Yes, I like Pope Francis. Sue me

[cali]

Call me a hypocrite. Berate me for it.

He's modeling loving kindness and humility and I think there's value in having a world leader do that. He's strongly criticized the culture of greed and capitalist excesses. He's focused on those as being great evils.

Yes, he's opposed to abortion. He's opposed to gay marriage. He won't open the priesthood to women. I disagree with him strongly on all the above.

Is it progressive doctrine to utterly reject the Pope because of his positions on abortion, homosexuality, women in the priesthood, etc? If it is, I reject it. but then I've never been fond of doctrines.

The Berrigan Brothers were priests and pro-life. Hell, they were pro-life activists. They were also leaders in the anti-Vietnam war movement and founders of the Plowshares Movement (Philip Berrigan left the priesthood). Am I supposed to hate them too? And yeah, I certainly do see hate here directed at Pope Francis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Berrigan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Berrigan

How about Thomas Merton who was a great humanist?

Thomas Merton, O.C.S.O. (January 31, 1915 – December 10, 1968), was an Anglo-American Catholic writer and mystic. A Trappist monk of the Abbey of Gethsemani, Kentucky, he was a poet, social activist, and student of comparative religion. In 1949, he was ordained to the priesthood and given the name Father Louis.[1][2][3]

Merton wrote more than 70 books, mostly on spirituality, social justice and a quiet pacifism, as well as scores of essays and reviews, including his best-selling autobiography, The Seven Storey Mountain (1948), which sent scores of World War II veterans, students, and even teenagers flocking to monasteries across the US,[4][5] and was also featured in National Review's list of the 100 best non-fiction books of the century.[6] Merton was a keen proponent of interfaith understanding. He pioneered dialogue with prominent Asian spiritual figures, including the Dalai Lama, the Japanese writer D.T. Suzuki, and the Vietnamese monk Thich Nhat Hanh. Merton has also been the subject of several biographies.

<snip>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Merton

Merton said this about abortion:

It seems a little strange that we [Catholics] are so wildly exercised about the “murder” (and the word is of course correct) of an unborn infant by abortion, or even the prevention of conception which is hardly murder, and yet accept without a qualm the extermination of millions of helpless and innocent adults, some of whom may be Christians and even our friends rather than our enemies. I submit that we ought to fulfill the one without omitting the other.

I disagree, but I recognize the great goodness he brought into the world- not just during his life but through his legacy.

So yeah, I like a lot of what I've seen of this Pope. I don't think it's hypocritical. In fact, I think the rigid mode of thinking that condemns him altogether is a rigid, impoverished point of view.

[hrmjustin]

1. He seems like a good hearted man. I hope and pray he moves the church in a more progressive

direction.

[COLGATE4]

2. T think that this Pope, given some time

will bring about a great many changes in the church. He has already shown himself to be cut from a very different cloth from the European Popes. For one, he has a genuine understanding of and compassion for the poorest among us. He has already shown himself to be above the trappings of royalty which surrounded many previous Pontiffs, and is giving indications that he intends to reign in many of the out of control aspects of the church, such as the Vatican Bank and child abuse by pedophile priests. While he is in fact Pope he still must deal with a highly structured, rigid and impervious to change bureaucracy and that cannot be done by executive fiat. But I believe he is showing himself to be a transformational Pontiff, which will only redound in benefit to all of us.

[Zeke L Brimstone]

3. No lawsuit here! :-)

I like him as well, and am not Catholic.

[xmas74]

4. I like him too.

There is no one person in the world I will agree with 100%. There are plenty of things that I do not like about Francis but after Benedict, he's a breath of fresh air.

I'll give him a bit of time before I really start criticizing.

[Lucinda]

5. Me too.

And I rarely fully agree with anyone, so I happily embrace good where I find it.
He is a remarkable leap forward in what we are used to seeing in a public man of compassion and faith.

[petronius]

6. I agree, I'm impressed with the guy (while disagreeing intensely on several points)

He seems to be living a form of Catholicism that may not be uncommon at the parish and lay levels, but often seems to get mere lip service in the upper levels of the hierarchy...

[LeftishBrit]

7. Me too!

I'm totally unreligious and cannot unreservedly support anyone with a 'pro-life' agenda BUT there is so much else to this Pope! He is anti-poverty; anti-greed; and so much more decent than his predecessor.

Not converting to Catholicism any time soon; but I can respect Francis in a way that I could never respect Benedict.

[Vietnameravet]

8. Why would you begin by saying "Call me a hypocrite. Berate me for it. "?

[cali]

9. because that's what some folks were saying to me in another thread

and that's not the first time.

[Vashta Nerada]

10. So, how's he any different from moderate republicans?

They have the same beliefs.

[cali]

11. how was thomas merton any different? the berrigan brothers?

if you don't know, I can't help you- though I suspect your reply has more to do with me than anything else.

[Vashta Nerada]

12. I don't understand how anyone can like anyone who goes against many things we believe in.

[ScreamingMeemie]

14. You're for corporate excess and the rich getting richer off the backs of the poor

and middle class? That's good to know.

Remember, everything is an all-inclusive word.

[Vashta Nerada]

16. Semantics.

You know damn well that's not what I meant.

[ScreamingMeemie]

18. Then, I suggest an edit.

[cali]

27. no. not merely semantic. at all.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

80. Then you'd better learn how to elucidate what you're thinking. This is General Discussion.

It's not a real forgiving place for those who walk in with rhetorical guns blazing. You may want to spend some time practicing in other forums before you're ready for this one.

[Glassunion]

20. This pope does not go against "everything" we believe in.

What is our stance on poverty? What is our stance on coexisting? What is our stance on income disparity? What is our stance on the banking industry? What is our stance on capitalism in general?

Now answer honestly... What is the pope's stance on those same topics, and how does he compare to his predecessors?

[Vashta Nerada]

21. Do you like anti-gay activists?

[Glassunion]

32. Do you like those who serve the poor?

[Vashta Nerada]

36. Answer the question.

[Glassunion]

47. No, it is a juvenile question.

This pope in particular is waging his war on poverty. To taking care of those who need help, and I can respect that. Do I agree with everything he does? Nope. But I can still respect what he is doing. He is the figurehead for well over 1 billion people on this planet. And he is choosing to take the church to task for poverty, income disparity, etc... I feel that this is an incredible step, and will have a resounding impact long after he is dead and gone.

Just like I respect the legacy of this country's founding fathers, and their fight, victory and establishment of our freedoms as rights as a people. But the sad fact is that one of them probably owned one of my ancestors. I can still respect what they did, in the time in history that they did it.

But I'm not going to shit in everyone's cornflakes because I can't agree with him 100%.

