‘Unacceptable and shocking’: France demands explanation for NSA spying

[BelgianMadCow]

from RT, but here's the Le Monde front page piece.

“The revelations on Le Monde are shocking and demand adequate explanations from the American authorities in the coming hours,” said Valls on television channel Europe 1.

He went on to say that it is totally unacceptable for an allied country to spy on France.
Le Monde revealed in a report based on the security leaks of former CIA worker Edward Snowden that the NSA recorded 70.3 million phone calls between December 10, 2012, and January 8, 2013.

The NSA reportedly carries out its espionage in France using a program called ‘US-985D’ which is able to listen in on specific telephone calls and pick up on text messages according to key words used.

Moreover, Le Monde also wrote that it had reason to believe that the spying was not just limited to citizens suspected of being involved in terrorism. According to the data released by Snowden the NSA also eavesdropped on politicians and prominent business figures.

What I wonder is, when are business people across the globe gonna raise their voice in the NSA debate?

[cantbeserious]

1. Good Question

eom

[JDPriestly]

2. What does this mean for trade secret protection and patent violations?

[ReRe]

6. Not to mention...

...soverignty.

[Laelth]

3. k&r for exposure. n/t

-Laelth

[skepticscott]

4. The outrage is obligatory

But also amusingly hypocritical. France gathers intelligence on their allies just as we do...do they honestly think everyone doesn't know that? They may not be quite as good at it as we are, but they do it to the extent they can get away with.

[JDPriestly]

7. Le Monde began working on the Snowden documents in August apparently

and was, following instructions from Greenwald and Snowden, careful not to publish any details that might harm US security interests.

Here is a very brief excerpt from what Le Monde said in its editorial on the Snowden revelations regarding France.

The freedom to communicate and to benefit from secrecy in one's correspondence is a cornerstone of functioning democracies. The systematic intrusion in private lives is the mark of totalitarian systems, as the film, "The Lives of Others" which described the Stasi's operations in East Germany reminds us. . . . .

La liberté de communiquer et de bénéficier du secret de la correspondance est une pierre angulaire du fonctionnement des démocraties. L'intrusion systématique dans la vie privée est le propre des systèmes totalitaires, comme a pu le rappeler le film La vie des autres décrivant l'appareil de la Stasi en Allemagne de l'Est. . . . .

http://www.lemonde.fr/technologies/article/2013/10/21/editorial-du-monde-combattre-big-brother_3499858_651865.html

[Ace Acme]

28. France hoovers up 70 million of our phone calls every month?

You can prove that?

[skepticscott]

31. Since I didn't say that

Why the fuck would I need to prove it? Or did you miss the part where I said they're probably not as good at it as we are?

[Ace Acme]

32. You said "France gathers intelligence on their allies just as we do."

Now you're saying France doesn't gather intelligence "just as we do".

Thanks for making yourself clear. It's tough, isn't it, trying to make tyranny seem necessary and pragmatic.

[skepticscott]

37. Since you seem to have trouble

The US gathers intelligence on their allies

France gathers intelligence on their allies.

Neither tells the people they're spying on that they're being spied on.

Now tell me again what grounds France has for being outraged. Because we're getting more and better data than they are?

And please, try some reading comprehension before you accuse me of supporting this. I know blind outrage is very satisfying, but it doesn't make for rational discussion.

[Ace Acme]

43. There's gathering intelligence and gathering intelligence

Like, I listen to my neighbors when they're having a fight and I have no choice but to listen to them.

Somebody else might listen to his neighbors by monitoring their cordless phone transmissions.

Pretending that since both are "listening to the neighbors" then they're equivalent is dishonest.

Unless France is hoovering up 300 million of our phone calls a month, pretending there's an equivalence
is dishonest.

[skepticscott]

48. Ah, so then there is some level of spying

and intercepting phone calls that France could be doing against us that would be perfectly ok, and that WE would have no right to be outraged about. Give us that number, please.

[cali]

36. No, not even fucking close to "just as we do". duh.

[skepticscott]

38. See post 37

And then read my first post if my original point went over your head.

[cali]

40. it's your head that's under water, my friend

No other country has anything even close to the massive surveillance apparatus of the U.S., so claiming that France does "just as we do" in that regard, is disingenuous- at best.

try to use critical thinking skills. Surely you have some, right?

[skepticscott]

47. Try again

Did I say anywhere that France was doing things at the same level we were? Uh...no...in fact if you actually read (which doesn't even require critical thinking skills), you'll see that I'm well aware that they're not gathering information as effectively as we are. Which doesn't change the fact that their outrage is amusing and rather hypocritical. Unless you're claiming that there is some volume of information gathering by us against them that would be small enough that their outrage wouldn't be justified. Surely you're not claiming that just because we're managing to gather more information on them than they can get on us, that they have a right to a fit of pique.

