Pope Francis drives an '84 Renault...

[babylonsister]

I am not religious, but this Pope is pretty impressive imo.

[hrmjustin]

1. I love it.

[Coyotl]

120. Photo here:

Errata 186,000 miles

[hrmjustin]

123. Thanks. Great pic.

He is a breath of fresh air. I hope he brings the church to the left.

[itsrobert]

2. It must be a miracle

for the Renault to run that long.

[MADem]

10. His car is only 2 years older than mine....

...and mine is still running like a champ.

Waste not, want not....

[DesertFlower]

16. i had an 81 renault 18i. loved it, but

it was nothing but problems. when the alliance came out and was voted car of the year 2 years in a row i bought one. again -- problems.

[WCIL]

40. I had an '86 Alliance

Dodge bought it back when they bought Renault. They had to tow it out of the driveway.

[DesertFlower]

133. i paid almost $10,000 for mine (new).

i took it to a used car dealer in '89. they offered me $1,000. i said "i'll donate to charity and take the tax deduction before i sell it to you for that."

i had to replace the transmission a little after a year. cost me about $1800. i threatened to sue the dealership and we settled for around $800. i couldn't handle the grief they gave me.

sold it in '89 for $2,000 to a neighbor. hope he had better luck with it than i did. i had an ad in the Buy Lines and the only people who answered the ad were foreigners.

this was when we were getting ready to move from new york to phoenix. there was no way i was going to bring that car here. picked up an '89 toyota tercel from avis with $6,000 miles on it. don't remember what i paid but it was a good deal. we shipped the tercel to phoenix and when we got here we bought an '87 toyota corolla with about 30,000 miles on it. i had to get an older one because the '89 and '90 had seats that hurt my back. drove that till '94 when i bought a new toyota celica. i totaled it in '97 and picked up another corolla -- a '97 with 12,000 miles on it. they wanted $13,000. i said "i'll give you $12,000 and i drove it out of there". had that till '05 when i bought my mazda miata. i was a little scared. i had sworn to only buy toyotas, but the reviews were consistent and i still have it. it only has 30,000 miles on it. dealership wanted to give me $1,000 on a trade. i told him to go to hell and sold it privately for $4500 to a lovely young woman. she asked if she could have a mechanic check it out and i agreed. mechanic told her she was getting a good car.

hubby bought a '98 corvette in '99. it was a lemon. i kept telling him to bring it back but he wouldn't. can't tell you how many times he was towed. thank goodness we purchased a warranty. in 2001 he made an even trade for a new 2001 toyota tundra (a really nice one). when he passed away in 2012 my friend howie took care of selling it for me. he took it to his house and i guess he put it on craig's list. he got me $8900 for it. i couldn't believe it.

hubbie also had a porsche 911. got his dream car 2 years before he passed. it was a year old when he bought it. howie tried selling it privately but in this economy people don't have that kind of money. he sold it to porsche. hubby paid $85,000 and they gave me $48,000. hubby used to say the only people he'd see at the porsche dealership were people our age -- the only ones who could afford it -- unless you're a rich kid or a doctor.

hubby used to tell me to buy a porsche boxter. i think he felt bad that he paid so much for a car, but honestly i think my miata is nicer looking. maintaining it is easy. porsche charges $200 for an oil change because they have to pull the motor. i don't have the kind of personality for that. men think about cars differently than women do. even when he had his dream car he'd be looking at other porsche's on the road. i get a car i like and as long as it runs well i keep it.

i'm 72 and driving a miata with a handicap plaque. i get some strange looks. i do try to not use the handicap spots if i can get close enough to where i'm going.

BTW. we kept the tundra because i didn't like riding in the porsche. it was a stick shift and i like a smooth ride. also needed it to take my mom around. having 2 sports cars with nothing else is not practical. hubby was a big guy and said when he rode in my miata that he felt like a sausage.

i went off on a rant, didn't i?

[liberalmuse]

101. It is.

My sister had a Renault. We had to push it to get it going, LOL. Granted, she did successfully tow a U-Haul trailer behind it at one time for about 1,000 miles. So I guess I could say it ran well once it got started...

[Drunken Irishman]

106. My dad drove a 1983 Dodge Rampage when he died in 2010...

My brother took it over and it still drives.

[Ohio Joe]

3. oh joy... Another 'look how great the pope is' thread...

A shame the guy has not and will not actually change any of the vile policies of the church. Fuck him.

[dballance]

5. Wow, Bitter Much?

Sure, with all the well-entrenched hierarchy of Cardinals and Bishops he does stand little chance of making sweeping reforms. I won't deny that.

But, if he can throw off even a little spark that may eventually catch fire then more power to him.

Okay, call me Pollyanna.

[Ohio Joe]

7. Bitter... No. I just don't get all this love for someone so against liberal values

He is the pope... He does not need anyones support when it comes to matters of doctrine, the whole infallible thing. He can make whatever changes he wants whenever he wants to, just don't expect any. Women will remain second class, LGBT people will remain outcast & evil and on and on.

Cute cartoons and photo op's may fool some into thinking things are changing but when the guy with absolute authority to make those changes gives nothing but a little lip service... Nothing is really changing. I prefer to call it what it is rather then fall for the bullshit.

[Mz Pip]

12. The Pope isn't infallible all of the time

It was decades ago the last time aPope went Ex Cathedra.

[Ohio Joe]

19. Not doing it is the whole problem

According to his own word, he is infallible in all matters of doctrine... That he does not use it to better things is the problem.

[Katashi_itto]

33. Shows you've no idea what your talking about.

Statements by a pope which exercise papal infallibility are referred to as "solemn papal definitions" or ex cathedra teachings.