[Vashta Nerada]

48. I wonder what the little boys who get molested by priests while the pope covers it up...

think about the pope's work on poverty?

[Glassunion]

49. This pope did that?

[eqfan592]

109. There are plenty of people who serve the poor and aren't unabashed bigots.

I reserve my admiration for people such as that.

[Glassunion]

146. As is your right. I can respect that.

[demosincebirth]

154. Activist? I think you better define "activist." Francis is not an anti-gay activist.

[Humanist_Activist]

160. What do you call someone who lead a campaign against same sex marriage in Argentina? n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

22. Apparently, we "know damn well" what this poster is talking about...

[Vashta Nerada]

24. Do you like anti-gay activists?

[cali]

31. Do you hate peace activists? Yes, of course you do- following your "thinking"

[Vashta Nerada]

34. Way to deflect.

This isn't about me. It's about you.

By the way, I don't like peace activists who go against who I am as a person--LGBT.

[cali]

38. bwahahahahaha. so you can do it, but I can't give you a slug of your own medicine

methat's cute, hon.

[Vashta Nerada]

41. Just go ahead and keep liking anti-LGBT people.

You know, the type of people who say I'm going to hell because of who I am, who want to take away any rights I may get, who want to take away my happiness.

But hey, he kisses disfigured people.

[cali]

63. juist go ahead and keep hating peace activists, dear

[ChazII]

149. Disfigured people

do have the right to get married in all 50 states. But do they have the right to have children -- hell no. Legally, yes but people strongly discourage or actively urge an abortion should an 'ugly' female get pregnant. We have also been denied jobs and fired for being different.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1206&bih=690&q=plexiform+neurofibroma&oq=plexifor&gs_l=img.1.0.0l10.2143.8996.0.12959.17.15.0.2.2.0.409.1315.10j4-1.11.0....0...1ac.1.31.img..4.13.1323.gjTRi0lP19o

Disfigured people are asked to leave restaurants, swimming pools, malls even amusement parks. While not being told that we are going to hell, we have been informed that we are guilty of some sin in a past life. On the bright side, it isn't the Catholic faith that tells us that.

I doubt you will even clink on the link and I sincerely doubt you have spent anytime with someone who is disfigured. But hey, do you see how many award shows sport red ribbons for AIDS awareness, or the rainbow ribbons/flags one can see on bumper stickers to help show support for your community? Except for being the butt of jokes or more often the evil villain have you seen an extremely positive disfigured character in a movie or weekly television show? Only Beast from the original Beauty and the Beast showed a 'beast' in a positive light. Thank the writers had the common sense to not turn Vincent in to a handsome male.

Vashta,
If I had power and could make a big change in the world I would give you and your group every right you are asking for because it just that - your rights. I would place your group ahead of mine simply because your numbers are larger. Our groups are in the same boat in my eyes. Maybe one day even Ellen or Neil Patrick Harris will even kiss a disfigured LGBT person --- 'cause they do exist.

One question why don't you like disfigured people?

[Vashta Nerada]

153. I don't know where you got I don't like disfigured people.

My statement was about how people are liking the pope only for the fact that he participates in photo-ops. The pope has a hardline stance against LGBT people. Do you know how much it hurts me to see fellow Democrats like the pope, a man that hates people like me?

[ChazII]

156. Speaking as a parent

of a disfigured child, I can understand how much it hurts to have or see fellow Democrats hate people like you.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1206&bih=690&q=plexiform+neurofibroma&oq=plexifor&gs_l=img.1.0.0l10.2143.8996.0.12959.17.15.0.2.2.0.409.1315.10j4-1.11.0....0...1ac.1.31.img..4.13.1323.gjTRi0lP19o

I still don't think you went to the link. But to understand and to see what I look like please take a look. Find the man who is pictured by a steering wheel in a car. Now look three pictures over. See the person's back? That is how my body looks from the neck down.

Just like it hurts people like my group to have not only Republicans, all ethnics groups and even Democrats dismiss my group like we didn't even exist. It is not a photo op. Is it a photo-op when President Obama or any other politician signs a law that helps your group get the rights they so deserve? At least you have Hollywood, many Democrats, strong grass root groups who march, call and get your group noticed.

Finally, for your peace of mine I will stfu because while I see your point you have demonstrated that you do not see a reason to acknowledge the pain of people with neurofibromatosis. I am sad for my friends who are lesbian and also have NF. In fact my heart breaks for them, especially the ones who are Democrats.

[eqfan592]

110. There are plenty of peace advocates that aren't unabashed bigots.

I reserve my admiration for those such people.

[ScreamingMeemie]

53. This is about you. Not me.

Did I post an all-encompassing comment???

[840high]

58. Thank you. I very much

like this Pope.

[theHandpuppet]

88. Yes, let's talk about poverty and income disparity, shall we?

The majority of the world's poor are women and children. Do you realize how many millions upon millions of women are doomed to lives of poverty because they do not have reproductive choice? Further, how many more will die because they do not have access to abortions? Please don't give me a bunch of blather about poverty when His Holiness and his church have done everything in their power to keep women subjugated. Income disparity? Yes, let's start with those women and children. When women are treated as equals in the eyes of the church, you might be surprised how that example could lift many millions of women and children --and families -- out of poverty.
YOU may be able to compartmentalize all of these issues but they are interconnected. Misogyny and homophobia may be the most obvious faces of this type of sickness but until and unless you root out the deep-seated oppression and bigotry within the church (or any other religion sharing those views), it is dishonest to claim that this Pope or any other is doing everything in their power to combat the ills of poverty in this world.

[Glassunion]

92. That was not my point. I was replying to a post

That was later edited, thus changing the context of my post. I see where you are coming from and do agree.

[theHandpuppet]

89. Want to really fight poverty? Start here.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/population/la-fg-population-matters5-20120729-html,0,5897961.htmlstory#axzz2k7J32g4x

And I'll let you guess if I really give a rat's behind whether the Pope drives a Renault.

[Glassunion]

93. The post I was replying to was edited after I replied

Changing the context of what I posted. I agree with what you posted.

[cali]

23. you're getting so silly, it's pointless to respond substantively n/t

[Chan790]

78. I dunno. How do people support 3rd Way, DLC and Blue Dog Democrats...

he's pretty much the mirror image of them.

Where they are socially liberal to slightly-moderate and fiscally conservative, he's extremely fiscally liberal to socialistic and socially/morally-conservative.

If one has a problem with Pope Francis, they'd be hypocritical to not have a problem with the current and past two Democratic Presidents and the presumed 2016 front-runner unless they were ready to say that the only Democratic positions that matter are social issues.

