*EDITED*If you are showering unqualified praise and admiration onto an openly bigoted person....

[eqfan592]

...then that leads me to believe you're a bigot yourself. If you don't like that, then perhaps you should pick your subjects of admiration more carefully.

Never would I have believed that an unabashed bigot would receive so much praise and admiration on DU. But I was clearly being naive.


EDIT: This is about the pope.

Edit 2: While my view hasn't changed on this pope, nor on the inappropriate nature of the praise currently being heaped on him, I could have voiced my opinion in a more constructive manner. My apologies. I let my frustration get the best of me.

[Whisp]

1. is this about that football/sports guy?

Yeh, I find it revolting that anyone could defend him because defending him is condoning his words, which are his and part of him.

[blkmusclmachine]

2. Is this about the Pope?!?!

[eqfan592]

3. Updated for clarification. nt

[Enrique]

4. this is just namecalling

whoever it's about.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

5. Oh, I thought it was another Ezra Pound thread.

[rug]

10. How dare you mention the poetry of a fascist.

And the days are not full enough
And the nights are not full enough
And life slips by like a field mouse
Not shaking the grass

[freshwest]

80. I like that little piece of poetry, regardless, and am stealing it.

Although I like this one, too:



What Is Life?

What is life?
It is the flash of a firefly in the night.
It is the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime.
It is the little shadow which runs across
the grass and loses itself in the sunset.

~ Attributed to Crowfoot (ca 1830-1890), chief of the Canadian Blackfoot tribe.

[rug]

83. Watch out, somebody will call you out for admiring a fascist collaborator.

And that's a beautiful poem. From the snippets I've seen of Native American speeches, prose and prayers, they all have raw, authentic simple truths.

[eqfan592]

86. Nothing wrong with admiring him.

But there is something wrong with calling anybody that points out that he was a fascist collaborator "hateful" and lashing out on them for doing so.

[rug]

89. I didn't call you hateful. I said your criticism was simple-minded.

[eqfan592]

91. So thinking the pope needs to continue to be called out on his bigotry is simple minded. Got it. nt

[rug]

93. Kindly use my actual words if you want to state my position.

Otherwise, it's dishonest.

[freshwest]

87. They always make sense to me. I don't understand those who want them to fit in their narrow views.

Native wisdom is full of universal truths.

[Xipe Totec]

6. Do you own a mirror?

Do you have any idea how you come across?

[eqfan592]

12. Oh please do enlighten me. nt

[roguevalley]

53. for some of us that includes family. i am glad i am old enough to get nuance and

Not live in stark either or land

That would include my brother and uncles, open. Nice

[eqfan592]

55. I don't live in an either/or land.

We are talking about a real, unabashed bigot here, and lots of "I love this guy!" type comments here. Sorry, but no person that can say the sorts of things he had said will get that level of admiration from me without making some substantive changes.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

[rug]

7. This is so simple-minded a paradigm, I'm not so sure you understand what actual bigotry is.

[eqfan592]

9. I'm not sure you understand what the term "unqualified" means. nt

[BlueCheese]

8. What about President Obama before he finished "evolving" on same sex marriage?

[eqfan592]

11. Again, i said "unqualified."

Few people here failed to call the president out on his position prior to him coming to his senses.

EDIT: Also, I don't think the president ever said anything nearly as damning about gays add the pope has.

[BlueCheese]

14. I don't see people praising Pope Francis unconditionally.

Almost all of them state they disagree with his views on certain important issues.

[eqfan592]

15. I've seen a ton of it.

Some saying things like "I love this pope" and so forth. He's a more likeable person than the previous pope, but he's yet to enact any substantive change in policy to warrant this outpouring of admiration.

[BlueCheese]

19. That doesn't mean they don't disagree with certain of his positions.

Plenty of people said they loved President Obama, without following it by saying, "except for where he thinks God is against same sex marriage".

[eqfan592]

20. Again, i don't think the two situations are directly comparable, for reasons stated earlier. nt

[TheDebbieDee]

33. Yeah! I like the Pope. What's it to you?

The longest of journeys is taken but one step at a time (Or some shit like that!) That this Pope isn't out of step enough to call for the instant banishment of gay people, illegitimate children and the like is a step in the right direction.

