Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’ within the Church

[kpete]

“The faith passes, so to speak, through a distiller and becomes ideology,” he said, according to Radio Vatican. “And ideology does not beckon people. In ideologies there is not Jesus: in his tenderness, his love, his meekness. And ideologies are rigid, always. Of every sign: rigid.

“And when a Christian becomes a disciple of the ideology, he has lost the faith: he is no longer a disciple of Jesus, he is a disciple of this attitude of thought… For this reason Jesus said to them: ‘You have taken away the key of knowledge.’ The knowledge of Jesus is transformed into an ideological and also moralistic knowledge, because these close the door with many requirements.”


“The faith becomes ideology and ideology frightens, ideology chases away the people, distances, distances the people and distances of the Church of the people,” Francis added. “But it is a serious illness, this of ideological Christians. It is an illness, but it is not new, eh?”

He said Christian ideology was the result of a lack of true prayer.


http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/10/17/pope_francis_at_mass_calls_for_greater_openness_/in2-738150
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/10/21/pope-francis-describes-ideological-christians-as-a-serious-illness-within-the-church/

[el_bryanto]

1. This belongs in the religion forum

Rather than in General discussion - all of this speech, as gratifying as it might be to some of us, refers specifically to religious principals and how to implement them.

Bryant

[Kelvin Mace]

10. I must disagree

The Catholic Church has inserted itself into U.S. elections and the political process, specifically for ideological reasons. That the new leader of the church is now denouncing ideology is very much an issue for discussion outside a religion forum.

[el_bryanto]

12. Every Church has members that are politically motivated

And the Baptist/Evangelical denominations probably have even more influence here.

If the article referenced specifically how one should implement Catholic beliefs in a political sphere, it'd would belong here - but it refers to religious belief in a more generalized term.

Bryant

[jeff47]

14. It's a very large change in political philosophy being driven by the church's new leader

That's so far-reaching that it goes well beyond religion.

Abortion access? Currently being driven away by Catholics - Catholics are taking over a lot of formerly secular hospitals.
Opposition to Gay marriage? Currently being pushed by Catholic bishops.

Heck, the US Catholic bishops are even pushing for welfare cuts and low taxes on the wealthy.

The Pope telling them "this is a bad idea" has effects far beyond religion.

[Hekate]

16. +1

[el_bryanto]

19. If this article specifically referenced those issues than it'd be fair game

But it seems more like a general statement of how to be a good Catholic in Pope Francis's mind.

Bryant

[jeff47]

20. So you need someone to hand the implications to you?

Isn't one of the points of a discussion board to discuss the implications of the stories posted?

[el_bryanto]

21. You have to ask yourself why the guidelines involving religion exist

Why are specifically religious discussions moved to the religion forum?

The answer is that they engender arguments which often don't go anywhere and just create a lot of anger. They also tend to divide members of DU in ways that aren't generally productive.

Bryant

[jeff47]

25. If the only thing being discussed was Catholicism

Then you'd have a point.

In this thread. we're talking about the secular political implications of this statement. People aren't debating the religion itself.

[tkmorris]

29. Putting a lot of effort into getting this thread banished are you?

That's rather odd.

[Myrina]

40. +1

n/t

[el_bryanto]

41. I try to be consistent - in general I approve of this story

But I would post this if it was a generalized religious bashing thread - I think the religious forum exists for a reason.

And I'm not making any effort into getting thread banished other than discussing with people who discuss with me.

[gopiscrap]

81. yeah I was wondering about that myself.

[War Horse]

61. I respectfully disagree w/your initial premise

I get where you're coming from, but not all of us are following the current pope that closely. A break from the status quo, perceived or real, in any major religion, should be ok in GD IMHO as long as it's reasonably factual and possibly relevant down the line.

It should also be fairly and reasonably be pounded upon if the OP is out of line, of course, and in time moved to the appropriate forum, if necessary

[CanonRay]

119. Exactly right, and it belongs in GD

[Kelvin Mace]

31. Protestant churches are fairly defuse

You do have folks like the Southern Baptist Convention which represents a subset of the Baptist denomination. Catholicism however, is an institution with a hierarchical structure that takes orders from ONE man. There is nothing similar in any other major faith, nothing with similar clout.

So, again, I believe that the Catholic Church making noises about changing its policy of interfering in U.S. policy and politics is fodder for more than simple religious discussion.

[Mojorabbit]

84. I agree. It is a big change. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

37. In much the same way that getting run over by a car is an issue for bicyclists that do not own cars.

[Kelvin Mace]

63. Ah, an apt anlogy

Thank you!

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

96. Agreed. The local catholic church put up "Vote for Life" signs during the last presidential

campaign. You know they were referring to abortion. They never put up signs when there's major news about an execution or people dying due to lack of health care.

[pscot]

17. That's an ideological response

This is not religion, it is wisdom. Ideology drives out not only faith, but reason also.

[roguevalley]

72. well done, pscot. I agree heartily with you. They are

missing the forest for the trees

[hunter]

36. I know personally a few right-leaning politically active Catholics who will be troubled by this.

I live in a community that is largely Roman Catholic and this statement will have some influence on politics.

I am myself some kind of Catholic -- of the radical left wing tree-hugging time-for-women-priests pacifist heretic sort.

When The Pope himself criticizes "ideological Christians," who are often the right-leaning authoritarians within our own church, it's a big deal.

(And don't forget Joe Biden is Roman Catholic, the first Roman Catholic Vice President in U.S. history.)

[War Horse]

47. I respectfully disagree w/your initial premise

I get where you're coming from, but not all of us are following the current pope that closely. A break from the status quo, perceived or real, in any major religion, should be ok in GD IMHO as long as it's reasonably factual and possibly relevant down the line.

It should be fairly and reasonably be pounded upon if the OP is out of line, of course, and in time moved to the appropriate forum, if necessary

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

100. I would also disagree

The are very definite political ramifications to the intrusion of ideology into the political arena. When a leading religious leader makes a statement of this nature, its effects will be political as well as spiritual.