[dotymed]

5. Every world citizen

should protest loudly.

Get "Big Brother" out of our lives.

[randome]

8. And published just as Kerry arrives in France. Coincidence? Not again.

How often does this need to occur before the rest of us realize that Greenwald's only objective is to embarrass us and push his ignorant Libertarian agenda?

Are we supposed to hang our heads in shame and pretend that France doesn't spy, too?

I don't think so.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[JackRiddler]

11. Damn that Greenwald, how dare he...

have the most basic idea of how to time his story releases for maximum impact? How dare he upset the Hon. Secretary's all-important unprecedented trip to Paris? How dare he use a French paper to do it? French, I tell you! It's not as though anyone has a legitimate interest in this story, otherwise!

An honorable man would have published it by hand-printing the story under the Rock of Gibraltar, on Christmas Day during a snowstorm while the power was out. And only after vetting it with the NSA and CIA, and turning himself and his sources in to the FBI for a thorough investigation. Oh woe, why didn't a real journalist get this story, to do it right?

[randome]

17. He has an agenda. That becomes more and more obvious.

A true journalist doesn't care about who is embarrassed. He/She puts the facts out for the readers to make their own decisions.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[mrdmk]

18. How about this, it is one thing to spy on someone!

It is another to be clumsy enough to get caught at it!

Yes, counties do spy on each other, that is a given. The problem here is the problem a lot of people (purposefully) overlook and was the NSA was caught spying on their very own citizens for no justifiable reason. Now, what kind of country spies on their own citizens?

[randome]

19. Keeping copies of phone metadata does not equal 'spying' to me.

The NSA is prohibited by law from spying on Americans.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[mrdmk]

27. A government keeping separate records for whatever use in the present and or future

is not spying? You have a very lenient view on this issue!

Too bad...

[treestar]

42. They didn't get caught

One of their minions voluntarily gave the information out to foreign countries.

[ucrdem]

12. Good call.

Le Monde is playing it up it like a Hollywood scandal.

[jeff47]

9. Did they ever give an explanation for their spying?

The French were spying on US dot-coms, and handing the technology over to French companies. It's been 20 years since they were caught. Still don't think they've provided an explanation.

[BelgianMadCow]

10. Two wrongs don't make a right

Did you think it was important to know about the french spying back then? Then these ongoing revelations are relevant and important.

I'm not saying it's not good to add what France did to this thread - there are very few innocent governments, and we shouldn't make these issues black and white, us v them etc. What I find very troubling is the size, the depth, the scope, the funding and the lack of oversight of the NSA spying.

Do you happen to have a link or reference for that french spying? I was too young at the time, didn't know.

Ah, I found this blurb:

Between 1987 and 1989, IBM and Texas Instruments were thought to have been targeted by French spies with the intention of helping France's Groupe Bull.[37] In 1993, US aerospace companies were also thought to have been targeted by French interests.[38] During the early 1990s, France was described as one of the most aggressive pursuers of espionage to garner foreign industrial and technological secrets.[37] France accused the U.S. of attempting to sabotage its high tech industrial base.[37] The government of France has been alleged to have conducted ongoing industrial espionage against American aerodynamics and satellite companies.

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/industrial-espionage#ixzz2iMvOeR5X

[jeff47]

13. But they do make hypocrisy.

Demanding an apology for the same thing that you are doing is rather hypocritical.

Especially when your espionage doesn't even have the "cover" of national security. They're literally stealing business from US companies.

This isn't to say our spying is all perfectly OK. But if our spying is worth an explanation and apology, what's their spying worth?

[BelgianMadCow]

15. Fair enough, but

twenty years ago isn't today, you wrote as if the french spying is still ongoing, haven't seen that (though who knows, of course) and like I said upthread, it's the scale, depth and secrecy (even to congressional oversight) that disturbs me a bit more in the NSA case. But indeed, if we look back a little there's hardly any western nation that can claim much of a moral high ground.

[jeff47]

16. There's no indication it stopped.

Such as apologizing and saying "we won't do that again".

(Also known as exactly what they are demanding the US do.)

like I said upthread, it's the scale, depth and secrecy (even to congressional oversight) that disturbs me a bit more in the NSA case

Then the French case should disturb you more. Very large-scale, lots of secrecy. But the NSA can at least try to hide behind a "national security" claim. The French can't - they were literally stealing business from the US to benefit French businesses.

[skepticscott]

20. Now you're getting it

It's not that the spying is morally pure, but that all major powers do it to both their "friends" and their enemies, and the outrage when one country gets caught at it is just phony diplomatic bullshit.

[RobertEarl]

21. Phony bullshit?

Complaining about spying is now 'phony bullshit'?

I guess if I complain about being spied on it is just your 'phony bullshit'?

It appears you are.

