Glenn Greenwald drops NSA bombshell in Italy

[Shampoyeto]

The NSA spied on the Italian government and companies, for reasons beyond terrorism.

L'Espresso magazine broke the story thanks to its source, American journalist Glenn Greenwald. Here's a translated-to-english page of the report: http://espresso.repubblica.it/internazionale/2013/10/24/news/cosi-ci-spiano-stati-uniti-e-gran-bretagna-1.138890

Excerpt:

"Italy has not only been in the crosshairs of the system created by Prism 007 U.S.. With a program called parallel and convergent Tempora, also British intelligence had spied on optical fiber cables that carry phone calls, emails and Internet traffic of our country. Relevant information gathered by GCHQ, the Government Communications Head Quarter ie, they could swap with the American NSA. But from the files of Snowden shows that the skimming of these data follows unscrupulous criteria, which is not only the fight against terrorism."

Reuters and others have picked up the story: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/24/us-italy-usa-spying-idUSBRE99N0Q420131024?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

[Cali_Democrat]

1. Interesting how this coincides with Kerry's trip to Italy:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023909114

Is Greenwald interested in total information awareness? Or is he more interested in kneecapping the administration whenever he can?

He's such an obvious Paulite.

[randome]

2. AGAIN?! I was tempted to look that up but I didn't think Greenwald would be THAT transparent.

I was wrong.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Cali_Democrat]

4. Basically all this information about alleged spying on Europeans is occurring as Kerry is in Europe.

Glenn is just so obvious at this point. Yesterday people tried to claim I was making this up.

This Italy story only confirms what I already knew to be true.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

5. Oh, you knew we were spying on Italy for non-counterterrorism purposes? Very impressive. nt

[Cali_Democrat]

7. You missed our point. Completely.

Our point was that these releases are timed to drop while Kerry is traveling in Europe. He sits on this info and selectively releases it while Kerry meets with foreign leaders.

[cui bono]

77. So what if they are timed? Don't you think they get more notice this way?

What's wrong with that? Important stories should grab headlines.

Or are you still thinking this is some wild and kooky conspiracy between, GG, the Republican Party, the US media, Le Monde, der Spiegel and now L'Espresso?

[Marr]

101. The man is trying to get the information *noticed*.

I realize you don't share that sentiment, but citing media-savvy timing as evidence of some nefarious conspiracy is pretty silly.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

137. x2

[LuvNewcastle]

140. Greenwald said he'd make them pay for what they did to his husband.

I think he's keeping his word.

[sabrina 1]

152. Please supply a link to that quote from Greenwald 'I will make them

pay for what they did to my husband'.

Thank you!

[LuvNewcastle]

201. I think this is what I remember:

RIO DE JANEIRO (AP) -- The American journalist who has written stories based on documents leaked by former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden said Monday he'll start publishing material with more frequency and fervor after his partner was detained for nine hours at Heathrow Airport.

London police detained David Miranda, the partner of reporter Glenn Greenwald, under anti-terror legislation at the London airport on Sunday. Miranda finally arrived Monday in Rio de Janeiro, where he lives with Greenwald.

A defiant Greenwald promised that he was going "to write much more aggressively than before" about government snooping.
"I'm going to publish many more things about England, as well," he said in Portuguese at Rio's international airport when Miranda arrived. "I have many documents about England's espionage system, and now my focus will be there, too. I think they'll regret what they've done."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/greenwald-will-write-much-more-aggressively-following-partner-s-detention

Note: This says that his statement was about Britain, but I understood before that he was talking about the U.S., too. After all, they detained Miranda because the U.S. told them to. I'll keep looking. Understand, I'm not criticizing him for trying to get back at them. They deserve it.

[LuvNewcastle]

206. Here's a different quote:

"If the UK and U.S. governments believe that tactics like this are going to deter or intimidate us in any way from continuing to report aggressively on what these documents reveal, they are beyond deluded," said Greenwald.

"If anything, it will have only the opposite effect: to embolden us even further."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/19/world/europe/greenwald-partner-detained/

Note: I think it's pretty clear Greenwald is choosing the most advantageous time to release his stories. Of course, if the story doesn't cause some conflict, it wouldn't even be reported by the MSM, so you can't blame him for doing that. I would imagine that it's common for investigative reporters to choose the best time to release their stories. That's just how it's done.

[sabrina 1]

237. Yes, I do remember those statements after they harassed his husband.

His point was, that if they are doing this to try to intimidate them and to stop them, not just him because the UK has been harassing the Guardian about this also, it isn't going to work.

Greenwald has been targeted before. By a 'Security Contractor', HB Gary proposing a smear campaign against him for writing about the Big Banks, in that case BOA. The proposal was uncovered when Anonymous hacked into HB Gary's emails after they threatened to expose Anonymous.

So he's been threatened FOR reporting the news before.

No one in this country should approve of the harassment of journalists, not even the ones we don't like.

Thanks for the links. That is not what motivated him to report on these issues though, he's been doing it since he first started blogging in 2005.

[randome]

9. No, I don't CARE that we spy on Italy.

The NSA also stopped a terrorist attack in India, for which the Indian government expressed its gratitude.

The NSA is a lot more complicated than Brietbart-screaming like 'STOP SPYING ON US!'

I'm amazed that people believe there are only 2 sides to the subject. And Greenwald? He just wants to keep hammering away at the U.S. in the vain hope, perhaps, that he will be seen as a 'hero'.

And maybe get his U.S. tax problems resolved at the same time.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Luminous Animal]

22. Link for that stopped terrorist attack, please.

[randome]

60. Here are a couple. Not the one I was thinking about, though.

http://www.mail.com/news/politics/2148548-nsa-head-spy-programs-thwarted-terror-attacks.html

The director of national intelligence has declassified some details on two thwarted attacks — Najibullah Zazi's foiled plot to bomb the New York subways and the case of David Coleman Headley, a Pakistani-American who used his U.S. passport to travel frequently to India, where he allegedly scouted out venues for terror attacks on behalf of the Lashkar-e-Taiba terrorist organization.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3625650

There is something more recent but I can't find it. And I can't find the reference to India expressing its gratitude.

My point remains, though: the NSA is a lot more complex than the kind of "you're either with us or against us" thinking.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[WinkyDink]

191. I've read of many alleged "foiled plots"; don't believe most. E.g. "He tried to kill my daddy."

[Luminous Animal]

245. Two of Headley's wives turned him in. Also, he was a U.S. intelligence asset

also.

[cali]

47. yes, yes. you know so much more than Senators like Wyden, Leahy and Udall

all of who have expressed disgust at NSA activities.


they much hate America and President Obama.

[randome]

66. We've been hearing 'tip of the iceberg' for a long time.

When does the iceberg sink or swim?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[cui bono]

79. When parts of the iceberg surface we get kooky responses about timing being suspicious.

How about talking about what is actually happening? And maybe give some reason why the timing is so nefarious and conspiratorial.

The interesting thing is why DUers want to dismiss this sort of activity. Well I know why, I mean these things weren't dismissed when Bush was in office.

[grahamhgreen]

114. Didn't they spy on Dr King and try to ruin his marriage?

[randome]

122. Probably. Not only was that a long time ago, but the NSA is now forbidden by law...

...from spying on Americans.

The agency may not be perfect, the laws may not be perfect, but the NSA does have a full range of responsibilities. It's not all adventurous spy games, you know.

They monitor human trafficking, organized crime, child pornography rings as well as terrorists.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

168. Well then the NSA has broken the law because starting with Bush

those laws were broken, then Congress changed the law to get Bush off the hook and as we have found out, people like me have had their Verizon accounts spied on. We are waiting for some accountability since people generally don't like being stalked by government agents when they have nothing to deserve it.

[WinkyDink]

192. That was the FBI.

[Shampoyeto]

215. NSA didn't spy on MLK, you say? nt

[WinkyDink]

242. Apparently it did, but the FBI was first:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/25/america-subversives-fbi-spying-nsa-surveillance

[NCTraveler]

136. I have some serious problems with the NSA.

That being said, I fully support "spying" on other countries. I don't see why there is a problem with it. I am not just talking about looking for information that is terrorism related. I am talking about terrorism, economics, militarily, politically, ect. I think it would be irresponsible for us not to.