I don't believe the only Democratic positions that matter are social issues.

What's more, the ability of the Democratic party to forge a long-term coalition to maintain control of government and build a majority in the House is eventually going to require Democrats to create bridges with liberal Catholics and other Christians, particularly those in Catholic Worker movements and other faith-driven social justice movements where those people may not be entirely on-board with a polemical social-libertarian platform.

I may hate the 3rd way and "moderate" Democrats and I'm not even remotely on-board with the moral positions of the religious left...but we do need both of them if we want to be Democratic and liberal in more than the very narrowest sense where the moderate tail of the party is predominantly center-right libertarian and they dictate the agenda and platform of the party to the larger base.

(I can't believe I'm making a big tent argument...but I'm making a big tent argument.)

[sabrina 1]

191. Because he called them out on their hypocrisy. He berated them for being 'obsessed with

Gays and Abortion' when they should be concerned with issues such as poverty etc. His statements put Right Wingers who resorted to the Church to conemn, eg, Kerry for his support of abortion rights, in a position of not being able to use that issue anymore.

[spanone]

13. i like him too.

[SidDithers]

15. Yeah. He's a peach...nt

Sid

[cali]

25. so, what do you think of Merton? the Berrigan Brothers?

[eqfan592]

112. You do understand it is possible to like some of the actions a person takes...

...without liking the person as a whole, right?

[Orsino]

17. He seems to be pointing the church in a healthier direction.

There are dangerous, hateful dogma that he's not giving up, but I think he'll leave the church better than he found it. That's significant.

[Humanist_Activist]

19. I generally refrain from calling open bigots good people...

and really, if anyone wants to argue that Pope Francis isn't a homophobe, they obviously are an apologist for such hatred.

The biggest issue is making excuses for him, if someone is being a bigot, take them to task for it, don't apologize for them. They are the ones who should be doing the apologizing.

[cali]

26. Merton? The Berrigan Brothers?

and is it qualitatively worse to be opposed to to marriage equality than to be opposed to reproductive rights for women?

That doesn't seem to bother you at all.

How interesting

[Humanist_Activist]

33. Anti-Women, so just as contemptible...

Sorry for the oversight.

Honestly, I'm strongly pro-choice, to the point that I think there should be no special laws regarding it at all.

I think bodily autonomy is the most basic right of all.

[Vashta Nerada]

30. But he takes good pictures!!

[cali]

35. right. because that's what my op is about

which, of course, you're unable to respond to in a cogent way.

but then, I doubt you even know who Merton or the Berrigan Brothers were.

[Deep13]

82. He's not a homophobe.

It seems pretty clear that he does not hate people for their differences. I reject the logic that assumes that only a bigot would disagree with you.

[Humanist_Activist]

83. This is a man who thinks same sex families are an attack on his God...

that same sex parents are committing a form of child abuse, and that advocates for same sex marriage are doing the work of the Prince of Lies. Would you like to modify your post, or are you going to stick by what you said?

[Deep13]

84. How do you know what he thinks?

And again, I reject your logic. Even if he has some backward thinking--he does believe in the supernatural, after all--I am still entitled to give credit where it is due.

[Humanist_Activist]

85. I know because he said it, in public, while campaigning against civil rights as Archbishop...

in Argentina. What, did you think he only existed since last year or something?

[eqfan592]

96. His own words.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

[demosincebirth]

155. Show me his Quote

[Humanist_Activist]

159. Which one? Here's a sample...

http://www.stpeterslist.com/10390/quotes-from-cardinal-bergoglio-now-pope-francis-on-7-moral-issues/

Check number 5, also, bear in mind, this is a Catholic site.

[treestar]

127. But how do you advance any cause

if you won't reach out to those whom you need to convince? This man believes what he believes, sincerely. He seems approachable on the subject, any subject. The attitude of rejecting them personally creates complete separation. Makes them unreachable.

Bigotry is not going to decrease by labeling moderate people bigots and outright condemning them like this. This is the type of guy who can be reached, unlike his predecessor. Why the desire to alienate someone like that, who could bring a lot of people with him? I don't get it; it's like some people prefer to be the victims of oppression and jump against anyone who might actually cause some movement in their favor.

[DonCoquixote]

28. He is an improvement over the last two

and yes, he seems sincere, but he needs to actively confront the people who used JP@ and Benedict to advance an agenda that frankly, should not have survived the renaissiance. He cannot just beg churchs to be nice to gays, he needs to decree it, he needs to put women as priests. Yes, there will be those who flock to the Anglicans, but it needs to be done to keep to make the church an actual force of good in the world.

[Xolodno]

29. If more religious leaders and their "flock"...

...did what he is doing, they would have a bull run on new converts and membership.

But most religious these days would rather tell you to go to hell....ironic isn't it?

[Ilsa]

37. I like him, too.

I think I can disagree with this man without despising him or thinking he is a hypocrite.

[cali]

39. evidently you can't according to quite a few DUers.

[spanone]

61. i was raised catholic so my opinion matters most! ha!!!! but....

i like this one.

monty python couldn't come up with a better face...

[cali]

40. ah, liberal hate. it's just so much better than any other flavor

[Arugula Latte]

76. Yeah, liberals "hate" just for the fun of it. Nothing to do with the anti-women, anti-gay crap

promulgated by the denizens of the Vatican...No sirree, it's just a hobby around here. Yeah, that's it.

[sir pball]

132. I sometimes wish I had a black-and-white mentality.

It must make life much simpler.

I respect and like a lot of what Francis says and does, and on the other hand find a lot of it odious. On the whole, I find him a more likable Pope than Ratzy, probably JP even. Doesn't give me any cognitive dissonance to appreciate some of his beliefs while also demeaning some of them, it's just...shades of gray.

[randome]

42. Pope Francis is a sign of the times.

Society is changing. Too slowly for most of us but the evidence is there. You can still despise organized religion and recognize that the current Pope is a 21st century Pope.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Bluenorthwest]

43. Hey I'm sure Francis is great!!!!

The Smoke was White so he's infallibly Right!!!!!
He says my family is an attack on God. Minimize that as needed. Dismiss that as you wish. Whatever helps you.

[Vashta Nerada]

44. He says I'm going to hell and I can't live my life the way I want to.

As a bisexual male.

But hey, he kisses disfigured people so he's an awesome guy!

