A very quick comment on the diffusion of white, male privilege...

[Gravitycollapse]

Last edited Thu Nov 7, 2013, 07:22 PM - Edit history (1)

And how being a "good guy" is largely irrelevant.

There seems to be an attempt by some to say that the problem with society is always the "inherently bad" guys who aren't liberal, progressive white males.

This is not the issue. Privilege is diffuse, almost invisible if you aren't looking for it. It's designed to be that way so that any challenge against it can be dismissed as hysteria. What is at issue is not that there is a mass of bad white guys going around doing evil deeds; although such people do exist.

No, what is really at issue is the tiny increments of privilege expended by every person of the privileged classes every waking second of the day. Little things that you don't necessarily notice aggregate together with others to create a massive social, legal and political influence.

Not being consistently viewed as a sexual object is something men benefit from every single day of their lives. Not being profiled as a criminal because of their skin color is a benefit white persons possess every day they are alive.

What is at issue is not that just that this privilege exists but that those who benefit from it the most are unwilling to admit that such benefit exists. Most privilege is not conscious, be it gifting or receiving. So when we talk about the privileged white male, that is not an attack on you personally as an independent human being. It is an attempt to point out that at the very point where one is unaware of his or her privilege is precisely the point at which privilege is MOST effective.

Power is most efficient when it conceals both its mechanisms as well as its consequences. When a person of a truly privileged class denies these benefits, power is multiplied and the issue is made worse.

I could write dozens more pages on the subject but I don't have time right now. But I felt this needed to be said in light of recent posts.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

1. what is the point of your post? Most all here acknowledge white privilege and male privilege

That doesn't make me, a white male, the bad guy which some self-hating posts earlier were trying to do.

[Gravitycollapse]

2. You missed the point. You don't have to be a bad guy to be a part of the problem.

The archetypical bad guys are few and far between. It is the masses of decent people unwilling to admit their gross privilege that are the biggest perpetrators of privilege and oppression.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

7. yes. that is part of institutional racism. people who stand by and let privilege rule. however,

most of us white males that are more activist are always working to change the dynamic. We don't think Voting Rights Act has "done its job and run its course". We don't think affirmative action is white discrimination. We understand and at least sympathize with a black man having a hard time even walking down the street without being seen as suspicious. We'll never by able to empathize because it is impossible to fully put yourself in those shoes vicariously.

I had many of my assumptions about how our society works completely challenged when my Chinese wife experienced all manner of direct and "soft" or indirect racism or racial bias or profiling. I am not deceived about our country's race problems.

But there are actually a LOT of archetypal white bad guys and bad gals who exude racism and feel white people SHOULD have the advantage. They are all over the U.S. but highly concentrated in the midwest and the south.

Don't lump the rest of us in with the TRUE problems and barriers to creating a more level playing field in this country.

[jeff47]

14. The OP is talking about much more subtle effects of privilege.

How 'bout an example that doesn't involve race or gender:

I've never had to worry about having enough money for food. My wife has.

As a result, it simply doesn't occur to me that it's a problem we may face - the thought of me, personally, being food insecure just doesn't occur to me. Sure, I've done appropriate planning to ensure it won't happen to my wife and kids, but it's still an abstract problem for me.

That's not true for my wife. She has an almost sub-conscious understanding of it.

That is an effect of privilege.

[upaloopa]

31. And that makes you a bad guy per the OP

You aren't buy if you want to be go ahead

[jeff47]

53. No, it doesn't.

No one is infinitely understanding of what everyone else is going through. There's too many variations in our lives.

Experiencing privilege doesn't make you a bad guy. Insisting privilege does not exist makes you a bad guy.

[NuclearDem]

61. ^THIS

[upaloopa]

124. I must have said this a hundred times here at DU

Every White guy who is aware at all is aware he has privileges that others don't.
Further privilege is given to you by others.
You can use privilege for your own good and for the good of others.
That being true and it is, renders these "privilege" op's a complete waste of band width because the problem they purport to resolve doesn't even exist. It is fantasy similar to conspiricy theory.
Really I reject all you have said so labeling me a bad guy is also a waste of time.
What is truly amazing is responces to me are more of the same bullshit I already said I reject.

[Gravitycollapse]

58. No, it doesn't. Please reread my OP before commenting further.

[upaloopa]

29. Now there is real collective guilt!

You really have to be twisting things in your head to get to that conclusion.
There are good guys and bad guys but there really can't be any good white guys because they don 't know they have privilege and that they are constantly abusing others even if they aren 't aware of the abuse! Give me a fucking break!

[Gravitycollapse]

34. Those are your words, not mine.

As I've made it perfectly clear, this isn't about the archetypical bad guys. It's about the vast majority who are decent people but refuse to admit to and fight their privilege.

Refusing to admit it and getting away with such a refusal is itself a manifestation of said privilege.

[upaloopa]

36. That's just what you said.

Your OP is the most convoluted thing I have read in years

[Gravitycollapse]

38. Yeah, that's not what I said.

This topic is complex. I think you're confusing the complexity with ambiguity.

