it is the wrong way to seek attention but children don't necessarily understand that. So when parents spank... the kids are getting attention but with physical pain. Children don't know how to process this in their developing brains. It's a conflict that can do some minor to severe damage depending on the severity, frequency and reasons for physical punishment.

Physical discipline is typically a very short-term fix mainly for the parent and has nothing to do with real discipline in regard to the child. When a parent spanks, paddles, inflicts physical punishment it does not end there typically. A lesson is typically given after but the resentment and/or lingering pain that a child is trying to cope with distracts from hearing and understanding the lesson the parent is teaching. This is why taking the time in the first place is actually more beneficial. And it is beneficial to both the parent and child.

If children see they can get a rise out of a parent (intellectually not knowing that this is what they are doing) then it can create a longer road for the parent getting the results they seek.

Teaching kids self control, accountability, consequences and other values without physical punishment may take more time in the moment but doing so goes a lot further in shaping them which is ideal for any human.

Sending a child to their room while the parent and child calms down helps to diffuse negative attention. And it causes a break in the attention seeking. The parent can also take the child out of an environment to isolate them, calm down the situation then take the time to impart a lesson when the time is right.
As kids get older the parent can use a value earned discipline system by taking something away whether it is a toy, electronics, a privilege or deductions from an allowance and then have the child earn back those things by having them do chores or some sort of work for privileges. This teaches the value of earning, self-discipline and consequence which they can take into their adulthood.

So I take my hat off to you and your parenting skills.

[nolabear]

195. Exactly. And thanks. The amazing moments were bountiful, so it balanced out!

My older son once got a Halloween costume (at about age four) that was a used, incredibly elaborate Captain Hook suit. He absolutely fell in love with the purple satin knee breeches. He also had a fierce attachment to a bomber jacket. For about six months I joked that I felt as though I was going everywhere with my own tiny Mick Jagger.

Younger son, at age two, found his first absolute favorite song. It was Mannish Boy. He'd sit in his car seat in the back singing along at full volume, "I'm a MAN! Spelled M-A, Child-N!" I'm sure people wondered why I was driving down the road laughing til I cried.

I can't imagine hitting such delightful creatures.

[chowder66]

202. You're welcome and thanks

for sharing your wonderful parenting skills. Kids are so funny and wonderful and your kids do sound delightful. They must get it from you.

[nolabear]

274. Maybe a bit but their dad is just a great guy.

It just might simply be that we're happy and all enjoy being together. Even now that they're adults we just plain like one another. I am very, very fortunate.

[laundry_queen]

222. Excellent post

every spanking is a lost opportunity to teach a child about self-control and empathy.

I have many stories like yours. Raising a child without spanking takes effort, time and education. It's not easy (especially for those of us who were spanked and abused), but it's worth it.

[nolabear]

281. Amen. I'm glad you've held out. The reward is good!

[Celefin]

231. Thank you. You win the thread - by a mile.

So much of this thread is simply disgusting. I've spanked my oldest daughter once when she purposefully kicked her little sister down the stairs... and although perhaps justified in such an extreme case I am NOT fond of this memory and never will be. Guess in that case I wasn't strong enough, well. Never happened again, though (neither the kicking nor the spanking).

Great post, right on every count. Thanks.

[nolabear]

280. I know. I smacked a diapered bottom once too. I hate that.

I was freaked out. He doesn't remember it but I do. I swore never again and stuck to it, mad as I sometimes got. Kids are HARD! I know how hard. But they can't be adults, no matter how frayed our last nerve is.

Thanks for the support. You're very kind.

[PotatoChip]

256. Excellent post! Thank you. (nt)

[nolabear]

283. ...

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

460. Superb post. Of course, for the child beaters here it will be

TLDR.

[Laffy Kat]

126. I always heard the advice that you should never spank a child in anger.

What I realized as a parent is that if you wait until you're not angry you will not spank at all. If you take a deep breath, put YOURSELF in a time-out if needed and calm down, the urge to spank your child evaporates. Spanking is a form of hitting, plain and simple. Usually, time-outs if administered properly and consistently, work. If not, you've got a bigger problem and you need a professional to intervene. My two cents.

[gtar100]

134. So it can be called "discipline" when done to one's own child but it's assault in all other cases.

That's how messed up this whole argument for corporal punishment is.

[gollygee]

138. +1

People who hit their kids, particularly who beat them with objects hard enough to leave visible bruises, are sick sick sick.

My kids are wonderful and have never been hit.

[lumberjack_jeff]

136. I don't think that putting the child in foster care would have been better.

But I think this is an interesting reflection on how fast society is changing.

I'm only fifty. I was hit with a long oar-like paddle weighing roughly 40x as much as a wooden spoon, by my gym teacher.

I think modern discipline is better, but I think the hysteria brigade upthread should chill a bit.

