What do you know about WWII. Really?

[trof]

Last edited Tue Nov 12, 2013, 09:01 AM - Edit history (1)

I'm watching "The Longest Day" on AMC.
I've seen the film a dozen times or more.
I like the trivia and goofs pages on IMDB.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056197/?ref_=nv_sr_4

I was born a few months before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
I was 4 when the war finally ended.
I have some vague memories about rationing and newspaper headlines and maps of troop movements.

I learned a lot more about it in school.
And in movies about it.

I went to a discussion forum about the movie on IMDB.

"Why did we invade France? I thought they were on our side."
"Vichy France turned the country over to the Germans."
"What was Vichy France?"
"The French were surrender monkeys."

Excuse me but, as an old timer, the 'younger generation' seem to me to be woefully ignorant about the causes of that war.

[Scootaloo]

1. It's not "the younger generation"

History is just one of those subjects that probably most people completely dismiss as irrelevant - doesn't help that schools teach it as a repetitive litany of dates and names.

You take a large amount of historical ignorance, and THEN you take it to the comments section of a place on hte internet, and what on earth do you expect to get?

[Blue_Tires]

2. If you think the IMDB forums are full of ignorance

don't EVER read through a full list of youtube comments for a war movie (or anything historical, for that matter)

[Posteritatis]

3. Leaving aside how boring "kids these days sure are clueless" threads can get...

... woeful ignorance is hardly the exclusive province of people my age, or even younger.

That probably actually goes moreso for major events like the Second World War, which are usually viewed (or even taught) through at-times ridiculously narrow, single-viewpoint perspectives.

[loli phabay]

23. it also depends where you learned about it, amazing how mamy americans believe 12/07/41

Was the day the war started not knowing that the real kick off i would say was sept 39, unless you are finnish or czech.

[sarisataka]

25. Ethiopians...

and Chinese would say the war started even earlier

[loli phabay]

26. yup Abyssinia and manchuria, it all depends where one learned about it

[davidpdx]

39. The Koreans might even say earlier than that

They got screwed in 1910 when Japan "annexed" them.

[GP6971]

78. Screwed

is to say the least

[whistler162]

4. All you need to know is........

it is Obama's fault!

[Bandit]

55. WHAT!!!! I thought it was Clinton's Penis that caused it all.

[dionysus]

5. my tenant doesnt know if ww2 or nam came first, or if we were against the germans or russians. sad,

but true.

[Iggo]

6. Because that's where the Germans were!!!

Why did we invade France. Come on.

[hatrack]

7. "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!"

Truer than we knew at the time . . . .

[cynatnite]

8. Piece of advice...

Don't go to a MOVIE forum and expect an intelligent discussion about WWII in a historical perspective. Those comments likely came from fans of Lohan and Ashton Kutcher.

[Demo_Chris]

9. I am not exactly the younger generation...

But I know a bit about it. More, it seems at times, than the old timers who theoretically know so much.

[WinkyDink]

10. A lot, actually. My father won his Bronze and Silver Stars in the Battle of the Bulge. My uncles

were in the Navy in the Pacific Theatre.

[Oakenshield]

11. Is that right?

Well I find you "old timers" are woefully ignorant in general. Especially since most of you vote for conservatives. Pardon me if I don't take your words seriously.

As someone who was quite fascinated with the Great War, I will say that world war 2 would probably have never even occurred in the first place if France, Britain, and America had been more interested in seeing justice done rather than divvying up the spoils of their conquests. What a surprise that the people of Germany resented being humiliated and forced into poverty.

[WinkyDink]

12. "Especially since most of you vote for conservatives." Well, that zinger will die quickly HERE!

[WinkyDink]

13. Now, see, "The Final Solution" wasn't about the economy. And the US entered WWII after 12/07/41, not

because of what theretofore Germany had done.

And BTW: "As someone who was quite fascinated with the Great War, I will say that world war 2 would probably have never even occurred in the first place if France, Britain, and America had been more interested in seeing justice done rather than divvying up the spoils of their conquests. What a surprise that the people of Germany resented being humiliated and forced into poverty."

Do you know what this paragraph is? IRRELEVANT. YOU ARE ARGUING A POINT NO-ONE INTRODUCED.

[1000words]

14. Yup ... The main cause of that war was the harsh terms of surrender dictated to Germany, after WWI.

Last edited Tue Nov 12, 2013, 02:19 AM - Edit history (2)

Wilson tried to warn everybody, but the world was hell-bent on punishing Germany. In particular, crippling their economy. Meanwhile, a former army corporal from Austria took it very personally ...

