Eating heirloom raw organic vegan is the ultimate FUCK YOU to corporate America.

[livingwagenow]

Standard American Diet = S.A.D.

The SAD diet is designed to make us sick WITHOUT killing us right away. Its fine if we die several years down the road, after they've milked our sick asses for all we're worth. When we are bankrupt from our ill health brought on by our diet of fake 'food', then corporate America throws us to the lions and we die a miserable death, bankrupted because we're kicked off our for-profit "health insurance". Once we're bankrupt, we're no longer useful, err profitable to the profit scheme known as the modern American 'healthcare' system.

If I were a sociopathic capitalist, I'd pick pharmaceuticals as my profit method. I'd collude with food giants. We'd work together to unleash GMO's laced with toxic pesticides that also are taken up by the roots of the plants that don't just wash off. You can't wash all of the pesticide residue off of a conventionally grow(non-organic) food. Much of the poison is absorbed into the plant from its surfaces or imbedded via root absorption.

Conventional(non-organic) produce is a maker of sickness.

Opt for non-gmo organic produce. Eat it and feel your health and vitality return. Ask a vegan. They'll confirm these facts.

Moving on..

Meat.

Nearly ALL meat types introduce health and vitality killing parasites into our bodies. Parasites can consume almost all of the nutrition ingested by the infected host. Thus leaving the host in a state of malnutrition while the host thinks they're eating a nutritious diet. Parasites ROB their hosts of their health and vitality.

Most new infectious diseases like MRSA, the disease spreading through some locker rooms and gyms(Tampa Bay Bucs anyone?) is likely a result of factory farms and vaccinating farm animals. Diseases are mutating at an alarming rate and the evidence is pointing toward factory farms as the source of said mutations.

Frankenbeef, the cow itself is an unnatural species. The result of crossbreeding and hybridization. Grain fed beef is marbleized with saturated fat, hormoned, and vaccinated. The perfect unholy trinity for destroying health and vitality.

Pork is laden with parasitic worms and/or their eggs. Cooking does not kill all parasitic eggs. Google pork parasites. Populations that eat pork are populations with high parasitic infection rates.

Fish can also be a major parasitic source. Fish are also laden with the very poisonous mercury. Humans are fishing our oceans to death. Tuna could be an endangered or extinct species by 2020.

Common nutrient deficiencies of a meat-based SAD diet.

Magnesium
Silica
Folate
Potassium
Manganese
80+ trace minerals

As a 100% raw vegan, meaning I don't cook anything, I'm often asked, "B-B-But, where do you get your protein?"
My answer is, "Where the fuck do you think cows get their protein?" From the plants that they eat. Plants are by far the best sources of protein.

I then ask said meat-eater, "Where do you get your magnesium, folate, potassium from with your meat-based SAD diet?" Silence.

The best sources of protein
Spirullina (algae)
Chlorella (algae)
Hemp Seeds
Mung Beans(really, most beans)
Quinoa
Goji berries
Almonds
Cashews
Asparagus
Pumpkin seeds(most seeds, nuts are great protein sources)
Tempeh and other soy products

Trust me, protein is not an issue in raw vegan eating.

Transitioning to vegan really wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be. The health benefits come quickly. The feeling of vastly improved health and vitality come quickly. The aches and pains disappear. Indigestion, gone. No more acne or other skin ailments. No more high blood pressure. No more high cholesterol.

Mostly, I never have to look an animal in its eyes and watch the life leave its eyes so that I can eat it. I will never harm an animal for food ever again.

I will never harm my body by ingesting an animal product, ever again.

If humans were meant to digest meat, we would've evolved a stomach similar to a wolf's stomach. The stomach of a wolf produces acid that is 7-10 times stronger than a human's stomach acid. Meat requires that type of acidity to properly digest.

Meat is a human gut bacteria destroyer. We need our gut bacteria. It is quite possibly the most important aspect of our digestion. Any digestive ailment can immediately start the process of malnutrition.

Digestive disorders lead to heart disease, coronary plaque, cancer, diabetes, stroke, inflammation-related disorders, auto-immune disorders like arthritis etc, in other words, the diseases that kill most of us.

Treatment of these ailments is a multi-multi billion, perhaps trillion dollar industrial complex. Put a price tag on the cost of the detrimental effects of the SAD diet, the diseases listed above. How much does that cost our country?

So why is vegan so effective?

Re-mineralization. Vegan diets are high in nutrients/minerals that are deficient in the SAD diet.
Detoxification. Organic vegan foods are powerful body cleansers and detoxifiers.
High fiber. The intestinal cleaner.
Antioxidants. See above detox.
Plant phenols, sterols and other super-nutrient plant compounds.
Probiotic. Supports a healthy gut bacteria population.
Prebiotic. Feeds your healthy gut bacteria.
Anti-inflammatory. Inflammation is one of humankinds worst ailments.
Endless energy.
Increased libido.
Weight loss.
Vitality.

Ask a vegan if they are on any prescriptions. Most will say no. I've cured my pre-diabetes and high blood pressure and restored my health and vitality. I am also HIV positive and living very healthy. My immune system #'s are stronger than most non-hivers. I am not on HIV meds but my doc and I closely monitor my immune system.

Don't believe me about the benefits of raw organic vegan? Ask another vegan. They'll tell you many of the same things that I'm saying here.

We no longer need to be slaves to big pharma. 100% Raw Organic Vegan is my middle finger to the corporate big pharma industrial complex, to factory farms, to GMO and pesticide profiteers. The same big pharma/big food/big GMO/big poisoners that have helped destroy our democracy.

Food is politics. We have to make it a front and center issue in mainstream politics. We are what we eat and the SAD diets feeds us poison.

Food is more political than almost any other issue.

[el_bryanto]

1. Are we are allowed to eat cheese? nt

[livingwagenow]

2. As a vegan, I don't. Instead, give soy, almond or rice cheese a try...

You'll be surprised at just how good these healthy cheese alternatives are. They taste great, like the real thing IMO.

[Decaffeinated]

9. They can taste good...

... but they do not taste like "the real thing"

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

26. I have tried it and I didn't like it. The consistency is weird.

And it does not taste like any cheese I've ever eaten. Some things can't be duplicated, and real cheese is one of them.

[Dreamer Tatum]

55. If being a vegan is so great

why do so many vegan foods attempt to recreate the shape, texture, and taste of non-vegan foods?

Vegan cheese? Why would that even exist?

[Scout]

60. good point. n/t

[NuclearDem]

75. That's actually a fair question.

With the exception of the paleo diets and raw food vegans, a vegan diet is supposed to be about giving up meat, dairy, and other animal products, not giving up cheese, burgers, or other specific foods.

A big incentive for me going vegan is that I could ultimately eat the foods I was eating, but just using different ingredients. Plus, it's fun to have to find new ways to work around the animal products and make something that tastes just as good.

But yeah, that's a fair point.

[Dorian Gray]

222. I have the opposite feeling about the raw diet

I love some naturally raw food. But when it tries to recreate a meat or cheese dish, it tastes wrong to me. I have the same issue with molecular gastronomy. I love inventive and new foods, but I have trouble eating something that you have certain expectations for, and then it doesn't taste or have the texture you expect.

There are tons of great Vegan and Vegetarian restaurants near me, though. And I always have great meals there. I'm particularly fond of Asian vegetarian. Lots of Korean and Indian options. And there's a raw food place in my neighborhood that makes great cold pressed juices.

[Mariana]

89. Because there's money to be made selling those things.

I think it's weird that someone would decide to switch to eating only vegan food, and then go for the factory processed crap instead of eating real vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds. But some people do that, and there's money to be made selling it to them.

The vegans I know don't eat any of that processed stuff.

[handmade34]

168. because

habits die hard... eating healthy is a noble attempt and anything that makes it possible is a positive step...

and also in this society there are certain givens (things that the majority of people do/eat)... and at least mimicking a given makes it a bit more acceptable

[StrayKat]

251. Because

1. Most of the US is made up of carnists (people who chose to eat meat) who use the absence of a 'meaty' texture as an excuse for not going veg. Creating simulation products is a way of tamping down some of the objection and at least getting more people to try it.

2. Most people have very limited diets (even if they think they don't) and are squeamish about new foods. This is part of the reason so many young children have very limited diets of 4 or 5 staple foods that have to be coaxed into expanding. Although the list may have expanded to 10 or 15 different foods in adulthood, some still have a rather narrow diet they don't stray too far from. So, some products aim to make foods that still look, taste, or feel similar to more familiar foods for the new food phobic.

3. Vegans and their food choices are frequently bashed and therefore some vegans try to prove to everybody else that their food is good too. Often, the only way to do that is on terms that are familiar to the bashers, which means comparing meat burgers to bean burgers as opposed to aloo palak or ratatouille.

4. There is often a period of transition for vegetarians and vegans where they haven't fully adjusted to eating all the 'new' food. The simulated products can serve as crutches (or transitional foods) until new veg-eaters fully adjust. People who are long-time (for several years or more) vegetarians and vegans often don't consume transitional foods or only rarely. Once the taste buds really adjust to the new diet, these transitional foods and simulation products don't appeal quite the same way they did before.

5. Processed foods (vegan or not) are a money maker for the food industry. A small amount of labor can turn into a large amount of profit.

6. Just as with non-vegans, there are plenty of people who don't or won't cook or like the odd help from the grocery store. Convenience food finds its way into every diet (especially if you have kids).

7. Vegans get cravings, too. The same way people trying to eat any other diet do. Cheese/milk seems to be most common (although I and many others don't miss it at all). It may be due to the opioid effect of the casomorphins, which we may have found soothing as babies and probably still do today.

[yewberry]

268. Ask me that question after you've been served loose corn on a bun at a barbecue. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

190. Or, you could worry about what's on your own fork

And let other people worry about what's on theirs.

Just a "friendly suggestion!"

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

291. You are replying here to what the OP author wrote in reply to someone asking a question.

Your "friendly" remark would have made more sense as a reply to the OP itself, although even then it's not a great reply.

The OP was describing how they see choosing not to eat certain foods as a "FUCK YOU to corporate America," not to those who don't follow the vegan diet.

I'm not a vegan or veggie or any such thing, but I'm totally open to hearing about what might be the benefits of such diets. Buy then, I don't usually find information sharers "pompous" and "boring."

[Warren DeMontague]

300. Okay, awesome for you.

Somehow I've managed to make it through life figuring out things like a healthy diet for me (don't, actually, eat any red meat at all, little dairy, mostly plant-based, low fat, etc) without needing to be preached at.

Nor am I terribly inclined to get all up in someone's face and yammer about "THIS IS WHAT YOU MUST DO". Someone asks, I'm happy to tell them, with the qualifier: this is what has worked for me- your mileage may vary.

I don't know; the desire- much less the need- to have everyone do shit exactly they way I do it? Nope. Don't have it.

And that's really the bottom line, too. There's a broad chasm between "sharing information" and proselytizing or lecturing.

Some people respond well to lecturing, I guess. I'm not one of 'em.

[LanternWaste]

334. Nice lecture.

Nice lecture.

[Warren DeMontague]

336. Thanks!

I am fairly dogmatic on the general principle of letting people make up their own damn minds about stuff. (Which, I know, means I'm "critiquing" the favorite hobby of some of the more sour and miserable personalities around here. Waaah.)

Color me hypocritical in that way. I'm bigoted against bigots, too.

[Dorian Gray]

221. Nut cheese

is the reason I can't do Raw Vegan. It's too prolific, and I find the texture and taste disturbing.

I love some Vegan restaurants in NYC. But the raw part just hasn't been my forte.

