I'm from the south.
I spent most of my life there. When I was young my politics were as deep red fundamentalist Christian conservative as any youve ever seen. But then I reached, as Bill Maher says, the age of reason. I decided that the cultural attitudes and political ideology of my youth were wrong. It wasnt easy. There wasnt anybody around to support my decision. In fact, there was active resistance. It alienated friends and family. It affected every job I got thereafter. But I persisted, because I knew it was the right thing to do.
It was the right thing to do because I saw how people in the south got treated and how southerners treated each other. I saw workers of every race screwed over by corporations, lied to by religion and traumatized by education. At the same time I saw poor and middle class southerners of every race, creed, and sexual orientation quietly working together in peace to try and have a better life while getting screwed over at every turn.
After graduate school in the north I finally moved away from the south to an unabashedly liberal community and I have seen the same bigotry that gets blamed on the south every day. It comes from people who have had their liberalism handed to them on a silver platter. They have enjoyed the privilege of marinating in an ideology they didnt have to earn. For many of them, liberalism is little more than social plumage.
There is an especially dangerous and ugly kind of bigotry beneath the feathered plumage of ideological arrogance. Liberals, or progressives if you will, are supposed to support others and help them have a better life, not use them as a foil to prove the bona fides of their liberal ensemble. Behaving that way is dangerous because the obvious arrogance and bigotry of such an attitude makes it impossible to build a successful political coalition. If you behave that way not only will people not work with you, they will actively work against you. And there will always be somebody out there willing to exploit that division.
When ideology becomes an affectation it also becomes a product. The people that profit most from ideology as a product are the 1%, and they are selling us the tools of our own destruction. They pit us against each other by turning citizens into consumers. The result is the Morton Downey horse race culture war scrum that American politics has become. It's nobody else's job to tell us how right we are. It's up to us to prove that we can make what we believe work for them.
you're claiming that you see the same bigotry from liberal who grew up in a liberal environment as the kind you witnessed growing up in a fundy red environment, but you don't effectively make the case for your claim. And how the hell do you discern if someone is just a liberal poseur or believes what they say and how they vote? You keep referencing the behavior of these people as making it impossible to build a working coalition, but you don't go into what that behavior entails.
And what percent of liberals would you say fit into the category you're so irate about?
At least they don't vote for the crazy teathuglican fundies.
So maybe I just don't see that sort of liberalism/progressivism.
Then again, in Texas, I am so immersed in all the fundy BS that the OP mentioned. There are not enough liberals in my everyday life for me to see any extremism. Maybe I'm the extreme one?
I just can't relate to the OP. Perhaps it's mostly in certain geographies.
that it's pretty nonsensical.
What does it actually say? Many liberals are as bigoted as teathuglican fundies and they're also arrogant poseurs so no one wants to work with them or be associated with.
er, um, no.
Mines in the other room resting beautifully on its silver platter. I'll have one of the servants go fetch it for me.
I see posts condemning the South for things all the time...when the South is hardly the problem. It USED to be, but not any more.
I remember as far back as Bush Jr..... There was this post about some atrocity the Bushites had done that went something like; "Damn them! Rummy, Cheney Bush....Jesus Christ I'm sick of Southerners running things!" My reply was : "Rummy is from IL, Cheney is from WY, Bush is from CT, and Jesus Christ is from Galilee. None of the people you mentioned in your post are from the South."
There's a poster over on Rachel Maddow's blog who regularly condemns the South for anything the GOP does, and claims all of them are just Southerners who moved elsewhere, and talks about a "southern mentality" that has spread over the whole country.... as if stupidity and prejudice and privilege were just Southern things.
I know people who simply will not step over the Mason Dixon Line....and fear the South.... but they'll go to AZ and AK, no prob.
I understand exactly where this Op Ed is coming from. It may be talking about something ridiculous, but the Op Ed is not ridiculous.
initial post. Why don't you address those points?
I just posted some examples of liberals "as bigoted as teathuglican fundies and they're also arrogant poseurs"
Apparently you're too busy thinking you are all so wonderful you just didn't "get it". Perhaps?
You say: the South is hardly the problem. It USED to be, but not any more.
that is incorrect. the south sends almost all republicans to the House and Senate. Many of them are teathuglicans. That is a problem despite your claim that it is not.
You say: I remember as far back as Bush Jr..... There was this post about some atrocity the Bushites had done that went something like; "Damn them! Rummy, Cheney Bush....Jesus Christ I'm sick of Southerners running things!" My reply was : "Rummy is from IL, Cheney is from WY, Bush is from CT, and Jesus Christ is from Galilee. None of the people you mentioned in your post are from the South."
Um, OK, except for the fact that bush although born in CT grew up in Texas. And so what if Cheney and Bush aren't from the south, that has jack to do with the ops claims. I don't indulge in regional bashing myself, but the claim the op made was that many liberals are as bigoted as the fundy right wingers he grew up with. He/she provided not one bit of evidence for the claim.
You said: There's a poster over on Rachel Maddow's blog who regularly condemns the South for anything the GOP does, and claims all of them are just Southerners who moved elsewhere, and talks about a "southern mentality" that has spread over the whole country.... as if stupidity and prejudice and privilege were just Southern things.
What on earth do you think one blogger is evidence of?
ack. why am I even bothering. I'm big on critical thinking, fond of logic. sue me
I've driven all over this country. the only place I've ever felt scared was in Western Alabama
wishing that VT would get buried under a snow storm, and it's residents never to be seen again because of your legislature? No?
I didn't think so. I certainly see people wishing my state got blown off of the map despite the fact that I am a reliable liberal that votes, GOTV, and campaigns for Democrats. But yes, I should get blown off of the map and receive no federal money because some people in my state are asshats.
VT is a democratic state and has been for the last three elections.
So what's your point?
which is a website populated by DEMOCRATS you shouldn't see Dems ill-wishing on other Dems. Just wait for a hurricane to threaten the Gulf or SC/NC. You see a parade of folks on a Democratic website ill-wishing for other Democrats. That didn't happen with Sandy. That doesn't happen when Democratic states get hit with catastrophes.
And it's sad. I'm a liberal for heaven's sake. I don't ill-wish on other liberals no matter what state they live in.
in any case, your post wasn't responsive to my points.
I lived there a long time ago but from the voting habits, language and political choices of Southerners, I would say they haven't changed. Ugly and hateful as ever, the majority of them.
I condemn the South because it sends characters like Ted Cruz and Lindsay Graham, etc. to Congress.
I now live in California. The majority in California at this time is liberal and progressive, tolerant and enthusiastically implementing our Obamacare so that everyone can go to a family doctor.
So I have asked the author of the OP to give some examples of precisely the bigotry he sees among liberals, and then, I will know how to answer him.
And that's not bigotry? Everyone in the multi-state area that is the South is responsible? I didn't send them there.
Do you condemn all of the West for Chuck Grassley, Paul Ryan, Roy Blunt, Orin Hatch?
Ted Cruz is from TX...which many consider the South but I say cowboys and longhorns are the West, not the South. We ride English over here.
support for some of our electoral upsets has come from the South. I donated to the Elisabeth Warren and Alan Grayson campaigns this last cycle. My own Rep is the "evolution was sent from hell" guy, Paul Broun Jr. He ran unopposed so I donated to candidates in out-of-state races.
I also ordered a few pizzas to support the people fighting for collective bargaining in Wisconsin a couple years ago.
Don't be so quick to write off the South, there are a lot of good people here. And we're getting bluer every day with the changing demographics. I think this next election will surprise you.
and donated to Elizabeth Warren. That's Mississippi for those that don't know. Just so we could get a good Senator in office.
that state has over 80 hate groups. Yep, 80 hate Groups.
Yes, all states in the south have way way to many; but please get your own house in order.
State could fit in ONE COUNTY of my State... Tennessee... and we only have 33 hate groups.
As for rankings:
California - 82 groups
Texas - 62 groups
Florida - 59 groups
New Jersey - 51 groups
I had a few "South Bashers" pop their tops when I pointed this out a few years ago....
Peace within, Peace between, Peace among...
California has 38 million people and Tennessee has 6.5 million people.
Let me put it to you this way: I'm originally from Miami, Florida. When I was a teenager, we moved to the 4th smallest County in Tennessee. If memory serves correctly, in 1980 Miami was experiencing about 4 murders per DAY. Due to a family feud, our little town in Tennessee experienced 4 murders in ONE YEAR, but on a per capita basis, we had a higher murder rate than Miami, Florida.