[Bradical79]

101. Thats the opposite of what the op said.

You seem to be having a comprehension issue.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. no, they don't. i have seen a gazillion post denying any privilege of any group

(mostly cos people don't understand what privilege in this particular context means)

[ismnotwasm]

5. +1000

[YoungDemCA]

21. +2

[gollygee]

41. Another +1

[hfojvt]

76. maybe because privilege is used in an odd way here

http://dailyhowler.blogspot.com/2013/04/red-and-blue-with-race-all-over-sirotas.html

"According to Sirota, “white male privilege” means that white men “are not collectively denigrated/targeted for those shootings, even though most come at the hands of white dudes.”

The basic claim there is true, of course. No one has blamed Joseph Biden or Justin Bieber for the murderous actions of Adam Lanza. But when Sirota attributes this fact to “white privilege,” he takes us to a strange place.

Is it really a form of “privilege” when Justin Bieber isn’t blamed for Adam Lanza’s actions? On its face, that’s a very strange way to put it. It almost sounds like Sirota is saying that Bieber should have been blamed, but somehow wriggled off the hook due to his “white male privilege.” "

"Privilege" as a word we learn in grade school has a fairly simple meaning - it means that a person GETS something they do not earn, something extra. But then when people make up this concept they call "white privilege" or "male privilege" suddenly privilege does not mean what everybody knows (or should know) that it means.

Suddenly I have white privilege not because I GET anything but because other people get something - they get harrassed, they get discriminated against. And somehow I am supposed to benefit. I guess it is not fair that I don't get harrassed or discriminated against.

And it certainly IS, and always will be, an attack on me, when I am told that I, MYSELF, have all these white male privileges.

But of course, it is another attack on me, it is MY fault for "not understanding" this stupid concept. Although, it seems to me that many people who love this concept, love it because they get to be the victims, they get to point the accusing finger at those others who have all those privileges, while they get to bask in the sympathy. Maybe if I was on the winning side of this concept, I would love it too. I could get together with my guy buddies and talk about how all those women have female privilege and shake my head at their inability to understand and their defensiveness and anger when I try to explain it to them. "Tsk, tsk, tsk, they just don't get it (some of them)"

[La Lioness Priyanka]

86. the word privilege in the context of social science literature

does mean 1. lack of discrimination against your group 2. a general unawareness of your groups status in day to day interactions (how often do straight people have to think of themselves as straights, whereas gays have to constantly think of themselves as gay)

so yes, there is a social science context under which this word is used, and its not the fault of researchers/social scientists that people don't bother to figure out the context of the usage before getting all worked up.

[hfojvt]

114. it is the fault of social scientists

for using a word and putting a different meaning on it. Like calling red "green" and then having to try to explain that in a social science context "green" does not mean green, it means red.

If they really wanted to help end discrimination, they would do better to talk about discrimination instead of pointing an accusing finger at those who are apparently unfairly NOT discriminated against.

END PRIVILEGE NOW - DISCRIMINATE AGAINST EVERYONE!!!

Further, I think it is absurd to talk about "group" status in this way. Like I, as a white male have some sort of status advantage over Oprah Winfrey.

But heck, let's get even closer to home. I don't even have a status advantage over my black co-worker, and I am his supervisor.

I did however, have a hilarious incident happen on Tuesday. I was dressed up, going to my Kiwanis meeting. I crossed the street in front of this parked car with three black teenagers in it. As I passed in front of the car, I hear the locks click.

I am still laughing as I think about it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

116. no, it's not. people borrow things from academia without context/definitions all the time

emotional intelligence being another thing that is borrowed and widely misunderstood

[uponit7771]

90. +1

[whathehell]

106. You are correct..

All it means, to my understanding, is to TRY and realize all the stuff that YOU, as a privileged person, does not have to go

through that the "other" not-so-privileged DOES have to go through.

I see lots of white males (and females) acknowledging their race privileges -- NO so much with their gender privileges,

and the thing is, you've got to ACKNOWLEDGE it, even if it's just to yourself, to get rid of it.

[leftstreet]

4. OP makes the point 'good guy/bad guy' is irrelevant

That's how I read it anyway

Moving past the 'just a few bad apples' discussion to the privilege concept itself

[BainsBane]

19. A sizable minority does not

Particularly male privilege. Look around to see how often certain posters mock the concept that patriarchy even exists. Central to maintaining privilege is denying its existence.

[NuclearDem]

44. More of that persecution complex nonsense.

I'm a white male, and I don't hate myself for being a white male.

However, I do acknowledge that as a white male, I'm automatically going to be granted certain advantages. I don't get followed around in stores by security, I don't get sexually harassed on the street, my reproductive rights aren't under attack, and I'm not likely to be a victim of police brutality or profiling.

Easy example, street harassment. Women get cat-called or checked out walking to work or anywhere else, mostly about their appearance. Men get compliments about their appearance as well. When men subsequently tell women to not worry about street harassment or unsolicited comments about their appearance, saying that they're just "compliments", they completely ignore that it's not the same for women as it is for men. They don't acknowledge their privilege.

