We do need a REAL Men's Movement

[Taverner]

Not this angry divorcee bullshit, nor women bashing, nor any of these other so called "men's movements..."

But what we need is a way for us men to throw off the chains of patriarchy. For the record, women aren't the only ones fucked over by these stale remnants of Paters Familia.

And guess what? When we have a real movement we'll know it because women will help us throw off our chains.

Men should hate patriarchy as much as women do. Patriarchy is why custody hearings are biased. Patriarchy is why men get asked first, and women as an afterthought. Patriarchy is why the advertising industry wants all of us men to be James Bond.

[Blue_Tires]

1. I don't even speak about feminist issues anymore

Even though (I think) my heart is in the right place, I always end up saying the wrong things...

[Throd]

2. There is a small group of bullies here who think they own the issue. They'll be here soon enough.

[BainsBane]

73. You mean women who have the nerve to speak their mind?

Awful, isn't it. Imagine women thinking they have a right to speak about issues that concern them, when everyone knows only men can tell us what's good for us. Damn, uppity women.

[Decaffeinated]

102. I'm sure that's exactly what he meant...

[BainsBane]

129. When people say someone claims to speak for everyone

Or "own an issue," what they really mean is they want them to keep their mouths shut. He obviously feels put out someone disagreed with him over women's rights. Amazingly, some women actually think they have a right to determine what is important to them. I realize it's shocking.

[Throd]

188. No, that isn't what I meant at all.

But you're a good illustration of my point.

[BainsBane]

215. as you are mine

You categorize my speaking my mind as bullying. That you don't like what I say doesn't make it bullying. It makes it an opinion you disagree with. By calling it bullying, you seek to delegimate those who articulate views you don't like.

[tillikum]

113. just maybe it isn't the person and their experiences being mocked,

but the lack of a lucid argument and the absurdity of what is being promoted as intelligent discourse!!

no matter how hard we try to press the former over the latter

[nadinbrzezinski]

204. ^^^^Thread winner^^^

[pintobean]

210. ...

[BainsBane]

216. The feminists aren't the ones who bully you.

You would know that if you took time to distinguish between those you disagree with and members who are nasty to you.

[AverageJoe90]

207. Unfortunately, I've come across a few of these too(not on DU, though!).

You ever seen any of these particular "all white people are racist"/"all racism is structural, therefore only white people can be racist/bigoted", "white people should not ever discuss racism and should keep their mouths shut at all times", type people? They may be small in number, but they are quite vocal sometimes; they're one of the biggest problem factions, along with the radfems(though, surprisingly, from what I've observed, these groups intersect a lot more often than you'd think, even if they seem to be at each other's throats half the time). Unfortunately, they really do raise a hell of a stink sometimes, and what's really unfortunate is that many times, members of this small faction claim, at some point, to represent the views of most, if not all, African-Americans, Chicanos, and other Persons of Color(I've seen this term used quite a bit by feminists of all backgrounds, hopefully it's kosher for DU) involved in feminism and certain other types of (positive) activism, when in reality, it's much more complex than they are willing to consider.

Personally, I just try to ignore them, but it's not always easy.

[fitman]

29. Advertising wants men to be like James Bond? LOL

Every single commercial on TV the man is the doofus and needs saved.

[mindwalker_i]

3. We need an imaginary men's movement

Or do both and have a complex intersection of idea.

[Warren DeMontague]

79. We need an Invisible Men's Movement.

"Ever seen a shirt make a phone call?"

[Warpy]

4. And patriarchy is why the only emotion "real" men are allowed is anger.

Yes, you bet it's limiting and obsolete and men should celebrate ending it as much as we do.

James Bond or John Wayne, the standards are two dimensional and damaging.

[Taverner]

5. Yep. Exactly. It's not exactly fun to be trapped in that.

And a real feminist would support a real men's movement, since it clearly dovetails into feminism

[tavalon]

59. I completely agree.

I must be a real feminist. Actually, more than that, I'm a humanist, as in, for human rights and responsibilities, gender aside, but not gender ignored because patriarchy, as you have said, has hurt us all, badly.

[llmart]

125. Guess I'm a "real" feminist too.....

because I have often felt that men have some pretty stupid "ideals" to live up to too! The whole concept of men not being allowed to show or even have real emotions hurts us all. I left a long term marriage because my ex had no idea what his emotions were let alone examine them and try to be introspective enough to figure out why he had so many issues.

Kudos to you Taverner for bringing this up. I have three brothers and watching them has been a real education on the ways in which we need to change how male/female relationships evolve. I also have a son and I decided a long time ago I would do my best to try to change the way boys were raised from when I was growing up in the '50's. I think I did a darned good job, but our culture and society have an influence too and sometimes their influence is greater than the parent's.

[elehhhhna]

127. he's a maudlin drunk

who only cries when talking about HIMSELF (truefact)

Great pic!

[SidDithers]

180. "I love you, man!!"...

[Jamastiene]

124. Exactly.

I get so sick of hearing the meme that "real" men don't cry. Why shouldn't men be allowed any other emotion besides anger? That's ridiculous. They are thinking, feeling beings who should not be told what to feel and what not to feel by patriarchal traditions. Most men cry at some point. So, obviously, "real" men DO cry.

[The2ndWheel]

126. That's not really the case

That's not the "only" emotion that men are "allowed" to have, whether they be real or imaginary men.