A better way for you to refute my point would be to find out exactly *how many members* belong to each group, then see how it adds up, per capita. How many members does it take to make up a "hate group"? Remember the two guys arrested in Tenn. for plotting to assassinate Obama when he became the Nominee in 2008?
Were they a "hate group".... or just a couple of dumbasses??
Did Ted Nugent threatening the lives of Obama AND Hillary Clinton make him, and his "fan base" or "followers" a "hate group"?
By Elizabeth Goodman
August 24, 2007 1:20 PM ET
Renegade right-winger Ted Nugent recently went on a vicious onstage rant in which he threatened the lives of Democratic presidential candidates Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. Decked out in full-on camouflage hunting gear, Nugent wielded two machine guns while raging, "Obama, he's a piece of shit. I told him to suck on my machine gun. Hey Hillary," he continued. "You might want to ride one of these into the sunset, you worthless bitch." Nugent summed up his eloquent speech by screaming "freedom!"
Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/ted-nugent-threatens-to-kill-barack-obama-and-hillary-clinton-during-vicious-onstage-rant-20070824#ixzz2i2GORj3j
Yep.... 38 million people in California, Compared to 6.5 million in Tennessee.... I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that there's at least 3 times as many gang-bangers out there than there is here.
Show me some REAL NUMBERS, as opposed this "per capita" BS....
Thanks in advance,
Of course that is real numbers. You have to go by percentage or else you are comparing apples to oranges.
As to gang bangers, well that's a cultural and regional thing I believe. You'll find them more in urban areas. L.A. is an urban sprawl. Tennessee cities, not so much.
What then is precise per capita percentage from which, we may then extrapolate the attitude of an entire state for justifiable condemnation, and from what objective, peer-reviewed source is that base-line measured?
Else, it seems you are resting your entire premise on nothing more that fuzzy numbers, inconsistently applied...(which is I believe, a part and parcel of the mechanism of bigotry)
That map is very interesting on that site, indeed.
Hello, from a fellow Tennessean.
Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, and Jimmy Carter, not to mention a few Southern literary giants, but please proceed.
Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin. Do you likewise condem the North for these people?
You are-er, were, one of the people I most respected on DU. Thanks for revealing your true self. You've managed to cover well over the years. Never in a million years would I have guessed the utter disdain you feel for those living below the Mason-Dixon Line.
Have a good life there in your Utopia Maybe some of that liberalism will rub off on you if you stay there long enough. Obviously the rest of us (the ugly, hateful Southerners) are not worthy of your "tolerance". Do you even READ what you WRITE?
I'm still recovering from the trauma. I love history. My high school history class never left the "War Between the States." History ended right before the Union prevailed.
They did teach me English. Great authors, Faulkner and Mark Twain.
But science? No way. I was a girl. My biology teacher taught plant reproduction but not animal reproduction. No joke. She had a nervous breakdown in the middle of the year (or that's what we were told), and we never got to animal reproduction.
The most backward area of America.
I'm sorry if you live there or have lived there all your life, you don't have anything to compare it to. I'm really sorry about that. But the South I lived in was miserable and when I see the people it sends to Congress, I relive that misery.
It was traumatic. Really traumatic. An ugly place. If you have read The Help, I really think it was written about the other girls in my high school class.
I just suffered too much at the hands of the bigots I went to school with.
attended public schools that taught all the same subjects my cousins studied in Pa. and Ohio.
I went to nursing school here, then joined the Navy. Spent 22 years in the military, got selected for duty under instruction, received a BSN from George Mason University. I could never have been selected for DUINS or attended GMU without the public school education I received, which included math, science, chemistry, civics, English, Latin, and Spanish, History of the US, geography, etc. BTW, I'm also female. The only class closed to me at that time was Shop; however, my older brother took half a semester of shop classes and half a semester of home ec. They had separated those 2 classes by the time I was in H.S.
Because I already had my RN, I was able to challenge out of my Jr year of college (all the clinicals) and only needed to attend college for 3 years instead of the usual 4.
During the 22 years I was in the Navy, I lived in California, Puerto Rico, NC, SC, Va, and Fla., so you don't have to feel sorry for me (that's more than just a little condescending), and believe me, I have lots to compare to living in the South.
I chose to move back to my hometown after retiring as a Sr. officer (something else I wouldn't have been able to achieve without a good education). I love my little town, and have lots of family and friends here. Some are conservative, some are liberal, some are religious, some not so much. We're just like any other small town in the US. We have the good, the bad, and the ugly (and I'm not talking about physical appearance). When I was growing up here, we were segregated. Now we're not, and it's an even better place as a result. I love that my bi-racial family is accepted and safe here. I love that my gay friends from HS are now out of the closet and are not harassed.
Are we perfect? Of course not, far from it, but we certainly have made progress. We have a Dem state senator, and I'm hoping we'll be able to vote Morgan Griffin out of office sooner rather than later. In the meantime, I'm working as hard as I can to get Terry McAuliff elected Gov. because as much as I love it here, I just might be forced to move if that idiot Cuccinelli gets elected.
I believe you when you say you were traumatized and suffered, and I'm sorry that was your experience; however, that doesn't mean we're all like those people, and it's not fair to treat us like we are.
I lived a mile from the Hell's Angels when I was stationed in Oakland, and some of them enjoyed harassing people, but I don't think everyone who rides a motorcycle is a Hell's Angel. I was also robbed in Calif. Should I believe everyone in Calif. is a thief? I had a Chief Nurse in a duty station in SC who was from New England. She had severe personality/emotional problems and decided to take out all her anger on me, including accusing me of stealing from a patient. Of course, she couldn't prove it because it never happened, but that didn't keep her from trying. So, should I believe that everyone from N.E. is evil or insane? Hardly.
It's ludicrous to blame everyone from a certain geographical area for the actions of a few. It's galling to think that someone who purports to be progressive, liberal, and tolerant sees nothing wrong with that type of bigotry.
thank you from the bottom of my heart for working to elect him. I wish I had the opportunity to vote for him.
It's my pleasure. Was glad to see what Rachael had to say about the election tonight. She's really keeping a national spotlight on it, and she's not taking prisoners when it comes to Cuccinelli. LOL!
I am from Texas and have lived here all of my life. I have had the pleasure of meeting wonderful and caring people throughout my life in all areas of Texas. Yes, I am a native Austinite and we are a pretty blue area, but the nicest most compassionate people I have ever met were in West Texas.
You must have some sort of personality issue?
I lived in the South when I was young. It was an absolutely awful experience. Jim Crow signs. Separate water fountains. Used to travel from the north to the South to visit, and that brought more trauma. Even as a child, I was outraged at certain injustice and prejudice. And with very few exceptions, that is what I saw in the South.
And worst of all were those that apologized and compromised with the terrible prejudice of everyone around them. No one dared speak up and say, "This is absurd." No one showed a modicum of courage.
And the repression of women was nearly as bad as the repression of people of other races.
It was an amazing experience.
I understand there have been improvements, but when I see the Southerners in Congress, I think that a lot more change is needed, a lot more change.
I will give you an example of bigotry among liberals: you.
I assume you are claiming to be liberal.
"Ugly and hateful, the majority". Broad brush you're swinging there from a Utopia that doesn't really exist.
Here in California, we at least admit that our Republican districts are backward.
Alabama and South Carolina send their backward Republicans to Congress.
There are some Tea-baggers in the North, but the worst one is Ted Cruz from Texas -- who claims to be a Southerner.
governor's office of Alabama. Even the federal courts in that state are rotten to the core.
People move around a lot more, leading to dilution of regional identity. Can't we just go back to calling it reactionary racism? It's all over--last year someone burned a cross on the Olympic Peninsula, ferchrissakes!
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then proceeds to bash northern liberals too.
Don't know where the poster stands now must be a real liberal because he/she earned it?
OK, is that what it takes to discern the real ones from the poseurs?
it sounds like a conversion experience.
One can use deeply held beliefs as social plumage.
There's a reason cats are so hard to herd.
Liberals are human too, and subject to all the same foibles as anybody else. I don't think we're going to make it just squeaking by every election. I don't like Karl Rove "51%" politics. We need to win and win big. That means making serious inroads into the other sides constituency. But we won't do it if all they hear from us is "fuck you redneck".