Edit: Note that the discussion than has ensured is largely of a socio-political nature and not really about church policy or theology.

[el_bryanto]

102. It's gratifying that this particular time it hasn't broken down into a spat that doesn't go anywhere

But just as often that's not the case.

Bryant

[Brewinblue]

121. This affects us all.

I am a dyed-in-the-wool atheist, but I love this man. He represents the HOPE and CHANGE we sought in 2008 only to be sold a bill-of-goods. Sometimes real change comes from the damnedest places.

[Xyzse]

2. I like this Pope in comparison to his predecessors.

This to me is a step in the right direction.

Though I can agree that this should be in the religion forum.

[Tigress DEM]

87. Yes

However, if it goes in the religious forum people follow it and trample on it there too.

NOT you. You are being tolerant.

Thanks.

[Scuba]

3. I guess from now on I need to go with "Does a bear shit in the woods?"

The alternative adage is far less true than it seemed a short while ago.

[AtheistCrusader]

42. It fixes it a bit if you put a Trademark symbol after 'Catholic'.

[antiquie]

4. Wow! What a huge step in the right direction.

Thank you for posting. If this was in Religion, I would not have known.
This is very important; it could lead to less polarization.

[arendt]

5. Wow! The man is channeling Jacques Ellul...

"Every time a church tried to act through the propaganda devices accepted by
an epoch, the truth and authenticity of Christianity were debased...In such moments
(when acting through propaganda), Christianity ceases to be an overwhelming
power and spiritual adventure and becomes institutionalized in all its expressions
and compromised in all its actions. It serves everybody as an ideology with the
greatest of ease, and tends to be a hoax...Thus reduced to nothing more than an
ideology, Christianity will be treated as such by the propagandist...this ideology will
no longer be Christianity. It will be just another doctrine."

- Jacques Ellul "Propaganda"

[Tigress DEM]

101. And St Francis of Assisi

Who although he didn't write the prayer inspired it by his life. Left his rich comfortable station in life and became a monk. Took a vow of poverty and treated people and even animals with love and kindness.



Make me a channel of your peace.
Where there is hatred let me bring your love.
Where there is injury, your pardon, Lord
And where there's doubt, true faith in you.


Oh, Master grant that I may never seek
So much to be consoled as to console
To be understood as to understand
To be loved as to love with all my soul.

Make me a channel of your peace
Where there's despair in life, let me bring hope
Where there is darkness, only light
And where there's sadness, ever joy.


Make me a channel of your peace
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned
In giving to all men that we receive
And in dying that we're born to eternal life.

[Thinkingabout]

127. Pope Francis is showing he follows a path we could all follow and it is

For the believers and non believers.

[Tigress DEM]

131. Yeah. At least he is trying to be better than his predecessor.

Pope John was hardline conservative, but he actually cared.

Benedict was scary. I left the Church when he came on board.

I'm happy that Pope Francis is trying to heal some of the hurt that has been done. Even if he is not perfect in his attempt, that he attempts it is a good thing for the Church. It makes the other hardliners question themselves just a bit. Leaves room for inroads with people who have been extremely disagreeable previously.

[Thinkingabout]

132. Yes and if many more religious leaders would follow his thinking instead of the hate this

World would be better. Pope Francis is more than the Pope, he is true to his faith.

[Cartoonist]

6. True prayer?

Still not true science.

[me b zola]

76. He is speaking of faith, not science

He is talking about the hate that has infected the church from ideologues, which is not a matter of science, but of the heart.

His message seems to be a call to remove politics from the church.

[Tigress DEM]

88. SEPERATION of Church and State.... gotta love it.

Let the church do what it does and not interfere with the laws of the land or try to impose religious viewpoints onto the populace by force.

[me b zola]

93. Agreed!

I was raised ( and have it long in my blood) Catholic, but I am an outspoken secularist. A strong wall between church and state serves everyone's best interest.

[Tigress DEM]

98. Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and unto God what is God's.

Pretty straight forward from the mouth of Christ to His people on the subject.

Should be a no brainer for most Christians.

[Tigress DEM]

89. So?

Prayer is prayer and science is science.

He isn't advocating teaching creationism in schools so what are you all huffy about?

He's talking about prayer to those who pray and challenging them to not wrap prayer around their political bs. In kinder words of course.


Radical Republicans, Irate Libertarians and Inbred Fundies may be the Right Wing of "the church" but the tolerant Christians and less strident, more faith walking than talking kind of folk are the rest of the bird. People who marched with MLK in Selma and fight for peace and justice daily include LOTS of people of faith.

Scientific means a person has the ability to process logically based on facts, but it doesn't mean it has to be cold and mean and criticize everything that comes from a person who happens to have religious beliefs. NOT a lot of tolerance in THAT kind of attitude either.

[Cartoonist]

125. Things I am not tolerant of

Genocide
Homophobia
Misogyny
Child Abuse

The Catholic Church is all of these and more.
Religion, by its very nature, is intrinsically evil. The substitution of reality for a completely made up set of myths is what holds humanity back and instead, oppresses it.

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." - Denis Diderot

[Tigress DEM]

128. Baby out with the bathwater much?

I worry your list of prejudices might stretch much farther than DU could possibly contain. It seems you lack vision and tolerance in general. I could be wrong though.

I'd challenge you to be more tolerant of people who are in the general area of things you hate and not spew them with venom indiscriminately. The very people you think are so evil, could be the ones standing beside you to fight for a better America and World Peace.

You can't know the WHOLE Catholic Church, and condemning the New Pope based on what happened before he was in charge is a mistake. It's the same as blaming Obama for Bush's mistakes as well as every preceding administration. A country, the Titanic, an organized religion can not change course easily but it can happen. Pope Francis isn't perfect, no one is and he actually accepts that about himself and others. You choose to have blinders about that, it's your own loss.

