There must be no reward for extortion. I'd let the country default if the GOP won't give in.

[backscatter712]

Sorry. Yes, I know a government default would suck.

But allowing GOP extortion to continue to undermine democracy would suck even worse.

So I'm game for a war. I'm ready to play Russian Roulette with the Republicans.

I'm sorry if there are going to be casualties, but I'm willing to live with the casualties.

We must not give in to GOP extortion. To do so would ensure our country will continue to drift to the right, to more deprivation of the poor, to the destruction of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, schools, worker rights, minority rights, women's rights GLBT rights. The Affordable Care Act will be picked apart piece by piece.

So, sorry. I won't support giving the rethugs the slightest concession. They must get nothing. They must be completely humiliated. If that means the nation defaults, so be it.

In my view, this is a fight to the death, and we can only win this fight if we're willing to risk death. It's worth it.

[beachbum bob]

1. totally agree

We are in our fight with those who seek to destroy democracy

[BlueCaliDem]

2. I don't think it will come to that. The Koch Bros rely on Wall Street for their exuberant wealth,

and any default will hurt their bottom line.

But should push come to shove, I agree with you. We cannot allow a tiny cadre of political terrorists to force their views on this country.

I suspect, though, that the GOP will buckle and give in. Their money-masters will DEMAND it and they only listen to them.

[allinthegame]

64. If Only

The stock market would have one huge crashing day everyone would get on the train to resolve. Wall Street is SO sure that we would never default the market is not a jittery as it should be. This just feeds into the the dreams of the Koch Brothers types...no harm...stay closed.

[Rebellious Republican]

71. +1000

[GeorgeGist]

75. Koch Industries is privately held ...

so they probably aren't reliant on Wall St. for their wealth.

[BlueCaliDem]

86. True. But what of Koch Industries' subsidiaries?

Or corporations that do business with one or more Koch companies?

They have an expansive web of subsidiaries and do business with, for example, Apple Inc. (via Molex which they paid $7.2 billion for), and Apple is publicly traded and can suffer negatively should Wall Street suffer.

Not even the omnipotent privately held Koch Industries will be left unaffected should Wall Street suffer.

[Turbineguy]

3. I wonder if there is some sort of law or special ops force

to go in and do a Luca Brasi on the repubs.

[hooverville29]

4. In kidnapping, if police feel kidnapper will harm a child, they'll say pay him--then we'll get'em

Police don't just volunteer a child's life or safety just on principle. Problem here is just how much harm will be done if the kidnapper isn't given his ransom, or enough to keep him from truly harming someone. It's easy to speechify about others bearing hardship for the 'common good' but the issue often is how many are included in the 'others' and how much harm will be done.

Gotta watch it a little. If a policeman's stubborn, aggressive manner leads to a kidnapper harming a child, then that child's family could well have *two* people they hate, not just one. That kind of stuff can turn around and bite you.

[backscatter712]

5. If the Dems cave, they lose all their leverage.

There is no "Pay him, then we'll get him." We'll lose our ability to get them.

Now, with the default looming, with the President brandishing the veto pen, and the GOP's poll numbers at record lows, is when we have leverage.

That means we need to be willing to shoot through the hostage to hit the terrorist.

[hooverville29]

9. Sure we can get'em. They call it an election like in 2014. Be careful about who's on the hate list

We're not droning our fellow citizens here. The proper analogy is a domestic US police force dealing with a kidnapper, not international terrorism.

[backscatter712]

11. If Obama caves, we'll lose the 2014 election.

This is bitchslap politics, and one side or the other in this fight is guaranteed to get a bitchslap.

Whichever side flinches and caves will be completely humiliated, and probably won't recover in time for the election.

Better them than us.

[hooverville29]

33. The "bitchslap," as you put it, will come for *everybody* those hurt feel are responible.

Don't expect those hurt to feel any need to be fair or hear anybody's rationale. They'll just remember pain and pay back. We'll see how that works out.