According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra papal teaching are as follows:
1. "the Roman Pontiff"
2. "speaks ex cathedra" ("that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority"....)
3. "he defines"
4. "that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"
5. "must be held by the whole Church" (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4)

For a teaching by a pope or ecumenical council to be recognized as infallible, the teaching must be a decision of the supreme teaching authority of the Church (pope or College of Bishops); it must concern a doctrine of faith or morals; it must bind the universal Church; and it must be proposed as something to be held firmly and immutably. The terminology of a definitive decree will usually make clear that this last condition is fulfilled, as through a formula such as "By the authority of Our Lord Jesus Christ and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by Our own authority, We declare, pronounce and define the doctrine . . . to be revealed by God and as such to be firmly and immutably held by all the faithful", or through an accompanying anathema stating that anyone who deliberately dissents is outside the Catholic Church.[15]

For example, in 1950, with Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII's infallible definition regarding the Assumption of Mary, there are attached these words:

Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which We have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.
In July 2005 Pope Benedict XVI stated during an impromptu address to priests in Aosta that: "The Pope is not an oracle; he is infallible in very rare situations, as we know".[16] His predecessor Pope John XXIII once remarked: "I am only infallible if I speak infallibly but I shall never do that, so I am not infallible".[17] A doctrine proposed by a pope as his own opinion, not solemnly proclaimed as a doctrine of the Church, may be rejected as false, even if it is on a matter of faith and morals, and even more any view he expresses on other matters. A well-known example of a personal opinion on a matter of faith and morals that was taught by a pope but rejected by the Church is the view that Pope John XXII expressed on when the dead can reach the beatific vision.[18] The limitation on the pope's infallibility "on other matters" is frequently illustrated by Cardinal James Gibbons's recounting how the pope mistakenly called him Jibbons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

[Bluenorthwest]

38. You understand that flinging your own dogmatic theology does not excuse the anti gay bullshit

and that the theological rhetoric only matters to believers, not to those they attack. Francis calls gay couples an 'attack on God'. You seem to endorse and defend him. That's all I see in your torrent of excuses.

[Javaman]

44. +1 nt

[Ohio Joe]

49. Agreed

It astounds me how a few photo op's and a bit of lip service with no action behind it can fool people.

[Bluenorthwest]

52. The Pope has a raft of Don Drapers all his own.

nt

[KittyWampus]

65. Once again you verge on accusing someone of being anti-gay. All the DU'er you responded to did

was define ex cathedra.

[Bluenorthwest]

68. I am directly saying that Francis is anti gay and that spouting Catholic dogma does not excuse that.

Those who think definitions of their superstitions somehow mitigate horrific bigotry are helping to legitimize that bigotry. They sure as hell are not pro gay, they are on the opposite side, promoting those who slander gay people and announcing their affection for the hate monger.
When asked about homophobia and sexism, spouting off about faith tenants is an evasion. All those definitions of made up things matter only to those who believe them, not to those attacked by that organization.
Folks who insult my family will get harsh criticism from me, and that's Francis and also those who attempt to make his hate teachings charming or who want to excuse the bigotry and ignorance because he drives a freaking car. 'Sure he hates gays, but he drives!!!' How can anyone say that and not vomit a little?

[Bluenorthwest]

74. And I came back to add this: if you don't want to talk about the politicss of the Pope, don't make

OP's about him in the General Discussion area of a political discussion board, a forum that explicitly says religious subjects are not welcome. Go to religion groups with dogma and theological excuses for human actions. To do so in a political forum and then complain when others do not share the theology and see the issues as political and human is an arrogance beyond measure. Francis is the world's leading anti gay cleric. If folks want to praise him in a political forum, they need to accept that fact. To deny it is a horrific lie. Francis is also the world's leading opponent of reproductive choice and equality for women. It is simply wrong to demand that those who do not hold that faith pretend otherwise in a political forum.
I assume, to be clear, that any discussion of Francis or religious things that is placed with intention in General Discussion is meant to be discussed politically because of the fact that religion is not a subject allowed in General Discussion and because there are groups on DU in which matters of faith and religious leaders are protected from political discussion. If it is in GD, it is political, not religious. That's how GD works.
If folks want to gather to adore Francis, they should not do so in GD. They should follow the rules like everyone else.

[Vashta Nerada]

79. Anyone who supports an anti-gay person (in general) supports anti-gay views, by extension.

It's just like Democrats who supported Chris Christie for reelection. They support his views, by extension.

This pope kisses disfigured people and drives a piece of shit car. Yet he still is anti-gay, anti-women, anti-choice, all the stuff liberals like me and you stand for.

[Ohio Joe]

57. That looks to prove what I said...

The very first part of your link:

"Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church which states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error[1] "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,

he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church

".[2]"

Emphasis is mine.

Sure looks like he could make changes to me. Tell me though... If he were to (in the prescribed manner) declare women could be ordained, what would the rest of the church do?

Remove him from office?

Ignore him?

I don't think they would be able to do either of those things... I think if he wanted, he could drag the church kicking and screaming into the modern world and all of this non-sense about it being a long slow process is simply that... Non-sense.

[Shivering Jemmy]

32. The pope just can't make infallible doctrine

1). He needs to speak ex cathedra. That happens maybe a few times a century.

2). There needs to be something like a consensus at the Vatican. Popes need backup and cover for doctrinal change.
If he does something too radical his changes would be reversed by a reactionary pope after he's out of office.

By changing tone and emphasis he is creating room for change in the composition of the college of Cardinals which will allow true and long term change.

[Bluenorthwest]

37. These 'We love the anti gay leader' threads are intentional attacks on minority peoples.

This is the same as praising Pat Robertson for having a Prius. It is rude. It is also decidedly against the SOP of GD, which says religious subjects are not welcome in GD.

[SidDithers]

9. +1...nt

Sid

[MADem]

11. Direct your gaze at the thread-starting post.

Look at the right-most button on the bottom left of the post. Click on it.

