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Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 01:28 PM Nov 2013

The Most Decorated Woman Soldier of WWII has died

Nancy Wake, "the White Mouse" and the most decorated woman of the 1939-45 war, disliked people messing around with her life story. Small wonder. It was an extraordinary story and an extraordinary life.

Ms Wake, who has died in London just before her 99th birthday, was a New Zealander brought up in Australia. She became a nurse, a journalist who interviewed Adolf Hitler, a wealthy French socialite, a British agent and a French resistance leader. She led 7,000 guerrilla fighters in battles against the Nazis in the northern Auvergne, just before the D-Day landings in 1944. On one occasion, she strangled an SS sentry with her bare hands. On another, she cycled 500 miles to replace lost codes. In June 1944, she led her fighters in an attack on the Gestapo headquarters at Montlucon in central France.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/resistance-heroine-who-led-7000-men-against-the-nazis-2334156.html




Years of service 1943–1945 (SOE)
Rank Captain
Unit Freelance
Battles/wars World War II

Awards
Companion of the Order of Australia
George Medal
Officier de la Légion d'Honneur
Croix de guerre (France)
Medal of Freedom (United States)
RSA Badge in Gold (New Zealand)

After the fall of France in 1940, she became a courier for the French Resistance and later joined the escape network of Captain Ian Garrow. In reference to Wake's ability to elude capture, the Gestapo called her the White Mouse. The Resistance had to be very careful with her missions; her life was in constant danger, with the Gestapo tapping her phone and intercepting her mail.

In November 1942, Wehrmacht troops occupied the southern part of France after the Allies' Operation Torch had started. This gave the Gestapo unrestricted access to all papers of the Vichy régime and made life more dangerous for Wake. The Germans had an English spy, Sergeant Harold Cole, working for them.


By 1943, Wake was the Gestapo's most wanted person, with a 5 million-franc price on her head. When the network was betrayed that same year, she decided to flee Marseille. Her husband, Henri Fiocca, stayed behind; he was later captured, tortured and executed by the Gestapo.[5]


Wake described her tactics: "A little powder and a little drink on the way, and I'd pass their (German) posts and wink and say, 'Do you want to search me?' God, what a flirtatious little bastard I was.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Wake

24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Most Decorated Woman Soldier of WWII has died (Original Post) Ichingcarpenter Nov 2013 OP
Wow. Just wow. loudsue Nov 2013 #1
So sick of right wing rhetoric concerning French lack of resolve during WW11. busterbrown Nov 2013 #2
What people forget is PumpkinAle Nov 2013 #6
The Secret Army is a nail biter Ichingcarpenter Nov 2013 #10
Funny how words change.. adavid Nov 2013 #20
Agreed, especially when the comments are made by a bunch of rethug chickenhawks kairos12 Nov 2013 #9
That and it's not like anyone else fared better taking the Wehrmacht on the chin like that Posteritatis Nov 2013 #14
Stalin is the main reason the Russian Army did so poorly in 1941 happyslug Nov 2013 #17
Not Bad Strategy, just to far behind Germany in re-arming. happyslug Nov 2013 #16
I don’t get it.. busterbrown Nov 2013 #21
It takes time to get a unit to work together as a unit. happyslug Nov 2013 #23
Godspeed, Nancy Wake. johnnyreb Nov 2013 #3
Rest in peace shenmue Nov 2013 #4
What a woman! Botany Nov 2013 #5
HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Nov 2013 #7
a great woman but she died two years ago. TeamPooka Nov 2013 #8
I thought so. whistler162 Nov 2013 #18
I would watch the heck out of that movie. ScreamingMeemie Nov 2013 #11
Adieu, Nancy Wake, and Godspeed LongTomH Nov 2013 #12
Salute Recursion Nov 2013 #13
And so CUTE too to boot. :-) WOW, what a GUTSY lady. They should have a statue in her honor. RBInMaine Nov 2013 #15
Reminds me of Barbara Stanwyck progressoid Nov 2013 #22
They raise 'em tough down in New Zealand! tabasco Nov 2013 #19
RIP burrowowl Nov 2013 #24

busterbrown

(8,515 posts)
2. So sick of right wing rhetoric concerning French lack of resolve during WW11.
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 01:58 PM
Nov 2013

The national govt. of France was a mess during the buildup to the war...Political factions creating havoc which led to a lack of a clear cut military strategy..

