General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOK. How about "safe, legal and SECONDARY TO BIRTH CONTROL?"
I realise some here don't like the idea of the opposition being given control over language, but I think if the phrase in the title of this thread is what we actually believe, that's what we should say.
Unless I'm wrong to think abortion should be secondary to birth control...? (really can't see that...)
REP
(21,691 posts)Why does it need to be more than that? It's what I support.
As for birth control: free, on demand, including sterilizations.
With you 100%. Let's keep it simple.
TBH I don't even know where "safe, legal and rare" comes from. If it were up to me the phrase would be "abortion is a personal matter between the physician and the woman, and doesn't really involve anybody else at all with the *possible* exception of the father."
But... since we're talking about it, I do think effective birth control is going to be nicer for women than abortion and it's a shame if that can't be said in some way. And I can't think of a way of including that observation in any kind of snappy phrase that couldn't be potentially reinterpreted in nasty ways...
Maybe snappy phrases around these kinds of complex situations are just inherently bad...
on point
(2,506 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)There are tons of medical procedures that would be less necessary if people made different choices before they were in a position to need that medical procedure, and in none but abortion does anyone make a comment about how they wish it were rare.
Dental fillings: Safe, legal, but secondary to regular tooth brushing.
Heart surgery: Safe, legal, but secondary to not smoking and eating well.
People don't talk about things they're OK with happening in those terms. The "rare" bit is only thrown in for abortion.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)I have no idea why it even exists.
Ava Gadro
(36 posts)Or Safe, legal, and keep your nose out of my vagina.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Safe, legal and private just like every other medical procedure anyone has for anything.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)CTyankee
(63,903 posts)WE have privacy laws around health care now so I'm not sure what benefit there is to adding the word "private."
I know you mean "and none of your damn business" and I agree heartily with that sentiment. And, in conversations with people we could certainly add that phrase with gusto!
CTyankee
(63,903 posts)I think the whole reason "rare" was added was to make the point that the speaker didn't consider it a form of birth control (which it ultimately is, really). By saying "rare," the speaker is then able to add that contraception is preferred. Not because abortion is necessarily bad, but because contraception is easier, less expensive and does not entail surgery, which is invasive.
If you take "rare" out you don't render that value judgment. I think the time has come for us to stop playing this game by the other side's rules.
quaker bill
(8,224 posts)The number of pregnancies prevented by birth control cannot be known precisely, as it is tough to count things that did not happen. However any rational estimate would indicate that the number of pregnancies prevented is 100s of times larger than the number of abortions.
I would go with "safe, legal, and private".
I would hope for it to eventually become uncommon because a high level of support, acceptance, and economic opportunity for single mothers was a given that any woman could count on without question. (we are obviously nowhere near that place).
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Over half of the women who have abortions were using birth control. Look, it's entirely possible to focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies without the judgment that abortions are 'evil' or 'bad'. This judgement is harmful to people who have abortions and clinicians who perform them.
Change the narrative. Anything else still stigmatizes women's health care choices.
Abortion is a moral & positive choice that liberates women, saves lives, & protects families.
http://www.ansirh.org/_documents/library/weitz_jwh10-2010.pdf
The opening paragraph:
Abortion is the most contested social issue of our time. 1 Recent events, including the assassination of Dr. George Tiller, an abortion provider in Kansas, and the fight over health care reform, demonstrate the intense polarization of the ongoing debate over abortion. 2 This article examines how the desire to find an end to the abortion wars led to the widespread adoption of the rhetorical mantra that abortion should be safe, legal, and rare. By tracing the history and consequences of this paradoxical position, this paper provides insight into the intractability of the abortion conflict in the United States. The paper begins with a review of the transition from libratory to consolatory language regarding the role of abortion in society. I then argue that womens health and well-being are harmed when desires to resolve the social conflict over abortion are prioritized over womens need for abortion. Additionally, the adoption of the mantra that abortion should be rare increases the stigma associated with abortion. I demonstrate how focusing on making abortion rare reduces access to care and sets up unrealistic goals related to the number of abortions that should occur in the United States.
For those who dont have time to read it, the main points are:
- By saying that you want abortion to be rare, youre passing a negative judgement on the people who perform abortions and the women who have them. This judgement is harmful to people who have abortions and clinicians who perform them.
- Saying that you want abortion to be rare implies that there is something wrong with abortion, that abortion is somehow different from other parts of health care.
- Wanting abortion to be rare suggests that training clinicians to provide abortions is unnecessary. In reality, we need more abortion providers to increase access to safe abortion care.
- The rare framework legitimizes the need for abortion restrictions, and these anti-abortion laws have the most dire consequences for people with the least resources.
- The rare framing sets up the unrealistic expectation that theres a magic number of abortions that are acceptable, and once we reach that number, abortion will cease to be a divisive issue in American culture.
