Abortion is just like any other medical and surgical procedure, a necessity to treat...

[Humanist_Activist]

an underlying condition. I celebrate, yes, celebrate, the existence of abortion, in all its various forms, as a safer, viable, alternative to bullshit and unsafe home "remedies" that have killed and maimed women in the past.

I view it as no different than something that is, in my opinion, even more drastic, open-heart surgery, I celebrate the existence of that as well, I should, both my Grandfather in the 1980s(died in 1997) and my father in the 2010s(still alive and kicking), both benefited from it. The only thing unfortunate about it was the underlying condition that lead to the necessity of the open-heart surgery. I don't see how pregnancy is any different, in general terms.

[renie408]

1. Are you a man?

[Humanist_Activist]

5. Yes, why? n/t

[renie408]

15. Because I cannot understand why your opinion on abortion is any more valid than

that of the conservative male who feels that abortion is wrong at all costs.

We are quick to tell those men to shut the fuck up, why not tell you the same thing?

I have had an abortion. It is not like removing a splinter. I fully support a woman's right to choose. I also fully support her right to regret that the choice had to be made. Posts like yours are insensitive and ignorant. The ignorant part I get you have no control over as you are a man. The insensitive part you can work on.

[Humanist_Activist]

16. Actually, my post is far more sensitive than you think...

I said absolutely NOTHING about what women should feel, that is the point.

[renie408]

20. Well, I am glad you cleared that up for me.

Cause I thought your point was that abortion is a simple medical procedure with no more emotional baggage attached to it than having your tonsils out. As this was stated as an accepted fact, I felt that it implied that anyone who thinks differently was wrong.

But since you have quickly told the women who have responded to you that they are, in fact, wrong and not you; I now see the error of my ways.

In case you didn't get it, that was sarcasm.

[PeaceNikki]

21. If you're implying that it MUST carry more emotional baggage than a tonsillectomy, you're wrong.

[renie408]

29. Yes, I think that is the CLEAR interpretation of what I have written...

if you have an agenda.

But, if you have average reading comprehension, you can clearly see that sentence was a synopsis of the OP's post, not a stated opinion of mine. You will have to let me know if you are average or below on the reading comprehension, I have no way of estimating accurately from the information. The agenda I can clearly see.

I think abortion is a decision between a woman and herself. I think that the woman who says that she had an abortion and didn't think twice about it is just as right as the woman who says she had an abortion and regretted that the choice had to be made. Because this is a PERSONAL decision and no on can tell you what to FEEL about it. No one. Not you, not the MAN who wrote this post. You think abortions are GREAT and a positive choice...well, OK. Personally, I disagree. However, I am a woman and I have a daughter and I will fight tooth and nail to preserve that choice.

[PeaceNikki]

30. Oh right, you MUST be a snarky asshole on DU, I forgot. Ok, let me jump on that.

[renie408]

32. No, you tend to be a snarky asshole when people misrepresent what you have written.

Did you understand my post or not? If you did, then you intentionally misrepresented what I wrote to fit your agenda. If you didn't...well, that speaks to the reading comprehension part.

[Humanist_Activist]

26. I said nothing about emotional baggage, hell my Dad had a bad type of survivor's guilt...

associated with his surgery, and I don't discount those feelings, they happen to people, my Grandpa just was happy to be alive. People are complex, and when it comes to emotions, they is no right or wrong way to feel about anything related to our bodies. Also, please point me to anywhere I said that someone was wrong to feel a certain way about their own medical treatments and I will tell myself that I was wrong.

[renie408]

36. "Abortion is just like any other medical and surgical procedure, a necessity to treat..."

You wrote that, right? That is not stated as an opinion, it is written as a statement of fact.

If I write "Anyone who thinks that abortion is just like any other medical and surgical procedure is an insensitive moron.", a thinking person might infer that anyone who feels differently is wrong and, therefore, an insensitive moron.

Am I right or wrong to feel badly about my abortion? Can you help me with that? You seem to be the definitive expert on the subject, after all. I swear to god, if you had said, "I think abortion is no bigger deal than any other medical procedure", the most I would have written would have been "I disagree and here's why." But that is not what you wrote and, honestly, what you wrote is just absurd. This is what YOU think. Fine. Think that. You will not regret any abortions you have to have. Oh...wait...

Can you not see how the way your post was written might come off as a little insensitive?

[Humanist_Activist]

40. I did write it in a clinical fashion...

it might seem cold, but I am just stating my opinion, and I was talking about it on a societal level, NOT individual level.