But the Resistance, from what I have read, were as tough as any warriors can get.. They were amazing.


http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11556268-a-train-in-winter

PumpkinAle

(1,210 posts)
6. What people forget is
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 02:45 PM
Nov 2013

that France had seen it all before during WWI - they thought they could work with the Germans so their country might fare a little better and then sadly the Vichy government/Petain took over. America never were on the receiving end until Pearl Harbor.

The Resistance were fantastic and there are many, many stories of bravery. Another book you may like is "Carve Her Name With Pride" about Violette Szabo (it is also a film).

A BBC series called Secret Army is also a good watch.

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
10. The Secret Army is a nail biter
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 03:10 PM
Nov 2013

each episode and also Colditz both are extremely suspenseful. My X's father was a resistance fighter and a saboteur in WWII and his father died in a Nazi Concentration Camp for his socialist politics.

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
14. That and it's not like anyone else fared better taking the Wehrmacht on the chin like that
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 03:47 PM
Nov 2013

The only country to take a full operational-scale blitzkrieg dead on on land and not get decisively defeated was the Soviet Union, and look how that went until the winter started to show up.

Sure, France went down, but it took Germany six weeks,a third of their aircraft and a quarter of their armor knocked out, and some two hundred thousand casualties to do it, and that coming from a country that was still exhausted from the First World War. People who toss around French surrender jokes tend to miss some of the numbers like that.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
17. Stalin is the main reason the Russian Army did so poorly in 1941
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 05:53 PM
Nov 2013

Stalin had purged the Soviet Army of its best Generals in purges of the late 1930s. Stalin had to bring back the survivors from Siberia to defeat the Germans outside of Moscow (and never really trusted them and the Generals distrusted Stalin so the Germans refused to be to imaginative when it came to tactics, less Stalin decided the planner of the maneuver was less important then the Generals who carried it out, thus the tendency of the Soviet Army to attack head on, even when the flacks of the German Army were open).

Second, What Stalin did in June 1941 makes no sense. The Traditional interpretation is Stalin moved his troops up from their old defensive line along the old border with Poland to the new border with Germany and thus easy for the Germans to surround and defeat. Worse, Stalin had moved up the supplies for those troops, so when the Germans invaded those supplies fell to the Germans.

An Alternative theory is Stalin was planning to invade himself, thus the troops were on the border with their supplies right behind them, as is needed if you are going to attack. Hitler's Chief of Staff, General Jodl stated during the Nuremberg trials that all he was doing was attacking Russia before Russia attacked Germany. In 1946 this defense was laughed at, but more recent records indicate they may be some truth to it,. In fact that the Germans hit the Russian Army was the Russia Army was about to attack would explain how effective that attack was. Most armies set to attack have a hard time adjusting to defense, mostly do to the location of their supplies. An Attacking army wants the supplies right behind them, so they do NOT outrun them to quickly. A Defensive Army wants them further back, so they can fall back on them. I hate to say this, but how far the German went in 1941 leads me to believe, the Germans hit an army that was about to attack and thus NOT set up for defense.

In any case, the fault lays with Stalin for the massive defeat of the Russian Army in 1941. By 1942 the situation had changed and even German long term planning showed the Russian winning the war (the big issue in 1942 was who would take Berlin? The Western Allies or the Russians?, thus Germany did no long term plans after 1942, Hitler disliked the results).

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
16. Not Bad Strategy, just to far behind Germany in re-arming.
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 05:35 PM
Nov 2013

Now, in the 1920s Germany practiced how to move armor in Communist Russia (and the Russian watched and learned, but Stalin had killed off or sent to Siberia his top officers during the purges of the late 1930s, Stalin had to bring those senior officers still alive back to Moscow to defeat the Nazis).