[sabrina 1]

154. Breitbart SUPPORTED the Spying on the American people. It was Dems

who were opposed to these phony, terror programs, all Bush policies that outraged most people who don't believe in the Government spying on its own people.

Breitbart SUPPORTED Bush policies no matter how bad for the country they were.

[randome]

166. I meant it sounds like Breitbart when we scream 'STOP SPYING ON US!'

When the reality, so far as we know, is that the NSA does not spy on American citizens.

They are prohibited by law from doing so.

I know some are outraged by the NSA keeping copies of phone metadata but that hardly rises to the dreaded 'surveillance state' some want to portray this as.

The NSA is tasked with monitoring foreign communications and they are doing that job.

We can stop that if we want but why be outraged that a governmental organization is doing the job they are supposed to do?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[dionysus]

33. not that it's right, but every country that can afford an intelligence agency spies on everyone they

can, friend or foe alike. do you think MI6 or Mossad aren't spying on us?

[kelliekat44]

91. What I know (and I can't tell you why or how) is that ALL modern governments spy on each other.

Israel is know to spy on everyone and even did it on Bill Clinton. We accept that the UK, Russia, etc do the same thing...been doing it for years.

[WinkyDink]

193. Geez, even MAD has had "Spy vs. Spy vs. Spy" for 50 years.

[Shampoyeto]

8. Only it was Der Spiegel which broke the Merkel story

Not Greenwald. Not that you have explained why in the world Kerry's presence in Europe is relevant to all this.

Would there be no outrage in these countries if Kerry wasn't there?

Another question: Was Kerry in Brazil and Mexico when news of NSA spying on these countries broke?

[randome]

12. Der Spiegel obtained the documents from Greenwald, no doubt.

And obviously Kerry's whereabouts DO matter to Greenwald and Der Spiegel since the last several stories have 'coincidentally' been printed just as he arrives in a specific country.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Shampoyeto]

14. Busted! Der Spiegel has possessed the NSA documents for a long time, not just recently

"The accusations in Germany were prompted by reporting by the news magazine Der Spiegel, which has run many stories based on classified U.S. National Security Agency documents leaked by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/german-leader-calls-obama-about-alleged-cellphone-tapping/2013/10/23/2edb4aa2-3c10-11e3-b0e7-716179a2c2c7_story.html

Your paranoia is high. And guess which magazine broke the spying-on-Mexico story:

http://nation.time.com/2013/10/20/snowdens-father-says-son-has-more-secrets-to-reveal/

Was Kerry in Mexico?

[randome]

64. No, but it's been, what, three countries in a row now?

Too much of a coincidence. Greenwald has an agenda and that makes his journalistic credentials suspect, IMO.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[cui bono]

85. What is the agenda? And why - whatever it is - is it suspect?

The only agenda I saw was yesterday in a crackpot thread about how GG, the euorpean press, the US media and the Republican Party are all in on this "Timinggate", for which the end goal was to help the Republicans.

So have you got a better theory? Cuz that one is utter shit and anyone who buys that is a wackadoodle.

[randome]

124. It's Greenwalds agenda more than anything else, IMO.

He likes to be the center of attention. Maybe it distracts from his IRS problems.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/greenwald-reporter-broke-nsa-story-lawyer-sued-porn-biz-article-1.1383448
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

164. What utter nonsense. Democrats have always opposed these

Bush policies way before Greenwald was ever heard of.

What do you think Greenwald's 'agenda' was when he was opposing and writing about these same policies during the Bush years?

Do you think that Progressives are ever influenced by the old 'look over here' strategy you are using, that we are so accustomed to now?

And another question, what if Greenwald has personal problems, which he doesn't btw, what difference would that make to the FACTS OF THESE allegations??



.

[cui bono]

182. Don't you think it's ridiculous for the new complaint to be that he wants attention when he's

a reporter? Why would a reporter not want attention? And of course the attention he's getting is for his stories, it's not like he's out dancing naked int he streets.

Seems to be the new meme. I guess all the others didn't work.

[cui bono]

181. He's a reporter. He writes things he thinks people should read. You are confusing him with someone

whose job isn't to get attention. He's getting attention for his stories as a journalist, which is exactly what he's supposed to do in that profession.

It's not like he's out dancing naked in the streets ffs.

[Shampoyeto]

34. And you have "no doubt" that Laura Poitras didn't give the Der Spiegel Magazine the documents?

right? If so, explain how you know that.

Also state when she or Greenwald gave the magazine those documents and how you know that.

[randome]

63. What difference does it make?

Snowden didn't read them before he handed them over to someone else. That's my point.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Shampoyeto]

10. Was Kerry in Brazil and Mexico when stories of NSA spying broke there? nt

[Cali_Democrat]

13. It was actually released before Brazil's Prez was going to have a state dinner in the US

The dinner was subsequently cancelled:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Americas/Latin-America-Monitor/2013/0917/Brazil-cancels-US-state-dinner-over-spying-steps-up-surveillance-at-home-video

[Shampoyeto]

15. What do Brazilian President dinners have to do with Kerry-related conspiracy theories?

Your theory was too complicated. Hence your incoherence.

[Cali_Democrat]

16. LOL. Welcome to DU. n/t

[SidDithers]

26. Again, surely...

Sid

[Tarheel_Dem]

31. !!!

[Tarheel_Dem]

20. Expect a lot more of this. It's being widely disseminated by these folks:

Democratic Underground - Read the comments
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023064050

Obama branded a war criminal in the Irish Parliament - read the comments on this one too.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023067394

The Dems are starting to wake up and smell the coffee.
We should join forces.

Don't mention Ron Paul on DU you will get eviscerated (they are still brainwashed over that).
Just mention his policies - the ordinary Dems love lots of them.

Anti bankster
Anti war
Anti Corporatism

etc. etc.

http://www.dailypaul.com/290123/one-rule-for-the-rich-and-one-rule-for-the-rest-banksters-snowden-nsa

Take a look on Democratic Underground

They have the gov't paid trolls out, trying to limit the outrage & rebellion on there.

If that is the reaction of hard core Dems to the news stories on the NSA, I want to stoke up some more of it.

Lots of traffic on DU.

It's the most popular Dem internet site, except for Huffy Po - where everything meaningful gets censored.

http://www.dailypaul.com/288556/clapper-and-feinstein-get-caught-lying-big-time#comment-3103138

They've been here a for awhile.

[Number23]

68. The reaction to the leak on Merkel by a former French big wig was pretty consistent with what alot

of these folks have been saying.

Despite the outrage in Paris and Berlin, the former head of France's secret services said the issue was being blown out of proportion and no one should be surprised by US spying.

"I'm bewildered by such worrying naiveté. You'd think the politicians don't read the reports they're sent - there shouldn't be any surprise," Bernard Squarcini told Le Figaro.

"The agencies know perfectly well that every country, even when they cooperate on anti-terrorism, spies on its allies. The Americans spy on us on the commercial and industrial level like we spy on them, because it's in the national interest to defend our businesses. No one is fooled." http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-25/angela-merkel-obama-nsa-spying-spies-espionage/5044760

As Cali_Dem has noted, the attempt by Snowden/Guardian to discredit this administration at every turn has been widely acknowledged. Even the "outrage" from politicians has dwindled to to barely above a "meh." Merkel being the exception of course. Would love to know if Germany has ever spied on the US. I'm sure that's never happened. Ever.

[Tarheel_Dem]

83. It's especially hypocritical of Merkel:

[h1]'Prolific Partner': German Intelligence Used NSA Spy Program[/h1]



Angela Merkel and her ministers claim they first learned about the US government's comprehensive spying programs from press reports. But SPIEGEL has learned that German intelligence services themselves use one of the NSA's most valuable tools.

