Thank you, Dennis, for everything.

[Ken Burch]

They may have forced you out of Congress tonight(your successor will be adequate, if far more docile and obedient to the leadership) but you've fought the good fight for over thirty years now, and will find some way to keep fighting it.

You were willing to be unpopular, you spoke and still speak truth to power, when too many wanted that truth silenced, and you spoke for the poor and the workers when none of the leaders of our party wanted them mentioned.

You spoke for peace when no one else in Congress would. You spoke against torture and for openness when others didn't have the courage. You were the only genuine progressive in TWO Democratic presidential campaigns, and huge amounts of money and media invective were used to stop you. Yet you carried on.

Lines were drawn to doom you by the other party this year, but you remain a hero to millions.

Thanks for all you've said, stood for, and done.

And remember...while one battle may be lost...the struggle continues!

[Major Nikon]

1. He may not be out of congress long, if at all

Kucinich has a national following so he could easily pop up in another state and run for congress there. I'm not sure where every state is on their Democratic Party primaries and what their rules are regarding residency, but it may be possible for him to even run in this election cycle. At the very least I expect he will turn up somewhere else next election cycle.

I'm no fan of Kucinich, but I think it's safe to say this isn't the last we've seen of him in congress.

[jeff47]

58. After his concession speech, he's done.

He'd have to win among Democrats who are not his fans, and his speech was an attack on them.

Had a chance to be noble, instead went bitter and angry. Not gonna play well. Combine that with the appearance of carpetbagging and he's not going to win.

[eridani]

2. And you preserved public electrical power in Cleveland

--even though it cost you your first political career.

[Ken Burch]

9. I bet there's STILL a ton of private utility money

that gets donated to anybody who runs against Dennis.

[newspeak]

23. some people don't know that

he fought against the energy companies for the people and he took a hit. he fought for the people and they bought into the corporate shite against their own interest. And the people keep shooting themselves in the foot and believe anything their masters want them to believe.

he hasn't done anything in congress some would say. But, the truth is he put somethings out there that were for our protection and our interest. So, what if it didn't pass. It's not a damn football game where winning only counts. arbitrating away things that help the majority of americans can be more damaging to all of us. He fought for labor.

Yes, there's a following and I am one of them. Just one more voice silenced for the people.

[Cleita]

3. I'm in mourning.

Thank you Dennis for everything.

[cyclezealot]

64. We lost a strong voice for some milquetoast

Who more often than not will do as told.. Kucinich had every reason to be pized. Not at the voters of the new 9th , but at Kaptur.. Her ad comparing Kucinich to Jimmy Dimoura was below the belt. I had expected more from her, but she failed the test. She'll never get anything from us , but our disgust.

[loudsue]

157. I guess I've been away from DU too much lately. I had NO IDEA

that someone would primary Kucinich. This totally sucks. A true liberal, and now he's out?

I've lost all faith in the corporatized democratic party.

[Capn Sunshine]

168. He wasn't primaried. He lost his district to redistricting

And Kapturs district was the closest progressive district available.

[sabrina 1]

198. I lost a lot of respect for Kaptur when she ran that ad. Dennis avoided saying anything

personal about her or running ads like that. I got most of his promotional emails and you would not have even known who he was running against as he stuck to the issues and did not make it personal.

His voting record from a progressive pov is far superior to hers. And she does take a lot more money from Corps than he ever did.

I've always liked her, but as Grayson, Kennedy and Barney Frank among others said, Dennis was one of the strongest Progressive voices in Congress. And they should know, they worked with him.

[cyclezealot]

227. Before the primary

I had liked Kaptur. Now she is scum.. You are as honorable as your lowest action.. Before I was conflicted over Kaptur/Kucinich.. . Not now..
I am proud to say I helped to pay for this ad. Would you not know it, in the recent primary DK took the high road... I have a feeling after Jan 20, we will see more of DK at the Occupy Movement among other actions.. See you on the barricades Dennis..

.
Dennis' Prayer for America.

&feature=player_embedded#!

[cyclezealot]

231. Defense spending and Kucinich..

Kucinich: ‘Defeat Doesn’t Have Power Over Me’ He will be lost..

.
http://www.truthdig.com/podcast/item/kucinich_defeat_doesnt_have_power_over_me_20120309/
.
http://www.truthdig.com/podcast/audio/kucinich_defeat_doesnt_have_power_over_me_20120309/

[chknltl]

4. I hope he comes to Tacoma

Washington State's 6th District is about to lose congressman Norm Dicks to retirement. Norm has been darn good to us for a long time, he will be missed. That said, being able to brag about having Dennis Kuccinich as my congressman....

[eridani]

13. I'm thinking that he'd have to hang out for a couple of years to get to know the

--local systems and people. Things are different out here. I see him as a possible replacement for McDermott when he retires.

[cyclezealot]

83. Don't feel alone..

Particularly in a lot of University towns.. We could easily start a bidding war to see who gets Dennis Kucinich..

[Matariki]

97. And we're losing Jay Inslee to his Governor bid

Maybe Kuchinich would like the north end of Seattle

[EFerrari]

5. Any day now.

[Ken Burch]

8. Thanks for that

n/t.

[G_j]

54. yep

[marasinghe]

173. yes.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

6. I'm so sad to read this.

The loss of Kucinich is a loss for idealists and dreamers. So what.....? Well, there is government,.... and then there is leadership. Kucinich was a leader, not a defender of the status quo, but an inspiration to what a county and people should aspire to.

[jsmirman]

7. Amen

and as an animal advocate... it's a sad night.

[Sherman A1]

10. This can be a positive

Dennis is now free from the work in Congress to move into other areas & issues. Yes, he will lose one platform, yet he may develop more from which to speak. Do any of us really believe he will simply fade away?

[jsmirman]

18. I do like to think this way

and hope and expect it will be the case.

But I can't help but be sad when Congress loses a voice of conscience.

[robinlynne]

137. and he is one of us. OF THE PEOPLE. BY THE PEOPLE. FOR THE PEOPLE.

[JohnnyRingo]

11. Don't write him off yet.

This is a set back, and I predict we'll hear from him again soon.

He's never been the type to sail off into the sunset. Even after he was unfairly run out of the Cleveland mayor's office, he bounced right back

[eridani]

14. After 15 years, unfortunately. Fortunately, he is much better known nationally now

Throwing his first career out was an unbelievably brave thing to do for a poor kid who had no fallbacks like corporate think tanks and law firms to join. He was only marginally employed off and on for that time.

[malaise]

12. Very well said

Rec

[man4allcats]

15. Thanks, Dennis.

I wish there were more like you. Hope you'll be continuing the fight again soon. Best Wishes.

[cascadiance]

16. If he wants to be a governor, I sense a lot of "openings" he can run for (Wisconsin, Michigan, etc.)

... with a lot of the recalls on the docket in many places.

If Feingold doesn't enter the race in Wisconsin, perhaps he can still get in that race. Michigan's recall later might offer better timing for him not to have to rush to get in that race.

Ohio needs to pass a bill to allow Kasich to be recalled, so not sure whether that's his best option, though the more obvious one to work with his former constituents.

[HughBeaumont]

17. Fat chance on the recall of Kat$hit . . .

. . . the state legislature is Republican-controlled, so we're stuck with that asshole.

[Ken Burch]

223. recall would be by initiative, though, wouldn't it?

n/t.

[MineralMan]

19. For someone to come into a state and run for Governor,

winning is a very long shot. Like most states, Wisconsin has a lot of state pride. Someone coming into the state to try to run for the Governor's office won't have a chance. Kucinich is an excellent Congressman for his district in Ohio, but he's not well known in Wisconsin by the majority of Democrats there. In reality, most won't have heard of him, since most people do not follow politics very closely at all.

Kucinich will have the same issues if he attempts to run for the vacant House seat in Washington state. Most voters there won't have heard of him enough to form any sort of opinion. Here on DU, we know about Dennis Kucinich. In most of the country, and among most Democratic voters, he has virtually no name recognition.

DU is not representative of Democratic voters. It never has been. We tend to discuss issues from a different perspective than the majority of Democrats around the country.

[sabrina 1]

199. Kucinich discusses issues that matter to the people. New candidates enter races every

election cycle, if he ran in a progressive district he would win. His problem here was that the Repubs wanted to get rid of him and redistricted in order to do so. Not to mention, the party to whom he has always been loyal, rarely supports true progressives anymore. They back the DLCers or anyone but progressives.

He's lost before, it happens, so I expect he will run again and win. He was the most popular Democrat among the grass-roots from 2000 to 2004 when the smear campaigns began against him from the right wing of the Dem Party. He's way too honest for them.