[pnwmom]

165. The girl wanted to stay with her grandparents.

Seems like a good solution to me.

[missingthebigdog]

530. Have you considered that the grandparents were probably ok with the spanking?

Where do you suppose these parents learned this method of child rearing?

[pnwmom]

532. I"m listening to the girl, who said the grandmother wasn't scary

and the parents were.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

462. There is no "Hysteria Brigade."

The general idea is this, from LaundryQueen:

There are a million and one other ways to deal with bad behavior. Spanking is the laziest way. Works in the moment - scars forever. My parents spanking me messed me up, so for everyone who says, "I was spanked and I'm fine" I say, "I was and I'm not". Besides, define 'fine'. Usually people who think they are 'fine' aren't."

[mzteris]

156. bullshit - HITTING A CHILD

with anything - is child abuse.

[pnwmom]

160. What the girl described was a form of SEXUAL ABUSE

The social worker responded properly. The fact that there were significant bruises supports the girl's initial story to the social worker, not the one she later changed to -- no doubt out of fear of and for her parents.

These abusive spankings were carried out by both parents at different times, but the mother is the one alleged to have used a spoon.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/H038241.PDF

[Daughter] stated that her butt is very sore today and her friends asked what was wrong and she talked to them what happen [sic], even though her parents told her to never tell anyone about the spanking. [Daughter] started to cry and said she was scared of causing more trouble for herself.” According to the social worker, Daughter attributed statements to Mother that “she needs to smack her with a spoon so it will hurt more.” Daughter also supposedly reported that when receiving the spanking, “she had to remove her clothes and bend over the bed.”5 Daughter reportedly “stated she is scared of [Mother and Father] and knows she needs to be good to avoid getting a smack, but sometimes she has a hard time.” The social worker also reported that Daughter “asked if she could stay [with] her paternal grandmother tonight because she was scared to go home,” and that Daughter “ha[d] thought about staying with her paternal grandmother because she seems to get along better with her and things are not so scary.”6

[cali]

169. you are so right. it is sexual abuse as well as physical abuse.

[pnwmom]

181. cali, it would be interesting to see,

if you added the social workers statement and link to your OP, if people here would be reacting differently -- or if they would still be trying to excuse these parents.

[cali]

196. that would be interesting. I strongly suspect that people here would be reacting

differently. Once you introduce the element of sexual abuse, reaction is almost certain to be strongly negative. that's a taboo. Hitting your child isn't.

[pnwmom]

200. So . . . would you mind adding the info? n/t

[cali]

203. not at all. I think it's a little late for it, but what the hey.

[pnwmom]

210. Thanks! You're on the greatest page now, so there will probably be

more people reading this . . . they may as well know what the story was that the social workers were concerned about.

[roamer65]

163. In these days of high tech wizardry, simply depriving them of it is significant punishment.

Grounding them and depriving them of social media and gadgets has a LOT more effect now.

Pull their iPads, iPhones and it gets their attention real quick.

[pnwmom]

184. New title: Paddling half-naked 12 year old is not child abuse, says State Court

These abusive spankings were carried out by both parents at different times, but the mother is the one alleged to have used a wooden spoon.

http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/H038241.PDF

stated that her butt is very sore today and her friends asked what was wrong and she talked to them what happen , even though her parents told her to never tell anyone about the spanking. started to cry and said she was scared of causing more trouble for herself.” According to the social worker, Daughter attributed statements to Mother that “she needs to smack her with a spoon so it will hurt more.” Daughter also supposedly reported that when receiving the spanking, “she had to remove her clothes and bend over the bed.”5 Daughter reportedly “stated she is scared of and knows she needs to be good to avoid getting a smack, but sometimes she has a hard time.” The social worker also reported that Daughter “asked if she could stay her paternal grandmother tonight because she was scared to go home,” and that Daughter “ha thought about staying with her paternal grandmother because she seems to get along better with her and things are not so scary.”6

[mzmolly]

186. Ugh.

WTF.

[tblue37]

194. A poem by African-American poet Robert Hayden (1913-1980)

The Whipping

The old woman across the way
is whipping the boy again
and shouting to the neighborhood
her goodness and his wrongs.

Wildly he crashes through elephant ears,
pleads in dusty zinnias,
while she in spite of crippling fat
pursues and corners him.

She strikes and strikes the shrilly circling
boy till the stick breaks
in her hand. His tears are rainy weather
to woundlike memories:

My head gripped in bony vise
of knees, the writhing struggle
to wrench free, the blows, the fear
worse than blows that hateful

Words could bring, the face that I
no longer knew or loved . . .
Well, it is over now, it is over,
and the boy sobs in his room,

And the woman leans muttering against
a tree, exhausted, purged—
avenged in part for lifelong hidings
she has had to bear.