No one's saying you have to hate yourself for being a white male in a position of privilege. All that everyone else is asking is that you acknowledge it and think about things you're going to say or do beforehand with that privilege in mind.

MRAs and racists with a persecution complex like to scream misandry or reverse racism when it's brought up to them. It's neither, it's just a small thing others in positions of difficulty ask.

[AverageJoe90]

52. All true, btw.

Though I'd like to argue that it's more of a case of underprivilege & more disadvantages on the part of the victims, than "overprivilege" on the part of white folks, at least where America is concerned.

[1StrongBlackMan]

49. Well PW …

Stick around. Will be plenty of white males that will come here and deny (if not, stop just short of denying) that WMP exists.

If not … just search the term “White Privilege” here at DU. It will be denied through some statement involving JZ or Oprah versus their lif; or denied because they once were stopped in their beater vehicle, while in a affluent community; or denied because of their being watched while in an affluent store, with their full-face tattoos. Huge gauges and 72 piercings … making it an economic issue.

[Warpy]

6. Privilege is invisible until it is threatened, you mean

Have you ever seen the anti Suffragette propaganda from the early part of the last century? Men were having hysterics, terrified that they'd have to wash a floor while the wife enjoyed a cigar and the newspaper.

It's why so many are having hysterics over birth control and abortion. They're not in control of either now.

And the idea that a wife will have a salary higher than theirs? Oh my gosh, avoid those women, they're poison to a happy home!

I also remember the south when public swimming pools were finally opened to black kids whose families could dome up with the admission price, the white flight was hilarious! You'd think they thought a few black kids would turn all that clear blue water into mud!

Threaten any privilege at all and it's instantly visible, even if you weren't sure you were threatening it before you started.

[Gravitycollapse]

8. Yes healthy debate!

I have to disagree that privilege always becomes visible when challenged. But I'm at work now and can't write out my thoughts until later.

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. first: Dis-privilege among minorities manifests itself as follows;

a) lack of access to education. More likely to be disciplined, suspended, expelled or drop out
b) disproportionate incarceration and harsher penalties for the same crime
c) greater unemployment
d) mistrust and suspicion
e) poorer health outcomes
f) limited benefit from social programs: e.g. a black person pays the same % of taxes for social security, but on average derives less benefit.
g) greater violent crime victimization
h) are more likely, during times of conflict, to be the ones sent to die on the front lines

Oddly, male privilege manifests itself in exactly the same way.

White privilege exists. Male privileges don't manifest in such a way as to yield any tangible benefit. At worst, the net effect of gender privilege is zero.

Second: privilege isn't about "bad guys".

[ismnotwasm]

10. And you truly believe this?

Interesting.

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. It's not a matter of belief.

Argue the points.

[1StrongBlackMan]

50. Are you saying that …

You, as a male, are not privileged when your potential pregnancy isn’t a hiring or promotional consider?

Are you saying attending a happy hour and not having to be overly concerned with who you speak to and/or accept a drink from, is not a privilege?

I could go on; but either you get it or you won’t.

[lumberjack_jeff]

60. I'm saying that for every example, there's an (at least) equally compelling counterexample.

I've never been faced with the dilemma of which drink offers to accept.

[Gravitycollapse]

68. False. Reality clearly favors cisgendered white, straight men.

Take one day out of your life and whenever you have any interaction with any person immediately take a moment to consider how you have privilege in the situation. Mark it down in a note book. Go home and ponder your various run-ins.

There's also an almost unending collection of texts you should begin reading now. I can recommend some literature.

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. In my daily life, I work with the disabled in a impoverished community.

Last edited Fri Nov 8, 2013, 01:43 PM - Edit history (1)

When I drive past the homeless youth on my way to work, I'm reminded of how fortunate I am to have clean clothes and a roof over my head. I'm keenly aware of how my neurotypical ability gives me privilege and I'm both thankful and mindful to treat people with respect. When my work takes me to "the indian reservation" I'm keenly aware of how white privilege insulates me from some of the chronic problems they face.

When I interact with my female boss (the board president), or the women who administer our contracts, or when I get assigned every job (from superiors as well as subordinates) that requires a) rain b) tall ladders c) heavy loads d) dangerous tools... or when my HS educated son talks to me of the financial stresses involved in putting his wife through college, I don't see privilege... because it doesn't exist.

[Gravitycollapse]

88. No, it exists. You just don't want to admit it exists. Or you can't see it.

Neither are noble positions to be in.

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. I don't want to "admit" that leprechauns exist. I can't see them either. n/t

[Gravitycollapse]

95. Yes, and the abundance of feminist and queer analyses and theory is wrong.

The impossibly large number of others who admit to gross privilege are wrong.

You, Jeff, are correct.

There's only so many excuses for being willfully ignorant. And I'm pretty sure you're wearing them out.

[lumberjack_jeff]

97. Now we're talking about hetero privilege?

If the strength of the "male privilege" argument were so compelling, you wouldn't feel such a compulsion to bring race and orientation... or whatever you'll pick next... into it.

