General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsYou know for those who celebrate Christmas,
Jesus wasn't even born of December 25th!
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)who blindly celebrate more as a cultural holiday ignoring it's historical and religious significance.
MagnumUK
(37 posts)even born?
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Historical elements[edit]
Existence[edit]
Most modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and most biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[7][9][10][30][31][32] In antiquity, the existence of Jesus was never denied by those who opposed Christianity.[33][34] There is, however, widespread disagreement among scholars on the details of the life of Jesus mentioned in the gospel narratives, and on the meaning of his teachings.[11] Scholars differ on the historicity of specific episodes described in the Biblical accounts of Jesus,[11] and the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[12][13][14]
Robert E. Van Voorst states that the idea of the non-historicity of the existence of Jesus has always been controversial, and has consistently failed to convince virtually all scholars of many disciplines.[30] Geoffrey Blainey notes that a few scholars have argued that Jesus did not exist, but writes that Jesus' life was in fact "astonishingly documented" by the standards of the time - more so than any of his contemporaries - with numerous books, stories and memoirs written about him. The problem for the historian, wrote Blainey, is not therefore, determining whether Jesus actually existed, but rather in considering the "sheer multitude of detail and its inconsistencies and contradictions".[35] Although a very small number of modern scholars argue that Jesus never existed, that view is a distinct minority and virtually all scholars consider theories that Jesus' existence was a Christian invention as implausible.[11][36] This is different to supernatural or miraculous claims about Jesus, which historians tend to look on as questions of faith, rather than historical fact.[37]
The sources for the historicity of Jesus are mainly Christian sources, but there are some mentions also in a few non-Christian Jewish and Greco-Roman sources, which have been used in historical analyses of the existence of Jesus.[38] These include the works of 1st-century Roman historians Josephus and Tacitus.[38][39]
Jesus as myth[edit]
Main article: Christ myth theory
The Christ myth theory (also known as the "Jesus myth theory" or "Jesus mythicism" is the proposition that Jesus never existed in any form but was invented by the Christian community around 100 CE. The idea was first put forward in the late 18th century and developed and popularised in the 19th century by Bruno Bauer.[40]
A few contemporary writers, notably G. A. Wells, Richard Carrier, Earl Doherty and Robert M. Price[41] still regard the question of whether Jesus ever existed as open. This position is not held by most professional historians, nor the vast majority of New Testament scholars.[9][42][43][44] Richard Dawkins wrote that while Jesus probably existed, it is "possible to mount a serious, though not widely supported, historical case that Jesus never lived at all."[45]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus#Existence
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)There is zero non-suspect evidence outside the Bible of the historical evidence of Jesus. Now, a lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, but to go back and say "oh, Biblical scholars who study the Bible all agree that Jesus existed... after all, it says so right in the Bible"
that's not really proof.
The Josephus account is the ONLY non-Biblical piece of data, and it is widely considered suspect because, among other things, the tone was wildly off for allegedly coming from a prominent Jewish historian of the time.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)According to Wikipedia's sources. Which are scholarly articless. Name half a dozen published peer reviewd historians who argue Jesus didnt exist. They are about as plentiful as scientists who argue their is no man made climate change. Even richard dawkins knows Jesus existed. The mythicist argument is fringe stuff.
http://old.richarddawkins.net/articles/20
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Again, the objective historical evidence is simply not there. Sorry if that fact upsets you, for whatever reason.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Know was too strong a word I agree.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)"historians" who are not, again, "Biblical Scholars".
Dare I say it again, "Biblical Scholars" have sort of a tautological vested interest in the validity of the Scholarlyness of the Bible. But the Josephus account is highly suspect, and all the other "evidence" is in the NT.
It's a pointless debate, which is probably why most Historians who aren't somehow already invested in religious narratives, don't touch it. If you want to study Rome in the time of Caesar and Augustus, "Jesus" isn't on the radar.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)And it isnt a burning topic because they almost universaly accept the man lived.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)"Not wanting to go there" is not the same thing as "accepting that the man lived".