[cali]

45. He says nothing of the kind, but never mind facts.

[Vashta Nerada]

46. Uh huh.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/pope-francis-affirms-churchs-view-on-homosexuality-abortion-but-says-it-must-accept-lgbt-with-respect-compassion-104941/

Pope Francis stated in his most in-depth interview thus far on the Roman Catholic Church, published Thursday, that he affirms the social views of the Church, including on homosexuality and abortion

[bobclark86]

55. You missed the title:

"Pope Francis Affirms Church's Views on Homosexuality, Abortion, but Says It Must Accept LGBT With 'Respect, Compassion'"

A quote from his trip to Brazil:

"If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge him? The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this very well. It says they should not be marginalized because of this (orientation) but that they must be integrated into society."

Nope, he didn't say you are going straight to Hell.

[Vashta Nerada]

62. You completely ignored what I had in the excerpt.

What's the Catholic church's view on homosexuality?

Edit: Read this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-francis-gay-marriage-anti_n_2869221.html

Pope Francis is a conservative who is anti-gay marriage and anti-gay adoption. He has described same-sex marriage as the work of the devil and a “destructive attack on God’s plan.” He has also said that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children.

Now what?

[bobclark86]

64. The church considers it immoral still

BUT -- and it's a big but -- the pope doesn't say you're going straight to hell, and the LGBT community needs to be treated with respect and compassion.

You know, the opposite of this:

"He says I'm going to hell and I can't live my life the way I want to."

[Vashta Nerada]

66. I edited my last post.

Read that link.

[Bluenorthwest]

69. You are factually incorrect. Francis and his mouthpieces have gone on and on about their concept

that gay people should be celibate to avoid hell. It is ok to be gay as long as you don't have any sex, as long as you don't live as you wish. They also of course wildly oppose marriage equality and thus oppose the wishes of millions to live as legally recognized couples.
That is exactly the same as saying you must live as they demand, not as you wish. To claim that 'you should not have sex and must never be allowed to have a family' is compassionate or respectful is laughable arrogance in and of itself.

[bobclark86]

87. They say the same thing about me...

I'm unmarried, so I have to keep it in my pants, according to them. Don't see me trolling around and finding every excuse on every single thread to criticize the leader of a religion with more than 1 billion followers.

[Ms. Toad]

137. This

Francis has asked a synod of bishops from around the world to come to Rome and talk about families. (The official title is Pastoral Challenges to the Family in the Context of Evangelization.) The bishops are also supposed to answer a questionnaire about modern families, the actual ones in their communities. More than that, they have been asked, according to Vatican Radio, “to share it as widely as possible”—with laypeople, too.

. . .

5. On Unions of Persons of the Same Sex

a) Is there a law in your country recognizing civil unions for people of the same-sex and equating it in some way to marriage?

b) What is the attitude of the local and particular Churches towards both the State as the promoter of civil unions between persons of the same sex and the people involved in this type of union?

c) What pastoral attention can be given to people who have chosen to live in these types of union?

d) In the case of unions of persons of the same sex who have adopted children, what can be done pastorally in light of transmitting the faith?

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2013/11/how-strong-is-pope-francis.html

So since I know I am not going to hell, and he is encouraging the church to provide pastoral care - and wrestle with caring for - the real families in the parish, that is a major step in the right direction.

Is it where I think he should be - no. But a year ago having the pope make this kind of edict would have been unthinkable.

(And - if it matters - I am a lesbian mom, married by my faith community for 32 years)

[Bluenorthwest]

51. He has said that gay families are an attack on God.

He says that gay people being parents is a form of child abuse. This sort of rhetoric was the meat and bones of his push for dominance in Argentina, his fight for position was, much like a Republican, filled with hyperbolic attacks on gay people. This is how he got famous.
This is just what it is. I'm not surprised that many straight folks don't mind that stuff. But the facts are the facts.

[Vashta Nerada]

56. I like how cali remains silent on that inconvenient fact.

Huh.

[cali]

65. I did not remain silent on that

[Bluenorthwest]

71. What did you use as your rationalization, I see nothing here. I left that 'WE love the bigot' thread

These threads are clearly intended to make some of us very unwelcome on DU. They are hurtful.

[Vashta Nerada]

72. +1

[Arugula Latte]

77. So, you think it's wrong to dislike a man who says gay families are an abomination?

Just who is the hater here?

[Hippo_Tron]

104. Yea, I'd like to see some indication that he's renounced those views

I'm a big believer that people can and do change and I'd like to think that Francis has and is continuing to change his mind about homosexuality. But in order to convince me, he's going to have to acknowledge some ugly views held in the past both by him and by other leaders of the church.

[eqfan592]

113. You hit the nail on the head.

If he did that, I'd be one of the first ones to applaud him for it.

[Ms. Toad]

139. See post #137. n/t

[Ms. Toad]

138. See post 137. n/t

[treestar]

128. Yet Argentina has gay marriage now

Did he actually say that, or is this a stretch to make him sound as bad as possible?

[cap]

140. Ummm..pope Francis fought gay marriage in Argentina

No one in Argentina wants to talk about the pope because they are hoping he will help them out on negotiations with the British on the Falklands.

Pope Francis and the current leader of Argentina have had a long running battle on social issues.

[treestar]

175. Still no link

and the other poster accused the pope of saying a specific, rather impolitic, thing.

[theHandpuppet]

176. Sure, people are just making that stuff up

Here are some links if you want them -- plenty more where these came from.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/New-Pope-Francis-Dubbed-Gay-Marriage-a-Disruptive-Attack-on-God-s-plan-337142.shtml
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/03/15/the_pope_said_what_francis_worst_hits_on_abortion_gay_marriage_and_gay_adoption.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-francis-gay-marriage-anti_n_2869221.html
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/
http://thoughtcatalog.com/parker-marie-molloy/2013/09/can-we-stop-pretending-pope-francis-is-a-reformer/

[treestar]

180. Why so bitter at being asked to support a claim?

Anyone who asks for a link is accusing you of making it up?

Also still don't see the exact words attributed to him above.

Also, he's shone he's not a hard ass on all of these subjects, and that's the point. Why do people then not want to attempt a dialogue with the likes of him? It's like they'd rather condemn him as evil so as to hopefully remain victims for as long as possible. Nothing changes without a dialogue between people of opposing views.

[theHandpuppet]

196. More links for you

I can provide as many as you might find sufficient.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/14/world/americas/14argentina.html?_r=0
The war of words continued on Tuesday as church leaders staged large protests around the country against the proposed law. On Sunday, Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, the archbishop of Buenos Aires, had declared it a “destructive attack on God’s plan.”

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/pope-francis-describes-gay-marriage-destructive-attack-on-gods-plan/1087934/
Mario Bergoglio, who will lead the world's 1.2 billion Catholics as Pope Francis, described same-sex marriage as the work of the devil and a "destructive attack on God's plan."
He has also said that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children, the Huffington Post reports.
According to the National Catholic Register, in 2010, Francis championed against a bill for same-sex marriage and gay adoption.
Pope Francis went on to describe gay marriage as a "move of the Father of Lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God" and asked for lawmakers to "not act in error", the Post said.