The examples provided in this subthread are so weak as to convince me that I'm right. I'm privileged because "if I were a woman I'd have to carefully consider which free drink offers to accept"? Seriously?

"Healthy debate". I don't think that word phrase means what you think it means.

[Gravitycollapse]

99. People have listed many examples for you.

You simply choose not to recognize them. And that is your own prerogative but it also means you cannot demand lists of examples when the lists of examples already given to you are adequate for a cursory explanation.

If you want to whole heartedly understand what it means to have white privilege, what it means to have male privilege, what it means to have heterosexual privilege, you will have to immerse yourself in the specific fields of study. You will have to specifically read about an analyze quantitative and qualitative explanations and theoretical bases.

But based on my current and past discussions with you on the subject, especially revolving around women in the work place, I very seriously doubt the honesty or clarity within which you put forth your arguments.

Ignoring reality is not a viable position to take. And, believe me, and everyone else, you are very strongly ignoring reality.

[jeff47]

16. Yeah....that's not how it manifests itself.

But nice try at trying to find misandry.

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. Then defend your viewpoint.

How does white privilege manifest? I doubt that any people of color would dispute the measures I've suggested.

[1StrongBlackMan]

51. Yes …

Those are all ways in which WP manifest itself, so as you can recognize/acknowledge it (while also claiming that it doesn’t because it manifests in a similar way with male of whatever color; thus WMP does not exist … yeah, I caught that!)

But WP manifests itself, to people of color, in the daily indignities and slights that they/we suffer because of their/our race … like you get hired, it’s because … well … you got hired; I get hired and the affirmative Action hire whispering campaign begins ... You are rarely, if ever, confused for “the help”, and never when you are “dressed up.” You will rarely, if ever, be looked passed by a total stranger and had your subordinate addressed as boss.

Yes … the manifestations that you cite to are bad; but not having to experience those small daily indignities are far more soul-sucking, for those of us that GOT the education; despite the obstacles; STAYED OUT of jail; despite a system designed to ensnare us; ARE gainfully employed; despite the AA whispers …

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. I am not, in any form, denying that WP exists.

It's pervasive, it's corrosive and it's unacceptable.

Frankly, the near universal conflation of white privilege and male privilege would be insulting to me if I were black.

In contrast, male privilege balanced against female privilege does not confer any net benefit or protection.

Wealth privilege, hetero privilege, geographic privilege, ability privilege, racial privilege... they all mean something. Sex? No.

[AverageJoe90]

71. "White" "privilege" offers no real "benefits" for the whole either.

As I pointed out earlier, the whole analogy of all white people benefitting from racism falls apart when you look at history.

Did Germans, or Russians, Serbs, etc. as a whole benefit from decades, and even centuries, of anti-Semitic and anti-ziganist bigotry, structural or otherwise? In fact, Jews were used as a scapegoat to keep the status quo of reactionaries alive for as long as possible, including the prevention or rolling back of, social advancement. It happened in Russia under Alexander III in the 1880s, in the Southern U.S. starting under President Hayes in the 1870s, in Germany in the 1930s, and even after Bacon's Rebellion in colonial Virginia. And not in any of these cases was there any benefit for all of the same group that the dominant elites happen to come from. Why? Because in our universe, Western racism never worked that way; it was always done for the few who sought ill-gotten gains.

And in fact, another fact I'd like to make clear is that, ironically, this very same "every white benefits from racism" argument was(even if coming from the opposite angle!), believe it or not, made, in various ways, by none other than the very proponents of Jim Crow in the South! And they believed it, too! But it wasn't true; the South was one of the poorest & most screwed up regions of the country.....even many whites didn't have it too good, even if they were incredibly fortunate compared to Southern Afro-Americans who couldn't try to vote, who couldn't quite marry whom they wished, who couldn't disagree with white folks, etc., without the risk something terrible happening to them, including murder(Emmett Till, for example).

[lumberjack_jeff]

82. When you look at the average outcomes for blacks vs whites

Last edited Fri Nov 8, 2013, 05:23 PM - Edit history (1)

It's hard to avoid the conclusion that the disadvantage is pervasive. The possible explanations are overt systemic institutional racism (affirmative action and programs like the United Negro College fund suggest that this isn't the principal problem) or privilege.

By pretty much every quantifiable measure, Black men do worse than white men and black women do worse than white women.
By those same measures, men in general do worse than women.

In this society, at the individual level, economic privilege is such a huge factor that it's hard to feel privileged, even if to varying degrees we are.

[AverageJoe90]

120. I see what you're saying, Jeff, although it doesn't disprove my point, either.

Indeed, I don't think anyone can deny that African-Americans and other POC continue to face disadvantages that whites don't.

All I'm saying is, it really doesn't benefit any of us white folks on the street, either(although I'm sure the Teabaggers would love to argue otherwise), simply because of the way the remnants of systemic racism, and societal racism have always worked in this country; targeted for the many, but to the ill-gotten benefit (real or perceived, and usually the latter at that) of only a select few.

