Why even Catholics should be insisting that Pope Francis

[MineralMan]

support the rights of all people to have equal rights.

Women, LGBT people, children...everyone. Women deserve an equal place in church hierarchy, and have an absolute right to control their own reproductive life as they see fit. LGBT people have the right to marry those they love. Children have the right not to be sexually abused by religious leaders and the right to see those who abuse them brought before the law and receive justice. Believers in other religions or in no religion have precisely the same rights as followers of his church. We are all equal, and not subject to any religious belief we do not share.

Until Pope Francis embraces all of those things and promotes them, he will have no praise from me. He deserves nothing but an insistence that he respect and defend the equal rights of every individual.

[William769]

1. Don't' hold your breath

Or should I say hell will freeze over first.

[MineralMan]

2. Don't worry. I won't.

I also won't stand by and watch praise given to this Pope without disclaimers about his continuation of the intolerance the church he leads supports and continues. Nope. Not going to happen.

[William769]

5. Me either.

And it's not just that Group that I have a problem with either. The Mormons & Southern Baptists will attest to that.

[MineralMan]

8. Absolutely. Churches may be able to dictate to their followers, but

in the United States, they may not dictate to anyone else. Our laws must be obeyed, not theirs. We have tolerated the intrusion of religious groups in our government for far too long. It is time for such interference to cease forever.

[William769]

11. Agreed.

Who said something to the effect that the 1st Amendment was not to protect Religion from Government but Government from Religion.

[NYC Liberal]

9. Thank you. I also refuse to stand by and let the

fawning go unanswered.

[MineralMan]

12. None of us should stand by. We should

be vocal and insistent.

[bravenak]

3. I agree.

I'm waiting for him to do something about the abuses. And quite a few other things before I start praising him.

[MineralMan]

4. Thank you.

No church is above the law. Sadly, that has not been the case with regard to some churches and some nations' laws.

[DonViejo]

6. It took the Church 500 year to forgive Galileo

for his "abominations" that weren't even Biblically based, i.e. against "the Word of G-d." How long do you think it will take that same institution to forgive members of the LGBT community for even existing?

[Vashta Nerada]

38. I don't need forgiveness.

The way I live my life isn't a sin. I'm just being who I am.

[DonViejo]

40. I agree, same applies to me...

however, Galileo didn't need forgiveness either for being brilliant and or a modern (for those times) scientist; that didn't stop the Church from damning him for the next 500 years. If you're expecting this Pope to issue one grand fiat declaring Church teaching and policy of the last thousands of years to be wrong, forget it. It ain't gonna happen. Maybe in a hundred years the Church will change but, Francis and his cronies will not do it. At best, Francis may have begun a process of the Church hierarchy reviewing its nonsensical teachings but there will be no overnight changes. The Church has barely begun dealing with women and the issues of their lives, hope for a re-evaluation of scriptural interpretation and Church teachings about the LBGT community is sadly, and imho, a long way off; part of the reason I am no longer an RC (for 39 + years) and no longer a Xtian for (34+ years)

[DisgustipatedinCA]

7. You're looking for absolute results.

In doing so, you're not giving credence to the delta, to the differences between this Pope and the Nazi Pope. Odd coming from someone who is a proponent of realpolitik, of incremental change. It's true that this Pope hasn't lived up to my agnostic sensibilities, but that's kind of tied to the definition of being the Pope.

[MineralMan]

10. With regard to human rights, yes, I am looking for absolute

results. Absolutely. If some religious organization opposes laws that help ensure equality, then that organization is wrong. Their rules and dogma have no authority here. None. I make no apology for that kind of absolutism.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

31. How absolute was your opposition to the President when he didn't support gay marriage? nt

[MineralMan]

35. Personally, I was in favor of full marriage equality,

and still am. It took the President some time to come to that position. It took many people some time to come to that position. I wrote to the President to encourage him to change his position at the time he was in favor of a lesser form of equality. That's what I did at that time. He eventually changed his position, and that was a good thing. His support for marriage equality has assisted it to become reality in more and more jurisdictions and that progress continues.

My support for marriage equality is clear. I put it in action in my own political activism, as you can see by clicking the precinct website in my signature line.

Thank you for your question.

[Bluenorthwest]

13. What are the differences other than the style? He's the same as Benedict, who is alive and still

at the Vatican being the 'Non Public Pope'. They split the functions, that's all.

[rug]

14. Lol, the Guardian article at least had analysis.

A dog whistle does not a commentary make.

[MineralMan]

15. My commentary is quite visible in the post.

It is my opinion and my commentary. Is it in the Guardian? Nope. It is my commentary, posted in DU.

