Another Greek couple arrested for abducting a baby

[pnwmom]

that they claim was given to them by an unknown woman.

I hope they find out who this baby belongs to -- the "parents" aren't claiming it is biologically theirs.

Their story sounds sketchy, to say the least.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/2013/10/23/greek-police-arrest-roma-over-abducted-baby/OLeqphVkKHtXKwLuaryiBL/story.html

Kordonouris told the AP they claimed an unknown Roma woman gave them the baby in Athens.

‘‘They told us they didn’t give her any money, and that they met by accident. She told her that she had five children; they said that they are unable to have their own and asked if she could give her one,’’ Kordonouris said.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/greek-police-arrest-roma-abducted-baby-20658694


Police say the suspects allegedly tried to register the two-and-a-half month old boy as their own, but raised suspicions because they lacked sufficient documentation.

Regional police chief Panagiotis Kordonouris says the 19-year-old woman, her 21-year-old companion and his 51-year-old mother were arrested Wednesday at a Roma settlement outside the island capital of Mytilini.

Kordonouris told the AP they told police an unknown Roma woman gave them the baby in Athens.

[Egnever]

1. This is starting to smell like racism

considering this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24645947

[pnwmom]

3. Do you think the "parents'" story sounds believable?

I just added it to the OP.

[Egnever]

4. Nope

but that doesnt discount the fact that they seem to be targeting these people regardless. Considering two of the three "abductions" so far have turned out to be no such thing. I will reserve judgement on this one.

Sounds more like intimidation than legitimate concern for the children. Maybe this one will turn out to be an abduction but the track record so far isnt great.

[pnwmom]

6. I saw that the 2 year old boy was returned. Which of the other

investigated abductions turned out to be wrong?

Now I see -- I just noticed the title on that article. Strange that the title doesn't seem to fit the rest of the article. Maybe they hadn't been able to confirm it yet. I hope they have now.

[Egnever]

7. The girl from yesterdays post

was found to have matching DNA according t the story I linked above.

[pnwmom]

8. Yeah, I missed the title -- which I hope is true.

It's not stated definitively yet -- as if they didn't have a reliable source.

OTOH, this new case apparently won't depend on DNA tests, since the "parents" aren't saying they are the biological parents.

[Egnever]

9. Me as well

I certainly dont want to see children abducted nor am I trying to say it doesnt happen with this clan. But if the story I linked is correct there seems to be something else going on here.

[pnwmom]

10. It's definite about the Irish cases. Here's more.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/dna-shows-roma-girl-taken-2485035

DNA tests have confirmed that a little blonde girl taken from a Roma family in Ireland IS their daughter.

The child, who was taken from her home in Tallaght, south Dublin on Monday, was reunited with her mother this afternoon.

Her delighted sister, 21, revealed tonight: "Thank goodness she's coming home.

"We're throwing a big party for her.


SNIP

[moriah]

12. I notice they haven't said anything about the coloring of this boy.

Please, yes, make sure people have their documents in order when registering children that were not born in a hospital. If the Greek government will start requiring DNA testing to establish maternity in non-witnessed births, it needs to be done uniformly and not target only Roma. When children are being abused, take them into custody.

But don't rip kids away from their parents when there's no accusation or evidence of abuse or neglect, simply suspicion based on race and looks. This kind of thing is not going to help encourage the Roma to trust authority.

[pnwmom]

17. I agree that whatever methods they use, they should apply uniformly.

In this second Greek case, however, DNA doesn't appear to be an issue. The parents are reported to have said that an unknown woman gave them the baby because she had five children and they asked for one.



Anyone who gives a story like that, no matter what their ethnic or cultural background, should be investigated.

[REP]

31. Is the family in Ireland Roma or Travelers?

Travelers are not necessarily Roma, though they may claim to be. Many if not most Travelers are of another genetic heritage.

[loli phabay]

36. i believe they are rom, or at least one parent is.

There is a lot of cross marraige between the two communities over the years, no matter what rom community you look at there is lots of ethnic diversity due to marraiges between different nations and families.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

13. uh. no. not racism. Roma people may have been persecuted....but these people

clearly have children that do not belong to them, and we may be uncovering the edges of a massive child slave trade racket.

[moriah]

15. In Greece, maybe. I'd say most of the rest of the world needs to take a deep breath.

And I don't see any notations that this child was detected by looks, but instead by consistent legal requirements. Which is what is needed -- consistent, fair dealings with the Roma community. Not witch hunts and people reporting all their Roma neighbors who have blonde kids.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

16. that part I agree with.

[Egnever]

18. According to the link in my post not so much

did you even look at it? Two of the three "abductions" have turned out to be no such thing. So "clearly have children that dont belong to them" is not true.

So i am left asking how in the world are we uncovering a massive child slave trade when two of the three so far have been proven to be children of the people they were taken from?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

19. two were in Ireland, a country that had people overreacting to news from Greece

there is a second set of "parents" also in custody in Greece over child that does not belong to them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/10400467/Maria-mystery-Second-Roma-couple-arrested-in-Greece-over-child-abduction.html

[Egnever]

23. My mistake

I was confusing the two incidents.