[jeff47]

56. Your list is about 100 pages too short

and your attempt to say men get no benefit is rather laughable.

[YoungDemCA]

23. Lots of assertions and denial...

...but none of what you said has to do with men being disenfranchised for being men.

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. two things.

First, society doesn't consciously send black people to jail because they are black. They do it because the systems in place all collectively work to encourage that outcome. That's the point of privilege, and what separates it from bigotry - it's ubiquitous and largely invisible to those wielding the power.

Second, to the extent that we recognize white privilege, society does try (insufficient though those efforts may be) to mitigate it. The United Negro College Fund raised $3.6 billion last year to enable more black kids into college.

How do we address the 50% greater likelihood that girls will go to college? "It is a great accomplishment"

[ismnotwasm]

62. "First society doesn't consciously send black people to jail because they are black"

Wrong.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. As pervasive as white privilege is...

... even the affordable care act does not single out white people for special treatment.

Privilege? I would suggest that having an "office for healthcare for people who look like me" would be a net positive.

[ismnotwasm]

69. Jeff

I think you're not understanding historical context, much less impact.

[lumberjack_jeff]

83. And I think you're not keeping up with current events. n/t

[Chiquitita]

42. okay I'll give it a shot off the top of my head -- help anyone?

This is white male privilege:

1. you don't wonder if your female colleague at work is getting paid more because she's a woman, or just because she does a better job than you
2. you don't look in the mirror and wonder if you are dressed too suggestively and thus a target for a rape-minded person at the party you're going to
3. as an adolescent in school you didn't try to act stupid or not raise your hand in class, because if you acted smart you wouldn't seem attractive to the opposite sex
4. you don't feel like you have no candidate in the voting booth to vote for who understands "white men's issues" -- because most of them are just like you.
5. a generation ago your gender wasn't relegated to professions like teaching and nursing and scolded for trying to "take slots" from a more deserving father with a family to feed
6. you don't know if there's a women's shelter in your community (because you won't get beaten by your partner and will never have to use it)
7. people listen with respect when you are talking and don't interrupt you or assume they know more because of your gender

[jeff47]

55. How bout

8. You don't make posts about how "dis-privilege" manifests itself on others, leaving out several hundred in an attempt to show men get no advantages in life.

[hfojvt]

77. those are very strange privileges

seeing as how they seem to confer no benefit on me, and I wonder now if women ARE doing those things that I am supposedly NOT doing, and if so - why?

1. Do my female colleagues look at me and wonder if I am making more money than them? Probably not, since I have no equals in my organization. I happen to be the only head janitor in the building, in fact for the whole city. Some of my female co-workers, such as my boss, and her boss, and the pool manager, and the engineer, and the head of animal control and the head of human resources are making much more money than I am.

2. How many times has my 50 year old little sister done that? Probably not that much since she got married at age 21. Doesn't seem like a real problem for most women for most of their lives.

3. let me check the record. When I graduated high school, seven people graduated with highest honors - 3 males, 4 females. 25 graduated with honors - 8 males, 17 females. I guess those girls forgot to act stupid. Maybe they weren't doing that in the 1970s.

4. amazingly enough I sometimes feel like the millionaires who get elected to Congress and run for Governor do NOT understand "working people's issues" even though it surely is great to know that Sam Brownback and Pat Roberts are "just like me". That makes me feel all warm inside.

5. so I have privilege NOW because of something that happened fifty years ago? And considering that I, myself, have been relegated into a career as a janitor, I cannot feel bad for teachers. I'd have made a lot more money teaching these last 28 years.

6. I know damn well there is a shelter in my community, because I happen to contribute money to it. Ironically enough I had a revelation about eight years ago - I realized I was in an abusive relationship. That I was being verbally abused almost daily - at work - by my supervisor. And it seemed there was not a damned thing I could do about it. My employer seemed to have policies against racial discrimination and against sexual harrassment, but made no mention of straight up bullying in their handbook.

7. uh huh, and that right there shows a major flaw in this white male privilege nonsense. You just ASSUME that you know what my life is like. That I have walked around on this earth for 52 years having people "listen to me with respect". That simply does NOT fit the life which I have actually lived. I have lived a life as a puny guy with a low status job. Here's the thing about being "the skinny guy". In general, other guys do NOT respect you, because they are pretty sure they can kick your a$$. And females, they don't respect you either, because they are pretty sure that most other guys can kick your a$$. Yeah, sure, people listen to me with respect. In some fantasy world - not in the real one I've actually lived in. There I am, delivering papers, and there's the future homecoming queen with a group of friends - making fun of me.

Maybe she didn't realize I was a white male.

[Chiquitita]

81. hfojvt

This is a great response, very enlightening; thank you for taking the time to write it -- and this is where things come down to people's individual lives.

[noiretextatique]

12. it is sad that you have to post this

racism exists, and so does sexism. adults should be able to talk about those damaging isms without disclaimers identifying themselves as one of the "good guys." as you said: that is completely irrelevant. one of the privilege of privilege is defining the debate, including denial the existence of privilege.