In many ways the German Army looked at how it could modernized in the 1920s, when such planning was technically illegal under the Treaty of Versailles. The German army also supported the "Free Corps" to put down the Communist revolution in Germany in 1919 (with approval of the Western Allies, even through the "Free Corps" were technically illegal under the Versailles treaty). The Free Corps were technically disbanded in 1920 but they were the center of the NAZI party's SA till the SA was smashed in 1934 in the "Night of Long Knives" that Hitler carried out to appease the German Generals.

Anyway, between the making of weapons overseas using German machinery and a clear idea of what the German Army wanted when it did expand, the 1920s was a key decade for the German Army. The decision to go to a General Purpose Machine Gun was made at that time period (and ended in the production of the MG34, the best Machine Gun of WWII except for the later German MG42). The Decision to stay with the 105mm Howitzer for it had perform well during WWI was also made in the 1920s (The US also decided to go with the 105mm Howitzer for the same reasons, it was the best artillery piece of WWI and would be the best Artillery pieces of WWII on the Western Front, it would be the best till self propelled artillery permitted the use of 155mm howitzers with the same type of quick emplacement to replace the 105 starting in the 1950s).

Aircraft were in a constant flux during the 1920s, Flaps were only invented in 1919 (and made anything before it obsolete, this rate of obsolescences do to the invention of Flaps exceeds even the later replacement of prop planes with Jets). By the late 1920s it was understood that sooner or later the monoplane would make a come back and replace the biplane. The need for higher speeds in planes would require that pilots be in fully enclosed cockpits (something Pilots of WWI and even as late as the 1930s opposed, they wanted to be able o extend they bodies over the side of the plane to see what was around them). Thus German research started to look into such planes (The ME 108 four passenger plane and the later ME-109 fighters were a result).

The German foremost Ace of WWI that survived the war, favored dive bombers, for such planes could hit a tank in the middle of a road, something that would take a luckily hit by other methods of bombing till the Smart bombs came into use in the 1960s (This permitted Germany to hit targets with more bombs, even as the total number of bombs they dropped were 1/10th or less of what bombers of other countries could drop. Allies Air forces, except for the US Navy, preferred dropping more bombs as the solution to hitting a target.

The above gave Germany a head-start over and above the fact that Hitler started Germany rearmament in 1934 (Another example of this is the US WWII Battleships, none were built between 1919 and 1936, but the US Navy went into research on how to make them better, thus no US Battleships were lost during WWII when on the high seas, even as their exchanged fire with French and Japanese Battleships).

Side note: After Pearl Harbor, the US Sent two of its Atlantic battleships to the Pacific, thus putting the US Pacific fleet one battleship less then the Japanese in the Pacific. When it became clear that the Japanese was NOT going to hit the West Coast, the damages battleships were withdrawn and sent to Various West Coast ports to be rebuilt to be used in later US Naval Offensive, When one of the new Battleships was launched in 1942, it was sent to the Atlantic, for Germany was seen as the Greater threat and engaged French Battleships when the US invaded French North Africa in November 1942.

The French and British had a hard time recovering from WWI. Both had near communist revolts in 1919 (thus no big push to invade Germany in 1919, in many ways the Treaty of Versailles, while punitive to Germany, was wanted by the allies so they could divert their forces to put down the various labor strikes and communist revolts of the 1918-1921 period (The US was NOT immune, the 1919 Steel Strike was violently put down and 20,000 miners participated in the West Virginia Coal War of 1921).

The US Boomed during the 1920s, for the first time in US History, the US became a net creditor (i.e. was loaning more money overseas then it was borrowing), Some of that wealth spread to Europe, but no enough to restore Europe to what it was in 1913. France decided to tear down the old walls and Forts of Paris (which had to a degree protected Paris in 1914, but had been viewed with distrust for decades for the Commune of 1871 had been protected by those walls. Paris followed the example of Vienna, building a wide boulevard where the wall had been and selling the land not needed by the Boulevard to pay for the Maginot line.

