There's nothing radical or exciting about Pope Francis.

[sibelian]

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Last edited Wed Nov 13, 2013, 01:17 PM - Edit history (1)

His opinions aren't particularly distinguishable from those of ordinary liberals the world over (EDIT - with the clear exception of his opposition to gay marraige). Nobody fawns over US.

Oh, the COURAGE of being nice to disabled people. Cos that's such a debatable, contraversial issue.

[cali]

1. context.

[sibelian]

12. It is a thing that I have said in the context

of me thinking things generally about Pope Lovelypants.

[treestar]

18. Exactly.

The oldest and most conservative institution affecting us today.

[hlthe2b]

2. Only the difference that none of us have such influence over 1.2 billion adherents

--however mired in utterly antiquated Vatican edicts-- some dating back nearly two millenia--they may be.


I'd say that is one BIG difference.

[sibelian]

13. Yeeeeah. Catholicism will be..... ReBOOOOOOOORN!!!

Hm.

[hlthe2b]

36. I'm agnostic, so don't feel your comments impact me. But facts are facts...

Catholicism is in decline, along with most organized religion, but far from dead, no matter what you or I or anyone else might wish to believe.

[sibelian]

38. By my response to you, I meant to convey a certain cynicism regarding his Popeness's influence.

As in - I don't think you really get to reprogramme the adherents of a religion and thus the religion itself by hiring a new front man. That might be how Catholicism likes to THINK it works... I don't think that's how people work.

I don't expect Catholicism to die. I'm not very pleased with it, anyhow, and it's current "revamp" seems doomed to be insubstantial. Generations of prejudice don't get knocked over by one man, however well-intentioned his words or embroidered his garments may be.

[treestar]

19. Not sure about the influence

At least, not in the US. Catholics pretty much think what they want to now. They are not "supposed" to, but they do. There's also a big confusion about the ex cathedra thing. Catholics aren't required to agree with the Pope about everything. In fact now there are going to be some right wing ones who don't agree, from the right.

[hlthe2b]

35. Absolutely, but I am pretty darned sure they are listening to him, nontheless

Those who haven't left are pretty intent on hearing someone echo their own interpretations and dissatisfaction, in my experience.

[onehandle]

3. I believe the stampede of conservatives distancing themselves from him speaks volumes. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

11. What do you mean? I have not seen one single Bishop or Cardinal resign nor

any parishes walk away. Why would they, Francis agrees with them, he is against gay rights and against choice, he's far right as Dolan and as ethical as Cardinal Law.

[factsarenotfair]

4. As a human, not so much. As a Pope, a lot.

...especially compared to the Borgia Popes.

[LuvNewcastle]

5. I wouldn't say his opinions are those of an ordinary liberal.

Liberals are pro-GLBT rights, pro-choice, and support the rights of women to basically do anything a man can do. Francis has none of those positions. His economic opinions seem to be rather liberal, from the little bit I've read about them. After putting it all together, I would call him a moderate because of his economic views, but without that, he'd still be a conservative, although not a particularly rigid one. I do agree that his views aren't anything special, though. His opinions are those of an ordinary American Catholic priest, I'd say.

[sibelian]

14. Yes, actually, that's TRUE.

Thank you for pointing that out.

[dembotoz]

6. perhaps the first pope not to further the spanish inquisition would also be considered a great pope

[Renew Deal]

7. What gets people excited about the pope is that he's doing what he's supposed to be doing

He's caring for the sick and the poor while spreading his message. That differentiates him for many people over Ratzinger and Pope John Paul II who was elderly for much of his papacy.

I think Francis fits in well to the world view of Millenials and many others that see the pope as a source of hope.

[sibelian]

28. Hopey Popey.

I'm inspired.

Actually I'm not inspired. I'm fed up with this nonsense. I thought, you see, possibly foolishly, that these days people were able to make up their own minds about how the world works, not get led around by the nose in a dog and pony show where the guy in the posh frock and the Hat of Significance regenerates from Pope Nastyface to the Hopey Popey like in Dr Who so it's, you know, OK to be nice to people now cos God's had yet another of his celestial fuuuuricken makeovers. I think it's infantilising bilge and I'm sick of being told it's okay for adults to swallow it.

[Arugula Latte]

41. I've decided

I like you.

[sibelian]

44. Why, thank you!

[scheming daemons]

8. he is the first pope in our lifetimes that has held some liberal views

That IS radical and different.

Yes, he still holds some conservative views... But on many issues, liberals now have an ally in the vatican.

THAT is new and significant.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. Francis is the Ronald Reagan of religion, a facade of smiles and kindness covering

a pernicious politic that attacks gay people and women. He fools the foolish.

[beachbum bob]

10. I suggest the OP

study Catholic doctrine and see how much this new pope is deviating from it....

[Bluenorthwest]

15. He's not deviating from church doctrine at all. Not a bit.

Why do you think that he is deviating from doctrine? He is not. I note that you don't cite any examples.

[sibelian]

17. ....