[backscatter712]

36. If the government defaults, the GOP gets blamed.

They're the ones with polls at record lows. I think most of the nation knows which side's extorting and which side's standing up to extortion.

[Squinch]

46. The polls seem to indicate that those hurt are fully aware of who is to blame for this

problem. And yes, they'll remember the pain and pay back.

And yes, let's see how that works out.

[hooverville29]

50. That's before the SS, Student, Ag support, etc., checks stop coming. You and I both know when

the chaos start, the 'polls' are going to show 'a plague on both your houses.'

This is all hypothetical now. Let's wait until real wolves starts beating and clawing on people's doors. Oh, they'll blame Republicans, all right ------------- along with anyone else who happens to be standing around.
Polls then will be the real polls, not now.

[Squinch]

52. I seriously doubt that. If we know who is responsible, we know who is responsible.

The voters will have to make a choice between the parties. They will remember what they know.

[LiberalLoner]

76. +1, we all know who is responsible.

[Squinch]

77. Almost seems like some here want us to believe we don't know what we know, doesn't it?

[Squinch]

44. Republicans are, in a way, droning fellow citizens. When they cut off people's access

to sufficient food, I'd say that's pretty much a violent act against citizens.

And that analogy to a kidnapper only goes so far. We have the right to expect that our elected officials will not act in a manner that will destroy the government. The Republicans are the only ones who can stop the catastrophe, because Republicans are the only ones who are causing the catastrophe. The idea that there is some compromise from the Democrats that will fix things is ridiculous, and flies in the face of all logic and experience.

[Squinch]

40. First, this isn't a child. Second, it's true that police don't volunteer the child's

safety on principle, and the Democrats would not be doing that if they held fast. If the Democrats give in, the ransom - to extend the analogy - would be higher the next time.

No one is speechifying. And none on this side is doing any damage. Only one side can decide to stop doing damage. That would be the side that is doing the damage.

A compromise at this point would be catastrophic.

[starroute]

65. But in this case, the kidnapper isn't willing to release the hostage

And they're not asking for money. It's more like, "Kill your grandma and the kid gets to live for a few months longer. By then, we'll have figured out someone else for you to kill."

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

7. "I'm willing to live with the casualties."

I'm sure they will be happy to hear that.

Unless you are in the 99% you most likely will be one of the casualties.

[backscatter712]

8. There is no victory without risk. n/t

[hooverville29]

10. Nice to offer your fellow citizens up for risk.

[backscatter712]

13. I'm sorry, I can't hear your over my refusal to give a fuck.

We win this one by any means necessary.

[hooverville29]

27. And that attitude is *exactly* what could snatch defeat from the jaws of victory --

Not giving a fuck, as you put it, for the real-life pain of others because of ideology is one of surer ways to turn those others against your ideology.

[annabanana]

32. so my husband, federal pensioner,

Currently inpatient in a coronary care unit, while I struggle with his son's psych meds should lose his only means of support?

Nice to know you don't give a fuck

[Sheldon Cooper]

12. And just what will YOU be giving up?

Please tell us the immediate sacrifices you'll be required to make. In detail, if you would.

[backscatter712]

14. Plenty - I'm subsisting on student loans, which I'd probably lose.

As they say in poker, I'm all in.

[Sheldon Cooper]

15. You'd 'probably' lose?

You're not sure? When will you lose them? Next week? Next month? Next semester? I have a friend who may very well lose his home if he doesn't get his SS check on Oct 23. Twelve days from now. What date are you going under?

[backscatter712]

17. So you'd rather chicken out?

And guarantee rule by oligarchic extortion instead of democracy?

Let's suppose your friend gets his check tomorrow. He'll lose it later. The GOP is absolutely demonically determined to kill Social Security, and if they get to rule by extortion, they'll get their way.

So sorry. We'll clean the mess after the GOP's left in a bloody mess after the fight's over. I have no intention of standing down.

[Sheldon Cooper]

19. Nice deflection. You won't answer my question, will you?

Really, it's a simple question. How soon will you, personally, go under?