[Oakenshield]

19. The terms of surrender created the political climate for someone like Hitler to rise to power.

To me, that's the piece of history that should be studied most...that is if we really care about avoiding past mistakes.

[hfojvt]

33. it was not the world so much as it was the "Tiger"

who wanted to punish Germany. Mssr. Clemanceau.

But there was some precedent for that. When the Germans defeated the French in the Franco-Prussian war of 1870, Bismarck imposed a large reparation on France as part of the terms, thinking it would take them forever to pay it back. But the fired up French paid it back in just a few years.

So it was not unreasonable to make Germany pay for some of the devastation the "Great War" had caused to France. The trouble was that the blockades of the war had decimated the German economy, so it was in no shape to pay reparations after its defeat. Plus the terms prevented Germany from rebuilding the industrial area of the Saarland - which again reduced their ability to pay reparations.

France took Alsace and Lorraine, from Germany and made it part of France. That was one of the things the war was ostensibly fought over. They sorta did not want Germany to re-industrialize though and thus become a threat. That's logical enough.

As an alternate history, I think Rhenish separatism might have provided an answer. Instead of taking Alsace and Lorraine as part of France, they could become part of a new Rhenish nation including Alsace, Lorraine, North Rhine-Westphalia, Rhineland-Palatinate, Saarland, and Baden-Wurttemberg. An independent nation like that would have made Germany less of a threat to the balance of European power.

But that's all water under the damn.

[1000words]

34. Good post

You are a learned historian.

[hfojvt]

50. you are too kind

I have a smattering of knowledge, particularly about Germany. For my foreign language requirement I used my four years of high school german plus two college courses in German history. Germany from 1648 to 1870 and Austrian history from 1918 to 1945. Plus I read the entire 800 page book used for a one year course in European history that my roommate took for one semester.

I forgot, until I googled it, that Rhenish separatism was tried in the 1920s, but defeated by the Weimar government.

Those history courses, which I took to get a BA instead of a BS in math, which would have required 3 more math courses (which I usually aced) were my favorite courses in my five years of college, even though I only managed a B in both of them.

[whistler162]

70. Though the treaty of Versailles was

less harsh than the treaty of Brest-Litovsk.

[Sognefjord]

15. And the Germans also lost some of the land that had been theirs for centuries.

Strange that Mexico isn't more ticked off at us for how their country was carved up!

[Oakenshield]

18. What a ignorant comparison.

I suppose we blamed Mexico for causing any territorial conflicts, as well as forcing them to pay steep reparations? Kindly get a clue.

[Sognefjord]

20. I was trying to agree with you, old chap.

Think it through.

[Oakenshield]

30. My apoligies.

I apologize for my rudeness.

[Sognefjord]

36. No offense taken

We're on the same side.

[enlightenment]

28. Why not tone it down a notch?

It is possible to have a discussion without turning it into a cage match. You do yourself no favors being belligerent, nor do you sound particularly intelligent. And it is " 'an' ignorant comparison", by the way.

[Oakenshield]

29. I beg your pardon kind sir.

I should have known correcting a person's grammar, and criticizing the way their written post sounds is much more appropriate behavior.

[enlightenment]

47. I do hope you enjoy your stay on DU.

[NealK]

35. Maybe you should help the "old timers" be better informed?

For example you could point them to a site like this one for a start:

http://www.rzm.com/main/main.cfm

Welcome to DU.

[annabanana]

38. giggle

Yeah, all us aging hippies are noTORious conservatives....

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. However, fascism arose first in Italy - which had been on the winning side of WW1

It's simplistic to blame the rise of Hitler purely on 'humiliation' and reparations (which were not 'spoils of conquest', but largely the cost of pensions for a military that had suffered millions of casualties).