Is this as good as the Pope calling for instant acceptance of all gay people? Of course not, but I think he's taking a step in the right direction......(He was non-committal about gay people, wasn't he?)

[eqfan592]

39. Non committal?????? Hardly.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

[MicaelS]

13. That attitude is an example of the Left's worst enemy is itself.

We're always ready to form a circular firing squad in the name of ideological purity.

[eqfan592]

18. Sorry, but what bull.

This man stands in direct opposition to some of progressives most core values! Just because he's likeable doesn't mean we need to treat him as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Especially not when he sits at the head of a massive conservative organization. Name me one other conservative leader that gets this kind of free pass on gay and women's rights.

[Niceguy1]

76. he is moving in the right

Direction, and thatbwe should support.


Lifebisnt all or nothing.

[eqfan592]

78. I'm sorry, but "don't talk so much about our bigoted position" doesn't count as moving...

...in the right direction. At least not in my book.

[gulliver]

114. The OP is really not among the Left

Just fringe whatever and noise. We are always going to have some form of extremism hanging around, unwelcome but determined. Almost none on the left would agree with the OP. Ergo it is not left.

[Tikki]

16. I certainly agree…

I thought my reasons were personal, but bigotry is way more than personal...


Tikki
ps I know it's about the pope.

[SidDithers]

17. But he drives a Renault!!...

Well said.

Sid

[hrmjustin]

21. I think people are hopeful with the new pope.

[eqfan592]

27. I understand that. However, he has a bad track record.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

He now says Catholics shouldn't concentrate so much on gays and abortion, which is a far cry from changing the churches position on the topics.

He's more likeable, and maybe more compassionate than the previous pope/ but he's still an unabashed bigot in charge of an unabashedly bigoted organization.

[hrmjustin]

82. From what I have seen here people like him but make clear that they want him to change things.

The may not say it every post but that is what I sense from people here.

[eqfan592]

88. my real anger stems from the fact that those of us that dared to question...

...the running narrative that this pope is awesome by highlighting his bigotry are being thrown under the bus and labeled as "hateful" and "bigoted" ourselves, and that people seem so willing to just forget about these important issues in regards to this particular person.

[hrmjustin]

92. I do not think anyone who points out where the RCC or any other church or religion is wrong is

hateful or a bigot. I do think that the thread about the pope hugging an ill man had some horrible responses.

Pointing out the church is wrong on certain issues is not hateful.

mocking a persons faith is. I am by no means pointing at you with this. There are people here who do mock people's faith and do things that are unnecessary and mean spirited.

[xmas74]

22. Are you calling me out?

We had a discussion about this a couple of days' ago and I do feel like I'm one of the people you are referring to.

In other words, I'm a bigot in your eyes. Thanks for the clarification. I'm sure that a number of other long time members needed to be reminded that you view us all as bigots.

[eqfan592]

23. That you feel this is directed at you says more about you than me.

But no, this was not directed at any single individual.

[xmas74]

25. It says that you know nothing about the posters here

I can't tell you what to think about me but I can tell you that I do feel that this is personally directed towards me, as did another poster who sent me the link to this thread.

[eqfan592]

30. Then that's your problem.

To be frank, I don't even remember you. I've conversed with a great number of folks on this subject to recall any specific conversations. In fact, it's the number of people praising a conservative bigot that prompted this post.

[TheDebbieDee]

35. Some people like to stir shit up to get attention......

And no, I'm not talking about the OP of this thread.

[xmas74]

41. I know some do

but it was another poster who also went through the same with the OP, asking which one of us did I think it was about.

Our back and forth was in a the middle of a long thread and I just got tired of replying to the OP. Now I do feel a bit like it's a call out to any number of posters on that thread, myself included.

[kelly1mm]

24. I thought you were talking about President Obama pre 2012 before I got to

the edit. Would people pre 2012 that showered unqualified praise and admiration on the President lead you to believe they to were bigots?