Churches are places people gather to sort things out and we'd be a lot less civilized at this stage of evolution without them. It's true that religion was used to force consensus and behavior upon people, but so does society in general, the military, schools and family systems. ALL of these are not completely good or evil. They are made up of the individuals and each individual is made up of thousands of choices in their lives. There are times we can be our best self and times we just piss on each other. Best a person can do is to try and improve more and piss less.

Even a myth can teach a person who is willing to learn something about themselves and the world the myth represents and the consciousness that created the myth. I don't think that living by the standard of treating other people the way you want to be treated yourself holds anyone back and the golden rule in religion takes it a bit further and challenges people to love others in a global caring way and be there for others in a community and personal way. That isn't something that holds humanity back.

The HUGE political BS that the Churches get involved in... yeah, agree with you about that stuff. Hating in God's name, vote Republican or be ex-communicated? Bad. Right with you on the things that actually ARE evil about the Church. The Medici's, the Inquisition, the last Pope Benedict, the child abuse that was covered up. Yes you are right. Those were all bad and facilitated by a big power structure that lends itself to being misused if the people in charge aren't paying really close attention all the time. BUT not everything the Church does is bad. You are just wrong about that.

And if you want to still stubbornly insist that everything about the Church is bad, then you hate JFK, Bobby Kennedy, Jimmy Carter, Martin Luther King and everything he stands for and the Freedom Riders and Civil Rights because they were inspired by the myths the Church sells. I guess as long as gays can have rights you don't give a piss about blacks or the poor though, right? I mean their leaders were forged from the evilness of Church and Religion.

Don't be a prisoner to your own limited thinking. Life is full of surprises and not all of them are bad. We are all a little shell shocked after these last 20 years of increased partisan bickering and the church being used to beat down dissent. I am a Christian and sometimes I hate the Church. But I keep what's good and dump the rest. Even a pile of turd on the side of the road can fade into the grass and nurture the life of a flower at some point. I don't have room in my life or heart for the judgmental side of religion or far flung judgments in general. But I look at things as they are... good mixed with the bad and that's real enough for me.

[snooper2]

7. Is it true that when you get high up in church power, that the real truth is learned

That truth being there is no god but religion must survive on for the masses otherwise they would be without morals or a cause?


Or was that just in a movie I watched

[Pab Sungenis]

64. Sounds like a short story of mine that was just published.

In "The Silverfoot Heretic" a new religious leader finds out that the basis of his faith was a book called "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz."

Just came out in a charity anthology to benefit the SPCA.

Religion, based in truth or not, can be either a balm or a cudgel. Francis is trying to make it a balm again.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. This from a man who got famous by barking from balconies that gay people are

'an attack on God' and shouting that adoption by gay parents is 'child abuse' while his own church was enabling massive actual exploitation of children.
The deep hypocrisy of this man Francis is the definition of himself and of his Church.

[Arugula Latte]

13. Shhh! Don't disrupt the lovefest by calling attention to reality, please!

[roguevalley]

74. given that he is the leader of over a billion people

world wide his words are important. If this saves one person's day, then good. Put down the religion and listen to the content. What he is saying is true whether he was a man standing on the corner or the pope. Ideological thinking is not the domain of just the religious.

[Tigress DEM]

91. See post 90 - two different popes

Benedict was the barking lunatic
He was in Youths for Hitler (supposedly had no choice)
DID make anti-gay comments





POPE Francis who is the CURRENT Pope IS NOT that guy.

[Bluenorthwest]

108. You are flat out dead wrong, I am quoting Francis. Deal in facts please.

I responded to your other ugly attack post in great detail. You are in the wrong, you are incorrect. Not Benedict but Francis. I am correct. The current Pope said and did everything I mentioned. Sorry if the facts bug your agenda. But they are still the facts.

[Tigress DEM]

129. No source is not a quote. Source please.

I sourced my quotes with Pope Francis' CURRENT 2013 attitude and behavior. People are allowed to change.

Does it occur to you that seeing the Church go through the things it has could have affected the people within it and caused them to do some soul searching? Do you know how many people have left the Church because of their intolerance? Even simply as an institution the Church HAS to change in order to survive. It could be a purely selfish move, but the tone he is taking now is a step in the right direction. Why piss on it?


AND you can CLAIM to quote all you want, but it is LAZY DU to CLAIM to quote and not provide the source.

Until I see it for myself, I don't have to accept your argument as valid in the slightest.

[Arugula Latte]

120. Pope Francis has indeed made some very awful rightwing statements...

...for example, that gay marriage is the work of Satan. Yes, he's better than Benedict (and who wouldn't be?) but that's not saying much.

[Tigress DEM]

130. No source - not buying it. nt

[Arugula Latte]

133. Here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-francis-gay-marriage-anti_n_2869221.html

[Tigress DEM]

135. Thank you.

Pope Francis Against Gay Marriage, Gay Adoption

The Huffington Post | By Cavan Sieczkowski Posted: 03/13/2013 4:57 pm EDT

SO is it possible that confronted with how intolerant he appeared to the World, the Pope Francis made a conscious choice to move away from those stereotypes?

Priests on up work with people every day to help them open their hearts to being better people.

Maybe it is purely political. I hope not.

But even if it is, then the world has influenced him to make better choices in spite of long held beliefs and he's doing it from a position of power in such a way that it actually helps the LGBT community.

I still say that his position NOW is helpful and hopefully he learned his lesson trying to do battle against a people and a movement that is supposedly about tolerance, although some conversations around here make me wonder at times.

Peace.

[jeff47]

15. The fact that he fails on some subjects doesn't mean he fails in all subjects. (nt)

[AtheistCrusader]

43. It does since he represents himself as the infallable supreme power of the church.

(infallible when speaking ex cathedra, etc)

Whole thing kinda implodes on itself if you allow squishy waffling of any sort.

[jeff47]

45. I'm presuming the person I replied to isn't Catholic, since they are questioning the Pope. (nt)

[uponit7771]

54. This is false

[AtheistCrusader]

60. Oh? Do tell.

[joeglow3]

113. The pope is NOT infallible at all times

Do your homework before pretending you know what you are talking about.