[Codeine]

256. Even after being a vegan for 25 years I'm not mature enough to see the term "nut cheese"

without giggling like a 12-year-old boy.

[Dorian Gray]

276. There's that, too!

[SamYeager]

3. Vegetarian diets allow it.

Vegan diets do not.

I cook a few vegan recipes, and several vegetarian recipes but I still eat some meat and always will.

There is no way in hell I will ever become vegetarian, let alone vegan, and raw vegan would be my absolute last choice for a diet. Raw vegan just seems nasty to me.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. It would not be especially difficult for me to go vegetarian.

I don't eat much meat anyhow (and if I gave it up altogether my life would be a little easier because my cats would stop trying to steal the food off my plate). But I don't think I could go vegan. I have tried a number of vegan "dishes" and they all tasted to me like mulch and lichens glued together with library paste. So - to each his own.

[MineralMan]

5. It's entirely possible to create delicious vegan food.

I know that because I have prepared meals on many occasions for vegan friends. My other guests also enjoyed the meals.

Some vegans are not concerned with that, though, as I have learned by dining at their homes. I'm not sure I understand taking the the attitude that vegan meals should be unattractive, spartan and boring, but some seem to feel that way. A vegan diet does not need to be a diet of sacrifice. It's all a matter of choice, really.

Being a vegan is a choice. It's not necessarily the right choice for everyone, as many vegans seem to imply. It is possible to eat healthful, satisfying meals, though, under any dietary restrictions. All that is required is creativity and an understanding of food preparation.

I am not a vegan. I am an omnivore, but I choose my food reasonably carefully.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

10. I have no doubt that it's possible to prepare tasty vegan meals.

But I don't think I've ever had an intentionally vegan meal that was more than marginally edible. I have made my own meals that were not meant to be vegan but were merely comprised of stuff I had in the kitchen (roasted vegetables, for example) and they were very good. I wasn't trying to be vegan; I was just using what I had on hand and happened to be out of butter and cheese. But some of my culinary experiences elsewhere - especially at restaurants that purport to be vegan or to serve vegan dishes - made me truly believe I was eating mulch. Maybe there is an attitude among some that in order to be a truly committed vegan you have to suffer by eating bland, unattractive food with the consistency and flavor of styrofoam. I don't know, but it kind of seems that way at some of these places.

[MineralMan]

20. Well, genuine raw food vegans are extremely limited in

their food preparations. Since many foods present themselves much better after cooking, the raw factor makes it very difficult to present attractive, flavorful food. I'm afraid that I would not prepare a meal for a raw vegan as part of a mixed guest list. If cooking is out of the question, I'd present a healthful salad of organic, locally-grown produce, and leave it at that. I'd include nuts and seeds in that salad to add protein to it, but I would not attempt to make an entire meal that matched a raw vegan's dietary restrictions. That would not be fair to my other guests, and would limit what I could offer too much.

There's a certain asceticism in some raw vegan advocates. I'm not a big fan of that when it comes to food, which should be rewarding and pleasant in many ways for those who eat it. If confronted with an ascetic vegan meal, I am nonplussed, and will probably only eat enough to be polite, and then eat something else later.

I actually have been in that situation a couple of times. Presented with a wheat grass smoothie, a dish of raw, diced root vegetables, and another dish of sprouted, uncooked grains, I simply could not find my appetite, so I nibbled a bit and found a reason to leave not much later. That is ascetic eating, and I'm simply not into that at all. Taking pleasure in one's food is one of the simple pleasures we should all be able to enjoy. When I find people who embrace a raw vegan diet, I'm not surprised to find asceticism in other areas of their philosophies. I don't find much pleasure in their company.

They're welcome to their austerity, but I can't participate.

[SamYeager]

82. My favorite Vegan dishes are Indian

Love me some curries!

And I love the texture of a curry sauce made from coconut milk.

Heck, I made a completely vegan Aloo Gobi last night.

[MineralMan]

86. Indian cuisine is one I've never reallly explored.

I have little experience with it as an eater, either. It never seems that anyone I'm with is interested in it, so I haven't really explored it to any extent. I should, but I dislike eating alone.

[SamYeager]

88. Try cooking them yourself.

You'd be surprised at how easy a simple Vegan Curry is to make. I make them for my wife and I, then store leftovers in glass Lok-n_lok containers. Curries keep for a long time when sealed and refrigerated due to the lack of meat.

This is a simple recipe and tastes great. If spicy bothers you, cut back on the cayenne in the recipe (I use 1/2 tsp instead of what's called for and it's plenty spicy). Also watch what curry powder you use (most also have cayenne pepper in the mix). I use a sweet curry powder from Penzey's:

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/spicy-vegan-potato-curry/

[Codeine]

107. But make sure you open every window in the house

And keep the hood vent over your stove at full blast. The smell of curry will permeate everything if you don't.

[SamYeager]

110. I never turn on a burner without turning on the hood vent first, regardless of what I am cooking.

I love the smell fo curry.

[Blue_In_AK]

278. Are you familiar with Lisa's Vegetarian Kitchen?

She also has a lot of great Indian recipes.

http://foodandspice.blogspot.com

[handmade34]

171. Oh MineralMan

if I were in your area I would rush you to the nearest Indian restaurant and buy you a good meal... best stuff ever

[REP]

197. Some of my favorite foods are vegetarian or vegan Greek foods ...

... And I'm an omni. Though I agree, Indian cuisine has many, many delicious things to offer.

Damn. Now I'm hungry

[Codeine]

202. Aloo gobi is one of the great dishes on earth.

Serve it with some daal mahakni (veganized, of course -- no ghee) and a generous pile of garlic naan and I'm the happiest diner you can imagine.

[Blue_In_AK]

277. Indian food is WONDERFUL.

I love it so much, and cook it so often, that I actually have a curry tree growing under lights in my basement. I just had to top it because it hit the ceiling. I guess I probably have the only fresh curry leaves in Anchorage.

[athena]

236. Not all plant-based dishes taste that way.

It's true that some vegan restaurants specialize in bland food, but I doubt very much that most vegans eat that way. My husband and I switched to a plant-based diet eight months ago, and we are definitely not people who could tolerate food that tastes like mulch. (I used to be into things like sashimi, poke, and rare steak, and my husband liked hamburgers and pizza). The trick is to eat things that are originally vegan rather than try to recreate meat dishes using plants. Many Mediterranean, Middle-Eastern, and Indian dishes have no animal-based ingredients. Take a look, for example, at The Mediterranean Vegan Kitchen.

[Coyotl]

6. Especially if you move to South America!

Leaving corporate America is how you really say FU to all of it

[Dreamer Tatum]

7. Interesting how that word salad contains no reference to enjoying food.

I'd venture that a good 95% of people want to enjoy what they eat. I'd also suppose that 99.9999% of people aren't looking to make lunch a political statement. So you must be the .0001%.

I will go ahead and call bullshit on "food is politics." No, it isn't. Food is what people eat to survive. Your attitude is politics.

I'm sure this outs me as a shill of the fascistcorporatepharmablahblahblahwhatever. I just like to enjoy what I'm eating and why I'm eating it.

[livingwagenow]

11. If food isn't political why are food giants spending huge amounts..

opposing GMO labeling or spending huge amounts opposing GMO bans?

Food is as political as any other hot-button issue.

[Dreamer Tatum]

13. That's economics, not politics.

Enjoy whatever you're calling food.

[Codeine]

19. I love food and love eating

and I've been vegan for most of my life. Of course, I don't make it a point to post things like the OP either, so. . .

[whatchamacallit]

29. My enjoyment of what I eat increased when I went vegan

Partly because of the quality and freshness of the products, and partly because taste satisfaction is based on actual flavors, not on saturating your taste buds with fat, salt, sugar, and food additives. There's also a mind-body factor; the better you feel the better it tastes and the more you crave it. It may take a little while to transition, but once you do you're not likely to regret it.

[Retrograde]

142. "I like vegetables" is a rarely cited reason for being a vegan

or even a vegetarian, in my experience. If people want to make me a squash risotto with toasted nuts or a home-made hummus with homegrown greens on the side or a rustic corn, squash and bean stew with some fresh bread - I'll say thanks and dig in. There are a lot of tasty vegan dishes around and I'll happily eat them - as long as they're not served with a side of politics. If I invite someone to dinner and they say they don't eat particular foods I try to accommodate them, but I don't ask why.

[StrayKat]

252. Lol,

This is what I usually say in a restaurant setting if someone asks, "I just like vegetables." It's true and most people don't feel the need to press the issue any further.

[handmade34]

175. ...

"Food is what people eat to survive" ...I would guess that the vast majority of people don't go to the grocery store or restaurant and buy food for its nutritional value... most go for taste, cravings, texture, fullness, smell, associated memories, etc.. and the corporate world of food processors know all too well...

I try to eat vegetarian/vegan with as little processed food as possible... I love the taste of my food and enjoy every bit of what I eat

I believe that if more people made food a political statement we would be a whole heck of a lot healthier (and ultimately happier)

[noamnety]

227. "Food is politics." Yes, it is.

I buy meat when it's on sale and enjoy it, but I can acknowledge that food is politics, as much as "family values" or health care or paying a living wage is politics.

Politics is all about finding a balance between how one groups desires, greed or rights affect another groups rights, and how our policies support one group or another in that balance, whether it's through boycotts at the citizen level, or laws at the government level.

Any time there's that tradeoff in rights, one end of the spectrum is the libertarian one - where any one individual's desires should be met, regardless of the impact on others. And the opposite end of the spectrum is regulation to ensure the rights and health of others aren't harmed. I eat meat, I drive a car, I use gas and electric instead of solar. Sometimes my showers are too long. I'm not claiming I'm a saint. But I'd be in a serious state of denial if I couldn't at least admit they have a negative impact on the environment, and thus on communities and people in other areas, either now or in the future.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

292. There is a political aspect to much if not all of life. Clearly, Monsanto's power and influencea

are political. And by buying and eating certain foods, we do support certain power and financial bases. You can't deny the politics involved.

If more people understood more about how our food choices affect the power structures in this country, they might choose to make lunch a political statement.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

305. Is word salad vegan? I hear it comes from animals. n/t

[hobbit709]

8. Whatever!

[NuclearDem]

12. AutoVeganRec.

That's one of the seven arguments I use to convince people to go vegan (or at least vegetarian).

1. Your diet is killing you.
2. How would you react if your pets were forced into the kind of conditions factory farm animals have to deal with?
3. Factory farming and meat production does more to contribute to climate change than all the cars on the planet.
4. Factory farms mistreat their workers and don't pay a living wage.
5. 99% of what you eat right now can be replaced with a vegan substitute.
6. Don't be Big Ag's chump.
7. You'll feel a lot better.

Thanks for the thread. We can use all the vegan advocacy we can get

[livingwagenow]

15. Great list! 2 really stands out but all points are so, so true!

[Dreamer Tatum]

17. And that, friends, is why there aren't all that many vegans.

Haughtiness and shaming doesn't even work with dogs.

[NuclearDem]

21. I don't shame or get a bug up my ass when it comes to this, though.

Just when people ask me why I went vegan in the first place, those are the reasons I give. It also sometimes happens to convince others to at least give it a try.

Again, they're the reasons I went vegan. I'm not arrogant enough to assume everyone's situation is even remotely close to mine, and if people aren't able to change their diet for whatever reason, physical or financial, it's not my place to shame them.

Most of the veg- community I know doesn't play the Purity Olympics--there's no gold medal for being super ultra vegan or going paleo. It's all about baby steps--cutting back on meat just one day a week is as worthy an achievement as giving it up entirely.