Your problem is solved.

Or, you can keep kicking the thread with negativity--it won't change a thing, you know.

I think the time to judge this guy's historical impact on the institution he leads is some time after his funeral....and that's not likely to happen for some time. He lives simply, cooks his own food, and avoids sycophants.

[Ohio Joe]

18. The pope avoids sycophants...

heh... The leader of a religion with millions of blind followers... Too funny

[MADem]

24. Well, your comment isn't supported; I don't think John F. Kennedy was a "blind follower."

His brothers Ted or Robert, either. Joe Biden, blind follower? Nancy Pelosi, blind follower? John Kerry, blind follower? Kathleen Sebelius, blind follower?

To name just a few well known "followers" of that particular faith. Let's not even get into the anonymous people who pick, choose and refuse the bits and bobs of the "rules" that they don't care for (funny how they all have much, much smaller families than their grandparents) ....and they aren't worried about "infallibility" either.

I gave you advice that I thought was useful to avoid distress and upset. Obviously, that's not your interest. Trash Thread is still your friend, though. Generalizing about people is your enemy, I think.

Also, you might want to look up "sycophant" because I think you're unclear on the meaning.

[Ohio Joe]

42. Non-sense

To start, I don't know that I believe any politician is an actual 'believer'... I think they claim it to get elected because if they called religion for the silliness it is, they never would.

Every last true believing member (and there are indeed millions of them) is nothing but a suck up... Generally doing whatever they are told, no matter if they think it is wrong, because they fear the inevitable. Look at any of the pope threads in GD... Full of people that are good liberals sucking up to and defending this asshole who is most definitely not a liberal... Anyone, not the pope, who held his views would be resoundingly blasted by all of these same people.

[MADem]

83. No it isn't "non-sense" at all. Why would you have to go to the lengths to use the

"Oh they didn't really MEAN it" argument to make your case? And then, you finish up with broad-brushed, gratuitous insult against against a rather large group of people you do not even know!

That's nonsense, right there!

When Joe Biden says (repeatedly, with no hesitation, and with all apparent sincerity) he's a Catholic, I believe him, I don't think he's "pretending," and I don't hold it against him. I figure he's a smart guy, and he can sort out the whole church/state thing--but I don't EVER try to weakly adapt my views of him by asserting in my mind that he's a LIAR in order to get through the day. That's just .... magical thinking.

[Ohio Joe]

94. It is not an insult, it is a fact

People believe in a super natural being that will save them based on faith alone... They do it because they fear death and it gives them comfort about it. They will hate and persecute others... Treat them as inferior... All because of their fear.

We will curse and fight against repugs that want women and LGBT people to be second class and everyone here agrees... Do the same against the pope, who does the same, and we are not being tolerant... WTF? There is some real magical thinking for you.

[MADem]

98. For someone who purports to be such a know-it-all on this topic, you are incredibly defensive!

Combative, too! I think some of that fear you're talking about is coming from you!

Everyone here agrees, you say? How about these people? Do they "hate and persecute others?" Do they "Treat them as inferior?"

http://www.newwaysministry.org/

I don't think they agree with you at all. And I'll bet most of 'em are Democrats, too. Shall we toss THEM over the side because they don't see things "your" way?

You assume "facts" not in evidence, and you're pretty darned rude when you do it, too. Hide thread is your friend, as I said. All you're doing by lashing out at people (and that includes gay people, too) who have hope for a better church based on the signals this new guy has been putting out. Why do you care so much that you want to crush their hope for a better place of worship, that's the question, here. Why is it so important to you to stomp on their desires?

You probably ought to ask those Catholics (to include our VP, Joe Biden) how they feel before you condemn them with your "pontificating" commentaries. Or, you can read this study:


http://publicreligion.org/research/2011/03/for-catholics-open-attitudes-on-gay-issues/

It's pretty obvious that the Catholic Church is (albeit slowly, ponderously and painfully) headed in the right direction. I'm not going to stop them and repeatedly, incessantly, and with an "unforgiven" attitude, scold them for past behavior if they're on the right track. You don't have that ability, I notice. That's a bit of a flaw, IMO. You shouldn't take these things so personally. It doesn't do you any good. You should also read the study I've linked to, above, because you don't have an accurate view at all of how the Catholics actually feel about equality issues, these days.

[Ohio Joe]

102. "Everyone here"...

I was talking about DU... But I think you knew that.

What is the churches feelings on equality? The popes? Let see:

As bishop and Pope, Francis restated the Church's teaching: that homosexual practice is intrinsically immoral, but that every homosexual person should be treated with respect and love (because temptation is not in and of itself sinful).[302][303] He opposes same-sex marriage; when Argentina was considering legalizing it in 2010, Bergoglio opposed the legislation,[304][305] calling it a "real and dire anthropological throwback".[306] In July 2010, while the law was under consideration, he wrote a letter to Argentina's cloistered nuns in which he said:[304][307][308]

In the coming weeks, the Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family...At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God's law engraved in our hearts.

Let's not be naive: This is not a simple political fight; it is a destructive proposal to God's plan. This is not a mere legislative proposal (that's just its form), but a move by the father of lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God... Let's look to St. Joseph, Mary, and the Child to ask fervently that they defend the Argentine family in this moment... May they support, defend, and accompany us in this war of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Francis

Looks like facts in evidence to me. You can give examples of other churches being accepting... Even catholic members who want the church to be accepting... Thats great, I'm all for it. The catholic church itself however has no plans to change and is not giving any indication that is going to change. That will not get my support, nor do I see any reason to ignore it.

[MADem]

112. Now you purport to know the bona fides of "everyone here" on DU!

Really--I should think that members of that ministry would be reluctant to pop their heads up here, given your aggressiveness towards them.