The Maginot line was used till the Soviet Union developed the means to hit a target with one round from one of its jet bombers in the 1970s. Prior to that the Maginot line was a good fortification. The Germans did NOT break through it. The Americans did so in late 1944, but from the side it was designed to protect (and undermanned for most German Soldiers were then in Poland fighting Russians).

Side note: The Maginot line consisted of two sets of Forts. First was the ones from Switzerland to Luxembourg. These were NEVER penetrated by the Germans. A second set on the border with Luxembourg. The hard points (forts) were further apart then in the earlier built section to save money, this is the section of the Maginot line the German broke through AFTER the French were pulling out troops to use elsewhere including protecting the Government as it vacated Paris. As one historian pointed out, the Maginot line did its job. IT forced the Germans to go through Belgium and the Netherlands, which all it was designed to do.

Anyway, from 1919 to 1940 French plans were simple, to prevent any incursion into Alsace and fight a war of maneuver in Belgium.

The problem was that in the 1930s, France was going through the same pressure Germany was going through, but France did not pick a Fascist ruler, instead opted for a Communist-Socialist coalition that the Right Wing (who were strong in the Officer Corp) opposed. As Germany went from its design phase of the 1920s straight into rearmament in 1934, France went into a non-violent Civil War between its Right and Left Wing. The Army thus was short changed and this internal Civil War did not end till 1938 (in fact the Munich Agreement was more an attempt to delay the war everyone knew was coming, so that Britain and France could get their militaries up to par with the Germans, something the French thought would take to 1941, a position also agreed to by the Germans).

France had decided to adopt what many considered the best bolt action military rifle ever made, the Model 1936. France had used Semi-automatic rifles in WWI, and found them wanting (most were pieces of junk). Thus the French took the German Mauser model 1898 Action (the Strongest bolt action ever made) and then moved the lock for the bolt from in front of the bolt to the rear, as in the British Lee Enfield. Thus you had the strength of the Mauser and the Speed of the Lee Enfield.

Side note: The Lee Enfield was designed in the 1880s, and was to be replaced in 1914-1920 period, but WWI started and the fact that the Lee Enfield was rear locking meant that the bolt only had to be pulled back the length of the round NOT the round and the lock. Thus the Mauser, which locks in front of the bolt, has a mas fire rate of 14 rounds per minutes, while the Lee Enfield can do 20. The M1 Rifle could do 30, and the M16 can do 40 in the semi-automatic mode (The M16 can fire faster in the fully automatic mode, but at the cost of less accuracy, i.e more bullets down range, but less bullets on target, thus we use the semi-automatic numbers).

The French had updated their M1897 75 mm Cannon, during WWII it had rubber wheels. It was a very good cannon, better then the 105mm in direct fire situation (Thus US Sherman Tanks used a variation of m1897 as its main gun even in 1945), but less effective in the more common situation in Western Europe of indirect fire support. French Airplanes were of early 1930s design, thus in the Battle for France in 1940, the French Troops came to see the sky being flown by Germans in ME-109s or British in Spitfires or Hurricanes. This was the result of the fact no French Planes had been designed in the 1936-1938 period (some were designed in the 1938-1940 period, but few were built).

Worse, French Troops had NOT been trained as while as their fathers had been in 1914. Training went down hill with the generally lack of fund 1934-1938, and with the Declaration of War in 1939, the troops were sent to the front to defend, instead of being kept back to train. Poland asked for assistance and the French did invade Germany in September 1939, but that had the problem of making the lack of training worse. Armies always deteriorate as they fight. They get sloppy and if faced with a well trained unit torn to pieces no matter how veteran they are. Thus went units are in combat, they should be pulled out and re-trained. The problem is it is hard to re-train if the unit is in combat OR in a position to defend from a potential attack. The September 1939 offensive kept the French Army from training till it withdrew behind the Maginot line in October 1939. Then it had to be put into a position to defend, for Germany had defeated Poland and was moving its Armies from Poland to the French Border.