As Dr. Weitz puts it, saying that we want abortion to be rare does not achieve the underlying goal of reducing the social conflict over abortion and has real consequences for womens health and well-being, including reducing access to care, increasing stigma, justifying restrictions, and establishing unattainable goals.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)Great post.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)If one thinks abortion should be rare because it traumatizes women, it's an invasive procedure, women regret it, we need to control how women practice any form of birth control, it's a right wing argument. That is how right wingers feel about it.
It goes beyond just rephrasing, imho. It's a discussion about the culture and why some feel the need to judge in this way, even if they say they are pro-choice. Because the judgment isn't being made just for themselves (which is ok imho) but extends to other women as well. I do believe that these persons wouldn't advocate for any law that limits the choice, however they are stigmatizing it and are lending their voice to the opposition who would advocate for less access. If one is pro choice, all their opinions regarding trauma, procedures, they have a right to feel that way for themselves. Not for other women. That is what choice is. I think it's gettiing lost in the discussion.
One's morality needs to be left out of the discussion regarding choice, unless you are speaking for yourself, imho. It's an interesting discussion and one I am happy to have even if people accuse me of being the word police or forcing my opinion others. That is just derailment.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)LeftyMom said it perfectly in a thread the other day.
LeftyMom
19. That's the political genius and moral cowardice of the phrase.
To pro-choice people it means "unplanned pregnancies shouldn't be common, for women's sake." To the mushy middle it means "abortions for deserving women but not for those trampy other women." To anti-choicers it means "let's whittle away at legalized abortion even if we can't get a ban past the Supremes yet."
It's a political Rorschach ink blot. It means what you want it to mean.
And, to be honest, I am disgusted at the number of DUers who are "the mushy middle" (while denying that they are). The 'soft' support of choice has helped to create the horrific mess that we face today with massive restrictions.
CTyankee
(63,903 posts)I think it is important to emphasize that women are capable of "moral choice." I like to strike a blow against paternalism of all kinds.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Women and their doctors can be trusted to make decisions.
CTyankee
(63,903 posts)I'm sorry, but I don't think you've responded to me.
"it's entirely possible to focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies without the judgment that abortions are 'evil' or 'bad'"
I don't understand what you think I was saying?
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)The implication in your OP is that women you are having abortions are irresponsible and are not using birth control. The fact is that 54% are. Framing it the way you did still implies judgment.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)I'm sick of the game playing with women's bodies and rights as human beings. We have as much right to strike 'rare' from our language as any other group who is fighting for their rights. It's negative, period. This war on women needs to stop...our time has come. This whole argument is about tradition and religious beliefs being imposed on 1/2 of society due to accident of birth. Stop it!!!!
Wonderful post!!!
prairierose
(2,145 posts)the other aspect of the "rare" language is that it also implies that women are not able to make the decision themselves. That they need some kind of patriarchal help to decide. It really is part of the patriarchal denigration of women that is common in our language.
It started as a appeasement of the forced birthers to deflect the discussion back into the sane lane but in the end, it is really comes back around to judging and controlling women.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)Abortion is self-defense.
As we all learned thru the Zimmerman trial, self-defense is not a question of what coulda and shoulda been done.
Abortion is about a woman's recognition and response to threat.
Yes, surgical abortion would be an expensive form of birth control, but birth control is a red herring.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)It is nobody's business if and when a woman uses contraceptives, when and for what reasons she obtains a legal abortion, or whether or not she chooses to have children. For those so concerned with personal privacy and argue for limiting intrusions on personal liberties, it is not consisten to argue tha the language around the most fundamental right of a woman to her body. Why should you seek to limit that right?
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)A lot of people have mixed feelings about it and don't see it as a black and white issue. Until everyone is willing to admit that and discuss it rationally, abortion will always be a polarizing issue.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)and fully integrated into women's reproductive healthcare, it will remain a polarizing issue.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)People will still discuss the moral side of the issue. Denying any moral aspect won't change the conversation; in fact, it will help fuel the conversation, as it does now.
As I wrote, even some pro-choicers think abortion is morally wrong. Legalities won't change that, and neither will condemning people who hold those opinions.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)The interesting thing I'm seeing is how the 'soft support' of choice helps fuel restrictions. The massive continued attacks on abortion since 1989 need to stop and part of that means changing the narrative. The stigma is harmful to the cause and those who are pro-choice and concerned about helping are open to discussing things they can do to help.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)A lot of people with mixed opinions, even people in the pro-choice camp, are never going to fight and die for that particular hill.
ismnotwasm
(41,976 posts)Except the woman involved. It's really not. Who she chooses to include in her decision making is up to her.
It really is disgusting that these conversations continue.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)This has hurt the pro-choice movement for a long time, in my opinion. People who are forbidden to even have an opinion or discuss the issue are told that they need to fully support and fight for abortion.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)And if you do, you should keep it to your damn self and out of public policy.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)BTW...blanket statements like these are a big part of why the pro-choice movement has alienated so many people. I'll leave it to you now.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)see ya.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Without that attitude.