And that doesn't change the data in the study I provided--after all, aren't we, at DU, made up of the larger population?

You keep quoting him as a CARDINAL....but I notice you can't come up with a single "Gays suck!" phrase from him as a Pope. I've given you an article about that--and you ignore it, because for some odd reason you feel a double-down need to prosecute a thesis that the guy is incapable of change.

I find that curious.

And I also find your cherry picking of that WIKI curious. You forgot these paragraphs--they're more recent, said when he was POPE, not a Cardinal back in Argentina:

According to two gay rights activists, Marcelo Márquez and Andrés Albertsen, in private conversations with them, Bergoglio expressed support for the spiritual needs of "homosexual people" and willingness to support "measured actions" on their behalf.[312][316]

Discussing homosexuals (people in general and clergy), he said in July 2013 "If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge them?"[302]—reminding people to seek and encourage obedience to God, echoing the sentiments of Saint Peter in Acts 10:34b-35, "I truly understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone" who respects God and "does what is right is acceptable".[317]

Perhaps this Pope has a "measured strategy" to roll out those "measured actions?"

Just as the Pope now says that it's not for HIM to judge, it's not for me to judge what's in the guy's heart. I don't know, and frankly, neither to you, so you might just stop pretending you do. Sometimes the easiest way--if not the shortest--to get from point A to point B is not a straight (pardon the pun) line. That might be his plan, who knows?

He probably likes living. Radical change could get him killed. Ask the ghost of JP the First.

But hey, hate on, if that's what you need to do. For someone who affects disdain for religions, you're certainly rather upset about this guy--even as he sidles towards humanity and away from intolerance.

[Ohio Joe]

115. Yes... I assume all of DU is for equal rights

Did you miss the part at the start where it says "As bishop and

Pope

"

A "measured strategy" wins him no points in my book... I support full equal rights and nothing less.

"you're certainly rather upset about this guy"

I'm not upset about him... I'm not upset about anything... I'm disappointed his much less then equality strategy is supported here instead of being called out for what it is and that anyone who points it out is attacked.

[MADem]

117. Now you pretend that people who are pleased at the Pope's progress are not "for equal rights."

And that's just not true, and you know it, but you say it anyway. And I didn't miss the part that says "As Bishop and Pope." You posted the Bishop part....and I pointed out that you skipped posting the "Pope" part--and I cut and pasted it for you.

Gee, nothing like calling attention to your own transgressions, there!

And really--no one cares about "your book." All you've done here is be negative and nasty, when there was really no need. You have options--hide thread was held out early on--yet you plowed on, hollering at everyone who doesn't feel like you do, as though being hopeful that this Pope might have some success to try to improve a moribund institution is the equivalent of bigotry, when it's just not.

And you do it in a thread about a CARTOON that talks about an OLD CAR as a metaphor for possible change in an entrenched hierarchy.

Upset...disappointed? All I know is that you took a light-hearted thread about a car belonging to a guy who has started to move a rather sombre and negative institution into a more positive light and you shit all over it.

That, to me, smells like "upset," not "disappointment."

Of course, your contributions have allowed the thread to hit MILESTONE after MILESTONE, and get way more hits and views than it would have gotten had you just hidden the thread or gone and done something else.

[Ohio Joe]

121. Perhaps you should take your own advice

You don't like the pope being called out for being what he is... Perhaps it is you who should not look. Me... I don't think I'll be bullied off of pointing out the lame lip service and photo op's. I think I'll keep calling it for what it is... Fucked up and not deserving of any cheers.

[Katashi_itto]

34. Blind hatred, a good description of your posts...

[Ohio Joe]

47. Again... Non-sense

A familiar theme I am seeing from the defenders of this asshole. I point out his actual beliefs and the fact that he is not in any way even close to being someone who should be supported on a site like this and I get described as having blind hatred or being distressed or a bunch of other names to dismiss me as irrational. Non-sense all. I consider anyone who thinks the LGBT community is evil to be an asshole... Anyone who considers women to be makers of evil and second class beings is an asshole... I could go on for a while...

It's not blind hatred... It's clear thinking.

[Katashi_itto]

48. " A familiar theme I am seeing from the defenders of this asshole"

Righhtt...clear thinking oh yeah.

[Ohio Joe]

51. Extremely clear thinking...

Would you defend anyone with the same beliefs who is not the pope?

[Katashi_itto]

53. As a lapsed Catholic who had turned his back on the church, because of the sex scandals

the corruption. I find this pope a change for the good.

Considering you've already shown you don't know what your talking given you your infallible statements.

End game, I see no particular reason to make a case to someone like you, it would be pointless.

[Bluenorthwest]

59. He says gay couples are an attack on God. How can you support that?

Why would you support that? Are you that afraid of LGBT people? Do you think we are out to get you?

[MADem]

84. The answer is, you don't support it.

He also said "Who am I to judge?"

So...do we go with his nasty ass comments as a Cardinal, or his less strident remarks as Pope?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/30/opinion/a-papal-surprise-humility.html?_r=0


I think watching this guy's evolution is interesting. He has a lot of people in his church. Where he goes, they follow (even if many of them are already there).

Discussion of what the Pope thinks and where the Catholic Church is headed IS a valid topic here--an awful lot of Democrats are Catholics, and to paint them with a broad brush a a bunch of bigots and haters, just because their leadership isn't optimized yet, is as much of a mistake as taking the comments of the former Cardinal Bergoglio as some kind of manifesto.

[Ohio Joe]

60. ahhh... Declare victory and leave... heh

"As a lapsed Catholic who had turned his back on the church, because of the sex scandals the corruption. I find this pope a change for the good."

So... You defend him just because he is not as bad... I hate to be the one to tell you but that does not make him good or worthy of defense.