[idwiyo]

88. Abortion IS like any other medical procedure. It's no different than tooth extraction.

Neither are "wrong", both are necessary to deal with underlying condition.

The moral or emotional value you assign to it has nothing to do with procedure itself.

[Humanist_Activist]

93. "The moral or emotional value you assign to it has nothing to do with procedure itself."

You said it much more concisely that I did in my OP, thank you.

[idwiyo]

97. Your OP is perfectly fine. What's is wrong, is the stigma attached to this medical procedure.

Thank you for raising this topic!

[4 t 4]

59. Sorry but Men don't belong in this argument -EVER ! I know you meant well

but I just don't think men should ever be involved in this topic- ever. That is just my thought some women might differ but men have No Business on this topic in my mind. I don't want any man to ever tell me about abortion -ever!!!

[idwiyo]

89. Unlike you I am always happy to hear from supporters.

[Humanist_Activist]

94. Of course we belong, it affects our decision making, both politically and personally...

we have mothers, sisters, daughters, wives, girlfriends, and friends who are adversely affected by this issue, so it is of great concern to me that there is as little hindrance as possible for women to be able to have abortions.

This is particularly poignant for those of us with wives or girlfriends that we can make medical decisions for them when they are incapacitated in some way, which can happen at any time, and I would like to have all options open, including abortion, if I and her doctors feel it is for the best for her health and safety.

My fiancee and I are going to try to conceive within a year, and given her preexisting conditions, it will be a high risk pregnancy. We already discussed the risks and options, and how decisions will be handled if necessary. Its always important to have these discussions out in the open.

[pnwmom]

34. Thank you for the dose of reality.

I have a number of friends who also have gone through abortions and I don't know one who thought it was a trivial procedure, or anyone who wouldn't have preferred just not being pregnant in the first place.

Like you, I FULLY support the woman's right to choose. But I didn't get to that belief by minimizing or denying the impact of pregnancy and abortion on a woman.

[Humanist_Activist]

42. Who is denying the impact here? I'm concerned about the societal level only in...

my OP, what women feel individually should be dealt with individually, there is no need to deny or affirm those feelings on a societal level except to acknowledge that there is no right or wrong way to feel.

[pnwmom]

47. There have been many posts lately by people

who are claiming that there is virtually no significance or mpact on the woman who has an abortion. Unfortunately, while you don't believe that, you were using the same argument these people have been using -- that abortion's just like any other medical procedure.

[Humanist_Activist]

56. I think the problem is that people are projecting their experiences onto others...

when it comes to individual feelings about the impact of having an abortion, some women will be emotionally affected, either negatively or positively, others or won't feel much anything, and frankly, all these experiences are valid, on an individual level, but that is also where that validity ends.

[pnwmom]

58. I agree every person will react in her own unique way.

But among my friends who have had abortions, none of them felt like it was a trivial experience, like getting a tooth pulled or tonsils taken out.

I don't understand why some people here seem to think that supporting a woman's choice requires one to believe it's an insignificant matter.

[Humanist_Activist]

61. Since when are major medical procedures considered trivial?

Even seemingly simple(and routine) stuff, like Tonsillitis and getting them removed can damn near kill someone, almost happened to my cousin(she almost bled out), its rare, sure, but its a risk.

Having to get teeth pulled is another issue entirely, and can lead to self image issues along with worrying about practical considerations.

The point being that I feel that, regardless of what medical issues people deal with, it does everyone a disservice to try to project your own feelings onto what other people are going through, empathize and sympathize, but don't project.

[idwiyo]

76. Bollocks! Ours are results of scientific studies, yours are anecdotes. Ours are facts,

yours are opinions. There is nothing to argue about, just like one wouldn't argue that earth is flat, unless one is totally delusional.

Deal with it.

[idwiyo]

63. Bullshit! There is nothing insencetive about this post. Never mind "regret" crap.

Sick and bloody tired listening to "it was the Most Difficult Decision (tm) of My Life" mantra. No, it bloody wasn't for me and countless other women who feel nothing but RELIEF, and at least in my case feeling very happy.

Abortion IS something to celebrate. Without it I and my friends would be dead most likely.

Thank you to everyone who developed and is still working on improving all forms of abortion - some of the most safe medical procedures, both non- and surgical.

[PeaceNikki]

81. thank you

As always.

[idwiyo]

85. Nah, THANK YOU!

[lapislzi]

75. It can be like removing a splinter.

Mine was. Open heart surgery can be fraught with emotion for everyone involved. Or, you can be like Dick Cheney, get a new heart, and not give a shit about anything that went before.