[font size="+2"][font color="blue"] <emphasis added>

[pnwmom]

212. Thanks! n/t

[dkf]

215. My dad spanked me once with a wooden spoon and left a red mark on my butt.

One and only time that happened...and that's because I still remember that spank and I learned not to be so bad that my dad got called in by Mom.

My mom used to spank but honestly it was nothing. I used to laugh and tell her so (ugh such bad behavior!).

[pnwmom]

233. Was your dad sexually abusive, too? I suspect not.

But this parent was. What this girl described to the social worker was a form of sexual abuse.


http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/H038241.PDF

Daughter stated that her butt is very sore today and her friends asked what was wrong and she talked to them what happen , even though her parents told her to never tell anyone about the spanking. started to cry and said she was scared of causing more trouble for herself.” According to the social worker, Daughter attributed statements to Mother that “she needs to smack her with a spoon so it will hurt more.” Daughter also supposedly reported that when receiving the spanking, “she had to remove her clothes and bend over the bed.”5 Daughter reportedly “stated she is scared of and knows she needs to be good to avoid getting a smack, but sometimes she has a hard time.” The social worker also reported that Daughter “asked if she could stay her paternal grandmother tonight because she was scared to go home,” and that Daughter “ha thought about staying with her paternal grandmother because she seems to get along better with her and things are not so scary.”6

[KG]

224. how come i knew before i even opened this thread there'd be some assholes defending it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

232. Because that's the way these threads go...

When I read this had happened on multiple occasions it made me sick. That's not punishment...it's not even a "mistake" on the part of a parent who "lost it" for a second. That's abuse.

[FrodosPet]

226. If you have to spank your kid

You suck as a parent, and they need to be taken away and put in foster care or a group home, where they can be raised by professionals who are closely supervised by the local CPS.

[Iggo]

239. Whooo-boy!!!

this thread is full of 'em!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

252. My folks chased me down the sidewalk with a bamboo switch in hand.

And what did I do that was wrong?

I WENT OUTSIDE TO PLAY WITH OTHER KIDS.

That's right. I went outside to play with other kids, like any normal kid.

They were jailers. Wardens. Didn't want me to play with other kids. Wanted to isolate me.

My mother wouldn't let me pick out my own clothes, and then wondered why I came home crying from them picking on me. She also gave me horrible ammonia perms so I would have Shirley Temple ringlets and wondered why I came home crying from being picked on from that.

Then she bought me pink lipstick in tenth grade and told me I needed to wear lipstick ( because red lipstick was her idea of makeup--like Joan Crawford) and wondered why the kids picked on me for wearing lipstick, when they were wearing heavy eyeliner in the seventh grade.

If I tried to fit in, she thought that was just horrible. My dad took me to a beautician in high school and I got a Jane Fonda shag, like she wore in the movie "Klute" in 1971. Well, Mom was just horrified and ranted about how terrible it was. I was supposed to look like Shirley Temple as a kid, and Joan Crawford when I grew up. No eye makeup, nothing for dark circles. Just very unnatural red lipstick, because Mom wore red lipstick. She had mental problems and was a hoarder.



My mom would run down the sidewalk screeching my name, and I would hide on the side of the neighbor's house with the neighbor kid and he would laugh at her.

If I sneaked out the front door to play with the other kids, Mom would get mad and scold me for "running off" like that was a major sin, instead of normal childhood behavior. Pretty sick.

I could run faster than the parents but I still remember it like my brain is on fire. We didn't have computers or anything. They literally could not have grounded me, because all I did was eat, sleep, go to school and play in orchestra. I came home every day after school and slept for three hours because of my thyroid problem.


In the summer I was bored, and my parents didn't want me to play with the other kids, who were mostly mean little bastards, so I would stay inside and read and cry all the time from boredom.

[pnwmom]

258. It sounds like you have a terrible childhood, with at least one parent

who was out of control with a personality disorder or mental illness.

I'm very sorry that happened to you -- that it happens to any children.

[darkangel218]

266. Im sorry you had to go through that...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

288. Thank you. Part of the hoarding dynamic is extreme social isolation.

Because Mom is a hoarder, you can't invite your friends over, you can't have birthday parties with school kids, or sleepovers. I could not do any of those things. I shared a bedroom with my sister because one bedroom was full of her junk (crappy un-air conditioned 3 brm house) Mom would tell me I was lazy when I wouldn't do chores, but I wasn't allowed to throw anything away. The house was dusty and we had rats and roaches.

I also had no spending money. I begged for an allowance but never got one. I was told, "We buy you anything you need." I even cut articles out of the paper saying "Psychologists say giving kids an allowance helps teach them financial responsibility." That was an appeal to authority.

Then they'd get mad because they thought I couldn't handle money. They also wondered why I married men who were verbally abusive, but they never told me to stand up to negative men, and stop going out with them. I was a doormat because they wanted to control me.

