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[redgreenandblue]

This message was self-deleted by its author (redgreenandblue) on Thu Nov 14, 2013, 08:08 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Smarmie Doofus]

1. Interesting. Let me roll that around for a while.

I'm not sure whatever part of me that can wrestle with this one is fully awake yet.

[boston bean]

2. I need you to be a bit more clear in what you are saying. I'm not understanding. nt

[redgreenandblue]

5. I cannot think of a way to express it more clearly.

Sorry.

[The Straight Story]

6. Perhaps: being pro-choice and believing in the value of a fetus are not mutually exclusive

Nor should it be. A woman who wants to have a child sees that unborn child as more than a virus/group of cells/etc - she sees it as a small version of herself, a human, that is dependent on her for survival.

She can have that idea, feel that, AND express her feelings on it without being anti-choice or trying to change laws/minds about it. One can believe in the value of the life they carry (and call it that) and shouldn't be ripped for being anti-choice/feeding the rw/etc because she let's others know that is her view on it.

[boston bean]

7. I'm going to take it that you think I "rip" women for stating their personal choice.

Ah no, link to it, please.

I do however call them out if they think their feelings should have some impact on how other women feel.

I'm fully pro choice.

[The Straight Story]

12. Uh, no, I was speaking in general terms on the issue

And replying to you in an attempt to help answer your inquiry as to what the OP meant. I can delete my reply to you and post it to the op if it makes you feel better.

[idwiyo]

3. If you (generic) beleive intristic value of a foetus trumps my Right to Chose

than you are spouting RW forced-birthers propaganda.

Supporting restrictions on abortion simply means you (generic) do not support 'Her Body, Her Choice'. You (generic) support castrated and bastardised version of it, one that say 'You will do as *I* want, *I* have a right to dictate what you do to your body, because *I* said so'.

[redgreenandblue]

4. The point that has been argued here recently is that

"right to choose trumps intrinsic value" is not a sufficiently pro-choice stance, and that a pure pro-choice stance must also deny the intrinsic value.

[idwiyo]

9. Really? Or was it 'Don't force your beleifs on me, by supporting restrictions on my Right to Chose'?

I couldn't care less, what you (generic) think about abortion in general, or intrinsic value of the foetus as long as you (generic) don't try to force your beliefs down my throat.

Calling abortion "murder", trying to shame or guilt-trip me into doing what you (generic) think is best for me is NOT SUPPORT. It's forced-birthers bullshit. Just a slightly gentler version of it.

[redgreenandblue]

11. The vibe that I have been getting here is that regardless of whether the opinion is voiced,

the mere belief in the intrinsic value of a fetus, even if held in private and never expressed, is misogynistic, anti-choice and so on, akin to racism and opposition to gay marriage.

[boston bean]

13. not.true...

when one tries to guilt shame using their morality as a measuring stick, is what is objectionable.

I swear people don't know what pro-choice is.

It means mind your own damn business and let women make the decision they feel is best for them. No judgments, you respect them and their ability to make a decision.

I'm not talking about your family or close friends who seek guidance or opinion, but blurting out on message boards that are presumedly pro choice, that you wouldn't have for these reasons and for these reasons you think women ought to do this that or the other thing.

[idwiyo]

18. Not true at all. People who believe they have a right to restrict my choice

because their moral values trump my Right to Chose are the ones who make most noise.

Just as forced-birthers everywhere, they believe they have a right to do as they pleased, say what they want, and they get very pissy and defensive when called on it. Because according to them I, and others like me MUST accept their point of view, and allow them to spew forced-bithers propaganda without impunity. Because they vote for Democratic nominees and support bastardized and castrated version of Right to Chose. That makes them Pro-Choice apparently. As long as Choice means they get to dictate what is right for me.

[ancianita]

15. You misunderstand the meaning of "intrinsic value" in these discussions, then.

[idwiyo]

19. Please explain what is it you think I don't understand.

[ancianita]

20. I say that you use this word to mediate the pro-/anti-choice conflict without defining it yourself

If logic in the abortion "debate" is what your OP is going for, then we all have to agree on the basic definitions. Logical argument proceeds from agreed upon assumptions. You say that "intrinsic value" has no bearing on pro-/anti-choice positions; that it's separate.

I say that until you and everyone here agree on the definition of "intrinsic value" here, we can't logically proceed.

Can you define it?

If you can't, then I say you don't understand it, except intuitively, perhaps. But intuition doesn't start or stand as logical discussion. The definition ball's in your court now.

[ancianita]

8. So what are YOU saying -- there's a third stance?

If you're implying that, then what is the non-fallacious stance?

By the way, the "appeal to consequences" isn't always fallacious; it's a way of examinig the various costs -- individual or otherwise -- of decisionmaking, a value placed on different kinds of cause-effect thinking.

[redgreenandblue]

10. I am saying that

people can be pro-choice and believe in the intrinsic value of an unborn fetus. I am saying that the fact that anti-choicers might use the intrinsic value of a fetus to support their point of view, does not imply that the belief in such an intrinsic value makes a person anti-choice. Nor does the question of being pro-choice or anti-choice have any bearing on the question of intrinsic value.

[ancianita]

14. It's your fallacious assumption that we all agree on the definition of "intrinsic value," and

that that definition is the determining factor in our arguments. We don't, and it's not. Along with that logic problem, as I see it here, there are millions who use "intrinsic value" as some word salad front for power and control over half the planet. When you bring this issue up, you invite them in to muddy the discussion.

It's not a common sense issue, this definition. Now, when we limit who can decide on "intrinsic value," no matter its definition, then we get to the real definition of the term. I say that women's intrinsic value is to decide on who/what goes into and out of their bodies. They have the knowledge of "intrinsic knowledge" enough to serve humanity's interests well. And humanity better recognize.

When others don't agree, they presume to set the stage for promoting the "foundational" theological stance of religious dogma that teaches young and old children that "our bodies are not our own," along with all the old school ramifications of that.

There's all kinds of logical fallacies surrounding abortion. "Intrinsic value" is only one of them. If you want to privilege its use and discussion here, I think the same old sides will simply line up the way they have in the past, just under a "new" framing.

[ancianita]

16. Then, any question of "intrinsic value" should have no bearing on pro-/anti-choice abortion issues.

You said, "Nor does the question of being pro-choice or anti-choice have any bearing on the question of intrinsic value," so the converse is true, as well.

Again, I ask you: If one can't use "intrinsic value" to substantiate pro-choice and and anti-choice abortion positions, then what is the determining substantiation.

[LuvNewcastle]

17. A fetus doesn't have the same meaning for everybody.

For some, a fetus represents hope for what it might become. For others, a fetus represents fear of what it might become. Neither is wrong or right. A person who feels one way might feel the other way if they're pregnant again later. That's why we need to have the choice of various options to suit a particular person for that particular time. For some a fetus is a blessing, for others it's a nuisance. We need choices to deal with fetuses the same as we do for any other medical condition.