Also, there's nowhere in the Dawkins piece that says "Jesus had an objective historical existence blah blah blah". Dawkins is talking about certain broad moral take-aways that are commonly attributed to Jesus, although some of them can be traced back to Buddha or other traditions as well.
He is not, in that article, weighing in on the historical debate.
But again, it's a pointless argument. "He did SO live!" Okay, whatever. There's no evidence outside the Bible. And the Bible is not exactly an infallible document, from where I sit.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Amd the argument that Jesus didn't even live is not the consensus of historians and represents a fringe even among ouspoken atheists. It just is.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Because the objective evidence for the existence of "Jesus" is not there.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)When Bart Ermhan wrote his book, Did Jesus Exist? The complaint among atheists was that he was setting up a stawman. "I don't know any atheists who say Jesus didn't exist" was the complaint. I guess the atheists quoted in this article should tune in to DU's religion page. See in the real world it is considered an insult and a strawman among most atheists scholars to even be acused of thinking Jesus wasn't an actaul person. Funny, that.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1400465
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)it still wouldn't mean that the objective Historical evidence is there.
Why don't you go track down the objective historical evidence, rather than sitting here engaging in endless iterations of "everyone says it so it MUST be TRRRUEEE!"
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Just most historians and other scholars of antiquity.
Do you think Socrates existed?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)in the form of contemporary accounts from the time of his alleged existence, as opposed to retroactive stories told centuries later.
You seem far more emotionally invested in this "debate", such as it is, than I am. I don't need to believe "Jesus" DID "exist", or didn't. Actually, I think it's a compelling story, which -regardless of whether or not a man like that actually followed that story trajectory in Nazareth/Galillee/Jerusalem, or not- I am sure contributed to its popularity in the ensuing centuries.
But my predisposition towards the scientific method and evidence-based analysis means I am not inclined to give "special treatment" to ANY idea or assertion, and if the assertion is that "Jesus" had an objective existence roughly akin to that which is told in the NT, the evidence outside the bible just isn't there.
That doesn't mean he DIDN'T exist- and the huffpo article you link is far more focused on debunking arguments comprising "no he definitely did not" than it is providing any additional evidence that, yes, he did. Saying "Oh the arguments saying he didn't are ideological and the people making them are silly pooopy-heads" does not contribute one factual iota to any claims that yes, he did.
I don't know, that's the bottom line: these alleged events were 2000 years ago. I do find it interesting, from a psychological standpoint, any time I see what I perceive as clothesless emperor freaking-outage.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)I am not arguing that Jesus existed. OK? Only that the general consensus among historians is that he did. Yes I am a Christian. But I am not a fundie who thinks everyone has to agree with me. Ok?. I have a degree in history and I have done a lot of reading on this subject. I reject any pseudo-historian claiming that Jesus walked on water or preformed any miracles. That is not history. No historian will go on the record and claim he did. But like Socrates, Jesus of Nazareth is thought by most historians to have been a real person. That could change. I am from a religious tradition that accepts science and othet scholarly persuits even if the condradict our beliefs. I am not trying to push religion here.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)And I'm saying that if you take away the accounts of the New Testament, there's not much evidence to back up the assertion, and what evidence there is- like the Josephus stuff- is considered highly suspect by the same Historians who agree on Jesus's existence.
They're taking the same data and coming to a different conclusion.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)LAGC
(5,330 posts)Two seemingly opposing viewpoints, settled amicably in the end.
Time for a group hug:
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)I appreciate greatly your last two posts. The only things I accept about jesus as a historian are that he was baptised by John the baptist and crucified under Pontius Pilate. That is all I would be willing to vouch for. If you would like to debate the existence of Jesus as a historical figure I would be willing to do it on the religion page. We would have to give ourselves time to respond, etc. If you dont that is cool too. These things can be exhausting as shit.But you seem to doubt the existence of the historical Jesus while I accept it. This isn't a call out. Send me a PM and we will lay the ground rules. I only suggest it because it would make ME do some research and would be fun. Please excuse phne sent typos.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)"the world may never know".
sakabatou
(42,152 posts)Before 4 BCE (Matthew 2:1, Luke 1:5-31) or after 6 CE (Luke 2:1-4)?
napkinz
(17,199 posts)Petrushka
(3,709 posts). . . . . . some of us celebrate His conception--rather than His birth--on December 25th.
