Dear Josh Marshall: Please explain which allied countries are spying on which "US Leaders"

[Shampoyeto]

Being an Obama loyalist is ok, but making stuff up without even giving a hint as to what evidence backs up a claim is bad journalism.

"Churning through countless domestic phone calls is one thing - that has very real constitutional implications. It may be a similar thing with doing that in Spain or other countries in Europe and the Middle East, though the constitutional questions are very different. But please, please spare me the shock and surprise that the US spies on foreign leaders, even allies, even close allies. These countries spy on our leaders too. The only real exception is within the special club of the US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand where, for a variety of historical reasons, a pretty different set of rules and integration apply."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/ok-please-enough

By the way, Marshall had "enough" since day 1 of Snowden's leaks. His headline makes it seem as he now suddenly stopped considering NSA leaks shocking. He never did.

The USA is spying on entire cabinets including Presidents. Are other countries doing the same to us? No "I bet" or "I guess" or "you can't prove they aren't". Those don't count as journalism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Well, there is an explanation to this

[Aerows]

16. Ha!

Good one.

[KoKo]

20. I remember Josh from the "Muckraker Days."

His quote on his early Blog was "You've Got Muck..We've Got Rakes!" He was really great back in those early days. We even exchanged some thoughts in e-mails back then when he was starting out.


He changed....

And, he's never accepted that Snowden was a whistleblower. I stopped reading him a couple years ago. He got "programmed," or something.

Sad..that. But, he's got two kids now and that does change one's viewpoint about how much "Muck" one should "Rake." And, many of his efforts like with Tom Delay...and others that he did a great job of bringing attention to "Got Off" in the end without jail time or other justice being brought to bear. That had to be discouraging...so, I don't want to be too hard on him.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. You forgot, 911 also happened.

That changed a lot of people.

[ProSense]

2. Here's some good information.

Which Other Countries Are ‘In Bed’ With The NSA?

By Hayes Brown

With three of their partners’ signal intelligence collection programs revealed, it’s only a matter of time before all eyes turn to two of the most seemingly innocuous members of the world stage: Canada and New Zealand.

<...>

Australia has recently found itself the most recent target of Snowden’s cache of documents. Just days ago, the land down under’s participation in the NSA’s intelligence gathering was splashed across headlines. In the pages of Brazil’s O Globo newspaper, Glenn Greenwald — one journalist who originally received the NSA documents from Snowden — catalogued the existence of a series of four NSA listening stations throughout Australia.

What the United States, United Kingdom, and Australia all have in common is joint membership in an organization known colloquially as “The Five Eyes.” In a 1943 agreement — not even officially acknowledged until 2005 and declassified in 2010 — the U.S. and Britain agreed to share signal intelligence between themselves and the Dominions of Canada, New Zealand, and Australia. Under the terms of the pact, formally known as the UKUSA Agreement, electronic information collected in the course of espionage can be passed freely among themselves, circumventing the normal controls against foreign sharing that intelligence usually possesses.

For those keeping track, that still leaves two of the Five Eyes’ participation remaining relatively concealed or at least not the focus of a leak. Thus far, the Communications Security Establishment Canada (CSEC) and New Zealand’s Government Communications Security Bureau have managed to avoid major scrutiny or revelations about the programs that they operate. Given the new interest in revealing legal cooperation in intelligence sharing, however, it’s not hard to guess that they might be next.

- more -

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/07/10/2276191/snowden-five-eyes/

France, Germany And Brazil Have Surveillance Agencies Too
http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/10/21/2807751/france-germany-brazil-surveillance/

Brazil’s Leader Asks Canada to Explain Its Spying
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/08/world/americas/brazil-leader-asks-canada-to-explain-its-spying.html

In Spy Uproar, ‘Everyone Does It’ Just Won’t Do
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/26/world/europe/in-spy-uproar-everyone-does-it-just-wont-do.html?_r=0&pagewanted=all

As I said here (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023937555), it's interesting that this started in 2002 under Bush, and ended early in the Obama Presidency when it was discovered, but somehow it's just becoming an issue. Wonder why?

[Shampoyeto]

4. France, Germany And Brazil Have Surveillance Agencies Too

No kidding!

Here's the problem. I didn't ask Marshall to tell us whether these countries have surveillance agencies, too.