"Considering you've already shown you don't know what your talking given you your infallible statements."

Sorry, perhaps you should check back there again as I am correct according to the link you provided.

"End game, I see no particular reason to make a case to someone like you, it would be pointless."

No worries, there does not seem to be a shortage of people willing to defend him... Though I do notice everyone seems to make the same defense, that he is better... Without acknowledging that he still holds a variety of beliefs (and forcing others to hold those beliefs) that are still pretty nasty.

[Bluenorthwest]

66. When asked specifically about the anti gay and anti woman policies, they refuse to attempt a reply

How can they? To promote Francis here they have to deny the reality and pretend he's not a bigot opposed to women's rights.

[Vashta Nerada]

13. +1

[avaistheone1]

21. The Pope is changing attitudes and hearts.

The Catholic Church does not view itself as a political organization and it changes extremely slowly. This Pope is warp years ahead of his most of his predecessors. Unfortunately many stalwart conservative Catholics are finding it difficult to adjust to this Pope and very upset with his statements and his behavior.

[Ohio Joe]

23. How very nice...

Let me know when he change actual policies... He does have the ability to do it.

[Glassunion]

107. He has changed actual policies.

[Ohio Joe]

108. Really?

Which ones? Can women now be ordained and treated as equals to men? Is the GLBT community still considered intrinsically immoral?

[Glassunion]

109. You made a simple statement: "Let me know when he change actual policies"

I let you know. Now, you seem to have a list of specific demands.

You want a 2000 year old system to change overnight. It's like whining that George Washington did nothing to when it came to women's suffrage. You are blinding yourself intentionally to the changes he is making because they are not the two exact changes you want him to make.

Look, I get it. The Catholic Church has some messed up policies, and those policies need to change. But FFS the guy has been in office for less than 8 months, and you want him to turn the church upside down overnight. This could tear his church apart. Look at something as simple as healthcare in this country. How many filibusters, infighting, budget deadlocks have we had over 1 little policy change in this country? What would a policy change like that do to a world wide organization?

But there is no doubt that this is the most progressive pope to have ever held the office.

[Ohio Joe]

114. No, not my point at all

My point is not that he should change things overnight... It is that we should not be cheering him as though he has changed things over night. We get post after post, day after day about what a great guy he is and how we should all be so glad he is the new pope... Well, I call bullshit on that. He has done nothing and given no indication he is going to do anything to change church policy.

I don't expect the church to change... I'm just amazed at how many here feel it has even though nothing is different.

[Dorian Gray]

28. Yep

While policies are deeply entrenched and changing things would not go over so easily, he's actually LIVING in such a way that models compassion and simplicity. Something past popes have not done.

Is he perfect? Hell no! He's a human being, and he's just as prone to evil and making mistakes as every single one of us. What I do respect about him is that he's truly making an effort to model compassion and simplicity. All the excesses of the Vatican and the Vatican Bank, and all the past ills of the church are still there.

[Ohio Joe]

61. Compassion and simplicity are very nice...

He has a loooooong way to go before I'll consider him even a decent person... Let me know when he does something about the little equality issues the church has. Lip service just does not cut it with me.

[sabrina 1]

80. Is it difficult for you to skip threads that make you so angry?

You've already made it plain that you totally don't understand the significance of what this pope is doing. Seems like a waste of time to me to keep doing it. But it's your time.

[Ohio Joe]

82. What makes you think I'm angry?

Disappointed would better describe what I feel. I understand perfectly what he is doing, it appears to me that it is his defenders that do not understand. I see no reason to give him a pass on his fucked up views just because he is the pope... And I have no idea why anyone here is giving him a pass on them.

[eqfan592]

91. I can't think of another conservative leader out there that gets the sort ...

...of free pass the pope does here. It's really sad, and highlights how little some care about gay rights, reproductive rights, etc.

[Ohio Joe]

96. Agreed

I bet I could find a picture of pat robertson hugging a child if I looked... I'm certain he has spoken out in a valid way about any number of things I would agree with... He is still a PoS that does not deserve an ounce of respect because of the wicked shit he does support.

I really am just not getting what the difference is.

[sabrina 1]

128. Lots of Dems have had 'fucked up views' on issues like Gay Marriage eg. Yet I bet you

voted for them. This pope has moved his Church forward hundreds of years in just a few months on some of those 'fucked up views'. In fact he is more liberal on those views than some of those elected by Dems.

And that is why he is getting so much attention. I'm sure he's not popular with Right Wing Fundies who in the past were able to use the Pope to back up their 'fucked views'. But they can't use this one, and that is what is called 'progress'. One billion people have been told to drop their obsession with Gays and Abortion and start focusing on issues like poverty if they are calling themselves Christians.

Good for him. Lots of Catholic voters here in the US have been told what issues are really important which should be good for the Dem Party re getting more of that vote.

[Vashta Nerada]

4. Oh goody.

Another "the pope is awesome" thread.



Did he piss any rainbows today?

[cali]

25. You've inspired me. I like this Pope. I think I'll start posting threads about him

thanks.

hugs and kisses, oh and blessings on you

[xmas74]

29. Let me know.

I'll post support in each of his threads.

[cali]

30. lol will do

[Bluenorthwest]

55. So you stand with the world's leading Pro Life activist?

You better do another dozen posts about how pro choice you are.

[Vashta Nerada]

76. And I'll reply to every one of them with haughty derision.

[840high]

81. I like this Pope, too.

[eqfan592]

85. So basically open support of an anti gay leader is your plan?

Yeah, have fun with that.

[cali]

118. I am the person on DU who posts- by far and away- the most ops in support of abortion rights

have fun trying to make me out as anti-choice, dear.

[eqfan592]

125. It won't be difficult, given your vehement support for one of the...

...worlds leading anti choice, anti gay leaders, "dear."