The Treaty of Versailles also required Germany to pay reparations. The Allies had told the Germans that they would be liable for war damages, and the precedent for assessing reparations had been set by the Germans themselves in the Treaty of Frankfurt in 1871 when they had imposed an indemnity of 5 billion francs on France (twice the cost of the war, and a sum that the French paid) and the more recent punitive Treaty of Brest Litovsk of March 1918, which they had imposed on Russia. Article 231 of the treaty justified the collection of reparations by placing blame for the war on Germany and its allies. British election politics, meanwhile, drove up the amount of reparations by adding pensions and widows' benefits to the total. The amount was to be set later. Following a series of conferences in 1920, reparations were finally set at $33 billion.
...
No other modern treaty has evoked as much controversy as Versailles. Rarely in the 1920s or 1930s did it fail to enter into discussions of European security. The treaty, while harsh, certainly did not seriously affect German power, as Adolf Hitler's regime demonstrated. Debate over whether it was too hard on Germany abounds. Certainly it handicapped the leaders of the new democratic Weimar Republic. It was they, rather than the kaiser or the leaders of the German Army, who were forced to sign the treaty and bear its shame in the eyes of the German people.

The important point to remember about the Versailles Treaty is that it was never enforced, so it matters little whether it was too harsh or too lenient. The U.S. Senate never approved it (or the Anglo-American Treaty of Guarantee for which France had bartered away the Rhineland), and Britain soon retreated into isolation, leaving France alone to enforce its provisions. The German government announced in 1923 that it was ending reparations, and the French government, then headed by Raymond Poincaré, sent troops into the Ruhr. Although this action brought a sharp change in policy on the part of Berlin, it also incurred the wrath of London and Washington. Never again did a French government attempt to go it alone against Germany. Ultimately the Germans paid only about $9 billion in reparations, and in the 1930s as Hitler steadily whittled away the other treaty provisions, Britain, France, and the United States made no move against Germany.

http://www.historyandtheheadlines.abc-clio.com/ContentPages/ContentPage.aspx?entryId=1296005&currentSection=1294164&productid=19

The Germans were themselves quite happy to humiliate their foes; their plans, had they won the war, included control of Belgian ports (a country which had been entirely neutral until the moment Germany invaded it) and hegemony over eastern Europe, including the Ukraine, since the Russian Empire had disintegrated. And remember the carnage and destruction of the Western front took place in Belgium and France, not in Germany.

[Chathamization]

62. Look up "mutilated victory" - many in Italy were very unhappy with how things turned out n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

64. Sure - they wanted bigger gains from the war

They weren't made to pay reparations, though. And they joined the war, when they thought they could benefit from it.

[Starry Messenger]

44. How does that explain the rise of fascism in all the other countries, like Austria, Britain, Italy,

Even the US had a thriving fascist movement until our entry into the war.
http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/53/seldes.html

The theory that Germany had been stabbed in the back by traitorous elements at home during WW1 was fomented by the ultra-right military leaders. http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/stab_in_the_back_legend.htm

Hitler's rise to power had many contributing elements, including support from people like William Randolph Hearst. http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/53/hearst.html

[trof]

66. I wasn't gonna rise to the bait. I really wasn't. But I just gotta.

I'm a 72 year old liberal Democrat.
Us 'old timers' know more about life and consequences than you will probably ever be able to comprehend.

Pardon you?
Fuck no, I don't pardon you.
I don't give a shit whether you take my words seriously or not.
When you start a post with "I find you "old timers" are woefully ignorant in general", you lost me and most here right there.

I'm guessing you're around 15, 16?

[Gravitycollapse]

69. Someone who tries to shame all young people because of a few comments on IMDB...

Probably isn't in a position to pardon anyone.

When you start a post with "I find you "old timers" are woefully ignorant in general", you lost me and most here right there.

Do you realize the utterly undeniable irony in that? That you started an ageist OP and continue to trash talk young people because you stupidly assumed a few idiotic comments on IMDB somehow represents young people in general?

That would be like me saying all old people are idiots because you made this stupid OP.

[trof]

71. Oh dear. I offended you?

It's probably the Alzheimers.
Please excuse...
What were we talking about?
I mean the last thing you said.

[Gravitycollapse]

73. If you're trying to play the victim now, I am completely indifferent.

Don't want to have ageist accusations waged against you? Don't make ageist accusations against anyone else.

The stupidity of your OP has nothing to do with your age. It has to do with your woefully incorrect slight against young people.

[dougolat]

81. Now, now, let's not let the taint of ageism ruin the valid point

about woeful ignorance of the most general facts of history (or most anything-"Jaywalking" comes to mind)
It's not limited to any one group, even the most educated and well-read have some area where they are a doofus; but the sketchiness of much current schooling contributes to the phenomenon, does it not?
And misinformed voters are dangerous, right?