Don't mix up actual vegans/vegetarians with the stereotypical holier-than-thou assholes the media makes us all out to be. A person's health and welfare comes first, not veganism/vegetarianism.

[Dreamer Tatum]

54. Every vegan I'm aware of IRL is a sanctimonious asshole.

But there's some sample selection there: they've made me aware through lectures and shaming and through ruining get togethers by demanding to know not only if there is no animal product in whatever is served, but whether the vegetables were serenaded with arias from Carmen while they were gently pulled from the ground by Maya Angelou.

Not all assholes are vegans, and not all vegans are assholes. But...

[NuclearDem]

71. I know what you mean.

I've found the right way to handle that is to let the host know beforehand about your diet, then ask if there's anything you personally can make or pick up that would make it easier for them as the host.

Unsolicited and right in the middle of dinner is not the place.

[dionysus]

167. ...while they were gently pulled from the ground by Maya Angelou....

[chervilant]

217. On the reverse side of that coin,

every meat eater I'm aware of IRL is a sanctimonious -- often obese -- heart attack just waiting to happen.

(See how that comes across? You prolly fit my paradigm as much as I fit yours: not at all. I've only been vegan a short while -- two years this February -- and I don't try to inflict my Veganism on my omnivore friends.)

[Dreamer Tatum]

240. That isn't analogous to what I said in the least.

Fail.

[chervilant]

265. Analogous?

Well, that's good, since I wasn't going for "analogous." I read your transparency page after I tried to point out your bigotry, and it's pretty clear that you revel in posting derisive, insulting comments.

IRL, I have found that those who are negative about Veganism are those who would benefit most from eating healthier foods. Some of these unfortunate individuals will have type 2 diabetes, and heart disease before they decide to limit or eliminate animal products from their diets.

[livingwagenow]

23. A doctor saying that you need a triple bypass often does though..

Getting a diagnosis for high blood pressure, diabetes, cancer, heart disease can ground a person in reality, rather quickly.

Dreamer, have you ever been diagnosed with anything?

[AtheistCrusader]

287. Dunno about Dreamer, but I was in pre-hypertension.

I

A) Started Running
B) Started eating more meat, less carbs.

Problem solved. Triglycerides? Excellent. LDL? Textbook perfect. Blood pressure? Again, Textbook perfect.

To each his own.

[Zorra]

31. I guess that depends on a person's development of conscience and ability to empathize.

It certainly wouldn't work with a sociopath.

Elizabeth: "Hey, do you think killing all those Iraqi babies is really a good idea?

George: "Stop shaming me, you haughty witch!"

[el_bryanto]

33. Now that's an interesting response -

So you are saying that if we aren't shamed by that list into becoming vegan we are sociopaths?

Bryant

[Zorra]

40. No. Just that some people are more sensitive to acts of cruelty than others are, and that

a sociopath is the extreme example of insensitivity to acts of cruelty.

For instance, liberals were horrified by the maiming and death that Bush's war caused to the Iraqi people and wanted to stop it, while conservatives couldn't understand why liberals were complaining about it.

[el_bryanto]

41. Well in fairness to the Republicanoids - many of them believed that we were insensitive to Saddams

actions against his own people - that didn't move us. And they generally don't believe or focus as much on the maiming and death that we are causing; they think such actions are overblown in the media - either not happening at all or not happening very much.

But that does get us off topic - do you think that those of us who eat meat should be more sensitive to the acts of cruelty that our meat eating are causing?

Bryant

[Zorra]

51. Yes, I believe that human beings should be sensitive to the suffering we cause to each other and the

creatures that share this planet with us.

I don't have any real problem with people eating meat. I do have a problem with torturing animals that are raised for human consumption.

Do you believe the slaughter of 500,000 Iraqis was somehow justifiable, and that the US had the right to slaughter them?

[el_bryanto]

65. I think the Iraq war was a mistake if that's what you are asking. Slaughter's a pretty loaded word.

As for your point on meat - if people stopped eating meat wouldn't people stop torturing animals that are raised for human consumption?

Bryant

[Zorra]

72. Sorry, your question is rhetorical. How is it *genuinely* relevant to this conversation? nt

[el_bryanto]

79. Interesting response

Ok you bring up the Iraq war and grill me on that - but my question isn't relevant?

At any rate let me ask it another way. If I go to a restaurant and order a hamburger or a chicken sandwich, I can be reasonably sure that it was not raised on a family farm (unless I go to specific restaurants that work that way), and thus I am guilty of eating meat that has probably lived in an unpleasant way. Is that accurate? And if so aren't I culpable for the pain caused to that specific animal?

By the same token if I buy meat at a grocery store aren't I in the same boat (again, unless I specifically buy from a family farm)?

Bryant

[Zorra]

85. Still rhetorical. Yes, it is your choice to eat meat from animals that were tortured

and support corporations that torture animals raised for human consumption.

BTW, meat from animals that were not tortured is readily available in most areas of the US, as are eggs from free range chickens.

I asked you the Iraq question because I wanted indications of how conservative, and how sincere, you are.

[el_bryanto]

87. Ah - did I pass your little test? nt

[Zorra]

109. No. nt

[el_bryanto]

115. Story of my life. nt

[RobinA]

174. You Are

comparing Iraqis to cattle in this argument?

[Zorra]

322. *sigh*

[LanternWaste]

335. Seemed to me the poster was merely comparing the conscious and inhumane deaths we in one instance, r

Seemed to me the poster was merely comparing the conscious and inhumane deaths we in one instance, rationalize; yet in another instance, tolerate if not condone. Neither comparing, nor contrasting the specific targets of our humanity at all...

[Codeine]

38. You're really not helping. NT

[HappyMe]

44. Yeah.

That kind of over the top stuff is a good way to drive people far away.

[handmade34]

179. doesn't sound like shaming

the list is mostly FACTS and 1 opinion (You'll feel a lot better)

a standard diet here does contribute to disease
factory farm animals are subject to cruel conditions
#3 (which I think is the most important) factory farming does more to create climate change than all the cars
a lot of factory farms do pay a low wage and treat workers unfairly
food processors do exploit consumers

I think most people just want to share a good thing that they have discovered... I see that as a positive

[uppityperson]

94. Seems like most of that is againsy Factory Farming. Do you include factory veg farming?

Eat as local and varied as possible.

[NuclearDem]

118. Absolutely.

I try to do as much local shopping as possible, but some things are unavoidable. The point is to just do whatever you can. Absolute purity is impossible.

[RobinA]

165. Vegans

do nothing BUT advocate. Kinda makes me wonder...

[NuclearDem]

169. In a way it's no different than any cause that's not well understood.

Some are more aggressive than others, but if someone asks me about my diet, I just try to answer the best I can.

Hard to not advocate when someone asks you.

[cui bono]

241. Makes you wonder about what? n/t

[RobinA]

281. Makes Me Wonder

why many vegans find it necessary to push their food choices so adamantly.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

293. Well, if you read the OP, you might get a pretty good idea of why someone who believes

those things would push them adamantly.

[HappyMe]

14. If I ate raw vegan food,

I would be really crabby and would probably be saying 'fuck you' to everyone in sight.

No thank you.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

24. The "raw" part is what I don't get.

There are a lot of ways of preparing vegetables for an excellent meal, but they mostly involve actually cooking them. While I understand the rationale for not eating meat, I don't get the notion that all vegetables have to be eaten raw. Tomatoes, fine (though technically tomatoes are fruit). But squash? Lima beans? (not that I would even eat those cooked) And please don't tell me to eat algae, not gonna happen. And tofu tastes like your own tongue. There is a raw vegan restaurant in my city, and eating there did nothing but cause a desperate craving for a big hunk of prime rib. Seems to me the vegan movement would get more converts by persuading people that vegan food can actually taste good (creative cooking can help). The OP's sales pitch has some good points, but it will take more than a rant about the evils of factory farming to persuade a lot of people to eat uncooked algae.

[HappyMe]

25. Yeah, I'm not eating algae or tofu.

I don't like lima beans either.

Why the hell would anybody go to a raw veggie restaurant? Isn't that just a damn salad bar? Cost is a big factor for a bunch of people as far as organics go. I think people eating more vegetables is good, even if they can't afford the organics.

We have cut back on meat, but I don't think we'll ever give it up entirely. I like meat, and I like food that tastes good. The vegan cupcake I tried was nasty. There was another dish I tried that was kind of like lawn clippings and leaves.

To each his own.

[Codeine]

32. There's really nothing strange about tofu.

It's a food product with worldwide popularity and has been around a long time. I am continually mystified by America's tofu hate.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

34. It's not strange; it just doesn't taste very good.

Actually, it doesn't taste much like anything at all, but to many people (including me) its consistency is weird and unpleasant.

[uppityperson]

116. Knitting.

[HappyMe]

36. You can have my share.

It has a strange mouth feel thing for me. I don't know - it's just a weird, flavorless glob to me.

[Codeine]

39. It can be flavorless, sort of like an egg white, I guess.

Properly prepared it becomes so much more. Even my omni kids love it.

[NuclearDem]

50. Exactly. I never eat tofu on its own.

Consistency-wise and with the right spices and seasonings, it can make one hell of a burger.

Though I still prefer black bean burgers.

[Dreamer Tatum]

57. OK, as much as I ridicule vegans, firm tofu can be really really good. nt

[uppityperson]

98. I like tofu but it is not Raw as the OP advocates

It is processed. Used and prepared properly, like any food, it can be very good though.

[Codeine]

102. Raw foodism is fucking stupid.

Cooking food makes it more digestible.

Raw food vegans are the Hezbollah wing of vegetarianism, to paraphrase Anthony Bourdain.

[uppityperson]

104. Yup. Homo sapiens are not cows.

[uppityperson]

156. Studying 3rd century history.

[NuclearDem]

166. I'm trollin' n they tryna catch me fightin' dirty

[GoCubsGo]

207. Yep, and some nutrients are more available via cooking.

The lycopene in tomatoes comes to mind. You get more of it in cooked tomatoes over the raw ones.

I could probably live with a vegan diet. I usually will eat at least a few vegan meals a week as it is. But, have it raw? No thanks. One would think that it's really difficult to get sufficient protein, too. Raw beans do not appeal to me in the least. I think it would be a great way to lose weight, as it would cause me to lose all interest in eating.

[uppityperson]

106. Pressing flowers.

[HappyMe]

113. Good grief!

Your post kind of confirms my theory about raw vegans being crabby.

And yeah, to each his own. I'm not forcing my way of eating on you, don't force your's on me. Easy enough concept to grasp.

[HappyMe]

318. Oh, you're back!

Again.

[hrmjustin]

319. Do you not have better things to do?

[Codeine]

111. I wish you lived near me.

My fiancée makes a vegan cupcake worth killing for. Just yesterday her dentist waived a $280 bill for a filling in exchange for two dozen cupcakes delivered on short notice. Seriously, these things are amazing. They'd totally change your mind -- at least on the issue of vegan baked goods.

[HappyMe]

120. I'm sure they are good.

I don't eat a lot of baked goods usually.

At least I tried the thing, a lot of people at the party wouldn't.

[NuclearDem]

122. Vegan cupcakes?!

Would I be imposing if I asked you to PM me the recipe?

[Codeine]

125. No problem. I'll get the info this afternoon. Nt

[chervilant]

218. Me, too!!

Please, please, please!

[BuddhaGirl]

239. My I have the cupcake recipe too?

Thank you!!