If we want to win people to our side we need to come up with something more than "because, liberal". Orthodoxy ain't proof. All I'm doing here is posting a possible contributor to soft support for liberal ideology.
I moved away from the South into unabashedly liberal communities and I've never seen the same kind of hatred, ignorance and bigotry in the liberal communities as I saw in the South.
Certainly, there are people who wear their liberalism like plumage. But I find most liberals are sincerely concerned for others and do good works like volunteering and GOTV with pure motives.
I don't know where the OP person moved to find bigoted liberals.
but I know liberals here who bought hedge funds, flipped houses, and treat service personell like shit while driving a Prius and separating their organic garbage.
Do you really think only conservatives made money on a hopelessly inflated housing bubble? That only conservatives invest in "sin industries" like oil, big pharma and weapons?
Around here it's customary to schedule your housekeeper to be there every week but reserve the right to cancel them at the last minute (without pay) if you don't need them. Lots of people trade work for rent, otherwise known as sharecropping.
All you have to for is turn on a TV or a computer. There is a thriving industry devoted to telling liberals what they want to hear. How many times have you seen people right here refer to liberal celebrities referred to by their first names right here?
lambaste the MIC, bemoan global warming, and wail about health care while investing in those industries.
I can never be a liberal again? I don't have any control over the 401K. I think you are living in some kind of fantasy world.
dancers, carpenters, gardeners a few trust funders. There was no housing bubble at all here. Interesting there are several ethical and green investment advisors around these parts.
but more seriously, how does liberals investing in that stuff correlate with your claim that liberals are just as bigoted as the right wing fundies you talk about?
And what does people on DU referring to liberal celebrities by their first names have to do with anything?
There's no logic in your piece. I'm big on logic.
btw, I grew up in a the milieu you seem to be referring to, went to Simon's Rock which was full of well off liberal kids, so I think I get what I think you're trying to say. That brings us back to the 1%. I'll take wealthy liberals who believe that they should pay their fair share and vote that way over rich republicans any old day.
Unfortunately logic has very little to with it. Politics is really just another religion. And just like almost every religion its devotees have various motivations for their devotion. Most people mean well, some go along for the ride, and others leverage it for social advantage.
In fact, everybody exhibits some degree of all those motivations and no doubt more than I can name typing on a phone. That's where all those One True Scotsman fallacies come from.
The only difference between "Keith" and "Rush" is that Keith told me what I wanted to hear and lambasted Rush. They both make money and ratings telling people what they want to hear.
There are tons of fine people of every political persuasion. Sometimes when we see the how shallow our beliefs are, we can see through the "plumage" of others and find common ground.
for instance, you say that The only difference between "Keith" and "Rush" is that Keith told me what I wanted to hear and lambasted Rush. They both make money and ratings telling people what they want to hear.
I'm a firm believer that confirmation bias plays a huge part in what information we buy into, but your claim about rush and keith, doesn't hold up. that is not the only difference between them. rush espouses things like feminists are "feminazis". He espouses racism. His quotient of flat out lies is significantly higher than keith's.
Politics really is NOT "just another religion". What I believe is rooted largely in facts and history as well as in emotion.
I reject the themes you put forth.
Again, I'd like to ask you about your claim that many liberals are as bigoted as right wing fundamentalists. How so? Examples?
Sorry, but the "south vs north" aspect of this discussion has
spilled over into right vs left, for me.
IMO, a true Liberal is a Liberal, regardless of where they live or their income.
But somehow, in this thread, within the distracting framing of the "south vs north", it still seems like
some are pushing the "equivalency" (between Liberal and Conservative) theme here with a real sense of need behind it.
What's up with that?
Hurt feelings perhaps?
Nobody denies Liberalism has its share of hypocrites, but there is no equivalency on the left to the right's shutting down the gov't
over a passed law, waving a Confederate flag outside the WH, the birthers' behaviors, grass-roots quotes like,
"get your gov't hands off my medicare", terms like, "feminazis"; Michele Bachmann's (a US Congresswoman, no less) numerous
mis-statements regarding US History, the Koch Bros, rightwing media icon Roger Ailes running Fox Nooz, etc etc etc etc
etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
Neither side is perfect. Duh.
But throwing away distinctions that do matter is childish.
To achieve some degree of truth and accuracy, perhaps.
Liberalism, in our whole political system, has been on its best and
most generous behavior in recent years.
Institutional Conservatism? (the shutdown just the most recent example)
Not so much.
Do I really have to explain this?
What do you wish to accomplish with your "accuracy and truth?" Is their something positive to come from this?
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Just like there is nothing positive about the Confederate flag, or what it stands for.
Just a matter of letting go, I guess.
I need to let go of my prejudices about certain areas of the US
and my mis-perceptions of "where they're at".
The South needs to let go of the Confederate Flag and what it stood for.
That is the answer, no doubt.
Fair, balanced, logical, compassionate.
I'll take any non-response as agreement.
Thank you very much.
Have you noticed that the politics of celebs seems to correlate with that of their fans. Why do you think that is? How did Charlie Daniels get from "Uneasy Rider" to where he is now?
So buying a hedge fund is racist how specifically? Because until the financial shit hit the fan, someone could have simply invested without realizing it was "bad". Didn't Al Gore have a hedge fund? I don't have the money to put into one, so I know I'm not guilty... but I'm still curious as to if someone bought into one, how is it wrong for a liberal? To be a hedge fund manager and/or to work to manipulate the markets... that I can see. But if we make money when things go bad, at least we are still likely to put that same money back into making things better.
Flipping a house is capitalizing on a tragedy for sure, but can result in a home that is available for someone who needs a place to live and again, the money made can go back into the community so I think it would be important to see HOW someone did it and not just THAT they did do it.
Treating service personell like shit is something I can understand is completely wrong. And I think a better cancellation policy is in order where you live. Have you ever suggested that it seems a bit unfair to someone who does it trying not to come down on them with both boots? It could be they aren't as financially solvent as it appears from outside, but the timing being possibly painful to their service person should be important enough that they cancel 2 days in advance so they at least have a chance to line up another job.
Trading work for rent could be looked at as sharecropping or bartering. Barter values the person and their talents for the worth of the rent in a situation where someone's credit might not give them other options. Maybe something you aren't seeing in these situations is an underlying respect because it looks so much like the other. I don't know haven't seen the people who are doing this, but it could be worth considering.
Up here we refer to just about EVERYONE by their first name because it's a sign of acceptance into our world. A desire to be as kind and generous to strangers as we are to our families.... and we don't always get that right either - owning to the fact that we are human. I'll say Mamm or Sir before I will say, Mr, Mrs or Miss so and so. It just isn't the way we normally relate to people.
I do talk to people from down south on the phone to supply computer support and they call me Miss so and so or Sir ( i have a low voice in the mornings ) and it bugs me to think of myself as "above" someone else like that. HOWEVER, I have found that most people "get me" in a short time and I am a "favorite" on the support line. I get people laughing and solve their problem and send them on their way quickly.
Like I said up post, I do pull out Mamm and Sir a lot though and I like that. It is pure and simple respect to me and that I can easily do. But talking to someone and calling them by their last name just seems foreign to my nature. I love this world we live in and the people who live on it. Someone has to be a real ass to get on my bad side. It has happened though. Ironically, THEN I might be inclined to call them Mr or MRS so and so - to put distance between us, throw up the defenses and use icily polite as a shield against allowing myself to care about them too much.
Liberals can certainly invest in financial instruments and property. We can barter for goods and services, an idea that has great appeal for me. Liberals can even have housekeepers, gardeners and all sorts of help. There's nothing wrong with that. But the various social and economic activities in which one engages are only one factor in the equation.
So what's the difference between bartering and sharecropping? Context. When a landlord uses the prevailing economic conditions to demand more work from the tenant than they should because of a down economy or a housing shortage bartering becomes sharecropping. And that same callous landlord won't have to worry about the housekeeper trying to renegotiate for a different pay arrangement because s/he knows the housekeeper is an "independent contractor" and can be easily replaced without notice in our free market libertarian utopia. It all depends on how the person with the power wants to act. The hypocrisy happens when liberals act like conservatives when it comes to money, and liberals when it comes to appearances. You can drive a Prius and never use the "N" word and still be an asshole.