[AtheistCrusader]

117. Perhaps you could start with the simple research of actually READING MY POST.

"infallible when speaking ex cathedra, etc"

Since you probably can't be bothered to find it yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_cathedra#Ex_cathedra

Research indeed.

[tblue37]

83. Although I am an atheist, I keep track of what popes say, because they

wield such influence.

Francis recently pretty much refuted the idea of papal infallibility. He said the church itself, meaning the faithful as a whole, were infallible *over time* as they became more mature in faith. That is also the reason he gave for why supposedly infallible previous papal pronouncements could be modified or rejected in later times, as faith and morality matured in the church as a whole.

[Tigress DEM]

92. Thank you. Not only do you know the difference between Benedict and Francis....

You are actually correctly attributing what Francis has said and making insightful deductions.

I'm a Christian, but I love moderate atheists who aren't always running around trying to grind an ax into anything Christian.


GIVE PEACE a chance! It's a HUMAN Value as much as a moral tradition.

[Bluenorthwest]

70. He is wrong to count himself among the righteous rather than among those

he is speaking of. He is dogmatic and ideological as it gets. He is the very thing he preaches at. Picture of hypocrisy and superstition.

[Tigress DEM]

99. Wrong Pope. See post 90. Pope Francis is NOT like Pope Benedict. AT ALL. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

109. No, correct Pope. I am quoting Francis.

Nearly three years before Argentina became known as home to the first Latin American pope, it made history as the first country in the region to approve gay marriage – an action that then-Cardinal Bergoglio actively opposed.

The gay community here remembers Bergoglio, now Pope Francis, as the man who launched "a war of God" against the move to approve gay marriage.

"He was the visible face of the Catholic Church's opposition to equal marriage and he approached it from a fundamentalist position, posturing that he had to wage a war of God against what he considered a plan of the devil," said Esteban Paulon, president of the Argentine Federation of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals and Transsexuals.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/15/argentine-gay-pope-francis-war-of-god-against-same-sex-marriage_n_2885596.html

1. A Senate vote on gay marriage is a destructive pretension against the plan of God

From a letter to the Carmelite Sisters of Buenos Aires on the perils of marriage equality:

“Let’s not be naïve, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

2. Gay marriage will destroy the family

More from the same letter to the four monasteries of Argentina:

“The Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family… At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children.
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

[Tigress DEM]

138. OK I get what happened in Argentina. So why do you think he changed his position?

Have you ever been someone who had to learn acceptance of gays? You know a lot about it from your own perspective, but do you understand what happens to someone who learns tolerance and changes their mind about what gays are really about?

It doesn't happen neatly and everyone has stupid stuff they learned growing up and a lot of people learned a lot of stupid stuff about gays and blacks and women ... the list goes on and on.

Did you ever see something you did in a full blown newspaper and get tons of letters about it and possibly heart wrenching stories because what you did or said HURT people? Probably not at that level. But I'm sure if you are a human and not a bot that you've made a mistake, been called on it and decided to do things differently.

ANY possibility that this Pope actually got his prejudice thrown in his face and he didn't like what it looked like?

ANY possibility that this Pope sees what harm has come to the Church when HATRED is allowed to come FROM the Church?

ANY possibility that actually being the leader of the Church makes him see things differently than when he was a little crusader trying to make a name for himself.

DO you know how many Catholics have LEFT the Church due to THIS ISSUE of intolerance? Don't you think he'd be kind of stupid NOT to find a different approach, even if it's purely political?

Besides now he's said it and he kinda has to live up to it. Damage done. We win.

[Vashta Nerada]

26. + a gazillion

[TygrBright]

35. I've heard it said that the view from the Vatican balcony changes some men.

I've heard it said that people's views can evolve.

I've heard it said that people can take steps in new directions based on old learning.

I've heard it said that reflecting on having the power to make statements and decisions that affect larger numbers of people can inspire self-examination and new humility.

I've heard it said that who we were in our twenties, thirties, forties, fifties even, isn't necessarily the same as who we are in our sixties, seventies, or eighties.

I've heard it said that sometimes people re-think dogmatic positions and beliefs, and find new openness to broader acceptance and caring regardless of belief.

But I'm sure it never happens.

wearily,
Bright

[daleanime]

55. +1

[Bluenorthwest]

71. How sweet of you. Is that what I said, that people never change? No.

What I said is that Francis has not changed. And he has not. He rose to power as an anti gay crusader and he still says the same shit. He's the Pat Roberson of Rome. If he was to make penance and turn from his sinful ways I'd welcome that. But those of you who celebrate him while he is still a bigot are celebrating a bigot. This is something you need to accept or stop doing.

[Pab Sungenis]

65. We Catholics believe in the influence of the Holy Spirit.

It is possible that the Spirit came upon him at his election and changed him.

In secular terms, once he was the boss instead of an underling he could do what he wanted.

[Bluenorthwest]

73. So what? He and his hierarchy still attack gay people and oppose our equality

Is that a fruit of the Holy Spirit, to harm others for being gay? Or is that belief seen as warrant to do harm?
If he is changed, he would change. As boss, he has not chided his fire breathing underlings. So when he was an underling, he had to do as he was told, but now his underlings don't have to do what he says?
Is the Holy Spirit duplicitous by nature?

[Tigress DEM]

90. I think you have the wrong Pope in mind.

NEW POPE = Francis (nice guy)
http://world.time.com/2013/09/19/pope-francis-expresses-tolerance-of-gays-support-for-women/

“A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality,” he continued. “I replied with another question: ‘Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person.”

"... We have to work harder to develop a profound theology of the woman. Only by making this step will it be possible to better reflect on their function within the church. The feminine genius is needed wherever we make important decisions.”




***********************************************************************


OLD POPE = Benedict (Yes, he was a barking, raving lunatic)



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/pope-anti-gay-speech_n_2344870.html

Pope Benedict Takes Anti-Gay Marriage To New Level In Christmas Speech On Family Values

By NICOLE WINFIELD 12/21/12 06:10 PM

<snip>
In his remarks, Benedict quoted the chief rabbi of France, Gilles Bernheim, in saying the campaign for granting gays the right to marry and adopt children was an "attack" on the traditional family made up of a father, mother and children.