[sweetloukillbot]

255. There was a raw food restaurant near my house

They offered a "taco" that was nuts and tomatoes wrapped in a lettuce leaf.
To each their own I say - I can enjoy South Indian food even though I'm very much a carnivore, and there is a vegan Chinese restaurant nearby that is pretty good. But nuts and tomatoes wrapped in a lettuce leaf is not a taco by any stretch of the imagination.

[MineralMan]

61. I love lima beans, both fresh and dried.

I especially like dried limas, cooled for hours with some ham and onions. The result is exquisite comfort food that feeds both body and soul. Fresh lima beans are also excellent. Yum!

[Dreamer Tatum]

63. You should read "A Lesbian Appetite" by Dorothy Allison. nt

[MineralMan]

67. Oof. I'm so far behind in my reading that I doubt

I'll be able to get to that one soon. Can you tell me what it says about lima beans? That would be fascinating.

But, speaking of books, when I was a pre-teen, I read a book with the title, We Took to the Woods. In it was a very lengthy recipe and detailed directions for making traditional baked beans. I was so entranced with the author's description that I remembered it for many years. Finally, when I was a big grown-up adult, I retrieve my parents' copy of the book and made the author's recipe, following her detailed, lengthy process to the letter. I even bought a cast-iron dutch oven for the job, since that was called for in her description.

The result, made for a large gathering, was extraordinary. The entire pot of baked beans was gone in a flash. The process, however, of making them takes all day, so I've rarely made that recipe since. Perhaps I'll dig out the dutch oven and do it again soon.

[Dreamer Tatum]

68. It's a story about comfort foods. Southern comfort foods.

And I say that at the risk of disapproval from the superior folk of the North.

[MineralMan]

73. Ah...then maybe I'll look for the book.

Comfort food is almost synonymous with southern cuisine, I think. Other regions, though, have their own comfort foods. New England is a favorite region for me when I'm looking for comfort food recipes.

Those baked beans are from Maine. I have several favorites from the Northeast, as well as many from the south. I also have a number of comfort food recipes from outside of the United States. Comfort foods are my favorites for feeding large groups, and are a specialty of my cooking efforts.

[uppityperson]

103. Huh. Deranged minerals? Huh. How do you feel about drones? Stamp collecting.

[maddezmom]

127. Nice to see you again

Serious question....why do you stalk UP everytime you sign up?

[uppityperson]

144. To be fair, I started it this time. Trying to come up with a more positive hobby for her.

Maybe mountain climbing.

[maddezmom]

151. LOL

One thing is for sure.....she will be back.

[uppityperson]

157. And....She is.

[greatauntoftriplets]

155. Tatting might be a good suggestion!

[maddezmom]

161. Stay classy LG

[uppityperson]

163. Tatting struck a nerve?

[maddezmom]

170. I guess

[bluestate10]

204. The OP presented a point of view. That person may be opposed to some sources of food, regardless

of their purity.

The term "factory farming" leaves me cold. If a farmer or farming entity grew vegetables in soil, used only environmentally healthy, plant based organic fertilizers and pest controllers, used only seeds that have a documented organic heritage, but grew the vegetables in a climate and moisture controlled greenhouse and used grow lights at times to provide a scientifically proven array of light for plants, I wonder what the "pure food" people would say. Would the fact that the farmer or farming company produce safe, healthy food that all citizens could afford to buy matter to the "pure food" crowd? One large issue that I have with some "pure food" is that their crusade involves only what is best for them and a thin circle of friends, they are fundamentally elitists. There are some "pure food" adherents that set up organic gardens in poor neighborhoods and provide advice to residents, those people deserve notice because they get that to be truly effective in spreading their view on food, they need to rub elbows with and work with the less fortunate.

[Codeine]

16. Please understand that not all vegans

are as sanctimonious and woo-oriented as the OP. Some of us just really like animals and don't want to eat them.

[EOTE]

27. I'm not seeing any woo there.

I'm an omnivore, but I know that my diet is unhealthy and I appreciate vegans/vegetarians for picking up slack and compensating for the difficulty I have in changing my diet. I believe the world would, overall, be a much better place if a sizable chunk of the population switched to a vegetarian diet. I also think that the current American diet is incredibly unhealthy and that can be seen by our average life span pretty much being maintained while new science and technology should be keeping us alive much longer. Whatever disagreements you have with the OP, I really can't see any 'woo' there to speak of.

[mathematic]

49. Here's a few examples of woo from the OP

-" the cow itself is an unnatural species."

-Silica deficiency

-Humans weren't meant to digest meat.

Virtually none of the things said in the OP is correct. It's frustrating because it's presented as a coherent synthesis so it has the air of being authoritative and well-researched. It's still utter nonsense. I get the same feeling reading the OP that I get when I read about other common alternate realities: "End the Fed"/real money, 9/11 truthers, etc.

[EOTE]

56. Cows really aren't a natural species.

Just like modern bananas aren't really a natural fruit, or today's wheat isn't a natural grain, but the result of many, many years of genetic manipulation. Whether or not that's bad is a whole other story, but I don't think it's wrong to call cows unnatural. I think it's fairly accurate to call any animal that's been domesticated as long as cattle have "unnatural".

[Dreamer Tatum]

59. Then dogs and cats are even more "unnatural." nt

[EOTE]

62. At least as unnatural.

Whereas cats and dogs have been bred for thousands of years for domesticity and small size, cows have been bred to be docile and contain lots of tasty meat. And yes, I don't think that dogs or cats are very natural in that regard either. Certainly when you see one next to a tiger or a wolf.

[mathematic]

78. That's the opening

When "natural" is used to refer to "wild" or "untouched by human hands", you're one appeal to nature fallacy away from rejecting all of science. (Indeed, the OP does make this appeal to nature for cows.)

Put a herd of cows in a large meadow and they'll do alright even without human intervention. I do understand the sense you're using it, that these species exist as a result of their interactions with humans. I just don't think that voids their naturalness.

[EOTE]

81. At what point is something unnatural?

Have you seen what a wild banana looks like? Nothing like the type you're used to seeing in the grocery store. They have very thick, fibrous skins that are very difficult to peel. They have massive seeds which you can't consume without issue like the type in the stores. They have far less sweet and far firmer flesh. The modern banana is nothing like the bananas of the wild. Is it suitable to call them 'natural'? Not in my mind. That's not to say that 'natural' is synonymous with 'good' or the converse (I'd certainly rather eat a grocery store banana). As of 2010, scientists have actually created life from raw materials. These cells could continue to live without the assistance of the scientists given the right conditions, would it be appropriate to call these cells natural? Again, it says nothing about the inherent virtues of a plant or animal to call it natural, but at some point, things do become unnatural.

[trotsky]

108. Eyeglasses are unnatural.

Tooth care is unnatural. Dental work is especially unnatural. If a tooth has a problem, you should just let it decay and fall out - naturally!

Taking any kind of medication for a fever - even if you're chewing on "natural" willow bark - is unnatural.

It's unnatural to take medical steps to save the lives of preemies.

While you say you're not equating "natural" with "good," you do seem to be making some really interesting judgments on the validity of things you deem "unnatural." Makes me a little nervous.

[EOTE]

123. Yes, all those things are unnatural.

And I wouldn't want to be without any of them. You say that I'm making " interesting judgments on the validity of things" I find unnatural, but you don't feel inclined to provide any of those judgements. That seems rather silly to me. And my ability to discern unnatural and natural things makes you nervous? Wow, that's a degree of magnitude more silly. I think that says more about the folks who take the view that if anything is living, it's by necessity natural.

[trotsky]

130. Your defensiveness confirms my thoughts.

It's not your ability to make a distinction that makes me nervous, as I said it's the judgments you are making AFTER making the distinction. Creeps me out - just a step away from declaring the handicapped "unnatural" or things like that. I really hope you wouldn't take it that far, but the judgmentalism is strikingly similar.

[EOTE]

134. MY defensiveness?

You're the one who's throwing around accusations without even attempting to back them up. Oh well, since we're going to play that game. I find it extremely creepy that you don't believe in calculus or mathematics in general. I mean, I'm assuming you went to school, so you really don't have an excuse. I consider mathematics to be the language of life, and you don't believe in math at all. How can I have a serious discussion with someone who's able to deny objective fact so easily? What's to prevent a person who doesn't believe in math from declaring whole groups of people worthless and worthy of death? The way I see it, the math deniers are just one step away from bringing about the next holocaust. It's just sickening. Tsk tsk.

On edit: I don't suppose you can actually provide one of these "judgements" I'm making about unnatural things, can you? I mean, I don't want to get in the way of an idiotic rant (I enjoy those as much as anyone), but occasionally I like to see a tiny bit of substance in the criticisms I receive.

[trotsky]

140. Yep, yours.

Take care.

[EOTE]

143. So, not even going to attempt to provide one of my "judgements"?

You know, one of those judgements that was the entire basis of your silly little critique? You know, there's a whole class of people who make idiotic assertions without the slightest bit of information to back them up. I like to call them republicans. It's a shame that we see the same kind of scientific illiteracy here.

[trotsky]

147. The most glaring one is judging me to be anti-science, which is incredibly laughable.

The rest of your attacks aren't worth my time. I'll let other readers of this thread decide about the validity of my observations.

[RobinA]

177. Don't Overlook

those vitality sucking parasites and gut destroying bacteria, or gut bacteria destroying parasites, whatever it was. Woooooooo

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

295. Here...

Let me google that for you.

[Sissyk]

70. We know that. But, since you are

so nice about it, I won't tell the OP that I'll eat his portion of meat. lol!

I am nowhere near a vegan, not even a vegetarian, but I do like tofu fixed a couple of ways. I don't stay away from something just because it's a "vegan" food. I try, and usually like, everything.

*Edit because I was an idiot.

[REP]

200. “Animals are my friends...and I don't eat my friends.” - George Bernard Shaw

Who, if he were alive today, I believe would be vegan.

If you haven't read any of his writings on ethical vegetarianism and like that sort of thing, you might enjoy them.

[snooper2]

323. what about insects?

Cricket Risotto?





Mealworm Burger?

[cali]

18. No thank you. Food is more than just politics

way, way more. It's love and family and friends and history and passion and skill and much much more.

So, to my diet. I don't eat much meat at all. Once in a while I indulge. My son brought me some delicious local, organic heirloom pork from down the road. literally down the road where it's raised.

For $3 a dozen I can buy local organic eggs.

Raw, vegan food? Yeah, I can cook it and I've gotten some good recipes from this guy:

http://www.therawchef.com/

I love to cook. Really cook, with you know, heat. I'm not giving that up.

[Zorra]

22. I've been vegetarian for decades and have been extraordinarily healthy.

Going ROV would be a challenge for me, I love cheese, and I love to cook my vegetarian dishes.

I would like to try going totally ROV, to see what effect it would have on me, but I'm way too lazy to do all the work of creating a new diet. If someone were to buy all the ingredients and prepare the food for me, I'd start tomorrow.

As it is, I'm really very healthy and happy as a vegetarian, so I don't feel some dire need to go vegan at my age. But I have no doubt that a vegan diet would be superior. Much of what we are is what we eat and drink. I was an organic farmer at one time, and one important thing I learned from growing plants is this:

By providing the best conditions possible for a plant to thrive, nutrient balance, pH, correct soil texture, sufficient water, optimum light and temperature, etc, I would get the healthiest, most productive plants possible.

Really, it's a no brainer. Put the right stuff into your body, and it will help maximize your personal physical, mental, and emotional potential.

[Silent3]

28. If turning your diet into a giant "FUCK YOU" is a big priority in your life...

...you might need a little more fiber.