1. These days, actual Catholics hold something of a plurality of views on the politically significant aspects of catholic doctrine.

2. If the Catholic camps which we might recognise as "left wing" and "right wing" remain unaffected in their views by the transition from Ratso to Lovelypants it is neither surprising nor of any consequence, really, as that's how grown-ups behave these days, and, being the case, renders the Ratso-to-Lovelypants rebranding exercise something of a circus.

3. If the Catholic camps which we might recognise as "left wing" and "right wing" are in fact SWAYED by the transition from Ratso to Lovelypants then that is a cause for GREAT ALARM and awfulness as we are clearly dealing with people who base their opinions about reality on someone whose value as an opinionator rests on wearing pretty clothes and a silly hat. Also, in THAT context, Catholicism reveals itself to be a VERY BAD THING which (were it up to me and possibly it's better that it isn't) should NOT BE A THING as grown-ups these days SHOULDN'T THINK LIKE THAT. The reason being, all we'd need to lose all the useful stuff is another Ratso.

"OH. God likes being nice to people now because it's not the guy from Poltergiest II anymore. In fact, God digs the SHIT out of that shit. THAT MEANS I DO, TOO."

NOT a sensible way of being, says I.

[msanthrope]

26. Indeed...kindly point out which bit of the doctrine you think the Pope is deviating from:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

[HappyMe]

16. I'm sure that there are many more people with that opinion.

There are also plenty of people that like this Pope.

Neither opinion is wrong.

[Bluenorthwest]

21. Those that like him like an anti choice homophobe. They are free to do so, of course.

Others are also free to point that fact out. Those who dig homophobes dig some strange stuff if you ask me. 'Oh, he says gays attack God and abortion is murder, I love him!!!'. So sure. Whatever.

[Comrade Grumpy]

46. You have a very crabbed world view. n/t

[Myrina]

20. ... but Sister Sarah Palin has started a pissing contest with him ...

.... she doesn't think that Jesus was liberal, and that the Pope's recent actions and statements are disingenuous to who/what Jebus/G*d was really all about.


This is one food fight I WANT to see.

[sibelian]

22. Sigh. I don't want to barf on your Cheerios. Truthfully, I really don't. But.

Last edited Wed Nov 13, 2013, 11:17 AM - Edit history (1)

C'MOOOOOAN.

It's such a colossal pile of shlubby content-free posturing, PALIN, ffs, of what consequence is SHE? Huh? Little Ms Quitty Q McQuitface? vs POPE LOVELYPANTS. OHHHH. THE. DRAMA.

I mean, seriously, who gives a flying FUCK? It's non-fucking-news. Nothing has, in fact, HAPPENED.

Still. If you like to watch the fur fly I won't say you're bad. I like popcorn, too.

[JNelson6563]

24. Looks like your OP is a good try at least...

To get the fur flying, as it were.

[Myrina]

25. It's going to cause some cranial implosion on the far right ...

.... I know several folks - just in my family - who are still Catholics and who think Sister Sarah is the bee's knees.
So to have the two factions at odds (well, blatantly at odds) is going to force them to think about which one they REALLY stand for, and which they REALLY believe, and that will be VERY interesting.

And hopefully it has a ripple effect across the rest of Teabagistan so people will do some naval gazing & realize that the Nutters aren't the patriotic religious folk they claim to b e.

[sibelian]

27. Well, that tickles me. :)

And I won't deny you your sips from the long, cool glass of schadenfreude that I'm sure you richly deserve...

Still, I don't pay as much attention to the Talibaggers as I used to. I'm really of the opinion that they're a spent force, these days...

[JNelson6563]

23. The Catholic wingers at my work

are rather unhappy about him. That tells me there's things to like about him.

Julie

[theHandpuppet]

32. Tell them not to worry their pretty little heads

What's not to like, if this is your cup of tea?

1. Continues to oppress and suppress progressive nuns
http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/lets_face_it_pope_francis_still_aint_that_great_20130921?ln

In April, Francis reaffirmed his predecessor’s censure of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, an umbrella organization that represents 80 percent of Catholic nuns in the United States. These nuns were penalized by the Vatican, and continue to be penalized, for focusing on poverty instead of stoking moral panic about the existence of gay people or sexually active teenagers — exactly the kind of community-centered work that Francis just declared sorely missing from the church.
In the report admonishing the sisters, and stripping them of the independent authority to develop their own charter and conduct their own business, the Vatican said they were undermining “issues of crucial importance to the life of Church and society, such as the Church’s Biblical view of family life and human sexuality” and promoting “radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith.”
Francis’ censure places these women under the full authority of the Vatican and its “program of reform,” which includes the appointment of three male bishops to manage the rewriting of the nuns’ conference statutes, review its community-based programs and otherwise ensure the group “properly” follows Catholic teaching.