[eqfan592]

34. The president never said anything in the same ballpark as the pope.

The President: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/76109.html

The pope: http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

And still people regularly took the president to task for supporting civil unions but not gay marriage.

[kelly1mm]

40. Simple question: Is supporting civil unions only and not marriage equality a

bigoted position or not?

Are you suggesting that there are different levels of being a bigot? Like being a little bit pregnant?

[eqfan592]

46. Yes, it is.

Never said it wasn't. But do I see a difference between "civil union" and "destructive pretension against the plan of God?" Yes, if only as a matter of severity, in that one is more likely to eventually see reason than the other.

[kelly1mm]

50. OK, fair enough. If I understand your argument you believe that pre2012 President Obama was a bigot

and the people who heaped unqualified praise on him for 4+ years were also likely bigots as you point out in your OP. Is this correct based on your argument above?

[eqfan592]

54. Unqualified praise, yes.

I voted for him, even knocked on doors for him, but I never stopped reminding him (through email and social media) that he was dead wrong on this issue (and some others). But few here ever failed to mention his wrongheadedness on this, and those that dismissed it were regularly hounded.

[kelly1mm]

64. That is true, many here did point out his position as being bigoted. However, there were MANY

threads that praised him up and down while failing to acknowledge his shortcomings. Certainly not EVERY thread said something to the effect of 'except for the fact that he is a bigot, President Obama is the bees knees!"

Basically, what I am asking is do you expect that every post or OP praising any public figure point out any inconsistancies with progressive politics (shoot - we can't even agree on what THAT is lol!)

[eqfan592]

70. No, that would be difficult to say the least.

But I would like to think that in the case of a hardcore conservative bigot such as this that we wouldn't so easily toss aside the issue of equality because the man kissed a sick person and was nice to a child.

In the case of the pope, people have accused those of us that dared to remind them of the pope's position on gays and women as being "hateful" of the pope and of Catholics, and that we should just shut up and let them enjoy the new pope. THAT is what has made this situation so different from any other I've seen on DU.

[kelly1mm]

74. OK. And THANK YOU for fully explaining your position! I understand your point much better

now and understand (although do not totally agree) with the OP! Have a GREAT night!

[eqfan592]

75. You're welcome. :)

[eomer]

111. Like me you probably didn't call candidate Obama a bigot when you knocked doors (I assume in 2008).

You probably delivered some form of unqualified praise. That's what I did. One guy replied to me that I was a fanatic and that seeing me at his door confirmed his belief that Obama was a Communist or something like that. In that one case out of many hundreds of doors, I told him that, no, actually, I wasn't that big a fan of Obama but that he was the better alternative. Now I wonder whether maybe I was wrong, whether it would have been better to have a Republican in name that Democrats would be fighting against rather than the stealth Republican that Obama turned out to be (the opposite of that loony guy who thought he was a Communist).

My point is just that people's actual opinions can be more complex and nuanced than you know from a brief interaction with them. You're likely getting a simplified view as most posts on DU make a narrow point and don't purport to say every thing that person thinks about the more general topic.

[newcriminal]

26. 3 to 3

At Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:38 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

If you are showering unqualified praise and admiration onto an openly bigoted person....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024004676

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Just so tired of seeing the same thing from this person.
This thread is actually calling out several members of DU personally without saying their names. It's gone too far with this poster.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:46 PM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I see no problem with this. Let it stand.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: I'm an atheist, but I'm tired of the anti-pope hate. This is the best pope of my lifetime. Calling people bigots because they like the guy is BS.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Calling out people without naming names happens all the time, especially in this manner. As for the premise of the post itself, I personally think it's stupid but it's really nothing more than an opinion. Trash thread option or ignore poster option are your friends.


Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: I agree this poster is way over the top.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[xmas74]

29. I've had three people send me a link to this thread

saying that they thought I was one of the people it was directed towards because of a previous conversation.

I'm tired of the same old crap. I have things to do IRL-maybe it's time to take another break from DU.

[newcriminal]

31. I'm juror number 6.

You're preaching to the choir.