Mom was a hoarder and I couldn't clean out her house until she died. We took her to a psychiatrist and he told her she wouldn't live long enough to clean her house. She yelled at him and he told her to stop interrupting him!!! We were trying to detox her from her trank addiction. She was busy sleeping her life away and complaining about how she was too busy to do things. Hadn't worked outside the home since 1947.

We once cleaned out some stuff and she came outside and growled at me. She was so stressed out that she dissociated into another personality, and we did not realize it until a few months later.

In my adult life I have felt powerless due to abusive and irrational bosses, and always felt like they were threatened because I had a lot of education (three college degrees including a J.D.).

I thought I would be rewarded with good jobs because of my education and competence & perfectionism. It's about knowing the right people, or maybe bribing them. I don't know. I never had a boss who encouraged me in any way or praised me. If I did something right I would probably get punished
or scolded, since corporate America is Bizarro World.

[darkangel218]

302. You need to break away from that.

Your mom was toxic to you. You need to break away from the past. You can't let anyone else value you, except yourself.
Its never too late to " run away from home".
Do it.
Leave all that toxic shit behind. You already know how much more you're worth.
Turn the page.
The sun is up and shining!
Can you feel it?

[pnwmom]

323. You are a survivor.

No one should have to live through a childhood like yours. Your professional career might not be working out the way you hoped, but you are very strong inside or you'd never have accomplished all that you have -- despite everything.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

338. Thank you!!

--->DarkAngel and pnwmom<---

I have found that there are a few good things I got from Mom, mostly when I was little. Like her artistic talent. She was a costume design major in college. She taught me to sew on a Singer Featherweight, and what kinds of clothing shapes and colors were flattering. She took me outside and said "This is a begonia, this is a schefflera, this is a philodendron" and taught me proper names for plants. She taught me some good cooking skills.

So I remember those and that helps.

[gopiscrap]

388. What a horrible childhood

I am so sorry you had to go through that!!!

[Hippo_Tron]

359. Your story made me cry

I really hope you've had an adulthood that's the polar opposite of that.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

479. Well, not really.

Two horribly abusive marriages I had to get out of. Emotionally and verbally abusive. Because my parents never told me to get away from negative guys. I had no idea what a good relationship looked like.

My big sister died in 1990 from brain cancer. She worked at M.D. Anderson Hospital, the largest cancer hospital in the world. She had married abusive men too. Her death really destroyed my parents and me. I was also quite ill myself physically for several years and going through a bitter divorce at that time.

Both my parents got Alzheimer's and got very irrational and just plain nasty in the 1990s. It was a relief when they died and stopped telling me everything I was doing wrong. My dad chewed me out one time for buying a turkey breast and fixing Thanksgiving dinner for them, because I was spending money. You really can't counteract that kind of irrationality. They also blamed me for my being unemployed and reminded me that they spent lots of money on my education. Twelve years of college. They only praised me for being smart.

I was a good girl, worked hard, went to school and got a good education, and feel like I didn't get rewarded for it. But our society throws away talented people by the millions, companies destroy professional jobs, so it's certainly not unique to me or other baby boomer generation people.

I finally met my soul mate when I was about forty, and we're still together. I have a house to live in and a bit of income so things are a lot better. And I have a grown daughter who seems to be happy and has her life in order.

[AverageJoe90]

257. While abuse really does depend on the intent *and* the extent of the injuries....I can say this:

From what I'm reading, it does look like this mother *should* be charged with reckless endangerment, even if she didn't intend to cause such injuries.....and if evidence surfaces that there may indeed have been instances of intentional injury, then Gonzalez needs to be charged with something more serious; clearly, this family is rather significantly dysfunctional, at the very least.

Hope the girl gets the help she'll need.....even if that means removing her from the family for a while, if not permanently.....

[ejpoeta]

263. my oldest sister put it quite well once....

she said if you did that to an adult you would be in jail. Why is it ok to do it to a child. She is a lawyer that regulary represents children in family court issues. She has spent the better part of her life working to help children. When we had this conversation she was in college. I think that puts it quite well. Why IS it ok to do it to kids when if you took a wooden spoon and hit an adult with it you would go to jail? She also said that this form of discipline is not discipline, but about anger. Your anger. It was an eye opening discussion. I was spanked as a kid. And I knew not to talk back or disobey etc. But I won't do it to my kids. I have found that such a form of discipline teaches kids that violence is an acceptable form of dealing with problems. There are better ways to deal with things. Things that I find tend to work much better.

[pnwmom]

289. Show me an adult who was repeatedly hit as a child

and I'll show you an adult with anger issues -- whether they are consciously aware of them or not.