Germany's foreign intelligence service, the BND, and its domestic intelligence agency, the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution (BfV), used a spying program of the American National Security Agency (NSA). This is evident in secret documents from the US intelligence service that have been seen by SPIEGEL journalists. The documents show that the Office for the Protection of the Constitution was equipped with a program called XKeyScore intended to "expand their ability to support NSA as we jointly prosecute CT (counterterrorism) targets." The BND is tasked with instructing the domestic intelligence agency on how to use the program, the documents say.

More here: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-intelligence-agencies-used-nsa-spying-program-a-912173.html

They ALL do it, and they know they ALL do it. That is the concensus I've heard throughout the day on NPR. The faux outrage is merely for public consumption, which is why most intelligence experts aren't concerned about it.

Mass Data: Transfers from Germany Aid US Surveillance
By Hubert Gude, Laura Poitras and Marcel Rosenbach

German intelligence sends massive amounts of intercepted data to the NSA, according to documents from whistleblower Edward Snowden, which SPIEGEL has seen. The trans-Atlantic cooperation on technical matters is also much closer than first thought.

More here: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/german-intelligence-sends-massive-amounts-of-data-to-the-nsa-a-914821.html

[Number23]

90. Wow, I'm SHOCKED@!! No really!1

Thanks for the links. That first article is a hell of a doozy.

[Jamaal510]

111. Rightfully so;

"Even the "outrage" from politicians has dwindled to to barely above a "meh."

this whole situation was basically in regards to a program that many Americans knew was happening for YEARS (a program that is perfectly legal BTW), since before this current administration. But what gets me is how so many people believe that their personal lives matter so much for the government to want to spy on them every waking minute, when there are over 300 million people in this country. Unless a person broke the law or is plotting an attack, I honestly don't see what the big deal is.

[MADem]

179. Merkel grew up in East Germany and she has that Stasi stench about her.

She's gotta work doubly hard to play her Transparency Card as a consequence of her birth.

If you do the Google on her name and "Stasi" you learn they offered her a job in her youth. She was close to Stasi agents while at school....

She wants to stay as far away from that shit as possible, so it's natural that she'd play the "Shocked, shocked" card.

The French POV is more accurate.

[cui bono]

81. Yeah, and expect more posts like yours, from all the Obama apologists who don't stand for anything

at all, just cheerleading and supporting Obama no matter what he does. We know what group does that. The "You're either for us or you're against us." crowd.

The flaw in your post is that the people you are talking about here on DU actually stand for principles, they don't blindly follow someone just because they idolize him. And the criticism is against policies, not a person. The things they were against when Bush did them they are still against when Obama does them.

Is it so hard for you to realize that people of different political persuasions can agree on certain things? Like civil liberties? You're not really that ignorant are you? I mean you're posting links to what I suppose is a Rand Paul site and saying "they've been here for a while" so you seem to think anyone who disagrees with the NSA spying is a Paul supporter/follower. You really believe that? Do you know how many people on here are against the spying?

But the ones who just hate that these stories are coming out aren't hating the substance of them, they are hating the fact that it gives valid criticism to their chosen one who can do no wrong even when he's doing the same thing Bush did and more of it. And unfortunately they've been here a while too. Which is what makes it so obvious and hypocritical.

[Tarheel_Dem]

84. Say Hi for me!

[cui bono]

86. To who?

What the fuck are you talking about?

Nothing I suspect. I don't really expect much from you.

[Tarheel_Dem]

87. "I don't really expect much from you"

[cui bono]

92. Not at all. I've just seen that posts like this is about all you can handle.

Or do you wish to prove me wrong? Got anything of substance to say?

I am curious if you are aware that people from differing political persuasions can share opinions on a few things. Are you?

Oh, you didn't answer my other question either... who am I supposed to say "hi" to?

[Bluenorthwest]

142. 'Latin America is but a cyst on the anus of the world' is the sort of 'substance' offered.

"Latin America is but a cyst on the anus of the world."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023172626#post29

Note the grinning about the bigotry emotion. Says it all, then it says more.

[cui bono]

230. There has been an attempt at substance made!

It's pretty funny.

[Tarheel_Dem]

227. If I gave two hoots about you, I might, but since I don't...

I guess it would be of substance if I fetishized GG the way you do, but that's never gonna happen.

You know what I would find substantive? If GG, with all his piss & vinegar for the U.S., would rip into this guy......



Don't you find it odd at all that he has reserved his harshest criticism for the US, and let the atrocities of Mother Russia go unchallenged? With his high profile, can you imagine what he could do to bring pressure to the former USSR over government sanctioned discrimination & violence to his bretheren? There's only one reason why he's remained silent on this, and that doesn't make him noble or courageous, it makes him a punk! ---->>>>



There's nothing courageous about this asshole either. Snowie thinks Pooty Poot is a "champion of human rights", so perhaps GG agrees with him?

[cui bono]

229. Link to me fetishizing GG please. Really. I'd love to see it.

And no, I don't find it odd since his whole point was to expose the US' NSA spying. Why would he criticize Russia to do that?

You have a link of Snowden praising Putin as a champion of human rights? Please post.

So, following your logic, because he doesn't speak out on Russia's discrimination he's a punk. That's the only reason you feel that way? Is everyone who doesn't speak out about that a punk? Or do your rules state that you must speak out about all atrocities in the country that you live in or else you are a punk?

[Tarheel_Dem]

232. This source should be okay as it's the "true liberals" bible (so to speak).

Can Edward Snowden cite human rights and still applaud Putin?
The whistleblower had few options, but let's not forget Russia's illiberal record when dealing with opponents

Peter Beaumont
The Observer, Saturday 13 July 2013 16.00 ED


.......Yet there is a "but". You can hold all of these ideas as true, yet still feel deeply uncomfortable about the manner of Snowden's request for asylum, not least his praise for Russia.

Perhaps it was no more than being naive, but to list Putin's Russia, as Snowden did, among his little list of countries for "being the first to stand against human rights violations" suggests a dangerous moral relativism.

Far from being a champion, Russia's record on human rights violations is a grim one. Snowden's meeting with human rights groups in Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport was preceded by another piece of human rights news – the posthumous conviction of whisteblower Sergei Magnitsky, who was tortured in a Russian prison and denied medical attention that might have saved his life.

Amnesty, whose representative was at the Snowden meeting, had earlier announced the latest murder of a journalist in Russia, Akhmednabi Akhmednabiev, who was killed by an unknown gunman in the North Caucasus region after his name appeared on a death list.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/13/edward-snowden-anna-politkovskaya

You're Welcome!

[Number23]

233. And thus the ankle biter was slain!

You know, I wasn't too enthusiastic about your comment about Latin America, primarily because I've spent so much time there and find it to be such an amazing country full of the most beautiful people.

But it is nothing short of FLABBERGASTING how some of these folks giving you so much shit about your comment with one side of their mouths and with the other, make equally disparaging comments about the Middle East, Africa, the Caribbean and don't forget their favorite target, the United States of America (particularly the Southern half of it) and its Democratic administration.

I know you don't pay these people any attention, and I certainly don't blame you. I just wanted you to know that you are not the only person that has noted this really bizarre and absolutely surreal 2nd grade bullying and hypocritical assery. You are by no means the only one.

[Tarheel_Dem]

234. Like I said..."It's great sport"! Any leader, including Latin American leaders, who trash this.....

country, and this administration in particular, are somehow regarded as wise truthtellers. It seems more & more that anyone who sticks up for this country & administration are viewed suspiciously at good ol' LU. To find this behavior on a site devoted to "Voting for Democrats" is otherworldly, to say the least. That's why I find them so entertaining when they attempt to "nip at my ankles".

[Number23]

235. Really, this is my last time kicking this shitty thread

I just re-read my earlier post and noticed that I said Latin America was a country.

I've spent alot of time in several PARTS of Latin America. Please forgive me. It was early on Saturday morning and I hadn't had any breakfast yet.