[JVS]

263. I think the ultimate goal is to turn one's life into a giant "FUCK YOU" directed at various...

people and institutions.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

296. One could say that the goal of the Democratic Party is a giant FU

to the Republican Party, so, the FU to corporate America is not really as out there as you seem to see it.

[Joel thakkar]

30. Being vegan is difficult

I am vegetarian as i love milk, cheese etc..

[Codeine]

203. It's a breeze once you've done it for a few weeks.

I decided to start eating a vegan diet in '89, and I've never felt the urge to stop or found it all that challenging. In fact, as time goes on it gets easier thanks to all the new vegan products coming onto the market -- Daiya cheese and Gardein meats for the win!

[Decaffeinated]

35. The internet responds....

http://wilwheaton.tumblr.com/post/62076391046/im-just-putting-these-together-for-historical

Edit: One more.. same joke...

[alphafemale]

242. Spot the Vegan.

[SidDithers]

37. Mitchell and Webb...

Sid

[closeupready]

80. LOL, that was funny. You actually made me laugh, for a first.

[FSogol]

90. "It's an ethical thing. I don't think humans should be treated like this."

[HappyMe]

101. That was excellent!

Pigs doing secretarial work on the farm.

[tillikum]

42. good post except the meat part.

i love grass fed beef and it would be IMPOSSIBLE to keep my significant muscle tone @ 6'2" 225 pounds without it.

to me, the whole vegan thing is tribalism by proxy but i totally understand the effects of inflammation. i just disagree wholeheartedly that a no meat diet is either the answer or necessary.

as to GMO, and the incredible power of food politics, I couldn't agree and support you more.

[NuclearDem]

66. Is it a protein issue?

That's actually one of the most common things I get asked as a vegan, where I get my protein.

If you're concerned about muscle mass, try switching out some of the meat you eat with meals that are heavy in beans, nuts, or quinoa. I wouldn't eat these raw, of course, but having salads or casseroles heavy in these kinds of foods are great protein substitutes for meat.

Or try having cashews, peanuts, or sunflower kernels as a snack throughout the day. High in protein and tastes great.

[Decaffeinated]

83. They do not however taste like ribeye....

[wickerwoman]

178. It can be an iron absorbtion issue as well.

I went vegetarian for about six months and have never been so miserable in my life. I get anemic quite quickly and hate taking pills/supplements every day unless medically necessary (i.e. I'm in extreme pain or fighting off a life-threatening disease).

Most people absorb iron from animal sources better than they absorb iron from plant sources. The last three doctors I've seen and had blood tests with all recommended that I eat more red meat.

Vegetarian/veganism works great for some people and not that well for others. At the moment, I do about 40% vegetarian meals and then fish, chicken or red meat for the rest and it balances out pretty nicely. Mediterranean/Asian diets seem to have it figured out. Meat as a flavoring and stacks of veggies.

[NuclearDem]

182. I know how that goes.

My sister has the same problem, and though she tries really hard to keep down on her meat consumption, she has to have some every now and then.

[athena]

237. Iron deficiency is less of a problem for vegans than for vegetarians.

The problem with ovo-lacto vegetarianism is that you tend to live on eggs, milk, and cheese, none of which contain much iron. When you go vegan, you eat many more vegetables and beans (which suddenly taste better when they're no longer competing with animal products), which are richer in iron.

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/iron.php

The reason for the satisfactory iron status of many vegans may be that commonly eaten foods are high in iron, as Table 1 shows. In fact, if the amount of iron in these foods is expressed as milligrams of iron per 100 calories, many foods eaten by vegans are superior to animal-derived foods. This concept is illustrated in Table 2. For example, you would have to eat more than 1700 calories of sirloin steak to get the same amount of iron as found in 100 calories of spinach.

Another reason for the satisfactory iron status of vegans is that vegan diets are high in vitamin C. Vitamin C acts to markedly increase absorption of non-heme iron. Adding a vitamin C source to a meal increases non-heme iron absorption up to six-fold which makes the absorption of non-heme iron as good or better than that of heme iron 4.

[tillikum]

192. im really sensitive to lectins as they arent really a genomic food for me.

so a more raw food/paleo diet has been optimum for my body to metabolize. as well as i work extra hard to stay away from all GMO anything.

My food bills are high lol but there is a huge (no pun intended) difference.

[bunnies]

91. impossible?

[NuclearDem]

124. Pretty much, yeah.

The people who convinced me to go vegan are themselves vegans who do Cross Fit and medal at international Jiu-Jitsu tournaments.

[bunnies]

136. It drives me nuts when people imply that vegans are scrawny weaklings.

Especially when theres so much evidence to the contrary. I used to be married to one of those "12 eggs for breakfast" bodybuilder types. His head was as thick as his muscles were.

[NuclearDem]

141. I think it's because of the myth that protein only comes in sufficient quantities from meat.

But anyone who eats meals with quinoa, soy, or sufficient amounts of nuts and beans knows that's not true.

[bunnies]

145. Or that damn protien powder.

Its a real cash cow for manufacturers. Cant have people believing they can be big with out it.

[HappyMe]

128. I don't find that attractive at all.

[bunnies]

131. I think ripped is nice but theres such a thing as too big.

And since that poster said it would be impossible to maintain his muscle mass, I thought I'd show him what some vegan bodybuilders look like.

[HappyMe]

132. Those guys eat vegans?

Sorry, it was just too easy.

[bunnies]

138. lol.

Thats a whole other thread.

[Dreamer Tatum]

172. Steroids are vegan? nt

[bunnies]

191. Theyre all vegan.

Cant speak to the roids part.

[tillikum]

193. built like number 2 but probably taller and no

a pure veggie diet doesn't work for me. i just can't consume enough safe raw food proteins that my body can use for muscle repair and maintain healthy serum T levels (ie: no soy or dairy protein supplements)

[bunnies]

225. Diet aside...

Good for you, man. Seriously. I know how much hard work and dedication it takes to achieve and maintain a physique like that. Except this one guy I know. He eats garbage (tons of it), never works out, and is built like a brick shit house. Screw him.

[Codeine]

117. There's a vegan bodybuilder who posts here

regularly. And a plethora of others who build and maintain slabs of impressive musculature while eating a vegan diet.

And since that hobby is already kind if a pain the the ass in regard to what you eat, I doubt doing it as a vegan is significantly more of a bitch than doing it as an omnivore.

[tillikum]

194. its really hard as a chicken/turkey/beef eater too!

[flvegan]

212. Is that me?

I can't and won't respond to a little guy at 6'2" 225 lbs who can't grasp nutrition. Probably thinks he's huge. Funny, that.

[tillikum]

215. thats ok. my workout partner is an ex-SO1 SEAL and 4 days a week

he keeps me pretty damned squared away.

funny thing though is just watching the meatheads hit the rack and all their little man insecurities ooze out. they can't even hold eye contact on little skinny ol me or my buddy (especially not him, got the 1000 yard stare in full effect).

I think we scare em. same thing with the excessive tattoo's. we joke all the time about how the guys who aren't badass or don't feel badass always seem to need to look badass. or have a stereotypical pitbull or rottie as an ego prop. what a joke. it doesn't really work, but hey, it's all they have ya know?

[flvegan]

224. I feel bad for them.

I see them too. I admit I have a certain silly fondness in comedy for the guys who are/wannabe/thinktheyare ex-supermilitarykingkong and/or "have that buddy" who feel the need to garner opinion they conclude as facts on folks about which they have no clue whatsover, grasping to stereotypes even though they're nothing short of a walking stereotype themselves.

Good times.

[tillikum]

226. problem with sterotypes is

that they come from SOMEWERE ya know?

i guess thats why i have always preferred to take the blend in approach. i'm already a lightning rod for losers, why would i want to ever make that worse than it already is.

good times indeed.

[Arkana]

43. You're not gonna convert me, fellas--I didn't climb to the top of the food chain

to eat carrots.

[Spider Jerusalem]

45. ...

"organic heirloom raw vegan"? Congratulations on your lifestyle choice, I'm glad you're happy about it, but I don't think you realise that this is not really a feasible option for most people. If it is an option for you that means you can afford it ("organic" etc etc is usually more expensive, frequently significantly so); live in an area where it's available (due to demand that's usually going to be an urban area, and more frequently the West Coast and Northeast); food isn't just a political issue, it's also socioeconomics and geography.

You can get parasites and nasty illnesses from improperly washed vegetables; if you're cooking meat properly? You won't get parasites.

MRSA exists because of overuse and overprescription of antibiotics in general, not because of cattle being given antibiotics. That's an American problem anyway; use of antibiotics in cattle feed is banned in Europe, most beef cattle are grass-fed, not grain-fed (and the meat is better for it, in my opinion).

Humans are omnivores, not herbivores. We can't digest cellulose. We learnt to cook in part to break down indigestible cellulose and other indigestible compounds in foods; cooking is one of the things that led to the human species as we know it (by enabling relatively evolutionarily rapid brain growth through being able to eat a more varied diet).

You also seem to be pretty ignorant of how people actually eat in your diatribes about "meat-based diets"; as an omnivore I get my magnesium, potassium and folate from vegetables (greens, potatoes, etc), milk and corn flakes, among other things.

And, "big pharma"? What does "big pharma" have to do exactly with food and diet? Last I checked GlaxoSmithKline, AstraZeneca, et al were entirely different entities to Archer Daniels Midland, Monsanto, and so on. I think you have your insane conspiracy theories badly confused.

[uppityperson]

100. Thank you for writing this so I don't have to. If I could rec 1 post here, you would get it. I'd lik

I'd like to see the OP respond to what you wrote.

[idwiyo]

206. k&r your post definitely deserves it

[Silent3]

282. +1 n/t

[Gore1FL]

294. +1 n/t

[taught_me_patience]

46. Whenever I see "detoxification", but bullshit meter goes off hard

Why do vegans and vegetarians spend so much effort to get their crap to taste like meat or cheese?

[Codeine]

69. That's what we grew up eating.

Meat and cheese taste fucking awesome. Fake meat and cheese that taste good is even better -- numminess without dead cows and pigs and stuff.

[dionysus]

184. i enjoy and steak and veggie burgers\chikn patties

as long as you don't try to fool yourself into thinking you're eating meat, they taste greate.

veggie corndogs are the bomb.

but those products seems to also have a lot of sodium, fat, ect in em, not sure they're the healthiest thing to eat. especially since I pt cheese on them

[KurtNYC]

47. We have been eating GMO for 20 years -- where is the damage?

Have you ever farmed? I'm going to guess "no" because you didn't mention the effects of pesticides and herbicides ON FARM WORKERS, only on you.

There is a lot about farming and nutrition that gets ignored when we treat our diets as religion.

[Silent3]

283. Thank you for this.

I get so tired of all this rhetoric about how we're being "poisoned", as if our general food supply (while certainly far from perfect) in nothing but a toxic brew of evil chemicals and unnatural horrors conspiratorially forced on us to kill us and sell us tons of also-evil pharmaceuticals before we die... totally ignoring the generally upward trend in life expectancy and better health in old age.

Could we be even better off with better food? Sure. But there must be a lot that we're doing right too. It's hardly the case that people used to be vigorous, fit, super-healthy centenarians back when the only food available to anyone was totally natural and totally non-GMO.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. If you cook your food, Monsanto wins.

[Brickbat]

52. Fire is a tool of the oppressor.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

160. This thread is hilarious

[Brickbat]

53. If I wanted to eat only raw heirloom organic vegan, I'd have to truck so much stuff to where I

live that plenty of corporations would want to kiss me on the mouth.

[Scout]

58. no way i could/would eat like that. :shrug:

i just do not like vegetables that much. or fruit. love my grains and cereals and dairy and yes, meat.