[MineralMan]

232. There's political reality to consider.

The Governor of a state is virtually always a long-time resident of that state. Voters will always look askance at an outsider who shows up to run for the Governor's seat, regardless of issues. The suggestion was that Kucinich try to run for Governor of Wisconsin. Quite frankly, he would lose in a landslide. Few Wisconsonites have ever even heard of Dennis Kucinich, and they know nothing about him if they have heard of him.

Then, consider that Wisconsin recently elected a Republican as Governor. While they probably regret that now, it's a clear indication that Wisconsin is not a progressive state, overall.

Add the two things together, and a gubernatorial contest in Wisconsin with Kucinich as the Democratic candidate would result in a massive loss.

You like Dennis. I like Dennis. If he were to run as Governor of Minnesota, though, I'd work very hard for a primary candidate who actually lived in Minnesota and was a good, progressive Democrat, because Kucinich could not possibly win that election. You and I are not typical voters. Who we like is irrelevant. There are much more general considerations than our opinion about the candidate's position on issues.

[sabrina 1]

236. I don't know why anyone would suggest he, or any other outsider, would run for Gov. of Wisc.

It will be difficult enough for a Wisc Democrat to win in that state.

I do not think he should run right now for anything. Politicians often lose races and then come back later to win again. If he takes two years off he could decide whether he wants to go a different state, as many of them do, or not. But he seems very attached to his own state so I would imagine he would prefer to run there if at all.

It's a been a tough period for him, the entire Bush era, fighting against Bush's horrendous policies often with not much support from his own party, and his own personal losses which must have been very difficult to deal with also.

He has earned a break, imo and time to spend with his family before he gets into another campaign, if that what he decides to do.

[MineralMan]

237. The post you replied to of mine was directed at a DUer

who suggested just that. So, I replied about the subject that was raised. I'm not sure why you entered the subthread without reading the first post in it, but that's the explanation.

[sabrina 1]

238. I read the subthread and responded to your comment to more or less agree with you.

That I do not know why anyone would suggest that he run in Wisc.

[RZM]

26. I can't see that happening

You can sometimes come into a new state and get elected to Congress. But governor? I just don't see it. He'd have an uphill battle getting elected governor of Ohio, let alone of another state.

It would be pretty tough to move into a new state and say: 'I want to govern you.'

[bigwillq]

20. Thank you, Dennis.

K and R

[ljm2002]

21. True words and well spoken...

...Dennis Kucinich is one of the few principled politicians IMO.

I was sad to see him and Marcy Kaptur pitted against one another in this primary. It happened because of redistricting, and they both chose to run in the newly drawn district. So we already knew that one good, liberal candidate would lose this race. As much as I am sorry to see Dennis lose a contest, it seems to me he will have more alternatives going forward than she would have if she had lost. I do hope to hear more from him in the future!

[tk2kewl]

22. K&R

[bvar22]

24. The outlook for Progressives/Liberals in the "New Democrat" Party is NOT good.

*Wellstone....KIA

*McKinney......attacked, discredited, marginalized, expelled

*Dean...... attacked, discredited, fired, banished

*Weiner..... discredited, expelled, banished

*Grayson.... isolated, marginalized, abandoned, exiled

*Spitzer..... discredited, expelled, banished

*Feingold.... isolated, abandoned, marginalized, exiled

*Kucinich.... attacked, marginalized, redistricted, abandoned....

How much help did the Party Leadership give to these good, solid Progressive Democrats when they needed it?
In 2010, how much help did the Party Leadership give to Blue Dogs like Blanche Lincoln, and Republicans like Arlen Specter?

With the loss of Dennis Kucinich, the Working Class Party of FDR/LBJ lurches another step
to the conservative, Big Business, Authoritarian Right.
Who is left in this Party I once loved that speaks for me?
Who will speak these Truths?

*That Medicare for ALL is not only possible,
but Cheaper,

*That deregulating International Trade ("Free Trade&quot was BAD for the American Working Class,

*That the Invasion of Iraq was a WAR CRIME and the people responsible should be prosecuted,

*That our War Machine is Out-of-Control and killing people in places we have NO BUSINESS being in,

*That our insane Military Spending is taking the food out of the mouths of our hungry children,
and the roofs from over their heads

*That we shouldn't trust our elections to privately owned computers.
that we CAN have hand counted paper ballots,

*That we really should join the International Community, join the ICC,
and ban land mines

*That we CAN turn off the Money Machine in Washington,
and return our Congress to the People

*That there really are POOR PEOPLE in our country that need our help

Who will speak these Truths?
Who is left in this Party I once loved that speaks for me?




[font color=firebrick][center]”Unlike the other candidates, I am not funded by those corporate interests.
I owe them no loyalty, and they have no influence over me or my policies.” ---Dennis Kucinich [/font]
[/center]

[KamaAina]

31. You forgot Ned Lamont in CT

who had to watch as the party brass backed LIEberman even AFTER he lost the primary and went indy.

[hfojvt]

39. what about future Senator Tammy Baldwin?

Isn't she a progressive? What about Minnesota Governor Mark Dayton?

[rhett o rick]

110. I am going to guess your point. Because you named a couple of progressives

it negates his post? Progressives are being targeted by Republicans and not supported by the New Conserva-Dems. As we lose progressives and gain disgruntled conservatives, the party becomes more and more conservative. Say goodbye to Medicare for all.

[dflprincess]

160. Dayton ran outside the party establishment

and against its endorsed candidate in the primary.

The DFL we have today is not the DFL that endorsed Wellstone - if it were we'd have a better senator than Amy Klobuchar.

Even if the Democrats take back Congress, I don't have a whole lot of hope that the "new Democrats" will do a whole lot for us.

[Hun Joro]

51. I wish I could rec your post!

[rhett o rick]

90. I second that. nm

[jsmirman]

101. I third that

I don't know if I'm in agreement word for word, but I know that I favor the general sentiment and most of your points.

Kucinich is a man of conscience. Those (men or women) are in short supply.

[Jim Lane]

59. I agree with your list of truths but let me add a couple.

*We can continue our proud tradition of protecting civil liberties, and not let a few terrorists panic us into surrenders like the "PATRIOT" Act.

*We must take the protection of our environment seriously, rather than allowing such compromises as the expansion of offshore drilling.

There are, alas, powerful forces in the Democratic Party that cower in fear before the right wing -- "We can't let them say that we're weak on national security!" "We can't let them say that we're against jobs and economic development!"

The progressive heroes you name have run afoul of these entrenched interests. We have a long way to go to take back our party.

[jeff47]

61. So...you know absolutely nothing about Kaptur then?

Good idea to slander a woman you don't know anything about. Like her membership in the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

[bvar22]

68. Slander? LOL.

I didn't mention Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur.

Do you knees always jerk like this?
If so, you should see someone.



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[jeff47]

70. Your post claims Kaptur's victory is a win for "the conservative, Big Business, Authoritarian Right"

It isn't. The win was in the Ohio state elections in 2010 which let them redistrict two liberals into one district.

Also:

How much help did the Party Leadership give to these good, solid Progressive Democrats when they needed it?

So....the party leadership should have helped defeat Kaptur?

[EFerrari]

72. That's a perverse reading of bvar's post. n/t

[bvar22]

87. I'm making no reference to Congresswoman Kaptur what-so-ever,

and speaking of the overall make-up of the Democratic Party.

As with Obama's Supreme Court nominees,
the overall make-up of the Supreme Court in now MORE conservative than before his appointments.
That is what happens when a Liberal, like Kucinich and Justice Stevens, are replaced with people not so Liberal.
With Kucinich gone from the House, the House moves one step further to the Right.
Case Closed.

As for your last tortured, illogical twist,

"So....the party leadership should have helped defeat Kaptur?"

Almost every statement that begins with "So, ..." is a Strawman Logical Fallacy,
as your post aptly demonstrates.

I made no such assertion.

For your education, when you compose a post that begins with "So, (what you are saying is)...",
check to make sure you are not inventing something that no one has said.
No charge.




[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font][/center]
[center][/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22 at the Labor Day Picnic in St Paul
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

[Ken Burch]

127. He was talking about my OP

Look, I'll back Kaptur in the fall(her opponent is Joe the Freakin' Plumber, for God's sake), but she will obviously be a swing to the right. She isn't interested in working for peace and she's weak on choice issues.

I'm a party unity guy, but progressives DO have a right to see this as a loss.

