The Dutch: Traditional, or Racist?

[MADem]

I'm sorry--I vote racist on this shit. I think it's appalling that they still trot this guy out in the 21st Century.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/12/us-dutch-blackpete-idUSBRE9AB0LV20131112

(Reuters) - The Dutch see themselves as tolerant pragmatists, especially adaptable if social harmony or commercial interests demand it.

But that self-image has taken a battering in recent weeks as a growing chorus of voices inside and outside the country protest against a Christmas tradition that many Dutch see as harmless fun but critics say is racist.

According to the folklore, Saint Nicholas arrives in the Netherlands in mid-November accompanied by his servant Black Pete - a part usually played by a white man in "blackface" with a curly wig and large, red-painted mouth.

Now the Dutch are being forced to confront the possibility that their enormously popular Christmas tradition might point to a latent racism which many thought was anathema to their culture......"We've lied to ourselves about our tolerance for so long that we don't recognize discrimination anymore," he said. "There has been structural exclusion of minorities for decades."

He said the children of the many immigrants to the Netherlands were becoming increasingly vocal about confronting signs of racism that their parents may have chosen to ignore......

[antiquie]

1. They are coming around (s l o w l y)

Netherlands apology for Indonesia 1940s killings

Dutch ambassador to Indonesia Tjeerd de Zwaan apologised for the "excesses committed by Dutch forces" between 1945 and Indonesia's independence in 1949.

A UN report at the time condemned the killings as deliberate and ruthless.

"Sometimes it is very important to be able to look back in order to be able to look one another straight in the eyes and be able to move forward together - and that of course is what this public apology and ceremony is all about," he said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24060913

[Nye Bevan]

2. I don't think we should necessarily impose US standards on other cultures.

For example, traveling in Taiwan years ago I was shocked to see a huge illuminated swastika. But as it turned out, and which I was not aware of at the time, the swastika is some kind of Eastern religious symbol that predates the Nazis. So I would not force them to remove it.

Also, the Hindus don't like that we eat beef. We don't like that the Koreans eat dog, etc. When a country has no history of slavery and Jim Crow laws perhaps we should leave their traditions alone.

[JustAnotherGen]

4. Actually they were a part of the slave trade to the Americas

Netherlands[edit]Although slavery was illegal inside the Netherlands it flourished in the Dutch Empire, and helped support the economy.[89] By 1650 the Dutch had the pre-eminent slave trade in Europe.[90] They were overtaken by Britain around 1700.[citation needed] As of 1778, it was estimated that the Dutch were shipping approximately 6,000 Africans for enslavement in the Dutch West Indies.[91] The Dutch shipped about 550,000 African slaves across the Atlantic, about 75,000 of whom died on board before reaching their destinations. From 1596 to 1829, the Dutch traders sold 250,000 slaves in the Dutch Guianas, 142,000 in the Dutch Caribbean islands, and 28,000 in Dutch Brazil.[92] In addition, tens of thousands of slaves, mostly from India and some from Africa, were carried to the Dutch East Indies.[93]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery#Netherlands

We tend to let European countries off on both slavery and the horrific treatment of Native Americans in the Americas (North, Central, South, Caribbean) . . . but they started it.

That said - We have plenty of our own racism towards us black folks to go around right here in America that needs to be addressed. I've been treated better in the Netherlands as a lone black female walking around than I have at Summit Mall in NJ. And that's a fact.

[MADem]

17. I think an awareness on a national level of the realities of racism is a first step.

We sure as hell have a ways to go, but we do have that "awareness" working.

You're right about those guys "starting it." Heck, they had it down to a science centuries before John Hancock put his, er, John Hancock on the Declaration of Independence!

I find the pushback on this "cultural tradition," though, problematic. It's true that they aren't alone in Europe-there are lots of rightwing groups (France, Italy, e.g.) that pound the racist drum incessantly.

Europe never had to deal with racism in the past because their societies were more homogeneous. People who were of different races and ethnicities were rare, and welcomed, feted, even, precisely because they WERE rare--they had a certain cachet. When people who were "different" started becoming common, particularly in the 2nd half of the 20th Century onward, though, they weren't quite so loved or welcomed--they started to be viewed as competitors for finite resources, and resented. So much for Kumbayah!

[JustAnotherGen]

22. A further step on this

They did impose racist policies and behavior - but they had the avvdantage of the being the away team. When you look at how they damaged forever Africa, Asia, SE Asia, etc. etc. - they did it without staining their 'home territory' with the hateful hate.