[LiberalLoner]

167. +1

[trumad]

6. whats wrong with James Bond?

[Taverner]

9. Watch James Bond, yes. BE James Bond, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy

[trumad]

11. Yeah that would totally suck

[Taverner]

21. Good sex seems to be the only benefit of being Bond

That and the gadgets

Even still - the love of your life - the only women you could call a partner - is dead. Dead because of you.

You are an alcoholic.

You have no friends and you kill without feeling.

Even all the Halie Berries in the world won't make up for that

[Egalitarian Thug]

13. Alcoholic, misogynistic psychopath.

And I say this as a long-time fan of the books and the non-Roger Moore films.

There's a John Travolta picture called Swordfish that is, essentially, a Bond adventure from the other side's viewpoint.

Edit: And ^ she's ^ in Swordfish, too.

[trumad]

14. Yeah--you know what that alcohol can do.

[Taverner]

22. ETOH = Muscles, only in movies!

[Egalitarian Thug]

23. Are you saying Daniel Craig is an alcoholic?

Are you saying James Bond is not?

Have you ever read a Bond story?

[trumad]

26. Nope---just watch the movies.

Now Rodger Moore--maybe.

[quinnox]

7. I like a lot of "guy" things

like cheesy action movies and yes, James Bond. Or Arnold Schwarzenegger movies in the 80s, such as "Conan the Barbarian". Or Clint Eastwood type westerns, where he plays a macho bad-ass... I don't think there is a thing wrong with liking this stuff, sorry.

[Taverner]

8. I never said there was, jeez

Yes, watch James Bond.

But do you want to BE James Bond?

Before answering that, should I describe James Bond, a ruthless detached killer stuck in a state of arrested development who can't hold any relationships with women other than sexual.

No you don't want to be that. You are in all likelihood a MUCH more ethical person than that fictional character. I mean, you are on DU after all. That shows a certain amount of maturity.

[quinnox]

10. Ok, it just seemed like your OP was another villification of "guy stuff"

maybe I misunderstood your point.

[Taverner]

12. Guy stuff is guy stuff. Patriarchy is a strange holdover from Roman days of yore

Patriarchy suggests men never show emotion, always see ourselves as the decision maker, and "head of the household."

You and I know how much that sucks

Guy stuff is getting to hang around the guys from "Top Gear" for about a week

[fitman]

36. I like those type of movies but also equally get into romantic comedies and

chick flicks.

[quinnox]

39. huh. different strokes..

I don't like "women" movies, such as those types you listed.

[fitman]

41. I can pretty much watch anything

sci fi, war films, westerns, romantic comedies, men flicks (hangover etc)

If it's a good movie I will watch it.

[Niceguy1]

53. those movies

Are fun to watch. My gf likes to watch them, too.

[leftstreet]

15. How about a labor movement?

[Taverner]

24. That goes without saying

Even though we fielded the best labor team in the world at the turn of the century (Emma Goldman, Eugene Debs and Bill Haywood) Palmer killed it, and it never really returned to the power that it had then.

[tavalon]

60. Taverner, please tell me you are married, in a relationship or gay

I've spent much of the last year reveling in my singleness. You are the first guy I've been genuinely attracted to. Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't put you through dealing with me. I'm less than a year out of a really good 12 year relationship that went bad really, really quick. I have walls like Three Mile Island with no discernible breach.

I just find it interesting that I felt that little twinge of interest. Hasn't happened once since the break up.

[Deep13]

105. Some say there is power in a union.

[Doctor_J]

16. Sing it, brother

best thing I ever did was marry a feminist. Co-bread-winner, co-parent, co-housekeeper, co-taxi driver...also happens to be hot. Being scorned into the power career path would have driven me to an early grave. Having the freedom to hold an underpaying career because it's fun and satisfying and provides me time for the kids, and because I don't have to be the sole provider...that's liberation there.

[Taverner]

25. I know - it makes you think what if these women DID NOT have those obstacles

Would we have cured cancer by now?

Created a calorie free beer?

Flying cars?

[fitman]

38. A++++++++

My wife makes twice what I do..I earned more than her 10 years ago but I'm in a changing business (read dying).. I do most of the cooking and nearly all the house cleaning..we are both happy with the arrangement.

Though I do own the bulk of retirement investments and owned the house before we were married but her savings account is catching up to mine.

Been together 22 years now, married for 20.

[csziggy]

17. How about a Human Movement where everyone is treated with respect?

No men over women, women over men, one race over another. Just humans treating each other nicely.

[Taverner]

19. That is the end game for feminism

As well as a real men's movement

But I think our sisters are a bit ahead of us in shaking off patriarchy

[csziggy]

34. I guess I am lucky with the men in my life

The two most important, my Dad and my husband, supported me in the choices I made in life and never tried to impose their ideas on me. Well, my Dad did insist that I - and all my sisters - go to college. That was non-negotiable - his mother and aunt were college graduates, and by damn, his daughters would be, too. He'd wanted our mother to graduate college on the GI Bill after the war but she got pregnant immediately after they married and by the time she was free of children, she had many other things going on in her life.

[tavalon]

62. What you both said

I wish this message would spread like wildfire. Patriarchy is death by a thousand cuts, for men, women and children.

[AverageJoe90]

208. Feminism also seeks an end to racism as well, structural or otherwise.

And there are many people, from all sorts of ethnicities, and many nations, working towards this most noble of goals. May it become reality.

