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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIt's A Darn Good Thing All Those Snowden Revelations Came To Nothing...
Lawmakers propose USA Freedom Act to curb NSA’s powersBy Brendan Sasso - TheHill
10/29/13
<snip>
Dozens of lawmakers from both parties introduced legislation Tuesday to rein in the National Security Agency's spying powers. The USA Freedom Act, which has 16 co-sponsors in the Senate and more than 70 in the House, would end the agency's massive phone record collection program — one of the most controversial revelations from the leaks by Edward Snowden.
The bill was authored by Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.), chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and Rep. James Sensenbrenner Jr. (R-Wis.), the original author of the Patriot Act in 2001.
In a statement, Sensenbrenner said the Patriot Act has helped keep Americans safe, but that "somewhere along the way, the balance between security and privacy was lost." "It’s now time for the Judiciary committees to again come together in a bipartisan fashion to ensure the law is properly interpreted, past abuses are not repeated and American liberties are protected," he said.
Civil liberties groups cheered the introduction of the USA Freedom Act, saying it would help end the NSA's privacy violations.
"The last five months have proven that the NSA cannot be trusted with the surveillance authorities they have been given by a secret court without the knowledge or approval of the American people," Michelle Richardson, a lobbyist for the American Civil Liberties Union, said. "The only way to stop the NSA's collect-it-all mentality is for Congress to pass legislation that prohibits the intelligence community from engaging in the dragnet surveillance of Americans' communications."
Other Senate co-sponsors include Sens. Mike Lee (R-Utah), Dick Durbin (D-Ill.), Dean Heller (R-Nev.), Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.), Tom Udall (D-N.M.) and Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.). In the House, the bill is backed by Reps. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.), Justin Amash (R-Mich.), Zoe Lofgren (D-Calif.) and Darrell Issa (R-Calif.).
The National Rifle Association, the Center for Democracy and Technology, the Constitution Project and other civil liberties groups have also endorsed the bill...
<snip>
More: http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/331199-usa-freedom-act-would-curb-nsa-power
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nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)sad-cafe
(1,277 posts)information.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Thanks for this Willy!
Big K&R
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)I think PS went from 90K or so to breaking 100k post on Snowden alone.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
hootinholler
(26,451 posts)Bluegrass whatever got a pizza earlier in the week.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
hootinholler
(26,451 posts) Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts) 
dotymed
(5,610 posts)congress people called for the incarceration of Snowden for being a traitor?
What a sick bunch of "leaders(?)" we have.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)
Dr. Strange
(26,058 posts)How can you people ignore Snowden's garage boxes?!!
And the ballerina?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I'm sure plenty of men were transfixed on the ballerina.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)er, it will all come to nothing, HE'S A TRAITOR WAAAAAH WAAAAAH
The poor surveillance pimps, they were convinced of all these lies 
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)nothing but a Word formatting expert. 
Zorra
(27,670 posts)gets their information from the NSA.
That would certainly explain why healthcare.gov is FUBAR.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)All the money went to the maze of computers that keep Boundless Informant and its many brothers and sisters running merrily along at the NSA and our intelligence agencies.
After all, what is more important? Millions of Americans who cannot get health insurance and are doomed to bankruptcy if they or their children get sick or keeping a small clique of VIP Americans who enjoy all kinds of privileges including excellent health care at public expense that other Americans do not have?
Of course, the money has to go to the VIP clique. Only they can keep us "safe" so that they can we can be "free" to die in misery without decent medical insurance or access to a general practitioner.
Liberty and justice for all. Remember!
quakerboy
(14,807 posts)think about the potential cost savings if the converted the utah data center to running the ACA website, instead of storing all our phone calls and emails... I bet they even have the staff with enough know how to run it
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)If we ever were.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Monetary profit is what doing evil is primarily all about.
Buns_of_Fire
(19,083 posts)But then, I remembered how positively overrun the Homeland is with communists, socialists, terraists, people with non-lily-white skin, leftys, Islamists, old people, young people, middle-aged people, Buddists, Wiccans, journalists, teachers, writers, Occupy-ers, students, and zombies (I had to personally shoo two of them out from under the bed this morning!), and I thanked God that we had the legendary Starship Commander Alexander keeping us safe (and probably enjoying a well-deserved chuckle or two as he triggered DICK Cheney's remote sphincter control).