The point is that people are going to make mistakes no matter who they are. There are good landlords and employers and bad ones. That's just people doing what people do. It's not a question of ideological compliance but of ethics. I think it's a huge mistake to confuse the two because it's unwise to assume any given ideology is a priori ethical. When we begin to assume that we turn over control of our ethics to those who design the ideology.
and this post is spot on. You can't even imagine how tough it can be in the South for liberals. It's depressing to be represented by a teabagger, even though you did your best to get someone more liberal elected. It's depressing that you don't feel safe expressing your opinions too openly for fear of physical harm.
Still, we continue trying.
What I am seeing all too often around here (DU) is that we're still not trying hard enough. It's as if because we fail against not so overwhelming odds with the right that we are complete failures, and therefore not worthy of any help from their superior "blue" states/persons.
And then we're labeled as having a "victim mentality" all because we have the audacity to complain about being insulted by their attitude and opinion of us.
Sometimes you can't win even for trying.
are supposed to possess magic wands and make entire deep red states vote overwhelmingly blue. Otherwise, we are not worth the air we are breathing and we are to be belittled, begrudged, and blamed for everything the Republicans do. Somehow, my straight party voting for nothing but Democrats for the past 25 years (that option has been taken away now because of Teabagger McCrory's new racist, discriminatory voting law), makes everything that the Republicans do my fault. My vote isn't as worthy as a vote in other areas of the country.
There are times when I wish the function of voting wasn't left to the states in any form. I don't care about "states' rights" much. People's rights are far more important anyway.
I can't explain why people treat us all like this other than they're prejudiced. Plus, broad-brushing is easier than having to differentiate what you truly mean to say.
Florida in 2000 would not have turned out the way it did if there had been a good nationwide voting system that included tamper proof voting methods along with a backup of hand counting hard copy versions of those votes and a lot less scrubbing of voter lists in Florida, we'd be in much better shape now as a country.
Less confusion, less ability for tampering, and if using the electronic machines, make the code open for monitoring. The banking industry insists that Diebold do the same for their ATMs, so why is cash more important than votes?
but I feel like that sometimes, too. I GOTV, campaign, and still because we haven't magically turned the state Blue, we are worthless and deserve to blown off of the map by the next hurricane. Yes, that very shit has been said here on DU.
someone wished it would hit North Carolina's Outer Banks. At least, that is one post I personally saw. I would imagine there have been others as well.
It's brutal being from the south and not having that magic wand. I wish magic was real and I had one of those wands, because I can't think of too many people who want to see Pat McCrory and Richard Hudson, the only representative from my state that I have any say-so over his fate as Congressman, gone.
in the MS 4th district. Palazzo is a lunatic teabagger, and the sooner people realize it and re-elect someone like Taylor (D) the better off we will be. Even Republicans like him, and are realizing what a nut job Palazzo is.
You know, the magic wand he possesses that he should have used to achieve everything on every liberal's wish list immediately, including making Congress do what we want? Yeah that one.
I see it too, Jamastiene. The anti-Southernism has gone from frustration to something toxic and ill-considered all too often. We've just lost carolinayellowdog over this.
I always (with some slips now and again) look at it from the standpoint of how I was brought up, and how I expanded the lesson through my own life: Prejudice and bigotry are wrong. Each individual deserves to be judged individually, for themselves, for their own behavior. This transcends all categories.
I thought it was an ethical stance, and I certainly thought it was a Liberal stance. Maybe more people need to be reflective and not reflexive.
~ never lived in the South, not even a Christian any more, but will continue to meet each person as the individuals they are for good or ill ~
is when they wish that we get blown off the map by a hurricane, despite the fact that some of us down here are true-blue, reliable liberals that try to change things.
It makes me ill to imagine that some folks that are Democrats have such harsh opinions of their brethren and sisters to the south.
And so saddened by such ingrained prejudice that they can't lift above that and see us as a region of individuals.
I'm going to start challenging our detractors to come on down and help guide us as it seems we are too stupid to do it ourselves any more. I know they won't respond well to that, but I'm fed up with the denigration solely for where I call Home.
with Karen, which turned out to fizzle, but what does it say about people that are delighted to have other Democrats and people, really, suffer?
and that we're not supposed to take it seriously
Seems to me it goes deeper than simple fantasies, especially for those that want to break up the Union in order to rid themselves of the South. Nevermind the fact that such an act would be worse than even having President Ted Cruz as far as economic damage the world over. It's more important to assuage their feelings about us, and not the other way around. They're just "venting."
No. They're not.
I was basically just informed that I had no idea what I was talking about. I made an analogy about a NE state getting hit with a snowstorm and how no one wishes them ill, and pretty much got told I didn't know what I was talking about. You live in the South, and you know exactly what I'm talking about. So did the OP and so do a few others around here from the south.
that preparing for a hurricane, whether it hits or not, is a good thing. And I remember being told that it won't do anything bad, power will be back up in less than a week, and that they hated wasting all that money preparing for a storm that fizzled out where they were.
Other people's personal experience is meaningless to some people.
having no power for six weeks and no water for nearly a month after Katrina. It was like Christmas to be able to finally flush the toilets and bathe in hot water.
And that was back when the power company had company-linemen, did regular maintenance on the lines, and kept it all in tip-top working order. We discovered what happens during Ike when corporations don't want to pay for that kind of "gold standard" level of maintenance. I'm sure that was also part of the power problems after Katrina.
I have to admit that I can't imagine going that long without power. While I've spent two weeks at Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico, that's still only two weeks.
There's a Top Gear episode out there somewhere when they came to the US, and drove across the South. They ended the episode in New Orleans, and were absolutely appalled that the place still looked like it had gone through a massive disaster, and that was years after Katrina. Even hard-core conservative member Jeremy Clarkson was in shock at what they were seeing and how we, as a country, hadn't done anything more to help that area out.
(gotta leave work now, and will pick this up later )
When Sandy hit, I didn't see one post from any of us gloating, wishing ill. All I saw were posts offering empathy, sympathy, support, outrage that the Ted Party didn't want to authorize emergency funding, etc.
There are things posted on this very thread by some of the most liberal, intelligent (and previously respected-at least by me), DUers. The bigotry and vitriol is stunning and cringe worthy, but I'm glad to know who these people are. They have shown their true colors, and now I know where I and other Southerners stand with them. I also know that they are NOT real liberals, they just play them here, and are just like THE VERY PEOPLE to whom the op is referring.
Thanks. If they knew the many good folks that I know--both black and white, they wouldn't say that. I've always hated generalities.
The income data, the % of GOPers v Democrats, the education level, the health stats... All for WHAT PURPOSE? Why the parade of information that most of us have read??
NO PURPOSE but to "point it out."
How disingenuous, how transparent. To me, some folks are getting off on beating up on the nearest "acceptable" enemy: Fellow DUers from the South. And again: THERE IS NO RELEVANT CONSTRUCTIVE PURPOSE. There is only the tired old reactionary saw of shame.
I've never understood that.
Nor can I grasp deriving False Pride from an accident of birth.
I have lived & loved in Northern Blue Cities, The Great Lakes States, The West Coast, The PNW, the Gulf Coast and now our chosen home deep in The Ozark Mountains of the South.
I enjoyed them all to the fullest,
and found sensitive, intelligent, open minded, caring people everywhere.
I also seen closed minds, Bigotry, Ignorance, and Hate everywhere.
The choice was always up to me which one I embraced.
Its MUCH easier being Blue in a Blue State.
All you have to do is follow the crowd.
Being Blue in a Red State takes good boundaries, intelligence, commitment, dedication, and courage.
It is also a MUST to have the current FACTS at one's fingertips,
including the latest Conservative Talking Points in order to know what is coming.
(The latest one that emerged in our area yesterday is that Muslims are exempt from ObamaCare)
A toast for all those Liberals living in Red States!
I would not have the fortitude to live in an area where
"you don't feel safe expressing your opinions too openly for fear of physical harm."
That must take some inner strength.
and I am not being facetious in the slightest. I'm an openly gay woman in South MS. Try that one on for size.
But I have relatives down south, hard core religious who are all seemingly drinking the koolaid. I don't know if I can even persuade them. I re-butt their wrong information on a daily basis some times and it just makes me feel crazy. They know me to be an honest, caring person, but think I'm deluded by the anti-Christ or something, I guess.