It would seem that, at best, you're a hypocrite.

[cali]

130. first of all, it's not vehement, hon.

secondly, I'm capable of dealing with nuance and what I have long termed the "theory of apparent paradox" - wherein two seemingly irreconcilable "truths" (truth, of course, is almost entirely subjective, hence my use of quotation marks) co-exist within the same space/time frame. It's quite different from hypocrisy, but one actually has to be a critical thinker to understand that.

This Pope is already doing good in this world despite his position on abortion. He's modeling loving kindness and humility. Not a bad thing for a leader. He's radically different from his predesesor.

your way of "thinking" is a sad, rigid little construct that requires tossing out such folks as Thomas Merton, the Berrigan brothers and the current Pope- as well as many others.

Merton put abortion in this context:

"It seems a little strange that we [Catholics] are so wildly exercised about the “murder” (and the word is of course correct) of an unborn infant by abortion, or even the prevention of conception which is hardly murder, and yet accept without a qualm the extermination of millions of helpless and innocent adults, some of whom may be Christians and even our friends rather than our enemies. I submit that we ought to fulfill the one without omitting the other."

I reject your impoverished gruel of black and white "thinking" for a richer, more complex view of humanity.

[sabrina 1]

127. He is not anti gay and is the first pope to attack Fundies, here, for their obsession

with abortion and with gay rights. He has made a huge dent in the anti-gay, anti-abortion stance of the Right Wingers in the church. I am certain he is not too popular with them for pointing out that they should be focusing on the poor rather than obsessing over those issues. Iow, he has asked them 'what would Jesus do'. Jesus, the founder of the Church, never mentioned Gays or abortion. Something I have pointed out to fundies who claim to follow the teachings of Jesus, many times, but they refuse to discuss it.

[Katashi_itto]

35. Cool. Will be supporting this pope in all future threads.

[COLGATE4]

36. Stay classy. nt

[fadedrose]

6. The real miracle

is how he got elected to be pope by all those snobby elitist cardinals..

[Bluenorthwest]

41. He is one of them. In Argentina he got famous attacking gay people with venomous hate speech.

He still uses the Pope Moblie, he has the beater to drive around Vatican City. A few blocks of gated, guarded, highly protected private estate. Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth also drives herself on her estate at Balmoral, although like Francis she uses servants and lux cars for public view.

[snooper2]

63. Actually, the real miracle is if it moves under it's own power...

Maybe seeing that thing start might make me a believer

[Brigid]

8. Funny.

[Hekate]

14. TY, babs. Brace yourself, though...

... It gets ugly in here as soon as Pope Francis is mentioned. Oy.

Cute cartoon, btw. I really like this guy. I'm amazed he was elected, but I am hoping for good things to come of it, and in fact things are already happening. I posted about the shakeup at the bank some weeks back, when someone demanded to know what actions he's taken, but sadly no answer ever sufficed then or now.

[Bluenorthwest]

58. Threads about religion are against the SOP of GD, but if they followed the rules the Pope fans would

miss out on a chance to make a display of their anti gay feelings. These threads are intentional aggressions against LGBT and pro choice people. That's why the SOP says no religious threads, that's also why some make religious threads anyway. It is done to cause hurt to good people who are not part of this religion. These Pope threads are bully's works. They use Francis as a tool to attack good people.
Why don't you folks just ask Skinner to ban the gays and get it over with?

[MADem]

90. This is not a thread about religion--it's a thread about a 1984 car with 190,000 km on it, that is

owned by a church leader who lives in a "country" (The Vatican) that has a seat at the UN. His ownership of the car suggests that he is more humble than his predecessors.

There are, I would wager, plenty of practicing Catholics--like Joe Biden--who don't believe that being a practicing Catholic constitutes "aggressions against LGBT and pro choice people." I think these people are hopeful that the Pope will change the climate in their church. They aren't using him to "attack good people," they're hoping for a better day.

I mean, unless you think Joe Biden is a gay-hating anti-choicer...?? Is that what you're saying with that broad brush?

Your last sentence is insulting to Skinner and this website. This isn't Free Republic, where people are afraid to discuss topics. It's also phrased in a very strange way, that makes me question your sincerity. Sure you're not more interested in pot-stirring, in dividing, than trying to find areas of common ground, there? A straw man comment about asking Skinner to "ban the gays" is just a hurtful and rude thing to say. He'd be better off banning the deliberately disruptive, or the willfully obtuse, IMO...!

[babylonsister]

104. wtf are you going on about?

If you're implying I'm anti-gay, you're way off base. I saw a cute 'toon, I posted it. Move on if you don't like it, but don't assume anything.

[MADem]

113. +1,000 !!!! I find it funny that someone who affects a disregard for religions is

flat-out determined to poop all over this thread. Over and over and over again--it's a "tell" as they say!

I think this Pope is most certainly a character for our times, and I think EVERYONE--gay, straight, religious or not--is interested in him because he has the power to turn one of the world's most influential organizations in a new and better direction. He's into the whole "humility" thing, the public service stuff, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, etc., and that makes for a change coming out of Vatican City. Now, the question is, how much further will he go?

It's too soon to know where he'll go from here, but he's making it interesting, and he's at least headed in the right direction in that 84 Renault! Time will tell if he ends up being a transformative guy, or a placeholder who just nudges the can slightly down the road.

[eqfan592]

126. "move on" when we see material openly supporting and promoting...

...one of the world's leading anti gay leaders posted here? Sorry, not gonna fucking happen.

[Hekate]

111. Christ on a trailer hitch

Others replied to you far better than I can.

[hrmjustin]

122. I agree religion posts do not belong here. This post is about a car so I doubt it will be locked.

I do agree that these pope threads belong in the religion room and people should do SOP alerts to the hosts. TThe general rule for hosts on religion is if it has a political aspect it is allowed, if there is no political aspect to it then it does not belong in GD.