Also, your suggestion makes too much sense for the dullards charged with "oversight" of the facility.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)He will eventually be caught and tried for Attention Seeking.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)As though its a crime. And/or the refusal to acknowledge that its saved his life (and kept him from Mannings fate).
What's even funnier is when they accuse Greenwald of attention seeking when he's a journalist trying to sell his stories whereby attention is exactly what he needs!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)it is repeated by the same group over and over again. I guess some high paid schmuck working for HB Gary or some other 'security contractor' came up with the idea that accusing Whistle Blowers and Journalists of 'attention seekers' was a great way to discredit them.
I am amazed at the failure of these very expensive 'talking points' thought up by morons who think they are smarter than the general public.
They don't seem to get that ordinary people are far more discerning than their arrogant opinions of them.
THAT was a particularly stupid talking point. I doubt it ever convinced a single person to change their views.
Imagine spending millions to try to influence people and having the exact opposite effect of what you paid for.
All they have to do is look at the polls re Snowden to see how they wasted their money.
My advice to the 'Think Tanks' who come up with these 'talking points' is to just go with being honest. Their talking points are laughable, kindergarten level, at this point. Everyone knows the tactic and no one gives them one iota of credibility at this point.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)post counts that take the conservative side? Or is it me.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)I have also noticed a rash of posters on DU with high post counts taking the conservative side and being very open about it.
ReRe
(12,183 posts)... a pox on anyone who is educated with two degrees and trying to earn a living in this world. 
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)Hopefully Snowden will proceed to air other countries' dirty laundry and spur them into reform as well...(I hope to god he starts with Israel first)
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Other countries have functioning two, three, four party systems. If the surveillance is as prevalent in other countries as you and some others claim, the facts will be revealed.
leftstreet
(39,764 posts)LOL
DURec
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)and his girlfriend! And he STOLE those file!
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)...much less the 60 votes required to bypass the perennial filibuster.
A handful of true-blue believers allied with "I even wanted Osama to get away rather than Obama to get credit for killing him" Tea Party haters is not going to change the laws on anything.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
totodeinhere
(13,688 posts)won't vote for it. We all need to contact our senators and reps and politely demand that they vote for it. One of my senators is a co-sponsor but that still leaves me one senator and one congressman to work on.
cali
(114,904 posts)reality. Check out the vote on Amash's amendment to stop the mass collection of telephone data. Yeah, it was defeated- by a handful of votes.
I don't think you have a clue as to how sentiment in the Congress has been turning against the NSA. It's not hard to do a little basic research.
NealK
(6,986 posts)It should read: Alternate Reality Based Community.
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)This is one place where my interminable arguments with echo-chamber aficionados makes them come to hard, inescapable, truths.
Either the NSA will be got rid of, or it won't.
My bet is that it won't. Not only that, but my bet is that, aside from small tweaks to the law that Pelosi already put on the books five years ago to reign in the excesses of the Bush years, it will remain almost completely unchanged.
The U.S. has had signal intelligence since the Presidency of George Washington. In fact, Washington spent 13% of his budget on intelligence, while today the total federal budget spent on intelligence is less than 6%.
So do you agree, Mr. "Alternate Reality" that if you're still whining about this a year from now, that YOU are the one who is living it?
YES? Or in the alternative... NO?
By the way, my tag-line is meant as a slam against Karl Rove. That there are people on the left who also find themselves arguing with reality is too sad to be funny.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
dtom67
(634 posts)does it seem questionable that ANY oversight apparatus will actually be effective in curtailing abuse? The only thing that would change my opinion would be strong laws to protect whistleblowers . Getting rid of ndaa and patriot act would help.
my basic view is that the spying is mostly government subsidized corporate espionage ;used primarily to benefit the Wealthy Elite. Terrorism is just an excuse, and would probably be better fought by removing the interests of those Elites ( and our genitalia ) from our foreign policy.
Maybe I should be hopeful, but I'm not ......
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)
bvar22
(39,909 posts)The propagandists will say anything to protect the Status Quo,
and it is getting worse.
Nothing to see here, move along.
.
JEB
(4,748 posts)than out three branches of government combined.
neffernin
(275 posts)given Snowden himself is far from being a hero
JEB
(4,748 posts)than the NSA apologists or the majority of our money grubbing sellout politicians.