[lumberjack_jeff]

211. People conscious of injustice will work to get rid of it whereever it may be found

But I wouldn't expect feminism to carry water for the disability movement or the racial equality movement. The movement has a well defined purpose; advocacy for women. Race or ability are only relevant to feminism to the extent that they affect women.

Individual feminists may very well have a variety of agendas.

[Ohio Joe]

18. We have a mens Group right here on DU that does that...

And by 'that', I mean this part:

"Not this angry divorcee bullshit, nor women bashing, nor any of these other so called "men's movements..."

They were not even able to get past their 'FAQ' without having a post hidden... It's a shame such a Group is allowed on DU.

[Taverner]

20. Wasted Opportunities.

[trumad]

27. Awww the Little Boys club.

Do they still have the poll going for hottest celeb?

On edit: LOL---I just checked and they're on 3.0.

Weird little group.

[Ohio Joe]

30. Well... They have three of them...

I'm not sure if they just really need that many or if they are having that much trouble getting it right

[trumad]

31. Seriously--- that one thread x 3 is all you need to know about that group.

Proud to say they banned me right off.

[Taverner]

33. Susan Faludi wrote a great book a while back - "Stiffed"

Anyone wondering why men need a movement should read that book.

Also anyone wondering why patriarchy is not good for men either, should read that book

[Warren DeMontague]

72. Erk hyurk jhruyk

Ever tried to load a 600 post thread?

Probably doesn't happen all that much in the videogame group, huh.

[Ohio Joe]

99. Why no, there are not any 600 post threads in the Gaming Group...

Of course... There are no sex threads in the Gaming Group though I imagine if there were it would probably get a comparable number of posts, sex threads always get a lot of attention.

How should we compare the Groups next? Hidden threads? Self deleted threads? Banned members? Number of other Groups on DU we go out of our way to antagonize?

[Warren DeMontague]

101. Sure, lets.

Since you obviously have an axe to grind against one particular group, for some reason, and you keep bringing it up.

[Ohio Joe]

111. heh... Thats funny

A member of the mens Group accusing anyone of having an axe to grind

It is really more... hmmm, what is the word I'm looking for.... It is the same feeling I have when I see the poor Christians complaining about how persecuted they are by secularists... Or when the trod upon white supremacists cry about reverse racism... THAT is how I feel about the mens Group.

[Warren DeMontague]

114. Except, that's not even close to an accurate portrayal of what goes on in that group.

And if it was, people wouldn't need to scrounge around whining about the "hot celebrity thread", would they.

[Ohio Joe]

115. It is exactly what the Group is about

Mostly bashing of feminists... Natch... Which just helps to prove what I said... But lets go to the FAQ:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1114238

We have crying about how the poor men get the short end of the stick in a number of topics that are all such complete non-sense as to be laughable. It is true that there is an occasional post that does not fall into feminist bashing, persecution or sex thread but they are few and far between, and have little actual discussion. I have no doubt you find these to be real 'issues of interest to men'... I find them as the exact same as the issues that bother the poor christians and white supremacists.

[Warren DeMontague]

117. Why? Why go to the FAQ? It's not an area of MY particular interest.

Only post I think I made in there, I made well over a year ago, and it was to challenge some of the stats.

You brought up the Hot Celebrity thread first, obviously that's more of a pressing crisis.

In fact, I can pretty much guarantee with mathematical certainty that as soon as someone posts a thread in GD with the word "men" in the OP, someone will show up before long all out of breath, "they've got a hot celebrity thread in the mens group and it's an OUTRAGEEEEE"




...beyond that, trash the damn group if it bugs you so much. Or don't, whatever.

[Ohio Joe]

119. Why not go to the FAQ... Is it not the group FAQ? Does such a thing not help define a group?

Last edited Tue Oct 22, 2013, 08:03 AM - Edit history (1)

But it should be ignored... heh. AND WOW... One whole post that falls out of the three main topics is what ya got... Too Funny.

And it was not outrage at the sex threads, it was simply laughing at the group... And it appears to be you that keeps going back to the sex threads while denying the rest... Nay, claiming the rest does not exist... I find the disconnect fascinating and I think I'll continue pointing it out whenever I feel like it.

Edit - I think it should also be added here... I did not bring up the sex threads, I brought up the FAQ. I responded with amusement when asked about the sex threads.

[Warren DeMontague]

156. most popular thread on DU!

So you can thank me and hate me at the same time. Enjoy.

[lumberjack_jeff]

163. "Cognitive dissonance": it's what's for dinner. n/t

[Ohio Joe]

168. Yeah... A shame the rest of the group is such a cesspool

Endlessly fascinating how you only want to focus on that one thread though (while at the same time accusing me of doing that) and ignore/deny the fact that the group exists to whine about how men are so oppressed in a male dominated world.

And really... It is far closer to pity then hate.

[Warren DeMontague]

170. the group's stated purpose is "discuss issues of interest to men". That's the SOP.

Beyond that, okay, I get it. You don't like the group.

"The mens group is full of poopy-headed doodybrains" "is NOT!" "is too!"

I don't see the entertainment value in continuing that conversation.

[Ohio Joe]

182. And yet it's only interest is how oppressed men are in a male dominated world...

But not a one of you see that or wish to address it... Instead you go off on strawmen like how I'm the one talking about the sex threads or how I'm just calling names... So fascinating.