Now - as my husband (Italian citizen) likes to point out "our chickens are coming home to roost!" And he thinks well - that might be a good thing. It's always been there - it just hasn't been 'in country'.

[MADem]

25. Ain't that the truth! nt

[BainsBane]

35. Yes, and the first ship that brought Africans to the English N American

colonies as "cargo" in 1614 was a Dutch ship. The Dutch profited immensely from slavery and the slave trade.

[Jamaal510]

44. My sister

"I've been treated better in the Netherlands as a lone black female walking around than I have at Summit Mall in NJ. And that's a fact."

had brought up a related point a while ago, when I showed her a map of racist tweets conducted by HSU:
http://users.humboldt.edu/mstephens/hate/hate_map.html
In a nutshell, she said that there seems to be a pattern that there is less racism towards Blacks in areas where not many of us are. For instance, there were hardly any spots on the map of racist tweets in states such as Maine (when you zoom in). Also, I can't speak for others, but I rarely hear anything much in the news about animosity towards us in countries where there are hardly any people of African descent, in general. I just thought that was an interesting tidbit.

[yardwork]

58. The Dutch were also early colonizers if Africa

Lots of extreme racism in Dutch history. That's where this tradition comes from and it's good that the Dutch are recognizing it.

[MADem]

7. This is a little different than a symbol that the Nazis stole and used for their own purposes.

The swastika predates Nazis by centuries. It's usually pretty easy to determine the context of the use of the symbol. It's not rocket science.

And this issue isn't about dietary habits--this is about denigrating human beings and calling it "cultural." We aren't talking about cows here, we're talking about PEOPLE.

You seriously are calling this a "tradition" that should be left alone?

You might want to rethink that POV. You might also want to research the Dutch role in transporting slaves to the new world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery#Netherlands

[Nye Bevan]

19. Years ago my son, who idolized Michael Jordan, wanted to be his hero for Halloween.

And as part of this he wanted to darken his face. I had to gently explain to him why this was not a good idea. Now, I don't think my son was displaying inherently racist tendencies; he simply was unaware of the history and implications of blackface. Yes, from a US-centric point of view blackface is horribly racist and offensive, but this is not necessarily the case in other cultures. The BBC, for example, was broadcasting "minstrel" shows (with blackface) as recently as the 1980s. I'm not necessarily saying that this tradition should continue, but I certainly don't look at it in the same light as incidents such as the person who blacked up to be Trayvon Martin on Halloween.

[MADem]

29. I don't think the Dutch are stupid, though--and they aren't little kids, either.

There's got to be a point in time where you look at something and get that feeling down in your gut that this shit is just wrong. When I was a little kid, when we had tee vee, we'd occasionally see a Charlie Chan (the Chinese detective) film on the Saturday matinee, or whatever. Charlie was played by a white dude by the name of Sidney Toler--he did the stupid "accent" and wore make up to make himself look Chinese-ish, but he didn't further forsake Charlie's dignity (though other characters certainly did make Chinese people look like shrieking fools with pigtails). His son, too, was a total clown. Charlie, the films inferred, was unique in his gravitas, not "evil" like some, but "inscrutable." A lot of "Ancient Chinese Secret" vibe going on there.

As I grew up, and started to become aware that people who didn't look like me or my family could sometimes be rude, nasty or otherwise hateful towards us, based solely on appearances, I started to feel bad about watching those movies. I knew a few Chinese people by then, and they weren't running around screaming with a hatchet and mugging for the camera. By the time I was 12 I couldn't look at those things any more. It wasn't any big "lesson" I got, it was just a vague sense that this sort of characterization was unfair. It made me uneasy.

[treestar]

33. In the US it would definitely be racist

Given the US's history. Not a matter of US standards, but of just where are they coming from with this?

[Laelth]

3. The United States is the LEAST racist nation on Earth.

I don't have any scientific study to verify this claim, but it is true in my experience. We fought a war over racism in the middle of the 19th century. We have laws on the books to address racism. Racism is something we talk about--and we take this fact for granted. In my experience, racism is not often discussed in other countries. I am quite proud of my country on this issue. Racism is real in the US, and we are dealing with it.

Other nations are not so advanced in this regard. They're just starting to talk about racism. My instinct is to cut them some slack on this issue while continuing to gently push for racial equality.