[darkangel218]

267. There is never an excuse for hitting a child!

For those of you who think its ok to swat "over clothes" or whatever the fuck you said, would you hit a dog or a cat??? Children don't understand what's going on, especially the very lil ones!

Wtf is wrong with you people????!?

[sad-cafe]

269. oh goody Kate Gosselin

has been justified.

she "happy ups" her children all the time with a red wooden spoon

[laundry_queen]

272. She crossed my mind when I read this too

I've heard all about Kate's spoon.

[PeteSelman]

270. This seems to be a clear case of child abuse to me.

It also seems to be some sick kind of sexual abuse as well.

It's strange to me that assaulting a child is still legal in any form, let alone prolonged beatings that produce serious bruising and welts.

Fucked up ruling.

[darkangel218]

276. And some on here think thats fine.

Fucking disgusting!

[PeteSelman]

311. It's pretty sad.

All you're teaching a kid by hitting them is that bigger people can hurt smaller people. That's a bad message to send.

[darkangel218]

314. Thats aside fron scaring them for life.

[PeteSelman]

317. That's true.

The emotional damage can be worse than the physical.

[RKP5637]

287. I was beaten with a belt as a kid as were my sisters for really doing nothing wrong. I have

absolutely no respect for people that think beating kids is useful and harmless in raising children. I still have emotional scars from it as do my sisters!

[darkangel218]

315. Thats exactly what ive been saying, RKP!

[RKP5637]

427. ...

[Skeeter Barnes]

377. Been there. Still get mad thinking about it to this day. You are not alone.

I sure was glad when I got big enough to hit back. They stopped doing it then!

[Nevernose]

300. Here's a dialogue I have w/ students (seniors):

Mister Nevernose, how often do you whoop your kid? Is it all the time, is it hard? Do you mostly just scare her?

I've never laid a finger on her. I've yelled more loudly than I should have, and once I cussed at her, but I realized instantly I screwed up and apologized. But I've never laid a finger on her.

Isn't she all screwed up and in trouble and running around at night and stuff? How do you control her if you don't ever give her a whoppin'?

She's a really good kid. Dies what she's supposed to, not skanking around, no drugs or alcohol, works really hard at school, has a job, volunteers with younger kids, rarely talks back. She's not perfect, but we handle things.

And you never hit her?

Look: I teach the worst kids in this town, and some of those "worst kids" are the ones in this room. And have I ever had to hit any of you? Y'all do what I want and what needs to be done without hitting. It's not always perfect: we argue sometimes and some of y'all act up, but I never have to hit anyone.

And every time we have this dialogue, it ends with a classroom full of kids saying, "Holy shit. I never looked at it that way before."

[pnwmom]

345. You sound like a wonderful, even inspirational, teacher.

[laundry_queen]

368. Your post made me smile. Those kids are very lucky to have you. nt

[appleannie1]

319. Does this mean you can bruise a child as long as bruising was not "your intent"? Under that line

of thinking it is ok to shoot someone as long as you don't intend on killing them. Or hold them under water as long as you don't intend to drown them. IMO that line of thinking is beyond lame.

[appleannie1]

321. My adult children tell me the worse thing I ever did to them was make them sit together in a chair,

noses touching and arms around each other saying "I love you and I am sorry I hit you" "I love you and I am sorry I hit you" for over a half hour. It ended physical fights in this house forever. And they never forgot it.

[kwassa]

333. Corporal punishment is not prevented in schools in many states, either.

what do you think the red in this map means?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States.svg

[pnwmom]

341. And that is part of the problem, I agree. n/t

[gopiscrap]

346. I would pull my kids out of a school that practiced corporal punishment on them

I had that happen to me all the time in the fucking private Catholic school my parents sent me too.

[pnwmom]

349. In earlier generations it probably happened in most schools.

Like you, I wouldn't allow my kids to stay in a school that did this.

[gopiscrap]

353. It hapened to me all the time

I was in a strict Catholic school and they would take you into the principals office, bare your bottom and then paddle you. I was adhd (before there was a diagnosis for it) and got it all the time. I hated that school.

[pnwmom]

386. I don't blame you for hating that school. Of course you did. n/t

[gopiscrap]

389. Once I go to my foster home and was put into a

public high school, I loved it. I gotta say though, I learned way more than the public schoolers did. I breezed through 10, 11 and 12th grades

[pnwmom]

343. Parents, if what you're doing to your child in the name of "discipline" could be a scene

from Fifty Shades, then it's physical and sexual abuse.