[Warren DeMontague]

200. Zzzzzzz.

Five minutes ago the only thing we had to talk about was hot celebrities.

Personally, I've never suggested "men are oppressed", that would be a ridiculous assertion.

I do like the hot celebrities, though. Sue me.

[lumberjack_jeff]

169. Thanks for reminding me, it's probably time for a 2013 version.

It's good to give people with low frustration tolerance something to talk about... elsewhere, of course... when they can't dispute any of the facts.

Don't lurk in the shadows, come on in! I can coach you on topics that are of interest to men if you need help with a conversation starter.

[Ohio Joe]

184. Well thanks Jeff but I can't think how you could teach me anything about being a man...

Kind of like how I can't see any need for a christian teaching me anything about how oppressed they are by secularists or a white supremacist teaching me anything about reverse racism... I simply have no need to learn anything about how men are oppressed in a male dominated world.

[lumberjack_jeff]

198. Maybe you're right.

Some jobs are too much even for me.

[BainsBane]

132. Actually it is

The parallel is perfect.

[BainsBane]

76. They have nothing else to talk about

They posted a thread looking for examples of misandry on DU and it took them a month to come up with a single example.

[opiate69]

82. Well.. not everybody has the kind of time it takes to rack up 18k + posts in 12 short months time..

some of us actually have things to do besides monitor DU 24/7

[BainsBane]

88. It takes no more time to write something of substance

than fluff.

[opiate69]

89. As if you would know…

[BainsBane]

92. I realize we all can't live up to the exalted intellectual standards

of posting girly pics, but I shall soldier on nonetheless.

[Katashi_itto]

139. Your very good at fluff, be proud of it.

Your always in top form creating fluff.

If I need to read something pointless, I always look for your posts. That takes talent.

[BainsBane]

144. Like flies to honey

[Katashi_itto]

152. Exactly! Not something to disparage at all. Look at Fox news

they do it 24/7. Your at least better too.

[BainsBane]

177. The flies remark was about

the swarm in this thread. Considering the majority of my posts are about gun violence and gun policy, your categorization of them as fluff says more about yourself than anything.

[Warren DeMontague]

205. "A tale, full of sound and fury... etc. signifying nothing"

that fairly well sums up this thread.

[Warren DeMontague]

86. "It's way farther than I would go, but I understand the anger behind 'kill all ******'"

Fill in that sentence with any group of humans besides 'men' and see how long you think it would be allowed to remain up on DU.

Just as a thought experiment. See if it works. Let me know what you come up with.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=27837


that was today, right?

[BainsBane]

87. I'm very happy that you found something

to fulfill the group's mission of feeling persecuted.

[opiate69]

91. ...

[Warren DeMontague]

93. Can't come up with any, can you? Not that will work.

And no, I only bring it up because you did. I don't bother with the "misandy" thread (which the OP never bothered to correct) for precisely that reason. I know it's tolerated, people don't think about it, and at this point I don't fucking care.

And like I've said before, I find the whole "DU gender war" crap played out, boring, and trite. Hell, even the brief vegan/meat eating brou-ha-ha of the other day felt fresh in comparison.

But since this thread rather predictably dovetailed into another excuse for a few people to grouse and complain about the mens group and even more surprising, a thread with -o noez!- attractive celebrities in it, rather than using the 'trash group' function, then I'm gonna respond by pointing out obvious inaccuracies and hypocrisy.

At least, briefly. But that's all you get, sorry.

Because I know how these things work.

[BainsBane]

97. Yet there you are in every thread

fighting the war.

You found one woman expressing hatred toward men. Women face real life men intent on killing and raping them based on their gender alone. Read some of the UN and WHO reports on violence against women. No one needs to hunt for an errant comment on a message board. We live with the reality of violence against us every day. Clearly the trauma of being raped, beaten and having our lives threatened in our own homes can't compare to the ordeal you faced upon reading that remark on DU.

[Warren DeMontague]

98. And I agree with you that it's horrible, reprehensible and inexcusable.

(Not to mention often driven by religious fundamentalism and cultural factors which some here often argue we should try to be 'sensitive' towards, but I digress)

but the Hot Celebrity thread with it's 90K views isn't responsible for it in any way, shape or form.

I'm not "fighting the war", I'm responding to a fairly obvious call-out.

Also, I'm going to assume you can't come up with a different group of people that it would be okay, on DU, to say I understand the anger behind 'kill all *****'

[BainsBane]

128. I didn't say it was

You asked about a parallel to the post by the member who has issues with men, so I told you.

[Warren DeMontague]

134. No, actually, I asked you to do a thought experiment on that particular sentence to see if it could

be made to work in such a way you could envision it being okay to post on DU.

I don't think it can be done.

[BainsBane]

135. I agree

which is why there is an alert system. The remark in the men's group that 95% of women were "disgusting" likewise didn't belong, or so I thought. A jury disagreed.

[Warren DeMontague]

138. That was an egregrious comment, I agree too.

As well as a pretty dumb one. I think the person who made it has since been banned, but I could be mistaken.

[BainsBane]

140. Yes, thankfully

and a retread was just now banned. Of course I can't know who exactly it was, other than they favored the same group.

[Warren DeMontague]

142. Sigh.

okay, well, then I guess that proves... absolutely nothing.