[ProSense]

6. Feel free to ignore the facts.

Also the program in question started under Bush and was ended by the Obama administration three years ago.

[malaise]

3. I'm betting they're all spying on Obama n/t

[Shampoyeto]

8. "I'm betting"

Now that's an argument. At least you say your source is an internal "bet", unlike Marshall who stated it as a fact.

[joeybee12]

5. Josh Marshall is a joke...

I never read him, only did a little a long time ago, and I find it amusing that people think he actually has access to anyone or anythign important. He was fairly homophobic too for quite some time.

[Rex]

22. I remember him from the AOLchat days, a puffed up ego

and nothing upstairs in the brain region. I see he is still the same, hasn't changed one bit.

[OregonBlue]

52. I disagree. TPM has pretty in-depth reporting and seems to get it right most of the time.

One of the better informed sites around with intelligent discussions.

[jeff47]

7. Half of the NSA is for securing US communication

So....either that money is utterly wasted, or lots of other countries are spying on us too.

Given that there is an actual history (Spying on the US by France leaked in the 1990s, for example), it's pretty unlikely that that effort is all waste. And when there was a large story about the NSA fortifying a smartphone for Obama's use, that kinda indicates it's happening too.

[Adrahil]

9. If they aren't spying on us, they are idiots.

And if they aren't, that's their problem. If I'm POTUS, I want to know as much as a I can.... and that includes as much about our allies as I can find out.

That's what spies are for.

Snowden is a spy and traitor.

[Shampoyeto]

10. What do you mean "if'? Didn't Marshall tell us they ARE doing it?

Why do you doubt him?

[Adrahil]

11. I am confident they are.

There is a reason that whenever I have travel abroad for work, I am debriefed about my contacts, even when visiting allies.

[Shampoyeto]

12. You need to tell the NSA

So they take the appropriate measures to end the spying.

[jeff47]

36. 1/2 of the NSA is information security.

They are already taking measures to end the spying.

[Shampoyeto]

44. tell me more. they want to end Germany's spying on US leaders?

How specific. When did it begin? Your sources are great.

[jeff47]

45. Not the claim you were making.

Your claim was that the NSA was not blocking any spying.

[Shampoyeto]

51. yes, it was the claim i made

A few posts above I spoke about the countries accused by Marshall of spying on US leaders. Our allies, that is. If you think I was talking about China or Haiti, you are off track.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. You telling us this might violate your security agreement and clearance

[Adrahil]

14. No, this is public knowledge and published in standard security training.... nothing secrety.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. I am sure you telling us this is allowed too

Things have changed, a lot.

[Adrahil]

17. ? It's standard stuff. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Nope it is not

But now I shall proceed to put you on ignore.

Feel free to have the last word.

[SidDithers]

35. And there it is...

Sid

[jeff47]

37. Yes, it really is standard stuff.

Oh wait...You iggy'ed me long ago when you couldn't back up another one of your assertions.

[Adrahil]

39. Yeah, don't bother actually having a discussion or anything....

And yes, it's absolutely bog standard stuff on the same level as "don't divulge classified information to unauthorized persons."

[randome]

23. Damn! Usually you have to piss someone off more than this to be put on the prized Iggy List!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Adrahil]

57. <Shrug> Some people only want to hear people who agree with them on everything. nt

[GeorgeGist]

56. With friends like you ...

[Adrahil]

58. Well, I'm not a Pollyanna.

If you think even our closest allies don't have their own interests and act on them, then you're very naive. They DO have their in interests, and our leaders need to know what they are doing. The only allies we DON'T spy on are part of the Five Eyes agreement.

[el_bryanto]

19. I like Josh Marshall and Talking Points Memo

Think they have done invaluable work on the issues surrounding the Government Shut Down and the Debt Ceiling Crisis.

How many of our own are we required to eat?

Bryant

[Shampoyeto]

24. Josh, you're good at covering economic issues, so go ahead and make stuff up about spying

It doesn't work that way.

My complaint is narrow. Focused on one thing: What does Josh Marshall know about US leaders being spied by X or Y country?
I don't want to eat him. I want to know the answer to the question above.

[randome]

28. None of us 'knows' anything. Even Marshall is putting his opinion out there.

Disagreement is one thing. But why castigate someone for having an opinion?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Shampoyeto]

29. it was not an opinion

He said US leaders are being spied on by our allies. Stated as fact.