[Nye Bevan]

13. White male privilege is a simply horrible thing.

Two or three times a week when I am in traffic someone will roll down their window and pass me some grey poupon.

[Skittles]

15. SCHEDULING NYE BEVAN FOR ASS KICKING

*EGREGIOUS*

[MrScorpio]

18. I couldn't have written this better myself

Damn Skippy!

[BainsBane]

20. Excellent post, but I would add heterosexual privilege to that list.

[YoungDemCA]

22. Great post. Unfortunately, some get so defensive that they feel they are being personally attacked..

In doing so, however, they (sometimes successfully) manage to shut down the voices of those who actually experience oppression and discrimination.

[BainsBane]

25. That is their intention. N/t

[Number23]

26. Exactly. The responses to the thread in this forum trying to examine why so many whites vote Repub

is a classic example of what you're saying. Some folks seemed to go out of their way to take offense or even to try to cast blame and aspersions on others, even when it was obvious that the OP was speaking in very general terms based on well-known and established voting patterns.

Even as a child, I remember hearing about "the black vote," "the Asian vote," "the Hispanic vote." Apparently, every single ethnic group in America can be examined by their statistical voting practices but white people. White people, as the majority in every single measurable way, are simply not used to that type of analysis and I've seen that it makes them INCREDIBLY uncomfortable. Probably with good reason.

[boston bean]

57. Good fucking point! Thank you!

[ismnotwasm]

64. Yes

Exactly

[AverageJoe90]

73. There are a few who do get too defensive, yeah. That IS true.

However, though, ACTUAL silencing of POCs, contrary to what I admittedly used to believe, is, thankfully, rare in settings such as DemocraticUnderground and mainstream feminism and when it actually does happen, it gets called out by people from many different walks of life, and rightly so.

However, though, as much as I hate to say this, I have noticed that a few more radical social justice "warriors", who do, themselves, get WAY too defensive, and may engage in attempts to silence opinions that they don't agree with, with slogans such as "all white people are racist/oppressors", "you/we can't understand me/them because you're/we're white", "X statement and Y statement is white privilege", either without explaining, or going off on a tirade, etc. And, btw, a damn good number of this tiny group are white folks themselves, and in fact, in many cases from what I've seen, it's been People of Color who have called out stuff like this for what it is; divisive, stupid, and even prejudiced.

[Number23]

24. Not just male. I've walked away from so many feminist conversations because I am so sick and fucking

tired of how quickly the conversation turns to "if this was RACISM, this would be handled COMPLETELY differently!" I don't know what to do with myself.

[upaloopa]

27. This is so full of it !

Look! Privilege is GIVEN to someone by another.

No one has any say as to what race they are born into.
Any White male growing up aware of his surroundings knows he is given privileges that others are not given.
What you do with privilege is what matters. Do you use it for selfish gain like the Kochs or do you use it for the common good.

Please all you guilt trippers who are hung up on this White Privilege meme stop and ask yourself am I talking to myself here?
Your like the tea baggers. What you are ranting against doesn't exist and I don't mean privilege doesn't exist. I mean White guys that need your insight do not exist.

[Sheldon Cooper]

33. lol

[Gravitycollapse]

39. The privileged need this insight the most.

Privilege is only truly visible when it is absent. In other words, the underprivileged see the problem while most of the privileged, especially the decent people I talk about, have no idea.

Privilege is ascribed by society. It is inherent in the social hierarchy.

[NuclearDem]

59. No.

"Any White male growing up aware of his surroundings knows he is given privileges that others are not given."

No, they don't. That's the whole damn point of discussing this.

Spend any time discussing rape culture and you'd understand that.

[Puzzledtraveller]

85. +1

[uponit7771]

91. Most people are NOT aware, that's false on it's face

[dotymed]

30. IMO,

Privilege comes from class (money), not sex or skin color.
The real privileged do appreciate the cover though.

[Gravitycollapse]

40. Marxism gets a lot of things right.

The insistence that ALL conflict is inherently class related is an example of how Marxism misses by a country mile.

[ejpoeta]

78. tell that to the kid who got arrested for buying a $300 belt.

of course there was no way he could have actually BOUGHT that.... it had to be stolen!!

[LittleBlue]

32. Two questions

1) Rather than saying white male privilege, why not describe minorities as underprivileged? Not being discriminated against isn't a privilege, that should be an irrevocable right. Those who are discriminated against are wronged, or if you want a different term, underprivileged. Actual economic privilege has to be determined on an individual level depending on the person's economic situation.

2) Forget about #1 and say I accept this. What are privileged people supposed to do? Not take jobs? Give to charity? Vote Democratic? What are people supposed to do with the knowledge from this ideology? I asked what we're supposed to do about privilege in a privilege thread before and got no answers.

Thanks

[Gravitycollapse]

35. Not being discriminated against is a form of privilege.

When such a right belongs only to the privileged class.

Just as the right to fiscal security does not mean that the wealthy or financially secure are not privileged in that respect. They are privileged.