BTW, just because you aren't participating in the slaughter and aren't eating the meat, doesn't mean there is any less cruelty going on.... you may feel better about yourself, but until there is a MASSIVE change in culture world-wide, animals will continue to suffer on the same scale whether you eat the meat or not.

[athena]

238. So you think the same number of animals are slaughtered regardless of demand?

If a store orders 100 chickens and sells only 99, you really think they will continue to order 100?

You can use such "arguments" to try to feel better about eating animals, but you're only fooling yourself. When you eat fewer animal products, you reduce the demand for animal products.

Finally, vegetables taste better when they're not sitting next to a piece of an animal. My husband used to hate vegetables. About a week or two after we switched to a plant-based diet, he remarked that vegetables were suddenly much more flavorful. Both he and I like tasty food, and we're eating better now than we ever did before the switch.

[Gore1FL]

297. I find that vegetables taste the same whether or not they are accompanied by meat.

I am happy to eat them in either situation. I am not suggesting that my situation is the same for you or your husband. I am suggesting that anecdotal evidence and personal experience defines the norm.

I can't say I am familiar with supermarket ordering processes to comment on how they meet demands. When I buy meat, I don't buy it a pig or cow at a time, but that is the necessary unit of production. There is clearly some margin of error involved. The impact of not buying a steak more likely means that steak will be thrown away after the sell-by date. If the demand goes down in a significant way, they will simply raise less animals. Ranches won't turn into bovine retirement homes.


Feel free to be a vegan. I am glad it works for you. Be anything you want. I thank you for extending me the same courtesy.

[Iggo]

64. I like food.

[Throd]

74. Sorry, there is no vegan substitute to the Carl's Jr. Western Bacon Cheeseburger for a hangover.

[closeupready]

76. Do you REALLY respond, "where the FUCK do you think cows get their protein"

to those who ask you "where do you get your protein?"

I think, if so, I'm done here.

[uppityperson]

121. Bird watching.

[uppityperson]

129. Oh hell no. Trying to help you find a new positive hobby. Folk dancing.

[BainsBane]

133. You'd think there would be all kinds of things to do at the library

[uppityperson]

135. Seriously. Distinct lack of imagination too.

[davekriss]

84. "vegan till 6" here :)

[LeftyMom]

93. Raw foodism is stupid.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. Nope, won't bother with the science on this one

not one bit.

[SidDithers]

96. Organic foods cause Autism...

It's true. I saw it on the internet.




Sid

[zappaman]

149. Yeah, right...I suppose you're gonna tell us wind power causes cancer too? n/t

[dionysus]

176. you won't be laughing when a broken turbine blade flies 10 miles through 9 feet of hail and

cuts you in half!

[whatchamacallit]

183. Lol!

Then it's safe to assume most humans were autistic before the mid 20th century.

[Warren DeMontague]

187. It's clearly there in the data!

[Silent3]

284. +1 n/t

[Kali]

338. !!!!

Missed this party last year, but this post deserves a reply.

[SidDithers]

339. Hehehe...

Sid

[Pretzel_Warrior]

99. Why are vegans so boring?

That is one long-ass post about eating your vegetables. And no...blowing up corporate headquarters buildings is the ultimate "fuck you" to corporate America. Not advocating it--just pointing out the obvious.

[Dreamer Tatum]

180. I once saw a post here, long ago, claiming vegans' feces smells better than non-vegan.

Absolute truth.

[JoeyT]

220. It's probably our silica deficiencies.

Eat sand, poop flowers.

[handmade34]

229. Oh, you hang with the wrong vegans!

and must disagree, blowing up buildings is child's play compared to the herculean task of causing consumers to quit buying the product that the corporation is selling

[quinnox]

114. you don't cook anything, huh

now that is pretty bizarre, I must tell you.

[aikoaiko]

119. I like to eat raw beef and fish.

deelish.

[yawnmaster]

137. "Pork is laden with parasitic worms and/or their eggs."...

That's why BACON tastes do good!!!!

BLAT's for dinner tonight!

[Liberal_in_LA]

146. I'm vegetarian but I like cooked food!

[gollygee]

150. I agree that is the ultimate, however doing as much of that as works for you now

still does a lot of good. I don't want people to dismiss this because they aren't vegans without hearing the larger message. Even if we do what we can at this time in our lives and don't do it all, were still making a difference.

[tavernier]

152. I guess I'm an odd duck

I've always eaten everything, drank a variety of booze, mostly wine, smoked for forty years (still take puffs from an e cig once in a while), had children and a high maintenance husband forever, exercised little but walked a lot, used hair dyes for 50 years, worked (and still do) as a nurse in high stress jobs, had a pest control guy spray my homes in Florida for 30 years, BBQ my food (often with coal), and lived through 2 administrations of George bush.
I'm closing in on 70, healthy, and physically feel like I'm 30. No surgeries or major illnesses and very thankful because I realize that I've done more than share of no no's.

Yes, I could die in the next 5 years, but I've never had the goal to live to 100. I doubt I could afford that, anyway!

What do I consider as a my good fortune for being healthy this long, despite myself? I have good genes... Lots of old folks in my history. I am not religious (church style) but I have a personal and close relationship with my God. I laugh a lot. I love family and friends and surround myself with lots of both. I have a good sex life. I am interested in almost everything in life: art, theater, travel, literature.

So... I'd love to eat your veggies, but I'd accompany them with a pork chop and some red wine!

[kestrel91316]

153. There is nothing wrong with cooking one's food. Raw ain't necessary.

Cooking food frequently increases nutrient bioavailability. And it kills pathogens.

I'll continue to cook a lot of my veggies and grains, thank you.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

164. Are you kidding? Rice straight from the bag is awesome!

I like to make a raw wheat, oat, and rice "not so smoothie" with raw milk and raw sugar.

[lumberjack_jeff]

260. Like corn nuts, but with more dental damage. n/t

[cui bono]

158. While I may not agree with every point made in the OP,

it is true we need to get off the corporate teat.

Another area is stop using chemical cleaners in your house. Good for the planet and your own immediate health.

[handmade34]

230. +1

I have quit buying "brand names"... I make all my own soap, detergents, toothpaste, etc... still have to buy the makings but they are the staples and not the things that corporate businesses exploit people with

takes no more time than normal chores once a system is established

my last batch of laundry detergent and softener cost about $0.10 per load

[RobinA]

162. "Food is Politics"

Well, apparently it is to you, anyway.

Is it not possible to be a vegan without spouting all this nonsense? Just be a vegan if you want to be, you don't have to attempt to justify it by going on about "vitality killing parasites." Eat what you want, I'll eat what I want, eventually we'll both die.

[Taverner]

173. Sorry, I am going "mostly vegetarian" and even that is tough

[thereismore]

181. Eating cooked organic heirloom would not be? This raw food veganism is probably unhealthy.

Think about it, for millions of years of human evolution, there have never existed meatless (non)hunters gatherers. It is very likely if not certain that meat is actually good for us in ways vegan propaganda does not even contemplate.

BTW, where do you get your B12 and where do you get your L-carnosine and where do you get CSA (healthy trans fat in butter)?

And what is so healthy about eating raw red kidney beans? Nothing. They are toxic, possibly lethal. Raw plants contain a lot of natural pesticides, designed to keep animals away. But people? People just "know" that raw veganism is good. Right? You just know it. You are so convinced of it that you will put yourself through such misery and it will take you years before you realize that your health is on the decline. Even then, you may not stop eating those toxins. Because you just "know" it's good to be raw food vegan in the absence of any evidence.

[JVS]

262. Cooking is a conspiracy foisted on us by the utility companies.

[Glassunion]

185. I see where you are coming from... However

I cannot agree 100%...

I believe in a simple and tasty diet. I will not give up meat. My body is designed to eat it. I have teeth that are shaped specifically for eating a diverse diet that includes meat. I have bacteria and enzymes that are in my body that have the capabilities to break down anything from a turnip to a piece of chicken. So... I'm not going to argue with millions of years of evolution.

I will say that meat should be kept to a minimum, and our grocery bags should have the lion's share filled with produce and fruit. I agree completely on the organic and non-GMO.

[nomorenomore08]

271. +1

Probably the most reasonable post of the thread...

[Warren DeMontague]

186. How does the organic heirloom vegan I'm supposed to eat, feel about that?

Can I get to know him, first?

[Warren DeMontague]

188. "meant" to digest meat?

"meant" by whom?

[solarhydrocan]

189. 74-Year Old Raw Vegan Icon Mimi Kirk

If a picture is worth 1000 words a video is worth....more

there are 47 year old women that look older than Mimi

Most people don't even know if they ate the *required* vitamins and minerals every day!

[snooper2]

324. Wonder what she would look like if she hadn't eaten meat in her first 30 years of life-

Somebody take your newborn,

Make them a vegan,

Come back to us in 50 years

[Texasgal]

195. I'm glad you can AFFORD IT!

Most people on limited incomes cannot afford 100% organic.

If there is a choice of buying a tomato for a dollar or for three dollars what do you think most people will pick?

I am pretty financially stable meaning I am able to pay most of my bills and live pretty well. I will tell you though that I cannot afford organic fruits and vegetables. I cannot imagine a family trying to.

I hear what you are saying however. I am mostly 100% Vegetarian. Organic no. Not in the budget.

[bluestate10]

205. When I study them, I find organic food and produce people to be part of a small world They are

passionate about the food they eat and buy, but one glaring problem is that they have no capacity to understand why EVERYONE doesn't eat what they eat. The fact that most people can't afford to eat organic food mostly escapes the organic food people. Your point on the tomato is well taken, a person of limited income will buy what they can afford. I look forward to the day when enlightened organic farmers aim to make produce for everyone.

[Cha]

196. I've been doing that for years except the "raw" part.. because it makes

me feel better. But, I certainly understand it's not everyone's cuppa(don't say "tea"! lol)

Everything is political now.. The top 3.. Air, water, food.. being the substances we need to stay alive.

I'm really happy for you that you've helped your health with your diet and so are versed in the subject! Not shy about passing on your good fortune!

One note on the Pumpkin Seeds.. they're alkaline with Zinc, Calcium and Typtophan among other vital elements.. made me happy when I just read that.

JSYK.. Bill Clinton went on a vegan diet too because of heart health issues. thank goodness there's still plenty of food left to eat.

snip//

"En español l When Bill Clinton invited me to lunch in May, I knew better than to expect fried catfish or barbecued ribs. The former president is now a devoted vegan, meaning no meat, fish or dairy products, and he has pursued a healthier way of life for more than three years. While I figured our lunch menu might be bland, that would be a small price to pay for private time with a world leader who is anything but.

As it happens, the fit, trim and sharply attired Clinton, whom I've come to know well during more than two decades covering his career, is his usual gregarious, charismatic self. But a bland menu? Not even close.

Hummus with raw vegetable batons. — Kat Teutsch
Dine like Bill Clinton does. Check out great recipes for hummus, quinoa, beets, cauliflower, snow peas, beans and more.

As we enter a private room overlooking Manhattan's busy Rockefeller Center, I'm struck with a dazzling kaleidoscope of a dozen delicious dishes: including roasted cauliflower and cherry tomatoes, spiced and herbed quinoa with green onions, shredded red beets in vinaigrette, garlicky hummus with raw vegetable batons, Asian-inspired snow pea salad, an assortment of fresh roasted nuts, plates of sliced melon and strawberries, and rich, toothsome gigante beans tossed with onions in extra-virgin olive oil.