-Laelth

[4Q2u2]

6. Original material from WAPO

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2013/05/the_worlds_most_and_least_racist_countries.html


I would say though that if the Root was confident in referencing it, I tend to say it has some credence.

[MADem]

11. Interesting map. I think their work is incomplete, but it certainly is a starting point. nt

[4Q2u2]

13. Good Info

As you know these things can be shaped by what questions are asked and how they are asked, but having some data to later reference to a similar survey is how one can drill down and hopefully find the truth.

I saw an article last year on Swartie Pete and the pictures creeped me out. I think my children would probably run the other direction if they ever saw such a strange interpretation of Santa and his Elves.

[pampango]

14. Nice link. "Anglo and Latin countries most tolerant" except for Venezuela and Dominican Republic.

Anglo and Latin countries most tolerant. People in the survey were most likely to embrace a racially diverse neighbor in the United Kingdom and its Anglo former colonies (the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and in Latin America. The only real exceptions were oil-rich Venezuela, where income inequality sometimes breaks along racial lines, and the Dominican Republic, perhaps because of its adjacency to troubled Haiti. Scandinavian countries also scored high.

[4Q2u2]

8. Forgot to add this in the answer

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022854223

[Laelth]

9. Excellent.

I hadn't seen that study, but it confirms what I already intuited. Bookmarking. Thanks.

-Laelth

[Spider Jerusalem]

21. No, the US fought a war over southern secession.

Racism? Not so much. "Least racist country on earth"? I don't think so; not when race is treated as a proxy for class, not when you have the kind of disparity in arrests and sentencing that exists in the US criminal justice system, not when racial intolerance forms part of the unspoken reason for broad support on the political right for defunding the social safety net ("I don't want my tax dollars going to those people&quot .

[Laelth]

28. Sigh. We're not perfect by any means.

We still have a lot of work to do regarding racism. That I freely admit.

I still think we're less racist than any other nation on Earth. Perhaps your travels to foreign countries have given you a different experience of the world. If so, I'd love to hear about it.

-Laelth

[kwassa]

54. US is the least racist on Earth? Back that one up. It is absurd.

Most Americans don't talk about race seriously, and the Civil War did not resolve our problem with racism.

[Laelth]

57. See links and studies above.

I didn't say we're perfect on this issue, but, from my experience, we are ahead of the rest of the world. If your foreign travels have shown you something different, I'd love to hear about it.

-Laelth

[kwassa]

59. You made a giant sweeping statement that you really can't substantiate.

The study is pretty unconvincing, and yes, I read it all the way through. There is all types of bias in the sense that we have a halo effect; people telling the surveyor what they think is socially acceptable, and what the surveyor wants to hear. It is socially unacceptable to be publicly racist in the US; this does nothing to prevent covert racism. There are many whites who don't want to live near minorities, and white flight is still a reality. They would tell the interviewer something quite different, of course.

Even according to that study that I see as flawed doesn't make us the least racist, only more tolerant than some others. Racism is defined quite differently in different societies, I might point out; our form of racism is unique to the United States. Notions of color and race are not universal in the world, and don't exactly correspond with each other, nor does the treatment of those perceived as different.

For starters, Canada is less racist than we are. They don't have the lingering effects of hundreds of years of segregation and slavery that we still have. None of the Northern European nations are as racist as we are. Prominent African-Americans used to frequently move to France, where their talents were appreciated, and they were treated as individuals.
Most of South America, particularly Brazil, has long been comfortable with a racially-mixed society.

The idea that Pakistan is supposedly racially tolerant is cold comfort in light of the massive intolerance of those less fundamental in their religious views or ethnic background, as seen in terrorism and bombings.

I think you are naive about the level of racism in the US today.

[Laelth]

62. I think you're naive about racism in the rest of the world.

Racism is real. It has not gone away, but we're dealing with it in the United States--you know, talking about it, not sweeping it under the rug. We have made great progress on this issue, and I have every reason to believe we will continue to do so.



-Laelth

[kwassa]

63. You could try substantiating your claim.

Until you can provide some evidence, other than this single study, you really have not supported your opinion in the slightest.

Truth of the matter; much of the legacy of racism is not being dealt with.

What is your life experience that tells you so much about race? How many black people are in your life?

[Laelth]

64. I have represented African-Americans in lawsuits under the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

I live in a predominately African-American, inner-city neighborhood. I live in a majority African-American city.