[cui bono]

239. I love how you think s/he's "winning"

And how a bigoted comment leaves you "unenthusiastic" rather than appalled. Oh well, birds of a feather...

I am far from slain. Although I must admit, you do slay me.

[Number23]

243. "I am far from slain. Although I must admit, you do slay me."

Definitely the quality I've come to expect.

And I love how you overlook the bigoted comments made about other parts of the world in order to focus so much truly needless and embarrassingly hypocritical attention on one post made about one small part of it. Wherever Greenwald calls home would be the Sacred Unimpeachable Spot for his ardent fans. I guess the only gored ox that matters is your own. Oh well, birds of a feather...

Are we done yet? Why yes, yes we are...

[cui bono]

246. I didn't see any others referenced here. You chose to make comments about me and call me names

so I responded to you.

What other bigoted comments are you talking about that I'm overlooking? You'll notice I conceded a point to Tarheel when s/he provided a link to a quote. So clearly that's not the one you're talking about. So let me know.

I'm not the one who is merely "less than enthusiastic" by an extremely bigoted comment just because it's made by someone who belongs to the same group to which I belong.

Clearly you have no idea what "you slay me" means though. That's fine. But ignorance doesn't make you right.

[Tarheel_Dem]

251. "I am far from slain. Although I must admit, you do slay me."

It's "ironical" ain't it?

[Number23]

257. Oh girl, the "explanation" for that bit of ridiculousness was even better

I considered it an act of genuine kindness to not even bother responding to such painful gibberish.

[cui bono]

238. Okay, I agree, that was stupid.

Do you think that discounts what he did? (I'm sure you disagree with what he did, but I'm sure you can be objective and logical even so)

What about the rest of my questions?

Links to my fetish.
And why Snowden has to speak out about atrocities in Russia when his ebjective was to out the NSA spying.

[Tarheel_Dem]

240. Well, alrighty then. You have a good one, ya' hear?

[cui bono]

241. So you admit you can't answer my questions.

Good to know. I expected as much.

You know I thought someone was just kidding when they said BOGGERs use the when they can't think of anything to say but want to make a weak attempt at making themselves appear to have won an argument/debate, but lately I've seen it is the absolute truth.

Glad you are laughing while you defend Bush policies.

[Shampoyeto]

253. Where did you get that quote about Snowden calling Putin champion of human rights?

Did he say that?

[Number23]

112. Hey, looks like you've got something on your ankle...

For someone who "never posts anything substantive" you sure got somebody's attention. A HELL of a lot of their attention. You lucky thang.

[Tarheel_Dem]

198. I love it. It's great sport!

[Marr]

102. +1. Well put.

[LuvNewcastle]

141. Hell Yeah!

[DontTreadOnMe]

204. Not against spying, speak for yourself... and put out your hair

it's on fire!

[Jamaal510]

108. Where did people get this idea

that Ron Paul is "anti-corporatism"? He is basically anything BUT that, as he has been one of the main people railing against higher top tax rates and corporate regulations. And those stupid asshole libertarians think he is "anti-war", but all it is is that he doesn't want to pay for the military. That's not being anti-war; that's just being a penny-pincher. If wars and ammunition were free, you best believe he'd invade and bomb ever country he could.

[Tarheel_Dem]

196. Ron Paul is a front runnin' phoney just like his whacked out supporters, and the fruit of his loins.

[LanternWaste]

57. After this, therefore because of this...?

After this, therefore because of this...?

[Rex]

3. A conspiracy theory?

It does seem odd.

[Fumesucker]

6. Conspiracy hypothesis would be more accurate

This has a long way to go to become a full blown theory.

[Rex]

42. True! I think I'm going to use that in conversations.

Conspiracy hypothesis.

[Spider Jerusalem]

18. If this happened under a Republican administration and a journalist did the same thing...

would you be applauding or condemning? If the actions of the NSA are wrong then they're wrong regardless of whether one supports the party currently in control of the executive branch.

[Cali_Democrat]

19. "and a journalist did the same thing"

so we can agree about what Glenn is trying to do here.

Awesome.

[Spider Jerusalem]

25. Not really

because I don't see timing release for maximum media exposure in countries targeted by NSA surveillance as necessarily "undermining the administration"...and regardless of which party is in power, this isn't something that the US should just get away with. If you'd condemn it under a Republican administration, then you should condemn it under a Democratic administration, otherwise you're nothing more than a partisan with no real principle.

[Cali_Democrat]

27. So at least we can agree on the timing. n/t

[dreamnightwind]

30. Presumably it was a poorly worded hypothetical

but it raised a very legitimate question which you appear reluctant to consider.

If the theory you two are promoting here is correct (and I'm pretty sure it is not), what would be wrong with Greenwald doing that? It would be an excellent way to force the U.S. into having a conversation about our spying activities with the people and nations we are spying on. If they're so grateful (as implied by an allusion to a terrorist incident allegedly averted in India, though there was no support made for that claim) they can let us know how grateful they are face to face, in which case Kerry owes Greenwald for the pleasure.

[cui bono]

95. I haven't seen a coherent explanation of what the timing is all about.

What is it? I don't get it.

[seveneyes]

36. I doubt Greenwald has a dog in any American politic

Even if he did time it accordingly, it would be standard practice to get as much exposure as possible.

[struggle4progress]

107. Greenwald has in the past shown up in the US to push third-parties, as he did in 2010

He has a definite dog in US political fights: he's a Libertarian

[ronnie624]

118. He says he isn't,

and that those who make the claim are liars.

[struggle4progress]

123. He's on tape. I've posted the link repeatedly. And Greenwald reflexively calls people liars

[MADem]

180. It's terribly ironic...

Particularly when he lies about his deep and longstanding association with the CATO institute which dates back to 2007 and continues to this very day.

He seems to not understand that there's video of his encounters, and his books published by them are still in circulation. And, to ice the cake, they claim him--they list him as a contributor, and any time he opens his mouth, they TOUT him.

He thinks if he keeps braying that people will believe him, instead of their own lying eyes.

[struggle4progress]

236. Poking around a bit will reveals quite a few people who find Greenwald dishonest

[ronnie624]

261. The very suggestion

that there is something wrong with writing for or speaking at CATO is inane and childish. The claim that it means I "worked at CATO" is just an obvious lie. If writing for or speaking at CATO makes one a right-wing CATO-employed libertarian, then say hello to the following right-wing libertarian CATO employees, all of whom have been writers for or speakers at the CATO Institute in the past:

Daily Kos founder Markos Moulitsas (Writing for CATO's Unbound: here and here);

Democratic Sen. Ron Wyden (speaking about surveillance issues at CATO in January, 2011, speaking again at CATO in July, 2012 about FISA, and favorably citing CATO);

Democratic Rep. Jared Polis (defending CATO as "a leader in fighting to end the war in Afghanistan and Iraq and helping to end the War on Drugs&quot .

the ACLU's Legislative Counsel Michelle Richardson (speaking at the CATO Institute's 2011 event on FISA);

Brown University Professor Glenn Loury (writing for CATO's Unbound);

liberal blogger and Clinton Treasury official Brad DeLong (writing for CATO's Unbound);

Harvard law Professor Lawrence Lessig (writing for CATO's Unbound);

liberal blogger and GWU Professor Henry Farrell (writing for CATO's Unbound); and

Wall Street critic and securities professor William Black (writing for CATO's Unbound).

Trying to judge someone for where they write or speak - rather than for the ideas they advocate - is about as anti-intellectual and McCarthyite as it gets. CATO has a far better record of advocacy than the mainstream Democratic Party on vital issues such as opposing the Drug War, secrecy abuses, the Surveillance State, marriage equality for LGBT citizens, anti-war activism, and reforming the excesses of America's penal state. They were attacking Bush and Cheney for power abuses (see here) and aggressive wars (see here) far earlier, and far more loudly, than most mainstream Democratic politicians

http://ggsidedocs.blogspot.com.br/2013/01/frequently-told-lies-ftls.html

[MADem]

262. A list of people who will take the money for writing a single "article".....so?

Greenwald's long, varied and constant association with them goes all the way back to at least 2007--maybe even earlier.