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/14234092-new-pope-francis-is-against-gay-marriages
Argentina passed a bill in 2010 allowing same-sex marriages making it the first country in Latin America to legalize it. In addition, the country's president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner has also promoted free contraception. Both the issue come in conflict with the pope's thinking.
“The Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family," The pope's writing to the four monasteries in Argentina.
"At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”

More:
http://www.fenuxe.com/2013/03/15/what-does-pope-francis-think-about-gay-marriage-lets-ask-him/
http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2013/03/13/new-pope-argentina-cardinal-jorge-bergoglio-selected

[HockeyMom]

50. As a former Catholic,

he is better than Benedict. Enough to make me come back? Absolutely not.

[Deep13]

81. If you don't believe the ecclesiastical teachings, then you don't believe them.

I'm not going to start going back to to (a different) church again just because it is more liberal than most because I still don't believe its core teachings.

[Lobo27]

52. Every thread on DU about him ends the same way unfortunately.

Last edited Sat Nov 9, 2013, 03:34 PM - Edit history (1)

He believes in fairies and unicorns, I don't like him.
He takes good pictures so can I, where is my price.
He hates women and gays...

So how can their be any conversation when many come in all kinds of pissed off, or just as closed minded as some of the religious people are.

At the end of the day we are all human, who think differently and believe in many different things. A melting pot, if you will. We should all strive to makes things better, it may not happen today or tomorrow, but with enough persistence it will.

[daleanime]

134. +1

[Jack Rabbit]

54. Thank you, Cali, for your thoughts

First all, it is not progressive to hate Christians if one is non-Christian or to hate all religions if one is an atheist.

I have problems with some of the things President Obama did in his first term. I voted to re-elect him anyway.

I think the Roman Catholic Church is the last living remnant of that historical monstrosity called the Roman Empire. As a Christian institution, it is what happens when anti-establishment force is co-opted by an establishment force like the Roman Empire. Jesus taught universal love and peace. How is the Spanish Inquisition supposed to fit into that?

I am not a Christian and certainly not a Roman Catholic. Nevertheless, Francis is my Pope.

[OhioChick]

57. I like him, too! n/t

[SchmerzImArsch]

59. I do too.

Although I think in some ways he's doing penance for not doing more when he was a Bishop, I believe, during a rather terrorizing reign of a despot in his country.

But I'm no well versed in that area, I readily admit.

[Hekate]

60. He refused to move into the palace -- and make no mistake, it's a palace.

When he was a cardinal he also refused to live in the ornate residence cardinals were expected to inhabit in his city, but instead lived in a small apartment, cooked his own meals, and traveled by public transportation. He could have had an entire staff waiting on him, including chauffeur.

Even more so in Vatican City -- he could live cocooned in splendor, it's all there, bolstered by hundreds and hundreds of years of tradition. But he would be in a Medieval to Renaissance bubble, and he would give up the independence of his own movements in the world.

So he moved into the Vatican guest house and afaik still lives there among people who are not tasked with waiting on him, nor are they self-appointed to "guide" his thoughts and present issues to him as they want him to see them. Don't know if he still cooks his own meals or simply eats what everyone else is having that day. But he's not living in the palace.

There is a Popemobile, and it has a bullet proof glass dome (ever since the 1981 assassination attempt against John Paul II) so the pope can sit up high and wave at the crowds. Also a chauffeur, and guards. He doesn't seem to want to use that, either. Ha! So he bought a very used car and he drives it himself.

The College of Cardinals elected this man, and they got him -- all of him -- but they sure can't control his movements or his actions. This isn't "just" symbolism. He seems to be shaking things up considerably, not just by this behavior but in other ways. I think his bank reforms are going to result in some people going to jail in the secular world, but right now heads are rolling and desks have been cleaned out.

The Church has become corrupt, and the whole world knows it by now. I sure won't argue that point, and I'm glad now that my parents left the Church for reasons of their own while I was still an infant.

But as to why we should care about what Pope Francis chooses to do with the opportunity he's been presented, know this: There are 1.2 billion Roman Catholics in this world, and the vast majority of them are just trying to live their lives as best they can, like the rest of humanity. Among their numbers are Joe Biden, and the Berrigan brothers, Cesar Chavez, the Kennedys, and countless others who have used their faith to do real good in this world. I won't stand for the broad-brush smear that says every member of the laity and clergy are corrupt and exist to hurt children, women, gays, lesbians. That's as much a lie as claiming the Church is without stain.

I'm not even a Christian anymore, but I do care very much whether the church of my ancestors manages to clean itself up. Given enough time, Francis could make great strides and lay the groundwork for more. Untangling their warped attitudes and teachings and behaviors regarding human sexuality is not the work of a single day or even year, but it's got to start somewhere, and he may well be the man to to begin it.

[madrchsod]

101. the church is the oldest criminal/corrupt organization in history

it is directly or indirectly responsible for more deaths than any country or empire in world history. it will take more popes like Francis to cleanse the church of it`s past.

[Arugula Latte]

147. I was gonna say ... "has BECOME corrupt" ?

Uh, yeah, pretty much from its inception. Historically it has been one of the most harmful institutions ever known to mankind. It has caused untold human suffering and misery for centuries.

[liberalmuse]

67. I don't like religion or popes, but...

This guy seems really cool and I'm happy for my liberal Catholic friends, who have always been there for me, btw. They have been a bit embarrassed by their popes, but I think this is a guy they can get behind.

[Vashta Nerada]

68. Yeah, he's really cool:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-francis-gay-marriage-anti_n_2869221.html

Pope Francis is a conservative who is anti-gay marriage and anti-gay adoption. He has described same-sex marriage as the work of the devil and a “destructive attack on God’s plan.” He has also said that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children.

[intheflow]

165. Your screen name should be Johnny One Note.

You can see no shades of grey, you have no compassion for people with other opinions. Is the Pope perfect? No, he's human, a product of his environment.

Here's a news flash: you are exactly the same, imperfect and a product of your environment. It's sad how sucky your environment must have been for you to be the way you are, as intolerant as the bigots you deplore.

[Vashta Nerada]

167. So what's stopping you from liking republicans then?

They share the same homophobic views as the Pope. Aren't they just "imperfect" as well?

Some say Pat Robertson is a nice guy.

