I asked my "newly minted" 15-year-old son what he thought about the Philip Chism case...

[ScreamingMeemie]

I say newly minted because it was not but months ago that he was 14.

I am a mother (and all last year I mothered a 14-year-old boy), so I will be honest in that it is so very hard to read about that case, and all of the heinous and horrid details, and realize it was at the hands of a 14-year-old boy. It is very hard to come to the conclusion: Yes, this person deserves to go to prison for a long time.

So I asked my son. He is not perfect. He is a ball of conflicting emotions, raging hormones, anger, etc. I am watchful because he has had a traumatic event in his life, and I search for signs that all is not right in his world. Which those with teenagers know is hard to do because most teenagers are a cart full of drama ready to get rolling.

His reply?

"My God... How could somebody do that? I hope he's locked up for good..." Even though it may not seem like it, he (my son) does know right from wrong.

And that is the question. How could somebody do that? While we like to throw it around, we cannot yet say sociopath/psychopath. In fact, I really wish people would stop doing that. They use it for people they are arguing with, and they use it on cases like this. And a college psych class with no face to face experience with each case does not give you/me/us the ability to do this. So, I hope it stops. Because I stop reading when I see that word. We don't know why he did it.

What I do know? In my world, 14-year-olds know right from wrong when it comes to rape/murder unless something is seriously messed up in their lives...

A 14-year-old who commits an act this atrocious needs to be kept away from society for his own good as well as for community safety.

What breaks my heart? Given our current prison system, with the lack of rehabilitation and mental health care services, I'm quite sure that any breakthroughs that could be made with this young man, Philip Chism, are not going to happen. And that is a problem.

My fervent hope is that Ms. Ritzer's family can someday find peace...and smile again when they think of their daughter.

[kcr]

1. It's not about strictly knowing right from wrong, or whether he's a sociopath/psychopath

What if he was 10 years old? Or 8? 6? They've been known to kill, too. What is the cut off?

[XemaSab]

2. I'd say that relationship to the victim plays a role

If you're an 8-yo and you kill your dad, well you've only got one dad.

If you're an 8-yo and you kill your teacher... you're going to have a lot of teachers in your life.

[kcr]

3. What does the relationship to the victim have to do with with whether or not

a child is an adult? An 8 year old kills their dad? They're still a child. They kill their teacher? Still a child.

[XemaSab]

4. I was talking about likelihood of recidivism

(Sorry, I have a cold and I am slightly out of it.)

[kcr]

6. People think the likelihood of recidivism is higher than it really is

and that kids tried as jeuveniles will automatically be released without being evaluated only to go on to kill again, which is nonsense. At any rate I think it's sad how many otherwise good progressives are supporting trying kids as adults. It's a barbaric practice.

[ScreamingMeemie]

7. I was hopeful that you would come away from this thread not thinking in that manner.

This goes beyond being a good or bad progressive, and I'm not a "lock him up and throw away the key" person. These are not easy cases, no matter where one falls on the progressive scale.

[kcr]

9. Now who's jumping to conclusions?

ETA I'm sorry. I was actually thinking about another thread. I thought the plural would make that clear.

[ScreamingMeemie]

11. It wouldn't be me jumping to conclusions...

If I misunderstood you, I apologize. I tend not to get in people's faces these days.

[kcr]

12. It was a misunderstanding

I had just come from the other thread on this subject. I honestly was thinking of some of those posts. But I should have realized it would look like I was referring to you.

[ScreamingMeemie]

5. No it is not strictly about that...

Take the case in Michigan, where a 6-year-old (often left to his own devices because his mother was struggling to make ends meet and getting screwed over by the system left him in the care of others) Dedric Owens found a gun in the home of his (I think it was) uncle, took it to school, and shot a classmate--killing her. It was found that he, at 6, could not form intent.

My post was to explain (as best I could because I've been grappling with this) that a 14-year-old can form intent, in my opinion... unless there is a mental disability or illness at play.

I think these need to be looked at on a case by case basis for that reason, and I also think instead of just "locking them up and throwing away the key," we push for prison reform.

[kcr]

8. But the ability to form intent does not an adult make.

Some kids can form intent. In fact, most after a certain age probably can. But they're still not adults. We don't give them the ability to make adult decisions, even though they can form intent, for good reason. Even if we push for prison reform, and I think we should, we still need to treat minors differently because they're minors. That doesn't have to mean a slap on the wrist. I don't think the 14 year old being discussed should be out on the streets in 3 years, and he wouldn't, even if tried as a minor. No one is going to allow that to happen. The misconception that it would is what allows people to freak out and think that trying them as adults is the best way to go about it. And then there are people like my dad, who thought that 6 year old you mentioned should be tried as an adult. I remember that case well.

[ScreamingMeemie]

10. I think you and I are on the same page on this, kcr.

I don't think at all that he should be treated as an adult,--I guess I was absolutely horrid in drawing the connection that, although my son knows that rape/murder is wrong, he is still just a kid-- but we've got such a whack system there isn't a medium.

[kcr]

14. There should be a medium. And I almost wonder if that isn't by design.

And it's made worse by the fact we don't have much in place to help those with serious mental problems.