[Oakenshield]

80. Anything else to add Gramps?

Maybe an explanation of why most seniors vote Republican despite their supposed wisdom? This country isn't in a shithole because of those darn foolish kids. It's in a shithole because people from your generation, people who were around when this country was at its most prosperous, let future generations down when they sat idly by as right wing grifters looted this country.

I'm twenty two, and my parents had better prospects when they were my age. The same can be said of millions of other young people across the country. That's a god damn bitter pill to swallow.

[hlthe2b]

16. I knew quite a bit about the European and North African campaigns...

but not so much about the Pacific front--that is until I had occasion to work out in the Central Pacific for a while and encountered so many WWII vets returning to visit the sites of the horrendous battles they'd survived--in Guam, the Marshall Islands, Saipan, and elsewhere... It was so poignant to see the emotional response from these Vets and I was determined to learn as much as I could...

It is so sad to me that so many are so very ignorant of WWII--as well as much of history. What a slap in the face to those who served in this (and all wars).

[tblue37]

17. My father was at Pearl Harbor when it was bombed.

He was a 19-year-old airman at the time.

[Gravitycollapse]

21. So because you run into a few idiots on the internet...

You felt the need to call out everyone in younger generations? What ageist garbage.

[Recursion]

22. At the start of WWI, British soldiers were heard cheering that they would finally

be able to go "sock it to the damned Belgians!"

[loli phabay]

24. lots, but i am a bit of a buff, love war movies set in that era

Also read a lot of books particularly about the waffen ss and the eastern campaign.

[Deep13]

27. More than that. Wow. nt

[Skittles]

31. my grandfather was at Dunkirk

he was one of the last ones to leave.....the only thing he ever said about it was, "I could dive under a jeep faster than anyone."

[JDPriestly]

32. Yes. We are unlearning what we learned from that war.

[MADem]

37. There are kids running around who think Germany and Japan were our allies in WW2.

I guess all that German beer and anime has confused them, or something. Not sure who they thought we were fighting--perhaps the evil "Nazis" of "Naziland?" I guess we killed 'em all!

Too much "teaching to the test" in school, and not enough teaching for actual knowledge of a topic, sadly.

[davidpdx]

40. I'm a Gen X'er so all I learned was based on reading

My mom wasn't even born until after WWII. That being said there are particular parts of the war that I have more knowledge about then the overall war itself.

[laundry_queen]

53. Same here.

Both my parents were born well after the war was over. Gen X'er here too.

I was a bit obsessed as a child though, to learn about WWII,. I don't remember why, I just remember being very anxious to learn more about it. I've done tons of reading about it, and in our history unit in high school regarding the World Wars, I got 100% mark for the term. But yeah, there are a lot of parts I am not very familiar with (especially the pacific part). I know a bit more about the German run up to the war than the rest.

[davidpdx]

65. Well I should amend what I said slightly

My grandfather was involved in WWII so I was able to talk to him about it. Specifically his involvement in the war and the mission he was involved in. I felt lucky to be able to that when I could hear first hand accounts. Since he passed away I have one of his two flight wings.

[B Calm]

42. "Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans

bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!"

Capt. Wild Bill Kelso 1941

[CBGLuthier]

45. I do believe you are misattributing that quote

It was Senator Blutarsky who said those immortal words.

[B Calm]

46. LOL

[Prophet 451]

43. The French as "surrender monkeys" is actually really recent

It pretty much only became widespread when the French refused to go along with DimSon's obsession with invading Iraq. The media, who really wanted a war (great for ratings), parroted it so long and loud that it pretty much got ingrained in the public psyche. Object example in just how quickly public opinion can be dictated.

Prior to that, you'd have been more likely to hear admiration for the Free French resistance or gratitude for the French pretty much winning independence for the US (by the end of the revolutionary war, they were providing half the gunpowder, a quarter of the troops and all the money; when the British surrendered, there were more French than American troops there).

[Brother Buzz]

58. It's cheese-eating surrender monkeys

and Groundskeeper Willie uttered those words in 1995, eight years before the Iraq war. Although not spoken as succinctly and crudely as Groundskeeper Willie, the sentiment was well established in British culture since the fall of France in 1940.

[loli phabay]

79. correct that and how the italians are crap soldiers were commonplace in the uk from the forties

Onward, hell even the germans held their italian allies in disdain.

[Le Taz Hot]

48. Well, I read

"The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" twice. Finished once, turned it over and started it all over again. Doesn't make me an expert but I'm not completely ignorant on the subject.