[rhett o rick]

92. Your venom is misdirected. nm

[Ken Burch]

116. She wasn't involved in trying to stop the Iraq War.

And she's weaselly on choice. She's clearly to Dennis' right and there's no reason she was preferable to him.

[mikelgb]

79. thank you for your post

[Arkana]

247. This is crap.

*Wellstone....KIA
How is this the Democratic Party's fault?

*McKinney......attacked, discredited, marginalized, expelled
Literally blamed Jews for the fact that she lost an election. I fail to see why Democrats were wrong to back away. Just because the right won't back away from their crazies does not mean we shouldn't.

*Dean...... attacked, discredited, fired, banished
Attacked by Republicans and the media, never discredited, he QUIT--he wasn't fired, and he wasn't banished. I want evidence to support this theory.

*Weiner..... discredited, expelled, banished
LITERALLY POSTED PICTURES OF HIS DINGLE ON THE INTERNET AND THEN TRIED TO COVER IT UP WITH A SERIES OF INCREASINGLY RIDICULOUS LIES. HOW ARE YOU NOT GETTING THIS.

*Grayson.... isolated, marginalized, abandoned, exiled
Alan Grayson dug his own grave when he decided to tell lies about his Christian Taliban opponent in his reelection campaign. Seriously, there was so much TRUTH to work with. Why did he lie?

*Spitzer..... discredited, expelled, banished
This guy ran on a platform of law and order and got busted for doinking high-class prostitutes. HE FUCKED UP. And I would hardly call his current situation "banished"--he contributes on CNN and Salon.com.

*Feingold.... isolated, abandoned, marginalized, exiled
The fuck? He lost an election. Yes, it sucks, but Democrats didn't sandbag Feingold. And it was his decision to stay as a professor at Marquette rather than help the Recall Scott Walker effort.

*Kucinich.... attacked, marginalized, redistricted, abandoned....
Again: HE LOST AN ELECTION. Yes, it sucks. It does not mean some vast conspiracy was at work to destroy him.

[okieinpain]

25. lol, you guys are kidding this isn't the dennis that could be president obama

because he's a true progressive. no way.

[Ken Burch]

35. Your diss would have been a bit more effective

if it had actually made sense.

[okieinpain]

43. sorry, I was in shock. just hard to believe that dennis k

could lose because he is such a true progressive. the horror. lol.

[EFerrari]

73. He lost because of Republican redistricting.

Bizarre to see anyone take pleasure in the pain of others.

[rhett o rick]

95. You are still not making any sense. As progressives are targeted for elimination

the Democratic Party moves to the right. One big tent with conservative ex-Republicans living in harmony with Conservative Democrats. The oligarchs love it and apparently so do you.

[Ken Burch]

114. Look, what is your point?

It's not as if there was no good reason to re-elect the guy.

If you're going to be so childishly contemptuous, at least say why.

He was one of the few people in Congress that stood for anything. Does that count for nothing with you? It's not like passing watered-down bills is that important.

[okieinpain]

233. just noting that there are a lot of people on this site

Last edited Fri Mar 9, 2012, 11:37 PM - Edit history (1)

that say the democratic's party should be more progressive like dennis K, and bernie sanders. well why didn't dennis get reelected if being super progressive is the way to go.

I hate to see any dem not get elected, we need more dems not less. I just wish people would be more realistic about getting there.

[Ken Burch]

234. "Why didn't dennis get reelected if being superconservative is the way to go"?

What does that even mean?

Also...you know perfectly well the only reason that Dennis lost was due to gerrymandering. There's no way you can take that as a reflection on his performance as a Congressman or on his views. It's not as if Dennis would've made it if only he'd been a centrist. It wouldn't have been worth re-electing him as a DLC'er, anyway.

[okieinpain]

243. sorry used wrong word, tried to hide page from workmate. lol.

[catrose]

27. Thank you, Dennis, and gassho

It always raised my spirits when you'd introduce a bill that made sense. Blessings in your next endeavor.

[Gregorian]

28. Dennis Kucinich speaks for me. One of the very few.

It's sad that there are so few. But it is the result of how the people wish to be represented, regardless of how it all happens. Not many Americans are participating in what should be a great country.

[dionysus]

29. and in 30 years, accomplished..........

.....

...
..
.



.






.

[Ken Burch]

34. Changing consciousness is more important than passing watered-down bills

Last edited Wed Mar 7, 2012, 10:53 PM - Edit history (1)

It's not like somebody who worked with the leadership would get anything progressive done.

The quiet, polite, obedient types are useless.

And incremental change isn't progressive at all.

[Tarheel_Dem]

46. "passing watered-down bills". You mean like the healthcare bill Dennis fought & later signed onto?

[dionysus]

50. is that lil feller shrugging at me? why, thems... fightin' woids!

PUT UP YER DUKES11!!!




PS, if you recall, Dennis was "forced" to sign the bill after evil obama took him on that plane ride.. remember?

[Tarheel_Dem]

56. That was one helluva plane ride, wasn't it?

I keep waiting for Dennis' fanbase to recognize that it's not everyone else, IT'S DENNIS! They keep blaming everyone else for Kooch's failure to launch. He had as much access to the voters as Marci did, and she beat his ass SOUNDLY! Marci has a record of bringing home the bacon for her district, and she was rewarded for it. Kooch? Not so much.

[Ken Burch]

118. Dennis did nothing to deserve your spite

Watering down a bill is no better than defeating it. Weak bills aren't worth a damn.

You just hate the guy for having principles.

Jerry Garcia would have supported Dennis.

[dionysus]

126. i don't hate anybody. you're projecting again. it's not my fault he couldn't pass a bill.

[Ken Burch]

128. Why are you so obsessed with passing bills?

No meaningful bill was passed by ANY Dem in the 1994-2006 period. And it's not worth passing bills if they have to be watered down to nothing.

Passing bills isn't THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS.

None of the bills that WERE passed by Congress between 1994 and 2006 were of any value to progressives anyway.

Is there a reason why you can't give that point a rest?

[dionysus]

130. because it's their job. nt

[Ken Burch]

134. Their job is to represent their constituents

Nobody in Congress "does their job" by passing diluted bills. Diluted bills are always pointless. Yes, you can pass weak bills, but there's no value to it.

It's not like Dennis' district would have been better served by having somebody there who always settled for half-a-slice, like YOU would prefer.

And I doubt that Kaptur got all that much stuff passed after 1994 either. NO DEMOCRAT did, at least not until after 2006-and after that, only a little stuff got passed due to the filibuster and(up until 2008)Bush's capacity to veto.

All a true progressive COULD do in those years was speak out. It wasn't worth trying to pass anything through a right-wing Congress.

[dionysus]

136. i'm sorry dennis' lack of results upsets you so. don't worry, he'll be just fine.

[Ken Burch]

139. He had plenty of results

He got millions of progressives to give the Democratic Party another chance after DLC'ers like you drove them away in the Nineties. You can't act like that's nothing.

It's silly for you to keep going on about bills. NO Dems got any bills passed between 1994 and 2006.

Passing bills isn't ALL THAT MATTERS.

Stop with the taunts already.

And it's not worth passing bills that aren't full-out progressive, anyway. Centrist bills are never of value.

[dionysus]

158. you may continue to make up stuff about me if it makes you feel better about his retirement.

[Ken Burch]

162. I didn't make anything up-obviously, if you're this dismissive of Dennis

You're on the right wing of this party.

It's not possible to be a progressive and take this tone.

Will you just stop posting here already?

There was no reason for you to show up and taunt. You're acting like a drunk heckler in a comedy club, and that's inappropriate in a thread that is acknowledging a defeat for all progressives.

[DevonRex]

143. Just as soon as they

beam him back up.

[url=http://www.cosgan.de/smilie.php][img][/img][/url]

[dionysus]

155. !

[Ken Burch]

147. Nobody who "got results" as a Dem in 1994-to-2006 achieved anything.

No progressive legislation at all was passed in those years.

And little progressive came of any of the "mainstream" Democratic compromises.

There's no difference between passing a watered-down bill and not passing anything.

[sabrina 1]

209. Passing bad bills while refusing to pass good bills, does seem to be their job

What exactly has Congress done for the American people over the past ten years to make their lives better?

They did what the Corps ordered them to, passed bills the Corps wrote for them, including the HC Bill.

If they had had the guts to get behind some of Kucinich's ideas this country would be in a lot better shape, millions might not have lost their homes, Banks would not have been bailed out, corruption would have been at least investigated, there would have been no Iraq War and 6, 000 US Soldiers and untold numbers of Iraqis would still be alive, not to mention so many who are maimed who would be healthy.