Your characterization of my insistence on equality as a "dog whistle" is nonsense. If you disagree with any of the points in my commentary, you have a forum in which to explain your disagreement.

[rug]

17. It is commentary, it is (unoriginal) opinion, it is not analysis.

OTOH, the Guardian article that you're attempting to riff for the benefit of GD is as far from a dog whistles as the OP is from analysis.

This spot tight here is as good as any to explain my disagreement.

[MineralMan]

19. Everything I post on DU is my opinion if it states an opinion.

If I do not write at length, I still state my opinion.

Do have a pleasant Sunday.

[cali]

16. not a surprise from you that you don't care about

economic disparity and poverty, that you don't care about corporate control or the TPP or fracking.

[MineralMan]

18. You are incorrect. I did not mention those things

in my OP, but that does not in any way imply that I do not care about them. This thread is not about those things. It is about human equality and interference by this Pope and his church in that equality.

I am insisting that this Pope deal with those issues. Issues he has dealt with in a reasonable way are not the subject of my thread. I am talking about other issues in my post. If you would care to show me where I was wrong in calling on him to change his views on those issues, you're welcome to point them out.

I did not choose to discuss corporate control or your other issues in my OP. I focused on something else.

[William769]

21. It damn sure isn't to deny it!

[leftyohiolib]

22. that's not an answer and the church would probably disagree

[MineralMan]

24. Since you self-deleted your post, nobody

can make any sense of this subthread.

[leftyohiolib]

30. that's fine i dont want to get wrapped up in another bash religion thread

[MineralMan]

32. Please do as you please.

This is not a bash religion thread, though. It is a call on a religion to do the right thing. There is a difference.

[leftyohiolib]

33. you can call this whatever you like

[MineralMan]

41. Yes, I can. It's a thread I started.

You posted something in it. While I was writing a reply to your post, you self-deleted your own post, so I couldn't post my answer. Frankly, I couldn't see any reason for self-deleting, and wrote a reply to you.

Now, we're talking about nothing in a subthread that you began with a post you later deleted. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, so I won't post further in this subthread.

[William769]

26. What's not an answer?

[MineralMan]

23. I had just finished a longer reply, but it didn't post

because the poster self-deleted. It used many more words to say the same thing you said.

[William769]

28. Well I don't like to mince words.

[MineralMan]

29. Indeed. I like them more coarsely chopped, myself.

[cali]

25. of course you don't. but we know where you stand.

you've made that clear.

[MineralMan]

27. No, you don't know where I stand.

You just think you do. This thread is not about any of those things, and I will not take part any further in your attempt to make it about those things.

[Humanist_Activist]

45. Eh, I'm sure he cares more about the poor than you do about LGBT people. n/t

[Vashta Nerada]

34. Hear, hear.

[MineralMan]

36. Thanks!

[treestar]

37. There are some who do

Like most large groups of people, there are vast differences.

The Catholic church is the last institution I'd expect to change, but it does. There are altar girls. Also women as lectors and deacons - someday they will have to let go of the celibate priest or they just aren't going to have any. I already know of a parish that has no pastor.

[MineralMan]

39. There are, indeed.

Ordinary Catholics are standing up to insist that the Archbishop here in Minneapolis St. Paul step down. It would be the right thing for him to do, as growing evidence indicates. There has been much hiding of clergy abuse here, and the Archbishop spent millions to fight marriage equality in Minnesota. He should be gone, and will be, I hope.

[bvar22]

42. Would you at least be willing to admit that...

...Pope Francis has taken steps in the right direction?

..or will you stay entranced in you purist position of All or Nothing Right Fu**ing NOW!

[Vashta Nerada]

43. What steps has he taken?

Be honest now.

He's doing what he's supposed to be doing. He hasn't moved anything forward.

[MineralMan]

44. The right direction with regard to what?

To marriage equality? No steps in that direction. To equality in the church for women? Nothing in that direction, either. In fact, he has affirmed past rules. To reproductive choice? I'm not seeing any movement in that direction, either.

You see, I only mentioned some issues in my original post. Those are the ones I'm talking about. If you want to talk about other issues, you need to name them so I don't have to guess what you're asking. If he's made progress in the areas I mentioned, then fill me in on that progress. I'm not seeing it.

Yes, I am insisting that the church act with regard to those things I mentioned. And yes, right now. If now now, when? All of those things are part of progressive thinking. All are important. Does the church work to help the poor, displaced, and needy? It does, and it has for a very long time. Does it ask that we treat our planet well? Yes. It has for a very long time. Those are biblical positions and are well-supported in the scripture the church claims to follow.

So, tell me what great movement this Pope has brought to the world. And then tell me why it still puts roadblocks in the way of the things I mentioned in my OP. I'm listening, and will respond.