[intheflow]

168. I can differentiate between ideologies and people.

I don't believe anyone is wholly evil (well, maybe Dick Cheney). People engage in evil acts because of webs of interconnectivity. I would venture to guess a lot of vocal homophobes (for instance) had any gender "nonconformism" beat out of them from childhood, whether that was through physical beatings, psychological shunning, public shaming, or other forms of bullying at home and/or at school. People need to identify with communities, and oftentimes, the only communities they feel accepted in are ones that they've conformed to. I can (to steal a phrase from the religious right) love the sinner and hate the sin. I love that Francis is working to reclaim the Catholic tradition of advocating for the poor even as I hate the Catholic tradition that states homosexuality is a sin. I can love my Republican mother while bitterly hating her political views. Why is that so hard for you to wrap your head around?

[Vashta Nerada]

169. Because the Pope's anti-gay stance means he's against me and against

other LGBT DUers.

Why can't you wrap your head around that?

[intheflow]

172. I'm a bisexual DUer.

Who has higher self-esteem than you have, apparently.

[Whisp]

136. Just maybe

this pope is trying to change things too and it's not possible he can undo all that ugly history in a snap of his fingers. The President was expected to do that by many, and it's not possible.

I am very critical of the Church leadership in general, but there may be good people trying to move forward in a better way and it takes a lot of time.

Maybe this guy is a genuine forward mover.

[Rozlee]

70. Hopefully, he'll stay around for many decades to appoint younger, more progressive

cardinals as those conservative old-school dinosaurs die off. Francis is a work in progress for the Church. As many posters have noted, he's not bringing the Church into the 21st century with his antiquated views on women's rights and gay rights. I became an atheist originally because I questioned much of the Church orthodoxy and it would be good if it kept up with science to act as a foil to the evangelical right anti-science fundamentalism. Maybe someday in the future, a young cardinal will rise to be Pope that will do more than pay lip service to modern justice; that will say that not only can women serve as priests, but that so can gay women. That will lift the ban on all reproductive choice, even abortion. That will declare that...oh, hell, I was getting carried away. I almost said that someday, we might even have our first Muslim pope.

[blkmusclmachine]

73. Meh.

[Aerows]

74. He is a tremendous breath of fresh air

over some of the previous ones we have had, Benedict, in particular. Benedict isn't fit to wash and vacuum out Francis's Renault, and Francis doesn't strike me as the sort of man that would ask anyone to serve him.

No he isn't perfect. No, he doesn't advocate for gay marriage, he doesn't stand up for women in the Church or for abortion rights. I have to believe, though, that out of the men we could have gotten as Pope, as a spiritual leader, Pope Francis, though as flawed as can be expected by Church doctrine, is head and shoulders above so many others. I can't change the Church - but here's the thing - HE can, and it appears he is doing all that he can to change the attitudes from the top down.

[David Zephyr]

75. They can sue me, too, Cali

I'm not even a Christian, but anyone who doesn't accept the reality that Pope Francis is light-years more progressive than Ratzinger -- which is a healthy thing for our planet -- can sue me, too. I like him. I like him a lot.

Cali, you are as progressive as anyone at the DU and I've known you for eons, so you don't have to prove your creds to me. I think you know me as well as I've been posting here (albeit less as my eyes are not so good anymore) since 2001.

All that to say this, I am so totally tired of the purity police who are self-righteous and smug and who cannot see that the leader of one of the largest religions on the planet is changing things for a whole lot better for Catholics. Punishing the good for the perfect is not progressive, it's self-destructive.

Thanks for your brave post. And this pagan salutes you.

[dionysus]

86. hey man, how ya been? post more you old coot!

[eqfan592]

99. Oh yes, dripping with progressive fervor.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

[Deep13]

79. Deep13 vs. Cali, A Complaint for Damages in Civil Actions.

The plaintiff has failed to state a claim upon which relief may be granted. Case is dismissed with costs awarded to the defense.

/illegible judicial signature/

Turns out liking something is not a real cause of action, and anyway I have no damages, which is reason alone to prevent a suit from proceeding.

Besides, I have my own Pope Francis man-crush going.

[LeftyMom]

90. You're quoting favorably somebody who calls a sizable percentage of women murderers.

You'll forgive me if I am unamused by god botherers and their misogynist horseshit.

[cali]

106. no. I'm not quoting him favorably.

I'm referring to him favorably despite that quote.

sounds like you have no idea who Merton was.

[Egalitarian Thug]

91. I wouldn't go so far as t say I like him, but he definitely sucks less,

and apparently that is the best that can be hoped for in the 21st century.

[kestrel91316]

94. I agree, and I'm not catholic.

[hooverville29]

95. Agree

[SalmonChantedEvening]

97. He has said some encouraging things.

And for that, I give him credit. Whenever any among us speak love against hate, I embrace it. The source be damned.

Sue? At these prices? Not a chance.

[eqfan592]

100. Yes, i can just feel the love here.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

[SalmonChantedEvening]

102. Thank you for reminding me why I only post here on Sundays.

[eqfan592]

108. Why, does reality experience a temporal shift on Sundays for you? nt

[cali]

107. so glad to see you here salmon. I've missed you.

[eqfan592]

98. cali, i apologize for the harsh way i spoke to you.

It was unkind and counter productive.

That being said, while I like some of the things he's said and done lately, I'm a far cry from saying I like him, and I still can't fathom any progressive liking a man who unapologetically believes the hateful things he believes. It demonstrates far too much willingness to brush aside his unabashed bigotry in my book.

I was wrong to imply his fans are bigots, but your attitude still boggles my mind. I simply don't think he's done nearly enough to earn this level of admiration. An apology for his remarks here would be a fantastic start, however I'm not holding my breath.


http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

[defacto7]

103. I think most people like him

because he's less bad than the others. A lot of people just needed a chance to feel OK with a Pope, any Pope, anyone who could make them feel less ashamed of their religious tradition... and now they have found a few bits to hang onto with this one.

How refreshing to have a Pope that's not quite as bad as all the rest.

I'll just stick with reality.

[pacalo]

105. From everything I've seen, he represents all the values that true Christians should have.

I'm hoping that this beautiful human being -- the leader of the Catholic Church -- will help to hold a mirror up to those so-called "Christians" who are mired in hatred for those who need love & assistance the most.

[eqfan592]

114. So a person who is bigoted towards gays is a "beautiful human being" that represents the...

...values of true Christians. Well ok then, you said it, not I.

[pacalo]

115. Educate yourself...

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/11/05/pope-francis-asks-bishops-how-can-the-church-help-same-sex-couples/

[eqfan592]

117. How about you take your own advice.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

Your article is about him tying to get the church meet the spiritual needs of different groups that were all but ignored in the past. It says nothing of him renouncing his own or the churches views on gays and gay marriage.