JEB
(4,748 posts)Sorry, I really did laugh at that one. Public opinion polls mean little to nothing in this world. 1/8th of americans still think Obama is Muslim.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)neffernin
(275 posts)in this case I mean its sad that his file dump to the Guardian has been more productive at getting things done than our congress since Obama's first mid-term election . Especially this current congress. If only Franken would have been in his seat sooner, then that supermajority would have gotten even more done.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)...our "Democracy" would be in much better shape.
I pray that I too would have the courage To-Do-the-Right-Thing in that situation.
They ARE the Watchdogs of Our Democracy.
Rampant Government Secrecy and Democracy can NOT co-exist.
It would have been much easier for Manning & Snowden to have kept their mouth shut,
do what they were told, not ask questions, collect the pay check, and take the week end off.
That makes them HEROES of our Democracy in MY book.
You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]
kiva
(4,373 posts)what about his ballerina girlfriend? Have you no sense of compassion or decency? And don't forget those boxes in his garage.
hootinholler
(26,451 posts)There was a guy with a picture of Obama with a hitler mustache at the rally supporting this bill!
I'm glad that dick is gone.
Uncle Joe
(64,707 posts)Thanks for the thread, WillyT.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Snowden did *nothing* beneficial, man. I'm sorry if this offends the Snowden fanboys out there, but it's the damn truth. We should instead be thanking *actual* whistleblowers & others who have tried to curb some of the very real overreaches of power by the NSA over the years.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)will pass the test of time even now after all the other whistle blowers were ignored and said Snowden did the right thing that brought the problem to its head.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Even now, there's been a concerted effort to paint Snowden as a "hero" by the crooks manipulating the mass media. Funny thing is, just 3 years ago, the then Bradley Manning pulled his own schtick and was almost *immediately* vilified
mainly by most of the very same people lauding Snowden now!)....and unlike Snowden, Manning actually truly believed he was doing the right thing. Now *she*, as Chelsea Manning, is serving 50+ years in prison, and she did FAR less damage than Snowden. Snowden, on the other hand, knew damn well he was putting U.S. personnel at risk.....and he simply didn't care.
And frankly, I find it all too disturbing that in general, outside of a few liberal sites like DU(who tend to be more principled) many of very same people who condemned *actual* whistleblowers like Valerie Plame when Bush was POTUS, are now some of the most fervent admirers of Fast Eddie Snowden today.....hmm....you think there might be some anti-Obama animus involved perhaps?
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)1. To the "same posters" who vilified Manning, who now praise Snowden?
2. Any DUers who vilified Plame?
3. Proof that Snowden has endangered US personnel.
4. Proof that Snowden doesn't "care" like Manning.
Thanks
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)1. I actually said *people on the 'Net in general*, not DU specifically(I actually noted an exception for DUers as well).
2. See above.
3. I wish I had some links on hand, I really do. Because this is *definitely* true, and this has been uncovered by people before.....at least to the extent that it can be at this rate, anyhow.
4. From what's been revealed at various times(though the more cowardly people in the MSM have tried to keep it quiet), it's been *painfully* obvious that he had some ulterior motives in mind. His own fervent support for Ron Paul should be a red flag: Most of his fellow acolytes have a pretty strong aversion to our President, much more so than they ever did Bush for the most part. Again, I don't have anything *right now*, right here, but this is also true, rest assured.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Just wanted to clarify.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)If you really want to find the truth so bad, search for it yourself.....
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Good luck with that.
muriel_volestrangler
(105,922 posts)You've just typed some claims and said "go and find this yourself, if you're interested". Which is a good way of saying "I will never say anything interesting, so ignore what I say".
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)like he is some sort of boogeyman. OMG RonPaul!!! As if he is something more than a sniveling nobody who could not garner enough votes to sneeze in. Good grief. What ulterior motive has the msm tried to keep quiet?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)I always wonder what Zen is.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)I think the rest of the blizzard of bull would play better to the balcony without that added accent.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Also, do keep in mind that Manning was planning on undergoing a sex change; I kept this in mind out of respect for her decision, though I apologize if I accidentally gave off a negative impression.
Skittles
(170,504 posts)sad, really, on a Dem board
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)disagree with you and your paranoid delusion that this is just a anti Obama animus and have tried to tell its really about the abuse and lack of oversight of the NSA over the years
http://www.alternet.org/world/edward-snowden-patriot-ex-nsa-cia-fbi-and-justice-whistleblowers-meet-leaker-moscow
http://www.businessinsider.com/nsa-whistleblower-william-binney-was-right-2013-6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Tice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Andrews_Drake
Try to stay focused please on the subject and not change it about the outing of a CIA agent. which had nothing to do with whistle blowing.