[xmas74]

36. I'm tired of the same old whining on here

about how if someone doesn't agree then blah, blah, whine, blah, snark, whine.

It gets old.

[eqfan592]

38. Yeah, screw gay rights and women's rights!!! He kissed a sick person and that's good enough, right?

[xmas74]

44. Screw women's rights

as said to a single mother.

You don't know a single thing about me.

[eqfan592]

47. Given the number of women I've seen vote republican...

...very little surprises me. All I know is your position on an unabashed bigot, and that you thought this thread applied to you.

[xmas74]

49. So now that makes me anti-woman.

there are a number of things I'd love to say but I know when something is improper.

[eqfan592]

51. You keep applying all these labels to yourself, not i. nt

[TheDebbieDee]

117. I'm not naming names but someone in this thread is a shit-stirrer!

And I CAN'T say that that someone is the OP......because that would be against the rules.

Long live Pope Francis! You Rock!

And I'm not even Catholic!

[Vashta Nerada]

63. Oh?

Now I'm a whiner since I absolutely hate his views on homosexuality? He has the same views on homosexuality as the most ultra-conservative politicians in this country.

Whining.

Pfft.

[xmas74]

69. Instead of following me around

shouldn't you be wondering about John Hurt's role in the big special on the 23rd?

I need to go rewatch the clips right now.

[Vashta Nerada]

72. I have a feeling John Hurt is either

an incarnation of the Doctor between the 8th and 9th Doctors.

OR

Maybe he's the Valeyard.

I'm looking forward to finding out!

[xmas74]

85. I thought Valeyard at first

but I suspect that's too easy-at least for diehards.

I suspect he's between the 8th and 9th and that his role is directly involved in the Time Wars. At least I hope we finally get a bit more of the Time War-we deserve it!

If the Valeyard returns I'd rather see him in what I anticipate to be an excellent reign by Capaldi. I see great things from him-less fangirl swooning, more of everything I want in The Doctor.

BTW-did you see this?

http://uk.tv.yahoo.com/doctor-peter-capaldi-might-just-star-13-episodes-004000533.html

One year contract with a possible renewal. I worry that he might go the route of Eccleston.

[Vashta Nerada]

97. Oh I hope Capaldi lasts longer than 13 episodes.

I really like Matt Smith as The Doctor, but I'm kind of tired of the quirky, over-the-top Doctor that we had with Tennant and Smith. I want someone like the 5th who's more introverted and reserved with a darker tone. If there is a Valeyard, I'd like it to be Capaldi. But he'll have to stick around for more than 13 episodes for that to work.

I agree with your assessment of John Hurt's character. I think he's an incarnation of the Doctor we haven't seen before. If that's the case, Smith is the 13th. I guess we'll have to wait to find out! Waiting sucks!

Thanks for the link by the way!

[xmas74]

100. You're welcome.

Have you seen the videos yet?

http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/the-day-of-the-doctor-leaked-previews-54880.htm

Capaldi can pull of a Valeyard storyline, as could Eccleston. Tennant and Smith, not so much. You need someone who can go dark for the role.

[Vashta Nerada]

103. I have not.

I've been too busy with thesis work. I have time to watch them tonight!

Thanks again!

[xmas74]

105. np nt

[Vashta Nerada]

108. Despite our different views on the Pope, I'm glad we can still get along.

Thank you for your kindness to me after I was acting like a jerk.

[xmas74]

110. Thank you for going along with it.

I try to find something that I can relate with for nearly everyone, whether on here or out on the street. I even find something to relate to with hard right and the RR. (Football and racing works wonders, as does canning and freezing/dehydrating food and good recipes to take to potlucks.) I've noticed that once I find a way to relate we always get on, even when on opposite sides of the fence.

I knew we could talk the moment I saw your name. I grew up watching old episodes of Doctor Who late at night on a PBS station back in the late seventies/early eighties. The babysitter would turn on Doctor Who or Son of Svengoolie and I would hide behind the couch, peeking at the tv.

FWiW-I'm a Tom Baker girl, bread and buttered.