This Court made a horrible decision; the girl now knows that no one can protect her.



http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/documents/H038241.PDF

stated that her butt is very sore today and her friends asked what was wrong and she talked to them what happen , even though her parents told her to never tell anyone about the spanking. started to cry and said she was scared of causing more trouble for herself.” According to the social worker, Daughter attributed statements to Mother that “she needs to smack her with a spoon so it will hurt more.” Daughter also supposedly reported that when receiving the spanking, “she had to remove her clothes and bend over the bed.”5 Daughter reportedly “stated she is scared of and knows she needs to be good to avoid getting a smack, but sometimes she has a hard time.” The social worker also reported that Daughter “asked if she could stay her paternal grandmother tonight because she was scared to go home,” and that Daughter “ha thought about staying with her paternal grandmother because she seems to get along better with her and things are not so scary.”6

[Hippo_Tron]

356. Spanking a 12 year old is fucking ridiculous, wooden spoon or no wooden spoon

I think there's maybe some justification to spank a child if they're very young and doing something dangerous, like trying to stick a fork into an electric socket, but not old enough to understand that it's dangerous.

But if you're spanking a 12 year old, you're not just slapping them on the wrist and telling them "don't do that". You're inflicting serious pain on them in hopes of correcting bad behavior. It's abusive and it's wrong.

[steve2470]

367. agreed about the 12 year old nt

[steve2470]

366. spanking is just a bad idea, period

I always come to these threads late lol....so I won't reiterate what everyone else has said. I just offer my own personal testimony. My dad was born in the south, in 1917, when pretty much everyone did corporal discipline. I was spanked until I was 12 (too late imho). The spanking just taught me to be afraid of my dad and not be close to him. I can forgive him for it, because he was from that era in the south.

You want your kids to cooperate with you, and they do so because they love you and trust you. If kids love you, trust you, and understand (as much as they can at their age) why you want their behavior to be positive, usually they will cooperate. Spanking goes against the feeling of love, of trust, of cooperation. It is pure physical domination and intimidation. Pure authoritarianism.

I've never spanked my son, and he is turning out wonderfully. Granted, he is what child psychologists call "an easy child", but he has always responded well to a rational explanation of good behavior and corrective non-abusive discipline. I don't hold out any hope that any minds will be changed by this thread. Pro-corporal discipline parents/adults cling to the parental precedent/"I turned out OK" argument at all costs.

[In_The_Wind]

372. In New York, hitting a child with a wooden spoon was child abuse when I was an investigator.

[MoonRiver]

379. Let's face it, a child is an easy target for pent up anger, possibly spanning a lifetime.

That is why I despise any type of corporal punishment. Once it starts, the escalation can easily get out of control, because of parents' personal issues.

[LittleBlue]

381. My mom dragged me to the bathroom and washed out my mouth

with soap when I cursed. My sister was dragged by her hair to the same fate. Neither of my parent beat me, they used other methods of psychological punishment.

I wouldn't use it myself as it seems wrong. The court may have got it right, though. When I got out of hand, my parents would say the neighbors might call CPS. That scared the life out me, and I behaved. If my parents had been prosecuted for disciplining me for my outburst, it would have caused me a lot of guilt. Separating families can cause huge psychological trauma for children. I think the girl's opinion should be taken into account, discounting it was completely wrong.

[pnwmom]

387. Are you saying that the court got it right when they said

that forcing a 12 year old to disrobe and lie across a bed for a paddling with a wooden spoon that left bruises that could be photographed the next day might be "reasonable" discipline?

[LittleBlue]

392. I don't agree with corporal punishment personally

but at the same time, I don't know the law or how it's administered, or even whether CPS followed correct procedure. Without knowing, I wouldn't feel comfortable proclaiming the court wrong.

Regardless, the court appears to send the case back to the lower court with instructions to take extra evidence into consideration. If indeed they disregarded relevant testimony, that needs to be considered in a new ruling.

[msanthrope]

411. But that isn't what the court said. Not even close. Incorrectly stating what the court

said doesn't help your argument.

[pnwmom]

428. What the court said, according to you:

"The lower court (and CPS) failed to give sufficient weight to the 'right of a parent to impose reasonable discipline on his or her child.'"

The logical inference is that the "discipline" described by this child might be "reasonable."

[msanthrope]

435. No--that's not even close to the "logical inference." The appellate court isn't saying what is

reasonable, only that the CPS and the lower court must make that determination---in effect, they must make a judgment call based on the law and the facts, and 'show their work,' as opposed to proceeding a priori. Further, the determination to disallow the minor from testifying was abuse of discretion.

This entire thread, you've apparently misunderstood what the court is saying. I think it would have helped your argument to have actually argued the law.

[Buddyblazon]

455. I'm pretty liberal and my wife is uber liberal...

She has always believed that spanking a child was wrong...

until that is....

She went and started working at a group home for troubled teenagers. She worked there for nearly a decade.

And while she would never spank one of those kids at that job, her opinion did change.

"A complete and utter lack of discipline. Many of those kids need a good spanking.".