[Gravitycollapse]

37. As far as what the privileged should do...

That is complicated. And not necessarily something I can explain on my lunch break. Even worse, that your question exists does not mean a complete answer exists. For some privilege, I don't think anyone knows how to combat it effectively. Some of these issues have not been fully theorized on yet. It's a work in progress.

[AverageJoe90]

47. Pretty much what I was saying. Good points here! nt

[uponit7771]

93. "Vote Democratic?"... yes, all the time... every time.. until they get really stupid too

[Chiquitita]

43. Thanks Gravity

You said it well in the OP and continue to do so in your comments.

[Skip Intro]

45. I don't feel privileged at all.

I mean, I may be living large and unaware of that fact because it is just beyond my perception. Anything is possible.

But with the last four years of my life filled with dealing with repeated near foreclosure, no health insurance (no, ACA won't change that for me), exhausted unemployment benefits, food stamps, etc, I gotta say, I don't feel one bit privileged.

[cyberswede]

66. But privilege isn't about an individual's circumstances

It's a societal thing.

I don't feel privileged, either, but a woman of color in my exact circumstances would have things a little more difficult than I do - to say nothing of the unlikely prospect that she'd been afforded the opportunities I (and my parents and grandparents) had over the last couple generations in the first place.

[AverageJoe90]

72. True, but that's more of a case of the WOC being UNDERprivileged.....

than you or I being OVERprivileged, at least in the case of America, any way.

[Gravitycollapse]

67. Privilege is not someone showing up at your house and handing you a million dollars.

It's systemic advantage given to you because of your specific caste.

[leftstreet]

70. Wait a minute

You said previously Marx got it wrong

[Gravitycollapse]

75. Sorry, I used caste incorrectly in this context.

I meant to refer to ascribed status in the social hierarchy. Such as being female or male or black or white or hispanic, etc.

Marx specifically focused on economic class. And I think he got it very, very, very wrong.

[leftstreet]

84. Oprah Winfrey

[AverageJoe90]

74. TBH, it's not so much that we're privileged....

as pointing out People of Color are UNDERprivileged. That, from what I've read, was the original true intent behind the crafting of the term "white privilege". Does that make sense?

[AverageJoe90]

46. GC, while I realize full well that I, as a "white" "cis" guy that I am certainly more fortunate.....

Than a Person of Color, or an LGBT person, or someone who is disabled, etc., who face more societal disadvantages on average, I have recently begun to question if the use of the word "privilege" is really all that applicable in the case of the United States.

"There seems to be an attempt by some to say that the problem with society is always the "inherently bad" guys who aren't liberal, progressive white males."

The sad truth is, this has exactly been the large majority of the problem, particularly where Civil Rights & feminism were concerned. Of course, there certainly are fools and assholes out there who do actively uphold such(about 15% of the population, virtually all of them hard or far-right), and other dupes who unknowingly do so(about 25%, give or take a few percent, some of them conservative, but some moderates as well).

Little things that you don't necessarily notice aggregate together with others to create a massive social, legal and political influence.

True, but again, most of this is greatly reinforced by a small group of influential reactionaries & opprotunists for some perceived gain, whether it be monetary or otherwise, with plenty of fools to go along and help them.

Not being consistently viewed as a sexual object is something men benefit from every single day of their lives. Not being profiled as a criminal because of their skin color is a benefit white persons possess every day they are alive.

This isn't so much a benefit for anyone(except perceived as such by a reactionary few!).....here in America, the latter is the norm.....rather, it's a *disadvantage* faced by women and POCs respectively.

...are unwilling to admit that...

This is not at all what I've seen; to the contrary, those who have the most power are typically proud of it and will do anything to hold on to it, even if they're willing to disguise their intentions at first.

So when we talk about the privileged white male, that is not an attack on you personally as an independent human being.

I don't believe this is the case here, no. But, sadly, it does happen. There are a few people who do abuse the term to bash white people; and that needs to be called out.

When a person of a truly privileged class denies these benefits, power is multiplied and the issue is made worse.

Here's the problem, though. This whole "benefits" argument falls apart completely when you realize that all things like racism, sexism, etc., societal or institutional(there IS a difference, btw) have ever done is divide people and set us against one another for the gains of a select few, perceived or otherwise at least in this country.

Let me ask you a question: did the vast majority of Germans benefit from anti-Semitism, and later, the Holocaust under the Nazis, whilst their livelihoods were being plundered & trashed by the real criminals?
Do the people in Israel, today, benefit from anti-Palestinian racism & other prejudice?
Do the people of Iran as a whole benefit from the institutionalize discrimination against "undesirables&quot such as Jews and Zoroastrians!), which remains widespread today, while the Mullahs continue to misrule & oppress them all?
Do the French people as a whole benefit from the problems brought on by anti-Islamic discrimination that's been happening?
Did the Japanese people as a whole benefit from the ethnic cleansing & mass-murder of Chinese people in the '30s, or discrimination against Koreans in more recent times?

[Wolf Frankula]

48. You Forget a form of Male Privilege that No Longer Exists.

The privilege of being drafted, forced into uniform, taken from your home and sent to kill and die because the President wanted to look tough.