[pacalo]

118. The article I provided is more up to date than yours.

[eqfan592]

119. Given that your article is on a different topic. that doesn't matter.

I'm not interested in his or the churches desire to meet the spiritual needs of those it has long shunned, but rather I'm interested in the popes and churchs long held bigoted views being renounced. If you can find a recent article with something like that in it, then I'll quickly and gladly change my tune!

[pacalo]

121. If "November 2013" isn't recent enough for you, there's nothing more to say.

Please proceed...

[eqfan592]

122. I'll repeat, the issue with your article isn't the date but the topic.

Not sure how else to put it.

[pacalo]

124. I realize that your article is exclusively about quotes he made three years ago.

My article, which was published this month, is about the pope's effort to bring his church up to date in regard to same-sex marriages.

I view his questionnaire to the bishops as a sign that he wants their support.

[Ms. Toad]

151. The article quoted

also says, "If someone is gay and seeks the Lord with good will, who am I to judge?” and the underlying document it is discussion, in addition to addressing pastoral care within the parish also suggests the church should not stand in the way of civil recognition of gay marriages.

a) Is there a law in your country recognizing civil unions for people of the same-sex and equating it in some way to marriage?

b) What is the attitude of the local and particular Churches towards both the State as the promoter of civil unions between persons of the same sex and the people involved in this type of union?

(And the context in which the questions are asked makes it clear that his goal is to be supportive to families headed by same gender couples, including considering secular protection for our families.)

[treestar]

129. Nearly all very religious people are bigoted towards gays

it has more to do with their conservative nature - the church changes last. Yet it could change. And people can be good on other subjects, which means they are reachable.

[pacalo]

143. I agree, treestar.

The pope seems to be intelligent & wise enough to know the time has come to re-evaluate the Catholic position. If he has those two qualities -- intelligence & wisdom -- he is indeed reachable.

[Vashta Nerada]

131. Yeah, he's such a beautiful human being:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-francis-gay-marriage-anti_n_2869221.html

Pope Francis is a conservative who is anti-gay marriage and anti-gay adoption. He has described same-sex marriage as the work of the devil and a “destructive attack on God’s plan.” He has also said that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children.

Pat Robertson must be a beautiful man to you as well.

[pacalo]

141. Pat Robertson? Not even close.

[Vashta Nerada]

142. Why not?

They both share the same views on homosexuality.

[pacalo]

145. Have a super Saturday! Until the next thread about the pope...

bye-bye.

[bigtree]

116. he's a hypocrite

. . . a hurtful one.

I like what he's said . . . but, I think his words don't undo his stated views on human rights for LGBT individuals and abortion.

I find him to be typically paternalistic and operating with a sort of passive arrogance and superiority toward his fellow humans. I think most religious leaders operate that way, though.

[ananda]

120. You don't have to hate anyone to dislike some of their views and policies.

I tend to like Pope Frank, but I really deplore his views on women and gays.

[TreasonousBastard]

123. "Hypocrite" is thrown around a lot in this complex workld...

Is it progressive doctrine to utterly reject the Pope because of his positions on abortion, homosexuality, women in the priesthood, etc? If it is, I reject it. but then I've never been fond of doctrines.

It has been explained to me many times that there are some things that automatically disqualify anyone from assuming the label of progressive, liberal, or just commonly decent. Nobody explained just who made up these rules, but there are apparently no exceptions.

So yeah, I like a lot of what I've seen of this Pope. I don't think it's hypocritical. In fact, I think the rigid mode of thinking that condemns him altogether is a rigid, impoverished point of view.

I always wonder how the absolutists on any issue manage to exist in the real world. Like most people, I have my own personal list of absolutes, like the death penalty, but I can't imagine denouncing everyone who disagrees.

edit spelling

[warrprayer]

125. no suit here

Once again you are right.

[sendero]

126. I agree..

... its nice to hear a religious leader saying things that echo what his religion is supposed to be about. Most Christian leaders couldn't sound less like Jesus if they tried.

[tblue]

130. Me too. Thank you.

Nice op.

[last1standing]

133. Yes, it's all about you and how you feel.

Never mind the millions who are still being told they're less than human or the millions who are living without the ability to control their own bodies. Instead we must all be considerate and make sure we don't offend your sensibilities.

Seems reasonable.

[cali]

157. except that's not what he's doing particularly in comparison with

his those who have come before him and most leaders of other religions.

does he support marriage equality? No and he's wrong, but i certainly never thought I'd see a Pope who supports civil unions as he does.

Does he support reproductive rights? No and I sure as hell disagree- and I disagree even more strongly with him on birth control, but those aren't where he has chosen to place emphasis. His emphasis has been on social justice and condemning what he sees as the far greater "sins" of greed and a culture of money grubbing.

On balance, I believe he's doing more good than ill as a world leader.

[valerief]

135. I hate all popes. Roman Catholicism divides and is a tool of the ruling class. nt

[No Vested Interest]

144. If there were a Pope Francis Fan club, I'd be

right there.
His sweet ways have beguiled me.
I like his wearing a red clown nose.
I also like the Dalai Lama, what I read of him is usually kind and common sense.
Not so crazy about Billy Graham, though.

[JoeyT]

148. I still dislike the pope.

I keep seeing people say they disagree with him about his views on women and LGBT people, but those same people predictably have a shit fit when those things are brought up. It's almost like they don't give a damn one way or the other what his positions on those issues are. Given the massive overlap in that group and those that defended the last pope for his right wing stances, I suspect most don't actually give a damn what the pope supports, they just want to silence criticism of him. While continuing to post five OPs a day in GD (Which isn't a protected group) about how awesome he is, of course.

Yes it's progressive (Or at least isn't not progressive. Progressively neutral?) to discount the pope, because women and LGBT people MATTER. And they matter for more than a hammer to bludgeon political opponents with, only to be cast aside when they're inconvenient.

If you supported Wendy Davis and you support the pope, that's hypocrisy. Either a woman's right to choose matters, or it doesn't. Love the Sinner nonsense aside, either LGBT people are real people with real people rights, or they aren't. Being dicks about LGBT people and women are what makes the Southern Baptist church suck, it's part of what makes the Republican party suck, and it's what makes the pope suck. The SBC are real big on talking up Love The Sinner and Care for the Poor too, and they're pretty much the Republican base.

Yes, I'm completely rigid on those issues. Two groups that are traditionally sold out the fastest to get some minor concession? You're damned right I'm rigid on them. Especially when liberals and progressives demand other liberals and progressives stop criticizing someone with a terrible record on those issues. That's a bad road to go down. When it was done for economic issues we ended up with Free Trade and Welfare Deform. I'm not sure what it would get us for social issues, and I don't think I want to find out.