I can't prove my claim beyond my knowledge of the law (here and in other countries) on this issue and my experience of people I have met traveling outside this country. It appears that no amount of evidence I can give you will suffice. I will say this, however. You haven't provided any evidence that the United States is not the least racist nation on Earth. In terms of evidence, I at least have my anecdotes and my knowledge of the law.



-Laelth

[kwassa]

66. No amount of evidence will suffice? Why don't you try me?

You have yet to provide evidence.

I would point out the obvious, that you made the assertion that the US is the least racist nation on earth, it is your assertion to prove, not mine to disprove. It is a rather massive, world-wide assertion, at that.

I would suggest you sit down with some of the black people around you and talk with them about how racism affects their lives. They might enlighten you a bit.

There is often a big gap between what the law states, and what actually happens in society. Defacto segregation in schools and housing is common, not rare, all a result of our racist history, and racist government policies. The policies have changed, but have not altered these legacies in a substantive way. Look around you at that inner city; how much real opportunity is there? How limited are the job and life prospects for those minorities that live there? What opportunity for mobility do they really have?

[Laelth]

67. Your continued attacks on the credibility and knowledge of an ally are counterproductive.

Visit foreign countries and learn something for yourself. There is obviously nothing I can teach you.

-Laelth

[kwassa]

68. I have visited foreign countries. What is your point?

[Laelth]

65. This is about a former client of mine, fyi.

http://blanksslate.blogspot.com/2007/11/because-whites-shit-dont-stink.html

This too:

http://field-negro.blogspot.com/2007/11/can-you-niggers-hold-it-just-little.html#.Uo-JJCe_KDY

-Laelth

[pampango]

5. "11 percent of the population is foreign-born" - about the same as the US.

Wealthy and fast-growing in the years after World War Two, the Netherlands was a major destination for economic migrants from southern Europe, Turkey and Morocco in the 1950s and 1960s. In 2010, around 11 percent of the population was foreign-born, according to Eurostat. Most have acquired Dutch citizenship, a sign of the country's successful integration policies.

Out of a population of around 16 million people, more than 3.5 million are foreign-born Dutch citizens or the children of non-Dutch immigrants, according to the official statistics agency. The largest immigrant populations include those from Turkey, the former Dutch colony of Suriname and Morocco.

"Many Dutch people feel fundamentally threatened," said Laurens Buijs, a sociologist at the University of Amsterdam. "As if they feel Brussels, or the UN, want to take away who we are, our identity."

Such fears have boosted support for Geert Wilders, the populist anti-Islam politician who wants to stop immigration by Muslims as well as eastern Europeans, and wants the Netherlands to leave the euro and claw back powers from Brussels. He has even set up a website where people could file complaints about eastern Europeans.

There seems to be a bit of 'tea partyness' in most countries. "Many Dutch feel ..." that the EU "or the UN, want to take away who we are, our identity." Sounds like our tea party types who believe they are losing the country that they have always known. Like our TP'ers some Dutch have turned to right-wing, anti-immigrant populism to restore the past.

[Liberal_in_LA]

10. picture of 'black pete'

They'll be embarrassed that they embraced this racist crap in a few years

[Blue_Tires]

12. I've always loved this take on it:

[msanthrope]

15. Beat me to it! nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

18. That's what immediately came to mind.

One of my favorite pieces by him. It had me laughing hysterically at times.

[MADem]

26. How the hell did I miss that! It's so hilarious because it's true! nt

[MadrasT]

34. One of my favorites!

That was the first thing I thought of when I read the OP.

[CBGLuthier]

16. I am going to meet (for the 1st time) my Dutch future brother in law in two hours, I will ask him.

Should make for some fun lunch time conversation. Of course come next week with all of the attendant stupidity and mythologizing about native american and early settler relationships I would expect to be in for some uncomfortable discussion myself.

There is an infinite supply of motes.

[mainer]

20. Be careful what you say! Dutch people are sensitive about Black Pete

since they grew up with him as part of their childhood traditions. They can't step back far enough to see the bigger picture, they only see that outsiders are trying to take away one of their favorite childhood memories.

[MADem]

27. Well, I wouldn't lump "all" the Dutch in that pile.

Surely some of them have to realize that this shit is just offensive....Santa, former Turkish Bishop, arrives in the Netherlands with his six to eight slaves, errrrrr, black companions, and they will either put candy in your shoes or kick the shit out of you and beat you with a switch!

Maybe it's time they switched it up, and went to elves...?