Everyone's experience is different. The procedure itself is morally neutral.

I respect and support your right to experience the emotions that accompanied your abortion--in private, without judgment. It's private and deeply personal, and I am certainly in no position to judge you over it. But my experience was different. All I experienced was relief.

[PeaceNikki]

78. Well said. And that's totally ok, too.

There is a lot of implication (and in some cases accusation) around DU that YOU SHOULD FEEL SHAME.

And it bothers me very much. I didn't know DU was so far to the right on this topic.

[idwiyo]

86. My experience was pure relief too.

Never mind feeling happy that I have a choice, that I am free to do as pleased, that I don't have to deal with it even one more day than I absolutely have to.

Edit to add: I was at the clinic within less than an hour after realising that I was late. Thankfully, vacuum extraction before 8 weeks was on demand. It would have driven me insane to wait even a day. /shudder

[HERVEPA]

2. I am strongly pro-choice and escort at Planned Parenthood, but no,

it is not like any other condition. There is a fetus which would become a human life if not aborted. Not a reason not to abort, but the comparison is ridiculous.

[Humanist_Activist]

6. With today's technology, any cells from any human have to potential to...

bring about new human life, that doesn't make them special, why should a fetus be treated any differently unless the woman carrying it wants it treated differently?

[HERVEPA]

66. In abortions, some degree of differentiation has already occurred.

Again, I am totally pro-choice, but I totally reject your comparison.

[Humanist_Activist]

73. I don't see how that is relevant, nor why it would invalidate my comparison. n/t

[peace13]

8. If you do work as an escort you should know that not every abortion...

is caused by a viable fetus. Let's be clear here, some of these procedures are due to babies that will not survive after birth. Some are already dead before the procedure. I think this is very important to note.

[HERVEPA]

64. Of course. (It's volunteer, by the way).

[rug]

11. +10

[HockeyMom]

80. Having had an ectopic and a 3 year old at the time

Yes, there is a difference. That 5 week old embryo was a POTENTIAL life, my 3 year old WAS a living, breathing, talking human being. Those people in that christian hospital could not see the difference either. I would die saving my born daughter, but I would not for a 5 week old embryo.

The already born, whether child or adult, take preference over the unborn in my book.

[idwiyo]

92. 'Every sperm is sacred' type of bullshit. It IS like any other medical condition to me.

Do you have a problem with that? Or were you speaking for yourself only?

BTW, with opinion like yours, I wouldn't let you anywhere near women who need escort to a clinic. They need to be protected from that kind of RW shit.

[Egnever]

3. Sorry but no

It is rarely a necessity.

I am glad it is legally available and would not like to see it taken away. But it is not a necessity hardly ever. It is a choice and one women should be able to make freely and safely.

[Humanist_Activist]

4. It is always a necessity for the woman who chooses it to be. n/t

[Egnever]

7. Sorry but no it is always a choice

except in the rare occasion where the health of the woman is in danger.

There is always the option to bring it to term. Necessity implies there are no other options.

[Humanist_Activist]

9. I was putting it in context, and there are more than one treatment option for many other...

medical conditions as well, with risks and benefits to be assessed, so choices to be made.

I don't see how pregnancy is any different than treating any other medical condition, with options and choices that are to be assessed on an individual level, with advice from a doctor, and no one else.

[Egnever]

12. They are different because

Everyone agrees that things such as cancer or heart blockages are life threatening and need to be treated. Everyone does not agree that a pregnancy is a condition that needs to be fixed.

I have no argument with the idea that it should be assessed and decided on an individual level.

The idea that it is a necessity though, does not fly.

[Humanist_Activist]

14. So, in your world, pregnancy isn't a medical condition at all? n/t

[Egnever]

18. No, in my world abortion is not a necessity

if it was the human race would have ceased to exist long ago.

[Humanist_Activist]

22. As I said, its a necessity for those who feel it is a necessity...

if you want to go into a semantics argument fine, but think of it this way, a pregnancy happens, its the underlying condition, its also an acute condition, temporary, but with some potential health repercussions and risks that can happen later(to your body, lifestyle changes are immeasurable). There are, in general, two ways to treat it, let it run its course, or terminate it early.

How is this any different than, for example, taking Tamiflu to end the flu early? Chances are, if you are a relatively healthy person, you can fight off the infection, let it run its course, but also be miserable and have some extended side effects and consequences to that, or take tamiflu and nip the infection in the bud, so to speak. Of course, you would, with your doctor, weight the benefits and risks of both, and then make a choice. What is the difference?