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)When Jesus was born, there were shepherds in the fields watching their flocks at night. Shepherds, in the Middle East at that time, kept their flocks in the fields only from Spring to Fall but not during the Winter months when they sheltered them from the rain and cold---which makes December 25th the unlikely date of His birth. If, however, Jesus was conceived in December, some might celebrate His birth in September during the Feast of Booths.
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 2, 2013, 09:34 PM - Edit history (1)
the Feast of the Immaculate Conception is December 8th
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Tree-Hugger
(3,370 posts)It does not refer to the conception of Jesus.
Tree-Hugger
(3,370 posts)Mary is the Immaculate Conception. The IC refers to the conception of Mary, free of Original Sin, within the womb of her mother, St. Anne.
The term "Immaculate Conception" is often erroneously used to refer to Jesus.
Warpy
(111,255 posts)Mary was "conceived without sin," which meant without sex. She is the first purely parthenogenetic human being and therefore the only suitable vessel to receive god's offspring.
By the way, the term "virgin birth" meant the first child of any woman back then.
Tree-Hugger
(3,370 posts)Years ago, I watched a show where they were discussing theories regarding the true date of His birth. Based on positions of stars and planets they came up with September in the year 7 BCE. I think they figured out an exact day, too.
I went to Catholic school and by 5th grade, we were taught that December 25 was a symbolic date, used to take over the Solstice or Saturnalia, and not Jesus' true birthday.
pscot
(21,024 posts)light in the dark of winter and a good dinner with family.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)Most Japanese are considered Shinto Buddhist. Maybe less than 1% of the population are actually Christians. But yet, "Kurisumasu" is celebrated in Japan anyway. That is because there, it is a Romantic holiday, like Valentines Day is here. Gifts are given, couples go out to dinner (Yes KFC, is pushed but hey,they got their claws embedded in the culture there now) and there are the traditional Christmas Cakes;
There are tons of Xmas trees, lights and all the trimmings, but its a holiday that does not involve people taking time off from work.. The biggest Holiday in Japan is New Years! Xmas in Japan is so very different from the United States. Its like a pretty wrapped up christmas gift with nothing inside, like those fake boxes you see under a tree, in a store window.
People there enjoy the holiday, if they have it off. Most people work that day, as any normal day. There is lots of music, celebrations, Christmas Trees and gift giving, especially to small children. But very few look at it as a religious holiday. Its never treated as a religious holiday.
Bill O'Reilly would just hate it!
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)pushing it's culture on others.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)After the US occupation of Japan after World War II.
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)Shinto Buddhist, I enjoy their idea of Christmas... but its sure is hard to find someone to share that Kurisumasu Keki with!
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)panader0
(25,816 posts)now go clean your room.
Been clean for hours!
DinahMoeHum
(21,784 posts). . .during the shortest daylight time of the year.
What do Christmas, Chanukah, Kwanzaa, Winter Solstice, Saturnalia, etc. all have in common?
Candles, ie. LIGHT
"Newborn Sun" (solstice) . . . . . . . . . . "Newborn Son" (Christmas)
Rex
(65,616 posts)nt.
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)seattle15
(45 posts)gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)I live in Tacoma
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)remember the famous response of an editor to the little girl named Virginia?
"Yes Virginia, there really is a Santa Claus."
sakabatou
(42,152 posts)Nine
(1,741 posts)ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)"Most threads whining about Christmas nearly two months early" maybe?
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)I fgure if the stores can put up their shit before Halloween, I can at least bitch about it after Halloween
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)I always get in the mail have been featuring Christmas shit since July.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)Two December 25 birthdays in one Jewish family. Pretty cool. (Though I imagine my grandmother and my mother-in-law had a tough time at the hospital giving birth on Christmas Day!)