And it wasn't "one" article or "one" speech---he was, in effect, on their payroll in 2008-9. They published his book. He goes to their donor parties and is touted as one of their "contributors."

It's not an "occasional" relationship. He gets checks from the Koch Bros. regularly.

The fact that he is working so hard to disavow them makes his association with them even more fishy. If he just said "I was in it for the Benjamins" no one would fault him. The fact that he's trying to diminish the relationship now becomes suspicious--he's obviously ashamed of the connection, which is why he wants to pretend it is less than it is.

[ronnie624]

263. I am not now, nor have I ever been, employed by the Cato Institute.

Nor have I ever been affiliated with the Cato Institute in any way. The McCarthyite tone of the denials is appropriate given the McCarthyite nature of the lie.

In seven-plus years of political writing, I have written a grand total of twice for Cato: the first was a 2009 report on the success of drug decriminalization in Portugal, and the second was a 2010 online debate in which I argued against former Bush officials about the evils of the surveillance state.

I not only disclosed those writings but wrote about them and featured them multiple times on my blog as it happened: see here and here as but two examples. In 2008, I spoke at a Cato event on the radicalism and destructiveness of Bush/Cheney executive power theories.

That's the grand total of all the work I ever did for or with Cato in my life. The fees for those two papers and that one speech were my standard writing and speaking fees. Those payments are a miniscule, microscopic fraction of my writing and speaking income over the last 7 years. I have done no paying work of any kind with them since that online surveillance debate in 2010 (I spoke three times at Cato for free: once to debate the theme of my 2007 book on the failure of the Bush administration, and twice when I presented my paper advocating drug decriminalization).

http://ggsidedocs.blogspot.com.br/2013/01/frequently-told-lies-ftls.html

[muriel_volestrangler]

80. No, it doesn't. He was giving a speech in the US on Thursday

"What we do in Washington matters deeply to them, and that is why a self-inflicted wound like the shutdown that we just endured can never happen again," Kerry told the Center of American Progress policy think tank.
...
But back in Washington on Thursday after several weeks of non-stop travel in Asia and Europe, Kerry said the shutdown had affected confidence in the United States abroad.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/24/us-usa-fiscal-kerry-idUSBRE99N1JJ20131024

Of course, you could read the article, and see that it concentrates on the UK, not the USA. If you want a conspiracy theory about the timing, then the summit of the EU leaders which started today would be the more obvious 'target'. Unsurprisingly, "David Cameron stayed silent as he entered the summit".

But, of course, a plot to embarrass Cameron wouldn't mark Greenwald as a 'Paulite', so you had to go for the conspiracy with worse timing, and that ignores how the story was written, so that you could get your Greenwald smear in, didn't you?

[morningfog]

100. His interest is keeping the story alive, and he is doing well at it.

[grantcart]

117. Talking about coincidences what about all of the impassioned

new 'Democrat' members who are extremely well informed about exactly one issue.


Don't seem to see much overlap on 'transfer of wealth' issues.


Hey but that's just a coincidence.

[Th1onein]

130. Once again, you're engaging in attacks on the messenger, and not looking at the message.

Oh, and, by the way? Have you heard Snowden's girlfriend is a pole dancer and he keeps a lot of boxes in his garage?

[leftynyc]

11. Poor Glennie

He's sorry he's not getting the attention he think he so richly deserves.

[Shampoyeto]

17. Did you just say Glenn Greenwald is not getting attention?

http://www.newsweek.com/glenn-greenwald-and-future-leaks-758

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/24/italy-usa-spying-idUSL5N0IE2X420131024

http://www.npr.org/2013/10/20/238136423/what-glenn-greenwald-could-gain-from-new-media-venture

Etcetera

Etcetera

Etcetera

[pnwmom]

21. He's getting plenty and that's his aim.

[frylock]

50. what's yours?

[pnwmom]

56. What's yours?

[frylock]

73. i'm rubber, you're glue

[cui bono]

97. Well DUH! He's a journalist, his JOB is to get information out to the public.

Last edited Fri Oct 25, 2013, 11:35 AM - Edit history (1)

[leftynyc]

121. I sees someone else

already cleared up your unbelievably twisted interpretation of what I wrote. All he's looking for his attention and he wasn't getting enough of it so once again, he pops up with a new thing for us to get outraged about. A very predictable pattern for him.

[Warren Stupidity]

32. "glennie" one step short of outright homophobia.

[leftynyc]

119. Why?

I say the same thing for Glennie Beck. But if you want to get bent out of shape, knock yourself out. Any look at my posts over the last decade or so will show how foolish calling me a homophobe is.

[Warren Stupidity]

203. you are deliberately emasculating a grown man

by using a small child's version of his name. It isn't overt homophobia, it's one step short.

But you know that, or at least you should.

[leftynyc]

212. I'm infantilizing him

What does that have to do with his being gay? In my opinion he behaves like a child having a temper tantrum from being ignored. If you want to make it about his sex life, knock yourself out.

[frylock]

49. it's eating you up inside that this is getting attention..

just absolutely killing you, isn't it?

[leftynyc]

120. LOL - uh, no

I sincerely couldn't possibly care less. The only thought I took of him today but this OP and the 3 seconds it took to post what I did. Then I moved on with my life. Much more important issues to get obsessed about.

[frylock]

172. it's evident that you couldn't possibly care less every time you post in these threads..

usually when I don't give a shit about something, I refrain from opining on it. not you folks though. nope. post after post about all the attention "glennie" craves. i'm so sick of greenwald i'm going to make another about post about how sick I am of greenwald derp.

[leftynyc]

189. Yawn

Anything I give less than 30 seconds to is simply a distraction and nothing that I lose sleep over but if that's what you want to believe, do knock yourself out.

[frylock]

194. and here we are again, not caring less..

I can do this all day.

[struggle4progress]

109. A search of the Barack Obama group for the last two years didn't turn up "Glennie"

Maybe you should try harder to confine yourself to facts

[bobduca]

113. Hooray everybody loves the Internet Archivist

trying harder here would violate terms and conditions.

[struggle4progress]

115. Bottom-dragging for reactions seems somewhat low-brow to me

[Bobbie Jo]

125. Not to mention....

"against terms and conditions," apparently.

[struggle4progress]

126. Oh, dearie me! A jury hid that silly reaction-seeking nonsense! I do wonder why

[L0oniX]

155. Too many church ladies in the jury pool again?

[struggle4progress]

160. Or maybe more and more DUers are getting tired of ODS and accusatory shrieks "You support Obama!"

instead of real conversation

[L0oniX]

170. "real conversation"? ...in there? LOL

I support good ideas and good policy. I don't blindly support someone good or bad.

“My country right or wrong” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, “My mother drunk or sober.” - G. K. Chesterton

[L0oniX]

156. Those "against terms and conditions," are also hidden ...apparently.

[bvar22]

256. Avoid getting baited into a response that could go to a Jury...

..... until the adults or people with jobs get home.

[sibelian]

135. I think you should stick to the subject, don't you?

Have you anything to say about the American intelligence services and Italy?

[leftynyc]

143. I've made my position on

the NSA being an out of control nightmare many times on this board. That I can walk and chew gum at the same time allows me to have disdain for the NSA and Greenwald at the same time.

[Logical]

184. LOL, he is getting plenty! nt

[leftynyc]

190. On here, sure

Ask any 10 people on the street and I think you may, may find one who has even heard of him. I think 1 in 50 is closer to reality.

[Logical]

216. Lol, same with Grayson, frankin, olbermann, etc. nice try. nt

[leftynyc]

221. A congressman,

A senator (I'll go ahead an assume you mean Al Franken) and a man who has had his own show on a news station and a sports station vs a journalist for a British paper (until he left or got fired or whatever). Seriously? That's the best you can come up with? Go ahead with your worship - it obviously helps keep you warm at night.