Tell me the name of the Agent Snowden outed....???????
You have no proof or links on your claims
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)and have tried to tell its really about the abuse and lack of oversight of the NSA over the years
That can't be denied. But Snowden honestly had nothing positive to do with anything. And if even *these* guys have been taken in by his, and his handlers', little sob stories, even if not in full, it shows just how powerful the brainwashing may very well be....and that's not good news.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)which goes along with your brainwashing
Elsberg worked for the Rand corporation not the NSA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg
You don't even know his history.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Furthermore, I do recall hearing Ellsberg speak in favor of Snowden at some point. As much as I respect the guy for his work and exposing Pentagon corruption, he just happened to be taken in by the other version of the official story, that of Snowden being a genuine whistleblower, which is simply totally false to begin with.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Those other NSA whistleblowers and others like Ellsberg are simply rubes who are "brainwashed"?
You don't provide a single supporting link for your statements and now want us to believe YOU over THEM?
*shakes head*
You do know that those of us who support Snowden actually want Obama to succeed. This isn't a slam on Obama. But he must take action on the vast overreach of the NSA. He could go down as a hero too if he'd stop acting so defensively and be more proactive on protecting our rights (and not appearing to endorse hegemonic global spying).
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)You do know that those of us who support Snowden actually want Obama to succeed.
I'm glad *you* do, at least. But sadly, those who may support Snowden's actions on principle(as misguided as that stlll is, considering that he took this information to China AND Russia after leaving the States) are sadly a rather small minority and are largely relegated to liberal sites such as ours, DailyKos, and a few others. In terms of the internet as a whole, the good majority of his supporters have been right-wingers of the Paulite "libertarian" variety.
At least if we can agree on something, let us agree that the NSA has indeed fucked up and should be cleaned out of its crooks and incompetents.....but unfortunately, all that Snowden's supposed exposes have done, largely, is make Obama look bad for things that were nearly entirely Bush's fault.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)To the source that Snowden gave any information to the Russians or Chinese?
Frankly if he had any info on his body he'd be in some gulag getting his fingernails ripped out now to confess instead of being relatively unmolested. I read his position today as indicative of sheer genius at outsmarting the worlds greatest voyeur since he's alive and free.
My daughter's a solid Dem but a Paul fan for his cannabis thoughts. One's political stand doesnt necessarily indicate anything these days especially when it comes to cannabis. Can you provide links as to why exactly Snowden likes Paul? I've never looked into that?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Frankly if he had any info on his body he'd be in some gulag getting his fingernails ripped out now to confess instead of being relatively unmolested.
I read his position today as indicative of sheer genius at outsmarting the worlds greatest voyeur since he's alive and free.
Yeah.....yeah right. Snowden ain't no fuckin' genius, pal.
My daughter's a solid Dem but a Paul fan for his cannabis thoughts. One's political stand doesnt necessarily indicate anything these days especially when it comes to cannabis.
That may be true, but the thing is, many people do genuinely respect the guy but they don't know a whole lot about what he's about.
Also, as for the Paul support, this is what I've recovered so far:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/06/10/edward-snowden-apparently-a-ron-paul-supporter/
http://www.buzzfeed.com%2Fhunterschwarz%2Fedward-snowden-donated-to-raul-paul-in-2012&ei=mbRxUtXADNSgkAfyh4CYDQ&usg=AFQjCNFlcuoNXC-a188M6myj_nkUeImq2g&sig2=R8nlJiATYk8ogDcS5hZKAQ
neffernin
(275 posts)and I have yet to find a group of people who don't give in to what they WANT something to be so easily instead of just taking things for exactly what they are. Snowden has done some good, there's no denying that. But he has also done some bad to our country. And there's a ton that we have absolutely no idea on what he's done. I have the same job title as Snowden and at no point would I consider the actions he has taken to be the right ones. Yes, hindsight is 20/20 and what not, but to so blindly call a hero...
Whistle-blowing is not as hard as it sounds, but unearthing the right things without unearthing the wrong ones is nearly impossible.
