HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » It's A Darn Good Thing Al...

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 12:28 PM

 

It's A Darn Good Thing All Those Snowden Revelations Came To Nothing...

Lawmakers propose USA Freedom Act to curb NSAís powers
By Brendan Sasso - TheHill
10/29/13

<snip>

Dozens of lawmakers from both parties introduced legislation Tuesday to rein in the National Security Agency's spying powers. The USA Freedom Act, which has 16 co-sponsors in the Senate and more than 70 in the House, would end the agency's massive phone record collection program ó one of the most controversial revelations from the leaks by Edward Snowden.

The bill was authored by Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.), chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and Rep. James Sensenbrenner Jr. (R-Wis.), the original author of the Patriot Act in 2001.

In a statement, Sensenbrenner said the Patriot Act has helped keep Americans safe, but that "somewhere along the way, the balance between security and privacy was lost." "Itís now time for the Judiciary committees to again come together in a bipartisan fashion to ensure the law is properly interpreted, past abuses are not repeated and American liberties are protected," he said.

Civil liberties groups cheered the introduction of the USA Freedom Act, saying it would help end the NSA's privacy violations.

"The last five months have proven that the NSA cannot be trusted with the surveillance authorities they have been given by a secret court without the knowledge or approval of the American people," Michelle Richardson, a lobbyist for the American Civil Liberties Union, said. "The only way to stop the NSA's collect-it-all mentality is for Congress to pass legislation that prohibits the intelligence community from engaging in the dragnet surveillance of Americans' communications."

Other Senate co-sponsors include Sens. Mike Lee (R-Utah), Dick Durbin (D-Ill.), Dean Heller (R-Nev.), Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.), Tom Udall (D-N.M.) and Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.). In the House, the bill is backed by Reps. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.), Justin Amash (R-Mich.), Zoe Lofgren (D-Calif.) and Darrell Issa (R-Calif.).

The National Rifle Association, the Center for Democracy and Technology, the Constitution Project and other civil liberties groups have also endorsed the bill...


<snip>

More: http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/331199-usa-freedom-act-would-curb-nsa-power





162 replies, 9615 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 162 replies Author Time Post
Reply It's A Darn Good Thing All Those Snowden Revelations Came To Nothing... (Original post)
WillyT Oct 2013 OP
nadinbrzezinski Oct 2013 #1
sad-cafe Oct 2013 #99
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #2
Puzzledtraveller Oct 2013 #8
Katashi_itto Oct 2013 #12
hootinholler Oct 2013 #24
Katashi_itto Oct 2013 #36
hootinholler Oct 2013 #55
Katashi_itto Oct 2013 #57
Zorra Oct 2013 #142
Logical Oct 2013 #81
LineLineLineLineReply !
Katashi_itto Oct 2013 #93
dotymed Oct 2013 #130
Luminous Animal Oct 2013 #3
Dr. Strange Oct 2013 #4
Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #110
LittleBlue Oct 2013 #5
WorseBeforeBetter Oct 2013 #84
Zorra Oct 2013 #6
JDPriestly Oct 2013 #26
quakerboy Oct 2013 #105
JDPriestly Oct 2013 #106
Enthusiast Oct 2013 #116
L0oniX Oct 2013 #139
Zorra Oct 2013 #147
Buns_of_Fire Oct 2013 #122
Enthusiast Oct 2013 #115
Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2013 #7
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #13
sabrina 1 Oct 2013 #77
rhett o rick Oct 2013 #123
woo me with science Oct 2013 #132
A Simple Game Oct 2013 #137
ReRe Oct 2013 #109
Blue_Tires Oct 2013 #9
nadinbrzezinski Oct 2013 #17
JDPriestly Oct 2013 #27
leftstreet Oct 2013 #10
randome Oct 2013 #11
mindwalker_i Oct 2013 #14
ConservativeDemocrat Oct 2013 #15
totodeinhere Oct 2013 #19
cali Oct 2013 #114
NealK Oct 2013 #118
ConservativeDemocrat Oct 2013 #148
dtom67 Oct 2013 #16
DeSwiss Oct 2013 #20
bvar22 Oct 2013 #18
NealK Oct 2013 #124
JEB Oct 2013 #21
neffernin Oct 2013 #30
JEB Oct 2013 #39
JEB Oct 2013 #63
neffernin Oct 2013 #68
rhett o rick Oct 2013 #40
neffernin Oct 2013 #60
rhett o rick Oct 2013 #89
bvar22 Oct 2013 #151
kiva Oct 2013 #22
hootinholler Oct 2013 #23
jsr Oct 2013 #47
Uncle Joe Oct 2013 #25
WillyT Oct 2013 #126
AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #28
Ichingcarpenter Oct 2013 #29
AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #37
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #38
AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #43
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #45
AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #46
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #49
muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #125
Mojorabbit Oct 2013 #101
Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2013 #112
Enthusiast Oct 2013 #117
Bluenorthwest Oct 2013 #42
AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #44
Skittles Oct 2013 #62
ronnie624 Oct 2013 #129
backscatter712 Oct 2013 #153
Ichingcarpenter Oct 2013 #50
AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #51
Ichingcarpenter Oct 2013 #53
AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #56
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #54
AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #59
riderinthestorm Oct 2013 #73
AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #79
neffernin Oct 2013 #72
Skittles Oct 2013 #61
AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #66
Logical Oct 2013 #82
cui bono Oct 2013 #107
NealK Oct 2013 #127
AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #155
neffernin Oct 2013 #31
rhett o rick Oct 2013 #41
neffernin Oct 2013 #58
JEB Oct 2013 #65
neffernin Oct 2013 #67
rhett o rick Oct 2013 #90
neffernin Oct 2013 #92
rhett o rick Oct 2013 #95
neffernin Oct 2013 #100
rhett o rick Oct 2013 #102
neffernin Oct 2013 #103
rhett o rick Oct 2013 #120
neffernin Oct 2013 #159
rhett o rick Oct 2013 #160
7962 Oct 2013 #111
rhett o rick Oct 2013 #121
neffernin Oct 2013 #138
7962 Oct 2013 #157
neffernin Oct 2013 #161
7962 Oct 2013 #162
Logical Oct 2013 #83
Vashta Nerada Oct 2013 #104
LineReply !
xchrom Oct 2013 #32
WillyT Oct 2013 #33
marmar Oct 2013 #34
WillyT Oct 2013 #70
WillyT Oct 2013 #75
felix_numinous Oct 2013 #35
rhett o rick Oct 2013 #48
AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #52
rhett o rick Oct 2013 #87
AverageJoe90 Oct 2013 #94
rhett o rick Oct 2013 #97
WillyT Oct 2013 #64
rhett o rick Oct 2013 #88
struggle4progress Oct 2013 #69
WillyT Oct 2013 #71
struggle4progress Oct 2013 #74
WillyT Oct 2013 #78
struggle4progress Oct 2013 #85
muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #128
struggle4progress Oct 2013 #135
RKP5637 Oct 2013 #76
Logical Oct 2013 #80
struggle4progress Oct 2013 #86
Logical Oct 2013 #91
struggle4progress Oct 2013 #96
rhett o rick Oct 2013 #98
struggle4progress Oct 2013 #136
woo me with science Oct 2013 #134
Katashi_itto Oct 2013 #133
L0oniX Oct 2013 #146
Scurrilous Oct 2013 #149
Logical Oct 2013 #150
JI7 Oct 2013 #158
B Calm Oct 2013 #108
randome Oct 2013 #113
ronnie624 Oct 2013 #144
randome Oct 2013 #152
stonecutter357 Oct 2013 #119
uponit7771 Oct 2013 #131
L0oniX Oct 2013 #140
randome Oct 2013 #141
L0oniX Oct 2013 #145
Zorra Oct 2013 #143
backscatter712 Oct 2013 #154
Rex Oct 2013 #156

Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 12:30 PM

1. ...

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 10:06 PM

99. fascinating

 

information.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 12:32 PM

2. Waiting for the flood of "Snowden's still a traitor/patsy/scumbag" brigade to arrive 3..2..1..

 

Thanks for this Willy!

Big K&R

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #2)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 12:42 PM

8. I remember them well

I think PS went from 90K or so to breaking 100k post on Snowden alone.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #2)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 12:57 PM

12. Wondering where our hourly Anti-Snowden poster has gone...

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #12)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 02:37 PM

24. Which one?

Bluegrass whatever got a pizza earlier in the week.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hootinholler (Reply #24)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 05:19 PM

36. Tombstone?

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #36)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 07:31 PM

55. Is there any other?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hootinholler (Reply #55)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 07:36 PM

57. True!

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hootinholler (Reply #24)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:11 AM

142. Heh. EarlG has become an excellent tracker and hunter.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #12)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:44 PM

81. LOL, does it rhyme with NoSense? n-t

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Logical (Reply #81)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 09:42 PM

93. !

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #2)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 09:35 AM

130. I wonder how many of those

congress people called for the incarceration of Snowden for being a traitor?

What a sick bunch of "leaders(?)" we have.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 12:33 PM

3. It's a start

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 12:34 PM

4. But the garage boxes!

How can you people ignore Snowden's garage boxes?!!

And the ballerina?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #4)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 07:01 AM

110. Don't you worry none.

I'm sure plenty of men were transfixed on the ballerina.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 12:39 PM

5. Yep, that Snowden was just dishing old news

 

er, it will all come to nothing, HE'S A TRAITOR WAAAAAH WAAAAAH

The poor surveillance pimps, they were convinced of all these lies

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LittleBlue (Reply #5)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:50 PM

84. Add to that "not too bright" and according to what I learned downthread...

nothing but a Word formatting expert.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 12:40 PM

6. Ya know, healthcare.gov should have used the NSA to verify identities. Or maybe Experian

gets their information from the NSA.

That would certainly explain why healthcare.gov is FUBAR.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Zorra (Reply #6)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 02:41 PM

26. Obviously, healthcare.gov was not a priority.

All the money went to the maze of computers that keep Boundless Informant and its many brothers and sisters running merrily along at the NSA and our intelligence agencies.

After all, what is more important? Millions of Americans who cannot get health insurance and are doomed to bankruptcy if they or their children get sick or keeping a small clique of VIP Americans who enjoy all kinds of privileges including excellent health care at public expense that other Americans do not have?

Of course, the money has to go to the VIP clique. Only they can keep us "safe" so that they can we can be "free" to die in misery without decent medical insurance or access to a general practitioner.

Liberty and justice for all. Remember!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JDPriestly (Reply #26)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 12:56 AM

105. Oh man..

think about the potential cost savings if the converted the utah data center to running the ACA website, instead of storing all our phone calls and emails... I bet they even have the staff with enough know how to run it

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quakerboy (Reply #105)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 01:05 AM

106. We COULD do so much good in the world. Why don't we?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JDPriestly (Reply #106)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 07:43 AM

116. Apparently we are no longer a "force for good".

If we ever were.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Enthusiast (Reply #116)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:03 AM

139. The construction of the Death Star will continue.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JDPriestly (Reply #106)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:26 AM

147. Doing good does not generate a whole lot of monetary profit. OTOH...

Monetary profit is what doing evil is primarily all about.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to quakerboy (Reply #105)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 08:26 AM

122. From what I've read, they could probably run ALL government IT from there.

But then, I remembered how positively overrun the Homeland is with communists, socialists, terraists, people with non-lily-white skin, leftys, Islamists, old people, young people, middle-aged people, Buddists, Wiccans, journalists, teachers, writers, Occupy-ers, students, and zombies (I had to personally shoo two of them out from under the bed this morning!), and I thanked God that we had the legendary Starship Commander Alexander keeping us safe (and probably enjoying a well-deserved chuckle or two as he triggered DICK Cheney's remote sphincter control).