[Logical]

222. Go ahead with your denial, it is easier than the truth! nt

[leftynyc]

223. Oh yes,

How will I ever get through life without worshiping the greatest journalist EVAH!!! You really do sound like a clown at this point.

[randome]

224. Will you two get a room?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Logical]

226. Snowden made a difference! LOL, ask the NSA! And people like you whine...

About it because you swore early he did not!

Get over it!

[pnwmom]

23. "not only the fight against terrorism." What is it then?

How do they know?

[frylock]

52. better question: why would you care?

your view on this subject is widely known. you don't give a shit, it's much ado about nothing as it's already known, and yet it's still an act of treason. can't figure out why you continue to engage in these threads.

[pnwmom]

55. Why do you?

[frylock]

72. because i'm a civil libertarian that doesn't suspend my views when someone i like holds office

[pnwmom]

76. And I have no problem with Snowden releasing information

about US internal surveillance -- which should be strongly debated.

But I think he is very wrong to make these leaks about our spying on other countries, and I have just as much right to express that opinion as you do to express yours.

[cui bono]

93. It's in the OP.

"unscrupulous criteria". So it appears they have evidence of what was being searched for in other words

Oh, and also, they're spying on companies now too. So there's that.

[JaneyVee]

24. So what. I couldn't give a damn if the worlds ruling class are all spying on each other

And paranoid.

[woo me with science]

37. Excuse me? You don't care if the US government is used for corporate spying?

You sure as hell should.

[darkangel218]

28. They spied for pizza recepies.

[cloudbase]

70. Or getting the secret

to Moto Guzzi's 1995 motorcycle engine technology.

[Bluenorthwest]

145. Gee if they spied on an Asian nation would you say 'were they looking for good rice recipies'?

That is xenophobic crapola.

[darkangel218]

210. It was a joke, lighten uo Francis!!

[xchrom]

29. du rec.

[Blue_Tires]

35. So when do we get to the good stuff?

I've been burning to know how extensive our eavesdropping is in Israel, Russia, and China; and what those operations have turned up...

[woo me with science]

38. Mass surveillance of the US's own citizens, now corporate spying...

We are well past serious abuse of power at this point. These are the actions of corporate fascism.

No, we're not still waiting for "the good stuff," however much the corporate propaganda would like to present these revelations as unimportant.

They are deadly serious.

[Blue_Tires]

153. You be satisfied with the snack crumbs...

I'm more interested in seeing just how deep the iceberg is..

EDIT: In a 'last-word' response, you link to your own post citing your own axiom about "propagandists" (which evidently I must be since everyone keeps throwing that word around) always needing to get the last word in...That's meta as fuck...That's even beyond meta, it's like the "Inception" of meta...

[woo me with science]

161. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3915639

[woo me with science]

39. Huge K&R. So now we have evidence of both mass spying on citizens AND corporate spying.

This is subversion of the powers of a Democratic government to serve corporate interests.

This sounds very much like the behavior of corporate fascism.

[struggle4progress]

110. Actually, what we have so far is a teaser, in an Italian paper, saying "Greenwald says"

[tridim]

132. Sure, if you buy GG's scam.

Which you obviously do for some reason.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

138. Rec.

[melody]

40. How long have Democrats been saying the NSA is dangerous? How long were we ignored?

And now that there's a Democrat in office, suddenly they're awakening to the dangers? Get real -- Europe has known this for years.

[woo me with science]

44. And is it still dangerous? Or is this post a bid

for Democrats to act like Republicans and downplay it because our party is in office?

Surely you are not trying to minimize the abuse of government power here or criticize those who call it to attention...are you?

[melody]

46. Was I attempting to?

My point is the people in the NSA know no allegiance except to themselves. I think we have to be very careful before letting certain people on and off the hook -- that includes Americans and Europeans -- oh, and Democrats.

[woo me with science]

53. Their allegiance appears to be to the same multinational banks and corporations

that have purchased the rest of our government.

Thank you for clarifying that your post was not an attempt to downplay the seriousness of these revelations, just because a Democrat is in office.

[melody]

61. Hell, no

I am downplaying the role of *this* Democrat in office. He is being targeted because he's the most progressive -- and a Democrat. That's why it's all coming out now. That and the NSA is going global.

[woo me with science]

65. Sorry, the nation is waking up to that game.

Each side downplays the abuse in turn, because their guy is in office.

Get each side to circle the wagons, and the nation can never unite to stop the looting.

That scam doesn't fly anymore.

[melody]

78. Did you ever read the White Paper about "using libertarians and independents"

... by suggesting that both parties are the same?

If it wasn't proved by our shutdown, I don't know what would prove it. Obama is NOT their flavor of Democrat -- Hillary Clinton is, but not Obama.

My point is you're being scammed while you're resisting being scammed.

[woo me with science]

99. That was a sad post,

but illustrative of the desperation of the propaganda. I'm afraid the days of trying to make this about Obama or about evil "Libertarians" are long past. This is much larger than one Democratic politician or a fringe political party that is not even in power.

In fact, it is huge. These revelations of corporate spying in Italy cut to the heart of the corporate takeover of our government that is destroying this nation and driving millions into poverty and despair. Not only have we learned that the United States of America is a surveillance state engaging in unconstitutional mass spying and data collection on its own citizens, ....and not only is the NSA being used to strangle investigative journalism, probably the most important defense we have against abuses of power by government....

Not only that, but now we finally also see the actual subversion of this govenment spy agency, massively funded by citizen tax dollars,....for corporate espionage.

This is the definition of corporate fascism. This is subversion of the core purpose and use of our government, for corporate ends. We don't *have* a democratic representative government anymore. We are now ruled by corporate interests that are turning our own government against us and corrupting its entire reason for existing.

I suspect that you will require the last word here; that seems to be an unwritten rule of the propaganda. But you cant downplay this, no matter how hard you try. This is deadly serious stuff, and all the attempts in the world to make this about Obama or party loyalty or Libertarians will not divert from the importance of these revelations.

Goodnight.

[melody]

103. Your own posts are illustrative of the problem of "isms"

Be careful you don't follow the wrong god home.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

139. Yep, you got in the last word.

[melody]

144. I have no idea what you're talking about

But you get in the last word and we'll leave it at that.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

158. Obviously, you responded to #99, including the last paragraph within it.

[bvar22]

252. Here. This should help you "understand".

The Goal is not to convince anyone of anything.

It is to thoroughly hijack, pollute and therefore eliminate public spaces where real discussion and organization can occur. Occupy is disbanded with clubs and pepper spray. Dissent and organization online are disrupted with surveillance and propaganda.

It is no accident that propaganda brigades post new threads on discussion boards far out of proportion to their presence in the community, and that they nearly *always* demand the last word in any interchange.

The goal is to disrupt the important public space for liberal thought, discussion, and organization that these boards offer, and to keep the participants busy instead batting off the corporate lies and talking points.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801

[melody]

254. I'm a liberal Democrat -- I have been one all my life

And I use my REAL name. If you're suggesting I'm a troll, that is what I'd say. I have been here since the very beginning.

[LondonReign2]

228. On what policies do Obama and Clinton differ?

[L0oniX]

150. Democrats?

[melody]

157. Yeah, see the name of the site? Most of us are Democrats here n/t

[L0oniX]

159. You mean the dino, dlc, 3rdway gov shills that are comfortable with the NSA spying on everyone?

[melody]

225. No, I didn't say the DLC, Dinos or the like -- I said the Democrats

The people who are Democrats.

I live in Zappa's hometown, btw. (The one where he went to high school)

[L0oniX]

41. He's a hero.

[woo me with science]

45. +100000

[mimi85]

71. Hopefully you left off

the sarcasm thingy. If I never saw him or heard his name it would be too soon.

[Autumn]

82. ^^^^^^This^^^^^^

yes he is.

[Octafish]

147. If you believe in Democracy.

Definitely.

Those having no problem with Police State USA seem to be gaining in numbers.