[Taitertots]

28. Results from the Jury....

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Just so tired of seeing the same thing from this person.
This thread is actually calling out several members of DU personally without saying their names. It's gone too far with this poster.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Nov 8, 2013, 08:46 PM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I see no problem with this. Let it stand.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: I'm an atheist, but I'm tired of the anti-pope hate. This is the best pope of my lifetime. Calling people bigots because they like the guy is BS.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Calling out people without naming names happens all the time, especially in this manner. As for the premise of the post itself, I personally think it's stupid but it's really nothing more than an opinion. Trash thread option or ignore poster option are your friends.


Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: I agree this poster is way over the top.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

32. Good...you can think I'm a bigot, you can think whatever your little mind needs you to think

...but by comparison with that Nazi fuck the new Pope replaced, I like this guy a lot, irrespective of the views of some DUer with a godddamned 'baggerflag. Have a nice weekend.

[eqfan592]

37. You like him, in spite of him failing to make a single substantive change to church policy...

...on these issues. Ok then.

Also, try reading the flag before commenting.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

42. Yes, I do like him. Was that not clear to you the first time around?

And yeah, I read your flag. Now we've both wasted time restating the obvious. I've seen posters browbeating others here for many years now. I'm completely immune to the pissants and I think what I think no matter how far it makes your jaw drop in feigned moral outrage.

[eqfan592]

48. If you want to say you like this guy...

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

...then that's your prerogative.

[Arugula Latte]

43. Agree. It has been sickening.

[William769]

45. Catholic Bishops Oppose Discrimination, Oppose ENDA Too

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops opposes “unjust discrimination,” but it also opposes the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, according to a letter the group sent to the U.S. Senate.

The conference, which speaks for the Roman Catholic Church on public policy matters, sent the letter last week, saying ENDA “rejects the biological basis of gender,” “threatens religious liberty,” affirms and supports sex outside marriage, and could be used to support same-sex marriage rights — many of the typical complaints about LGBT-inclusive antidiscrimination laws.

The conference also objects to ENDA’s lack of a “bona fide occupational qualification” exemption, which it says is necessary “for those cases where it is neither unjust nor inappropriate to consider an applicant’s sexual inclination.”

The letter was signed by Bishop Stephen Blaire of Stockton, Calif., Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone of San Francisco, and Archbishop William Lori of Baltimore, all of whom chair conference committees or subcommittees. It can be viewed on the conference’s website.

http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2013/11/06/catholic-bishops-oppose-discrimination-oppose-enda-too

Somebody is lying. Or is it he just doesn't have control over his subordinates. Damn sure can't have it bot ways. I'll go with #1 and #2.

[Chan790]

68. It's observationally the second.

This conversation actually dovetails quite nicely with one I was having earlier with a friend from college who is now a college professor of public policy in Indiana. We both went to school at Catholic University of America here in DC and are activists for social justice.

The topic of the conversation was a petition on Faithful America, a group that represents the viewpoints of liberal Christians and Catholics (I'm agnostic but I'm on their mailing list because I was involved with their efforts to bar pro-death-penalty politicians from CUA's campus and a signatory of their letter of support of CUA faculty's rebuke of John Boehner 2 (I think) years ago when he was the commencement speaker for his positions in opposition to social justice and human dignity), about the fact that the US Council of Catholic Bishops is likely to elect Joseph Kurtz, a vocally-outspoken critic of this Pope opposed to his social justice agenda, as its President next week. The petition is to urge them to elect a USCCB President more in line with the positions and leadership of Pope Francis.

The people most heavily pushing Kurtz' candidacy are the conservative wing of the USCCB leadership, including Archbishop Lori. The very crux of the problem is that the conservative leadership of the US Catholic church is very much at opposition with both the push for liberalization from Rome and from their own laity, resisting calls for change and actively looking for ways to push back. They're not the only ones, Pope Francis has also gotten a great deal of push-back within the Vatican for his actions to consolidate power and eliminate an entrenched old-guard conservative faction in the church leadership.