Also, your suggestion makes too much sense for the dullards charged with "oversight" of the facility.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JDPriestly (Reply #26)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 07:41 AM

115. +1

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 12:41 PM

7. Ha! But...but..everybody knew what he revealed..he's just an attention seeker.

 

He will eventually be caught and tried for Attention Seeking.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #7)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 01:02 PM

13. Lol! I forgot @ how they love to accuse him of attention seeking

 

As though its a crime. And/or the refusal to acknowledge that its saved his life (and kept him from Mannings fate).

What's even funnier is when they accuse Greenwald of attention seeking when he's a journalist trying to sell his stories whereby attention is exactly what he needs!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #13)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:37 PM

77. How do you recognize a bought-and-paid-for 'Talking Point'? When

it is repeated by the same group over and over again. I guess some high paid schmuck working for HB Gary or some other 'security contractor' came up with the idea that accusing Whistle Blowers and Journalists of 'attention seekers' was a great way to discredit them.

I am amazed at the failure of these very expensive 'talking points' thought up by morons who think they are smarter than the general public.

They don't seem to get that ordinary people are far more discerning than their arrogant opinions of them.

THAT was a particularly stupid talking point. I doubt it ever convinced a single person to change their views.

Imagine spending millions to try to influence people and having the exact opposite effect of what you paid for.

All they have to do is look at the polls re Snowden to see how they wasted their money.

My advice to the 'Think Tanks' who come up with these 'talking points' is to just go with being honest. Their talking points are laughable, kindergarten level, at this point. Everyone knows the tactic and no one gives them one iota of credibility at this point.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #77)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 08:28 AM

123. Speaking of think tanks and trolls, have you noticed a rash of poster in DU with low

 

post counts that take the conservative side? Or is it me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to rhett o rick (Reply #123)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 09:52 AM

137. Even scarier,

I have also noticed a rash of posters on DU with high post counts taking the conservative side and being very open about it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #13)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 06:50 AM

109. Profit motive...

... a pox on anyone who is educated with two degrees and trying to earn a living in this world.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 12:51 PM

9. interesting...

Hopefully Snowden will proceed to air other countries' dirty laundry and spur them into reform as well...(I hope to god he starts with Israel first)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #9)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 01:36 PM

17. GHQ and the Guardian

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #9)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 02:42 PM

27. That process is underway. Don't worry.

Other countries have functioning two, three, four party systems. If the surveillance is as prevalent in other countries as you and some others claim, the facts will be revealed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 12:53 PM

10. But he's just a '29 yr old hacker!'

LOL

DURec

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to leftstreet (Reply #10)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 12:55 PM

11. You don't have to be a 'hacker' to copy files.

 

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 01:10 PM

14. But, but, but, the BOXES

and his girlfriend! And he STOLE those file!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 01:15 PM

15. Wake me when more than 1/6th of the Congress is in favor of this...

...much less the 60 votes required to bypass the perennial filibuster.

A handful of true-blue believers allied with "I even wanted Osama to get away rather than Obama to get credit for killing him" Tea Party haters is not going to change the laws on anything.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #15)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 02:07 PM

19. Just because some of them are not co-sponsors of the bill doesn't mean that they

won't vote for it. We all need to contact our senators and reps and politely demand that they vote for it. One of my senators is a co-sponsor but that still leaves me one senator and one congressman to work on.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #15)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 07:25 AM

114. reality based? uh, no. I suggest you actually inform yourself and get in touch with

 

reality. Check out the vote on Amash's amendment to stop the mass collection of telephone data. Yeah, it was defeated- by a handful of votes.

I don't think you have a clue as to how sentiment in the Congress has been turning against the NSA. It's not hard to do a little basic research.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Reply #114)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 08:09 AM

118. There's a word missing...

It should read: Alternate Reality Based Community.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NealK (Reply #118)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:49 AM

148. We'll see, won't we?

This is one place where my interminable arguments with echo-chamber aficionados makes them come to hard, inescapable, truths.

Either the NSA will be got rid of, or it won't.

My bet is that it won't. Not only that, but my bet is that, aside from small tweaks to the law that Pelosi already put on the books five years ago to reign in the excesses of the Bush years, it will remain almost completely unchanged.

The U.S. has had signal intelligence since the Presidency of George Washington. In fact, Washington spent 13% of his budget on intelligence, while today the total federal budget spent on intelligence is less than 6%.

So do you agree, Mr. "Alternate Reality" that if you're still whining about this a year from now, that YOU are the one who is living it?

YES? Or in the alternative... NO?

By the way, my tag-line is meant as a slam against Karl Rove. That there are people on the left who also find themselves arguing with reality is too sad to be funny.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 01:34 PM

16. Am I just jaded or ....

does it seem questionable that ANY oversight apparatus will actually be effective in curtailing abuse? The only thing that would change my opinion would be strong laws to protect whistleblowers . Getting rid of ndaa and patriot act would help.
my basic view is that the spying is mostly government subsidized corporate espionage ;used primarily to benefit the Wealthy Elite. Terrorism is just an excuse, and would probably be better fought by removing the interests of those Elites ( and our genitalia ) from our foreign policy.

Maybe I should be hopeful, but I'm not ......

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to dtom67 (Reply #16)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 02:19 PM

20. It's all smoke and mirrors. n/t

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 01:44 PM

18. And Fukushima was "just venting a little steam".

The propagandists will say anything to protect the Status Quo,
and it is getting worse.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bvar22 (Reply #18)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 08:37 AM

124. +1

Nothing to see here, move along.

.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 02:22 PM

21. Snowden is getting more done

 

than out three branches of government combined.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JEB (Reply #21)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 02:59 PM

30. The reality of this is very sad

given Snowden himself is far from being a hero

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neffernin (Reply #30)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 06:09 PM

39. Whatever he is, he is way more useful to the people of this country

 

than the NSA apologists or the majority of our money grubbing sellout politicians.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JEB (Reply #39)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 07:52 PM

63. Stumbled across this interesting article.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JEB (Reply #63)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:07 PM

68. lol

Sorry, I really did laugh at that one. Public opinion polls mean little to nothing in this world. 1/8th of americans still think Obama is Muslim.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neffernin (Reply #30)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 06:11 PM

40. Why do you say that? nm

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #40)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 07:42 PM

60. I responded to the other post but

in this case I mean its sad that his file dump to the Guardian has been more productive at getting things done than our congress since Obama's first mid-term election . Especially this current congress. If only Franken would have been in his seat sooner, then that supermajority would have gotten even more done.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neffernin (Reply #60)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 09:16 PM

89. You said that Snowden was far from being a hero. Why did you say that? nm

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neffernin (Reply #30)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 12:32 PM

151. If MORE people had the courage to do what Snowden, Greenwald, Assange, and Manning have done..

...our "Democracy" would be in much better shape.