[Bluenorthwest]

107. No, I am quoting Francis as Bergoglio. Sorry, I am not confused, you are in denial

"he gay community here remembers Bergoglio, now Pope Francis, as the man who launched "a war of God" against the move to approve gay marriage.
He was the visible face of the Catholic Church's opposition to equal marriage and he approached it from a fundamentalist position, posturing that he had to wage a war of God against what he considered a plan of the devil," said Esteban Paulon, president of the Argentine Federation of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals and Transsexuals.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/15/argentine-gay-pope-francis-war-of-god-against-same-sex-marriage_n_2885596.html

Here is a collection of some of his worst statements.
"1. A Senate vote on gay marriage is a destructive pretension against the plan of God

From a letter to the Carmelite Sisters of Buenos Aires on the perils of marriage equality:

“Let’s not be naïve, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

2. Gay marriage will destroy the family

More from the same letter to the four monasteries of Argentina:

“The Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family… At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children."
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

So this is what you are promoting here, even to the point where you lecture down to me for being correct. Apology would be in order in decent circles.

[Celefin]

94. That was Ratzinger, "God's Rottweiler"

And he got that nickname for the stuff you cite among a lot of similar rantings.

[Bluenorthwest]

110. Wrong, I am quoting and speaking of Francis, if you folks can't accept facts you

do not get to make up new ones.
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

[Celefin]

122. And you don't get to baselessly insult all of 'us folks', sorry.

I did not know about the letter that is quoted in your link, okay? If I had, I wouldn't 'have made up new facts'.
I remember this crap from Ratzinger, that's all.

Also, I don't camp in front of my laptop all day so there is no need to be 'surprised that none of the Francis fans don't respond' while you wait. Also, that being happy about a pope changing the church's tone dramatically todaymakes one a 'Francis fan' is a strange view to take at best. He may have spouted bigoted bullshit in 2010 but todayhe is pissing off all the right people and actually changing the discourse.

I'll never be a 'fan' of any pope, but I give him the benefit of the doubt regarding a learning process on his side whereas you most emphatically don't.
Fair enough and absolutely understandable, I just fail to see how this warrants resorting to insults.
Peace.

[Tigress DEM]

139. More benefit of the doubt and more sharing info without insulting is a good idea.

I personally don't understand how this new message can be turned into a bad thing.

I see their point about 2010 now, but he kind of got plastered with that failure and maybe doesn't want to go down that same road and had a different idea.

I wonder if people who have been subjected to so much prejudice over time are simply nervous to trust a seemingly sudden change of heart. That is valid, but then I'd be better able to understand that kind of conversation vs the whole screaming memie thing. Makes me wanna say, "I'm on the side of Gay Rights, quit banging me over the head now, please."

Still DU does kind of balance out once everyone really gets talking instead of defending their positions.

[distantearlywarning]

9. I like Francis a lot. Best Pope in my lifetime.

I'm not even Catholic, but I really approve of a lot of the things he says and does. Unlike many of the other higher-ups of the Vatican, he seems to be making a sincere effort to live by the principles of Christ.

That being said, I seriously worry about the man's longevity. I can't imagine that the Pharisees in the Vatican are too happy with their new choice for Pope right about now, not to mention the Opus Dei types and other fundamentalist whack-jobs in the church. I worry that Francis may be assassinated, and that makes me sad.

[Kelvin Mace]

11. This sounds all well and good

but until his viewpoints translate to actual actions (for example, purging the hardline ideologists from leadership roles in the church), the words are pretty much meaningless.

[Hekate]

22. There's plenty of "actual action" being personally instigated by Pope Francis. Heads are rolling.

The man is moving on remarkably well for someone who arrived only 7 months ago. Just the fact that he refuses to live in the Papal apartments inside the Papal Palace is a major statement that is shaking up the hierarchy that thought they would have control over his daily life.

There's also this:

Pope Francis launches reform of Vatican bureaucracy, with cleanup of Vatican bank

Since succeeding Benedict XVI, Francis has publicly sought to transform the tone of his office, extending surprise olive branches to everyone from gays and lesbians to professed atheists. But much more quietly, Vatican officials and observers say, the new pontiff has also begun to alter the atmosphere inside the Holy See, taking steps to shed light on the notoriously opaque Vatican Curia. >snip<

In a place where change is often measured in decades if not centuries, Francis personally moved to oust top officials of the secretive Vatican bank only days after a fresh corruption scandal engulfed the institution, officials say. Francis has also backed a push for greater financial transparency, while moving faster than many expected to replace Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone — Benedict’s secretary of state, who once wielded the power of a vice pope. Bertone, who allegedly stymied efforts to clean up Vatican City, was seen by many observers as a big part of the Holy See’s problem.

More reforms are coming. Two Vatican officials with direct knowledge of the situation said the pope is preparing to consolidate the Curia’s myriad operations, with the aim of reducing the size of the bureaucracy. Francis has recently suggested that clerics should focus on their home dioceses rather than angle for prestigious postings in the Holy See. His new advisory board of eight cardinals from around the globe is seen as a counterweight to the power of Vatican-based authorities.
>snip<Massimo Teodori, a former Italian senator and longtime critic of the Holy See ...said... "under this pope, the power of the Curia around Cardinal Bertone is already no more.” >snip<

(regarding the Bank -- recall there are 1 billion Catholics) Inside the former office of the bank’s president, a team of 25 consultants is now laboring under a dark painting of the Crucifixion. The team from Promontory, a New York-based outfit specializing in regulatory policy and bank cleanups, arrived in July, with the mission of vetting every single account held by the Vatican bank’s 19,000 clients.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/pope-francis-launches-reform-of-vatican-bureaucracy-with-cleanup-of-vatican-bank/2013/10/18/28b99ecc-3430-11e3-89db-8002ba99b894_story.html

There's lots more at the link to the WaPo.