[L0oniX]

148. The majority has always been the ignorant sleeping sheep. Poppies anyone?

[Octafish]

187. More than a few posted they'd be OK if the Constitution was scrapped.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3793016

[woo me with science]

176. There is a constant, unnatural influx of corporate/Third Way personas to this site.

I have written about this before: http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3358717

And it's not just DU. Political sites across the internet are experiencing it.

States that build surveillance machines also build propaganda machines.

[Octafish]

188. Must be a lot of money in that.

Last edited Mon Nov 4, 2013, 03:10 PM - Edit history (1)

For there isn't any money in standing up for Democracy, which is its only reward.

The Lewis Powell Memo - Corporate Blueprint to Dominate Democracy

[gcomeau]

43. Bombshell: Intelligence Agency Engages In Intelligence Gathering

The constant pretending that this is shocking to people is getting beyond old.

[woo me with science]

48. No, corporate spying is not the job of the US government.

It sure as hell should not be.

The corporate propaganda here is shameless and extremely transparent. No, spying on foreign companies and mass surveillance of its own citizens are NOT the roles of the NSA. These are behaviors that abuse government power and are beginning to sound a lot like corporate fascism.

[gcomeau]

54. There is a difference between monitoring the activities of corporations...

...and "corporate spying".

And yes it sure as hell is part of the job of the intelligence services to do the former. Grow up.

[woo me with science]

58. The propaganda is shameless, outrageous,

and ubiquitous.

This is how corrupt this country has become by corporate interests.

[gcomeau]

59. The labeling of basic simple facts as "propaganda" is childish. -eom

[woo me with science]

69. The problem with much of the propaganda

is that it assumes stupidity on the part of Americans. It relies on the assumption that they will have forgotten, or never learned, what the role and limits of their democratic government should be.

Shame on anyone who participates in trying to teach Americans that mass surveillance of private citizens and spying for corporate interests are the role of a democratic government.

As per the unwritten rule of corporate propaganda at DU, you will require the last word. Don't believe, however, that those aware of (and not complicit in) the incessant corporate messaging here are buying any of it.

[solarhydrocan]

75. + a trillion!!! excellent posts.

[L0oniX]

149. ^^^this^^^

[gcomeau]

167. Shame on anyone...

...who doesn't bother engaging in the discussion actually being held and just starts assigning positions to the person they are speaking to so they can rant at those instead. See you around Captain Strawman.


I said nothing about "mass surveillance of private citizens" during this conversation. Mainly because I have addressed that bit of idiocy elsewhere and am tired of bothering to discuss it further. And I pointed out to you the difference between monitoring the activities of corporations (guess what, governments aren't the only entities that do things that matter to the nation genius) and "spying for corporate interests" but you just whipped right past that without bothering to pay one single little bit of attention and repeated your original claim.

[riderinthestorm]

183. Your persistence in the face of the ignorance is amazing. Keep up the good work!!

[bvar22]

255. " it assumes stupidity on the part of Americans"

Funny you should mention that.

[font size=2]"All propaganda must be presented in a popular form and must fix its intellectual level so as not to be above the heads of the least intellectual of those to whom it is directed.[font size=3] Thus its purely intellectual level will have to be that of the lowest mental common denominator among the public it is desired to reach.[/font] When there is question of bringing a whole nation within the circle of its influence, as happens in the case of war propaganda, then too much attention cannot be paid to the necessity of avoiding a high level, which presupposes a relatively high degree of intelligence among the public. "[/font]
---volume 1, chapter 6 of Mein Kampf (1925)

You are also correct in noticing that "they"
are increasing in number at DU.

It is worth noting that "they" are the most vocal and disruptive at DU in threads that discuss the NSA and Whistle Blowers,
as is more than adequately displayed in this thread.

[woo me with science]

258. [phone]

Thank you.

[frylock]

74. so your cools with china "monitoring the activities of corporations" in america?

[gcomeau]

163. No, but I also recognize every country is going to do it.

What the fuck do you think countries have intelligence services for? Monitoring the weather?

[frylock]

165. i know what they have them for, it doesn't mean i have to fucking like or accept it.

[gcomeau]

169. Well tough.

Rail against the real world all day long for all the good it'll do you.

[frylock]

173. stfu would have easier to type out

[gcomeau]

174. Would also have meant something completely different.

Like I said, rail away. I'm just pointing out it's pointless. Shake your fist at reality all you like it isn't going away.

[frylock]

197. thank goodness we have Reality-based Real World Realists here like you to point out that reality

[gcomeau]

209. Indeed.

Now if only people would pay attention to it instead of preferring to construct their own little preferred fantasy worlds where the world operates the way they prefer instead of how it actually does we'd be getting somewhere.

[frylock]

213. again, you do us a great service and i am forever in your debt..

now if you'll excuse me, I have to feed and water my unicorn.

[gcomeau]

220. Enjoy feeding time. -eom

[joshcryer]

105. Actually, it is in the interests of all governments to do it.

Look at China's political and corporate espionage. Look at Russia's internet espionage.

Of course Russia can do no wrong so it doesn't get posted about by the type like Glenn Greenwald, and the Russian Wikileaks files were never released. Strange, indeed.

[gcomeau]

171. It's almost not worth bothering explaining it

They obviously simply don't want to hear it.

[joshcryer]

247. They got nothing.

I keep trying to engage the straw men but it never happens. Disappointing really. I would really like them to explain to me how it is not in a governments interest to do corporate espionage.

What's even more amusing is how this is actually a rehash of an article from September.

[bvar22]

259. Specifically WHAT "Strawmen" are you whining about,?

and please cite the threads where you have been "trying to engage the straw men"?

I see you didn't take my advice about reviewing exactly what a "Strawman" is.
Here, I'll post the link again
so you can avoid future public embarrassment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


Here. I'll make it easy.
Show us the "Strawman":

[joshcryer]

260. Um. Please read what I wrote. Post #105.

Where is the rebuttal to what I said?

Oh, that's right, insults, hateful vitriol is all I get.

[Warren DeMontague]

51. Are you suggesting that, say, Corporate Espionage doesn't qualify as "fighting terror"?

Terror to the bottom line, Jocko!

[KoKo]

62. It's Getting harder and harder to believe that this is just BUSH STUFF..

We DEMS are looking like we Own It NOW!

I did NOT VOTE FOR THIS....I don't know if OBAMA was CO-OPTED into THIS after Inauguration....and why it CONTINUES...

BUT we have an ELECTED TWICE DEMOCRAT ...WHO MUST STOP THIS AND REVEAL AND CHANGE what's BEEN DONE!

HE MUST DO THIS! BECAUSE ....WE VOTED FOR HIM for a SECOND TERM that WOULD NOT BE...like his FIRST TERM...when he had to SHOVEL OUT THE SHIT OF THE BUSH 2 ...and I gave him a break because the Shadow of BUSH II, CHENEY, RUMMY did HOVER over the 2008 Election. I Gave him a BREAK and voted for him a Second Term.

It's NOW TIME for POB to stand up and MAKE THAT CHANGE HE PROMISED US! He's had his WALL ST. TIME. It's NOW TIME...........FOR THE PEOPLE!

[jsr]

67. +1.

[struggle4progress]

127. "Greenwald says" by itself doesn't carry much credibility with me. He has an agenda,

and it's not the dispassionate transfer of information to the public

[bvar22]

177. You have "an agenda" too.

Can you point to documented cases of Greenwald releasing phony information?

That is the ONLY valid criteria upon which to base an opinion.
All the rest is BS.

[struggle4progress]

248. You could look, for example, at Greenwald's misuse of a blog entry by Mark Klamberg, to support

Greenwald's claim that Assange would be in danger of forward-extradition from Sweden to the US

Klamberg, a Swedish legal professional, actually held a view opposite to that of Greenwald, which did not prevent Greenwald from claiming Klamberg was supporting his views

And when Klamberg began to object that Greenwald misrepresented Klamberg's views, Greenwald (without missing a beat) launched a series of personal attacks on Klamberg.