I pray that I too would have the courage To-Do-the-Right-Thing in that situation.
They ARE the Watchdogs of Our Democracy.
Rampant Government Secrecy and Democracy can NOT co-exist.

It would have been much easier for Manning & Snowden to have kept their mouth shut,
do what they were told, not ask questions, collect the pay check, and take the week end off.
That makes them HEROES of our Democracy in MY book.


You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 02:24 PM

22. But, but...

what about his ballerina girlfriend? Have you no sense of compassion or decency? And don't forget those boxes in his garage.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 02:34 PM

23. But this is invalid!

There was a guy with a picture of Obama with a hitler mustache at the rally supporting this bill!



I'm glad that dick is gone.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hootinholler (Reply #23)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 06:40 PM

47. Yep.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 02:37 PM

25. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, WillyT.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #25)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 08:55 AM

126. A Distinct Pleasure, Uncle Joe !!!

 




Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 02:43 PM

28. What revelations? None of this stuff was new!

 

Snowden did *nothing* beneficial, man. I'm sorry if this offends the Snowden fanboys out there, but it's the damn truth. We should instead be thanking *actual* whistleblowers & others who have tried to curb some of the very real overreaches of power by the NSA over the years.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #28)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 02:59 PM

29. I don't think your version of history

will pass the test of time even now after all the other whistle blowers were ignored and said Snowden did the right thing that brought the problem to its head.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ichingcarpenter (Reply #29)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 05:40 PM

37. Depends on how successful the revisionism is.

 

Even now, there's been a concerted effort to paint Snowden as a "hero" by the crooks manipulating the mass media. Funny thing is, just 3 years ago, the then Bradley Manning pulled his own schtick and was almost *immediately* vilifiedmainly by most of the very same people lauding Snowden now!)....and unlike Snowden, Manning actually truly believed he was doing the right thing. Now *she*, as Chelsea Manning, is serving 50+ years in prison, and she did FAR less damage than Snowden. Snowden, on the other hand, knew damn well he was putting U.S. personnel at risk.....and he simply didn't care.

And frankly, I find it all too disturbing that in general, outside of a few liberal sites like DU(who tend to be more principled) many of very same people who condemned *actual* whistleblowers like Valerie Plame when Bush was POTUS, are now some of the most fervent admirers of Fast Eddie Snowden today.....hmm....you think there might be some anti-Obama animus involved perhaps?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #37)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 05:48 PM

38. Links?

 

1. To the "same posters" who vilified Manning, who now praise Snowden?

2. Any DUers who vilified Plame?

3. Proof that Snowden has endangered US personnel.

4. Proof that Snowden doesn't "care" like Manning.

Thanks

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #38)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 06:28 PM

43. Re-read my statement please. And furthermore.....

 

1. I actually said *people on the 'Net in general*, not DU specifically(I actually noted an exception for DUers as well).

2. See above.

3. I wish I had some links on hand, I really do. Because this is *definitely* true, and this has been uncovered by people before.....at least to the extent that it can be at this rate, anyhow.

4. From what's been revealed at various times(though the more cowardly people in the MSM have tried to keep it quiet), it's been *painfully* obvious that he had some ulterior motives in mind. His own fervent support for Ron Paul should be a red flag: Most of his fellow acolytes have a pretty strong aversion to our President, much more so than they ever did Bush for the most part. Again, I don't have anything *right now*, right here, but this is also true, rest assured.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #43)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 06:33 PM

45. So this is your unsupported opinion.

 

Just wanted to clarify.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #45)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 06:39 PM

46. It's an opinion backed up by facts.

 

If you really want to find the truth so bad, search for it yourself.....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #46)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 06:49 PM

49. Uh huh. You made the statements and now can't back them up

 

Good luck with that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #46)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 08:53 AM

125. No, that's the point - you've completely failed to back it up with any facts at all

You've just typed some claims and said "go and find this yourself, if you're interested". Which is a good way of saying "I will never say anything interesting, so ignore what I say".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #43)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 11:14 PM

101. Prize for the Ron Paul mention. I love how he is used

like he is some sort of boogeyman. OMG RonPaul!!! As if he is something more than a sniveling nobody who could not garner enough votes to sneeze in. Good grief. What ulterior motive has the msm tried to keep quiet?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #101)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 07:07 AM

112. Ron Paul pees. Do you pee? Hold it or you hate America. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #112)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 08:07 AM

117. Is that Zen?

I always wonder what Zen is.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #37)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 06:28 PM

42. What's with the punctuation around she when referencing Chelsea Manning?

 

I think the rest of the blizzard of bull would play better to the balcony without that added accent.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #42)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 06:30 PM

44. It's not B.S., it's reality.

 

Also, do keep in mind that Manning was planning on undergoing a sex change; I kept this in mind out of respect for her decision, though I apologize if I accidentally gave off a negative impression.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #42)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 07:49 PM

62. it's just another petty way to try to discredit her

sad, really, on a Dem board

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #42)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 09:33 AM

129. True colors. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #42)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 12:51 PM

153. His mask slipped... n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #37)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 06:57 PM

50. 4 Real NSA whistle blowers

disagree with you and your paranoid delusion that this is just a anti Obama animus and have tried to tell its really about the abuse and lack of oversight of the NSA over the years

http://www.alternet.org/world/edward-snowden-patriot-ex-nsa-cia-fbi-and-justice-whistleblowers-meet-leaker-moscow

http://www.businessinsider.com/nsa-whistleblower-william-binney-was-right-2013-6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Tice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Andrews_Drake

Try to stay focused please on the subject and not change it about the outing of a CIA agent. which had nothing to do with whistle blowing.
Tell me the name of the Agent Snowden outed....???????