If just 'passing bills' is what people want, well, they got that. And all the fallout from the passage of those bills.

I'd rather Congress had just stayed home for the past decade, we would all have been better off.

[rhett o rick]

165. Why do you hate progressives? What issues do you disagree with? nm

[Ken Burch]

166. I think he's STILL mad that Dennis didn't back the watered-down health bill from the get-go

It's not enough for him that Dennis came around in the end. It's a petty grudge that should have been abandoned when the bill passed. But that's the way DLC'ers are.

[dionysus]

177. being unimpressed with dennis' lack of results doesn't mean one "hates progressives"

keep trying.

[rhett o rick]

186. Jumping into an appreciation thread and start stirring up

shite, is more than being simply "unimpressed". It appears to me that you have an agenda.
Again what issues do you have disagreements with progressives?
Are you against Medicare for all?
Do you support the Patriot Act?

Tell us where you stand on the issues. I will be more than glad to tell you.

[dionysus]

192. i would prefer single payer and i don't like the patriot act. i still think dennis was ineffectual.

i think i've explained myself clearly...


edit: dennis said the right things, but he never had to deliver on any of it, nor could he. that's my point about him. he's got great ideals, he's probably good person to hang out with. don't know what else to tell you.

here's an example. dennis calling for single payer is great. but when someone with impeccable credentials like bernie sanders admits it had maybe 5 or 10 votes in the senate, it's a moot point. calling for single payer is great, but you and i can do that. but just like dennis, we can't deliver it. so in the end, if you're doing nothing but talking, where's the value? it's not like he changed the national discourse on it. the only people paying attention are political junkies like us.

the Affordable health Care Act, or Obamacare, sucks in many ways, but has *some* good stuff in it. so at least it's progress. and it can be built upon. the exemptions are practically a backdoor into allowing states to implement their own single payer.

[Ken Burch]

205. And Dennis voted for it in the end, so why can't you let it go

that he waited until the end to say he would? Why is that unforgiveable to you?

And it's not like it would have helped Obama for Dennis to shut up about single-payer.

Nor did it help Marcy Kaptur to do anything good later that she voted for the Patriot Act. She'd have been re-elected even if she'd opposed it.

[rhett o rick]

210. I appreciate your response. But still dont understand the overwhelming need for some to

denigrate Dennis. You can say none on the left has been "effective" because they dont have the votes to get decent legislation. But w/o the left pulling toward progress, the legislation we would get would be even more watered down. The conservatives have control of our party. So I guess you are happy. We will have to keep fighting the slow slide into oligarchy.

[Ken Burch]

225. By him, Martin Luther King was ineffective

because Dr. King wasn't in Congress sponsoring the 1964 Civil Rights Act himself, and because the Poor People's March didn't lead to anything immediate in terms of helping the poor.

Or that Gandhi was ineffective because it took him thirty-six years(from the founding of the Indian Congress Party in 1912 to 1948)to win actual independence for India.

Or that Mandela was ineffective because it took him almost thirty years to get out of jail.

[Ken Burch]

190. There were no progressives that HAD victories in Congress between 1994 and 2006

And that was most of Dennis' careers. There were no progressive wins on anything, not even any meaningful reductions of damage.

OBAMA wouldn't have been effective as a Democrat in Congress in those years. Neither would Jesus.

Give it a rest.

Dennis did as well as anybody else did, and passing bills isn't everything(especially passing watered-down bills, which isn't any different than losing).

You've been asked to offer an example of somebody on our side who was "effective" compared to Dennis, and you've offered nobody. This proves your argument is bullshit.

[sabrina 1]

200. You must be even more unimpressed with Marcy Kaptur then. His record of votes,

sponsored bills, and support for progressive issues, in a much shorter time in Congress, beats hers. I like her, but her voting record on major issues of the past decade is nowhere near as good as Kucinich's. And she takes more money from Corps than he does, which may account for the differences in voting records.

[Ken Burch]

204. Basically, from what I can see with Dionysis

he just can't let it go that Dennis held out to the last before voting for what remained of Obama's HCR. He thinks that Dennis should just have given up his principles and announced at the start that he'd back whatever bill was sent up for final passage...no questions ask.

It's all about that with Dionysis....that's why he's trolling here.

[rhett o rick]

211. Their overt hatred for progressives is more transparent than they think.

They claim to want decent health care legislation but then they denigrate progressives when we fight for strong legislation. If they were true to Democratic principles they would appreciate avid progressives pulling for decent legislation even if they will settle for weak-assed (better than nothing) legislation.

[Dragonfli]

74. Yes I remember that bill when Newt was pushing it, it took a Democrat to pass the Heritage Foundatio

Insurance profit procurement act. http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2010/February/23/GOP-1993-health-reform-bill.aspx

I hated that right wing corporate profit based shite then and it still smells like excrement now.

But you are right, that was not a watered down bill, that was a bill the GOP tried to get passed for 20 years and none of the worse parts were watered down at all.

I can appreciate being effective, but don't pretend that what was passed, however effectively, is progressive, it's GOP all the way, if you want to piss down my back just don't call it rain, I feel the insult to my intelligence would be a bit over the top.

[Tarheel_Dem]

82. Your argument makes absolutely no sense in this context. Kooch "fought" it, and then turned around

and voted for it. So your post seems out of place.

[Dragonfli]

85. Because great pressure was brought to bear on him rather than on say Lieberman.

My comment, as you know but pretend not to know, was in regard to your claim that the heritage Foundation health care bill was not watered down, I agreed with you.

So yes it is in context regardless of your trying to change the subject away from the legislation you appear to be under the mistaken impression is progressive. I thought perhaps you were too young to remember the last time the corporations tried to pass this for themselves so I thought I would give you some information from some one that was politically active for over thirty years and has seen this shite before.

[Tarheel_Dem]

86. You have distorted the entirety of this subthread, so I'll let you have it. The o.p. claims that...

Dennis would never author or sign on to "watered down legislation". As many of Kooch's most supporters contend that HCR was not ideal, why did Dennis sign it? And you can scapegoat the White House, Joe Liebermann, Aliens, or whomever. The fact remains that Dennis was against it before he was for it.

Dennis is often celebrated, by his fans, as an independent progressive stalwart. How could "pressure" be brought to bear on someone who is "independent" & who "speaks truth to power"? Did they threaten to let the air out of his Big Wheel?

[Dragonfli]

88. Did I respond to the OP or your comments? do you even know the difference?

I can comment directly on what you have said which I did, that twists nothing except the way you are trying to avoid at all costs what I did respond to you with. I assume you do not know how to respond.

I did say I agreed with you that that bill wasn't watered down, perhaps you could start there.

[Tarheel_Dem]

89. You "assume" quite a bit. Maybe "30 years of activism" has taken it's toll. I have no idea....

what you're even talking about at this point. So I'll move along now. Mmmmmkay?

[Dragonfli]

91. oh hell, this will get deleted but if you can't read what is written, are you smarter than a

5th grader?

My niece is here and she understood every word and is now pushing me out of the way to research the things I wrote about.

I know she is a genius, but I thought you'd be able to keep up with her rather than feigning stupidity of all things.

[Tarheel_Dem]

93. Here's to you & your "genius" niece.

Last edited Wed Mar 7, 2012, 07:47 PM - Edit history (2)

Oh, and don't mind me, I wouldn't dare alert on your post. I find it precious.

[dionysus]

156. .

[Ken Burch]

224. No need to diss the guy's niece.

And there was no good reason for you to post in this thread. It's not as if Obama's re-election required that any pro-Kucinich thread be derailed.

Shame on you for doing a pointless, ugly thing.

[rhett o rick]

99. I am curious why your are so visciously hateful of Kucinich. The fact that he wanted

a better health care bill bothers you? I dont understand why some Democrats are so vitriolic against progressives. What issues do they support that bothers you so much?

And by the way, this emoticon is just rude.

[Tarheel_Dem]

100. I often ask the same of the Anti-Obama contingency here. They don't answer, so I won't either.

[rhett o rick]

103. Your rude emoticon doesnt bother me in the least. And your answer reeks of childishness. nm

[Tarheel_Dem]

108. I think I'll delete this. I may have gone a bit far.

[Ken Burch]

120. This thread wasn't about Obama at all.

And there was no reason for you to take it as such.

[Ken Burch]

135. I hope that bill proves to be worth it-the jury's still out on that.

It wasn't a bill Obama could use to get people fired up in 2010, because everything important was taken out of it.

