Theoretical question about reproductive rights.

[BainsBane]

Is it possible for someone to advocate that a woman not have the right to make her own choices about reproductive rights, including birth control, pregnancy, and abortion, and still be considered a liberal, progressive, or good Democrat?

Note that this hypothetical question is about choice, not about whether one believes abortion is moral. In full disclosure, I am not personally comfortable with abortion. It doesn't comport with my own views about the sanctity of life, but that is very different from being anti-choice. I believe fully and absolutely in a woman's right to choose. This question is about those who insist the law should prohibit women from making their own decisions.

[Ptah]

1. link?

[BainsBane]

3. No link is necessary

It's a straight-forward question.

[etherealtruth]

2. Viewing women as less than autonomous self determined humans ...

... is not consistent with being a "good human being" much less a good Democrat.

[BainsBane]

5. I couldn't agree more

[pintobean]

4. Huh

Did you need an audience?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/125528557#post7

[Freddie]

6. No

Abortion may be an unthinkable choice for you. You can try to convince your friends and family it's an unthinkable choice for them. But the minute you try to enshrine into law that it's a choice no one can make, that's stepping over the line.
I think this should be part of the Democratic Party platform: A woman has the sole, irrevocable right to decide whether, when, and how many children she will bear.

[JaneyVee]

7. Not advocacy, no. But one can be personally against abortion while still acknowledging

The need for choice for others. Advocating for the lack of choice is most definitely not a Liberal trait.

[on point]

8. No. Because not supportive of individual rights in progression of human rights

Your position makes perfect sense. Individual choice (against), but don't let me impose my choice on others.

Not to mention separation of church and state

[BainsBane]

9. Or call women who support choice "murderers."

[REP]

15. That's what she calls women who have had abortions - supporters of choice may be spared that epithet

If you feel like searching, it was in a reply to me on DU2 where she first stated that women who have had abortions are "murderers."

[BainsBane]

19. I never saw the discussion in question

Only the fallout. Thanks for the tip about the search.

[REP]

20. It's been a few years ago

You're late to my parade

[TreasonousBastard]

10. I don't see the black and white in this...

OK, we all agree the wild-eyed evangelicals and their lackeys who want to criminalize abortion are completely out of line and must be stopped.

But, there are people who just can't deal with certain propositions for their own reasons. I've known good women who had all the "correct" positions on taxes, employment, other legal matters and all sorts of good lefty stuff dear to all of us while working their butts off on charitable and political projects, but just couldn't get away from the belief that life started at inception. It therefore wasn't only her personal choice, but a meta issue like the death penalty.

So, what to do? Have her club card pulled because of this one belief that runs counter to the mainstream?

The general idea is that "choice" means I can believe pretty much anything and do pretty much what I believe as long as it doesn't affect others. It's "my" choice, and I can't impose it on you.

But, there are those pesky gray areas that keep popping up and making it inconvenient to keep to the dogma. I always thought that progessivism, liberalism, and all that other good stuff we claim to believe in precludes blind acceptance of dogma. Each individual is a unique case, not an item on a list to be checked off.

[BainsBane]

12. So you believe that you have a right to control my body?

while I myself don't. Your insistence that my right to make decisions about my body is "dogma." Will you then submit yourself and other men to a state mandated vasectomy? Or is your flexibility on human rights limited to depriving women of their basic right to choose what to do with their own bodies?

Whether someone calls himself a fundamentalist or a "liberal," if he thinks putting control of women's bodies in the hands of the state rather than understanding that they have a basic right to make such decisions, he clearly opposes basic human rights for women. The label he attaches to himself is irrelevant. Refusing to acknowledge my right to the most basic of human rights is unacceptable.

[TreasonousBastard]

16. Actually, no. But that's your point, not mine...

I thought I made that clear, but apparently not clear enough.

I'm talking about how to deal with a woman, or maybe a man, who has a deep, abiding belief that abortion is wrong, but is in almost every other way one of us. She might even go so far as to support anti-abortion legislation.

Is she just thrown under the bus, or is there another way to deal with her?

No, it's not an easy question, but easy questions don't get you anywhere.

[BainsBane]

17. That isn't the question I asked

I suggest you read the OP.

[TreasonousBastard]

22. And I suggest I did answer it, but not with...

an answer you like.