CTyankee
(63,903 posts)their own. That acknowledges those women who have mixed feelings and those who are solidly pro or anti. The point is that as moral agents women can make these choices in their lives and the government stays out of it.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)should be available for free to every man on demand.
Go for it!
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)but it was a good investment.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)and determining that is the proper role of government.
Whether an abortion is rare has to do with how people live their lives, and that's a matter for individuals, their families and society. Not the government's role.
ismnotwasm
(41,976 posts)Would do me fine.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)What it is not is contraception.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)On January 28, 2014, Canada will celebrate 26 years of reproductive freedom. Since their Supreme Court struck down Canada's abortion law in 1988, the country's experience is proof that laws against abortion are unnecessary. A full generation of Canadians has lived without a law and we are better off because of it.
Canada is the first country in the world to prove that abortion care can be ethically and effectively managed as part of standard healthcare practice, without being controlled by any civil or criminal law. Their success is a role model to the world.
After 26 years with no legal restrictions on abortion whatsoever:
- Doctors and women handle abortion care responsibly.
- Abortion rates are fairly low and have steadily declined since 1997.
- Almost all abortions occur early in pregnancy.
- Maternal deaths and complications from abortion are very low.
- Abortion care is fully funded and integrated into the healthcare system (improving accessibility and safety).
- Further legal precedents have advanced women's equality by affirming an
unrestricted right to abortion.
- Public support for abortion rights has increased.
Responsible abortion care: Since 1988, the Canadian Medical Association (CMA) has successfully managed abortion just as it does for every other medical procedure -- by applying policy and encouraging medical discretion for doctors, subject to a standard code of ethics.
Doctors abide by CMA policy and guidelines, and follow best medical practices based on validated research and clinical protocols. Criminal laws are inappropriate and harmful in medicine because they constrain care and negatively impact the health of patients.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)This shouldn't even be a damn discussion, it is a private matter between a woman & her doctor & is of no concern to you, me, or anyone else as to why she is getting it, if it is her first, if she has had one before, or the circumstances surrounding conception.
Birth control should be free to any female of child bearing age who feels they are in need of contraception. But as far as abortion goes the topic should have no room for discussion for the reasons I have stated above.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)because he or she wants improved access to birth control, which would make abortions rarer?
Wouldn't we all approve of something like that?
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)relationship
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Lawmakers can institute policies that make abortions rarer without interfering in any way in anyone's doctor-patient relationships.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)of birth control. Francis says all of it is wrong. The RCC has clear anti birth control teachings. So how does adding mention of another form of that which they see as 'sin' do anything for the folks who oppose condoms and pills?
Like all health care it should be legal, safe, covered under health care plans and also private. It is not your concern what other methods were used, nor if any were used. And to repeat, the opponents of choice are opponents of choice, they oppose any form of birth control because what they favor is that the choices all lay with church and State, not with the individual.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)YOU do what works for you. Period.
renie408
(9,854 posts)This isn't even between a woman and her doctor. It is between a woman and herself. The end.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Grammar note: the punctuation is outside of the quotes because it is not part of the quote.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I read about how difficult it is to decide and go through with abortion, women should be spared that where possible. We need birth control to be really available to all. Rush and his minions notwithstanding. That's what they really fear. That they'll lose this wedge issue.
Drew Richards
(1,558 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)you DO know that less clinics for abortions also means less birth control counseling, right? So support MORE women's services and options, and trust us to use them wisely.
Brigid
(17,621 posts)No.matter what I say, it's going to anger someone. But here goes: I don't care if somebody I don't even know has an abortion. It is none of my business. But I do believe there is a moral component to it that is absent in other medical procedures. In an ideal world, there would be none, for there would be no unplanned pregnancies, no rape or incest, and no situations where abortion is necessary for medical reasons. But we all know we don't live in that kind of world. That is why there will always be a need for abortion services. But I am tired of feeling like I'm being pushed around by both sides. Apparently I'm not "pure" enough for either one. I am not going to "die on that hill" for either side, as NaturalHigh put it. I am the one who gets to decide what my views are, and what is important to me. Don't like it? Too bad.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)I am not trying to be snotty, I am asking honestly. I am being serious. You're an admitted 'soft supporter'. As such, are you in favor of restrictions? If so, I understand why you'd continue to use language that supports these restrictions.
If you are not in favor of the restrictions and/or care about trying to stop them, then you would try to not do things that create additional roadblocks and stigma associated with abortions.
That's the whole point of asking that Democrats, liberals, DU, politicians, etc follow the party lead and stop using language that actively harms reproductive freedom.
It's not a purity test. We're not the word police. We just want women to have full access to a legal medical procedure.