[Kelvin Mace]

34. He is cleaning up the Vatican's dodgy finances,

you are correct. But, I was thinking more in terms of instructing the Church leadership to start butting out of politics and pay more attention to looking after the poor and sick. Telling bishops to STOP stonewalling police investigations and courts by hiding records documenting sexual abuse by the clergy. To expel people like Bernard Law from the church to face legal prosecution.

Less hurried sanctifying of John Paul II (who was at best an enabler of child molesters, and at worst an accomplice) and more defrocking of priests, bishops and cardinals guilty of harming children.

Little things like that will represnt meaningful change in the church. I am glad Francis may be cutting ties with the Mafia and other criminal cartels, but he still has a long way to go in my book on matters of far more importance.

[Hekate]

49. Every other breath he tells Church leadership to "pay more attention to looking after the poor...

... and sick." Seriously. From the first day in office. From the time he was a Cardinal taking the city bus.

If you don't know that much about Pope Francis, it's because you have had other things on your mind and have not been paying attention to his doings. He's the head of a faith of a billion people; he's the head of a bureaucracy 2000 years old; he's the head of a nation-state whose Cardinals are called "princes of the Church." Things move sloooowly in the Church -- by comparison, Pope Francis is zipping along at the speed of light.

[Kelvin Mace]

62. I have been paying attention

I am an ex-Catholic (ex-altar boy and survivor of nuns) and VERY familiar with the how the church works.

When all is said and said and done, much has been said, little has been done.

He is the Pope, and all it takes is his ORDERING it to happen for it to happen. If he orders an investigation of Bernard Law, one takes place. If he orders bishops to turn over all the records of child molesters to the police, then they are turned over. Ostensibly, he doesn't answer to anyone save "God". He doesn't have to consult with anyone if he doesn't want to, including "princes of the church".

If one were conspiratorially-minded, one could note that John Paul I was planning on liberalizing the church and his papacy lasted about a month before he was found dead under curious circumstances. Perhaps Francis is worried about a similar fate

Francis has fired people at the Vatican bank and ordered its books be placed in order. He talked about it, then he DID it. So far, he has talked a lot about changing the tone of the church and about the poor, and not obsessing on gays and abortion, He certainly sets a good example in frugality, but until he ORDERS things done in his capacity as Pope, nothing will change.

[Tigress DEM]

86. He's getting a revolution started...

The Cardinal College has a lot of power, but his words move the WHOLE church to change.

[HockeyMom]

18. Sounds like the Ryans and Santorums

of this country.

[hunter]

39. I bet they don't like this Pope...

[SoapBox]

46. Ditto to that!

[HockeyMom]

51. We're going to screw the Poor/Middle Class,

Sick, and Elderly; and while we're at it, going to persecute the Muslims. Praise the Lord! We are good Christians because we want to ban Birth Control, Abortion, and Gay Marriage.

I do think with the statements Pope Francis has made he is using AMERICA as an example. How could he not?

[Bluenorthwest]

75. Francis is opposed to abortion and gay marriage, in his home nation he was

a political activist opposing any and all advancement of rights for LGBT peoples. He was Santorum, a Dolan

[Tigress DEM]

106. Need a source on that. Pope Benedict YES was. But Pope Francis has spoken up for gays as people.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/pope-francis-gays_n_3669635.html


Now he has made another headline, this time when the pontiff said, "Who am I to judge a gay person?"



He is still the Pope and Catholic, so he isn't in favor of the activity, but he doesn't support gluttony or divorce either necessarily as policy. However, taking the JUDGMENTAL attitude out of it is HUGE for his office.

It would be like a Mullah reversing the judgmental behavior of killing women for the offense of allowing themselves to be raped. Not the whole solution, but a step in the right direction and important.

He's telling all Catholics around the world, STOP persecuting people for being gay. He's telling other religions that the Catholic church isn't going to condone hatred of gays. Which means a lot of people unhappy with other churches might just switch.

[Bluenorthwest]

111. Are you claiming Francis is pro choice? I've posted about the gay attacks many times.

Nearly three years before Argentina became known as home to the first Latin American pope, it made history as the first country in the region to approve gay marriage – an action that then-Cardinal Bergoglio actively opposed.

The gay community here remembers Bergoglio, now Pope Francis, as the man who launched "a war of God" against the move to approve gay marriage.

"He was the visible face of the Catholic Church's opposition to equal marriage and he approached it from a fundamentalist position, posturing that he had to wage a war of God against what he considered a plan of the devil," said Esteban Paulon, president of the Argentine Federation of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals and Transsexuals.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/15/argentine-gay-pope-francis-war-of-god-against-same-sex-marriage_n_2885596.htl

"In fact, then-Cardinal Jose Bergoglio was a major force against the 2010 move to legalize same-sex marriage in his native Argentina. Though he ultimately failed, Bergoglio used the full weight of the church to crush the measure.

Here, a collection of his very worst quotes on the issue.

1. A Senate vote on gay marriage is a destructive pretension against the plan of God

From a letter to the Carmelite Sisters of Buenos Aires on the perils of marriage equality:

“Let’s not be naïve, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

Edited to add a special note that you equate being gay with gluttony and our marriages with heterosexual's divorces. Disgusting.

[Tigress DEM]

134. Maybe since it passed in Argentina and he saw the results, he had to start seeing reason.

Your first link is a 404 that goes nowhere. But ok, I'll accept it anyway.

In 2010 he tried to stop gay marriage in Argentina. OK. Is he doing that NOW?

People change their attitude about gays and gay marriage when they actually SEE them as people. What better opportunity to see them as people than to have it legalized in his backyard and see that God did not fly out of the sky and smite everyone?

RE: your "special note" On the level of "sinfulness" whatever someone does that is against "the list" is just as bad as anything else, but it doesn't mean that the people are bad. That is all I meant. You dig deep to find a way to be offended, knock yourself out if that's your thing.