[pnwmom]

22. It's two of four -- the two in Ireland have been identified.

But there are still two in Greece whose DNA do not match the people raising them. The parents of the older girl have given several different stories about how they acquired her, and the parents of the baby say that an unknown mother of five gave them one of hers upon their request.

I agree with Moriah that Greece has to strengthen and make uniform their birth registration process.

[Egnever]

24. Yup I was confusing the cases

Still seems like people are pretty quick to jump to conclusions on this. I am not a big fan of ripping kids from their families based on suspicions.

I will continue to try to learn more before making a judgement on this.

[pnwmom]

26. The problem with leaving the children with the Greek families

is that they weren't claiming to be biologically related, their stories lacked credibility, and the families could have easily disappeared (with the children) while this was being investigated.

The children in Ireland, however, were living in stable homes with parents who were confidently claiming to be the biological parents. They knew that DNA would prove them right so there would be no reason for them to leave with the children.

[Egnever]

30. Well

I will have to wait for more details. If children are routinely passed around in the roma culture as other have suggested the fact that these are not biologically related really has little bearing on this case. Yes the idea of giving up a child just cause you have five is foreign to me but in a different culture perhaps not so much. I just dont know.

At this point I am going to have to say I dont have nearly enough Info to make an informed decision. Time will tell.

Again no matter what I hope in the end it is the childs welfare that maters and not cultural discrimination.

[pnwmom]

32. If these children were "routinely" passed around,

then why the conflicting stories in the case of the 5 year old? (And the latest news is that the parents have separate lawyers and the father is blaming the mother.)

And, with regard to both sets of parents, why can't either identify the woman who supposedly gave them the child?

But shouldn't all families in Greece be subject to the same laws? If you are want to argue, as I do, that they shouldn't be discriminated against, don't you also have to argue that they need to be subject to the same laws as everyone else?

[Egnever]

34. Looks like the child was passed around

at least the Maria

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2475971/Bulgarian-Sasha-Ruseva-believed-Marias-mother-wants-Greece.html

It'd not my culture and I don't think it is very effective for children but it is not for me to judge them. I think many rushed to judgement.

[dipsydoodle]

14. Smells like ?

It is racism.

[Egnever]

20. I am starting to believe that

I dont know enough about them to say for sure but the fact that two of the three that I am aware of were returned to the romas they were taken from leads me to believe that racism is whats going on here.

[pnwmom]

25. The 2 cases in Ireland are different than the 2 cases in Greece.

The parents' stories in Greece were suspicious from the start, and they didn't claim to be the biological parents.

In Ireland the parents insisted they were the biological parents. Suspicious neighbors reported them.

[Egnever]

28. Ok

So it's racism in Ireland but not in Greece...

If the children were abducted they should definitely be returned to their families of course. I am not interested in condemning a class of people though based on one or two incidents yet to be proven to be foul play.

These Roma seem to live an odd life and have little regard for typical family structure but that does not mean I think it is ok to start ripping children from them with little evidence other than they dont look like their children.

No matter what I hope in the end the childrens welfare is the top priority.

[pnwmom]

29. Have you seen anything indicating that the "parents" of the baby

didn't look like him or her? I thought the reason the police are investigating is because they're not claiming to be the biological parents and their story is so sketchy.

Wouldn't the police be remiss if they just let these people take the baby back with them? Should the child protection laws apply to all children equally?

[loli phabay]

27. pretty much is, people are looking for scapegoats to attack.

[get the red out]

2. Weird

Does Greece not have regular, legal ways of giving babies up for adoption?

[pnwmom]

5. Yes, Greece has formal adoption laws designed to protect children.

They appear to have a haphazard system of registering births, however.

http://www.adopting.org/adoptions/adoption-law-greece.html

[IdaBriggs]

11. I am not familiar with the Greek system for surrendering children but

I have recently been made aware of "orphanages" in the Ukraine where children are surrendered if they are born prematurely or have other handicaps, or have parents who lose their rights because of "issues" -- the stories are Not Good. If I understand it correctly, family is such a big deal that these "orphans" are marked as such for the rest of their lives on all official documentation.

We take food availability for granted, but not everyone in the world has the same experience, let alone access to birth control or education. The availability of girl children from China (which used to get a lot of publicity) was a big deal, and we were told (this was over a decade ago) that there was a lot of support for adopting these "abandoned" children because otherwise there lives would be as permanent field workers, with no hope of marriage or children or bettering themselves.

As I said, I don't know about Greece under the austerity situations, but someone recommended googling "greeks abandon children under austerity" and frankly, I can't bring myself to do it.

Most of us in the United States are very lucky; we don't even notice it. The plight of children all over the world is bluntly, terrifying.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

21. they originally claimed it was theirs then backed off that story and said they

were looking after the child for an Athns couple. kinda fishy.

[Quantess]

33. I'm more interested in making sure these children weren't abducted

than I am about possibly insulting a group of people. That's my opinion.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

35. yes. what's with the whole cultural exceptionalism on trafficking babies?

that's just a nonstarter. ESPECIALLY if it is being done for cash.