The petition, if anybody is interested, is here: http://act.faithfulamerica.org/sign/francis_usccb/?source=fa_campaignpage_img

Tl;dr: The US church leadership is much more conservative than Rome and not at all keen on the direction this Pope is taking Catholicism.

[Earth_First]

52. This is about the PETA supporters?

[Scootaloo]

56. So, what's your opinion of Salvador Dali's artwork?

You know he was an open admirer of Franco, right?

[eqfan592]

58. I know little about him truth be told.

What's your opinion of the man who said these things?

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

[Scootaloo]

116. I think people can be decent and be assholes at different times of the day

Best pope in a long time, but... well, he's still the Pope

[LadyHawkAZ]

57. Meh. Looked at objectively, it's an excellent study in how media-driven

and how easily PR-influenced a lot of our supposed free-thinking left is.

I'll be perfectly happy to like the guy IF policies start changing. Just being a nice guy doesn't cut it- JPII was by all accounts a nice guy, but look at the sheer volume of shit that occurred under his aegis.

[eqfan592]

62. If he were to enact substantive change, I'd be the first to applaud.

And I think you make a fair point about the PR.

[Deep13]

66. Enact? He's pretty much the king of Catholicism.

He has already directed the Church to stop obsessing over social issues and to concentrate on ending poverty and violence. So, done. Now it is a matter of enforcing it, which is problematic since he has no temporal authority outside of Vatican City.

[eqfan592]

77. Are you kidding?

So if the republicans say they will stop concentrating on their anti gay standpoint, then all is good? How about actually changing the standpoint???? Man, how quickly some are willing to forgo the fight for equality in order to praise a conservative bigot. Smh...

[Contrary1]

59. Why should I care that some online poster who doesn't even know me

has led himself to believe I am a bigot?

[Deep13]

60. I don't like it because it is false.

You know, the POTUS was not in favor of gay marriage when he was first elected. Are all the people who voted for him homophobes?

People evolve and when they show signs of doing so, it ought to be encouraged rather than condemned for not being fast enough. As Pope he must comply with the rules of his institution, but he is doing so in a manner that is as accepting and as tolerant of others as is possible while still calling himself a Catholic. Frankly, I think you are bashing him and, since it is for the norms of his church, all Catholics. Some call that bigotry.

What I find most admirable about Dr. King and the other leaders of the Civil Rights movement is that they never lost sight of the fact that their enemies were also human beings with far more in common with them than there were differences. Louis Stokes was on Rachel last night or the night before explaining that. Always try to find common ground with your opponent to encourage her or him to recognize your common humanity.

[eqfan592]

65. The issue about the president has been gone over already in this thread.

Please scroll up to see the discussion. Yes, people's positions and opinions do evolve, but so far I have seen nothing to show that the pope has come all that far from this:

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

I never said the pope wasn't human, but that doesn't mean I'm set to sing the man's praises.

[Deep13]

67. I'm not reading this whole thing. My response is to you directly.

Do what you want. I'm done here.

[eqfan592]

71. So i should rehash an entire conversation already held because you can't be bothered to scroll?

I guess not, since you're done.

[Vashta Nerada]

61. THANK. YOU.

If a politician had views like this:

Pope Francis is a conservative who is anti-gay marriage and anti-gay adoption. He has described same-sex marriage as the work of the devil and a “destructive attack on God’s plan.” He has also said that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children.

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-francis-gay-marriage-anti_n_2869221.html

and anyone here supported that politician, they would be booted. But since he's the leader of a hypocritical religious organization, for some reason he gets a free pass.

SMH.

[Glassunion]

73. Well than could you at least provide a list

Of acceptable persons and entities both past and present, in which we can praise, thereby helping us in our purity tests, that validates our party affiliation? That way we can cleanse out the undesirables, making us a more pure and focused party.

[Niceguy1]

79. they want the votes

From the unlure but don't want to hear what they have to say.

[eqfan592]

84. Once again, unqualified is the key word here.

And I'm sorry, but I don't think anybody who's said the sorts of things this pope has is deserving of the sorts of praise being shot his way.