Would you like it better if I compared it to wearing white after labor day? SOME people object. I don't. I don't object to gays or fat people or divorced people. Everyone's choices are the best they can make for themselves in the situation they have been dealt in life.

The world is evolving to a more friendly climate for gays and you want to attack people in the institutions who are trying to help that along.... ESPECIALLY if they were a big part of the problem to begin with? WHY WOULDN'T you want him to have a change of heart? WHY do you HAVE to look deeply and take offense where none was meant?

You can't make people like you and accept you exactly as you are by going on attack. There is no "make" to it.

I have gay people I love in my life and THEY are the reason I care and tolerate this kind of nastiness. For their sake.

[Bluenorthwest]

115. You equate being gay with gluttony, demand sources and when you get them

you fall silent. Noted.

[theHandpuppet]

116. Naw... being gay is just "an activity"

Rather like playing monopoly or bowling, I guess. No big deal. Just don't be gay.

(I'm guessing I don't need the sarcasm thingy)

[Bluenorthwest]

118. I am surprised that not one of the Francis fans had the guts to respond to the

anti gay quotes from Francis. 'Oh, you are thinking of Benedict' they say then when shown what Frankie says they fall silent. Equates being gay with gluttony and divorce and thinks that is acceptable. Unreal.

[Tigress DEM]

141. Since I responded to this in another post. I'll keep this short.

Please stop banging me over the head. I support gay rights. I'm on your side.

CHILL OUT.

You're taking what I say out of context. I was at work when you got online.

Everyone sins in one way or another if you look at it from a Biblical perspective. The guy runs THE Church. So far (not in my opinion, rather) in the eyes of the Church being gay is some sort of sin. Maybe support of bashing gays will go the way of realizing that eating shellfish or cutting one's hair has nothing to do with sincere faith. That epilepsy is not demonic possession. Many false ideas have been abandoned by the Church. It formerly recognizes the Earth is round and revolves around the Sun. OK?

I'm not trying to belittle gay people when I look at all the things the Church has learned to be less uptight about and hope they will learn to accept gays as well.

The point I tried to make is that the Church being uptight about gays is counterproductive even to its own welfare and the lengths religion goes to in order to try and ban it or belittle it is silly in my mind because it's so petty.

[Tigress DEM]

137. Why are you acting like I am anti-gay? I'm not.

What I tried to point out is that the church has learned to be more tolerant, maybe some people here could learn to do the same.

THE whole gist of the OP was that the New Pope's positions are HELPFUL in the here and now to the LGBT community.

NOW that I've seen the sources, I can understand your concern.

STILL the Pope's behavior now shows he understands that the Church loses when it tries to crush people who really aren't much of a problem in the grand scheme of things... except when they are being crushed and abused. Does the Church benefit from trying to prevent gays from legally marrying outside of the church? NO. Can they give up that fight and encourage tolerance? It looks like it. Does it mean gays are going to get Catholic Church weddings any time soon? Probably not.

BUT if Pope Francis steps away from the intense political fray AGAINST gays, then maybe 36 more states will have the courage to support the legal rights of gays which is first and foremost important. Because better laws mean less discrimination and then we can have higher level discussions once the foundational discrimination issues are addressed.

[Tigress DEM]

136. NO I was at work at 10:05am. Nice try. nt

[Lobo27]

23. I hope he has food tasters... If not he will soon suddenly die imo.

[bklyncowgirl]

27. Maybe that's why he lives in the hostel and eats with the other guys.

He says he needs other people around him. Maybe he means that in more ways than the lets out. Eating the same things a whole bunch of other people are eating is pretty good insurance.

[awoke_in_2003]

24. Religion, at its very core...

is a serious illness.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

28. Exhibit A: Ideological christian Republicans have closed the door on Jesus, except as a puppet

So, America was founded on a Foreign born, Brown skinned, Jewish guy who never spoke a word of English, fed and healed the poor for Free, Defended a woman from being slut-shamed & killed, and chose not to conform to either Religious or Political nonsense?

Cool..., When are we gonna start that?"

[closeupready]

32. And said ZERO words about gays.

Imagine that.

[Tigress DEM]

142. More Popes and Christians could take a clue from that. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

44. And flipped over the tables of the money changers...

[Tigress DEM]

143. Yeah, when are we going to go after all the CEO's and Bank Moguls that nearly destroyed US?

[99th_Monkey]

30. Go Francis!! A huge improvement over Pope Ratzinger

who was too busy demonizing Buddhism as being a "masturbatory" faith.

[DallasNE]

33. Sounds Like He Is Defining The Heirarchy Of The Catholic Church

As much as Christians as a whole so what is he going to do about the leadership issue within his own faithful.

[msongs]

38. did he sell the vatican treasures and give the money to the poor yet? nt

[Tigress DEM]

144. Not yet, but if he follows in the original footsteps of St Francis... it might happen.

Course, they think St Francis had a little manic-depression going on due to the running around naked at times.


No one is perfect.

[AnneD]

48. I love this guy.....

And I am not Catholic. IMHO, this guy is the real deal.

[Hekate]

50. Same here

[Beacool]

77. Me too!!!

[DevonRex]

80. So do I. And neither am I. But

my Fundy family will just have a fit that I posted a passage of his sermon on Facebook and said I loved this Pope. They're all about exact translations and doctrine.

[AnneD]

114. Can't see the forest for the trees......

My walking buddy and I had a long talk about Pope Francis yesterday while on our daily walk. She is Christian from India. We talked about Christianity without spirituality. Likened it to playing an instrument-some people need the sheet music and play exactly as it is written and some folks know it by heart and can wing it comfortably. I think Pope Francis is improvising some riffs and some people are not comfortable in their faith to play along.

Go daddy go.

[DevonRex]

123. I've always likened it to having to follow a recipe

exactly. They've reduced the Bible to a recipe book and faith to nothing more than following instructions and ingredients. Where's the faith in that?

Pope Frank said exactly what I've been saying all these years. People who do that do it because they don't have faith. It only substitutes for it. It's a tool like a baby blanket. If it fails, they can say "but I followed the recipe exactly!"