I was raised by a conservative and a liberal. Both believed in spanking. The spankings were used sparingly and only when we really messed up. Both my sister and I turned out just fine and not for one second would I call the spankings we received "child abuse".

That term "child abuse" gets thrown around too much. I think it's absurd to move a child out of a stable environment where the occasional spanking occurs to have them placed in foster care where things WAY nastier (ask my wife....she'll give you some horror stories about foster care that will make your toes curl) than spanking happen on a regular basis.

[kcr]

457. So much wrong with your post

Lets start with the false premise that the only remedy is removing children from the home and placing them in foster care. Who says that's the only solution? Counseling is another, for one thing.

Number two. How does your wife know that those teens weren't spanked? Odds are they were. That was probably part of the problem.

Number three. The I turned out fine premise. Just because you turned out fine doesn't mean spanking is okay, or that it isn't harmful. Plenty of people experience harmful things in their lives and turn out okay in spite of them.

So you're pretty liberal and your wife is uber liberal. Good for you. You're still wrong. Lots of data says so.

[Buddyblazon]

466. No..

When the authorities get called for child abuse, do you think that all that happens is counseling? Because generally when there is a call for child abuse the children are removed from the household.

Number two...

The vast majority WEREN'T spanked. They were either beaten horribly...or ignored completely. There was zero normal discipline in their lives. She knows because she had to go through every single ones of their case packets. She had to counsel them. She did this for a decade. In this case, she absolutely knows exponentially more than you about the kids she had to deal with.

Number three...

I was spanked maybe a half dozen times in my childhood. And you better believe that after it was over I was well aware that what I did was very bad. The reason I was only spanked a half dozen times is because I learned that lesson immediately and I never did whatever prompted the spanking in the first place.

The fact of the matter is what those kids lacked in my wife's group home was that they were NEVER disciplined as children. Nobody cared about them. Once they've gone into their teenage years, many of them had learned to deal with being upset by attacking people and/or breaking things. My wife was punched in the face a dozen or more times. She was threatened with death 1000's of times. She was attacked with scissors, knives, anything that could do bodily harm on many occasions.

Of course at that age, it becomes darn close to impossible to get them to respond any differently regardless of the years of counseling they got. They had one of the highest success rates in the state and they were still only around 10-15% success rate.

Spanking is not child abuse. Beating a child is child abuse. Berating a child continually is child abuse. A quick swat to the backside is simply checking a childs ego.

[laundry_queen]

478. Listen to yourself.

You think because those kids weren't spanked THAT is why they act the way they do. And in the next breath you say,

Nobody cared about them.

helloooooooo.

And then, "...many of them had learned to deal with being upset by attacking people and/or breaking things."

Where do you think they learned that? Could it be because they witnessed violence or suffered violence themselves?

Note: Hitting is a violent action. 'Spanking' is hitting. All 'spanking' does is teach might makes right. Or that "if I'm bigger and badder than you I can make you do what *I* want you to do."

I'll tell you what: those kids are teens and may be lost, but a young child who is shown unconditional love and has reasonable boundaries (consistently enforced, SANS spanking) generally doesn't become a violent teen in a group home unless there is some underlying brain or mental health issue. And spanking, while maybe not turning children into violent offenders if the parents doing the spanking are generally loving, it still detrimental. WHY oh WHY would someone want to spank if they KNOW it MIGHT be detrimental? If you found out feeding your pre-schooler applesauce MIGHT cause them to be more violent than they otherwise would be, would YOU feed it to your child? WHY NOT try something else?

I just don't get your attitude. It's lazy parenting IMO. And I'm sad that's what your wife thinks about those kids.

[Buddyblazon]

482. Where'd they did they learn that?

Well...most were violently raped at some point and all were either physically abused are received zero attention whatsoever.

And I'm listening to myself. I listen to myself all the time.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

But go ahead and smash your head against the wall. I don't think spanking is child abuse. Nor have I ever. Nor will I ever.

And you're right. Children will respond to love and reasonable boundaries. That doesn't mean that parents that spank their kids don't love their children any less or show their kids any less love. Those group home kids were never given love nor were they ever taught reasonable boundaries. The group home kids that had the best success rates were the ones screaming for discipline and received it well.

[trumad]

522. You hit a child you're a fucking coward.

[Buddyblazon]

531. Spanking and beating a child are not the same thing...

I have to say, after all these years trumad, I'm a little disappointed in such an un-analytical post from you.

Because the one above is purely emotional.

[trumad]

533. You hit a child---you're a fucking coward.

[trumad]

521. Well good...

How about if I stand around you during the day and slap you upside the head. you know---just to check your ego.

[Buddyblazon]

538. Where did I ever say smacking around a kid was okay?

I didn't. Spanking is not smacking a kid in the head...unless perhaps his head is up his ass.