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)we used to kid him and tall him that he would get the toy for Christmas and the batteries for them for his birthday. In reality because we were always so busy and trashed at Christmas, he was allowed to have two friends over for a very small party and then on his half birthday (June 26th) we would have his big party. It was funny when he turned 18, we told him he was old enough to just celebrate his birthday on it's regular date. He was bummed that he wouldn't get two birthdays anymore.
Uncle Joe
(58,355 posts)That's only three to four days after the darkest day of the year, at least in the Northern Hemisphere.
So from a symbolic stand point that date works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice
In the Northern Hemisphere this is the Southern solstice, the time at which the Sun is at its southernmost point in the sky, which usually occurs on December 21 to 22 each year.[3] In the Southern Hemisphere this is the Northern solstice, the time at which the Sun is at its northernmost point in the sky, which usually occurs on June 20 to 21 each year.[4]
Thanks for the thread, gopiscrap.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)There's no point in sifting through every facet of something looking for reasons to ruin it for other people who simply want to enjoy the time with family and friends.
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)I didn't say either way whether is was good or bad..me thinks this Christmas celebrator has thin skin and is a bit judgmental of others.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)You don't like Christmas, we get it, but maybe there's a reason you only find lumps of coal in your stocking.
TexasProgresive
(12,157 posts)Nevernose
(13,081 posts)It's about getting together with family and friends, putting up decorations, giving presents, ridiculous outdoor lights, traditional songs, drinking too much (as a warm-up for New Year's!), finding some snow if you're lucky, roaring fires, days off from work, greeting cards from people you don't see often, and a whole lot more that has little -- if anything -- to do with Jesus.
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)but it's also become not about friends and family and celebration either...it's become about giant corporations fucking folks out of their money.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)Of course, how does that make it any different than the other 364 days we're getting fucked in the nose? If it ain't the sanctity of Santa, it's graduation specials, or the Easter bunny! or Memorial Day, or Columbus Day, or President's Day. They can and will do everything in their power to fuck us out of our money.
Is it really the corporations' fault, I wonder? People don't have to sell their souls for cheap consumer products on Black Friday, nor do they have to do anything other than spend time with family and friends. What's lacking in our society? What's lacking that makes us so much more willing to shoot each other, or neglect one another, or neglect ourselves? Other countries have the same conglomerates shoving shit down their throats, but the people don't seem to have lost their "souls."
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)with religion.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Martin Luther King Jr. wasn't born on the third Monday in January...
Inauguration wasn't born on the first Jan 20 following a Presidential Election...
George Washington wasn't born on the third Monday in February...
Memorials weren't born on the last Monday in May...
Independence wasn't born on the 4th of July...
Labor wasn't born on the first Monday in September...
Columbus wasn't born on the second Monday in October...
and
Turkeys weren't born on the fourth Thursday in November...
So I would hope that in the spirit of your attitude concerning the birth of Jesus Christ, that you demand the right to WORK on all of those days, and for no more than your regular hourly pay.
I hope I covered it all.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Restraint and focus on kids having a blast.
cordelia
(2,174 posts)RebelOne
(30,947 posts)Egnever
(21,506 posts)Texasgal
(17,045 posts)thank you for that.
I enjoy spending time with my family, putting lights on the house and eating good food.
I am not a jesus freak, I am a normal American that enjoys the holidays.
Thanks for shitting on me.
elfin
(6,262 posts)Even tho not a believer, do like the carols, the tree, decorations and lights.
Can celebrate all the year around, but somehow the holiday is special that way.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)The celebration is symbolic; it doesn't matter what the real date was. It was set to correspond with pagan ceremonies celebrate the return of the sun (when the days start getting longer after the winter solstice). It does seem like a good time of year to have a big party.
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)12/25 then by God, he was born on 12/25!
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)I was just referring to normal people who happen to celebrate Christmas.
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)I didn't supply a positive nor negative opinion on it, just made a statement and left it that.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)and I have a minor in history
JustAnotherGen
(31,819 posts)Blame us UU's. . We unleashed Christmas with all it's trappings on America.