Skittles
(170,504 posts)you using the word "fanboy"
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)
cui bono
(19,926 posts)NealK
(6,986 posts)
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)
neffernin
(275 posts)Yes, some good has come from this. But some bad has come too. Whistle-blowing is not a universally good thing, especially when the documentation taken was provided to media without any scrutiny. The media has its own agenda (most of it is owned by big business).
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)a "too big to control" NSA. Now explain what bad has come from this.
neffernin
(275 posts)Our worldwide credibility is taking a hit:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/28/politics/white-house-stopped-wiretaps/
It is possible that media is using this to advantage themselves, not the public:
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324823804579014611497378326
Our intelligence is being put at risk:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/officials-alert-foreign-services-that-snowden-has-documents-on-their-cooperation-with-us/2013/10/24/930ea85c-3b3e-11e3-a94f-b58017bfee6c_story.html
This hurts Obama's credibility:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57598928/nsa-abuses-contradict-obama-and-congressional-claims-of-oversight/
Snowden is using the information as collateral:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/greenwald-backs-calls-for-snowden-to-testify-in-germany-1.1577038
In an ideological world, yes, Snowden releases information and our government quickly and easily fixes the problem of the NSA collecting too much information. That being said, in the real world, the only way they will collect intel to protect against the dangers of this world is by collecting as much information that is humanly possible. They have datacenters capable of holding data storage that is beyond comprehension.
Now, we should not be living in a society of fear Ex: Taking off shoes at the airport is a scam because the one person who tried to use that as an act of terrorism failed miserably. Ex: Having to worry about the government intercepting your Facebook messages via NSA surveillance.
But at the same time Edward Snowden is a computer guy. He's that guy who helps you add the spacing you want on your word document at work. He isn't a spy. In no way does he know about all of what he took and released to the press (much of it was classified higher than he had normal access to, and far beyond his scope of expertise). There's no way of knowing he hasn't released some if not all of this information to Russia, or China. There's no way for us to know if some of that information isn't detailed information about the protection of the president, or other government leaders. If it was just letting people know some of what was going on with the NSA, Snowden wouldn't be in Russia right now. He isn't the first who has alerted people to this though he is the first to alert in such detail.
He can be your hero, but he isn't mine. He isn't a villain/traitor to me either, but I can't really agree with what was done in no way shape or form as what he did was not clear headed or done with any idea of the full implications.
JEB
(4,748 posts)Personally, I'm very pleased that Snowden has shed some light into this very dark agency. Talk about undermining worldwide credibility. If anything Snowden is showing the path back towards credibility. Don't want to undermine credibility, then don't do this nasty shit.
neffernin
(275 posts)as the extent of what has been leaked comes out. But most of it is, definitely.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)spy on Chancellor Merkel, so dont blame him for the embarrassment. He just exposed the excesses of American spying and should not be blamed for the result. The embarrassment if from us doing the deed not from being exposed.
neffernin
(275 posts)What did Edward Snowden take (exactly) and who (exactly) did he provide it to?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)"Interesting, we need to look into this farther. It wouldnt surprise us if a spy agency without much oversight overstepped their bounds."
Here is the reaction of the Right-Wingers and their Conserva-Dem compatriots, "It's impossible that the NSA with their authoritarian leaders (right-wingers) Clapper and Alexander would run afoul of the Constitution and if anyone disagrees with me, they should be shot on the spot."
There are only two sides in this war. The left wants to get the NSA back operating within the Constitution and the Right-Wing that thinks that dictatorial authoritarians are not to be questioned. Hiel Clapper.
Whose side are you on, if you dare to answer?
neffernin
(275 posts)There are never only two sides to anything. I am not a Republican nor am I liberal, I am a free thinker. Because I do not agree with you does not mean I'm part of some weird neoconservative fake liberal revolution. Who are you, McCarthy? When asked logical questions you attack fast because you don't have a rebuttal. Its fine, you are entitled to your opinion, but really what you posted has gotta be trolling or belief that circular logic truly means anything in a real conversation.
So instead of personally attacking me, how about you answer my question? Do you know what Snowden took and what he provided to who? For all I know he provided a copy of all SSNs to Russia.
God its like talking to the Glenn Beck of liberals. And I didn't even think such a thing existed.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)road kill.