Now you're just trying to goad. Just stop. I've had deep respect for you for years. Don't ruin that. If you don't agree, that's fine. But don't throw a tantrum. It's extremely unbecoming.

[trumad]

541. you hit a kid you're a coward.

[Buddyblazon]

543. You know I've been thinking about..

What you said. And how would spanking a child make someone a coward.

I could see how people that didn't agree with spanking could call someone who did lots of names. But using the word "coward" doesn't even make sense.

Explain yourself.

[trumad]

544. I live how folks gussy up the word spanking...

to make it sound oh so gentle.

You are hitting a defenseless child. You are taking your hand and hurting a defenseless child.

You sir are a fucking coward.

[Buddyblazon]

545. Yeah yeah yeah...

That's not what I asked. I'll try again and see if you can simply answer the question:

How is spanking a child cowardly?

[trumad]

546. Again--

You are using your hand to hurt a defenseless child.

Correct?

[Buddyblazon]

547. Don't turn a question into a question...

Just answer the question I asked you:

How does spanking a child make a person a "coward"?

I can understand someone that doesn't agree with spanking seeing someone that does as a lot of things. But I don't think coward would be one of them.

Was that you just using a word for dramatic effect? If you can't answer the question, perhaps well just have to surmise.

So, do you think you can answer the question on this third try?

[trumad]

548. The question I asked becomes the answer if you answer it honestly

An adult hitting a defenseless child and hurting that defenseless child is a God Damn coward.

Have you hit and hurt defenseless child with your hand?

If you say yes to that---well---you already have---you are hitting and hurting human being who can not defend themselves.

You sir are a coward

[Buddyblazon]

549. Actually...no ...

Don't have children so I haven't had to spank one.

Aside from that I noticed you never answered the question. After all these years, Trumad, you're one of the last I would have expected to be hysterical light weight that would use Tea Party tactics.

I asked you why the word coward. You are incapable of answering. You won't say it. Instead you just fiddle fart out some excuses.

You are all hat and no cattle.

Well I suppose just like any other Tea a Party brained individual, conversing with you won't go very far because it's beyond your capabilities.

Have a day.

[kcr]

534. So

"The vast majority WEREN'T spanked. They were either beaten horribly...or ignored completely. There was zero normal discipline in their lives. She knows because she had to go through every single ones of their case packets. She had to counsel them. She did this for a decade. In this case, she absolutely knows exponentially more than you about the kids she had to deal with. "

The remedy to that would be more hitting, in the form of spanking? That makes no sense. And it certainly isn't evidence of no spanking leads to troubled teens. It seems to me it's those other issues you mentioned. So why is your wife suddenly pro-spanking because of her exposure to them? Illogical.

[Buddyblazon]

539. Because they're screaming for discipline.

And beating a child is not spanking...

x's infinity...

since I seem to have to say it repeatedly.

If you don't agree with me, okay. No skin off my teeth. But I'll say it again, I have never viewed spanking as child abuse and I never will.

I truly believe that the lack of spanking is what gives us Generation Y and their social ego centrism. Their lack of empathy. Their belief they are owed something. "Oh, Ashley just stole that toy from that child and hit him over the head. We should give him a timeout.".

That's not punishment. That's vacation.

[DissidentVoice]

461. My stepfather never hit me, but my stepmother DID

Why?

He never needed to.

He came into my life when I was 7 years old. From Day One he made it clear to me that he meant what he said, and said what he meant.

Example: If he set my curfew at 10.00 PM, he did not mean 12.01. I got grounded by him a couple of times and with as restrictive as his grounding was, it'd almost be easier if he did hit me!

When I was pushing the envelope with him, all he had to do was fold down the newspaper he was reading, glare at me over his glasses and say "KNOCK...IT...OFF," and I knew it was time to back off.

He died in 2005. I miss him so much.

However, my birth father (alcoholic himself) remarried about a year before my mother married my stepfather.

My stepmother did hit me, severely and often (my "father" didn't mind doing things like jerking my arm almost out of its socket, either), once nearly killing me at age 6. She got by with it because child abuse laws in arse-backward Indiana in the 1970s were very much "spare the rod, spoil the child."

The result of that? PTSD that went undiagnosed for years.

She's still living, as far as I know, but I won't shed any tears when she finally leaves this earth.

There is no good reason to hit a child, with a spoon or otherwise.

[MFM008]

476. i thought it was the norm

i grew up in the 60s, very much in fear of my mom. i thought everyone had bad welts from a belt on their arms. I always wore long sleeves. It s taken intense counseling to forgive. nearly 50 years worth. I tried very hard to make sure it didnt happen to my kid.
It is a terribly helpless,angry feeling to experiance.

[cali]

516. I so feel like self-deleting this shit thread. sorry I posted it.

[JonLP24]

540. I remember I got marks from a spanking from my uncle

Can't remember what I did wrong.