And he didn't even promise to take up the fight to fix the bill if he got a Dem Congress again---which he SHOULD have been out doing every day. It's not like he had anything more important left on his agenda, after letting labor reform die. The other stuff was just side issues.

[Tarheel_Dem]

178. Guess what? Obama wasn't on the ballot in 2010. Let's see if his name on the ballot.....

makes a difference this year. We all know that Kooch's name was on the ballot, and he's outta here.

As for "labor reform" why couldn't your heroes in Congress like Kooch convince his colleagues to sign on? President Obama is one man, and I love the way his harshest critics have completely let the other branches of government off the hook in order to slam him.

And who are you to decide what's "more important"? Thank goodness the foolishness exhibited by this president' leftist critics is fairly contained to the internet.

[Ken Burch]

189. Kucinich was re-elected in 2010. It was THIS year that he was gerrymandered out

in favor of someone to his right, someone who doesn't care about peace(she's on the Armed Services Committee and never objected there to a damn dime spent for war, and nobody in her district benefits from war spending).

And Obama was the one who promised "card-check", so he had an obligation to fight as hard for that as for health care(or harder, since he really didn't do a damn thing to get healthcare through and didn't even mind that the important stuff was all removed).

And it's meaningless to say that "Obama wasn't on the ballot in 2010". The whole damn election was about Obama. He had an OBLIGATION to spend every day of the fall on the stump firing people up. And he didn't even try. He refused to accept that off-year elections are about galvanizing the base and that the "independents" don't matter in the off-year(not that the independents were demanding that Obama be to the right of the base, as far as that goes).

And this thread was never intended to be Kucinich Vs. Obama. So why did you have to show up here and trash?

Kucinich has core values. Does Obama? I'll be supporting Obama, on the lesser-evil terms we had every right to expect would NEVER be imposed again, but we were essentially promised that we wouldn't have any more elections fought on the theme of "at least we lost LESS ground".

[SomethingFishy]

36. Yeah what scumbag he is...

Holding fast to his principles and all, useless as a politician. Should have kicked him to the curb years ago to make room for someone who can get things done!

[dionysus]

48. in this example, you need to construct a sturdier strawman.

[SomethingFishy]

119. Riiiiight....

Because your post was so... accurate.

I'd list the legislation he wrote but that wouldn't matter to a person who denigrates liberals.

Have a nice life.

[dionysus]

125. yu've cut me to the bone.

[Ken Burch]

141. Go away. You have no good reason to be in this thread

You're pissing on Dennis for no good reason. NO Democrat got bills passed between 1994 and 2006. Kaptur damn sure didn't.

[Ken Burch]

121. No...you have an obligation to say why you hold Dennis in such contempt

Would you rather he kept compromising? Once you compromise, you stop BEING a progressive and stop being of any value.

Real change doesn't come through tiny increments.

[dionysus]

123. i don't hold dennis in contempt, he just never acheived any results other than talking a good game.

good guy, good politics, zero results...

[Ken Burch]

129. NO Dem achieved any results between 1994 and 2006

And it's not worth achieving "results" if they have to be centrist rather than progressive results. Centrist results are worthless.

In the '94-'06 period, no good bills at all were passed by ANY Dem. You have no superior model to offer. I don't think Kaptur got anything passed in those years either.

Passing bills isn't the only thing that matters. Speaking truth to power is equally important. Mobilizing the people is equally important. You can't reduce politics to "winning" and "losing"-that means the rich always control the game.

[G_j]

49. I posted threads soliciting help for him

of course the haters just had to glom on...

[rhett o rick]

106. Interesting. Name some politicians that you think, "can get things done". nm

[SomethingFishy]

115. Um.. that was sarcasm.

Sorry I forgot where I was. Should have added the smiley.

[rhett o rick]

133. My mistake. And yes I have a chip on my shoulder. nm

[RoccoR5955]

38. Raising awareness that not everything that the US does is good!

And that's bigger than ANYTHING anyone has done!

[Tarheel_Dem]

45. Yup. And his new constituents must have noticed. It's not enough to "speak truth to power".....

if your legislative record is that sparse. Dennis never learned to play well with others, and while that played to a small devoted group of supporters, it has never played well with the broader electorate, and his defeat last night was further proof of that.

I have nothing personal against the man, but his hero status belies his actual record of accomplishment.

[eridani]

81. It played very well for the electorate in the precincts from his old district

The new OH-09 had vastly more of Kaptur's old turf than that of Kucinich. And people voted for their old representatives pretty much down the line.

If it's all about Dennis, how come he sacrificed his first public career to keep Cleveland electrical power public?

[Tarheel_Dem]

84. How many terms has Dennis served in Congress? You're talking about something that may be...

a couple of decades old. Unfortunately, resting on those laurels didn't help him last night. Look, as I said earlier, I have nothing personal against Dennis, I just find him too Michelle Bachmann like for my tastes. He would be great as a talking head, but as a legislator he's been abysmally inept.

It's fine to "speak to truth to power" if you have a record of accomplishment, but "speaking" just for the sake of "speaking" is still just "speaking". I know his fans think that if more people got to know Dennis, they'd love him as much as they do, but I just find that hard to believe. If there's any Congress person with a high national profile, it's Kooch. But that didn't help him last night. The people of the newly drawn OH-09 have spoken, and Kooch's fanbase will just have to get over it.

[dionysus]

159. you mean like a "pretty speech"?

[Tarheel_Dem]

181. Exactly! You know how DU hates "pretty speeches"......

[dionysus]

184. and here to think i've been repeatedly called a "cheerleader" for a "messiah"...

[Tarheel_Dem]

185. It's a real kick in the head, ain't it?

[Ken Burch]

206. The problem is, you took this thread as an attack on Obama

And it had nothing to do with Obama.

[eridani]

170. The people in his OLD district did indeed love him

The new district had most of Kaptur's old constituency, and very little of his old constituency. See the Grayson posting for the really appalling example of gerrymandering.

What kind ot idiot do you have to be to think that sacrificing his first career in the 70s to preserve Cleveland's public power system is not an accomplishment?

[Tarheel_Dem]

179. The kind of idiot who thinks his "Congressional" career has been a flop?

Why would you ask me a question like that? Ralph Nader did some good things in the 60's too, but that doesn't make him relevant today.

I'll ask again, what "legislative" successes has Kooch authored and/or co-authored? I'll wait....

[eridani]

195. The same number as any other Democrat serving in Congress between 1994 and 2006 n/t

[Tarheel_Dem]

208. So GOP obstructionism was to blame?

Funny how that excuse works for some, but not for others, doncha think?

[Ken Burch]

226. Why are you trying to turn this into a "fuck you, Obama critics" thread?

I didn't start the thread to attack Obama at all. The thread had nothing to do with Obama until you and Dionysis showed up and started derailing for no reason.

You had no justification for posting in this thread at all. You should have just stayed the hell away. Why couldn't you leave this alone? This thread wasn't doing Obama any harm.

[eridani]

228. It works when the GOP has the House, the Senate and the presidency n/t

[Ken Burch]

239. Legislation isn't more important than EVERYTHING else

And it's not worth the time to pass watered-down legislation, like you'd have had Dennis settle for doing. It isn't progressive, either, since progressive results don't come from still passing bills AFTER they've been watered-down.

You're just pissed because Dennis didn't say he'd back ANY form of a healthcare bill from the start.
Since you got a bill passed for the sake of getting a bill passed(and he DID vote for it in the end), can't you let that one go already?

[brentspeak]

94. "his hero status belies his actual record of accomplishment"

Truer words re. Obama have never been spoken.

[Tarheel_Dem]

107. Kooch has three (3) legislative "successes" for his entire Congressional career. Would you like...

to share those "earth shattering"; "game changing"; "once in a lifetime"; "progressive" pieces of leglislation with the audience, brent? For all his bluster and attention seeking, it would be nice to compare his actual legislative "successes" to the rhetoric.

I would, but I everytime I post it. Dennis got exactly what he deserved. His constituents knew that Dennis was much more interested in playing for a national audience than he was about delivering for the home district that he has very much taken for granted. Marci didn't just beat him, she beat him like he stole something.


Have a good day now, ya hear?

[Ken Burch]

131. Most of Dennis' career was under GOP control of BOTH houses

NO Dem got anything passed between 1994 and 2006(nothing Clinton got through in his last six years was progressive anyway, and nothing at all good passed once Dubya got in).

So that's a false measure.

You can't judge Congressmembers on legislation passed when it wasn't possible for anyone in Dennis' party to GET anything passed.

He did the best that anybody could have done, given the conditions he was working with.