You have no proof or links on your claims



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ichingcarpenter (Reply #50)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 07:01 PM

51. They've been fooled, sadly. It does happen. Even Ellsberg, a guy I greatly respect got it wrong.

 

and have tried to tell its really about the abuse and lack of oversight of the NSA over the years


That can't be denied. But Snowden honestly had nothing positive to do with anything. And if even *these* guys have been taken in by his, and his handlers', little sob stories, even if not in full, it shows just how powerful the brainwashing may very well be....and that's not good news.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #51)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 07:12 PM

53. You make up history as it goes

which goes along with your brainwashing

Elsberg worked for the Rand corporation not the NSA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg

You don't even know his history.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ichingcarpenter (Reply #53)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 07:36 PM

56. I did NOT say or imply that Ellsberg worked for the NSA.....how did you come to that conclusion?

 

Furthermore, I do recall hearing Ellsberg speak in favor of Snowden at some point. As much as I respect the guy for his work and exposing Pentagon corruption, he just happened to be taken in by the other version of the official story, that of Snowden being a genuine whistleblower, which is simply totally false to begin with.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #51)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 07:17 PM

54. Oh so only AverageJoe is smart enough to not be duped by Snowden?

 

Those other NSA whistleblowers and others like Ellsberg are simply rubes who are "brainwashed"?

You don't provide a single supporting link for your statements and now want us to believe YOU over THEM?

*shakes head*

You do know that those of us who support Snowden actually want Obama to succeed. This isn't a slam on Obama. But he must take action on the vast overreach of the NSA. He could go down as a hero too if he'd stop acting so defensively and be more proactive on protecting our rights (and not appearing to endorse hegemonic global spying).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #54)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 07:40 PM

59. .....

 

You do know that those of us who support Snowden actually want Obama to succeed.


I'm glad *you* do, at least. But sadly, those who may support Snowden's actions on principle(as misguided as that stlll is, considering that he took this information to China AND Russia after leaving the States) are sadly a rather small minority and are largely relegated to liberal sites such as ours, DailyKos, and a few others. In terms of the internet as a whole, the good majority of his supporters have been right-wingers of the Paulite "libertarian" variety.

At least if we can agree on something, let us agree that the NSA has indeed fucked up and should be cleaned out of its crooks and incompetents.....but unfortunately, all that Snowden's supposed exposes have done, largely, is make Obama look bad for things that were nearly entirely Bush's fault.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #59)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:23 PM

73. Links?

 

To the source that Snowden gave any information to the Russians or Chinese?

Frankly if he had any info on his body he'd be in some gulag getting his fingernails ripped out now to confess instead of being relatively unmolested. I read his position today as indicative of sheer genius at outsmarting the worlds greatest voyeur since he's alive and free.

My daughter's a solid Dem but a Paul fan for his cannabis thoughts. One's political stand doesnt necessarily indicate anything these days especially when it comes to cannabis. Can you provide links as to why exactly Snowden likes Paul? I've never looked into that?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #73)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:42 PM

79. .....

 

Frankly if he had any info on his body he'd be in some gulag getting his fingernails ripped out now to confess instead of being relatively unmolested.


I read his position today as indicative of sheer genius at outsmarting the worlds greatest voyeur since he's alive and free.


Yeah.....yeah right. Snowden ain't no fuckin' genius, pal.


My daughter's a solid Dem but a Paul fan for his cannabis thoughts. One's political stand doesnt necessarily indicate anything these days especially when it comes to cannabis.


That may be true, but the thing is, many people do genuinely respect the guy but they don't know a whole lot about what he's about.

Also, as for the Paul support, this is what I've recovered so far:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/06/10/edward-snowden-apparently-a-ron-paul-supporter/
http://www.buzzfeed.com%2Fhunterschwarz%2Fedward-snowden-donated-to-raul-paul-in-2012&ei=mbRxUtXADNSgkAfyh4CYDQ&usg=AFQjCNFlcuoNXC-a188M6myj_nkUeImq2g&sig2=R8nlJiATYk8ogDcS5hZKAQ

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #51)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:15 PM

72. The pursuit of truth and logic is definately lost

and I have yet to find a group of people who don't give in to what they WANT something to be so easily instead of just taking things for exactly what they are. Snowden has done some good, there's no denying that. But he has also done some bad to our country. And there's a ton that we have absolutely no idea on what he's done. I have the same job title as Snowden and at no point would I consider the actions he has taken to be the right ones. Yes, hindsight is 20/20 and what not, but to so blindly call a hero...

Whistle-blowing is not as hard as it sounds, but unearthing the right things without unearthing the wrong ones is nearly impossible.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #28)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 07:48 PM

61. LOL

you using the word "fanboy"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Skittles (Reply #61)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:05 PM

66. And your point is? nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #28)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:46 PM

82. LOL, really? Where was the conversation about the NSA 6 months ago? Classic. n-t

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #28)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 05:26 AM

107. So you didn't read the OP? It says what is happening due to Snowden's leaks right there. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #28)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 08:59 AM

127. :facepalm:


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NealK (Reply #127)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 02:08 PM

155. Right back at'cha.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 03:10 PM

31. I'm still no supporter of what Snowden did.

Yes, some good has come from this. But some bad has come too. Whistle-blowing is not a universally good thing, especially when the documentation taken was provided to media without any scrutiny. The media has its own agenda (most of it is owned by big business).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neffernin (Reply #31)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 06:13 PM

41. The good includes a giant spotlight on the Constitutional violations of

 

a "too big to control" NSA. Now explain what bad has come from this.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #41)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 07:40 PM

58. The bad

Our worldwide credibility is taking a hit:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/28/politics/white-house-stopped-wiretaps/

It is possible that media is using this to advantage themselves, not the public:
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324823804579014611497378326

Our intelligence is being put at risk:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/officials-alert-foreign-services-that-snowden-has-documents-on-their-cooperation-with-us/2013/10/24/930ea85c-3b3e-11e3-a94f-b58017bfee6c_story.html

This hurts Obama's credibility:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57598928/nsa-abuses-contradict-obama-and-congressional-claims-of-oversight/

Snowden is using the information as collateral:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/greenwald-backs-calls-for-snowden-to-testify-in-germany-1.1577038

In an ideological world, yes, Snowden releases information and our government quickly and easily fixes the problem of the NSA collecting too much information. That being said, in the real world, the only way they will collect intel to protect against the dangers of this world is by collecting as much information that is humanly possible. They have datacenters capable of holding data storage that is beyond comprehension.