Wolf

[Gravitycollapse]

54. That happens mostly because of the male hero complex.

Which is a self-inflicted wound by men against themselves for several idiotic reasons.

[ejpoeta]

79. that's because women are the weaker sex! oh us women... we may become hysterical!!

I believe if there is going to be a draft it should be equal... Women should be included. And I am a woman with 3 daughters. I don't want them to have to go to a war, but I don't believe you can ask men to do that and not women. It's just not fair.

[Bradical79]

105. A self granted "privilege"

So not sure how that's relevant. It's not like wives, sisters, and mothers were all to happy with their family members going overseas to die. Are you implying there was some sort of equitable trade off? Lol.

[Wolf Frankula]

123. I'm nor saying it was 'self granted'

Most draftees I know didn't think it was a privilege. And I didn't say wives, sisters and mothers were happy with it.

And it wasn't an exclusive white 'privilege'. Non whites were also taken as cannon fodder.

Wolf

[Eleanors38]

80. The bold portion: Rings like the "invisible hand of the market place."

[polichick]

92. K&R

[Vashta Nerada]

94. "Not being consistently viewed as a sexual object is something men benefit from every single day of

their lives."

Ha. Read the facebook page of our college's love confessions. You'll see that men and women both equally treat each other as sex objects.

[Gravitycollapse]

96. That is a myth. The sexual objectification of women is ever-present.

Men do not have to deal with such a thing.

[Vashta Nerada]

98. I'm not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic.

But I'm not lying. Young women and young men (ages 18-22) objectify each other equally on that facebook page.

[Gravitycollapse]

100. Two things: First, 18-22 year old Facebook pages are not even remotely close...

to being a good cross section of a specific society.

Second, I am between the age of 18 and 24 and I can tell you that there is very little difference between a good cross section of society and said Facebook pages. The pages are plastered with all sorts of gender inequities.

[Vashta Nerada]

102. I didn't claim they were a good cross-section of society.

I was merely pointing out that 18-22 year old males and females at my school treat each other as sexual objects equally.

Good god.

[Gravitycollapse]

103. If your claim is your school is a egalitarian sexist utopia, you're wrong.

A general principle of sexist hierarchical structures is that they pervade EVERY aspect of society. There may be slight variation but there is no true exception in a general system like a school.

[Vashta Nerada]

104. Right.

Do tell me how MY school is. Do you go here? No?

Okay then.

[Gravitycollapse]

107. Which school is it?

[Vashta Nerada]

108. I don't feel comfortable giving away information like that on a public discussion forum.

I don't need the Conservative Cavers keeping tabs on me.

[Gravitycollapse]

109. If you're too afraid to give a specific example, don't talk about how said example is so important.

Maybe a little lesson for you next time. You have no specific obligation to tell me other than the fact that it's asinine to attempt to counter my argument with a specific example and then when asked what the specific example was, you are too afraid to let it loose.

Booo.

[Vashta Nerada]

111. What's so hard about understanding that I don't want to be stalked online?

[Gravitycollapse]

115. That's the risk you take when you use your personal life as specific counter examples.

[Bradical79]

118. Gravitycollapse probably knows better than you do

About your own school if you use an inherently biased Facebook page as evidence of anything. What you know about is what people choose to post on that Facebook page, and what you personally think you've observed when you are with your own social group.

[Bradical79]

110. Your school's facebook page is hardly relevant

Its not even a good indicator of attitudes at your school, much less relevant to society at large.

[Vashta Nerada]

113. Did I say it was?

That's a negative, Ghost Rider.

[Gravitycollapse]

117. Yes, actually you did. You are using that one example to counter everything else.

[Bradical79]

119. Yes, you did. In plain English.

" the facebook page of our college's love confessions. You'll see that men and women both equally treat each other as sex objects"

[Vashta Nerada]

121. At my college.

I didn't say it represents the whole country. FFS. Reading comprehension, people.

[Bradical79]

122. Your response was to someone talking about society at large

There's no comprehension problem. Though the reason your argument is irrelevant to the discussion of our nation that you responded to applies to your university as well. Its not just a sample size problem, but using social media posts as an argument for pretty much anything. You just don't seem to understand that your browsing of a Facebook page, and experience with your immediate social group still isn't relevant when talking about your university as a whole either. Or that sexual objectification isn't just about thinking naughty thoughts and posting them on a Facebook page that is inherently geared for such things.

[dawg]

112. I'm one of the most privileged people in the world.

That doesn't mean my life is always rosy and wonderful. But I always try to be aware of how much more difficult my circumstances would be if I didn't have the truckload of advantages that came to me due to the circumstances of my birth.

Acknowledging my privilege helps me to keep my head on straight. It also encourages me to make choices that are empowering to others, especially those who aren't as privileged.

[seabeyond]

125. sigh... yes. just this.

it makes us a better person. there is nothing wrong in that.

no, it does not mean life is rosey. but not dealing with stuff others are simply cause they are black, gay, woman, minority....