More..
http://www.aarp.org/health/healthy-living/info-08-2013/bill-clinton-vegan.html



to your health, livingwagenow.. (that's Kombucha)

[FunkyLeprechaun]

286. Clinton admitted he's not vegan/vegetarian

He likes to eat meat occasionally. Still stays healthy though.

[Cha]

289. Yeah, saw a later ariticle about him

eating "salmon" occasionally. The thing is though.. he was in a health crisis and going on Vegan helped him initially.

As I mentioned in my other post.. to each his own. I don't care what anyone else eats. In fact Bon Appetite.

[JVS]

198. As if there isn't an organic food industry. Whole foods is run by a capitalist sociopath

[cui bono]

244. Whole Foods is grossly misnamed.

It barely has any organic produce or green products. And they are overpriced. So they are not part of this organic "industry" of which you speak.

Once at the organic step, most people also start to buy locally. This is important to try to eliminate the use of fuel to transport the food. So farmer's markets are the best place to buy your organic foods. Then supplement by getting the rest at a local market. Eating healthy is about a lot more than just what you actually put into your body, it encompasses all the ramifications of the food you eat to include how your choices affect the environment, even climate change.

[cui bono]

249. What the hell? What would someone say to that to get auto-removed?

And I missed it! Damn. I hate when that happens.

[JVS]

259. I missed it too.

[JVS]

258. Nothing you just mentioned is incompatible with the development of an industry.

There is a market for organic food and people are willing to pay more for it, that opportunity will be exploited.

[cui bono]

264. You're right. But at least if we keep it local we can try to not have it so corporate

controlled. Although since they've seen people desiring organic produce the big corporations are already jumping on the bandwagon. The only fresh organic pineapples I've found are from Dole, and to be honest, I don't trust them. Even though they are labeled "certified organic" I'm not all that comfortable that they follow the rules.

[Texasgal]

199. I must also add

that your screen name is kinda ineteresting. I mean how do people that do not make a "living wage" afford the organic lifestyle?

[alphafemale]

201. Glad that is working for you. Please stop trying to assert you are a better person.

Or that diet would work for everyone.

I even tried to be JUST a vegetarian for a time.

I felt horrible and weak and had nightly dreams of hunting with a pack of wolves and eating elk alive.

But again.

Glad that is working for you.

But your choice of diet does not make you a morally superior person.

[bluestate10]

209. Many people aren't constituted to eat like the OP. I am a person that can't eat that way.

I eat a diet that includes all types of food, including every type of meat. That diet works for me if health metrics are to be believed.

[alphafemale]

210. I felt like I was losing my mind going without meat

People are all geared differently.

(I'm also not going gluten free)

Gluten is what makes bread wonderful you idiots.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

299. While some people seem to be going gluten-free for no good reason, there are many

people who are sensitive to it, with varying degrees of seriousness. It can cause auto-immune disorders, for one thing.

[handmade34]

306. Celiac disease affects at least 3 million Americans

and gluten can make them very sick... gluten free is crucial for many people

Celiac disease is an inherited autoimmune disorder that affects the digestive process of the small intestine. When a person who has celiac disease consumes gluten, a protein found in wheat, rye and barley, the individual’s immune system responds by attacking the small intestine and inhibiting the absorption of important nutrients into the body. Undiagnosed and untreated, celiac disease can lead to the development of other autoimmune disorders, as well as osteoporosis, infertility, neurological conditions and in rare cases, cancer.

http://www.uchospitals.edu/pdf/uch_007937.pdf

[alphafemale]

308. Fine. It is like Diabetes or Lactose Intolerance or a food allergy.

But Gluten Free is about the stupidest food fad ever.

Right up there with Rice Cakes.

[Blue_In_AK]

280. When I go 100% vegetarian

I gain a lot of weight. I do eat a lot of fruit and veggies and hardly any processed food, but meat balances me.

[uppityperson]

208. Humans are an unnatural species, the result of crossbreeding and hybridization, omnivores more

closely related to bears in what they can live well on. They do not have cows stomach so can not digest what cows eat. Like bears, they are able to consume healthily mostly plants with some fish, fowl, land animals as they can get it. They get their magnesium, folate, potassium from the vegetables and fruit in their omnivoric diet

Nearly ALL food types introduce health and vitality killing parasites into our bodies. Plants have parasites, as does meat. They also have bacteria in and on them. Cooking your food well to decrease the amounts of these beings is a good thing.

Meat is not a human gut bacteria destroyer and I challenge anyone claiming this to provide us a link to a reputable source. Like bears and raccoons, humans survive healthily on an omnivore diet. "Organic vegan foods are powerful body cleansers and detoxifiers" also needs proof from a reputable source as does "trust me". As does "Inflammation is one of humankinds worst ailments" All powerful sounding statements with no scientific backing in any reality. I could be wrong and you could educate me. If you have links to reputable sources proving any of that, I'll be happy to read them. And learn.

Unlike some, I do not claim to know everything or have the right answer for everyone.

[idwiyo]

211. your post deserves k&r

[Taverner]

243. The problem with meat, health wise, is what we feed the meat

Add to it that we tend to eat large animals (except chicken) which tend to concentrate the most poisons

The fat that is in animals is unhealthy as well - even in chicken

Fish and insects have healthy fats int them - however fish also concentrate toxins in them, especially the fish we like to eat - aka Tuna (which it turns out is radioactive, and even our own government is acknowledging the danger

Yes, plant-based diets are not immune to e-coli and salmonella

It is a good idea to wash and cook your food

There is no evidence to support that raw food nonsense

[handmade34]

307. "what we feed the meat"

Scientists around the world have provided strong evidence that antibiotic use in food-producing animals can have a negative impact on public health through the following sequence of events:

Use of antibiotics in food-producing animals allows antibiotic-resistant bacteria to thrive while susceptible bacteria are suppressed or die;
Resistant bacteria can be transmitted from food-producing animals to humans through the food supply;
Resistant bacteria can cause infections in humans; and
Infections caused by resistant bacteria can result in adverse human health consequences.
Because of the link between antibiotic use in food-producing animals and the occurrence of antibiotic-resistant infections in humans, CDC encourages and supports efforts to minimize inappropriate use of antibiotics in humans and animals.

http://www.cdc.gov/narms/animals.html


and chickens...

[flvegan]

213. Ever notice how defensive they get?

Ego is a funny thing.

[Ellipsis]

214. LOL your headline just broke me up...

We be lucky out here in the great outwash plain www.farmshed.org

[TroubleMan]

216. Grass-fed, grass-finished beef is one of the healthiest foods you can eat.

Again, that's only grass-fed and grass-finished, and unfortunately it's ridiculously expensive.

You're exactly right about the corporate farm cows and pretty much any processed or factory farmed meat in general. It's all crap and unhealthy.

Regardless of what your diet is, you should always get plenty of green vegetables. You can get good protein from vegetables and nuts.

However saying that all meat is bad or unhealthy is factually incorrect. Unfortunately 99% of the meat now is bad for you. It didn't used to be like that.

[handmade34]

231. agree

a more pragmatic approach is good... I am vegetarian but realize some people will always eat meat and therefore encourage cutting back a bit and eating local, organic...

the environment is suffering greatly because people refuse to understand how devastating factory farming is (all- meat and fruits and vegetables)

[athena]

233. Not true. Please don't spread mis-information.

http://extension.psu.edu/animals/beef/production/telling-the-grass-fed-beef-story

The reality is there is no evidence whatsoever that grass-fed beef has any advantage for safety, human health, or impact on the environment than grain-fed beef.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/11/switching-to-grass-fed-beef/

While the analysis is favorable to grass-fed beef, it’s not clear whether the nutritional differences in the two types of meat have any meaningful impact on human health. For instance, the levels of healthful omega-3s are still far lower than those found in fatty fish like salmon. And as the study authors note, consumers of grain-fed beef can increase their levels of healthful CLAs by eating slightly fattier cuts.

Moreover, grass-fed beef is worse for the environment:
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/the_green_lantern/2010/12/pass_on_grass.html

[TroubleMan]

245. Actually it is - it's not misinformation

I'm sorry I don't have time to link all the evidence right now (single father of two, works 60 hours per week, over 20 hours per week with my kid's extra-curriculars).

This is sort of a drive-by post, and I apologize for that.

The basics are that grass-fed has about 10 times more beta-carotene, three times more Vitamin E and three-times more omega-3 fatty acids. There are other benefits as well.

Additionally that link about grass-fed being worse for the environment is 100% wrong - that article puts up so many straw-man arguments and fallacies. Here's a good counter argument:
http://www.eatwild.com/environment.html
Grass-fed is less efficient from an energy stand-point, but it's much more environmentally friendly.

It's not only "you are what you eat," but also "you are what you eat has eaten." Factory cattle stand in a pile of their own shit all day, they eat foods that are natural for them to eat, they are pumped full of hormones, and force-fed. That's not healthy and not natural.

[athena]

247. Stating something does not make it true.

You provide no evidence for your claims. If you have enough time to make thousands of posts here, you certainly have enough time to find references for your claims, if such references exist. It took me about five minutes to find the references I posted. Your single reference is from a site that exists to promote grass-fed beef. Farmers who produce grass-fed beef pay that site fees to be listed there. The links I posted, in contrast, are from a variety of sources; the first one is from Penn State extension, a program of the USDA's Cooperative Extension Service.

That link, which you don't seem to have even looked at, addresses your claims about the nutrients in grass-fed beef:

Similarly, the Omega-6 to Omega 3 ratio is an important feature of fat intake in humans. The recommended daily intakes of Omega:3 from the World Health Organization of 1.1 to 1.6 grams/day show it would require a person to eat 4 1/2 pounds of cooked grass-fed beef daily to meet the minimum daily requirement. Therefore, any speculation that eating grass-fed beef will enhance human health due to Omega:3 fatty acid consumption is clearly incomplete at best, and usually false.

Note that you can get your minimum daily requirement of Omega-3 fatty acids from about a teaspoonful of flax seed.

The site also reiterates that grass-fed beef is not better for the environment:

On the environmental front, studies by Yan et al (2009) in Ireland used growth chambers to evaluate the greenhouse gas emissions from cattle with varying levels of forage and grain in the diet. Coupling these results with a 30% increase of harvest age of grass-fed cattle compared to grain-fed, it becomes clear there is a 500% increase in greenhouse gas emissions for each pound of beef produced from grass-fed compared to grain-fed cattle. Uncontrolled nitrogen and phosphate release to the environment, 35% more water use, and 30% more land use for grass-fed cattle compared to grain-fed increases the environmental impact of strictly grass feeding. A model reported by Canadian workers (Janzen et al, 2008) accounts for carbon loss from fossil fuels for corn production and other factors of production for both grass- and grain-fed cattle and shows the added efficiency of animal production and resource use from intensive grain feeding will reduce the collective environmental impact of grain-fed compared to grass-fed beef.

The emphases are mine.

ETA: I am not suggesting that grain-fed beef is good. Promoting grass-fed beef as a better alternative to grain-fed beef, though, is misleading and irresponsible. The only way to eat that is healthy, environmentally friendly, and compassionate, is a plant-based diet.

[nomorenomore08]

272. I'm just not sure that a strict vegan diet is nutritionally optimal for all humans.

And even if true, it would be difficult to prove, considering how much variation there is between individuals.

[lumberjack_jeff]

261. We just bought 1/4 grass fed beef... all told it was about $4.50/lb. n/t

[LWolf]

219. I didn't know

that vegans don't eat conventionally grown crops. Is this universal, or just another choice for some vegans?

I'm not going to become a vegan.

I do eat way more vegetables than meat. Meat usually comes in the form of wild-caught salmon. I also eat home-grown organic eggs, and I have access to grass-fed, pasture raised local meats. I don't eat them often, but if I want meat, that's where it comes from.