On the surface the French Army was equal to the German Army in 1940, but the Germany Army had been training for at least two years while the French Army had only pulled some of its units back from the front to re-train. France had some good tanks, bigger, engines, more armor, more powerful gun, but overall poor design compared to the Germans. The British tanks followed the German tank lines except The British had two tanks, one a slow tank to provide fire support for the infantry and second a "Cruiser" tank that was intended to replace cavalry, it was under gunned, under armored and they crews were NOT trained to work with Infantry as while the German Tankers were.

Overall, France needed another year. Hitler knew this and is why he invaded Poland when he did. His German Generals said Germany would not be fully ready for war till 1943, but by then the French would have caught up in terms of supplies and training. Thus the superiority of Germany over France and Britain was coming to an end, probably would have ended in 1941 (By 1941 Britain was out producing Germany in all aspects of War, except by then Britain had no European allies left).

The above was the supply and training problems. Another was tactics, the French Generals took a while to understand that unlike WWI, by 1940 you could replace artillery with bombs from planes. At least once, French Generals did not think an attack would occur, for the Germans had a lack of Artillery to support such an attack, but then the German Attack supported by Ju-87 Dive bombers and other bombers providing the needed fire support. To a degree training would have brought this up, but the lack of training between 1934-1938 was again fatal.

Sorry, the Strategy of the French in 1940 was sound, wait till the supplies, equipment and training of your army caught up with the Germans before you did any offensive action. The problem was that same lack of Supplies, Equipment and Training meant that in any war of maneuver the French would come in second. Strategy was NOT the problem, it was the lack of Supplies, Equipment and Training that did in the French in 1940.



busterbrown

(8,515 posts)
21. I don’t get it..
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 09:35 PM
Nov 2013

Isn't Supply movement, equipment and training all a part of military planning(strategy) I read that the Communist party was the only group which actually wanted to meet the rise of German Nationalism head on..

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
23. It takes time to get a unit to work together as a unit.
Mon Nov 4, 2013, 02:32 PM
Nov 2013

Individual training is relatively easy. Think it terms of whoever is the Super bowl champions against the NFL's top players. The Super bowl champs had played together as a team for at least six months, do to that training they can count on people doing certain things (and thus know where they should be). The players selected for the Pro-Bowl, have worked together less then a week. Even if each player on the Pro=Bowl Player is better then the opposite player on the Super Bowl champion team, the fact that the Super Bowl Champion team has played AS A TEAM for six months give them a huge advantage. They know where the other players of their team will be and can and can not do AND how to play with those team members. The Pro Bowl players do not for they have NOT played that much together (in fact the NFL knows this for the rules are DIFFERENT for the pro-bowl then any other NFL game, for the simple reason it takes a long while to get people to work as a team).

Thus the lack of training from 1934-1938 do to a lack of supplies do to the internal political fight in France, by 1938 you had an army that on the surface as very strong, but had fundamental problems. 1938-1940 was NOR enough time to fix those problems. One area was the number of horses available to haul supplies. Now, it may shock people but by 1940 only the much smaller British army had completely mechanized (and that had to do with the loss of horse raising areas in Ireland when Ireland became independent). Both the French AND German armies still depended on the horse to haul supplies in 1940 (In fact horse hauling for the German Army would INCREASE as the war went on do to the loss of access to Russia Oil after June 1941).

Thus the lack of enough horses reduced the manageability of the French Army (While the German Army had enough horses, for Germany could pull from Hungary, a WWII German Ally and then Poland after October 1939).

The French had reduced their acquisition of horses in the mid 1930s and could not obtain enough after their declared war in 1939 (and was one of the reason the French did not plan any offensive operations till 1941). Airplane production had been similarly delayed and France was just starting to put modern planes into production when the German hit (The same for Britain, but the Battle of France permitted Britain to produce modern planes for six weeks before the Battle of Britain, without that six weeks of production Britain would have clearly loss the Battle of Britain, you have to remember the Germans came within days of driving the British planes out of Southern Britain, had the British been forced to pull what planes they had out of Southern Britain, German could have invaded for Germany would have had complete air superiority over the coastline of southern England).