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/

[Glassunion]

96. So no one on the planet is worthy of praise?

I haven't really seen a single post of unqualified praise. Someone saying "Hey the Pope did X, that's awesome! He's a cool guy" is not unqualified praise. If I really, really think about it there is not a single living or dead person worthy of unqualified praise. Look the guy is a dickhead when it comes to gay and women's rights. But I try not to let my hate blind me to what is good.

Think about it for just one minute. Has this new pope done absolutely nothing good at all in the past 8 months he has been in office?

[Bluenorthwest]

118. The admins provided SOP for General Discussion that says no threads about religion

I think if people kept their praise of clerical homophobic sexists in the proper forums that would suffice.
Praising of a man who hates a minority group can rightly be seen as an attack on that group in and of itself. If folks her are devout Pope following anti gay types, that's their choice, but the SOP of GD says they are not welcome to do that in GD.
The fact that the 'religious' are the ones who break the community rules in order to insult a wider number of people is definitive of the value of their 'faith' and the teachings of their clerics.

[hrmjustin]

121. That is not true. There are posts all the time in GD from atheist talking about religion.

I was a GD host and saw it all the time in the alerts. It is not only the religious. The hosts will not lock a thread unless you alert on it.

I agree this belongs in religion but it untrue to say"The fact that the 'religious' are the ones who break the community rules in order to insult a wider number of people is definitive of the value of their 'faith' and the teachings of their clerics."

The Op of this post is not a believer in the pope. There have been several pope threads and I do not know they are believers.

[Nye Bevan]

81. Bear in mind that until May 2012 Barack Obama was on the record as opposing gay marriage.

"Marriage is between a man and a woman.... God is in the mix" he said.

And quite a few of us praised and admired him nonetheless. (I for one, however, was merciless towards what I saw as either his bigotry or his political cowardice).

[Bluenorthwest]

119. I criticized him for that the entire time. Obama never said any of the horrors Francis

has engaged in, Obama never said gay couples were an 'attack on God' not that adoption by gay parents is 'discrimination against the child' as Francis has. The President of Argentina called Francis' attacks on gay people 'Medieval and suggestive of the Inquistion'.
Francis in Argentina was Roberston and Santorum in one. He is an old man with a long and brutal history befor his ascension to the highest perch of his company.
I would much appriciate it if people informed themselves and did not claim that Obama's words were anything like those of Francis because that is false and very unfair to Barack Obama. Very.

[liberal_at_heart]

90. trashing thread.

[Hippo_Tron]

94. Eqfan, I think there's maybe a better way to go about this discussion...

We throw around the term bigot a lot as though there's one group of people "the bigots" who have deep seeded hatred for someone (blacks, gays, women, etc.) and the non-bigots who don't. It's true that there's certainly a group of blatantly hateful bigoted people, one only needs to go over to somewhere like Freerepublic to find them. There's also the vast majority of the rest of us who fundamentally believe that all human beings are created equal, but being human beings we still sometimes will act in a bigoted manner often without even realizing it.

So if statements like "I love the new pope" offend you, then I would politely go about explaining to the person making that statement why it offends you and ask them to re-consider their unqualified admiration for the pope. Speak up about how you feel, just don't assume the worst in people when doing it.

[eqfan592]

95. *sigh* you're right.

I let my frustration get the best of me here.

[Hippo_Tron]

101. It happens to all of us, I've posted some things out of frustration that I regret

And again, I think this is a good discussion to be having. I think there are a lot of liberals who desperately want to believe that right wing Christians will suddenly start looking more towards the golden rule and less toward Leviticus when deciding how they feel about homosexuality. But hints of that by the Pope don't change the fact that the Catholic Church is still a deeply homophobic and sexist institution that has hurt a lot of people.

[eqfan592]

106. I think you summed up my feelings on the subject far better than i have so far with this post.

And I agree on the importance of this discussion.

[Skip Intro]

98. I hope most here are sincere enough to refuse to alter

their views, or expression thereof, simply because somebody might dislike it and call them names.