For them it's less about racism and more about supporting others who aren't pulling their fair share. My one aunt married a man from El Salvador, I think and he was the best man she knew. But he was hard working and got his green card and citizenship at a time when it wasn't as close to impossible as it is now days. My cousin, her daughter married an actual African from Africa who she met during a mission trip. They went through immigration hell, including she had to go live with him in Africa and bribe officials to get him over here. Took 3 or more years I think. But THEY did it, THEY jumped through hoops and so why can't everyone else?
The fact that the bottom 80% split 7% of the money is putting people at each others' throats and down south (my folk live in North Carolina) it is 24x7 blame Obama for everything. (Or that is my perception from my interactions. Trying to make sense of it long distance sometimes makes my head hurt.)
Have driven through the South many times; and I will admit, I stereo-type the red-neck country. But I'll also readily admit some of my most respected friends I have, because I now reside in Mexico in a expatriate community, are those that have endured a progressive view in the South. From Texas, Arkansas, Virginia, Georgia....and I have the greatest of respect for those good folks; and I know there are millions more just like them.
It's tough when you are surrounded by real red necks and dixie flag waving fools, and I'll give you that. I don't know how I would have turned out, had I been born and raised there. I'm as progressive as hell now, and calling me a socialist is no insult. I don't accept ANY label 100%, but I don't blow off any label neither.
I tip my hat to YOU! A liberal progressive in the South has had to struggle a damn might harder than those of us surrounded by like-minded folks up here in the North.
in Mexico, too. They're from Va., love it there. He's into genealogy, went to the local gen. society meeting, and met a cousin he didn't know he had! Small world.
I'm from the western mountains of Va(the edge of Appalachia), and have lived in NC, SC, and Fla. Lots of good, decent, well-educated liberal folks in all those states. It's sad to see these folks vilified because they live in the South. It's especially grating coming from fellow DU'ers, who should know better. Thanks for your balanced, reasoned response.
huh? Liberals are elites? maybe they meant they grew up with "liberalism" (whatever THAT is).
"liberalism" sounds like "communism", or "socialism"...
my hearing ain't too good at my age but these sure sound like "conservativism dog whistles"
What if, in ten years or so, you looked up and discovered you were a conservative. Not because you set out to be able to wear a big "C" on your chest, but because your life choices led you there? It's only human to consider how it could have happened.
If you were born into the ideology that you embrace, somebody or something saved you a lot of trouble. That's the silver platter.
I just spent the last half hour reading this thread trying to get a sense of your "dilemma" and in each post/reply there are 5 new points. In regards to your "What If..."- this is how "it could have happened" to me-
My "Silver Platter" of which I was unaware until 15 years ago (the reason will become apparent as you read on):
I was born to Marxist Catholics who met on the editorial board of Dorothy Day's "The Catholic Worker" They had a sense of duty to fellow human beings, especially the poor, as a way to serve God. My father tried 3 times to enlist in the Navy to fight fascism (another ism) and The Nazi's in WWII but was refused each time because his work on the Manhattan Project made him too important in the war effort. He later founded the chemistry department at Saint Louis University and threatened the Jesuits with his resignation when they refused to give one of his first doctoral students his PhD because he was black. He also appeared before the HUAC in defense of his boss on The Project. My parents welcomed with open arms the first Jewish family into our little cul du sac when all the other residence shunned them.... I could go on. But-
My father died when I was two years old. He had berylliosus, a fatal disease which crystallizes the lungs and rots the bone marrow over a period of a decade or so. My mother, because of the sensitive nature of his work, rarely spoke to us of him (an issue I've long since forgiven her). He gave his life for his country, though never joining the military his work directly helped shorten the war and saved thousands of American and allied soldiers lives.
From my birth to the age of 39, because his life's work was classified, I assumed George Washington Schaeffer, Jr. was a staunch Catholic (which he was in many ways) Anti-choice, Anti-Gay, Anti-whatever Conservative who would have voted for Nixon and Reagan, etc (a quick aside: on only one occasion did my mother give a clue- when we were watching the RNC and Nixon was being nominated she said "George always said if that man was ever elected this nation would be in trouble!" . As far as I knew, my father was the archetypal image of "The Man" that my generation were rebelling against in the late '60's. I only found out otherwise when my siblings and I did some research to see if we qualified for a "Weapons Workers Compensation Act" signed by Bill Clinton. We had to file FOIA papers and go to The National Archives in D.C. and all that shit- it was pretty cool!
So- THIS is my "Silver Platter". I was WRONG about my legacy until I was 40 years old. I was a "Liberal by birth" as you say, without even knowing it- Hell- I just grew up wanting to do what's right (even without a father-figure in my life for guidance). Turns out- I AM my fathers son.
The grave I never visited 'til I was 40.
The man I never knew 'til I was 40.
I'm sorry you didn't know more about your dad than you did till you were forty. He sounds like quite a man.
When calls for the creation of a small community college began in my home town there was a general outrage against wasting money on an ugly institutional facility for something as unnecessary as a "college". It's creation was finally grudgingly approved when they agreed to put columns on the front of the buildings. It's reasonable to assume that not many fathers there moonlighted founding university departments or working on the Manhattan Project.
But it's true that people and the cultures they create are complicated and there are always outliers. I would never have gone back to college but for a private grant from some very wealthy people. They had two cats they adored named Ronald Reagan and George Bush. Whoda thunk it?
This has been an interesting thread. Most of my OP's sink like a stone. Of course this whole "south" thing is hot right at the moment, but for some reason the references to "social plumage" and "silver platter" really got people stirred up. I'm obviously not trained as a writer so I have a hard time figuring out how to jam a bunch of ideas into a few hundred words. The short narrative in the OP was not to claim that "my liberalism is better than yours" but to make people aware that not only can changing ideology be difficult, if you don't have to change you can take it for granted and forget to examine it critically. Now, for conservatives who embrace the "conservation" of ideas that's not a problem. But for liberals who embrace change such complacency is deadly.
Not only am I not a writer, I'm not a sociologist. But it seems that a strange turn occurs in people's attitudes toward what they believe. Somehow, ideology becomes an end rather than a means. I expect it happens to everyone to one degree or another but for some it happens a lot, and dogmatism and bigotry can be the result. And to make matters worse, there is an industry designed to treat ideology as an object, which is to say make it an end in itself in the form of a product to be acquired - or possessed. And of course, possessions can be inherited from one's cultural milieu and treated like affectations. Or social plumage.
Bigotry and ignorance reign.
The people here need government and use government but despise government.
I have lived here all my life and will never understand it.
The only glimmer of hope I've seen is with the teenagers, thanks to the Internet, that seem to be rejecting religion and the ideas of their conservative parents.
Virginia is changing because of Yankees and foreigners moving in. Texas is changing because of Hispanic immigration. Democrats increasingly need the South less and less, in a way the Tea party is kind of a last stand by white Southerners. You'll never see a so called balanced national ticket with a Southern vice presidential candidate again.
The South declared war on America first and keeps doing it.
Thanks for proving the Op Ed.
Maybe those who "don't get it" will now.
the immigrants, LGBT's, and transplants. I really think the next couple of elections will build the coalition. The GOP's support base of "Old South Racists" isn't exactly a renewable resource, after all. The young people in the South want no part in racism, homophobia, classism, etc.
The thing about it is that the Dems have to reach out to them in a way that isn't demeaning or condescending. "Southbashing" isn't doing us any good.
georgia are still all about racism and homophobia... I think in general you're right, but it will take several more generations till its mostly phased out.
and southbashing just makes them more stubborn and cling to those outdated beliefs.
went from deep blue to deep red within 20 years.
Or perhaps lack of research done. Texas was a blue state for many, many years.
She grew up in a family of old Florida immigrants who originally came here from the enlightened land of South Carolina in the 1850s. They were no liberals in matters of race, but by the time I was around a hundred years later, they firmly corrected me when I brought home the crap racial slogans of my childhood. And our re-unions every year show a diversity before diversity was "cool."
Who would you suggest should immigrate to Florida who hasn't already?
Guess what.... it doesn't just happen in Appalachia.... which goes all the way up thru PA to ME y'know. You might need to get out more.
Go to AZ, AK, ND, SD, OK, KS.....
Bigotry and ignorance reign all over.
Again... maybe those who "don't get" this Op Ed, will after a few more posts like yours.