[Egnever]

44. I dont dissagree with that

I disagree with the wording of your op.

Further posts in this thread have clarified your intent and I withdraw my disagreement.

[Sheldon Cooper]

51. The human race would have ceased to exist long ago if abortions were a

necessity? What?

[el_bryanto]

55. I think the implication is that if Abortions were a necessity - every woman would have an abortion

each time they became pregnant and there would be no babies born.

It seems like hyperbole to me.

Bryant

[idwiyo]

90. It is a necessity for every woman who thinks it is so.

[4 t 4]

62. are you a male ? if you are you have no validity in this-none!

[HERVEPA]

68. That's bullshit.

Anyone can have an opinion on the subject, whether a male or female. It is the pregnant woman's choice of course.

[Lars39]

10. And as usual women's mental health, wants and dreams are casually discarded.

[Egnever]

13. oooho strawmen!

Awesome!

[Lars39]

23. Really? Is a woman's brain somehow disconnected from her body?

Huh, learn something new everyday.

[polly7]

24. Why is that a strawman? nt.

[Egnever]

27. Oh I don't know

maybe because there was never a post on this thread about denying any of those things?

A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] The misrepresentation can be intentional or accidental. It is possible to unintentionally misrepresent an opponent's argument by failing to understand it in the first place and honestly communicating what one (wrongly) thinks is the actual argument. This can lead to opposition believing the creation of a straw man argument to be intended, when it may or may not be.


Pretty much fits the definition perfectly.

[Lars39]

33. You're a forced birther if you discount women's mental health as a reason for abortion.

You can sally your strawman all you want, denying a woman an abortion because she does not want to be pregnant makes you a forced--birther.

[Egnever]

39. More strawman garbage

No where in this thread do I ever advocate removing a womans ability to have an abortion.

My argument is a simple one despite your apparent inability to grasp it.

Abortion is not a necessity it is a choice. Period full stop.

I am glad women have the choice.

[polly7]

41. Do you really believe women who have abortions don't

see it as something necessary ..... for their own well-being - which naturally includes their mental health and ability to pursue life goals? I guess I'm not understanding you.

[Lars39]

43. Sally forth,polly7!

Kick that straw!

[Egnever]

45. Clearly you are just going to continue to try to put words in my mouth

I couldn't have put it any clearer for you.

Enjoy whatever blather you chose to pretend i said with this post and have a nice day

[polly7]

49. No, I wasn't trying to do that at all.

Just trying to understand, and I admit, I confuse myself at times ... On one hand, abortion shouldn't have to be seen as a necessity, simply because it is a right and a choice that women, hopefully, always will have .... on the other, women don't choose abortion unless they see it as necessary, for reasons that are their own. Thankfully, it's a personal decision that shouldn't be affected in any way by anyone else's blather. You have a nice day too.

[polly7]

31. Some don't see carrying a child to term as an option at all.

My sister wouldn't be here today if she'd been forced to do it at 16, she'd been stocking up on pills for weeks. Unwanted/unplanned pregnancies can destroy lives very easily. The only option that matters is that the woman has the choice to do what is best for her ... and only she (and her doctor, in cases of fetal abnormality or non-viability) knows what that is.

[Egnever]

35. I have no problem with that

My problem lies in the idea that abortion is a necessity. It is a choice and I am glad your sister was able to make the choice that was best for her.

We seriously considered an abortion for our third pregnancy, it was a complete fluke and should not have happened. We had already made financial decisions based on two children that would be very difficult to overcome. In the end we decided not to abort but had we gone the other way I would have been glad that the option was there.

Some days I wonder if we made the right choice.

Once again I am glad the choice was available for your sister.

[Warpy]

37. So is gallbladder surgery

Obviously you know nothing about the very real threat to health and life pregnancy exposes a woman to.

[idwiyo]

91. Bollocks! It is a necessity if a woman decided she is not willing to play "incubator with legs" game

[HERVEPA]

67. Untrue

May be very much the right thing, but necessity is not the right word.

[PeaceNikki]

19. It's a necessity when a woman no longer wants to be pregnant.

[Egnever]

25. No

It's an option, and should remain so.

[PeaceNikki]

28. Yes, it is. If a woman no longer wants to be pregnant, that is the only option.

[jeff47]

38. So what's your alternative for women who want to no longer be pregnant?

If it's only "an option", you must have another.