[mainer]

31. My family is Dutch

and even though they are very liberal (with gay and non-white family members) they also love their old traditions. They're fully aware that Sinterklaas was the Bishop of Myra (a Turk), but they once told me that Black Pete was actually a Moor from Spain.

The Dutch get annoyed if you tell them they have to give up anything, including their god-awful licorice and their high-sugar diet.

[MADem]

36. How do the non-white family members feel about the whole slave/Moor business?

Are they Dutch, too?

[mainer]

42. one non-white member is from Surinam

She's more offended by the horrible Dutch history in Surinam, and not by Black Pete in particular.
Other nonwhite member is Asian, so just shrugs.
Two gay family members -- not relevant to them.

All of them celebrate Sinterklaas, and while some think the idea of Black Pete is weird, they also seem to think he's a Moor.

[MADem]

46. Well, all a "Moor" is, is a dark skinned Muslim person, from North Africa.

They got that dark skin from their African roots. In Spain, when you say 'moro' you mean black, and it's not always a compliment. I think there are racial as well as religious overtones to that denigration.

It doesn't really make sense that a Muslim would be the "friend" (upgraded from slave) to a retired Turkish bishop celebrating a Christian holiday!! All the more reason to unload the black/Moorish "posse" that beats up the bad kids!

"Moorish" people came with the Islamic surge into Europe (most people don't realize that the Muslims got all the way to Germany before they were pushed back). They did manage to achieve quite the foothold in Spain, and this is reflected in the "Moorish" architecture.

Years ago, the Arab or Berber aspect of Moorish heritage may have offered a point of differentiation, but there is no denying the African heritage of those who were called "Moors" back in the old days.

[MADem]

30. Come back and let us know what he has to say, if you get a chance to

broach the subject!

Here's some advance material for your inevitable Thanksgiving (or "You're Welcome&quot discussions:

http://fusion.net/culture/story/native-americans-laugh-thanksgiving-11279

[gollygee]

23. The only Dutch I know are West Michigan Dutch

But I thought the Dutch who remained in the Netherlands were the liberal ones, and the conservative ones moved here, so I thought the Dutch there would be more open minded.

[NightWatcher]

24. Zwarte Pete will end up going along the way of Brer Rabbit

Sure, it's an old tradition, but it's slowly going away.

There's nothing more fun than Amsterdam at Christmas. Wait, maybe New Years is.

[treestar]

32. If they started it before they had an African Immigrants

Then it might be harmless. Where did they get the idea and how long has it been going on?

Probably best to listen to both sides of their debate, internally just as to them and learn the history of this thing.

But the more immigrants they have who become citizens, the more likely this is to be questioned and go away.

[MADem]

39. It's been going on for WAAAAAAY longer than they had any substantial immigration.

That doesn't matter, though--old "traditions" can most certainly be racist. Look at the Redskins--that shit is old, and "traditional," and it's just wrong.

Get a load of some of these old advertisements (some are just ) -- age doesn't inoculate them:

http://owni.eu/2011/03/12/racism-in-advertising-50-shocking-examples/

[Egalitarian Thug]

37. Yes.

The world is not American.

We seem to forget this simple fact almost instantly whenever it is reintroduced to us, so I thought pointing it out would be appropriate here.

[MADem]

40. Who said the world was American? Not really sure what point you're making.

Are you suggesting this kind of crap is "ok" because it's not happening in USA?

I was raised outside of America, and have spent at least half my life "offshore," so believe me, I am quite aware that the world is not American.

[Egalitarian Thug]

43. The point is exactly what was written. It is not 'OK' or 'not OK', it is Holland and up to the Dutch

to make their decisions, not hypocritically outraged Americans.

We can't even bring ourselves to admit that all people are people and as such possess the inalienable rights of humanity.

[MADem]

45. How about the people who are offended by their "traditions?" You're saying they need to shut up?

Go to the back of the bus? Be quiet--not express an opinion?

What, exactly, are you saying?

I just don't quite get how you can go on about the "inalienable rights of humanity" while you defend the denigration/objectification of one sector of humanity based on skin color...?

What a hot mess!

I suppose it's the Russians' business how they want to treat gay people, too, then? Since we're not Russian, it's up to the Russians to make their decisions, not hypocritically outraged Americans...to use your very words?

[Egalitarian Thug]

49. There is no right to being free from offense (including you NoCal). I'm not defending their

mythical character nor am I attacking it because, and here's the point again, it's none of my business nor yours nor ours.