NC & VA have some of the best schools in the country....
And thanks for proving the original Op Ed....again.
I live in Texas. Asshole of the year cruz is supposed to represent me. I get what the OP is trying to say (could be put better though) but I see where those who are arguing the other side are coming from. Sure Texas gave us Bill Moyers and Molly Ivins and Jim Hightower. But we also got george w., phil gramm, and tom delay. Three writers with good intentions haven't wiped out the carnage and pain that came from the other three. Now we toss cruz into the mix.
Sorry if you don't like having the south bashed. Sure there is bigotry and ignorance in other places, but mostly those don't celebrate and revel in it.
And yes, Texas is southern. We have more bankers, and oil wells, and insurance executives than lone cowboys. Texas is a big state. But even west Texas has more in common with Alabama than New Mexico. You can't really rely on your own preconceptions and television for your facts.
Just keep voting and campaigning for progressive causes (translate as lost causes here) and try to understand why people have their own preconceptions.
must have gone to an inferior Southern school?
This is your argument?
How is your fracture? I read that you had a compound fracture of the leg and I'm just hoping that you are healing up well
you good people.
Thing is, I never left DU -- iPads work great on hospital wifi!
Seriously though, we know politics needs more change in the Southern states. And the Midwest. And Alaska, etc.
But it's not like we're all helping it suck. In fact, organizers down here could use some more positive national attention, and less disdain.
and was educated in private school, and I certainly get it. But hey, nice additional dig against Southerners that we are horribly uneducated. I'm sure you are glad that my sister, who has her Master's in Early Education and has won teacher of the year for several years at her school isn't teaching your child. I mean, you wouldn't want your child learning from an uneducated hillbilly like that!
I live in a rural area that seems to be changing somewhat since the internet. I have often said I wished I was from one of the generations that came up behind me because they, overall, are much more liberal than my generation was.
Explains the mountain mentality in a respectful but very humorous fahion. A great read.
You will probably get flamed, but so want. The truth is, there are a lot of liberals and moderates down here in the south. Not a majority, and often concentrated in the cities, but you find them everywhere. And too many act as if the rest of the country is pure blue.
and I don't know what the hell you are talking about. You site no evidence...not even something anecdotal. You just give us what you believe about Liberals...nothing more.
I have certainly met a few of those who wear the progressive plumage over a KKK-type bigotry. Many years ago, I was living and working in the D.C. area. One of my bosses (from NY) was always espousing liberal causes, but he said to me once: Why didn't you keep those damn n___ down on the plantations where they belong." My skin crawled whenever I looked at him after that.
I grew up in the south also and appreciate the effort it took to become and remain a liberal when all around you are opposing views.
How the aitch do you think you know what makes us 'us'? That's like a bleepin' oligarch telling the poor they suffer from their own bad choices. Nobody gets true liberalism handed to them on a silver (or brass) platter. It has to come from inside, deep in your bones. I fought for mine against as much opposition as you did, sister. Get off your high horse before it throws you.
Not to mention, especially ironic coming from someone complaining about arrogance and bigotry in the same damn paragraph.
Look at me, everybody! I'm a liberal! And a lot better one than the 'other' kind I point at to soothe my conscience by imagining they had an easier ride, making them invariably less authentic! Load of BS, that's what.
In case someone's still unclear on the concept: that rooster crowing in the morning did NOT cause the sun to rise.
when your parents, teachers, church, and almost all of your friends think you are being a traitor to your country for doing so.
It's much easier to espouse liberal politics when your family, friends, and community are all supportive of liberalism.
the op stated that lots of liberals who grew up as liberals in liberal communities are as bigoted as right wing fundies from the south.
I'm saying that liberals can be bigoted, among other things and positing one or two reasons among many for the source of that bigotry.
It was whiney and self-righteous, arrogant towards those falsely assumed to have had an easier ride. THAT's what makes it so appalling. Not to mention uninformed. So what if I didn't have to fight my own family? There are plenty of others around who think it's open hunting season. Some of them even hang out here.
That's quite the funniest juxtaposition I have seen today.
there are an enormous number of variables that scramble the eventual results. I lived in New England for my first 20 years (Rhode Island, then New Hampshire), then went on to Washington State (Seattle), then to suburban Philadelphia (the "main line" area, Villanova to Berwyn, then to West Chester, now to Raleigh). My father voted Nixon, my mom a die hard Dem - we didn't talk politics in the house. We thought a particular way and lived a particular way that probably was more an example of liberal ideas and ideals. Many of my friends had the same types of starts - and they ended up hard right wing - they were seduced by a focus on money and greed and it ended up as hubris. I didn't go that direction - the older I get, the more leftward I drift.
Everywhere I've lived I've seen a mix - left, right, open mindedness, empathy, racism, sexism, hypocrisy - you name it. I think generalizations of regions are not at all helpful - whether it is, for example, south demonizing north or west, or vice versa. It is too complex - WE are too complex.
The common denominator I've seen - people tend to be easily manipulated - the big bell curve exists - TV is a drug that really does influence what people think. Just watching the responses to political events in Raleigh is an eye opener - each of us that sit at a particular point on the political firmament has a difficult time seeing the other points of view - and how we got those points of view is, as I said at the beginning of this, incredibly complex.
South = all bad, even the Democrats here
All other areas = perfect
At least according to a lot of people on DU, not all. There are some here on DU who understand that regionalism is just a mindless circular firing squad that accomplishes nothing.
I personally know people from a left leaning background that went the other way as their fortunes rose. There are no doubt others that went the other way changed as well. Some dude with a big beard wrote a book about it.
I know on whose shoulders I stand, and I give them full respect and credit for their nurture. But just as you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink, simply being shown the manual won't do a bit of good when seed is sown in rocky soil.
This "I did it all on my own" crap is pseudo-intellectual and full of ... I think 'hubris' might be the more polite term for what I'm thinking.
Sounds like somebody's whining for the licks they took growing up. Maybe they haven't yet shed that old skin as thoroughly as they're pleased to announce. Empty suits; just another version of their own hypocrisy. Go ahead and imagine yourself superior to old-line liberals all you want. It's nothing more than air castles.
to apply their reverse-elite tar brush so widely. I'm under absolutely NO moral imperative to take it in silence, either. You want to find a troll, look under your own armpit.
Liberal people are fundamentally different from others. Allrighty then.
exposes your ulterior motives. Either get my goat or hurt my feelings. You know very well that's not at all what I said. But you definitely did malign my own sincerity straight out of the gate. That's why I doubt yours.
Now, see what kind of pretzel you can make of that.
Those are your words. But maybe I misinterpreted them. Lets have a look.
If liberalism exists as an innate part of someone as if it were genetically encoded your umbrage would be the rankest kind of bigotry wouldn't it? You'd be claiming that your were innately better than somebody else because of what you are, and be extension, what they are. That would be bad.
But what if liberalism somehow got "into your bones" from somewhere else? The next question to ask is how did it get there and more importantly, how hard was it to get it there? How hard did you have to work to consider yourself an "old-line" liberal? Were you raised in a liberal family? In a liberal region of the country? Did you ever have to question the basic beliefs of your upbringing? If that's the case, your environment saved you a lot of time and trouble. Good for you.
By now you should see the nature/nurture implications of your dilemma. So which is it? Why don't you untwist your words for us.
Of course the interesting part of this issue is not really how hard it is to embrace an ideology, but what people do with it. It seems to me that serious problems arise when ideology becomes an end rather than a means; a product rather than a tool; a litmus test rather than a big tent.
in certain circles. All of you are projecting your own biases and misconceptions onto my statements. I don't really resent it too much, because that would give your complaints a false validity.
Now, see if you can follow this: Where, oh where did I say or imply there was only one way to get that genuine liberality down deep in your bones? Nowhere, not once. Instead the OP author continues to insist that her supposedly self generated illumination trumps that of one steeped in it from birth. That sounds rather like a messianic complex to me, which makes me wonder how completely she's escaped the religious strictures with which she was reared. I never expressed any reluctance to accept her as my equal; I just said don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
Good night and good luck.
I realize it's probably late there.
What exactly is "genuine liberality" anyway? Some might confuse it with my phrase "social plumage" but that's not necessarily the case. One can certainly be a liberal and use that ideology as social plumage. In fact, it works better if you really truly believe in it. Here's an interesting book if you'd like to check it out. It's free.