[freshwest]

15. It appears the Renault missed the planned obsolescence plan. I wonder how they get parts for it. n/t

[uncle ray]

17. i thought that caller last week on "click n clack" sounded familiar.

[Nine]

27. LOL!

What a call that would be!

eta - I love, "Are you following Jesus this close?"!

[Fumesucker]

20. Sister Bertrille called

She said the Pope can borrow her car for as long as he wants.

[hrmjustin]

22. I think that it is good that the Pope wants to keep things Simple.

[Bluenorthwest]

50. He says gay couples are an attack on God. That's simple alright.

nt

[hrmjustin]

87. I pray he has a change of heart. I think he was just pushing the party line.

[eqfan592]

88. I hope all bigots have a change of heart .

Until they do, you won't find me expressing the sort of devotion towards any of them regularly displayed here on DU. It just goes to show that if you're a nice guy, apparently progressives will give you a free pass on anti gay and anti women bigotry all day long.

[hrmjustin]

92. I left the church for it's anti gay views and became Episcopalain.

I think this guy might change things and I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

But you are right that his feet should be held to the fire.

[eqfan592]

93. I do hope you're correct. nt

[madokie]

26. I'm non religious and I love this Pope

His compassion knows no bounds.

[CountAllVotes]

31. +1

How very sad indeed that people cannot see and understand what a compassionate man is like as they are blinded by their own bigoted hatred which swallows them up. Sad sick lot IMO.

[Bluenorthwest]

45. Francis says gay couples are 'an attack on God' and that gay parents are a 'form of child abuse'

and yet you see him as the victim and those he publicly attacks as bigots? What if I said your family was an attack on God, is that still just good time fun?
How much hate speech can Francis produce before you would criticize him for it?

[MADem]

95. He said that as a Cardinal. As a Pope, he said "Who am I to judge?"

Kinda ruins the narrative, though, doesn't it, to bring that up? That maybe the guy is on a journey to an epiphany...?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/30/opinion/a-papal-surprise-humility.html?_r=0


And there ARE gay Catholics, you know--they aren't throwing the baby out with the bathwater...so you are throwing THEM under the bus, too, when you dismiss the Pope's evolution on this and other subjects:

http://www.newwaysministry.org/

[NYC Liberal]

124. ALL popes say that. It's been in the Catechism for years.

Nothing he has said has contradicted any long-standing Church positions.

Know why he says he doesn't "judge" gay folks? Because the poor people can't help themselves. They were born with a genetic disorder. THAT is why. That is the official church position. He still says gays must remain celibate and essentially deny their sexuality. He still believes gays are not equal to others, and that they should not have equal rights.

[cali]

134. Behind closed doors, pope supported civil unions in Argentina, activist says

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/20/world/americas/argentina-pope-civil-unions

[Triana]

39. I understand he lives in a simple apartment?

I don't know where a Pope usually lives but seem to remember reading about that somewhere.

[Hekate]

135. Yes. He refused to move into the palace -- and make no mistake, it's a palace.

When he was a cardinal he also refused to live in the ornate residence cardinals were expected to inhabit in his city, but instead lived in a small apartment, cooked his own meals, and traveled by public transportation. He could have had an entire staff waiting on him, including chauffeur.

Even more so in Vatican City -- he could live cocooned in splendor, it's all there, bolstered by hundreds and hundreds of years of tradition. But he would be in a Medieval to Renaissance bubble, and he would give up the independence of his own movements in the world.

So he moved into the Vatican guest house and afaik still lives there among people who are not tasked with waiting on him, nor are they self-appointed to "guide" his thoughts and present issues to him as they want him to see them. Don't know if he still cooks his own meals or simply eats what everyone else is having that day. But he's not living in the palace.

There is a Popemobile, and it has a bullet proof glass dome (ever since the 1981 assassination attempt against John Paul II) so the pope can sit up high and wave at the crowds. Also a chauffeur, and guards. He doesn't seem to want to use that, either. Ha! So he bought a very used car.

The College of Cardinals elected this man, and they got him -- all of him -- but they sure can't control his movements or his actions. This isn't "just" symbolism. He seems to be shaking things up considerably, not just by this behavior but in other ways. I think his bank reforms are going to result in some people going to jail in the secular world, but right now heads are rolling and desks have been cleaned out.

The Church has become corrupt, and the whole world knows it by now. I sure won't argue that point, and I'm glad now that my parents left the Church for reasons of their own while I was still an infant.

But as to why we should care about what Pope Francis chooses to do with the opportunity he's been presented, know this: There are 1.2 billion Roman Catholics in this world, and the vast majority of them are just trying to live their lives as best they can, like the rest of humanity. Among their numbers are Joe Biden, and the Berrigan brothers, Cesar Chavez, the Kennedys, and countless others who have used their faith to do real good in this world. I won't stand for the broad-brush smear that says every member of the laity and clergy are corrupt and exist to hurt children, women, gays, lesbians. That's as much a lie as claiming the Church is without stain.

I'm not even a Christian anymore, but I do care very much whether the church of my ancestors manages to clean itself up. Given enough time, Francis could make great strides and lay the groundwork for more. Untangling their warped attitudes and teachings and behaviors regarding human sexuality is not the work of a single day or even year, but it's got to start somewhere, and he may be the man to to begin it.

Sorry Triana -- this goes way beyond your question.

[Triana]

136. :)

Not to worry. I understand your feelings.

I'm not very religious and therefore not Catholic but I've found a few things to like about this Pope - and that's really saying something!

I hope he does very well - he seems to be so far.