[backscatter712]

20. A matter of months.

Maybe I'd be able to ride out the current semester, but there'd be no loans for the spring.

Which means I'd have to get a job if I wanted to be able to pay rent. Except the economy would be in a tailspin to a depression, so I wouldn't be able to find work either.

Yeah, I'd be right fucked.

But so be it, I know I'm fucked anyways if we continue to cave in to GOP extortion. What the rethugs don't take by extortion tomorrow they'll get next week. How are my long term job prospects? Not good if the GOP continues to keep the government in sequester and keep sabotaging the economy.

So I'm willing to fight on this, even if it means risking everything. How about you?

[ScreamingMeemie]

22. No, I am not. I have a son. We collect SS Survivors benefits...

I am not willing to lose my home, my life...more importantly HIS life...for you. Sorry. But, no.

[backscatter712]

23. If you're not willing to stand and fight, you're going to lose.

They'll take it all from you bit by bit.

And you'll lose everything.

The GOP wants a country of slaves.

[ScreamingMeemie]

25. That's a risk, as a parent responsible for someone OTHER than myself...and you,

that I have to take.


I am sorry, but the four walls in which I raise my child will ALWAYS supercede anyone/anything else.


No other options.

[Sheldon Cooper]

28. You have the luxury of a few months.

Many do not. It's nice that you can sacrifice them while you still have a home, and food, and etc. You're a regular Che Guevara. Fight on, brave warrior.

[ScreamingMeemie]

29. Thank you Sheldon.

People should always, always come first...before politics.

[historylovr]

85. Yep. I remember the tax cut deal a few years ago

and how it was such a good deal that Obama conceded to the Republicans on that in exchange for unemployment checks to continue. But now those of us who rely on social security, or in our case that federal pay check, can go starve for the greater good. Nice.

[hooverville29]

31. There are no rules or precedent for the chaos looming. His anxiety is because he just doesn't know

Read the posts from SS recipients here on DU. This is real-life anxiety. It's wandering off into a swamp where we've never been before. *NOBODY* -- Repub *or Dem* -- who's standing around when this happens should expect to be rewarded for it, fair or not.

[LostOne4Ever]

16. I think you are looking at it the wrong way

If we capitulate to the republicans in ANY way they will think this strategy works and will do it over and over and over again. By not rewarding extortion we are preventing coutless future defaults and government shutdowns.

By refusing to capitulate to them, we are not letting the country default; but, rather, we are PREVENTING future defaults.

There will be far more casualties if we give in, then if we stand firm.

The republicans are the ones who brought this on. It is their actions that are going to default the US. We have nothing to apologize for and are not in the slightest responsible for the casualties brought on by the Republicans. THEY are the ones who wanted this, and they are the ones who should be apologizing.

ALL blame falls squarely on their shoulders should we default. Just as all blame falls on them for the shutdown.

However, if we give in to the republicans, then we WILL bear a part of the responsibility for future shutdowns and defaults by encouraging them to do this AGAIN AND AGAIN.

We MUST NOT GIVE AN INCH ON THIS or we will pay for the consequence for DECADES. THEY FUCKING LOST the election. THE ONLY REASON they even have the house is because of gerrimandering. THE LOSING PARTY DOES NOT GET TO DICTATE OUR POLICY!!!

Don't ever say your sorry on this, because you are standing on the CORRECT side of the argument and standing for prinicple. No apologies and no compromise.

[backscatter712]

18. Exactly. NOT ONE INCH!

If we flinch, we lose. We'll see the rethugs keep taking more hostages.

[Squinch]

48. ^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^

If they get anything in return for this treasonous behavior, they will escalate it next time.

I agree. We cannot give in on this. They need to understand that this tactic cannot work.

[dgibby]

57. Precisely why we find ourselves in this mess now.

If we capitulate to the republicans in ANY way......".

Time and time again, Dems have given to GOP demands (and no, I am not blaming Pres. Obama). We have "trained" the repubs to believe that if they just hold their breath or roll on the floor having the mother of all temper tantrums, the Dems will eventually give them what they want again. If they are going to act like unruly children, it's time for us to treat them as such, and start by relagating them to the "time out" chair, not reward them for bad behavior.