It simply isn't worth trying to pass diluted "compromise" legislation. That's no different than losing. You can't fix diluted bills later anymore, anyway. That era ended years ago.

[suffragette]

172. Kucinich was targeted by the Republicans and this loss is not a laughing matter

I see nothing funny about losing a good Democrat because of Republican gerrymandering that purposefully pitted these two against each other.

Republicans likely calculated it would be a cumulative win no matter who won or lost, but in carving that map out the way they did, they tilted the odds that he would be defeated.

I see nothing to celebrate about in that for Democrats, though I'm sure that Republicans from Boehner down are quite happy about what they have achieved.



http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/03/07
What America Lost When Dennis Kucinich Lost
by John Nichols
Kucinich was the first electoral victim of the current round of redistricting, which saw congressional districts redrawn in states across the country after the 2010 Census. A Republican governor and legislature carved up northern Ohio districts with an eye toward eliminating at least one Democratic seat, and they achieved their goal by forcing Kucinich and Kaptur into the same district.

http://www.rollcall.com/features/Election-Preview_2011/election/top-5-ugliest-districts-210224-1.html
Ohio’s 9th district



The Buckeye State lost two House seats, and Republicans moved
Democratic Reps. Marcy Kaptur and Dennis Kucinich into the same lakeshore district. But the two Democrats don’t exactly live next door to each other — more like 120 miles apart. So Republicans drew a thin district connecting their homes, stretching from west Cleveland to Toledo along the Lake Erie coastline. The district is connected by a bridge that’s only 20 yards wide, as well as by a single beach at one point. When Crane Creek State Park beach is covered during high water, Democrats argue the district is not even contiguous.

[ellisonz]

174. This is why we need to reform the election process from the bottom on up. n/t

[suffragette]

201. That's how I found DU, through what became the election reform forum after the 2004 election

so you know I agree with that

That was when it was called "2004 Election Results and Discussion."

Read for around a month before I joined.

Here's my 1st OP from back in the day:http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=173954

[ellisonz]

203. The election reform group used to be superactive...

These days not so much: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1091

I find that having an active group is all about having good hosts.

I wish I could find my first OP/post - I looked, no dice. I am a Deaniac!

Good to make your acquaintance.

[suffragette]

207. Yes, it used to be very active

And activist.

I met a couple of people in that thread(as well as many more) in DC in Jan 2005 when we went to the rallies to encourage a Senator to stand up to question the Ohio results.

Remembering the name of the video in the link I posted is why I can still find it.

It still leads to the video and so much of it still resonates strongly.

[Tarheel_Dem]

180. Aren't most Democrats "targeted by Republicans"?

[Ken Burch]

240. Not to the point of having their districts deliberately gerrymandered away.

About the only two Democratic congressmembers I know of who got that treatment were Dennis and Allard Lowenstein.

[suffragette]

245. They could not beat him in an election, so they targeted him by gerrymandering

That's quite a bit more than going after someone in an election. They could not get his constituents to vote for them (and against Kucinich) so they changed the whole district as shown above, turning it into a notably gerrymandered one.

From what I've read, Kucinich won in a district that had been predominately Republican run before that and was consistently re-elected.

More on this here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Kucinich#House_of_Representatives

In 1996, Kucinich was elected to the U.S. House of Representatives, representing the 10th district of Ohio. He defeated two-term Republican incumbent Martin Hoke by three percentage points. However, he has never faced another contest nearly that close, and has since been re-elected six times.

And here - Republican since 1891, except for two one-term Democrats (the last one serving 1965 1967 and Kucinich. So, that last stretch was 30 years until Kucinich shifted it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio's_10th_congressional_district

[Ken Burch]

144. Stop with the wave smilies.

The fact is, between 1994 and 2006, NO Democrats got anything passed. At least not anything that mattered.

Even Teddy Kennedy wasn't able to do much of anything in those years but limit the damage.

You can't judge a politician of the minority party by how much legislation she or he got passed. The only kinds of bills such people can get passed are those that are totally innocuous(and therefore worthless)and those that are watered-down-to-nothing(and thus not WORTH passing).

Getting bills passed isn't worth being silent on immoral wars, or the use of torture, or the obscene level of the war budget, or corporate dominance, or the weakening of unions, or social policies designed not to help the poor but just to punish them. When you concede all of those things(as YOUR kind of Democrat always does), that doesn't leave any other issues that actually matters on which a person can still BE different than the Republicans. Everything else is a bland side issue.

[G_j]

47. great isn't it?

are you ready to celebrate?

[LanternWaste]

52. I imagine you may even believe that to be a truth.

I imagine you may even believe that to be a truth.

[One of the 99]

75. Thanks.

The truth is that Kucinich was one if the least effective members of congress. Too bad most of the ditto heads here won't admit that.

[Ken Burch]

167. No Democratic member of Congress was effective between 1994 and 2006

when the 'pugs had their majority.

And the Bush veto from 2006 to 2008, followed by the filibusters from 2008 on, made effectiveness pretty much impossible for anyone else.

You really can't point to anyone who was actually progressive who was able to be effective in any of those periods. The whole party was totally powerless.

And it isn't effectiveness to pass compromise legislation. None of the compromises were even half a loaf. Most were a slice at best. Incrementalism isn't effectiveness, and it isn't real change.

Kaptur didn't do anything that was any MORE effective than Dennis. Even Teddy the K was helpless during the period of Dennis' Congressional career.

You have no better model of effectiveness to point to at all, really. NOBODY in our party got a damn thing done in the last fourteen years in Congress.

[One of the 99]

175. Like I said

the dittoheads just won't accept the truth and will make excuses.

[Ken Burch]

187. I'm not making excuses.

It's impossible to be effective when you're in a minority. Nobody ever is.

Even Teddy the K wasn't in those years.

You can't offer an example of any progressive, in the 1994-2006 period, who got stuff passed.

And no, getting weak compromise bills passed isn't "effectiveness", because weak bills stay weak forever now.

There were NO successful progressives in Congress in those years. And you damn well know it.

Kaptur got nothing done in those years, too.

[One of the 99]

194. Nice evasion.

So anything I might bring up you'll just denounce as weak compromise bills. Problem is that getting things done in Congress requires compromise, not a my way or the highway attitude, whether you want to admit it or not.

BTW During the years 2007 & 2010 when the Dems controlled congress, how many bills did Kucinich get passed?

[Ken Burch]

196. There simply aren't any bills you COULD bring up

And the thing is, none of the compromises helped anyone in the 99%. Settling for less is the same thing as settling for nothing.

There simply weren't any watered-down bills in the period after 1994 that ended up being worth passing. The Lily Ledbetter thing was about it, and that wasn't watered-down because even the 'Pugs knew it was indecent to vote against it.

Dennis couldn't have made the compromises you accept and still retained any right to call himself a progressive. He'd have lost himself and not served his constituents.

Basically, you hate Dennis because he didn't settle for two or three slices(since none of the compromises you would bring up were even HALF a loaf).

There was no compromise position possible on the Patriot Act...none on torture or closing Gitmo...none on the Iraq War...none on "free trade"...

[One of the 99]

197. So you're saying

That doing nothing was better than doing even a little something for the people in his district. It's more important that he maintained his street cred with the left than actually accomplish anything.

Thanks for continuing to prove my point. Can't wait till you next post that will prove it even more.

[Ken Burch]

202. There were no instances in which compromise WOULD have helped his district

And Kaptur didn't do any compromising either, as far as that goes. She never took half a loaf, or less than half.

Half-bills aren't an accomplishment.

If the 1964 Civil Rights Act had been handled like HCR was, Jim Crow would have stayed in full effect until 1968, and then been only half-removed.

No progressive that DID compromise after 1994 succeeded in helping her or his district, either.

You basically wanted Dennis to settle for being a DLC'er...which is what you become when you settle for compromise bills.

And since Dennis did come around and back what was left of Obama's healthcare bill in the end...what have you got to hold a grudge against him on?

Are you pissed off that he didn't settle for the stuff Bill Clinton thought was progressive? None of which was worth passing anyway after Clinton's version of HCR died? All Slick did was create a few national parks and one tax break for the poor. That was it. None of which makes up for signing Rush Limbaugh's wet dream of a "welfare reform" bill.

[One of the 99]

213. You know for a fact there were no instances.

So you attended every meeting and caucus, read every bill, reviewed every proposal. You're making absolute statements that you can't know for a fact and then trying to cover it with hyperbole.

You just keep proving my point over and over again. Thanks.

[Ken Burch]

214. You have no point

If there were any examples where Dennis would have helped his district by compromising, you'd have at least offered them.