[AnneD]

124. As one cook to another I agree...

but my Indian friend is a musician-thus the analogy.

I have faith that when I mix flour, baking powder, salt, sugar, eggs, and vanilla together and bake them I will get a cookie. But the real miracle happens when I put in raisins, chocolate chips, pecans, or berries. It is always better than I could have imagined.

I have studied all different faiths and found wonderful nuggets of truth in each of them. They have all added to my having a richer spiritual life.

[Wounded Bear]

52. So Frankie.....

nice speech (Me? TL/DR) but can you come over here and stop your Catholic Ministries megacorp from taking over all the hospitals in WA state? Please?

http://www.healthcare-freedom.net/the-issues.html

The words sound nice, but the Catholic Church is still the oldest and prototypical Multinational Corporation.

[saynotoplutocrats]

53. Republicans are the Pharisees of our time

The views of Pope Francis have huge implications for US politics, I am glad to see the discussion here. For so long the significant mainstream Christian spokespersons have been ideologists. As Francis correctly observes, their teachings are more like the teachings of the corrupt Pharisees and lawyers than the teachings of Jesus. It is impossible for a real Christian to support the GOP efforts to deprive millions of Americans of health care. If more Christians listened to real religious leaders like Pope Francis, they would realize this.

[gopiscrap]

67. Welcome to DU

[saynotoplutocrats]

145. When I feed the poor, they call me saint. When I ask why so many are poor, they call me communist

Amen. From what I remember of Hélder Câmara and Gustavo Gutiérrez in the ‘70s, some of those screaming “red” the loudest were inside the Vatican. It’s great to hear this kind of message coming from the top.

[gopiscrap]

146. yup I agree and I remember as a kid listening to Vatican officials yelling about it

I was taught at a Roman Catholic School by Franciscan's who had a huge penchant for the social gospel. In my mid teens I became the foster child of a very liberal Lutheran minister and his wife. I was blest enough to have wonderful role models. I have spent my entire adult life working for peace and justice (both my mom and died were war casualties) and also I run a peace and justice organization.

[AlbertCat]

56. ‘ideological Christians’

But all Christians are ‘ideological Christians’.... since the whole shebang is MADE UP.

[dickthegrouch]

57. I'm warming to this pope

from 0K to about 10K (-273C to -263C for the non-scientists), but I like the way he's shaking things up.

[FreakinDJ]

58. 1 more thing they'll hate Catholics for

The Truth

[Kurska]

59. I'm say this as someone who had dumped a metric to of criticism on the catholic church recently

I still kinda like this pope.

He isn't where I want him to be on gay rights, but he could be way worse.

I disagree with religion in general, but I have no doubt that he is motivated by love and tolerance of humanity.

[markpkessinger]

66. If he continues with this sort of doctrinal humility . . .

. . . he may soon find he has become an Anglican! (Just sayin'.)

[gopiscrap]

69. Or Lutheran

[gopiscrap]

68. yup

[Demo_Chris]

78. Until he stops covering up for child rapists he has no moral authority to speak about anything. nt

[liberal N proud]

79. NAILED IT!

[Pisces]

82. As an ex Catholic, I have to say that I am surprised and happy with the new Pope. I like what he is

saying. He may not change the doctrines, but his words carry a strong message to the followers.

[Tigress DEM]

85. YES!!!

OMG A REAL POPE!!

Those who HATE in God's name are not filled with LOVE but FEAR and their prayers treat God like a fast order chef. I want this and that and I want it now.


REAL prayer is for God's will and the ultimate benefit of ALL God's people - even those who don't happen to believe are still to be treated with prayerful respect and Gods love, compassion and forgiveness.


NOW hypocrits... should probably STILL try to treat them nice but firm. THEY KNOW BETTER or should.


MOney changers - kick them to the curb.

[Celefin]

95. Give that man some time.

Critical reflections on religious ideology from a pope... that's pretty amazing.

It find it strange what patience and he/she-needs-more-time attitudes many politicians receive in relation to changing a system that has evolved over little more than two centuries (and in many places only a few decades) - in contrast to a pope who is expected to change a behemoth of a system that has been in place for about two millennia pretty much over night.

Francis has, compared to the history of the catholic church, already turned that steering wheel so hard that all the timbers in this old ship are creaking ominously. He is pissing off all the right people.

I say give him time. If anyone needs time it's him. As an example, don't ever expect the church's attitude on gay rights to change if you vilify a pope like Francis who speaks of gays as persons(!), persons that Jesus will love no matter what. Yes it is very little... but its importance as a first step can hardly be overstated.

You need a pope Francis if you want to open up for the possibility of increasingly 'progressive' heads of the church in future.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

97. A catholic friend of mine said they're going to have to kill this pope. He is not uphodling the RW

interpretation of the church and many people are not at all happy about that.

[Sunlei]

103. "ideologies are rigid, always. "

[LumosMaxima]

104. If this guy had been pope 25 years ago . . .

. . . it might have slowed my exit from the church, although I think I still would have left eventually. As some others have said, I kind of wonder if the Curia will let him live. I think he's on the right track, and I hope he's able to make real changes.

[William Seger]

105. Republican Jesus wept

[RedCappedBandit]

112. The mythical Jesus would vomit if he saw the Vatican.

I can't help but see some irony in these statements coming from the leader of the Catholic church.

[libdem4life]

126. Comparative Religions show that the Creation Story, even though scientifically questioned as a myth,

has a similar version in almost all cultures. Same was true for The Flood...different names and geographical locations.

Jesus is said (and there were some pretty strong facts around this) to have possibly lived as a Hindu in India during what Christians call The Lost years between 12 and 30.

None of the New Testament writers ever met Jesus...he preceded all of them in death.

There are more similarities between religions than arguments because it is one of the foundations of culture, along with language, family structure and storytelling.

I really like this Pope.

[Electric Monk]

140. I think I'm starting to like this Pope Francis guy. He's way cooler than Pope Hitler Youth was. nt