[Lifelong Dem]

21. I agree

They will have gone over the edge if defaulted. Which puts the country over the edge. Which WILL NOT be a pretty sight.

[Zorra]

24. I'm hoping for a last second EO from the prez, if it comes to that. nt

[DonCoquixote]

53. the problem is

That eo will be beat in the Scotus.

[LostOne4Ever]

59. Probably

But if it gives people some relief, even if only temporarily, without giving in to the Republicans; it would be worth it.

We are the side fighting for the people. We should do whatever we can, without giving in to their extortion, to help the people however we can.

[texanwitch]

26. It will hurt if we go into default but it will hurt more if we give in.

The teabaggers and republicans in general will only take away everything anyway.

No social programs left.

Just maybe something better will come out of this.

I can hope.

Might want to buy some rice and beans.

No joke.

Learn to make a big pot of soup.

I hate republicans more and more.

I won't even speak to the few republicans I know anymore.

[ScreamingMeemie]

30. It will not hurt... It will kill.

[texanwitch]

34. Either way the american people will be hurt.

I will never understand the hate that republicans have for this country..

What will be will be.

[ScreamingMeemie]

39. I was clarifying. Hurt/pain is too light of a word.

We go over the edge, and I lose everything.

[texanwitch]

45. Well, my house is paid for.

I grew up hearing stories about the great depression in the 30's.

The fools who voted republicans go with us.

Just a handful of hate filled people will destroy everything.

[ScreamingMeemie]

47. Well, I'm happy for you. It costs money to feed and clothe kids.

Let us think of all of us and realize that some will not merely feel "pain" or "hurt." Some will very like be destroyed. Those with no other options, in mental crisis, can make horrible snap decisions. It will be far worse than "pain."

[texanwitch]

49. I was making a joke about the house.

I understand what will happen.

It will be very bad for alot of people.

No matter if the Democrats give in, it will happen over and over.

There will be nothing left anyway if a few years.

Thanks to the republicans we will be going down a really bad road.

The republicans will destroy everything good about this country.

I know people in nursing homes, very frail people.

They are on medicare and medicate.

They won't live long at home.

Kids will go without food.

There is no good way out of this.

[ScreamingMeemie]

51. Agreed.

Sorry. I got myself a bit wound out there.

[texanwitch]

56. That's ok.

We are all worried.

I am glad my house is paid off.

I can take some people in.

I just hope some pressure is put on the republicans to grow up.

Peace.

[backscatter712]

35. And the GOP won't?

The GOP's made it plainly clear that they're willing to let 45,000 people die every year rather than let that eeeeeeeevil Obamacare bring some relief to them.

[ScreamingMeemie]

37. You've made it clear that you're willing to sacrifice many of us on SS

for your will...

...because you have the luxury of a few months.

And that's all I'm going to say about that.

[backscatter712]

38. Because if we cave in to extortion, we'll be just as dead.

The only difference is that it'll take slightly longer.

[ScreamingMeemie]

41. ...and that's all I'm going to say about that.

Thank you for not caring about others...because you have the luxury of a few months. That will be my response to you if you continue this line.

No, I will not sacrifice my son for you.

[KansDem]

80. "I won't even speak to the few republicans I know anymore."

I do the same.

I work with a TeaBagger. I used to be polite when she began spouting off FOX News talking-points. I usually didn't respond to her bullshit.

Not anymore...

I counter everything she says with THE FACTS. And I politely tell her she's wrong. We'll go back and forth until finally she says, "Well, both sides/parties are doing it." That's how they end a "discussion" when they know they're losing. And I'll go one further and say, "Oh, really? What Dem wants to ________?" (Insert wacko Repub plan or action that's Repubs say Dems are doing too).

I ask her for specifics which she can't provide. That ends the conversation.