You want a yes or no answer, preferably no. I don't think questions like that can be answered yes or no-- there has to be some ability to adjust to unexpected circumstances. If you're making a hot speech or a rally sign, go ahead and be absolute, it's expected. But in real life when real problems and real people have to be dealt with, principles can be excellent guidance but absolutes get in the way.

"Probably no" might work because it's tough to imagine a "true progressive" who would support anti-choice laws, but not impossible. Especially since I knew a few, including my mother.

BTW, my father was fond of reminding me that the Jesuits at Fordham Law School drummed into their heads that in any discussion, first define your terms. We don't do much of that here.

Me go sleep now.

[BainsBane]

24. I was extremely clear

That I was not speaking about one's personal views on abortion but whether one believes the state should control a woman's body. I defined my terms. For your part, You have been clear than you see basic human rights for women as "dogma."

[LostOne4Ever]

11. Believe that a woman does not have a right to her own choices about reproductive rights?

No. It is completely impossible. If you don't believe someone has a right to autonomy, you can't be a liberal.

That said, I do think it is possible to have a person who is a liberal to have an anti-abortion position. They can be personally opposed to abortion but believe that the government shouldn't be the one to tell the woman what to do with their own body.

I could also see a person who really truly cares about all living things (ie they are a pacifist/anti-war, anti-death penalty, pro-gun control, pro-social programs, pro UHC, pro-vegan, anti-fur, etc.) who feels that the fetus's right to live trumps the womans autonomy. Of course this type of person would very pro birth control. This differs from what you are describing in that they do believe women have reproductive rights, but that they think the fetus rights in this area trumps the womans. Sorry if it sounds like I am splitting hairs but I do think its an important distinction.

My personal belief? The woman's right to autonomy/self ownership trumps any limited rights the fetus may or may not have. Her body, her choice.

[p class=post-sig style=margin-top:0px;text-align:center;]

[div style='color: #B20000;font-size: 2.000em'] [center] Not all those who wander are LOST!!! [/center]

[BainsBane]

13. I'm basically in the camp you describe

but I see a clear difference between making my own choice and putting that control in the hands of the state.

[Gravitycollapse]

14. You can be a Democrat. Not a good one, but a Democrat. nonetheless. You can't be a progressive...

And believe in such nonsense. And you certainly can't be much of a feminist.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. Easy answer. It's a big fat NO!

Having encountered some anti-choice 'feminists' for 'life' back in my pre-DU days, those folk can call themselves whatever they want, but very few others will consider them the slightest bit left-wing when they're advocating for the rights of half the population to be stripped away from them...

[Warren DeMontague]

21. No.

I think it's a pretty clear line. And it's a basic issue of clear division between, for instance, the DNC and RNC platforms every four years.

[Gormy Cuss]

23. No to liberal or progressive.

One can be a good Democrat and stand against the party on this issue but there's nothing liberal or progressive about that stance. I'd even say there's nothing moderate about being anti-choice. It's straight up a conservative position and one can be that rare creature know as a conservative Democrat. Conservative Democrats are sorta welcome in the party so in that sense they're good Democrats, just as the racist Dixiecrats were good Democrats in their day.Sorta.

[The Straight Story]

25. There are a lot of things I don't like, but am pro-choice on

I don't own a gun, for example, but have no problem with people having the choice to buy one. Abortion, your body your choice isn't just for other things - applies there as well.

Plenty of people who say they are progressive are anti-choice on many issues that should be left up to individuals (smoking, fast food, sugary drinks, etc) and I bet everyone of them thinks denying choices to protect others (as the rw says they want to protect a fetus) is a very progressive ideal.

[Zorra]

27. Is it possible for someone to believe that they have the right to own black

slaves and still be considered a liberal, progressive, or good Democrat?

In both cases, choice and slavery, someone is advocating that a particular group should not have sovereignty over what they choose do to with their own bodies.

The subject population has limited choices imposed upon them by a dominant majority, simply because of their distinct differences that are a sovereign natural condition.

When being subject to forced, mandated birthing, a condition of legalized slavery is imposed upon only women.

So, no, IMO, it is not possible for someone to be considered a liberal, progressive, or good Democrat if they advocate that women do not have the right to make their own choices about what to do with their own bodies.

[BainsBane]

28. Excellent point