Weak bills aren't gains, buddy.

[One of the 99]

216. No you missed the point

Just as I thought you would.

[Ken Burch]

222. There was no point to miss

It's never progressive to get badly compromised bills through.

And there were no chances for Dennis to have helped his district through compromise. If there were, you'd have cited one by now.

The kinds of compromise Rahm Emmanuel did were no different than just giving up. None of them were progressive.

[One of the 99]

229. And you missed it again.

[Ken Burch]

215. When did he even HAVE a chance to do a little for his district?

He DID vote for what was left of Obama's healthcare bill in the end....isn't that enough for you?

Just tell me what compromises Dennis was personally responsible for killing that would have been so freaking worth it. Offer me even ONE example where something half-good would have happened if only it hadn't been for Dennis. One example. Just one.

Put it out there for us to see.

Put up. Or shut up.

You have the obligation to do that if you're going to make an intellectually honest argument here.

[One of the 99]

217. No you have the obligation

since you're claiming that he had no opportunity even during the 4 years the Dems controled congress.

I'm just going from the record that shows he was one of the least effective members of congress.

[Ken Burch]

218. NO, you're just bashing a guy who wasn't afraid to speak out

Like the kind of "effective" Dems that you prefer(the ones who don't have any core values)refuse to do.

Your preference seems to be for the bland and malleable sort of Dem, the one who thinks that passing a bill, any bill, is "victory".

Those who stay quiet don't do much of anything that's really progressive...nor do those who mainly do what the party leadership says. It's only the rebels you can trust.

It's not like Kaptur was getting stuff passed in between 2006 and 2010. Bush's vetoes and the filibuster made it impossible for much of anybody to be "effective" by your standards.

You make it sound like Dennis STOPPED a whole bunch of good things from going through by not accepting compromises. There weren't more than a handful of bills that were ever decided in the House by 1 vote during the 2006-2010 period. And I can't think of any that Dennis was responsible for defeating by not compromising.

It was effectiveness that Dennis helped build mass opposition to the Iraq War.

It was effectiveness that Dennis helped bring working-class issues back in to national politics when your kind of Dem was ignoring them.

It was effectiveness that Dennis helped champion the issues of the Occupy movement...the movement that represents the dispossessed economic majority that your kind of "half-a-loaf" Dem never gave a damn about.

It isn't just about passing bills. And there's no reason that passing bills should be considered any more important than anything else Congress does.

[One of the 99]

220. Not bashing him

Just accepting the truth about him.

And thank you again for proving my point that the dittoheads here would make excuses for him which you continue to do, even resorting to the intellectually dishonest practice of trying to put words in my mouth.

Please make another post and prove me right yet again.

[Ken Burch]

221. I made no excuses

You really can't measure effectiveness solely by whether or not you get bills passed...especially when the only bills that can get passed in a particular situation are the sort that aren't worth passing.

Even if we assume that HCR was a worthwhile result after all the important things were taken out of the bill, you can't point to any OTHER compromise legislation in the 2006-2010 period that actually did progressive good...and you can't point to any good results that Dennis stopped.

So your attack on Dennis is discredited.

You don't give a damn about the 99% if you're willing to play the bullshit "half a loaf" gain. The half-loaves don't end up helping the 99%

You can't name a single member of Congress who actually achieved real progressive gains and real benefits for her or his district by pushing through compromise bills and settling for tiny increments in the 2006-2010 period. All there were in any of those bills were crumbs...crumbs...and crumbs never add up to a loaf by being piled together with more crumbs in the future.

[One of the 99]

230. Yes you are

And you keep making them. Just as you keep trying to put words in my mouth to divert from that fact that you are making excuses.

[Ken Burch]

241. I"m not making excuses.

The fact is, once you settle for passing compromise bills, you stop BEING a progressive. Watered-down bills don't lead to progressive outcomes anymore. It's not progressive if the change takes freaking decades.

Dennis did everything any Dem could have done during his era in Congress.

Nobody really got much of anything passed. If anybody did, you'd have offered an example of an "effective" progressive. Yet you don't have one. Therefore, you're admitting it was impossible to be effective and progressive in terms of passing real legislation during Dennis' era in Congress, since weak, watered-down bills don't count as effectiveness.

No Dems at all met whatever standards you think you're upholding here.

And it was totally inappropriate for you to come in and spoil this thread.

[One of the 99]

244. I'm not spoiling this thread.

I merely thanked someone for speaking the truth. You're the one who decided to make an issue out of it by making excuses, which proved my point, and dishonestly trying to put words in my mouth.

[Ken Burch]

122. It wasn't possible for any Dem to get anything passed between 1994 and 2006

And it was barely possible to get anything passed after that, due to the filibuster.

So really, what the hell COULD Dennis or anyone else in this party have accomplished in that period?

It's not as if anyone to Dennis' right was more effective...or that anything any of the less-outspoken passed in those years was worth passing.

If you measure effectiveness in terms of passing bills, NO Dem was effective between 1994 and 2006, and few afterwords.

So it's not as if you have any good alternatives to Dennis' approach to offer.

Pragmatism was just another word for surrender in '94-06 years(the period that made up MOST of Dennis' service in Congress).

[bvar22]

176. There you go again,

....ruining a perfectly good conservative sound byte attack on a Democrat.



Cherish your memories,
because "they" are taking everything else.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[snappyturtle]

30. Last night I was truly saddened when I heard of the Kucinich loss.

Today...I'm still sad.

[SomethingFishy]

32. He should hook up with Russ Feingold...

Work from the outside in... He always has anyway.. They could do a lot of good together.

[sabrina 1]

33. Thank you Dennis.

I think he will be back. He's lost before and come back so I am not going to say goodbye to him.

Maybe if he had taken some of that Corporate money floating around and sold his soul, he would have won. I'd rather he lost than do that.

[RoccoR5955]

37. K & R...

Many thanks to Congressman Kucinich, for doing the work of WE THE PEOPLE, not them, the corporations. You will be sorely missed.
And I live in NY!

[hifiguy]

40. Thank you, Mr. Kucinich, for fighting the good fight

for so long. Hope to see you in elected office again soon.

[Leopolds Ghost]

41. I'm not sure -- I think Kucinich played a "role" for the most part -- but this was dirty

But this is pure politics and an effort to silence dissenting voices on the left. Kaptur can rest assured the same fate would befall her if she hadn't agreed to whatever deal folks in Washington offered her.

[jeff47]

60. Can you send me some of what you're smoking?

So, your conspiracy theory goes like this:

Democrats in Washington colluded with Republicans in Ohio to rig redistricting so that Kuchinich would have to run against Kaptur. These evil Democrats decided they would silence the left by having Kuchinich lose to a member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

[OhioChick]

42. Dennis was one of the very few "good guys" left...

[BlueIris]

44. Won't be surprised if he's back on top soon.

Possibly the very top. Good luck, Mr. Kucinich. If you do get another shot, don't screw up.

[Lifelong Protester]

53. A K & R and a Thank you

He may have sometimes come across as more than a little "out there", but I'll take that over insider any day.

[Blue_Tires]

55. kick

[felix_numinous]

57. Thank you Dennis

for standing up for the American people. I am so sad to hear todays news, but look forward to hearing from you soon and often.
from a long time supporter.

[Recursion]

62. One less pro-life dem in the caucus

Sorry, couldn't resist...

[bvar22]

65. Irrresistable Urge to attack the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party?

Yes.
We already noticed.

Cheers.



[font color=firebrick][center]”Unlike the other candidates, I am not funded by those corporate interests.
I owe them no loyalty, and they have no influence over me or my policies.” ---Dennis Kucinich [/font]
[/center]





You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[Ken Burch]

124. Dennis broke with that stance in 2004 and never went back.

Kaptur is to his right on those issues.

[OnyxCollie]

63. Thank you, Dennis.

[Spock_is_Skeptical]

66. Man, this REALLY sucks.

We really need Dennis.

[RainDog]

67. Kaptur is hardly bland

The Nation magazine named her most valuable member of the House at one point and she is a member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

If you want to say goodbye to Kucinich, fine.

Please don't lie about the person who won.

[Ken Burch]

148. I'll back her against Joe the Plumber, obviously(and I removed the word "bland").

But you can't blame people for feeling grief-stricken about this. It's not like she was BETTER than Dennis in any meaningful way.

She has a lot to prove, now. She has an obligation to start being a vocal for peace and against globalization as Dennis is. Big war budgets are not good for northern Ohio.

[bvar22]

69. I wish I could DURec this again.

Instead I'll just kick it,
and add a blast from the old Liberal days of DU.