You don't seem to understand the phrase itself "down deep in your bones" belies a certain, um, messianic zeal. Think about it.
So good night and good luck.
(fyi, that can be read as 'kindly do not waste any more of my time, thank you')
by all means have a good evening.
If you decline nature or nurture, you're stuck with...
I dunno if you want to go that way.
Oh, wait. There's always God, but that isn't any more satisfying to me than aliens.
South bashing accomplishes nothing.
It makes people defensive and detracts from any positive message the "basher" might have originally had.
say about Southerners?
Good boy. Now stay in the corner until you can play with others?
Southerners make utter fools of themselves and then are offended when sensible people criticize them. Makes no sense.
Southerners want the right to be fools.
How about that they are not all the same and not all responsible for Ted Cruz?
TX is NOT the entire South. And indeed, it's the West as far as I'm concerned. Long horns are not Southern. And no one in the South wore a cowboy hat (because cowboys are from the West, not the South) until the 1940's when Nashville became home to Country Music. We ride English over here.
share the Gulf Coast with other Southern states.
and I'm a liberal, and Ted Cruz doesn't speak for me. I am DYING to get my teabagger Representative out of office, and hopefully will in 2014. You need a few of those horrible Southern people in office to take back the House and retain the Senate.
are a minority of Southerners. Therein lies the problem. I realize that I am generalizing, but face it, we in California have our Darryl Issa -- the exceptional Californian and one of the most obnoxious of the conservatives. Still, generally, California at this time is liberal. We are still paying for our sin with electing the likes of Schwarzenegger and Reagan. I think we learned our lesson. Schwarzenegger nearly drove us into bankruptcy with his borrowing and never raising taxes.
Texas is a double slave state and certainly deserves to be part of the "South"
regardless of your opinion of her, she's far from as bad the Carnival Cruz.
Meanwhile the North has given us Rand Paul, Scott Walker, Bohener, Peter King, Dick Santorum, Michele Bachman and many other Rethugs.
Yes I know you weren't saying that, I was just reinforcing your point.
it is very Southern in its mentality. I know it well.
s thought of as liberal like Detroit or Chicago, even Harlem, are "Southern" in their mentality since those are areas that historically had a lot of Southern transplants.
"Southern Appalachian is the dialect of 75% of the folks living in Dayton and Middletown,while in places like Cincinnati 40% of its population are actually true Southerners."
Funny how Virginia is turning Blue and West Virginia is turning Red.
and they refer to soft drinks as "pop". They're as southern as lobster rolls or good pizza, which is to say not at all..
Rand Paul might have been born in Pittsburgh..........................
"Randal Howard Paul was born on January 7, 1963, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, to Carol (née Wells) and Ron Paul. His father is a physician and former U.S. Representative of Texas' 14th congressional district. The middle child of five, his siblings are Ronald "Ronnie" Paul Jr., Lori Paul Pyeatt, Robert Paul and Joy Paul-LeBlanc. Paul was baptized in the Episcopal Church and identified as a practicing Christian as a teenager. Despite his father's libertarian views and strong support for individual rights, the novelist Ayn Rand was not the inspiration for his first name; he went by "Randy" while growing up. His wife shortened his name to "Rand".
The Paul family moved to Lake Jackson, Texas, in 1968, where Rand was raised and where his father began a medical practice and for an extent of time was the only obstetrician in Brazoria County. When Rand was 13, his father was elected to the United States House of Representatives. In his teenage years, Paul studied the Austrian economists that his father respected, as well as the writings of Objectivist philosopher Ayn Rand. Paul went to Brazoswood High School and was on the swimming team and played defensive back on the football team. Paul attended Baylor University from fall 1981 to summer 1984. He was enrolled in the honors program at Baylor, and had scored approximately in the 90th percentile on the Medical College Admission Test. During the time he spent at Baylor, he was involved in the swim team and Young Conservatives of Texas and was a member of a secret organization known as the NoZe Brotherhood. Paul left Baylor early when he was accepted into the Duke University School of Medicine, where he earned his Doctor of Medicine (M.D.) degree in 1988 and completed his residency in 1993."
There were enough votes all along to pass a clean CR. John Boehner (R-OH) simply refused to hold a vote.
I would think it would be far more constructive to rail against "conservatives" than "Southerners" in this instance. Sure, there are lots of conservatives down here. But the reddest states aren't even in the South. VA is blue now. NC & FL are swing states, and GA is purple enough to be dangerous.
But turning something that should be an ideological war into a regional thing is counter-productive. People get defensive.
If you are getting push back from dyed-in-the-wool Southern liberals on this board, just imagine how this sort of stuff comes across to Southern moderates and independents.
Arkansas, Kansas (what's the matter with them), Texas and yes, I would count Arizona.
It's a pretty horrible record.
Compare to California, Oregon and Washington.
Add New York and the Northeastern coastal states, and you see a pattern. The Southern states are deeply conservative and send the worst scum to Congress.
Real Conservatives in the Republican party are in the nursing home and being abused by their evil children and grandchildren. Real Conservatives would never have shut the government down.
Imagine Georgia replacing Max Cleland with Saxby Chambliss.
called here. Something about plumage.
are a bunch of southern liberals on DU trying to reason with you and maybe we'll leave your plumage alone. How are we supposed to reason with you when your head is firmly entrenched in the sand? We have to pull on your plumage a little bit to get you to come up for air and listen.
regionalism that you have felt here on DU. The OP, which you are supporting, bashes northern liberals with as broad a brush as any I have seen used here against the south.
I am not your problem here. I don't need you to "reason" with me, because no, I don't have my head in the sand, and I have never engaged in the regionalism against the south that you are saying you object to.
I do, however, strongly object to the asinine regionalism that is being tossed around in this thread, and in your post. This isn't "a bunch of southern liberals" "trying to reason" with me. This is a couple of posters engaging in the very regionalism they say they can't stand.
You "earned" your liberalism somehow because you were born in the south, with those of us in the north were just (silver) spoon-fed our ideology?
Wow. "feathered plumage of ideological arrogance". Indeed.
I never set out to wear a big "L" on my chest. I just made certain life choices that resulted in my liberal ideology. Which is to say nobody else put that "L" there either.
and somehow I never ran across those privileged liberals. I would like to know how you think the right to hold an ideology is earned.
in the North, and don't really see why rrneck's liberalism is de facto better than mine. But it appears he's saying it is, and it has something to do with the fact that he was born in the South, and there are some bigots in the North.
Oh, and plumage. Somehow, plumage figures in...
To each his own, I guess...
Even if you weren't sure what you were working for.
It's part of the EEOC regulations against discriminating for emigrants, but our country is so diverse, many states are like little countries. We need federal protection to give a bedrock of rights.
I'm from the South, but brought up in a different era than you, much more liberal than some rural and other areas now. I encountered and saw the various forms of bigotry based on other things, and had to live with it as things went the wrong way as Reagan got into office.
The germ of the current plague was only lying dormant for a short time from my mid to late twenties. I moved away and found that I was going to be reviled even as a liberal, progressive and socialist type person in an area that embraced such things, because of my place of origin, the South.
It was overt and hateful, they wanted me and my family to leave. They didn't believe in a national view, in fact I found some aspects to be more backward and provincial than where I'd grown up in the fifties and sixties, yet they felt their liberal bonafides were impeccable.
Then I learned the sordid racial history of some of the famed Left Coast was not as I thought it was, and even experienced my first hate message, by a phone caller who got the wrong number but took offense at my accent on my answering machine and felt entitled, thinking I was black, to denigrate me.
He left a venomous sounding message that shocked me in tone and words: 'You need to go back to Africa or learn to TALK WHITE.' I was so disturbed, living in 'liberal land' or so I thought, beyond the racism that I learned to be ashamed of growing up. A friend came over to listen. She proceeded to tell me that racism was alive and well and directed me where to learn more. Whenever whites want to complain of black anger, imagine that being one's experience and expectation in life. It's sick.
I have found some of my Southern neighbors to be much more liberal than those who were born in blue states. We need to get over this. I'm still going to post a thread as my final word on the Confederacy, just to let it all out, how wrong it was. It'll be cathartic for me.
I keep recalling a story of an American soldier in WW2, talking to a German POW. I don't know if it was true, but the ideas remained with me.