I am not attacking you. You get to choose whose side you are on. Sounds like you choose the authoritarians like Clapper and Alexander. Tell me if I am wrong.
neffernin
(275 posts)You refused to answer my question and keep talking about Red herrings. This conversation was lost before it started it appears. Go troll someone else.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)you give your point of view. You are choosing to side with the right-wing with their love for authoritarians Clapper and Alexander.
By the way, I dont know either what was taken or who it was given to. And neither do you. The Corp-Media is against Snowden, do you chose to side with them?
neffernin
(275 posts)I turned what could have been a good point into a complex question, which is not a logically sound point to make in a debate. This would have been much stronger:
Since Snowden has provided some amount of documents to the press, how do we know he hasn't provided more to others? It is on this point that while some of the actions he has taken are rightfully characterized as good in unearthing NSA overreach, it is very possible that Snowden himself has committed overreaches that we do not know of yet. This is why there's any question of him being either a hero or traitor; at times the line is a very fine one to cross and very hard to define. There is no denying he has taken information and provided it to at least one third party, so it is very possible he has done it again.
While you kind sir, have added nothing new to the conversation except for all kinds of poor debate:
Take Clapper and Alexander, who have no more to do with Snowden's actions than Obama. This is the exact definition of a Red Herring:
Red herring. This means exactly what you think it means: introducing irrelevant facts or arguments to distract from the question at hand.
Or equating that since I believe that what Snowden did is still grey, you equate me to being a stealthy republican or whatever else it is you said (based on the fallacy above):
Straw man. This is the fallacy of refuting a caricatured or extreme version of somebody's argument, rather than the actual argument they've made. Often this fallacy involves putting words into somebody's mouth by saying they've made arguments they haven't actually made, in which case the straw man argument is a veiled version of argumentum ad logicam.
And you ask for my opinion, here it is (repeated from a post you replied to):
In an ideological world, yes, Snowden releases information and our government quickly and easily fixes the problem of the NSA collecting too much information. That being said, in the real world, the only way they will collect intel to protect against the dangers of this world is by collecting as much information that is humanly possible. They have datacenters capable of holding data storage that is beyond comprehension.
Now, we should not be living in a society of fear Ex: Taking off shoes at the airport is a scam because the one person who tried to use that as an act of terrorism failed miserably. Ex: Having to worry about the government intercepting your Facebook messages via NSA surveillance.
But at the same time Edward Snowden is a computer guy. He's that guy who helps you add the spacing you want on your word document at work. He isn't a spy. In no way does he know about all of what he took and released to the press (much of it was classified higher than he had normal access to, and far beyond his scope of expertise). There's no way of knowing he hasn't released some if not all of this information to Russia, or China. There's no way for us to know if some of that information isn't detailed information about the protection of the president, or other government leaders. If it was just letting people know some of what was going on with the NSA, Snowden wouldn't be in Russia right now. He isn't the first who has alerted people to this though he is the first to alert in such detail.
He can be your hero, but he isn't mine. He isn't a villain/traitor to me either, but I can't really agree with what was done in no way shape or form as what he did was not clear headed or done with any idea of the full implications.
I appreciate the exercise and consider myself more learned from the experience. Thank you.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)are not a liberal. Seems DU is getting inundated with conservatives.
Go ahead an kiss the feet of Herr Clapper unt Herr Alexander the authoritarians that conservatives love to love.
7962
(11,841 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)conservatives seem to stumble all over themselves here. Usually they have no argument.
neffernin
(275 posts)Not just being a party of lemmings who agree with what's decided by the brass, the party of science, logical thought. Party that is inclusive to all regardless of opinion as the dissenting opinion is seen as an integral part of the decision making process. I worked on the Kerry campaign for over two years and during that time this is what I saw in the party. Must admit the McCarthyism here is much beyond what I expected.
7962
(11,841 posts)I agree with you, there should be room for discussion. But with WAY too many here, as soon as you offer an opinion that doesnt follow the group, you are now one of the following: troll, freeper, right-winger, tea party apologist, racist, etc.
There are a lot of cool people here and I've gotten to know a few of them pretty well over the past couple years. But the visceral reactions from others amaze me. "Big tent" doesnt mean much to them
neffernin
(275 posts)You are ignoring this may be the only way I'll be able to stomach it. This forum has trolls like any other I'm seeing.
7962
(11,841 posts)You'll see "name removed" many times.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)are abusing their power.