This BTW is vintage Greenwald behavior and nothing surprising to anyone who has paid attention to several of Greenwald's escapades

The Snowden affair, sadly, has also produced a number host of examples of Greenwald stretching the truth for the sake of controversy pushing Greenwald's name before the public, which have been discussed here rather extensively

[Luminous Animal]

88. Kick.

[jberryhill]

89. Did they question Berlusconi's good character?

[Oilwellian]

94. Odd how they mention corporate espionage, but...

offer no details. If it was for monetary gain, this won't end well for us.

[woo me with science]

98. +1 We always knew the ultimate revelations would be about corporate subversion of government.

This is ugly, corrupt stuff that strikes at the core of the malignancy in our government....which is why the propaganda machine is working overtime.

[upi402]

104. energy, money, or power

they're all fungible.

and all else is distraction for the plebes.
it's what makes US do stuff. i'd bet on it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

96. “News is what somebody somewhere wants to suppress; all the rest is advertising.” Lord Northcliffe

Glenn Greenwald is a great journalist.

[grahamhgreen]

116. Wow, looks like NSA trolls all over this thread, lol:)

Time for them to stop some real crime, isn't it?

[davidpdx]

129. Everyone who expresses an opinion you disagree with is an NSA troll?

Hyperbole much?

[woo me with science]

146. We live in very creepy times.

Discussion boards aren't just discussion boards anymore. States that build surveillance machines also build propaganda machines.

It is really depressing to see this level of lying propaganda in the United States of America, but it does highlight how deep, serious, and pervasive the malignant takeover of this country by corporate interests really is.

[questionseverything]

211. the flip side is

if "they" thought they could win the propaganda wars with facts they would not need the personas

while i agree it is deep and pervasive,if it was that deep we would not see the same players over and over

just trying to look for a positive note to encourage you

[fasttense]

128. Seems corporations have found a useful tool in the NSA

Since the NSA is basically contracted out to corporations it was just a matter of time before the NSA was used in industrial spying. Now any corporations can hit up the NSA for blackmail data if they want to force a country's politicians to roll over and do as they are told.

With the corporate NSA spying on everyone, there is no limit to what or who a corporation can own.

[randome]

131. There is no evidence -none- that the NSA is selling information.

Monitoring corporations probably has other uses than trying to increase our own bottom line.

Hazardous waste dumping, for one. Pollution prevention measures, for another. Bribes.

I have no idea why the NSA wants to monitor foreign corporations but since their job is to monitor foreign communications, why assume the worst without evidence?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[L0oniX]

162. Well that would be a national security issue subject to being kept secret.

See how that works?

[randome]

199. It's Obama who established the National Declassification Center.

http://www.acus.gov/best-practices/success-story/national-archivesnational-declassification-center/

The office is behind schedule but they are declassifying everything they can.

And if you're going to be mad that the NSA might be keeping too many secrets, well, I don't know what to say. For myself, I need to see some evidence of the NSA using corporate data for personal gain before I lose any sleep over it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

178. It doesn't matter what we assume. It matters what the rest of the

world 'assumes'. And they have been outspoken about their outrage, not just governments, but ordinary citizens from countries all over the world, who have been spied on by a foreign government. THEY are pressuring THEIR Governments to protect them now from the US's intrusion into their personal lives.


Do you think any of this is GOOD for this country? Would anyone who cared about this country even consider doing this to the US, because it is TO the country. I consider anyone who supported this to be a traitor. Bush/Cheney et al who even Comey and Ashcroft, when discovering what they were up to, could not support.

I have no idea why you are trying to defend it. It is indefensible.

[cui bono]

186. +1

[randome]

195. I'm not defending it. I'm saying I don't care and I think that's how most people think.

Are you saying that the U.S. should never, ever spy on another country? Just unilaterally give up on monitoring human trafficking, drug cartels, child pornography rings and terrorist organizations because we don't want to offend anyone's sensibilities?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Ichingcarpenter]

200. 'I think that's how most people think".

except for world leaders and the rest of the world.

I love your non existant poll on world opinion on how most of the world 'thinks'

[randome]

205. Politicians play politics.

It's like the Pakistani PM having a private meeting with Obama to protest the use of drones while that government clears airspace and supplies coordinates for the strikes.

Both France and Germany now say they want to set new rules for spying. Good for them but I don't believe for a moment that they don't spy on their neighbors and allies, too.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Ichingcarpenter]

208. yes they are so clever

the US never knows and the US can produce no evidence that they spy on the US like we do with the leaders of the world.

[randome]

214. Since when do law enforcement agencies report to you or me?

They're not going to divulge any information unless it's prudent to do so. Do you think the U.S. government really cares if France or Germany spies on us? There is no doubt in my mind there is a 'gentleman's agreement' that no one rats out another country unless something egregious occurs.

Like Snowden.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Ichingcarpenter]

219. Do you think the U.S. government really cares if France or Germany spies on us?

and taps the president's phone and e mail?

Of course not.........

You're kidding by defending the over blown arrogant agency of the NSA with this course of logic.


NSA Chief: Reporters Must Be Stopped
Accuses Media of Creating 'Dramatic, Convenient Lie'





NSA Chief Gen. Keith Alexander gave a long interview today with the Pentagon’s “Armed With Science” blog, calling on the world to find some way to stop international media outlets from reporting about his agency’s surveillance programs based on leaked documents.

“We ought to come up with a way of stopping it. I don’t know how to do that,” Alexander insisted, saying that the ability of media outlets to report on the NSA “just doesn’t make sense” to him.

The focus of Alexander’s comments to the military blog was insisting that all media reports on the NSA were a “dramatic, convenient lie,” followed by an admonition for troops not to “give into the hype” and to trust the NSA unconditionally.

Alexander’s comments during the NSA scandal have mostly been blanket denials, and even after some of those denials have been proven flat out untrue he has stuck to that story. He seems to still be holding out hope that after months of confirmed reports based on official documents, everyone will somehow be convinced to forget about everything and just trust him



http://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2013/10/nsa-chief-stop-reporters-selling-spy-documents-175896.html?hp=r2

[sabrina 1]

250. Laws, there are LAWS governing police work, and we have them for a

REASON. The NSA has been violating the law going back decades. It is now at the point where the entire world has been subjected to their illegal and immoral activities and the world is about to reign in these abuses since the US has failed to do it.

What a mistake it was not to prosecute the architects of all these abuses. We are now seeing the result of not abiding by the Rule of Law. We have, as China of all places, said, among others, lost the moral authority to point fingers at anyone, and we lost when we did not prosecute the Bush gang and decided to move on.

What you or I care about is irrelevant. I am talking about facts, facts Progressives PREDICTED back when Congress covered for Bush when his spying policies were exposed.

[Democat]

133. The anti-corporation crowd on DU is concerned about Corporations being spied on?

Hatred of Obama trumps all else?

[Puzzledtraveller]

134. Que?

[sabrina 1]

175. Who are the 'anti-Corporation crowd on DU'?? I have not met a

Democrat who is anti Corporation. I HAVE met Democrats, and even a few people who are not even political, who are ANTI CORRUPT Corrupt Corporations.

So could you name some of these anti Corporation DUers because they probably don't belong here on a Democratic Forum.

[cui bono]

185. What? By what logic you you reach that conclusion?

And also, where is the hatred of Obama? I see criticism of him, but not hatred. Links please?

[Shampoyeto]

217. I am anti -republican. Should i advocate spying on Republicans? nt

[LondonReign2]

231. You statement is logic fail in so many ways I don't know where to start

[joshcryer]

244. They are actually very pro-corporate.

They are anti-capitalist. They are for corporatist socialism.

Socialist governments can do no wrong. Anti-American governments can do no wrong. Only the United States is the bad guy.

I don't recall this outrage when Russia did its internet spying. I don't recall this outrage when China did it.

And I'm amused at the mere concept that states don't do this. All states do it on some level or another.

[okieinpain]

218. lol, somebody is going to get fired. mean while italy, germany and the rest

will continue to spy on the USA. lol.

[wildbilln864]

249. k & r! n/t