2. Continues to support an Archbishop who heads the crackdown on nuns and shaped policy regarding the clergy’s sex abuse of minors
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57604023/
September 21, 2013, 1:40 PM
Pope keeps cleric who leads crackdown on liberal U.S. nuns
(excerpt)
In another important decision, Francis left Archbishop Gerhard Mueller in the powerful role of prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Mueller, originally appointed by Benedict XVI, directs the Holy See's crackdown on nuns suspected of undermining Catholic teaching on the priesthood and homosexuality. His office also shapes policy dealing with clergy who sexually abuse minors.
Under Mueller's tenure, critics of the Vatican's strategy have so far been frustrated in their lobbying for Vatican and other church hierarchy to be held accountable for policy that for decades left pedophile priests in their ministry, merely shuffling them from parish to parish when complaints emerged....

3. Is firmly against contraception and choice.
http://www.thenation.com/article/176345/pope-francis-sexism-human-face#
(excerpt)
Sure enough, the day after the publication of the interview—and to much less notice—Pope Francis gave a firmly anti-abortion speech to a gathering of Catholic gynecologists. He quoted Pope Benedict on the connection between “openness to life” and social justice (“openness to life” is code for banning not just abortion but contraception), castigated abortion as part of a “throw-away culture” and urged Catholic doctors to refuse to perform them

4. Will punish nuns and priests who speak out for the rights of women and gays
http://world.time.com/2013/09/25/pope-francis-excommunicates-priest-who-supports-womens-ordination-and-gays/#ixzz2kDKqUsuJ
Pope Francis Excommunicates Priest Who Backed Women’s Ordination and Gays
Despite his reforming attitude, Francis still supports traditional doctrine

5. Gay marriage and/or adoption? No way that will ever get the seal of approval.
Cardinal Francis George of Chicago quoted Pope Francis when defending the cuts of funding to the Immigration Coalition:
The cardinal quoted Pope Francis, saying that marriage should be “a stable union of man and woman” and that “this union is born of their love, as a sign and presence of Godʼs own love.”
Further quoting Pope Francis, he said that this union is also born of “the acknowledgment and acceptance of the goodness of sexual differentiation, whereby spouses can become one flesh and are enabled to give birth to a new life.” – first Encyclical of Pope Francis: Lumen Fidei.

6. Has no use for feminists.
http://ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margins/pope-francis-women-and-chauvinism-skirts
“What I would like to add is that feminism, as a unique philosophy, does not do any favors to those that it claims to represent, for it puts women on the level of a vindictive battle, and a woman is much more than that. The feminist campaign of the '20s achieved what they wanted and it is over, but a constant feminist philosophy does not give women the dignity that they deserve. As a caricature, I would say that it runs the risk of becoming chauvinism with skirts.”

I'd say they are fretting about nothing at all.

[JNelson6563]

45. Perhaps that will cheer them up!

[theHandpuppet]

47. Like I said, no cause for alarm on their part

And if it makes them feel better in the short term, one of their own, Archbishop Kurtz, just got elected as prez of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. He'll advocate in Washington for the Church’s positions opposing same-sex marriage and the federal mandate for contraception coverage. He was formerly the chair of the Ad Hoc Committee for the Defense of Marriage and has been a vocal opponent of the Employment Nondiscrimination Act.
A bit more on Kurtz' history: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/11/bishops-former-defense-marriage-chair-now-their-president/71522/
So the hardliners can sleep well now with smiles on their faces.

[treestar]

37. Exactly.

He's not saying what they want to hear.

[theHandpuppet]

29. You know what was so ironic about that photo?

The church itself discriminates against the disabled. But no one ever questioned that. All you have to do for most folks, apparently, is show them a nice picture and they stop asking questions. Which, I suspect, is the point -- it works.

[sibelian]

30. It's infantilising bilgewater. It's not even as if his comments are

particularly radical even in the context of the history of Christianity.

I don't think it's all entirely cynical, however. I'm not yet absolutely convinced that there's anything more to him than an essentially nice-ish guy. I'm not convinced there's anything WRONG with him.

I just think the adulation is sickly, neurotic, misplaced and fundamentally TRIVIAL.

[SidDithers]

34. Yup. Pope Photo-Op has a great PR team...nt

Sid

[Arugula Latte]

40. Definitely.

Amazing how easily people get snookered by the smoke and mirrors.

[Vashta Nerada]

31. Well, liberals the world over don't hate homosexuals.

Equating Pope Franny's beliefs with liberal beliefs is asinine.

[sibelian]

42. I'm so glad you've reminded me. nt.

[SidDithers]

33. His opinion about marriage equality certainly is distinguishable from ordinary liberals...nt

Sid

[Arugula Latte]

39. "Liberals" don't think gay marriage is "a destructive attack on God's plan."

Francis does.

[sibelian]

43. True. nt.

[Demo_Chris]

48. Liberals don't protect tens of thousands of child rapists and torturers. nt

[rug]

49. There's nothing radical or exciting about the OP.

It's just another tired retread of thoughts from those who can not contemplate that either the Pope or the RCC are anything but unabashed evil.

Ho-hum.

[theHandpuppet]

50. Wake me when you're finished

[rug]

51. Like you've never said that before.