The Japanese hate the Chinese and make life very hard for the Chinese in Japan, is it incumbent on us to "do something" about Japan? Was the fact that the Afghans treat women worse than dogs a valid justification for the war? And what about the Russians, is it our job to tell them what to do when we have vast areas of this nation that would execute homosexuals simply for being homosexual if they could?

What are the limits of your principles regard the conduct of others? IOW, just how far does your hypocrisy extend, and how much of you, yourself are you willing to sacrifice to end these practices?

[MADem]

50. I could not disagree with you more. I think your views are really strange, in fact.

Lines on a map can and do change. When you use the boundaries of nations as an "excuse" to not give a shit about basic humanity, you've got a moral problem.

And why you think everyone must throw themselves on the bayonets of their enemies in order to be "allowed" to speak out in protest against this kind of thing, well, that's just some of the most bizarre "logic" I have ever encountered. If you're not ready to die for the cause, you're a hypocrite? Please.

If you are a HUMAN, and you see HUMAN SUFFERING, it's incumbent upon people to speak out and protest.

By your standard, though, everybody here had just better go home and shut up--if they're not ready to make "the ultimate, all encroaching, full-bore sacrifice" with regard to issues that concern them, they'd just best be quiet! That IS what you are saying, and it's just ... absurd.

Yours is one of the strangest posts I have ever read on DU. Unreal!

[pampango]

51. Well said, MADem. Very well said. n/t

[MADem]

53. Thank you. nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

60. Of course you couldn't, big surprise there. You're more than happy to tell everybody else

what they should do as long as it doesn't cost or inconvenience you personally.

[MADem]

61. That's an even stranger post than your last one. nt

[devils chaplain]

38. I'm reminded of the recent Thai "blackface" Dunkin' Donuts ad...

Other countries don't have the same history we do and thus understandably aren't quite as sensitive as we are to this sort of thing. Still, they should know better by now that it's very offensive to have a "blackface" servant as an iconic figure. Especially since the Dutch were involved in the slave trade themselves...

[MADem]

41. I started a thread on that awhile back.

A few people--not many--but a few--wondered what the problem was.

Couldn't understand my annoyance!

I was, as they say in UK, gobsmacked!

[Pretzel_Warrior]

47. David Sedaris has a hilarious piece about this regarding our Santa vs. europe's St. Nicholas.

[MADem]

48. It's upthread--I busted a gut laughing! nt

[malaise]

52. Many traditions are racist

and Black Pete is a perfect example

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

55. If I recall my college world history

correctly, and I think I do, the Dutch were the first slave traders in Africa.....

[MADem]

56. They were in the mix early on--they didn't have a huge share of the trade, but they

persisted at it for centuries.

[MADem]

71. They were early to the gate, as were the Portuguese.

Of course, well before they got involved in the practice, the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Ottomans, etc. all had their hand in. They did "African" business along the northern littorals, by and large, when they were on the continent, but it's a business that is as old as time. The Europeans like to look down their noses at America, but they were the ones selling "the goods" as it were. Rather like dealers looking down their noses at users....

Centuries from now they'll probably call those poor people in Chinese factories, housed miserably and working 12 hour days in shitty conditions with suicide nets, slaves. Just because ya get a paycheck doesn't necessarily make ya free!

[heaven05]

69. the dutch were huge slavers

please don't affront my intelligence with a statement,"the dutch are being forced to confront the possibility that their enormously popular christmas tradition, (of santa being accompanied by 'black pete) points to a latent racism which many thought was anathema to their culture".....they were huge slavers. Give me a break.

[MADem]

70. What is your problem?

My comments from nearly a month ago are quite clear, or did you miss the "I vote racist" bit at the top of the post?

Here, let me repeat them, since you missed them the first time round:

I'm sorry--I vote racist on this shit. I think it's appalling that they still trot this guy out in the 21st Century.


So please don't "affront my intelligence" with false inferences that I'm somehow sympathetic to this practice. Anyone with a third grade reading ability can see that I'm not.

"Give me a break," indeed.

[heaven05]

72. I know, old posting, sorry madem

my misguided and stupid rant. Apologies. My bad as the kids would say. Peace, I'm moving on. I have bad days this time of year especially....due to a personal loss with a christmas eve notification of that loss. Sorry for my misguided anger. Have a nice holiday.

[MADem]

73. No worries--have better days. Cheers! nt