I bring up the battle of Britain to show that the United Kingdom was not much then France was in May 1940, but France had to defend on land in addition to the air, while Britain during the battle of Britain only had to fight in the air (Germany had no fleet). If Britain had been forced to with draw its air forces to Northern England to preserve them for later use, Germany would have had air Superior ty and the British Fleet could have been forced to attack the German Invasion force at the time the German would pick. The German would pick a time where their Air Superior ty and submarines would do the most damage to the British fleet.

Back to France. Yes, Supply movement, equipment and training are part of Strategy but the French did consider them in 1940, thus the decision to stay on the defensive till 1941. Back to the Pro-Bowl for a second. The Pro Bowl rules are very restrictive as to the Defense compared to the Offensive, for Defense is generally easier to do.

Now in the winter of 1939-1940 the French came out with their operation D, A Plan that assumed a German Attack on the Dutch-Belgium Border (Open country, Ideal for tanks). When that attack occurred, the Dutch and the Belgium's had agreed to drop their neutrality and agree to the French Army to enter and support them. The problem was the French Army was depending on both countries to have prepared defensive positions for the French Army, defensive position neither country built.

In many ways the French decision to defend the low countries was France's biggest mistake. Had the French Army stayed in France when the German attacked the Netherlands and Belgium, they could waited for the German armor to go by and attack north cutting the German Attack in half (and this was the greatest fear of the German High Command for it meant the quick defeat of German Armor Formations that would take years to replace, years German would NOT have after such a defeat).

The French army had some other problems beside a shortage of horses. It had a shortage of Radios. Germany had embraced the radio big time in the 1930s as had Britain, but again do to the Political infighting in the mid 1930s, Radios had been a low priority for the French Army (One commentator said the French Army of mid 1930s saw no need for Radios, for the French Army saw its main duty in the mid 1930s as putting down a Communist Revolution in France NOT fighting Germany i.e. putting down another French Commune NOT driving the Germans from France).

In 1940 this decision made the French Army less able to adjust to Battle Field changes, but it would have been a minor problem if the French Army stayed on the Defensive. The real disaster was that the French Army had committed itself to Defend the Low Countries, while also staying out of those countries until they were attacked. i.e. The French Army, unprepared to do offensive operations, were committed to offensive operations.

Thus, the overall Strategy of the French was sound, be on the defensive and respond to what the Germans did. The problem was France had to commit itself to losing Belgium, something France did not want to do. France wanted to move from one Defensive position to another, which was itself correct, but permitted itself only to do so when Germany had already launched an attack. In 1940 France was NOT capable of that, it lacked the Horses, the Trucks and the radios to fight a war of maneuver. France could launch an attack against the supply lines of a German Attack, but not go head on with those same units.

Thus the Grand Strategy of being on the Defensive was correct for the French in 1940, the Grand Strategic decision to also defend Belgium was the fatal flaw. France should have told the Belgium's either permit our troops in between November and March 1940, or we will NOT send any French Troops to defend Belgium. Had the French adopted that policy, when the German Attack, they would have quickly seen that the French Army was staying in France. The German Army would have hit the English Channel Coast about the same time as it did, but would have no French or British troops within its net, those troops would have all still be in France, capable of cutting the German Forces in half and then go back on the defensive.

Just pointing out the Strategy was sound, given what the French Army was capable of in 1940. The problem was the decision to defend Belgium, when Belgium demanded that the French Army only advance into Belgium when the Germans had attacked not before.

More on the Battle of France:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France

Botany

(70,449 posts)
5. What a woman!
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 02:28 PM
Nov 2013

Nancy recalled later in life that her parachute had snagged in a tree. The French
resistance fighter who freed her said he wished all trees bore "such beautiful fruit".
Nancy retorted: "Don't give me that French shit."

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