The German. seeing that the American holding him as a prisoner was white, and he was puzzled, wondering why America was fighting the Germans.
He asked the American, 'You are like us. Why are you here fighting us?' To which the American replied, 'To save you from the insane idea that you are better than anyone else.'
I believe in discussing ideas and philosophy of rights and good government, and being practical, not caught up into talk and no action. I'll make it clear it's not region bashing, but that we need to eliminate the true problem in our thinking.
Thanks, a well said OP.
I lived there in the 1950s. It was really awful.
I'm in rural NC. It was 2013, not the 1950s. It was a Halloween costume. There was a sale at a specialty rock fashion store in town. She was walking with an African American lady and they were talking as they walked. Their conversation did not look particularly heated or even strained in any way. They looked like they were comparing Halloween costumes and nothing more. So, was she the racist or am I for not seeing the same kind of racism today that you saw in the 50s? I am not saying it is not there. There is plenty of racism to go around all over the world, not just the south or just the U.S., but the entire world. But the south today is nothing like it was in the 1950s.
When my aunt was stationed in Fort McClellan in the 1950s, the WACs were told not to go out in public with mixed race friendships, because it would cause harm to African American friends and the African American communities down there. I would be interested to know if they still have the same rule today. I doubt they need it now.
Granted, the south does have a sordid history of horrible racism that was systemic and amounted to no less than terrorism. If the U.S. government would do the right thing and count domestic terrorists as the terrorists they are and charge them for terrorism instead of murder, a lot of that crap might be reigned in some.
My point is that while the south does have a terrible history and a terrible problem when it comes to mouthy racist jerks, we also have a lot of people who are of different races and are friends, husbands, wives, their children, etc. It is not a constant terrorism laden hell in the South every day down here like it was in the past. It is also not a daily KKK rally in the streets of the South like some people seem to think, at least going by their attitude toward everyone in the south. Is there still racism? Yes, but it is not as prevalent was it was back then.
Cruz, etc., then I will believe there is real change. It isn't just about racism. It is about the social attitude and the lack of pride in being part of the Union.
When I was there, Southerners were not over their loss in the "War Between the States," which is what they called the Civil War. When I hear Texas Republicans talk about seceding from the Union, when I notice how many of the Southern states are rebelling against the ACA and taking care of our environment, etc., then I think very little has changed. Same old, same old ignorance. New styles in clothes (as you point out).
speech? A lots changed in half a century.
people would understand what you're trying to get at.
some island? Or blockade us somehow?
Take a look inward.
Such a profoundly beautiful post I can't even stand it. One for the ages. People may pretend not to understand, how convenient for them, but don't let that throw you, rrneck. Thank you for writing it and thank you for being brave enough to post it.
you're a professional mind reader, right?
do address the following, point by point?
you're claiming that you see the same bigotry from liberal who grew up in a liberal environment as the kind you witnessed growing up in a fundy red environment, but you don't effectively make the case for your claim. And how the hell do you discern if someone is just a liberal poseur or believes what they say and how they vote? You keep referencing the behavior of these people as making it impossible to build a working coalition, but you don't go into what that behavior entails.
And what percent of liberals would you say fit into the category you're so irate about?
At least they don't vote for the crazy teathuglican fundies.
the feathered plumage of ideological arrogance"?
It sounds great, very musical, nice images, but it's vague. It could mean anything. What did you mean with it?
Precisely whom are you dissing in your humble, kind, unaffected, supportive, helpful post?
in Bulwer-Lytton fiction contest- flowery, overly dramatic and saying nothing.
Last edited Thu Oct 17, 2013, 09:25 PM - Edit history (1)
Do you know how to make your own clothes? I don't. I guess I could learn if I thought about it, but why? I'll just go buy whatever they have at the store. Off the rack clothes all look alike anyway. Changes in fashion are pretty predictable.
Ideology is a different story. I don't want somebody to design a generic ideology for me. That, I want to make for myself. I'm not a liberal because everybody around me was or because I thought it would look good on me. I'm a liberal because of how I think things ought to be.
That doesn't make those "born liberal" any less so. Nor does it make them necessarily somehow shallow or vain. But just as wealth and privilege bring with them a sense of entitlement, so too can an ideology.
Since liberalism presumes cultural change there is an inherent danger in uncritically embracing something you were born with. "We've always done it that way" is a curiously conservative attitude toward liberalism.
Conservatives tend to be so because they don't want nobody messing with the deal they've got. When we defend ideology for our own self interest rather than for its efficacy, it can become social plumage.
I never did like hand me downs.
and over a purely innocuous and subjective comment to the OP that had absolutely no impact on you?
I also like the color blue, calamari, and the collected works of Aubrey Beardsley, did you want me to change all my "likes" to match your tastes, or just conform to 20th century English novelists?
for responsibility for racism and ultra reactionary wing-nut politics. It's a false dichotomy. I was raised in the North and taught that racism was something that happened in the South. It wasn't our problem. That, of course, was a complete lie. It's also a dangerous lie because when one refuses to acknowledge a problem exists, there is no possible way to combat it.
As far as conservative politics, voting patterns break down by population density. Cities vote Democratic and exurban, rural, and small towns vote Republican. Suburbs tend to be swing areas.
Fixating on North vs. South misses the demographic reality of American politics.
Only around 10% of white voters in Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi voted for Obama. Here's the dishonor roll.
Looks great under a black light.
Thanks for your comments, and the link.
Very interesting point. Funny how familiarity with The Other makes us less fearful, more accepting, and more able to peacefully coexist. It's unfortunate, because there seems to much to admire about small-town life. And, as we see from the Vanderbei map, there are some areas of low population density that skew either Purple or even Blue.
This "cartogram"* from Mark Newman is also pretty interesting (and even more psychedelic ):
* cartogram = a map in which the sizes of states are rescaled according to their population
We do have Republicans in my hometown, but they are a novelty compared to the number of Democrats and the influence of the local Democratic Party here.
Thanks to gerrymandering, though, we are stuck, once again, with another Republican representative. As blue as this area is, you'd think we could get a Democrat voted into that position more often than we do, but they redraw the district lines every few years, way too often, to make damn sure we end up with a Republican representing us most of the time. Gerrymandering the districts and tweaking them to stay Republican controlled despite a large number of Democratic counties is killing my area when it could be thriving and growing.
From "The Great Gerrymander of 2012" by Sam Wang - NY Times, 2/2/13:
The article describes the basic strategy thusly:
More info on redistricting here: http://redistricting.lls.edu/
Looks different when you look at the winner-take-all map of electoral college results, of course. I won't copy that one here, because it's easy enough to find in hundreds of places.
It shows county by county voting through the years.
Partly because it's a four hundred word OP which is two hundred words too long.
But I think it's pretty obvious in celebrity talking heads that indulge in hyperbole, an economy that simply can't exist along purely partisan lines and of course my own experience, which is impossible to verify.
And West-bashing and East-bashing. And Midwest-bashing. And Pacific and Arctic bashing. And so on.
What I support is Rightwinger-bashing. But even that is tempered by a desire to see more Morans converted to Progressivism.
People who criticize what you say here are not interested in understanding the south you describe, people "quietly working together in peace to try and have a better life while getting screwed at every turn." I'm from Wisconsin and have lived in Georgia now going on 12 years. People in liberal bubbles have no idea how arrogant they seem.
and I've NEVER seen what you are referring to in any of the liberals I know. And I live in Ho Chi Min City (Madison,WI).
I know just what you are saying, if you had to fight everyone and everything you know to be a liberal then it's more heartfelt than when liberalism is just the default politics you pick up from your environment.
Oh, great. Just what we need.
of someone in a more liberal area? Because that seems to be the message here.
And it's pretty damn dumb.
Liberal views are equal. It is how we develop those liberal views that is different, not better or worse. It is just different. In a conservative area, being a liberal is not just holding different political views than conservatives. That is not how it works. Someone who is a liberal in conservative areas is not only frowned upon, but are actively belittled and alienated to a degree that you stand alone, literally. You are ostracized to the point that you have to find other ways to meet people who have the same views or who will even be friends with you. You literally have to stand up against the entire rest of the town, on your own, if you are liberal in some areas of the south. And on DU, you still get to be hated and belittled by liberals who share the same political views yet hate you just because you are from the south. That is pretty damn dumb, if you ask me.