I could run down the list of an awful lot of unpleasant zombies who have said nasty, bigoted shit and who have favored other groups, which would likewise prove...


absolutely nothing.

Are we done, here, yet?

[BainsBane]

147. It wasn't meant to prove anything

It was a simple observation. Sigh indeed.

[BainsBane]

137. There are a number of things I don't think belong

such as the frequent references to women as bitches, sluts, and whores, yet juries only occasionally hide them.

[Warren DeMontague]

141. I didn't alert on that post, either. Nor do I plan to.

I only pointed it out, again, in reference to what you said upthread.

[BainsBane]

146. because if it were hidden

You might not be able to point to it for the next ten years.

[Warren DeMontague]

155. Yes, that's precisely what I want to do for the next 10 years.

namely waste my time back and forth in pointless inane DU gender war threads. Hell, why not just do it in this one? Maybe I'll set up a tent.

[BainsBane]

160. I just realized

(mea culpa ) that's not the one I thought you were referring to. I thought you were referring to the first example in the men's group misandry thread, and that example IMO was far worse.

I couldn't really figure out the point of that thread you did link to, but then I spent only a couple of seconds looking at it. You're referring to the comment about "average man"? I'm actually of the age that I read that as not being about men exclusively (like Joe lunchbox). But I'm not the one to be defending it, since I haven't spent much time looking at it, nor do I want to.

[lumberjack_jeff]

161. Unfortunately all the good campsites are taken. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

150. It wasn't "errant". It wasn't hidden because it conforms to community standards. n/t

[mathematic]

43. Maybe you can nominate Halle Berry

Don't you find it hypocritical that you're slamming them for talking about attractive celebrities when you've posted a very large picture of Halle Berry in a bikini IN THIS VERY THREAD?

[trumad]

51. nope

[Warren DeMontague]

75. Nah, the pretend horror & faux-rage around the "Hot celebrities thread" is, I think, its own reward.

I don't even think the people doing it believe half the things they say; they just enjoy the process of hyperbolically over-the-top griping about it, and since they can't find anything in that group that actually conforms to the rhetorical poo they like to fling at it, that thread needs to suffice as a useful proxy for all the "rumble grumble mens group" yargle bargle.

It's what passes for entertainment among those still suffering from meta withdrawl.

[BainsBane]

77. You live for the complaints about that thread

It makes you all feel subversive, or something.

[Warren DeMontague]

80. You got me.

Damn, Blast, and Thunder!

The dirty rats have figured us out! What'll we do now, chief?

[Violet_Crumble]

110. I don't really understand all the complaints from a few people...

If you don't like the thread, hide it. If you don't like the group, trash it. Then there's no need to complain and you won't risk having anyone feel all subversive...

I thought that thread was harmless. It wasn't all girlie pics either. I posted a Lou Barlow video coz Lou was really hot back in the 90's. I think I value-added in a big way to that thread....

#t=35

[BainsBane]

130. Did I complain about the thread?

As usual, you interject in an argument with absolutely no interest in the context of the discussion.

[BainsBane]

131. Well, more evidence my first post was accurate

[BainsBane]

162. Warren, you will always outclass me in humor

I lack your talent.

[lumberjack_jeff]

154. In that regard, it serves a great public purpose. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

104. That's different.

And there's a very detailed 35 page study which explains in very large words exactly why it's different available online as a pdf from the user-reviewed journal of internationally acclaimed sociology baristas however it costs $49 to download and unfortunately I can't get past the paywall and my cat benji ate my only paper copy

[Warren DeMontague]

71. Most popular thread on DU.

But maybe that's just because everyone needs to stop by and check out what is so awful and hateful about it.

[BainsBane]

78. Not even close

Any number of threads in GD get more activity in two days than that has taken months to rack up, and it's all the same people posting over and over again. You all are legends in your own minds.

[Gravitycollapse]

83. This is one of the most deluded posts I've seen from you. And that is saying a lot.

[Warren DeMontague]

84. Awwww.

How sweet.

[BainsBane]

90. in regard to that particular thread

He's right. A few people diligently nursing a thread over several months does not qualify as "the most popular thread on DU."

[Warren DeMontague]

94. I'm going by total views.

It's the number all the way to the right.

Edited to add: The original thread has, I think, 89793. Maybe there's a thread with more total views. If so, let me know what it is.

[opiate69]

122. Well, in fairness... I think the iverglas grave-dancing thread was more popular...

[trumad]

164. A train wreck has a lot of views.

[Warren DeMontague]

171. Especially when it's got Adriana Lima in it, amirite?

Yeah, I'm right.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

136. Post #11 dude....

No go pay your penance to the appropriate people.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

190. I don't have to!!!

Last edited Tue Oct 22, 2013, 01:17 PM - Edit history (1)

You posted a hot gurly pic right here, dudebro!!! High Five!!! You are the FUCKING MAAAAAN!!!!

[pintobean]

193. Umm...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=105176

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

194. Huh....really....

Guess hell is about to freeze over.

By the way, lest anyone wonder, I did not alert.

[pintobean]

195. It's the new rule

5 hidden posts gets one a mandatory time out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1013&pid=2863

[Warren DeMontague]

201. is he the first?

let us know how the system works, man!

[pintobean]

202. Don't know.

Last edited Tue Oct 22, 2013, 04:45 PM - Edit history (1)

My money would have been on him, though.