***i love your OPz.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
marmar
(79,503 posts)You can tell by the incredibly lame rebuttals in this thread.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
WillyT
(72,631 posts)Shhh...
felix_numinous
(5,198 posts)Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)They love them some authoritarian leaders like right-wingers General Clapper and General Alexander.
These poor lost conservative-Dems dont know whether to shite or go bonkers. They claim to hate the right-wing but love strong authoritarian leader so much they cant help but follow Clapper and Alexander. They hate Snowden because how could a low life peon dare speak out against the strong and powerful Clapper? These people claim to be Democrats, and the test is only asking what do you claim. But their ideologies align with the Clapper and Alexander right-wingers. They are killing the Democratic Party. We need to kick them back to the Republican Party where they belong along with Clapper and Alexander.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)It's those of us liberals that have found out the truth that are pissed off right now.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)to expose the authoritarian powers that do not have any oversight and operating out of control. The Conserva-Dems and their RW compatriots are spewing hatred for Snowden.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)against the black fellow in the White House; and the conservatives *CLAIMING* to dislike the guy are only trying to cover their asses.
And those fellow liberals who still *are* applauding Snowden, are, sadly, pretty clueless at this point. Whatever small amounts of unintended good that may or may not have come out of this, Snowden's intentions were NOT pure at all.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Snowden because he opened Pandora's box and all the ghosts came rushing out. The right-wingers hate that. They love their authoritarian right-wing leaders in Herr General Clapper and Herr General Alexander. The right-wingers hate that Snowden pulled back the curtain. They prefer ignorance to truth.
There are two sides in this war the left that wants to see controls on the NSA back to adhering to the Constitution, and the Right-Wing that support Clapper and Alexander and want to put this all back under the bed. Which side are you on?
WillyT
(72,631 posts)Sorry...
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)single new revelation. Saying, for example, that the NSA wasnt spying on Americans. Like he would know. His desperation was only to protect his carefully crafted denial bubble. He is a fraud here. He is not a "politically liberal" person.
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)Especially after the huge bi-partisan poo-pooing, by partisans of all sides.
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)Unfortunately, the prospects for real reform seem limited to me
WillyT
(72,631 posts)The National Rifle Association, the Center for Democracy and Technology, the Constitution Project and other civil liberties groups have also endorsed the bill...
From the OP.
I ask you... when was the last time something like THAT happened ???
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)yet in the House. There is proposed text available at Leahy's Senate website, with no bill number attached, hence presumably pre-introduction:
http://www.leahy.senate.gov/download/usa-freedom-act_-introduced-10-29-131
muriel_volestrangler
(105,922 posts)Latest Title: To reform the authorities of the Federal Government to require the production of certain business records, conduct electronic surveillance, use pen registers and trap and trace devices, and use other forms of information gathering for foreign intelligence, counterterrorism, and criminal purposes, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Rep Sensenbrenner, F. James, Jr. [WI-5] (introduced 10/29/2013) Cosponsors (86)
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d113:1:./temp/~bdlM8v:@@@P
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)Thomas still doesn't have the text yet
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)behind their back
Logical
(22,457 posts)struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Out when she need it. And will continue to
JI7
(93,402 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)And that other countries are always better than ours.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)or more specifically, the policies of our government.
US citizens are responsible for the conduct of their own government. We have a duty to question its actions and take steps to curb its abuses, especially when those abuses have profound negative implications for the whole world. What other countries do is irrelevant, as long as they're not attacking us.
randome
(34,845 posts)But sometimes the questioning easily leads to hyperbole. Personally, I don't have a problem with phone metadata copies being retained by the NSA but I understand the point of view of some who do. For those, the proposed legislation in the OP is a step in the right direction but I doubt it will go anywhere.
The hyperbole comes in with the NSA 'sweeping up everything' statement. They are not downloading the Internet on a daily basis.
The other NSA stuff? Their job is to spy on other countries so I can't get worked up that they are doing a much better job at that than we imagined.
I just can't see 'Free Chancellor Merkel!' as much of a rallying cry.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
stonecutter357
(13,018 posts)
uponit7771
(93,512 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts) randome
(34,845 posts)But they're probably on the NSA payroll so...
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)
Zorra
(27,670 posts)
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)We've had more time to see what came of the Snowden revelations, and what came out about Snowden himself.
He's a genuine fucking hero, and the authoritarians who spooge at the idea of supermaxing him can kiss my ass.
Rex
(65,616 posts)he HAS effected global policy. A direct effect.