[B Calm]

42. Totally agree and I have a lot to lose in my retirement fund!

[bobGandolf]

43. Agree! n/t

[Snake Plissken]

54. This is about appeasement, something Right Wingers are good at whining about

and better at looking for,


this is just for the lulz

[MyNameGoesHere]

55. I would agree IF

it meant the total and complete destruction of the GOP and teaparty. If not then the price is not worth it.

[backscatter712]

58. It very well might.

If the GOP's forced to cave, the teabaggers will form a third party, and they'll be in disarray for at least a decade!

[Fantastic Anarchist]

60. I hate being forced to agree with this post.

But, sadly, I do. It will be rough on some people, but if the GOP smells blood, they'll never quit. They need to be put to sleep as quickly as possible.

[backscatter712]

61. Exactly.

As rough as it's going to be on people, the GOP cannot be rewarded for extortion or hostage-taking. If we cave, they'll fuck us all.

This time, we need to utterly crush them.

[RebelOne]

62. No way as I would be one of the casualties. n/t

[MFrohike]

63. Uh

I disagree. If the rules of the game as written don't favor you, change them. There's a solid constitutional argument that the debt ceiling law, from 1917, is invalid because it conflicts with the 1974 Budget Act. Given that there is a very solid legal argument to be made, why risk default at all?

I don't see the point in playing chicken over this issue. Take away their car and get ready for the next invented crisis.

[B Calm]

66. Right wingers are counting on the Democrats giving in to their demands!

[backscatter712]

68. That's right.

I think that the only way to get through to the GOP is to show them that when we're pushed against the wall, we'll be just as crazy as they are, all the way to being a credible threat of mutually assured destruction.

[AngryOldDem]

67. I have to agree.

Obama should let them fully own what they've done.

Some of these tools in the GOP need to learn a hard lesson that actions have consequences.

If I were Obama, patience for negotiating has just run out. Put a take-it-or-leave-it deal on the table.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

69. These idiots don't SEE it that way....

They believe "raising the debt ceiling" is giving Obama more welfare for black people.

[Half-Century Man]

70. I am the bottom rung

My family and I live on the bottom. We have lost everything, our home, my health, our savings; due to heavy metal/ or benzine poisoning I received at some point in 25+ years in industry. Leukemia wrecked my body, cost me my teeth. Things we spent half our lives gathering were gone in a year. We live on food stamps, section 8, and food pantries. Disability is our only income. And I say.

STAND FIRM.

We win this fight or loose all the future ones.

[1monster]

72. Then start donating to the food banks and other places that help those in serious need.

Things are going to get really bad for those who already have nothing.

[Flying Squirrel]

73. Freedom isn't free.

Weird that this normally RW nutjob bumper sticker saying applies so well to this situation.

[99Forever]

74. Spot on.

No capitulation. Period.

[dballance]

78. Totally Agree - We set a bad precedent in 2011

Obama realizes he made a mistake in 2011. Now he's doing the proper thing.

[fredamae]

79. I began Screaming at Dems

in 2010 after the first little incident - "Go Toe to Toe Now-Don't let them get control/If you do it once WE'LL be Harmed".

And I Cannot believe I'm the only one who did so.
I believe that Deaf Ear response from Dems played an important role in the anger on the left during the 2010 election cycle. They stayed home.

Dems didn't listen to their base, either by plan or ignorance, in the same way-you can't see that which is before your own eyes-kinda thing...
It appears "they" may be paying attention now--but is it too late?

[maryellen99]

81. and the average american has no idea what's coming nt

They care more about reality tv and their iPhones

[99Forever]

84. Speak for yourself.

I know almost no one that isn't a teenager that fits that tired meme.

Guess what friend, MOST human beings are capable of having multiple facets to their lives. Perhaps you aren't, I couldn't say, but that clearly isn't the norm.

[AndrewRN]

82. Wish I had a time machine

so that I could show this country what a disaster it would be if the repubs got everything they ever wanted. Let them see what the future would be like in the conservative paradise!

[gulliver]

83. EgyptAir Flight 990

You can't fly a plane when one of the copilots is deliberately trying to crash it.