[LibertyLover]

49. I have a Master's in military history

and I'm still learning the history of World War II, not to mention World War I.

[el_bryanto]

51. At least it's better than WW1

Which nobody really gets. Most people probably know that that Nazis were badguys at least.

Bryant

[snooper2]

52. I love when OP don't reply to any of the responses

It's all the fault of jesus

[Orrex]

54. From K through 12, my school spent a total of zero minutes on WWII

YMMV, of course.

[Capt. Obvious]

56. Hogan's Heroes won us the war

[maxsolomon]

57. Born in 10/63. I grew up with an Encyclopedia of American History

that ended in the late 60s. But I read every volume 2, 3 times by the time I was 12.

I got a little paperback from my Grandma that was published in 1944, illustrating every battle in both theatres. It ends before the war did.

I know quite a bit. And so do my kids, who had a very good education which included Zinn's People's History.

[DinahMoeHum]

59. My father and uncles served in uniform then. . .

My father was with the Army's 106th Infantry during the Battle of the Bulge/December 1944.

One of my uncles was a B-17 navigator flying missions over Europe in late 1942 - early 1944.

Another uncle was an Army photographer attached to the 509th Composite Group stationed at Tinian Island in the Pacific. He took the photo of Col. Tibbets waving from his plane before the atomic bomb drop on Hiroshima; and also developed the photos taken by the plane's crew afterwards.

Any further questions/insights, you can always PM me.

[WilliamPitt]

60. A friend of mine did a poll in his high school on world history

One of his questions was: "What was the Holocaust?"

One answer: "When we bombed China."

True story.

[NealK]

74. Wow. Now that's really something.

Your avatar is really appropriate, right next to this answer.

[riverwalker]

61. I live WW2 every second of every day

My Dad (U.S. Army) landed in Europe on Utah beach, but towards the end of June, not D-Day. They embarked from Northern Ireland. He was older than the other guys, he was actually discharged then re-enlisted months later, after Pearl Harbor. Poor kid from Minneapolis, born to recent Norwegian immigrants. He made his way to Luxembourg and was captured on Halloween night 1944, they were sleeping in a barn when the Nazi's found them. He was a POW until May/June 1945. Back then, they didn't have a word like "PTSD", just murmurs of "shell shock" and such, and people still had shame of difficulty adjusting. When I was 11, he took me to see "The Longest Day", I had a toothache and didn't understand the movie at all, I would had preferred "Beach Party Bingo". It was the only movie my Dad ever took me to. It was important to him for me to see. Unable to talk about his experience, I know now, it was his attempt to reach out, to share with me.
My Mom was born on an island in Northern Norway where her family lived for 300 years. The Nazi's had a scorched earth policy towards Northern coast of Norway when it was invaded and brutally occupied by them. Their family farm was razed and burned by the Nazi occupiers and the family scattered. She ended up marrying an American GI after liberation (not my Dad) and came to America as a war bride. They divorced and she then met my Dad. She was a beautiful 16 year old girl when the Nazi's invaded and occupied Norway, she never spoke of those years, I only know she made my brothers promise to never, never marry a German.

[trof]

67. Thanks for sharing that. Really.

That's such a trite phrase now.
But I do appreciate hearing your story.

I have a close friend who grew up in the Netherlands under Nazi occupation.
He's written a book about it.
http://fritsforrer.net

WWII affected us in many ways.
It was the primary cause of my parent's divorce in 1944.
That's a long story.
I never saw him again and have never really regretted it.
But I know it had an effect on my life.

[riverwalker]

76. lots of us

not only a legacy for us children, but now I can see my children and even my grandchildren carry the residue if the war.

[Paladin]

63. I regard WWII as the last truly just and necessary war this country waged.

Had I been of age back then, I would have been honored to serve.

[trof]

68. I agree. The rest have been for purely polical reasons.

[graywarrior]

72. I know it messed my dad up and that he wouldn't talk about it

So, I know next to nothing about what really happened.

[madfloridian]

75. Hey trof, I referred to your post in a video I posted in the Video section. Remember Cabaret?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017158161

I think it told more about how such a power rise could happen so quickly than any war movie I ever saw.

Train your youth....indoctrinate them. It can happen anywhere.

[Beacool]

77. It doesn't surprise me.

"The 'younger generation' seem to me to be woefully ignorant" just about everything that has to do with general culture and not technology.