[PeaceNikki]

17. Abortion: a moral & positive choice that liberates women, saves lives, & protects families

damn straight

[cbdo2007]

46. The "choice" may be liberating but the outcome is the exact opposite.

[idwiyo]

69. It's extremely safe procedure and it saves countless millions of women from dying

of complications from back-alley abortions.

[Niceguy1]

50. the outcome arent always positive

that's why birth control and the education to use it correctly should be readily available to reduce the amount of sbortions performed

[idwiyo]

71. Maybe you should start with changing the way you talk about abortion. Remove the stigma, and watch

how many more women will stop feeing depressed. By repeating same old bullshit how "abortion is emotionally damaging" does a hell of a lot of damage to women who listen to it every day.

"You" means both generic and personal.

[Niceguy1]

74. I think that

Good, affordable birthcontrol is a more effective route. I think it is better to reduce the demand.

[idwiyo]

79. That has what to do with stigmatising abortion, and damage it does to women as a result?

NOTHING! NADA! ZERO!

So, how about you stop talking about abortion like it's it's something horrible and to be ashamed about. Stop spreading bullshit how "damaging" it is to women, how they out to feel "depressed", and any such bullshit.

How about you do that, and advocate for easy and free access to BC. Don't forget to advocate for BC pill for man too, as none exist at the moment.

You is both personal and generic.

[Niceguy1]

82. it is alaays better

To advocate for the less invasive proceedure to reduce the need for a surgical one.

[idwiyo]

84. That has what to do with stigmatising abortion, and damage it does to women as a result?

NOTHING! NADA! ZERO!

So, how about you stop talking about abortion like it's it's something horrible and to be ashamed about. Stop spreading bullshit how "damaging" it is to women, how they out to feel "depressed", and any such bullshit.

How about you do that, and advocate for easy and free access to BC. Don't forget to advocate for BC pill for man too, as none exist at the moment.

You is both personal and generic.

There, I highlighted important parts, in case you didn't get it first time.

Unless you are admitting that you want that stigma to remain, and you want women who have abortions to suffer because of it.

Which one is it?

[Niceguy1]

87. I don't talk about a bortion in that way

. ...

[SidDithers]

48. DU rec...

Well said.

Sid

[YarnAddict]

52. Um, no

No one chooses to have open heart surgery if there is ANY other choice. Open heart surgery generally saves your life and/or improves the quality of it in a way that overcomes the pain, the debilitation, etc. of surgery.

Most abortions are elective. There is an alternative that does not result in the death of the patient, or in disability. the comparison is not only false, but insulting and ridiculous.

[PeaceNikki]

53. The health risks of carrying to term and delivery are much greater thank early termination.

[Humanist_Activist]

54. You seem to be unaware of the risks and complications associated with pregnancy...

either by simply being uninformed or willfully uninformed, I advise you educate yourself on this issue before commenting on it further.

[Sheldon Cooper]

57. You really should google maternal death rates.

And then be embarrassed by the astonishing level of ignorance in your post.

[gollygee]

70. Compare stats

Pregnancy and birth are more dangerous than abortion. The choice isn't between abortion and no risk. It's between the risk of abortion (very low) and the risk of pregnancy and childbirth (much higher.)

[idwiyo]

72. What "death of a patient"? Woman is The Patient. Period. Rest of it is forced-birthers crap!

I am getting really sick and tired of right-wing anti-choice bullshit.

[gollygee]

77. Oh, I thought that poster was talking about the woman

That there was a high chance of death when you have an abortion. And I thought, No there isn't! There's a much higher chance of death from pregnancy and birth.

But the statement was more anti-choice than I thought.

[idwiyo]

83. I am not buying that anyone can be so ignorant. Either way this post is pure RW anti-choice BS

[YarnAddict]

96. Yes, I was talking about the woman as the patient.

If a patient doesn't have open heart surgery, the result is usually an early death, following progressive debilitation.

If a woman doesn't have an elective abortion, the result (to her) is NOT usually death.

I maintain that the comparison is ridiculous.

[idwiyo]

98. Abortion is safer than pregnancy, that's a fact.

Never mind health complications associated with any pregnancy, due and post.

What's your point?

[Sheldon Cooper]

99. I maintain that your point is based in ignorance.

Google maternal death rates. Please.

[REP]

60. True.

And, just like open heart surgery, some people will have very emotional reactions to it while most will not.

Strangers are less likely to attempt to shame heart surgery patients who didn't have a strong emotional reaction to their procedure, though.

[idwiyo]

65. Thank you! This girl agrees with you 100%. Please, ignore "only man can say something like that" BS

[cali]

95. No, it's not.