Do I think it makes you less progressive? No. Not even a qualified no, just no it does not. I just think it's a blind spot. We all have them. I'm sure I have lots. Two of the most hardcore defenders of the pope (And Christianity in general) on DU I agree with on literally every single other issue I've ever seen them post on that didn't involve religion. So I certainly don't think it makes me more progressive than thou. I just really wanted to use "thou".

Edited to change overly combative reply title.

[theHandpuppet]

161. Bravo!

Thanks for an excellent post.

[FreeState]

164. +1 n/t

[Arugula Latte]

171. Exactly.

I'm just amazed at all the people here on DU of all places who are going out of their way to slobber all over the pope while simultaneously heaping disdain and attempting to silence those who feel that PR is not enough to cover up the horrific policies he stands for.

[dogknob]

150. Pope-Lite(tm): Zero calories. Zero credibility. n/t

[leftyladyfrommo]

152. I think he's like a breath of fresh air

and he's just shaking the shit out of the Catholic Church. And they needed it bigtime. They have really gone off the rails in the last 30 years.

I'm having fun watching him.

I don't agree with the women's issues but he's a pretty fun guy.

[theHandpuppet]

162. See post #148

That just about says it all.

[Walk away]

158. He's a PINO = Pope in Name Only.

If this poor man has any power or authority in the Catholic church I'll eat my miter.

[totodeinhere]

163. He basically stands for the same doctrine that his predecessors did.

It's just that as a PR ploy he is trying to put a better face on his bigoted views. But I am not falling for it. When he comes out in favor of gay marriage, a woman's right to choose, and a clergy that is open to women among other things then we can talk.

[katmondoo]

166. I like him too

It doesn't bother me that women are not priests. I am a woman and I don't see that it matters much. I go to Church to pray to God not to a woman or a man.

[MineralMan]

170. I will make note of that.

Then I will ignore it as irrelevant.

When this Pope ends the fierce patriarchal, homophobic, and anti woman policies of the RCC, I will have another look, if I live long enough to see that.

[XRubicon]

173. My Attorney has drafted a letter

I will see you in court.

[toby jo]

174. There is this place, Cali

called the heart, and we all share it, we are all one.

Should someone rise above the others, and kill, they lose my respect, because they no longer pay their due to that construct of humanity.

The church, Cali, has killed more people than any other organization since our inception of being organized.

If they had killed one, Cali , they would have lost my respect. But they have killed more than any.

Something is wrong, there, no?

You mention Merton and the Berrigans. Next time you reflect on their acts, reflect also on the unactualized lives of those who have been murdered. How do you weight that? How can you possibly, with any true reflection, give more credence to these few men than all those killed? I question your capacity for love and compassion, which seems less than your need to 'belong', or to give service to the organization called 'the church'. I question every Christian on this point, not just you.

So our new pope is a good guy. Yeah, that he is. He is pulling his thoughts and his church up out of the sewer and into the gutter. Oh boy. What a fine boner for mankind.

[Ms. Toad]

195. So the president has lost your respect?

After all, he ordered the assassination of Osama bin Laden, and drone strikes which have killed many (including children and other innocent civillians)?

Just want to make sure your purity test is applied evenly across the board.

[Trillo]

177. It's reasonable to ask that religion posts remain in the

religion forum. Most anything to do with a religious "hierarchy", or "leader" if you prefer, is primarily about religion. Posts about religion are specifically disallowed in the rules for GD, see Skinner's post pinned to the top of General Discussion.

Allowing posts about religion in GD, while hiding posts "whining about DU" when the subject of that whining is a religious post or posts in the same forum, is hypocritical. Has hypocrisy become what liberal or progressive democrats stand for?

[theHandpuppet]

179. Yes, it IS reasonable

The main fora of DU continue to be overrun with religious postings but unfortunately I don't see that runaway train stopping anytime soon. Are the rules going to be enforced or not?
For instance, if you do a search for "Pope" threads that have been posted to the main DU fora since Jan, it is over 250. I say that because the search will provide you with only the first 250! Look at GD alone in the past week. I would be happy to step forward and delete my own thread if the authors of the others will do the same. I've really just about had it. And if you try to inject an actual political perspective on some of these religious threads, be prepared to be dismissed as ruining someone's feel-good moment.

[Liberal_in_LA]

178. bottom line - women still have to be out of the vatican by dark . gender apartheid

[theHandpuppet]

181. Would we tolerate this from any other state?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Vatican_City

[ucrdem]

182. It isn't really a state.

Or a city either. It's basically a piazza in the middle of Rome, about the size of a smallish urban college, consisting mainly of St Peter's square, the church, and a handful of surrounding apartments. They lock the buildings up at night and everybody goes home, including the pope nowadays. The piazza stays open after dark, or at least it did when I was there, for tourists of all genders to enjoy.

[theHandpuppet]

183. Nice try

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City

So tell me, what did you think of those rules for women?

[ucrdem]

184. The word "rules" occurs nowhere on the page you linked to. Sorry. nt

[theHandpuppet]

185. Here you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Vatican_City

[ucrdem]

186. No rules on that page, either. I think you might be misinformed. nt

[theHandpuppet]

187. I don't know who you think you are fooling.

But having provided the link, I'm sure others here will see exactly to what I'm referring.

[ucrdem]

188. I don't imagine you've been there?

I have and I've seen no evidence of any such rule. So you can put your mind at rest on that one.

[theHandpuppet]

189. Maybe you weren't looking

If you have any facts to contradict the information that's out there, let's have them. My mind doesn't need a rest or a condescending pat on the head. It's working just fine, thanks.

Edited to add: Oh, and by the way, am I to assume that you revisited that link and discovered that there actually ARE rules?

[ucrdem]

190. The link shows that women live in the Vatican,

and that's what I observed. There are several convents on the premises. There are no rules about not living there after dark.

[theHandpuppet]

192. Stop moving the goalposts

You might be fooling some but not me. The link is there for everyone else to read. I have found your responses to be dodgy and disingenuous, so I trust others to make up their own mind. Perhaps you think they are just as stupid as you must assume me to be.

By the way, here's a little casual reading for you to pass the time: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/13/us-women-un-rights-idUSBRE92C1EN20130313

[ucrdem]

194. Suit yourself. One more thing I'd like to add:

visiting the Vatican is a glorious experience that I'd highly recommend to believers and non-believers of all faith traditions. There's lots to do and see, mostly free, but some planning is required to attend ceremonies in the piazza which can fill up early. And yes, apparently there's a dress code, as per the link, though I can't imagine anyone visiting St. Peters would actually need it.

[NaturalHigh]

193. I think he's a great man.

My wife's family is Catholic, and they all love him.