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)btw I love the UU political stance.
JustAnotherGen
(31,819 posts)Or non stance.
It's the only philosophy that lets me say "What would Moses do?", Good Friday and Easter are macabre, and believe a human being got married, started to be referred to as Rabbi, died a horrific macabre death, and naturally for his time and stature had a wife and kids. It's okay to believe in his words, reject every single other thing in the "New Testament" and believe not in a ghost - but in the words and example handed down with his birth anytime on earth . . . Regardless of when his birth to two Human beings took place.
And I'm of the mindset he was most likely born in March.
Politics aside you will be hard pressed to find two UUs that believe in the exact same thing outside of no one really knows until we die. . But - when you take the words (including the Gnostics and how they appear there) our "politics" as members are very much in alignment with his words.
I rarely jump into spiritual conversations at DU - but to me Christmas on speed is kind of thumbing our nose at stopping the world for the PDR "celebration". One human being - not a supernatural being with several ancient religions attached to it to make it more palatable for the people of the time.
So we (UUs) brought our European solstice based traditions of lit trees, merriment, food and celebration to America and stong armed America (much as Adams snuck in our philosophy of One God in a sucker punch - deism) into taking a day to be joyful at life and kindness and light - since we are all wonky and weird over the macabre PDR (Easter).
Arius would be quite proud of us - the Syrian Rabbi was murdered as a result of trying to stop the trinitarian imposition of pagan traditions being pegged on an extremely devout Jewish Rabbi - but alas - the Coptics prevailed.
That said as a UU - I will ask the universe to surround and protect Coptics Christians and Muslims in Egypt once again- at Christmas. It's where the split happened and where I'm of the mindset Unitarian's had our first declaration of defiance.
ETA - we made up for it (Christmas - reminding Christians that THEIR founders put all the Pagan/Earth Based Trappings on Christmas) by giving America non Sect Public Education. Look up Horace Mann. A man of his time who had to work within the framework of ignorance in the 1800's but his Unitarian personal cause was Public Education. Mine is feeding the hungry. And I LIVE it.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)I like spending time with my family and friends and that day is a good excuse.
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)that you're pretending to be celebrating the birth of Jesus on an artificially contrived day of his birth.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Keep trying.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Next Tuesday is open for that.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Pretty simple.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)and what actual non-biblical evidence are they basing it on?
Here's a hint; if you're talking about anyone except "Biblical scholars" (who have a vested interest in the subject matter) you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who will argue that "he" was "born" on Dec. 25, to be sure.
You'll also find there's not a hell of a lot of objective evidence proving "he" was "born" on any of the other 364 days of the year.
But since you're dealing with religion and mythology, who gives a shit? It's like arguing whether Quetzlcoatl's feathers were "really" yellow or orange.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Another Christian holiday ripped off from the pagans.
gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Because I know what the bunnies and eggs actually represent.
MFM008
(19,808 posts)some scholars have said he was born in the summer, closer to mid july. I dont remember why at the moment. Oh well the Queen wasnt born on her 'official' birthday either....
I celebrate it. I am a non-believer. I celebrate it on the 25th . . . but every once in a while we might celebrate it a day or so in either direction.
We give gifts. We get together and have a nice meal.
What is your point?
DrDan
(20,411 posts)Guess that puts a pox on the Kentucky Derby - a race for 3-year olds.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)Your point?
pintobean
(18,101 posts)and a merry Christmas, Mr. Crap.
Seeking Serenity
(2,840 posts)gopiscrap
(23,758 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Glassunion
(10,201 posts)Does anyone have Jeshua ben Joseph's actual birthday?
Throd
(7,208 posts)When I was an art-school hipster I hated Christmas, but being a cynical asshole was a requirement at that time in my life.
nolabear
(41,960 posts)Geez Louise, man, get a grip.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)No nativity scenes. I'm a UU secular humanist who studies Buddhism.
So what's the big deal? I love to cook at Turkey Day and Christmas. Unfortunately I have very few family to celebrate with.