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Mon Dec 19, 2011, 07:06 AM

We're not oddballs or unrealistic nutjobs.

I'm speaking of those of us that want a fully funded public sector and are against austerity. Those of us who want a strong regulatory regimen. Those of us who do not want the safety net monkeyed around with. Those of us who want living wages and balanced trade policies. Those of us who demand corporations and the well to do to pay more as they have in the past. Those of us who want those in government and all its functionaries to be bound to Constitutional compliance and restraints. Those of us against privatization of government functions. We're not pie in the sky unreasonable wide eyed crazy liberals. If we complain about course of events and "compromise" at this point, please think of other ways to describe us rather than "purists", Nader supporters, people that don't understand "process", Obama haters or whatever. Just argue your position straight up and if we are wrong, show us where we are wrong.

Thanks

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Arrow 37 replies Author Time Post
Reply We're not oddballs or unrealistic nutjobs. (Original post)
mmonk Dec 2011 OP
me b zola Dec 2011 #1
NNN0LHI Dec 2011 #2
Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #5
NNN0LHI Dec 2011 #11
Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #12
Bluenorthwest Dec 2011 #13
NNN0LHI Dec 2011 #19
Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #25
socialist_n_TN Dec 2011 #35
NNN0LHI Dec 2011 #37
hootinholler Dec 2011 #28
dawg Dec 2011 #20
NNN0LHI Dec 2011 #21
dawg Dec 2011 #22
mmonk Dec 2011 #23
NNN0LHI Dec 2011 #24
mmonk Dec 2011 #27
mmonk Dec 2011 #6
eridani Dec 2011 #26
abelenkpe Dec 2011 #29
unapatriciated Dec 2011 #3
Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #4
bigtree Dec 2011 #7
mmonk Dec 2011 #10
Bluenorthwest Dec 2011 #15
bigtree Dec 2011 #17
dawg Dec 2011 #8
UnrepentantLiberal Dec 2011 #9
SammyWinstonJack Dec 2011 #16
ananda Dec 2011 #14
mmonk Dec 2011 #18
DirkGently Dec 2011 #30
mmonk Dec 2011 #33
MjolnirTime Dec 2011 #31
tomp Dec 2011 #34
Skittles Dec 2011 #32
WI_DEM Dec 2011 #36

Response to mmonk (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 07:09 AM

1. K&R

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Response to mmonk (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 07:14 AM

2. What is your definition of "well to do?"

Reason I ask is it seems like a lot of 99 percenters think raising our property taxes is a great idea.

I don't think being forced out of our home due to rising property taxes is a great idea. All my wife and I have is our home. And we can't sell it for what we have invested in it.

Do you consider us well to do?

Don

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 07:52 AM

5. I know, but I don't think he's mentioning the million specifics? Merely a GENERAL CONCEPT that

those of us who want to PROTECT AND DEFEND the 99% against the 1% are not crazy. As for your property taxes, I'm all for property taxes being raised on properties beyond a certain value that render these properties of the rich. I doubt yours fits into that. Am I correct in assuming your property doesn't fit into the description of a property owned by someone who is rich? Are you rich? Just asking, and not trying to play 'semantics.' I've played semantics with Repukes plenty of times, whereby they say, "Oh well, someone who makes $200,000 and has 14 kids is not rich!" That's just bullshit to prevent a real discussion.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 08:12 AM

11. I retired from an auto factory so I am not rich

My retirement is about $24,000 a year and dropping. My pension was reduced by about a $1000 this year. My property taxes went up $1200 this year.

I consider our 1500 square foot house a pretty nice place to live because we fixed it up and took care of it. Sure isn't no McMansion though.

Does that sound rich to you?

Don

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 08:22 AM

12. Nope. You and I are the people we DO NOT mention regarding having to pay more taxes

It's people like the Koch Brothers, who might just be paying less taxes than I am.

I understand your concern though. Politicians are not the nicest people on the planet, particularly Repukes. They would increase taxes across the board just to hurt the non-wealthy, and cause them to be against taxes, period. And the way it needs to be done is via progressive taxes.