"
If DK is eliminated from the debates, who will tell America that:

*Single Payer Universal HealthCare is not only possible, but cheaper.

*that "For Profit" HealthCare is obscene

*that Mandatory Health Insurance is NOT REALLY Universal HealthCare

*that the Democratic Party and American taxpayers should NOT be forced to subsidize some of the richest CEOs in history by subsidizing the HealthCare Insurance Corps and HMOs.

*that the USA SHOULD give the Imperial Palace (Green Zone) back to the Iraqis, close the permanent bases, expel all Corporate Consultants, withdraw ALL US Troops, and begin paying reparations NOW.

*that redeploying some troops at some future date is a PRO-WAR position.

*that the "Oil Law Benchmark" supported by the Democratic Party is a War Crime

*That we can have election accountability with "Paper Ballots publicly hand counted at the precinct".

*that we CAN cut $Billions$ from the Defense Budget

*that the RICHEST Corporations in history do NOT need $Billions$ in welfare subsidies

*that NAFTA (Free Trade) has not been a good thing for Americans who have to work for a living

*that Impeachment is not optional, our reps are SWORN to protect The Constitution

*that the USA should join the rest of the civilized World in banning Land Mines

*that the USA should join the rest of the civilized World in the International Criminal Court.


Its about The ISSUES,
not the Campaign Hype.
Who will tell the truth to America if DK is kicked off the Democratic stage?
Dennis Kucinich's Truth to Power voice is one of the few reasons I am still in the Democratic Party.

--Post on DU by bvar22, 2008


[font color=firebrick][center]The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR. [/font][/center]

Thank You, Dennis Kucinich!


You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[countryjake]

71. +1 - Yup, that poll speaks volumes about what once was, here at DU...

and also at many locales throughout the country.

When we held our primary caucuses that election season, people in my little neck of the woods raised an actual ruckus, holding firm to support for Dennis Kucinich, even tho he'd already withdrawn from his campaign for Prez. The speeches that were spontaneously given that rainy day in Feb. 2008, to local friends and neighbors, by common ordinary people who were merely hoping for actual representation in the highest office of the land...speaking truth to power, as district party leaders scrambled to silence and sway the palpable feelings of so many who refused to accept that ultimate compromise.
Dennis Kucinich has been an inspiration to many, in the past! And he continues...

[Bryn]

191. Dennis sure was very popular, I supported him

in the primaries.

Thank you, Dennis

k&r

[mikelgb]

76. K+R Thank you dennis.

43 votes for POTUS on the DNC convention floor in 2004. Was inspiring to see a not too subtle message to John Kerry. Was devesating to see the message ignored.

Keep fighting Dennis.

[woo me with science]

77. Please don't go away.

Please come back stronger than ever. Be public. Be vocal. We need you.

[Wind Dancer]

78. K & R!

Well stated!

[Dragonfli]

80. One less Democrat that actually believes in Democratic principles, Faux Dems have been

winning for the GOP since they started infiltrating the party as "moderate Democrats" beginning about thirty years ago.
It is pretty much the 90's retro Republican party now, regardless of what the brand they stole says.

The Democratic party is really only a memory.
Leaving the 90's Republican party and the new fascist Republican Party in it's absence.

No party left for the working man/woman, only agents for a change to a cheap labor market that will compete with the worst of countries for the least amount paid, those free trade deals have a purpose and it isn't a progressive one.

[rhett o rick]

102. You can see some Faux Dems right here in this thread. They have a hatred for progressives.

I could understand that they might not agree with progressives and be happy with watered down legislation like the HCR, but they seem to hate progressives as much as Republicans do. I have asked them over and over how they disagree with progressives on issues. They never will answer me. I ask them to tell me just what they stand for. Again, never to reply. I have to conclude that they are conservatives and agree with REpublicans more than progressives.

[Dragonfli]

109. They think we can't see through the false flag operation, the jokes on them, we know a Republican

when we hear one. Once that Republican starts talking about policy, he/she will give themselves away. (they clam up on you so you don't see it)

They are in our party partly because their own party only allows fascists now and partly as an attempt to destroy FDR's vision from within (they hate him most of all).

It is too late now to fix it, it is what it is, big money conservatism has already won and now owns both party leaderships outright.

[rhett o rick]

111. The oligarch's grip on the Democratic Party will make it impossible to fix

without a massive up rise. OWS is the beginning.

[fascisthunter]

151. They are too stupid to see how stupid they are

and when they attack, they attack like a bunch of rich high school meatheads.

[TeamsterDem]

96. Indeed. nt

[DonCoquixote]

98. If you want to make a difference dennis

Run for Senate
Run for governor
or
come down to Florida and help Alan grayson. I would love to see either of you teach charlie crist how real democrats do things.

[Ken Burch]

117. He'll undoubtably do one of those things.

Senate or governor weren't really options for him in Ohio-the party leadership would have made sure he went down in flames in either primary for those.

[Octafish]

104. Thank you, Mr. Kucinich!

Thank you, Ken Burch!

[DesertFlower]

105. we're losing too many good people.

[limpyhobbler]

112. I hope he runs for governor or senator in Ohio someday soon.

[libtodeath]

113. K&R

[BumRushDaShow]

132. K&R

[bluestate10]

138. Kaptur beat Kucinich because she was the better candidate.

Call it what it was.

[Ken Burch]

140. She's not the better candidate if she's to his right.

n/t.

[eridani]

171. She beat him because the new 9th CD contained most of her former constituents--

--and many fewer former Kucinich constituents.

[fascisthunter]

188. she's more conservative

of course you'd feel this way.

[MrMickeysMom]

142. Dennis... you need to be part of this next administration...

As secretary of PEACE.

[HarveyDarkey]

145. Yes thank you Dennis

Oh why couldn't you get taken seriously and get elected President? You will be back, stronger than ever, this I'm sure of.

[Iggo]

146. DENNIS KUCINICH!!!

[madrchsod]

149. yes! thank you dennis!

dennis move to northern ill and run for the illinois 16th! we don`t have a candidate just two republicans going at each other. in fact you know both of them.

i`m sure every democrat would welcome you......

[cantbeserious]

150. Thank You For All Your Hard Work - Many Of Us Have Appreciated Your Efforts And Wished We Could Vote

eom

[lovuian]

152. God Bless him

He is one great guy

[stonecutter357]

153. K&R...

[sonias]

154. Thank you, Dennis!

You served with honor and dignity and were a great public servant for the people.

Dennis!

[pam4water]

161. Thank you Dennis!

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

163. K&R. The crooked Rethug idiots that...

... made Kucinich's district disappear may have unleashed a force to be reckoned with in some new capacity where he can be more effective -- time will tell.

[napoleon_in_rags]

164. Come to WA, Dennis...

Smell the tall pines, feel the fresh ocean air. This is where you belong...

[Tripod]

169. K&R

[ellisonz]

182. K & R

[raouldukelives]

183. K&R

[former9thward]

193. Good job, Dennis!

I had the privilege of meeting Dennis once, in the basement of a bar on the North side of Chicago, and it was a honor. He was too principled for most of the leadership and it cost him. I am sure he will do well no matter what he does from here. Good luck!

[MuseRider]

212. Yes, thank you Dennis.

Sad to lose his voice. I don't think we have heard the last of him however and that makes me happy. He is now free to go about his work without the constraints of being a representative.

Whatever he decides to do I will be happy to follow and wish him well, send a few bucks if I can.

This made me very sad but then what comes next could be wonderful. We have to hope. His voice and ideas need to be heard. Maybe his best years are yet to come.

Thanks for this thread. I am glad I saw it.

[mick063]

219. I wish he would have run in Washington.

I live there.

Run against Rep Doc Hastings in my district, and I would donate money and pound the street for him.

[countryjake]

235. Another kick and a big Thank You to Congressman Kucinich!

We need more fighters like you to represent us, not faux-Democrats.

I see the conservatives high-fiving and chuckling at their defeat of one more liberal conscience in this country, but once there are no longer any voices speaking up for the working-class in our government, when the poor, the elderly, the sickly realize they actually have no effective representation, when minorities and women continue to be assaulted and stripped of guaranteed rights by right-wing legislation, when another generation of our youth are sent off to fight and die in wars of USA aggression...maybe then some will think back and wish they had never tried to drown out the voice of Dennis Kucinich.

[UTUSN]

242. R#209 (my highest ever) & K for, sorry I'm so late n/t

[suffragette]

246. Thank you Dennis

And thank you, Ken, for posting this.
K&R