We'd be better off if Obama WAS a Marxist.

[Ken Burch]

Let's leave discussions of electoral viability out of this. They aren't the point in this thread.

And obviously, he's not(and it was always silly for anybody to ever say that he was).

And let's be clear...I mean a Marxist, not a Marxist-Leninist(the term Stalin invented to turn his bloodsoaked perversion of Marx and Lenin's ideas-not that Lenin was a saint, but he wasn't THAT much of a psycho compared to "Uncle Joe" and his acolytes, although Lenin was to blame for giving Stalin the structural tools needed to carry out his plans)a Marxist being a person who agrees with Marx's original call for a genuinely socialist and genuinely DEMOCRATIC society.

If Obama WAS a Marxist, and had an actual legislative majority in place to carry out his program, we'd have

1)A fuil-employment economy:

2)A properly funded social welfare system for those who did end up needing help(especially children, the elderly, and the physically and mentally challenged)INCLUDING a universal public healthcare program

3)A foreign policy based on peace and reconciliation rather than "defending our 'national interests'&quot which are always simply the interests of the rich)

4)Democratic control of the means of production and democratic workplace management(with co-ops as part of the deal)

5)Access for all to the means of artistic creation and personal self-expression.

6)A media that actually reported the news, rather than simply acting as propagandists for the corporate order.

That's what we'd have if Obama was ACTUALLY a Marxist.

What's not to like?

(And, if he were actually a Muslim, at least we wouldn't have usury...)

Just thought it should be said.

[JI7]

1. there is still the republican controlled house he would have to deal with

[Ken Burch]

2. I included an assumption, in the OP, that he had a Congress he could work with.

I wasn't discussing how it would go with Obama having to face the Boehnerhaus.

[stillcool]

3. if I were President..

I would take advantage of executive orders, usurp Congress and pass my own laws. And then I'd be dead.

[1000words]

4. Would there be borscht?

Not much of a beet fan. The copious amounts of vodka would be pretty sweet, though.

[Ken Burch]

8. Cute.

You could make borscht, but you'd be free to eat whatever ELSE you wanted.

Again, Marxism is NOT Marxist-Leninism, and it doesn't have to have anything at all to do with the Soviet Union.

[1000words]

15. Sorry, my post was intended to be good-natured

[Ken Burch]

27. Not meaning to be harsh in response...misread your intent.

btw, you could make yourself some borscht right now. And they STILL eat it in Russia-even though the place is run by "White Russian" types now.

[1000words]

28. Pass ... But "White Russian" gives me a cracking idea!

The Dude imbibes.

[immoderate]

5. Why a "full-employment economy?" That's crazy.

With automation, simply speaking, a small minority of people can accomplish all the work that needs to be done. For example, in a few years there won't be human taxi drivers. Individuals perform tasks that occupied huge masses, and that power is growing exponentially.

Moreover, to create unnecessary tasks to employ people, will lead to destruction of resources that we, as a society, will need to preserve.

--imm

[Ken Burch]

6. because of the damage unemployment does to people.

Also, we could find a way to make sure that, if mundane tasks could be taken care of by machines or 'bots, that everyone would be paid to do work that was actually creative and fulfilling.

[immoderate]

11. Unemployment doesn't damage people. Being broke does.

A society organized with automation in mind, and with people's basic needs fulfilled, will not have to worry much about dreaming up busy-work for them.

The problem with work is it's destructive. And there won't be enough to go around. Although in some sense, we aren't too far apart either.

--imm

[Ken Burch]

13. drudging, disrespected, meaningless work is destructive.

If not work, than at least everybody would be given the chance to actually put their efforts into what they genuinely feel to be their own true purpose in life(something that never happened in any Marxist-Leninist society, btw, which is why what I'm saying here is nothing in common with any endorsement of the Soviet era).

The real point is, no one would be discarded and disrespected. No one would be considered valueless.