Now, we should not be living in a society of fear Ex: Taking off shoes at the airport is a scam because the one person who tried to use that as an act of terrorism failed miserably. Ex: Having to worry about the government intercepting your Facebook messages via NSA surveillance.

But at the same time Edward Snowden is a computer guy. He's that guy who helps you add the spacing you want on your word document at work. He isn't a spy. In no way does he know about all of what he took and released to the press (much of it was classified higher than he had normal access to, and far beyond his scope of expertise). There's no way of knowing he hasn't released some if not all of this information to Russia, or China. There's no way for us to know if some of that information isn't detailed information about the protection of the president, or other government leaders. If it was just letting people know some of what was going on with the NSA, Snowden wouldn't be in Russia right now. He isn't the first who has alerted people to this though he is the first to alert in such detail.

He can be your hero, but he isn't mine. He isn't a villain/traitor to me either, but I can't really agree with what was done in no way shape or form as what he did was not clear headed or done with any idea of the full implications.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neffernin (Reply #58)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:04 PM

65. All of this "bad" is only possible due to NSA malfeasance.

 

Personally, I'm very pleased that Snowden has shed some light into this very dark agency. Talk about undermining worldwide credibility. If anything Snowden is showing the path back towards credibility. Don't want to undermine credibility, then don't do this nasty shit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JEB (Reply #65)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:05 PM

67. That remains to be seen

as the extent of what has been leaked comes out. But most of it is, definitely.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neffernin (Reply #58)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 09:21 PM

90. Snowden didnt do the bad things that are being blamed on the USofA. Snowden didnt

 

spy on Chancellor Merkel, so dont blame him for the embarrassment. He just exposed the excesses of American spying and should not be blamed for the result. The embarrassment if from us doing the deed not from being exposed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #90)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 09:36 PM

92. Well answer this then

What did Edward Snowden take (exactly) and who (exactly) did he provide it to?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neffernin (Reply #92)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 09:48 PM

95. Here's what is interesting. The left's reaction when they found out about Snowden was something like

 

"Interesting, we need to look into this farther. It wouldnt surprise us if a spy agency without much oversight overstepped their bounds."

Here is the reaction of the Right-Wingers and their Conserva-Dem compatriots, "It's impossible that the NSA with their authoritarian leaders (right-wingers) Clapper and Alexander would run afoul of the Constitution and if anyone disagrees with me, they should be shot on the spot."

There are only two sides in this war. The left wants to get the NSA back operating within the Constitution and the Right-Wing that thinks that dictatorial authoritarians are not to be questioned. Hiel Clapper.

Whose side are you on, if you dare to answer?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #95)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 10:50 PM

100. You lost me

There are never only two sides to anything. I am not a Republican nor am I liberal, I am a free thinker. Because I do not agree with you does not mean I'm part of some weird neoconservative fake liberal revolution. Who are you, McCarthy? When asked logical questions you attack fast because you don't have a rebuttal. Its fine, you are entitled to your opinion, but really what you posted has gotta be trolling or belief that circular logic truly means anything in a real conversation.

So instead of personally attacking me, how about you answer my question? Do you know what Snowden took and what he provided to who? For all I know he provided a copy of all SSNs to Russia.

God its like talking to the Glenn Beck of liberals. And I didn't even think such a thing existed.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neffernin (Reply #100)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 11:31 PM

102. There are only two sides in a war. The only things in the middle of the road are a yellow line and

 

road kill.

I am not attacking you. You get to choose whose side you are on. Sounds like you choose the authoritarians like Clapper and Alexander. Tell me if I am wrong.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #102)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 11:41 PM

103. Ignored

You refused to answer my question and keep talking about Red herrings. This conversation was lost before it started it appears. Go troll someone else.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neffernin (Reply #103)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 08:18 AM

120. You make an attempt to drive the conversation by using pointed questions. Why dont

 

you give your point of view. You are choosing to side with the right-wing with their love for authoritarians Clapper and Alexander.

By the way, I dont know either what was taken or who it was given to. And neither do you. The Corp-Media is against Snowden, do you chose to side with them?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #120)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 04:06 PM

159. You are right

I turned what could have been a good point into a complex question, which is not a logically sound point to make in a debate. This would have been much stronger:

Since Snowden has provided some amount of documents to the press, how do we know he hasn't provided more to others? It is on this point that while some of the actions he has taken are rightfully characterized as good in unearthing NSA overreach, it is very possible that Snowden himself has committed overreaches that we do not know of yet. This is why there's any question of him being either a hero or traitor; at times the line is a very fine one to cross and very hard to define. There is no denying he has taken information and provided it to at least one third party, so it is very possible he has done it again.

While you kind sir, have added nothing new to the conversation except for all kinds of poor debate:

Take Clapper and Alexander, who have no more to do with Snowden's actions than Obama. This is the exact definition of a Red Herring:
Red herring. This means exactly what you think it means: introducing irrelevant facts or arguments to distract from the question at hand.



Or equating that since I believe that what Snowden did is still grey, you equate me to being a stealthy republican or whatever else it is you said (based on the fallacy above):
Straw man. This is the fallacy of refuting a caricatured or extreme version of somebody's argument, rather than the actual argument they've made. Often this fallacy involves putting words into somebody's mouth by saying they've made arguments they haven't actually made, in which case the straw man argument is a veiled version of argumentum ad logicam.