[lumberjack_jeff]

203. The wording of the announcement suggests...

... that someone already knows he's getting a lump of coal for Christmas.

[cui bono]

28. I'm for that! And as a woman I'll come along for the ride.

I can't understand why still, in this day and age, so many women don't offer to pay when they go out with a man. Why not? We work. Why should a man have to budget in a relationship? Doesn't make sense and it's anti-feminist.

And if I'm out on a date shooting pool, I'm not going to lose on purpose assuming the man is so weak their ego can't take it. I know they're strong enough to handle it. If they're real men they'll get turned on by it! I beat a date in go kart racing once and he loved it. That's a real man.

I would love a househusband! I like to work. I'm better at working than running a household.

And no mancaves necessary at my house. I have a sweet home theater system and I love to play with my electronic toys. I can build a pc, root and flash custom ROMs on my phone... those things are fun for me.

So I'm all for a Real Man movement. Cuz it takes a real man to deal with a real woman!

[Taverner]

32. I always hated the term "man cave"

It suggests that only men are allowed

I prefer the nicer sounding "stoner den" because in my den - yes, you may get stoned

[cui bono]

35. Yeah, me too. There was a thread that was about a "man cave" store and I asked why don't

women get caves. And then it was pointed out that the store offered things for "woman caves" that included earrings and I'm thinking wtf? I don't sit around at home admiring earrings for relaxation!

So I'm coming over to your den! I'll bring snacks.

[Taverner]

44. Cool! Let's say we watch Pink Floyd at Pompei, a PERFECT Stoner Den movie!

[cui bono]

45. Yeah! I also have, somewhere, The Wall album synched to The Wizard of Oz

which I haven't watched yet.

[tavalon]

63. Well, darn, now I have competition

Good thing I'm poly.

[cui bono]

64. LOL.

didn't mean to step in your turf!

[tavalon]

65. Not my turf actually

I commented that this man's POV gave me an attack of attraction. But my recent, traumatic separation makes having any relationship in the near future dangerous and unfair to me and the other unfortunate.

Party on.

[cui bono]

66. Alrighty then....

hear that Taverner? We're on!

[fitman]

50. Women and men should have their own private space

I have a man cave were my guy friends and I hang out, build cars, some girlie posters type stuff hanging on the walls, talk about women...drink a few beers, watch movies ...guy stuff in general..

My wife calls it ------ cave (my first name)..of course she has the same woman cave out in her horse barn-tack room with living quarters..where all her female horse friends hang out all the time....I rarely go on there..it's her private place where she goes and reads etc..it's decorated to her taste.


The sexes need their separate space..to let their hair down and just be together with the same gender.

[Triana]

37. "Men should hate patriarchy as much as women do."

True they should. Because in so many ways, patriarchy is unfair to men, too. You mentioned just a few reasons.

[Taverner]

42. Yep. Similar to how white privlege hurts whites.

[Gravitycollapse]

70. Are you serious?

[Deep13]

108. divide and conquer

The only ones who benefit from ethnic hatred is the ruling class. Segregation, legal or de facto, turns whites into monsters, whether they know it or not. Granted the unprivileged groups are hurt far more directly, but I happen to think that normalizing an obviously immoral system causes its own damage.

[bettyellen]

217. very true, peace activists in Northern Ireland explained this to me 20 years ago....

they have the people in poverty fighting each other instead of the powers that be that cheat them.

[G_j]

40. agreed

IMHO, Patriarchy is destroying the planet.

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. "When we have a real movement we'll know it because women will help us throw off our chains"

It's patently obvious that if the women's movement had waited for the reverse, nothing would have happened.

If we stumble upon a men's movement dedicated to leaving the toilet seat down, but leaving the male only draft in place, all will be right with the world. Bumbling idiots that we are, I'm sure we'll eventually get there.

It's not up to women to define, pursue, and legitimize a men's movement. It's up to you.

[Taverner]

47. No, but what I am saying is that both men's and women's movements have the same goal

Egalitarianism

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. no.

Egalitarianism is about the search for egalitarianism. Show me a position paper from the National Organization for Women which indicates that the 11:1 ratio of men to women dying on the job is an issue that needs to be rectified.

If you can't then NOW is not about equality.

The women's movement is about promoting the interests of women and the men's movement is about promoting the interests of men. It's advocacy, and there's nothing wrong with it.

It is stupid to wait for women to rescue you from unsafe jobs, premature death, inadequate education, suicide and mental illness. It's the flipside of the cinderella myth.

Figure out what you want and go get it.

Gloria Steinem didn't ask your permission to demand what's important for women nor should she have.

You aren't describing a "real men's movement", you're describing a women's movement auxiliary.

[Gravitycollapse]

67. The reason why women don't have to ask men as opposed to men asking women...

Is the reality that one is the oppressor and the other the oppressed. It is the normal function of life that the oppressed, women, perpetually ask permission of the oppressor, men.

In the world of liberation, those roles are reversed. It is an act of defiance.

But you already know that. Or, at least, you know the facts. I can't be so sure you understand them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

158. Here's the kernel of agreement; the women's movement needed to happen first.

In this society - today - men as a group are not oppressors.

[Gravitycollapse]

192. Absurd, ridiculous, delusional, self-serving garbage.

[lumberjack_jeff]

145. Commercial driving is less dangerous per hour worked than many other professions.

It is about 1/5th as dangerous as logging.

How would I address it? For starters, I'd do something about the 3:2 college imbalance so that men had living wage options other than the dangerous jobs.

Fishing is now the #2 most dangerous job (after logging) because they've made some really obvious and common sense changes to the quota rules for gulf of Alaska crabbing. Similar rule changes have helped trucking (hours of work).

And workplace deaths don't capture the whole issue. Coal mining isn't one of the most dangerous jobs (from a dying-on-the-job perspective) yet I have read that the life expectancy of an Appalachian coal miner is about 57 years.

Absent government intervention, the only way to improve working conditions is to constrain the supply of people willing to take the job. If coal mining companies couldn't find inexpensive replacement workers they'd do something to protect the ones they have.

[lumberjack_jeff]

196. Not dismissing it.

I'm just saying that there are a lot of on the job traffic fatalities because there are a lot of professional drivers. On the spectrum of male dominated jobs it's about middle of the pack in terms of danger.

[lumberjack_jeff]

219. I don't understand what's so difficult.

If a logger decides to become a truck driver, his risk of dying on the job drops by 80%.

The fact that there are a great many more truck drivers than loggers is immaterial to his personal risk.

[Eleanors38]

153. ^^^ This.

[Deep13]

109. With respect, it is up to everyone to deconstruct ...

...artificial distinctions like gender, race, nationality, and religion.

[lumberjack_jeff]

159. So long as anyone likes self-identifying as "woman" or "hispanic" or "muslim"

Then the distinctions aren't artificial.

[Deep13]

179. They are entirely artificial.

"Woman," strictly speaking, refers to both sex and gender. Sex is ones physical attributes. Gender is socially accepted behavior and thought for a particular sex and is entirely culturally dependent. Likewise, race is entirely made up. People come in different colors and with other phenotypes, but the idea that there are qualitatively distinct and naturally occurring categories of humans is false. Hispanic is mostly a language group. Race is constructed around many different attributes, and in the USA black racial identity is constructed around color, while Hispanic racial identity is constructed around language. Religion is probably the most artificial of them all since in principal anyone can change his or her mind about god. All of these categories are internalized and naturalized, not only by the hegemonic cultural elites, but to those being labeled. In other words, the subjects of these constructs have to agree with those constructs on some level. We are indoctrinated implicitly since birth to do so.

[lumberjack_jeff]

197. I'm a guy.

So yes, I agree with that construct on some level.

[Iggo]

52. And as soon as "Men" as a class suffer widespread oppression, we can have one.

[TeamPooka]

54. Mister, please.... nt

[McDiggy]

55. we need an egalitarian movement...

...because it's clear that a couple of wacko right wingers have made women have a negative reaction to the term "men's rights". But there is no denying that many people are suffering due to penis ownership. There is a boys' crisis in education. The draft does exist. Less men graduate from college. Men get zero help when they are the victims of a violent spouse. And so on. Men do have legit gripes. It's just unfortunate that a few wackos have shouted down the legit voices with egregious nonsense in the broad mens' rights movement to the point where it's being discounted wholesale.

[YoungDemCA]

56. The problem is that a lot of the legitimate issues that many men face....

...are race and class issues, not gender issues.

Example: Black men being imprisoned at higher rates than white men. Or men who lack college degrees having, on average, considerably less pay, benefits, and job security than men with college degrees.

These aren't easy issues to entangle, by any means. But speaking as a man, I can't say that I've ever experienced genuine oppression-that is to say, disenfranchisement-solely because I am a man.

[Gravitycollapse]

68. Why would you as the privileged ever suffer because of your privileged position?

Of course you've never suffered under the world of being a man. The world is created by men for men.

[tavalon]

57. Absolutely

We all need to throw off the chains of patriarchy. It has been very devastating to men as well as women. One day, we can bring the two groups together and have a people's movement.

I wholly support this. And for the record. I am a woman.

[tavalon]

58. PS

Any sig line with Bill Hicks rocks.

[cui bono]

69. Very true.

"What you reading for?"
...
"Looks like we got ourselves a reader!"

[tavalon]

81. Ha!

That is my favorite of his. "I'm reading so I don't end up in a dead end job like this!"

[cui bono]

85. I first heard it right after a road trip during which we stopped at a Waffle House

because we kept seeing them everywhere. It was not a good decision. One of our breakfasts had a hair in it. So that bit really stuck in my mind.

I just watched a documentary on him last week on Netflix. I forget what it was called. It was interesting. Too bad he left us so early. Would have been interesting to hear his take on things going on today.

[tavalon]

95. Personally, I believe he was a christ

I subscribe to the belief that there are many christs, including the one called Jesus. And they usually die young. The current Dalai Lama is an aberration but I think his solid core of love and acceptance may have something to do with that. Even Jesus got exasperated. And anyway, I think Bill was trying so hard to enlighten us and it just killed him that we couldn't see what he could so clearly.

I'm not a Christian, so I don't really believe in heaven, but if I'm wrong, I am so totally looking this guy up. And he isn't the only one on my heaven itinerary!

My ex husband knew him peripherally. The ex's dad knew him well. He was a tortured soul, but a good one.

[redqueen]

191. Um... goat boy?

A christ... FFS

[tillikum]

61. tagged for future review

[Prophet 451]

100. I wouldn't disagree

I would suggest also that some issues which affect women also affect men. For example, male victims of rape and domestic violence are, in some ways, even more invisible than their female counterparts (which is not to say that it's a contest of who's more oppressed).

[eridani]

116. Those two things are like breast cancer--men are much less likely to suffer for them, but

--when they do, it's far more likely to be fatal. (Yes, guys--get one of those breast cancer shower cards, or have your wife lend you one of hers.)

[Prophet 451]

121. Not as rare as you'd think

While rape of women is about 1 in 6, rape of men is about 1 in 33 (and even less reported than female rape). Figures for male-victim domestic violence are hard to come by but some studies suggest it may even be equal to female-victim domestic violence.

[Deep13]

103. Well patriarchy sucks for sure, but I rather think...

...a feminist-friendly men's movement will further reinforce gendered norms.

Anyway, I think the movement that will address this and other issues is socialism.

[tillikum]

112. i think a real mens movement looks more like a period of total dis-engagement

say, three months. no contact whatsoever. then we come back and see what we learned.

now THAT would be quite a bit of fun to watch.

[Jamastiene]

123. You got this feminist's support.

There would be way more of us working together for that same goal and we would have a better chance of making things better for all genders.

[NuclearDem]

143. We already do, it's called feminism.

Men can be feminists too, and working as a feminist to throw off the shackles of the patriarchy benefits everyone

[FarCenter]

148. Almost Half Of Young Japanese Women Are Not Interested In Sex

A new report from The Guardian's Abigail Haworth quotes a shocking statistic from the Japan Family Planning Association (JFPA) that 45% of Japanese women aged 16-24 "were not interested in or despised sexual contact."

25% of Japanese men feel the same way, according to the JFPA.

The statistic comes from Haworth's recent article about how more and more young people in Japan have stopped having sex — bad news for Japan's population crisis, given the country's already low birth rate and the projection that its population of 126 million is expected to plunge 30% by 2060.

Even though casual sex is becoming more common in Japan, a 2011 survey found that 61% of unmarried men and 49% of women aged 18-34 were not in any kind of relationship — a rise of 10% from five years earlier, according to Haworth.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/young-japanese-arent-interested-in-sex-2013-10

Maybe the Japanese are pointing the way towards a post-sexual world.

[Sheldon Cooper]

149. How does having sex, or not, relate to the OP?

I don't think that a post-sexual world would resolve issues of the patriarchy. If you think it would, could you elaborate a bit? I'm curious. thanks.

[Taverner]

151. I know - although patriarchy may bleed into sex

Sex itself is neutral - just a matter of mutual self-secreted chemical cocktails

[FarCenter]

165. Sex is the main driver of courtship, marriage, and childbearing.

Without sex, patriarchy becomes obsolete. Relationships between men and women are more related to friendship, business, and casual social activities, and they are not charged with the same emotional baggage.

[Sheldon Cooper]

172. That would be true, technically, but only if every single person

from now until the end of our species agrees to forego sex. Once every human being has then died, sure, patriarchy would no longer exist. But come on - how likely is that? Your point is not a serious one.

[FarCenter]

175. No, individuals can opt out of the patriarchy trap -- don't get married for one thing.

Get a vasectomy for another.

[Sheldon Cooper]

178. So, not serious.

As I expected.

[fitman]

185. Have been single, had a live in GF but love being married the most.

My wife and I are equals..trust me there is no patriarchy in our relationship.

[elehhhhna]

181. might his have to do with he boys being raised like little kings?

it's a cultural phenomena that isn't being mentioned in the articles. How might that impact dating relationships?

[FarCenter]

183. They are probably raised mostly by their mothers, since fathers have long commutes, long hours.

[elehhhhna]

187. all that capitalsim and sexism is costing them

btw, my comment above was sexist and a broad generalization. Sorry if I offended anybody.

[fitman]

186. I have seen girls raised up like little princesses

as much as little boys raised as little kings.

That goes both ways..

[Throd]

189. An agenda pushed by the Princess Industrial Complex

I have two young daughters.

[mconnors]

176. I belong to one!

Taverner

There is a great group for men, to become better men! It is called the Man Kind Project!
www.mkp.org

This group is amazing and it is all over the world. Helping one man at a time!

This is from the web site:

The ManKind Project flies in the face of rigid stereotypes about the "Sensitive New Age Man" AND the "Macho Man". We ask men to go right up to the edge - and beyond - in a culture that seems to be comfortable with mediocrity and passivity from men. We ask men to stop living a vicarious adventure through their TV's and step into a real time adventure to win back their passion for life. We ask men to confront the real issues, to get 100% honest about who they are. Some men have a really hard time doing that. Many of us did too, but we took the risk anyway.

Leaders wanted. Men willing to step through fear and into the challenge of their lives. Men not afraid to revolt against repressive social norms, take off their masks and break through their personal barriers. Men ready to take real risks and step into their full power. Men not afraid to inhabit ALL the characteristics required of men in changing times; resiliency, integrity, courage, creativity, innovation, adaptability, compassion, empathy, radical self-responsibility, inclusiveness, generosity and respect.

[gopiscrap]

213. welcome to DU

[RedCappedBandit]

199. Wouldn't that just be feminism?

I'm a man. I am a feminist, because I disagree with patriarchy.

[AverageJoe90]

209. See reply number #208 for an additional take. =)