[Bjorn Against]

99. When this Pope was first selected I thought as you did about him

As I have seen him in action however I am starting to think he may be a much better person than I originally believed. I am well aware of his past bigotry, but since being chosen as Pope he seems to be moving in a better direction and he is starting to make me hopeful that he may be preparing move the church in a new direction away from their bigotry of the past. He said horrible things about gays before being selected as Pope, but since he became Pope he has sent some strong signals that he may not be as anti-gay as he initially appeared. I can forgive him of his past if he stands up for gay rights in the future and I am actually starting to think there is a chance he might do that.

I am still skeptical of him, but I am more willing to give him a chance now than I was when he was first selected. I do not like the institution of the Catholic Church at all, I think it has been overrun with bigots for centuries and I thought that there was little chance of the new Pope significantly changing an institution that is so rotten at its core. Early on however this Pope is sending signals that he wants to lead the church in a very different direction and a much better direction. I am not ready to praise him yet as he has not yet brought the change needed, but I will give him a chance.

[idwiyo]

102. k&r

[idwiyo]

104. K&R

[Warpy]

107. He has made a few good gestures

but without a fundamental change in Rome's thinking about women and by extension gays, it's just window dressing.

I predicted the last pope's reign would be acrimonious and short.

I predicted this one would be a more popular pope who would repair the image of the hierarchy but would be prevented from instituting the type of change the organization needs by all the entrenched arch conservative bureaucrats.

[cynatnite]

109. Define unqualified please....

I haven't seen him being openly bigoted, but I haven't been closely following him either.

It seems to me that he's trying to bring the church out of the 19th century. While I think that is a good thing as a whole, the proof will be how things progress in the next year.

I think I'd be more convinced of his sincerity if he would address the issues surrounding the child abuse by priests who were protected by the church.

[JoeyT]

112. K&R

Criticizing a bigot for their bigotry totally makes you a bigot, after all. It's Fox News logic.

It's pathetic this OP got alerted on, and even more pathetic that it missed a hide by one vote: The alerter and all three hide votes ought to be ashamed of themselves, trying to hide an OP that calls out a religious figure on more of the same old "Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin" horseshit.

Edited to add: And you've got the same people screaming about this OP that had a fit when anyone criticized the last pope. The one that didn't even bother with the Love the Sinner lie, and just went with Hate the Sin and the Sinner and Anyone That Happens to be Nearby for Good Measure. It's almost like they'd pretend he was perfect no matter what the guy did. If y'all keep making anti-pope OPs, they're going to make trees an endangered species.

[cali]

113. No one here is doing that. Do you understand what "unqualified praise" is?

there has been qualified praise. quite a different thing.

So you hate Daniel and Phillip Berrigan, right?

And you hate Thomas Merton, right? (if you even know who he is)

[Bluenorthwest]

120. Criticism of a man whose rhetoric states that I am an attack on God is not hate

it is self defense. I pity a twisted ignorant soul like that of Francis, but I will not allow his infection to spread to others, nor for his hateful teachings to be glossed over. He teaches hate toward gay people. Calling that out is simply a person's only option. When a powerful person seeks to malign one's family it is one's only path to defend that family from the malicious and powerful figure.
I understand that for some of you, seeing gay people defend our families is in itself bothersome, some feel we are here to be attacked by men like Francis and Pat Robertson and that we will never defend our selves and our own and it upsets them to see that they can't simply promote a bigot without any contenst any more. They don't think we have the right to say a word as the thugs berate and call us a product of 'the evil one'.
And here you are accusing people of hating Tom Merton. Because they don't like being called demonic influences. I hope you are proud of that.

[alphafemale]

115. He's just more "likable." More like Pope JP2 than that most recent terror.

I'm not Catholic so he really has No Real Sway on my life whatsoever.

He is just another indicator that the arc of history does curve toward justice.

He did shut down a swag bishop and turn his house into a soup kitchen.

That was pretty damn funny.

Will one pope be able to root out millennium of corruption to the core?

There was a JP1 that vowed to try and do that.

And he was reported in the press, as saying that God "is our Father; even more He is our Mother,

After he said that-Do you remember how long he lived?