[skepticscott]

24. It's phony diplomatic bullshit

When you pretend to be shocked, shocked, to discover that an ally is spying on you, when you're doing the same fucking thing to them and to all of your other "allies" (but maybe just haven't been caught or outed recently).

Clear now?

[newthinking]

35. False equivilence is the media strategy

And you are clearly either believing it or promoting it.

There is obviously some serious arm twisting going on as there is a serious international tension occurring that is all over the press outside this country but very little in our media about.

As for what the French have done, there is no indication it is anywhere near similar in depth/breadth or that it is even similar to the apparatus we have.

This is getting tense because it appears to have broken every boundary including not only corporate, but tapping the phones of world leaders. There is nothing indicating that the French have broken all those same bounderies.

All countries are coming to grips with the need to be more sensitive to how we breach privacy vs how we protect it. But our programs are leagues further and deeper than theirs. You just can't say they are "equivilent".

[BelgianMadCow]

22. I agree that much if not all of the diplomatic outrage from the EU rings hollow, but

I assure you my outrage at these practices is not phony, and neither is it limited to the US doing this. Neither do I think the outrage from Brazil was fake.

Fact remains that all of us foreigners in the 'third echelon' now know the US thinks dragnet surveillance of us is OK. Very well possible that our own govts are doing that as well, and that they are cooperating / participating to some degree, but I've nowhere read about giant data centers being built, so I strongly doubt the scale is the same as in 'the five eyes'.

It's actually rather telling how we've seen stern worded letters and similar wrist-slapping from the EU, but nothing else. The part of the population that thinks privacy matters isn't fake, and for example in Germany there really is a public debate now, it was even a factor in the elections.

[BelgianMadCow]

14. Update: 70 million calls intercepted in a month, French foreign minister requests US ambassador

Here's the Hindu:

Le Monde newspaper, citing documents leaked by US whistleblower Edward Snowden, reported that the NSA collected 70.3 million telephone recordings over a 30-day period.

The paper said that the targets of the spying were “both people suspected of links with terrorist activities as well as individuals targeted simply for their links to the world of business, politics or the French administration.” “In light of the information from Le Monde I immediately summoned the US ambassador, who will be received this morning at the Quai d’Orsay (the address of the foreign ministry in Paris),” Mr. Fabius said on the sidelines of an EU foreign ministers’ meeting in Luxembourg.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Is it time for Freedom Fries again? Those French ingrates!

Don't they understand we're spying on them for their own good?

[BluegrassStateBlues]

25. Jay Carney gave a perfect explanation for it today. I hope they were tuning in. nt

[BelgianMadCow]

26. Update: "US admits: French surveillance revelations raise 'legitimate questions"

From the Guardian

The White House conceded on Monday that revelations about how its intelligence agencies have intercepted enormous amounts of French phone traffic raised "legitimate questions for our friends and allies".

In a statement released after a phone call between Barack Obama and his counterpart, François Hollande, the White House made one of its strongest admissions yet about the diplomatic impact of the disclosures by the former NSA contractor Edward Snowden.
...
"The president and President Hollande discussed recent disclosures in the press – some of which have distorted our activities, and some of which raise legitimate questions for our friends and allies about how these capabilities are employed," the White House said in a statement.

"The president made clear that the United States has begun to review the way that we gather intelligence, so that we properly balance the legitimate security concerns of our citizens and allies with the privacy concerns that all people share. The two presidents agreed that we should continue to discuss these issues in diplomatic channels."

"Begin to review". Hooray. Someone appoint Clapper to an investigative commission, quick!

[treestar]

29. We've been spying on the French for 250 years

And vice versa.

Nonstory.

[Ace Acme]

33. Spying on the French and hoovering up 70 million calls a month are two different propositions

I remember when we used to brag about being the land of the free and the home of the brave.

We don't do that any more because we know it's not true--in no small regard because of the
influence of apologists for tyranny.

[treestar]

41. Spying is spying

the technology improves. That's all. No difference.

[Ace Acme]

44. The difference is huge when improved technology allows wholesale surveillance of innocent people

instead of investigations of known wrong-doers.

The difference is also huge when big-net surveillance can be targeted not on wrong-doers, but on political enemies and journalists and activists. Did you learn nothing of the abuses done by J. Edgar Hoover even with the relatively feeble technologies of the day?

[treestar]

45. Who said proportionate amount of innocent people

Were not spied on with spyglasses or eavesdropping.

We spy on them, they spy on us. It's been going on since the dawn of nation-states.

[Ace Acme]

46. That's ridiculous

Nobody set up a telescope to look into random windows and see if they could detect anything illegal going on.

They might look into targeted windows.

[woo me with science]

30. K&R I see the propaganda apologism machine has been here. nt

[Rex]

34. OOppss?

Sorry (we got caught)?

[leftstreet]

39. DURec