[immoderate]

18. We agree on main point. But citing "Marxist-Leninism" is a straw man.

I'm quite sure Marx would have nothing to do with Lenin.

--imm

[Ken Burch]

20. That was what I was trying to say.

When people on the right say "Marxism", they usually mean what the Stalinists got up to. I was trying to clarify the massive distinction.

If Marx had come back to life and showed up in Moscow during Stalin's era, Stalin would have had him shot.

[immoderate]

21. Question is: Who would Stalin NOT have had shot?

As it were...

--imm

[Ken Burch]

24. uh...himself?...

(...well, depending how crazy he was that week...)

[socialist_n_TN]

16. With a planned economy, if we could cover everybody's needs on.........

20 hours a week, we would. That would probably be the end result of full employment, 20 hours or so a week. And if you wanted to work more, I don't think there would be a problem with that.

[immoderate]

19. I'm with you. I have heard estimates that society's needs could be met with a 10 hour week.

But we are in the same arena.

--imm

[Ken Burch]

33. Also, a shorter work week would mean full employment.

A lot of people want to work, want to have, if nothing else, somewhere to go each day and some purpose to fulfill. Few people, in my experience, really enjoy total idleness.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

7. and unicorns. don't forget the unicorns

[Ken Burch]

38. Ok...here ya go...

[Taverner]

9. Yes, yes we would

But he's not - he's a Right leaning Centrist and corporatist

[Ken Burch]

10. Well, yeah, I was aware of that.

n/t.

[Taverner]

12. IT sucks when we lose. But when we lose when we win? Sucks worse.

[gopiscrap]

14. I agree

[socialist_n_TN]

17. Remember Trotsky? The CLASSIC Marxist......

and the Marxist road not taken. His tendency he called Bolshevik-Leninist because it was based on the principles of the Bolshevik Party.

Thanks for the thread Ken.

[Ken Burch]

26. I also think of people like James Connolly and Rosa Luxemburg-and John MacLean in Scotland

People should look their stories up, and read about what THEY stood for.

[brooklynite]

22. You seem very confident...

...considering you have no evidence from an actual political system to prove your claims.

[Ken Burch]

36. Well, everyone who ever proposed any sort of genuine, transformational change

had to be confident that what hadn't been done before might be doable in the future.

"progressives" who don't believe that should just become conservatives and be done with it.

You defeat yourself when you assume that the future can only be a repeat of the past.

[socialist_n_TN]

37. Personally, I think that IF the USA actually became......

Marxist, it would take out the BIGGEST and most rabid anti-socialist force in the world for the last century of so. Which would actually ALLOW a socialist style system to develop normally and without being undermined 24/7, overtly and covertly, militarily and economically, by the capitalist bully boyz. I wonder what that would be like?

[Initech]

23. Psst! Nobody tell the teabaggers what true Marxism is!

[Ken Burch]

25. ...and be careful about telling them what "teabagging" is, too. n/t.

[Rex]

29. K&R

for pissing off all the Right people!

[Ken Burch]

32. ...many of whom are making their appearances in this very thread, I see.

[bobduca]

34. wow my ignore list is working overtime!

[Rex]

35. Then Glenn Beck would finally have something to shit about.

Can you imagine his reaction if Obama really was a Marxist?

He would go from this;


To this;
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
V

[Jamaal510]

30. If Obama were a true Marxist,

he would've never gotten elected in the first place. Moderates are the majority in America, while self-proclaimed liberals barely make up 20% of the population.

[Ken Burch]

31. As I said, the OP called on people to put "electability" out of their minds here.

And as far as that goes, a lot of people CALL themselves "moderates", but take positions on the issues that aren't moderate at all, but are, in many cases(such as the continued massive majority support for single-payer healthcare)quite liberal or even radical.

Americans use terms like "moderate", "centrist", or even "conservative" in some cases as short-hand for "common sense" or "practical", rather than as actual ideological markers.