I eat fish and/or meat a couple of times a month. The rest of the time, most of my protein comes from quorn. I don't like soy, and since I have a thyroid disorder, I avoid it anyway. I also eat raw almonds and other nuts, but don't depend on them as a protein source because they're high in fat. I don't know if quorn is okay for vegans, but it works for me.

I read recently that about 91% of all the soy grown in the U.S. is genetically modified. That's another reason to avoid it, Vegan or not.

One of food's greatest temptations for me is dairy. I love cheese, and find cheese substitutes repulsive. I don't drink milk, but I love ice cream and yogurt, too. I use almond milk and coconut milk for some things, and someday I'm going to figure out how to make ice cream with them. I've tried coconut yogurt, and was not impressed. I do try to limit the amount of cheese I eat, but I still eat it on occasion.

I also strictly limit the grains, and the types of grains, that I eat.

That's not vegan, but it's healthier than many, and I seem to be doing pretty well with it.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

223. "If I were a sociopathic capitalist..."

You go to where the money is. If enough money went to heirloom raw organic foods you'd pull stakes from GMOs and go there.

If you were a fascist you'd have the government write laws to protect your fiefdom regardless of where it was found.

[workinclasszero]

228. Awesome OP! Me and my wife just went vegan

We were inspired by Bill Clinton and the movie Forks Over Knifes.

[athena]

234. Congratulations!

My husband and I switched to a plant-based diet eight months ago after seeing Vegucated. We were surprised by how easy it is. Since then, I've been ramping up my running (I'm currently at 20 miles/week), and I feel healthier than ever. The two things to pay attention to are vitamin B12 and omega-3 fatty acids. We get the former from enriched soymilk and the latter by adding two teaspoonfuls of flax seed to our oatmeal in the morning.

If you need further inspiration, I can recommend "Eating Animals," a beautifully written book by Jonathan Safran Foer.

[workinclasszero]

267. I saw Vegucated too

Its going on a month now and I feel much better. A lot of aches and pains I've had for years suddenly went away which is great.

[MuseRider]

232. Well said and thank you.

You are 100% correct about this.

Not a strict vegan myself, I do try to eat vegan at least 3 days a week, always a vegetarian. I stay as much as possible a locavore, grow much of my own and have learned to can like a crazy woman and store food in various ways. I wish all people could have that kind of relationship with their food. It is eye opening as well as very healthy.

I, at almost 60, feel better now than I did at 50 and possibly even 40.

[Vashta Nerada]

235. I prefer to enjoy food when I eat.

The raw vegan diet just sounds nasty. I like my meat. I like my potatoes. I like my grains.

Show me the scientific research behind your claims and I may take you seriously.

[athena]

246. Enjoying our food is the reason we switched to a plant-based diet.

I suspect you are simply unaware of what goes on in chicken and pig farms, as most people are. Once you know a little about it, it's impossible to enjoy your meat, eggs, or milk. I urge you to look around online. Or read Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer.

I think the OP should have separated raw veganism from a plant-based diet. There are three major reasons to switch to a plant-based diet: it's healthier; it's better for the planet; and it reduces animal suffering.

Here are some articles and studies on the health benefits of vegetarian and vegan diets:
http://www.nih.gov/researchmatters/june2013/06102013vegetarian.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23169929
http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/cancer.aspx
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/08/health/study-points-to-new-culprit-in-heart-disease.html

[Vashta Nerada]

250. My point: I don't want a plant - based diet.

I like my meat.

[athena]

270. Your point: you don't want any input.

So much for being interested in the scientific research. You should have made that clear in your previous post; I could have saved myself the time it took to respond to it.

[solarhydrocan]

274. Those of us that know this and have switched because of health reasons

now have to subsidize those who just don't or won't care.

If smokers have to pay a boatload more so should everyone else that increase insurance payouts. I've taken extreme care to eat healthy and get all required vitamins and minerals- and others my age sometimes look 20 years older.

Some replies on this thread are depressing. I don't care what other people eat, but now we're all linked by mandated payments to a broken system. If some think their health isn't related to what they shove into their mouths they're not thinking.

One day soon (if not now-see Lightlife Grillers!- none of my friends can tell the difference in a blind taste test) "meat" will be able to be duplicated exactly in taste, protein and texture. But still many will want to kill animals to eat them.

[AtheistCrusader]

288. Some of us raise and hunt our own meat/eggs, etc.

Suffering need not be part of the equation. Certainly not on the scope and scale of a factory farm.

Nothing wrong with the eggs our chickens produce. And since we don't have a rooster, they'd go to waste anyway, if we didn't eat them. They seem quite happy to produce them.

[BlueToTheBone]

253. Add home grown and you have a trifecta. n/t

[darkangel218]

254. OMG, i will never give up meat! :p

Forever a cow slayer!!

[mike_c]

257. basic biological literacy fail....

eom

[Gore1FL]

290. +1 n/t

[whistler162]

266. Sorry I need my sanity....

which from every "vegan" post I see is not a option when going "vegan".

[mainer]

273. If you KNOW your chickens are happy and free range

what's wrong with eating their eggs? I don't see that there's any moral irresponsibility with eating eggs. Or eating yogurt made from grass-fed free-range cows.

And yes, i know these animals are happy and healthy because I get to hang out with them all the time on my son's farm.

FYI, his free-range hens roost up in the trees and only go into the hen house to lay eggs. They have complete freedom, and they only fear the foxes and the eagles.

Why can't I eat their eggs?!!!

[solarhydrocan]

275. eat all the eggs and whatever else you want

just don't expect me to pay for your cholesterol problems.

Isn't that fair?

[darkangel218]

279. Whoa!!!

Welcome to DU.

[Gore1FL]

298. I don't want to pay for yours either.

http://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/news/20100802/low-carb-diets-improve-cholesterol-long-term

[Blue_In_AK]

303. That's the thing about diets...

The science is always changing, so who knows which is the more healthy diet? I think if we try to avoid processed food, buy organic, non-GMO fruits and veggies whenever we can, and avoid artificial ingredients, we can probably eat pretty much whatever we want (in moderation) and do just fine. I seldom eat red meat, but I had some moose stew tonight and it was delicious, and I'm not going to feel bad about it. I'll have some salmon, some chicken, green smoothies, brown rice, some homemade sourdough bread. It's all good.

[Gore1FL]

310. That's generally my approach. n/t

[solarhydrocan]

304. I don't have any cholesterol issues because I don't eat anything containing cholesterol

And I don't think there's anything impolite about pointing out the fact that I am not enthusiastic about paying the same rate of insurance as someone that eats things that cause long term problems.

If enough of us work hard, hopefully this issue will go to court.

We're all going to find out soon what it's like to be a scorned smoker. "We need to keep insurance low" is the new catchall phrase for *everything*

[Gore1FL]

311. Your body creates it's own cholesteral

That's what clogs up your veins.

People with high carb diets create more of it. That link I provided is actually clickable and everything.

[mainer]

313. Absolutely true.

High-carb diets lead to obesity and cause issues of their own.

A vegan can't help but ingest carbs, because if you're not eating fat or protein, where else are you going to get nutrients but from carbs?

[mainer]

312. Seeing as my cholesterol is freakishly low

and my HDL is freakishly high despite my egg-loving diet, I'm more likely to be paying for YOUR cholesterol problems.

It's the sugar and carbs that are more likely to cause health problems.

[snooper2]

325. I guess that depends on if you believe life begins at conception

[AtheistCrusader]

285. I'm not deficient in any of those nutrients.

I'm an omnivore and eat a wide variety of stuff, and I change it up regularly. I don't think anyone (but me) 'designed' my 'meat based' diet.


A little low in Vitamin D, but I live in Seattle, so par for the course.

[Warren DeMontague]

301. Pace Yourselves, People!

Thanksgiving's still a month away. Aren't there some Halloween-related harangues we do, first?

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

302. I like the FU to corporate America, but there is not one diet that is right for every person.

I've definitely been at my healthiest when eating low carb and lots of meat.

Fresh, ripe, heirloom tomatoes, though, were one of the things I loved best this past summer.

[mainer]

314. Anthropologists believe cooking = civilization

By cooking raw ingredients, we speed up our ability to digest foods and absorb nutrients, leaving us free to do other activities besides eating all day.

Chimps eat a largely vegan diet, but they're CONSTANTLY munching and eating foods because they can't absorb as many nutrients from raw foods.

That's why vegans lose weight -- because they have to eat so much just to ingest necessary nutrients. But it means you spend a lot of your day eating, and less of your day doing other useful things. Like inventing things.

[TransitJohn]

315. And then you can also

Power your home on your sense of smug self satisfaction.

[undeterred]

316. Vegetarian rec.

Screw Corporate America.

[mainer]

321. Nothing as delicious as raw cassava root. Cooking just spoils its taste!

Cooking cassava takes away all those incredible nutrients.

Like cyanide.

[idwiyo]

327. ...

[MrsMatt]

326. Although there is truth to much of what you assert

there is a flip side to some of your recommendations.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa

[StrayKat]

328. That article is silly.

It's true that some vegans and vegetarians delight in exotic fare the same way omnivore or carnist foodies delight in all manner imported cheeses, chocolates, coffees, etc. However, there is no *need* to do this. People can easily get all the nutrients they need without imports like quinoa and tofu. A diet of US grown potatoes, veg and fruit is just fine if that's what someone prefers.

[MrsMatt]

329. The OP's list of protein sources included quinoa.

according to the OP:

The best sources of protein
Spirullina (algae)
Chlorella (algae)
Hemp Seeds
Mung Beans(really, most beans)
Quinoa
Goji berries
Almonds
Cashews
Asparagus
Pumpkin seeds(most seeds, nuts are great protein sources)
Tempeh and other soy products

About 50% of the protein sources cited by the OP appear to be "exotic". I wouldn't have brought it up if the OP had stuck to a diet of US grown sustainable produce.

[StrayKat]

330. The original post is kind of silly and sensational, too.

But, it seems to be effective at getting people to discuss the topic.

[shedevil69taz]

331. Meh good for you

More bacon for me!

[tabbycat31]

332. To each his own

I personally think that my diet is none of your business, and if you were like this IRL when I'm eating a steak, I would give a big FU. (I view vegans trying to convert people the same way I view fundamentalist Christians trying to convert people).

Eating raw would be incredibly difficult for me (i have very sensitive teeth and it hurts to chew crunchy foods) so I eat my veggies cooked for reasons called avoiding a toothache. Not cooking takes so much flavor out of food. If I was limited to only raw veggies (as I was growing up) then I would not eat them at all.

I rarely eat meat (about once a week or so) but I would say 90% of my daily protein comes from dairy. It's been that way since I was a little kid. And don't convince me that soy milk is dairy because it is not period. Never really been a fan of nuts because of my tooth sensitivity and the fact that I often choke on them before i can chew them thoroughly. Fake meats, fake dairy, etc have the same appeal to me as dog shit does. I'd rather eat the real thing than something engineered in a science lab. (And I'd rather eat dog shit than algae).


FTR I am a healthy weight and not on any prescriptions. Just a multivitamin.

If it works for you, great, but please mind your own business when it comes to someone else's diet.

[StrayKat]

333. Are you a 30BAD follower?

[Fawke Em]

337. I eat meat, but I usually eat a Paleo-diet.

We went on vacation this past week and had to eat a lot of "road food" - sandwiches, processed foods, fake meat - that sort of thing.

In four days, I felt sluggish, tired and had stomach issues. If I had continued on, I would have probably missed more work - being sick and hospitalized!