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 08:42 AM

13. Property taxes are local, not nation wide issues, Don

 

What this thread addresses is the larger picture. There are many States and localities that run property taxes in ways those of us from other places do not understand at all. I offer that failed local politics is what leads to that sort of thing. Your taxes went up because of your local tax law, not because others are seeking justice on other issues thousands of miles from you.
There are places in the US where property taxes need to rise. Others where they need to drop. In CA., they freeze at purchase, so some folks I know who inherited homes pay under $500 on houses now worth more than half a million. Should my pals complain that they pay 375 on a house they could sell for 600K today? Is their situation anything like your own?

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 09:44 AM

19. Don't agree about this not being a federal issue

This is why when someone begins talking about raising taxes with no specificity it unnerves me. It is because I am already on the edge financially.

This is a national issue because if my state doesn't receive the federal dollars it needs to keep operating I know darn well my state will need to make up for the loss of those federal dollars somewhere. And in the past those shortfalls were made up with higher property taxes on people just like myself. Texas used Federal Stimulus money to balance the state budget for instance.

So this is a concern that is probably more important to me than most of those concerns expressed by those seeking justice on other issues thousands of miles from me. I am much more concerned about my property taxes increasing than the Federal Reserve. My wife and I don't want to become homeless.

Don

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 02:07 PM

25. I know, Don. People are living on the edge. Right wingers have destroyed this country.

It's up to us to educate people and begin rebuilding it. I do understand the fears about what might be done. We can't trust the govt. from Reagan to the present day.

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 10:13 AM

35. I'm a Marxist. Tax the 1% at a 99% rate

and maybe local governments would have enough subsidies to not have to raise taxes on someone who draws a $24k per year pension.

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #35)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 10:21 AM

37. You don't think I would be against that do ya?

I would be all for that. I think we ought to let them pay for everything. SS, Medicare, Medicaid, everything. Every damn penny of it. They can afford it easily. They are the ones who caused this problem by shipping all our jobs overseas. Let them just subtract a little bit from their profits and pay for everything. And I mean everything.

Don

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 11:57 PM

28. They may not be directly a federal tax issue

However, when federal subsidies to the states are cut or worse targeted then the shortfall must be made up at the local level.

Local property taxes are impacted by federal policy.

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 09:50 AM

20. That much of an increase is unconscionable.

It almost certainly stems from the budget-slashing hysteria at the federal and state levels that pushes more and more costs onto local governments.

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Response to dawg (Reply #20)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 10:09 AM

21. $1200 is what the taxes on our home were when we moved in 22 years ago

They are right at $4800 now. Haven't seen the increase for next year yet. When we bought the place we figured they might double and go up to $2400 tops and we should be able to pay that after we got it paid for even on a small pension.

Now we are discovering by the time we get it paid for the property taxes alone per month will be more than our entire original monthly mortgage payment was when we bought this house which included principal, interest, taxes and insurance back then. And my income back then was three times what I am making now.

Last time I told this story here another DUer posted, "Rent, problem solved."

Nice, huh?

Don

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 10:24 AM

22. Some people can't really understand a problem until they face it themselves.

It's sad that it's that way, but it really does seem to be the truth.

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 10:26 AM

23. And how much of that was attributable to the housing bubble?

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Response to mmonk (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 10:37 AM

24. Most of it is attributable to our factories closing up

Last edited Mon Dec 19, 2011, 11:18 AM - Edit history (1)

Just one Ford plant I retired from used to have 4800 hourly workers and another 1000 salaried employees paying huge amounts of withholding taxes into the state and federal coffers every week. They were all paying the maximum into FICA to keep Medicare and SS well funded too. Most those jobs have been moved overseas.

And that is just one factory out of hundreds just like it. We used to have streets lined with them. Both sides. Gone.

That is the problem.

Don

Edit: I ruled out the housing bubble theory when my homes value increased and my taxes went up, and then later my homes value decreased my taxes still went up.

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 06:07 PM

27. I was asking because home re-evaluations

during the bubble went up. Then the crash came but the taxes didn't go down since the re-evaluations didn't go down. Being a real estate professional, I was then asked by people to provide documentation on tax payer challenges about what price the taxing authority had their home valuated at. County and city taxes are rated on per thousand of the valuated worth. Anyway, I don't see how this fits with OWS or what we are asking, or what I am saying.

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 07:53 AM

6. I haven't noticed that argument.

I do know there is less rising of regressive taxation when the well to do pay more in income taxes. I'm not aware at any of the OWS functions I have attended where the participants were arguing for high property taxes.