[Demo_Chris]

43. His car is older than the kids he ....

Need I say more? He is leading the coverup of the rape and torture of hundreds of thousands of children, involving -- directly or indirectly -- tens of thousands of priests. And that's just in America.

But yeah, he's a swell guy.

[Bluenorthwest]

46. As part of his coverup, he attacks gay people smearing us with the filth his peers are doing

He says gay people raising kids is 'child abuse'. And people here adore him for it.

[Demo_Chris]

56. Yes. But other than THAT...

When he's not covering up for child rapists, slandering and persecuting gays, spearheading the drive to subjugate women, or condemning millions to death by blocking contraceptives, he's swell.

[theHandpuppet]

64. +1

Thanks for the sanity check.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Actually that was his predecessor

He is actually trying, no guarantees he will succeed, to clean things up. But the Curia is very powerful.

[Demo_Chris]

70. nonsense. He can clear things up...

The next time someone hands him a mic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Look I am not catholic

But I understand that doing what you recommend, while perhaps giving you personal pleasure, might earn him some cyanide or lead, use your imagination, and create not a crisis of morals, that's already there...but a legal crisis of enormous proportions.

They are dealing with it. Notice the number of high powered bishops and cardinals, etcetera suddenly going to retirement? And they are quietly not fighting the courts as much. So I realize this might not be satisfying, but they are indeed dealing with it. Hell, Ratzinger resigned due to it, and Francis was not in a place having as many issues. If they selected the American Cardinal, I guarantee you they would not be dealing with it.

[Demo_Chris]

110. Dealing with it is not pretending it didn't happen...

Or comfortable retirement. That's just what they have always done, all while wrapping themselves in the mantle or morality. Fuck that. If he chooses to ACT as his child raping predecessors have acted he deserves the same condemnation they earned for themselves -- the make and model of his car notwithstanding.

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. Nobody is pretending it did not happen

I usually avoid the wiki, but quiet frankly I am tired and the footnotes have plenty of article links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlements_and_bankruptcies_in_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

Pretending it did not happen means no settlements.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

72. "Kids he" what?

Please proceed, governor.

[Demo_Chris]

73. Oops! I was going to say "prayed over"...

Why, what did you think the rest of that sentence would be?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

77. You tell me. You wrote it. nt

[Vashta Nerada]

100. But, he kissed a disfigured man! He drives a cheap old car!

He's the best thing that's happened since Jesus!



I agree with your assessment.

[dembotoz]

54. many "servants of the lord" live very well thank you very much

It would be splendid if this caught on in the prot community as well.

always thought the church was supposed to serve the people not the people serve the church leadership

the separation of the the rest of us from the 1 percent who rule is is not limited to corporate america


i am not and will never be catholic but i do find this pope to be refreshing from his predecessors-both cath and prot

[snooper2]

62. I'm not following this, he is driving one of the biggest POS of the 80's and that makes him awesome?

Or stupid LOL...

I got a 84 Renault! Look how down to Earth I am! Yeah, really down to Earth considering you will be walking all the time He should have just gone one notch down and found one of the few remaining Yugo's on the planet


If he wanted to be cool he should have got something like this Dodge Daytona IROC,

Only 3 Grand!



http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=75074&endYear=2014&modelCode1=DAY&showcaseOwnerId=624229&startYear=1981&makeCode1=DODGE&searchRadius=0&mmt=[DODGE[DAY[]][]]&listingId=357537127&Log=0

[cleanhippie]

69. And presides over the largest patriarchal, misogynistic, homophobic institution in the world.

Why is what he drives important?

[Marrah_G]

71. New PR division of the Vatacin is doing a heck of a job.

[SidDithers]

116. Yup...

Couldn't agree more.

Sid

[gopiscrap]

78. I love the cartoon

he drives a worse car than I do. I drive '99 Pontiac Van

[KamaAina]

89. My coworker drives an '80 Toyota Tercel

could he be the next Pope?

[Nine]

97. I see the Pope as similar to the leader of a foreign country.

I'm not Catholic, but I have an interest in the Pope because he has so much influence over what happens in the world. I like what I have seen so far. I think he's moving the Church in the right direction. I think those who are saying he could do anything he wanted to do and no one in the Church would be able stop him because he is the Pope are simply not being realistic. But beyond that, I'm not really interested in analyzing his soul and putting a "good" or "bad" label on him. Not to compare the Pope with current president of Iran, Hassan Rouhani, but it's hard to deny Rouhani is an improvement over Ahmadinejad, and, as with the Pope, you have to see that as better for the world, even acknowledging that Iran has a long way to go. I think this Pope is making things better. You don't have to be in love with him or the Catholic church to see that. His focus on economic justice and addressing poverty is by itself a very big deal to me.

[LeftyMom]

99. So he's homophobic, sexist and has terrible taste in cars.

[NYC Liberal]

103. Fuck the bigot.

He holds the SAME views as past popes. All his positions on LGBT and Women are exactly what has been stated in the Catechism for years.

If the pope were a politician who held the exact same views as he does now, would anyone here be fawning over him?

Republicans do nice photo-ops too. Some of them live in smaller houses or drive older cars. Do we ever give them a pass on their bigotry because of it? No.

[bklyncowgirl]

105. Very Cute cartoon

I'm an ex-Catholic who thinks that the Catholic church is a homophobic, sexist organization obsessed with the slightly irregular sex lives of ordinary people but willfully blind to the rape of children by members of its own priesthood.

If Pope Francis can change any of that, even the slightest bit, then I applaud him.

[Coyotl]

119. New Popemobile Is a 1984 Renault With 186,000 Miles on It

http://abcnews.go.com/International/popemobile-1984-renault-186000-miles/story?id=20226335

[Zeke L Brimstone]

129. Seems like a righteous bloke

I'm not one of the flock, but still...

[Scurrilous]

131. Good on him!