[randome]

31. It was a 3 paragraph blurb with his by-line, not a story with facts and figures.

Headlined 'TPM Editor's Blog'.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Shampoyeto]

33. Factual claims dont necessarily have to be accompanied by figures

I can't believe I am explaining that to someone.

[randome]

40. I edited my original post. The article is headlined 'TPM Editor's Blog'. It's his opinion.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Shampoyeto]

42. That is not the article's headline

That's the name of the blog.

[randome]

46. Okay, okay, poor wording on my part. It's still a blog post.

A similar phrase to keep in mind is when someone says 'Nobody does that anymore.' In that context, 'nobody' does not reflect a literal 'nobody'.

And saying other countries spy on us -without, as you pointed out, facts and figures- is pretty much considered to be a given. At least by me.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[el_bryanto]

54. I think in the context of an editorial

One can take as read that this is his opinion. It's a pretty sound one.

Bryant

[Broward]

21. He's been carrying water for this administration since day one.

[bigtree]

25. doesn't excuse any US spying or equivalize it all

. . . but it would be naive to assume that it doesn't occur.

[SamYeager]

27. Bottom line, if they have the technical capability, they are doing it. n/t

[Shampoyeto]

32. If thats so, then marshall KNOWS they have the capability

Because he said they are spying on US leaders. But you said "if". Why doubt Marshall?

[SamYeager]

47. France, Germany, the UK all have the capability, ergo they are doing it.

Not so sure about the likes of Turkey, Brazil, etc.

[Shampoyeto]

48. How do you know that? nt

[SamYeager]

49. They have the same access to high technology as we do.

Most technological advances do not occur in the US.

[Shampoyeto]

50. Where did you read that? nt

[SamYeager]

53. I've been working in technology for thirty years n/t

[LanternWaste]

30. Have you written Mt Marshall at TPM?

Have you written Mt Marshall at TPM?

Seems the first and most obvious way to get a question answered. Although, I suppose we could simply get righteously angry about a question we never posed to him... which may be more fun and entertaining, but less forthright in and of itself.

[Shampoyeto]

34. yes, on twitter. i was gonna comment under his article, but surprise surprise

No comments allowed.

[LanternWaste]

41. I believe there is an email for the publication to which concerns may be made.

I believe there is an email for the publication to which concerns may be made.

Seems that would be the most valid and obvious place to begin... asking him, rather than random posters on a wholly different site/server to answer a question you have of him, that is,.

[Shampoyeto]

43. of course you will say the obvious place is the one i didn't use

Not being able to explain why Josh made his baseless claim, you talk about contact methods. How substantive!

[doxyluv13]

55. Charlie Rose, Jr.

LanternWaste, I do think the foibles of a major Democratic website are a proper concern for interested DU members.

I've been reading TPM a long time. Josh has always had a basic orientation of Clintonite/DLC. and a basic personality of suck-uppy to power/wealth. I don't have a problem with that, tho I wish he was more progressive. The main problem with him is he's not a very interesting writer on, or perceptive observer of, politics. TPM as a whole has some value on electoral issues but don't go there expecting original thoughts or insights. The other writers there are mostly pretty good, but with Josh making all the big calls it sometimes comes off as a vanity project.

[struggle4progress]

38. After WWII and the Cold War, no competent intelligence service would wait until a conflict broke out

to begin keeping its intercept and code-breaking abilities as up-to-date as possible

One clear lesson from twentieth century conflicts is that allies today can become enemies tomorrow

The prewar work of Polish cryptologists on the German enigma codes, and of American military cryptologists on Japanese codes, provided critical advantages in WWII

Such advantages are hard-won and easily lost

There's no reason to think a high-school drop-out like Snowden, with a handful of community-college credit hours, or a libertarian ideologue like Greenwald, with a background in corporate law or porn-industry consulting and a history of nuisance lawsuits, who gained attention as a misleading columnist, would have developed the background and expertise to understand in any detail what is involved in intercept and code-breaking work or protection of the assets obtained thereby

The NSA, of course, is unlikely to inform the world accurately about its capabilities: to do so would immediately nullify any of its accomplishments

[ieoeja]

59. Israel, for one, has been caught spying on us many times. n/t