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 05:53 PM

26. The problem is that property tax is now the major form of wealth tax

It shouldn't be that way, and it doesn't have to be. We can tax many other forms of wealth, and should.

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Response to NNN0LHI (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 12:57 AM

29. You have a house?

Must be nice. We're priced out. Somehow two well paying jobs isn't enough to buy a home in CA where bubble prices still exist. You have a pension? Must be nice. 401ks for us. It's been fun watching them ride the roller coaster of the markets this past twenty years. You got to retire? We'll be lucky to afford that one day....

I understand you don't feel rich. How do you think we feel? How do you think kids just graduating today with no prospect of a good paying secure job because they've all been outsourced and large debts feel?

When people talk about raising taxes it's not about property tax. The top marginal rate under Eisenhower was 92 percent. Yet the rich were still fabulously rich and the middle class thrived. I'm sure we can raise taxes on the wealthy without endangering your ability to afford your property tax.

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Response to mmonk (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 07:33 AM

3. k&r

I'm not a nutjob or a one issue voter. I support many policies. Policies that have always been part of our party's platform. I object to these policies and programs being dismantled piece by piece. I want to hear why you support a policy that would have been unthinkable three short years ago and not just stating that's the best we can expect. We are a party that has always dreamed big, civil rights, workers rights ect. The only argument I hear is times are tough and these are the best deals we can get. I say it was because of tough times in our history that people stood up and fought for what was right. We did not accept something because that was all we could get.

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Response to mmonk (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 07:49 AM

4. I AGREE!!! And you're right. Opposers don't argue their position straight up. nt

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Response to mmonk (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 07:54 AM

7. apparently, it's alright here to call someone defending the President 'morally bankrupt'

So you hold a position on a particular issue. If one can't disagree without calling you a name, they don't deserve to be taken seriously.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 08:01 AM

10. That was not me and I don't condone that approach.

I understand everyone's frustration.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 09:00 AM

15. If I as a gay man decided I could speak to all people based on the words of a few

 

others, I'd get to spew all manner of rhetoric all day long. Thus, I find it petty to see you speak to a poster who did not write those things as if he did. Note, that apparently some of us can not simply be as we are without someone calling us 'not Sanctified' or as Rick Warren did just prior to his Inaugural gig, equating us to pedophiles and incest.
When I see the pearl clutching on DU, I just shake my head and wonder. So many of the most ardent supporters defended Rick Warren's honoring, defended Donnie McClurkin, who called us child killers in the national media. Yet some DUer's opinion makes for an explosion of stress. To repeat: Presidential surrogates called gay people 'child killers' and 'pedophiles'. In the press. So this burden you endure, it does not strike me as all that important compared to that which others endure all day each day.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 09:13 AM

17. I see

morally bankrupt and petty. Got it.

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Response to mmonk (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 08:00 AM

8. No sir, I must disagree.

We are radical leftists, and unreasonable ones at that.

Just for supporting the type of policies that were the bipartisan consensus for 40 years prior to St. Reagan.

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Response to mmonk (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 08:00 AM

9. Why do you hate

 

our president?

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 09:05 AM

16. hehehe

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Response to mmonk (Original post)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 08:47 AM

14. I'm a proud liberal leftie...

... and my eyes are not crazed.

Now if you look at the "conservatives" . . . .

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Response to ananda (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 09:17 AM

18. They do have that glazed over look.

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Response to mmonk (Original post)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 12:58 AM

30. ++ Those ideas are only extreme when viewed from an extreme point of view.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #30)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 07:01 AM

33. Exactly.

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Response to mmonk (Original post)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 12:59 AM

31. purists don't accomplish much.

 

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Response to MjolnirTime (Reply #31)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 07:04 AM

34. define "purist". nt

 

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Response to mmonk (Original post)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 01:43 AM

32. be careful, or some idiot will call you a PURIST

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Response to mmonk (Original post)

Tue Dec 20, 2011, 10:17 AM

36. I don't see too many people accusing others around here of being

odd balls or unrealistic nut jobs. But yes, I think civility on all levels can be improved, but it goes both ways as well. There are some who consistently oppose Obama who call his supporters robots or uncritical thinkers as if only their position can possibly be right.

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