And you ask for my opinion, here it is (repeated from a post you replied to):
In an ideological world, yes, Snowden releases information and our government quickly and easily fixes the problem of the NSA collecting too much information. That being said, in the real world, the only way they will collect intel to protect against the dangers of this world is by collecting as much information that is humanly possible. They have datacenters capable of holding data storage that is beyond comprehension.

Now, we should not be living in a society of fear Ex: Taking off shoes at the airport is a scam because the one person who tried to use that as an act of terrorism failed miserably. Ex: Having to worry about the government intercepting your Facebook messages via NSA surveillance.

But at the same time Edward Snowden is a computer guy. He's that guy who helps you add the spacing you want on your word document at work. He isn't a spy. In no way does he know about all of what he took and released to the press (much of it was classified higher than he had normal access to, and far beyond his scope of expertise). There's no way of knowing he hasn't released some if not all of this information to Russia, or China. There's no way for us to know if some of that information isn't detailed information about the protection of the president, or other government leaders. If it was just letting people know some of what was going on with the NSA, Snowden wouldn't be in Russia right now. He isn't the first who has alerted people to this though he is the first to alert in such detail.

He can be your hero, but he isn't mine. He isn't a villain/traitor to me either, but I can't really agree with what was done in no way shape or form as what he did was not clear headed or done with any idea of the full implications.


I appreciate the exercise and consider myself more learned from the experience. Thank you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neffernin (Reply #159)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 04:11 PM

160. There are lots of words there but reading thru them all I can only come to the conclusion that you

 

are not a liberal. Seems DU is getting inundated with conservatives.

Go ahead an kiss the feet of Herr Clapper unt Herr Alexander the authoritarians that conservatives love to love.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neffernin (Reply #100)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 07:04 AM

111. Get used to it. This is a tough room when you dont follow the line.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 7962 (Reply #111)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 08:23 AM

121. Exactly. Conservatives get a work out here. DU is intended for "politically liberal" people.

 

conservatives seem to stumble all over themselves here. Usually they have no argument.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 7962 (Reply #111)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 09:57 AM

138. Isn't that whats supposed to separate us from conservatives though?

Not just being a party of lemmings who agree with what's decided by the brass, the party of science, logical thought. Party that is inclusive to all regardless of opinion as the dissenting opinion is seen as an integral part of the decision making process. I worked on the Kerry campaign for over two years and during that time this is what I saw in the party. Must admit the McCarthyism here is much beyond what I expected.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neffernin (Reply #138)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 02:51 PM

157. Look at the post above yours for an example

 

I agree with you, there should be room for discussion. But with WAY too many here, as soon as you offer an opinion that doesnt follow the group, you are now one of the following: troll, freeper, right-winger, tea party apologist, racist, etc.
There are a lot of cool people here and I've gotten to know a few of them pretty well over the past couple years. But the visceral reactions from others amaze me. "Big tent" doesnt mean much to them

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 7962 (Reply #157)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 04:15 PM

161. Well I suppose

You are ignoring this may be the only way I'll be able to stomach it. This forum has trolls like any other I'm seeing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neffernin (Reply #161)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 05:05 PM

162. They seem to "reveal" themselves pretty fast here and get deleted.

 

You'll see "name removed" many times.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neffernin (Reply #31)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:47 PM

83. The shit that has come out since is worth the leak. n-t

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to neffernin (Reply #31)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 11:43 PM

104. I'm glad there are courageous people who will step up and show us when large entities

 

are abusing their power.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 03:16 PM

32. !




***i love your OPz.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to xchrom (Reply #32)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 03:18 PM

33. Yours Too !!!

 




Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 03:29 PM

34. Ouch, I think you left a mark.


You can tell by the incredibly lame rebuttals in this thread.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marmar (Reply #34)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:10 PM

70. Reality Has A Well Known Liberal Bias...

 






Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marmar (Reply #34)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:35 PM

75. and... it's also kind of fun...

 

Shhh...


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 03:30 PM

35. K&R!

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 06:45 PM

48. WillyT, you should be more sympathetic towards those conservative-Dems among us.

 

They love them some authoritarian leaders like right-wingers General Clapper and General Alexander.

These poor lost conservative-Dems dont know whether to shite or go bonkers. They claim to hate the right-wing but love strong authoritarian leader so much they cant help but follow Clapper and Alexander. They hate Snowden because how could a low life peon dare speak out against the strong and powerful Clapper? These people claim to be Democrats, and the test is only asking what do you claim. But their ideologies align with the Clapper and Alexander right-wingers. They are killing the Democratic Party. We need to kick them back to the Republican Party where they belong along with Clapper and Alexander.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #48)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 07:02 PM

52. Somehow, I can't help but think most of the conserva-Dems are actually HAPPY with Snowden.......

 

It's those of us liberals that have found out the truth that are pissed off right now.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #52)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 09:12 PM

87. Sorry but I dont understand at all. The liberals are grateful because Snowden had the guts

 

to expose the authoritarian powers that do not have any oversight and operating out of control. The Conserva-Dems and their RW compatriots are spewing hatred for Snowden.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #87)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 09:43 PM

94. Conservatives who aren't lying to themselves have actually been OVERJOYED that Snowden struck out...

 

against the black fellow in the White House; and the conservatives *CLAIMING* to dislike the guy are only trying to cover their asses.

And those fellow liberals who still *are* applauding Snowden, are, sadly, pretty clueless at this point. Whatever small amounts of unintended good that may or may not have come out of this, Snowden's intentions were NOT pure at all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #94)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 09:56 PM

97. LOL. I love you guys that seem to know what "Snowden's intentions were". The left is applauding

 

Snowden because he opened Pandora's box and all the ghosts came rushing out. The right-wingers hate that. They love their authoritarian right-wing leaders in Herr General Clapper and Herr General Alexander. The right-wingers hate that Snowden pulled back the curtain. They prefer ignorance to truth.

There are two sides in this war the left that wants to see controls on the NSA back to adhering to the Constitution, and the Right-Wing that support Clapper and Alexander and want to put this all back under the bed. Which side are you on?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #48)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:02 PM

64. You're Correct... They're Sort Of Sensitive These Days...

 

Sorry...




Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Reply #64)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 09:15 PM

88. One poster in particular here, I wont mention any names, screamed denials for every

 

single new revelation. Saying, for example, that the NSA wasnt spying on Americans. Like he would know. His desperation was only to protect his carefully crafted denial bubble. He is a fraud here. He is not a "politically liberal" person.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:08 PM

69. No bill text available yet on Thomas

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to struggle4progress (Reply #69)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:14 PM

71. The Fact... That They Are Even Considering It... Is A Major Win...

 

Especially after the huge bi-partisan poo-pooing, by partisans of all sides.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Reply #71)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:33 PM

74. I think I'll wait to see what they're actually considering before I jump up and down cheering

Unfortunately, the prospects for real reform seem limited to me

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to struggle4progress (Reply #74)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:38 PM

78. Yeah... That Would Be The "Pragmatic" Thing To Do... Yet...

 

Other Senate co-sponsors include Sens. Mike Lee (R-Utah), Dick Durbin (D-Ill.), Dean Heller (R-Nev.), Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.), Tom Udall (D-N.M.) and Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.). In the House, the bill is backed by Reps. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.), Justin Amash (R-Mich.), Zoe Lofgren (D-Calif.) and Darrell Issa (R-Calif.).

The National Rifle Association, the Center for Democracy and Technology, the Constitution Project and other civil liberties groups have also endorsed the bill...


From the OP.

I ask you... when was the last time something like THAT happened ???


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Reply #78)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:54 PM

85. Dunno what it means without reading it. So far as I can tell, Sensenbrenner hasn't introduced it

yet in the House. There is proposed text available at Leahy's Senate website, with no bill number attached, hence presumably pre-introduction:

http://www.leahy.senate.gov/download/usa-freedom-act_-introduced-10-29-131

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to struggle4progress (Reply #85)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 09:05 AM

128. I think it's HR 3361

H.R.3361
Latest Title: To reform the authorities of the Federal Government to require the production of certain business records, conduct electronic surveillance, use pen registers and trap and trace devices, and use other forms of information gathering for foreign intelligence, counterterrorism, and criminal purposes, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Rep Sensenbrenner, F. James, Jr. [WI-5] (introduced 10/29/2013) Cosponsors (86)

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d113:1:./temp/~bdlM8v:@@@P

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #128)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 09:48 AM

135. That's probably it. It didn't show up on Sensenbrenner's Thomas page yesterday, and today

Thomas still doesn't have the text yet

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:37 PM

76. K&R !!!!!!!!!!! n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:43 PM

80. Waiting for Prosense to check in. Crickets! n-t

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Logical (Reply #80)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 08:56 PM

86. If ya dislike a DUer, mebbe ya oughta put the person on ignore, insteada attackin them

behind their back

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to struggle4progress (Reply #86)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 09:28 PM

91. This seems like it is pretty public actually. She has checked in I am sure. n-t

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Logical (Reply #91)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 09:54 PM

96. Why not talk about issues instead of attacking other DUers? cuz that just makes DU suck

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to struggle4progress (Reply #96)

Wed Oct 30, 2013, 10:02 PM

98. I totally agree, but find it ironic that you should say it. Maybe you should put them on ignore. nm

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rhett o rick (Reply #98)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 09:51 AM

136. I doubt you'll find any posts from me calling anybody out as in #80 upthread

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to struggle4progress (Reply #96)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 09:45 AM

134. Corporate propaganda makes DU suck. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Logical (Reply #91)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 09:43 AM

133. +1!!!

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Logical (Reply #80)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:26 AM

146. Zombie hordes of DU followers are waiting.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Logical (Reply #80)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 11:41 AM

149. Your obsession with ProSense borders on stalking. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scurrilous (Reply #149)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 11:50 AM

150. Find the last non-Snowden post I responded to Einstein! I call her...

 

Out when she need it. And will continue to

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scurrilous (Reply #149)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 03:49 PM

158. especially with the creepy pm he send her

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 05:31 AM

108. We have learned that the USA is spying. . .

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to B Calm (Reply #108)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 07:10 AM

113. Also that the rich are big meanies.

 

And that other countries are always better than ours.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #113)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:19 AM

144. You're conflating 'country' and 'government'

or more specifically, the policies of our government.

US citizens are responsible for the conduct of their own government. We have a duty to question its actions and take steps to curb its abuses, especially when those abuses have profound negative implications for the whole world. What other countries do is irrelevant, as long as they're not attacking us.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ronnie624 (Reply #144)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 12:43 PM

152. Questioning the government is essential, I agree.

 

But sometimes the questioning easily leads to hyperbole. Personally, I don't have a problem with phone metadata copies being retained by the NSA but I understand the point of view of some who do. For those, the proposed legislation in the OP is a step in the right direction but I doubt it will go anywhere.

The hyperbole comes in with the NSA 'sweeping up everything' statement. They are not downloading the Internet on a daily basis.

The other NSA stuff? Their job is to spy on other countries so I can't get worked up that they are doing a much better job at that than we imagined.

I just can't see 'Free Chancellor Merkel!' as much of a rallying cry.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 08:16 AM

119. I think Glenn and comrad eddie are communist spies.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 09:42 AM

131. *****The means do NOT justify the ends PERIOD! He COULD have done all that and not be traitor*******

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:06 AM

140. He's a HERO I tell ya ...a HERO!

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to L0oniX (Reply #140)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:10 AM

141. Not to his abandoned fiance and parents.

 

But they're probably on the NSA payroll so...
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #141)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:22 AM

145. ...and he abandoned the KiTTaH!

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to L0oniX (Reply #140)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 10:13 AM

143. The PAUL REVERE of the 21st century!!!



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Zorra (Reply #143)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 12:57 PM

154. Damned fucking right he's a hero.

We've had more time to see what came of the Snowden revelations, and what came out about Snowden himself.

He's a genuine fucking hero, and the authoritarians who spooge at the idea of supermaxing him can kiss my ass.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WillyT (Original post)

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 02:09 PM

156. No matter what you call him, (hero, traitor, something in the middle)

 

he HAS effected global policy. A direct effect.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread