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[seabeyond]

This message was self-deleted by its author (seabeyond) on Sat Nov 23, 2013, 01:21 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[NCTraveler]

1. The mental gymnastics of some is nothing short of amazing. nt.

[Warpy]

54. It is the same thing they used to do to gay men

They used to make them sit through gay porn while they applied electrical shocks to their genitals every time they got aroused by it.

Yeah, it didn't work for them, either.

Moralists keep on trying it, though.

[seabeyond]

72. then you disagree that watching massive rape porn, getting off on it will stop rapist from raping?

i do not know the moralist that is suggesting this. all i know are a small group of men that suggest since rape numbers are down, and getting off on rape porn is up, that means rapist are not raping because they watch rape porn. a cure i tell you.

[msanthrope]

57. Indeed. nt

[Ichingcarpenter]

2. Wasn't that ''Clockwork Orange'' therapy?

The Ludovico technique is a fictional aversion therapy from the novel A Clockwork Orange administered by Dr. Brodsky with the approval of the UK Minister of the Interior.[1]

It involved forcing a patient to watch, through the use of specula to hold the eyes open, violent images for long periods of time, while under the effect of a nausea-inducing drug

. The aim of the therapy is to make the patient experience severe nausea when experiencing or even thinking about violence, thus creating an aversion to violent behaviour.


The therapy renders the protagonist of the novel, Alex, incapable of violence even in self-defense, and unable to touch a naked woman or think about having sexual intercourse.

He also develops a severe aversion to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, one of his favorite pieces of classical music, due to its use as a background score for the films during his treatment.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludovico_technique

[seabeyond]

3. then what would happen instead of adding the painful nausea, one experienced pleasure instead? nt

[rrneck]

20. Aversion therapy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aversion_therapy
Aversion therapy is still sometimes forced on children and teenagers who violate sex laws, and especially on individuals believed to have deviant sexual feelings. These youths have been forced to smell ammonia, describe humiliating scenarios, or engage in other uncomfortable acts, while looking at nude pictures, listening to audio tapes describing sexual situations, or describing their own fantasies. In order to measure sexual response, devices such as penile plethysmographs and vaginal photoplethysmographs are sometimes used, despite the controversies surrounding them.[citation needed]

In 1992, the Arizona Civil Liberties Union challenged the Phoenix Memorial Hospital for its use of these methods on children as young as 10. They were defended by the Association for the Treatment of Sexual Abusers. Since then, policies have usually discouraged the use of forced aversion therapy on children under 14.[17][18]

[seabeyond]

22. and when rewarded with pleasure watching violent rape/torture porn? nt

[rrneck]

23. It wouldn't work any better than aversion therapy.

Images don't work that way.

[seabeyond]

25. so, you do not agree that rape/torture porn stops rapist from raping? nt

[rrneck]

27. I don't understand your question.

Are you asserting that rape/torture porn would somehow stop a person from doing such things in real life?

[seabeyond]

29. i am not asserting this. men on the rape/torture thread are stating this. nt

[rrneck]

34. Ah. Images don't stop or start anybody from doing anything.

They don't work that way.

[seabeyond]

35. hm. so, fox news does not effect the watcher? it should be fine to feed our kids whatever media

we want? advertisement does not work?

[rrneck]

38. Not the way most people think it does.

All the media we consume affects us in the context of our lives. But the media is a small part of that context overall.

All of the concerns about porn or violence in the media are a type of literalism that assumes one interpretation and one possible response to that media. People view media and fit that media into the context of their lives. There is not a one to one correspondence between any deception of anything and a consequent action by the viewer. I wish there were, artmaking would be a helluva lot easier. I wish I could, say, make art so erotic that people would fall to the floor and fuck right there in the gallery. If I could do that, I could end all war by making art so peaceful that nobody would ever fight again. But I'm not that good an artist. Nor has there ever been an artist that good. Nor will there ever be.

In the end people consume media for a constellation of reasons that cannot be regulated, and to do so would be to deny them some of their most basic human rights.

[seabeyond]

39. true. what you and i see on fox will not be the same as another. so... rape/torture video.

wouldnt that leave open the door that a rapist is feeding off the rape/torture and not healing?

[rrneck]

40. There are police officers whose job it is

to view child porn in an effort to apprehend the perpetrators. I understand they find the job extremely difficult. I seriously doubt that viewing that much child porn turns them into pedophiles. Why is that? Is it some form of aversion therapy? Nope. They became cops before they got assigned, or allowed themselves to be assigned, to that duty. They have no prurient interest and nothing is going to change that.

White separatists typically consume drugs and alcohol before they brutalize people of color. They do so to facilitate the act because such substances reduce inhibition, not to create the desire to do so. It makes no more sense to try to regulate porn than alcohol to control anti social behavior.

[seabeyond]

41. i do not know that for a fact. i wonder seeing all that, how it does effect them. and effect them

it does. i would like a study on that because i have thought about it. and seeing behaviors manifest with our police officers, i do wonder. i think that would be a very interesting study. i am not so quick to decide that it has the effect you assume.

it is breaking it down in the brain.... fascinating topic.

police officers profession as a whole is the number one abuser of mate. you also have a lot of torture sex going on now a days. fro the mere purpose of humiliating.

[rrneck]

42. I'm not aware of anything in Christian theology that

advocates the abuse of children, and yet there is the whole Catholic church sex scandal. And that's why it's such a scandal, isn't it. Everything about the church is supposed to against such things and one would think that anyone like a priest who is immersed in that ideology so completely would never abuse a child. And yet it happened.

[seabeyond]

43. totally left field.... lol.

strike...

[rrneck]

44. Your OP is about immersion in information to control behaivor.

Years of theological training is about as immersive an experience as you can get and priests still molested kids.

[seabeyond]

45. have you read the old testament? but... i am not getting all into this cause it really goes way out

of bounds with what i am talking about. may be an interesting conversation. but, in the here and now, i am not intersted in delving in.

[rrneck]

48. That's understandable.

The church is understood, certainly by its members and by the bulk of humanity, as an authority regarding right human behavior. It has been considered by its followers as well as by most of humanity to be an important arbiter of right human behavior. And yet immersion in religious theology hasn't done a single thing to keep people from evil if they want to perpetrate it.

Are you suggesting a new theology? If constant reminders of hellfire and brimstone failed to make angels out of billions of primitive people who are significantly more susceptible to such things didn't work, how much luck do you think you're going to have now?

[seabeyond]

50. wtf? if you fail in exchange, do you just create stories? lol. really. wtf???

[rrneck]

56. Working from the premis of your OP. nt

[seabeyond]

58. no

[rrneck]

59. So

explain how excessive viewing of Fox news creates stupid Republicans, but excessive viewing of rape porn will keep people from becoming rapists.

[ismnotwasm]

89. Read "Angry White Men" by Michael Kimmel

It provides an an excellent analysis of class dysfunction from failed economics and false entitlement that leads people to Fox News, Rush, etc.

Excessive viewing of rape porn isn't gong to "treat" rapists. Being porn, it will focuses too much on the sexual and not enough on the gendered power dynamic that's at the core of rape.

In one prison, they attempt to treat pedophiles by giving them posters of attractive partially clad women to "redirect" their fantasies. That doesn't work either last I checked.

[Joel thakkar]

90. I agree with your one point

that excessive viewing of rape porn isn't going to "treat" rapist.

[rrneck]

238. I haven't read the book

but I've seen promotional excerpts of it, the latest in Huffington Post which helpfully presents of images of famous "angry white men" that are the usual targets of conflicting political ideology. It appears to be just another bit of political porn that I described elsewhere in this thread. No thanks.

The vast majority of porn is just cheap fantasy fulfillment, nothing more. It's not intended or required to focus on any particular ideological point of view. It's intended to make money.

[chervilant]

222. The wooooooosh you hear

is sb's point going completely over your head -- not that you can't get it. I suggest you reread her assertion. You just missed the point.

Also, have you read "Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television," by Mander? Have you seen the BBC series: "The Century of the Self"? A growing body of evidence supports awareness of how television alters our brains and how it's used to propagandize our population.

[rrneck]

235. Nope.

Last edited Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:06 PM - Edit history (1)

Why don't you summarize them and explain them. Can you do that?

The use of media is a collaborative effort between the artist and the viewer, or in this day and age between the producer and the consumer. They are, as with any other interaction between human beings, a relationship. All media alters our brains because interaction with everything in our environment alters our brains. Television alters our brains just as cave paintings altered our brains fifteen thousand years ago.

The "problem" with certain types of media consumption is not the media but the consumption. Or rather, over consumption. People have been exploring new and interesting ways to insert tab A into slot B since the advent of sex, and they will continue to do so. There is nothing that will halt, or even slow, human innovation in the field of fucking.

Have you read 1984? The dystopian society that Orwell describes is only possible through forced complete immersion in state propaganda. Hence the torture. The problem with seabeyond's OP is that she is proposing to "cure" people's perversions through forced immersion in the media that she feels is so destructive. Not only is it an oxymoron, it is a punitive solution that flies in the face not only of healthy cultural development but liberal ideology as well. The real question is how she came to those conclusions.

The relationship between Fox News and the people who consume it is purely commercial. They are telling people what they want to hear. It's a sort of highly focused banal wish fulfillment just like any other bad art no different from a Thomas Kincaid painting or a trashy romance novel. For such a commercial enterprise over consumption, or addiction, is profitable and total immersion is just another term for market domination.

Of course around here Fox News is always a ready example of all that is evil in the world but there are liberal ideology producers with the same business model - produce heroin content for market domination of peoples confirmation bias. Through it's role in the tremendous social advances in this country, feminism is an important part of liberal politics and liberal ideology. Such success has not gone unnoticed by those who would make a lucrative living telling people what they want to hear and over consumption of liberal ideology is just as pernicious as it's opposite number.

So many of the culture war issues that seem important are little more than the source of a lucrative revenue stream for people who make a living turning ideology into an addictive drug. There is no functional difference between the cheap wish fulfillment peddled by televised talking heads, hyperbolic polemicists, romance novelists or pornographers. It's all pornography one way or another.

[BainsBane]

161. like Fox news?

Complete bullshit. There is an extensive body of literature showing a causal connection between watching rape porn and an increased tendency to commit rape.

[rrneck]

231. I asked you for links to those studies

but it would be much better if you explained them yourself. Can you do that?

[BainsBane]

103. Studies show a causal link between watching violent porn and committing rape

Your supposition about what you think might happen is nothing but an empty excuse. For it to be aversion therapy, watchers would have to be under supervision of a therapist and shocked at the point of arousal. These guys are simply getting their rocks off.

[rrneck]

230. I asked you for links to those studies earlier. nt

[oldhippie]

243. But not for violent video games and violence?

We wouldn't believe that anyway.

[BainsBane]

244. I don't know

I wouldn't assume without looking at the literature. I would tend to think they would have an impact. Anything you spend a lot of time looking at is going to influence you.

[Nika]

36. And in the end of the book/movie he id cured of the Ludivico Technique

After an enemy tries to use his conditioning to get him to kill himself. It is one of my favorite books and films. I just never thought someone seriously would consider using elements of the Ludivico Technique in real life. This blows my mind.

[Ichingcarpenter]

220. The film was a masterpiece.

Stanley Kubrick was one of the first filmmakers (perhaps the first) to make a very bold use of extreme wide-angle lenses — so extreme that they cause barrel distortion. The first example that comes to mind is A Clockwork Orange, in which he used extreme wide-angle lenses in both dolly shots and handheld shots.

Again, the use of wide-angle lenses was not pointless and self-indulgent: rather, it was absolutely consistent with the tone of the film as a whole. Can you imagine “A Clockwork Orange” filmed with bland camerawork? Impressive camerawork has undeniable merits, particularly when it really serves to enhance the effect of a particular story. Stanley Kubrick’s use of lenses in “A Clockwork Orange”


Stanley was a professional photographer and the first director that came from that genre.

http://www.lavideofilmmaker.com/filmmaking/stanley-kubrick-film-techniques.html

[4 t 4]

65. That was the first thing I thought of...

[seabeyond]

71. major difference. in clock whatever there is a punishment. what men are suggesting is the reward

of pleasure to the images. huge difference, ya think?

[FreakinDJ]

4. Any kind of Violence is an "Automatic Buzz Kill below the Belt" for me

Don't have the faintest understanding of how anyone could get into this crap

[seabeyond]

5. me, either. thanks freakin. nt

[Decaffeinated]

6. So what?

What's the follow up action?

If it's to mutter quietly to yourself then fine. When you start infringing on other people and the choices they make because you "don't have the faintest understanding" then you cross the line in to evil busybody territory.

[seabeyond]

7. defend, defend, at all cost, .... defend. that has nothing to do with this OP

[Decaffeinated]

9. I think it just makes you uncomfortable because DJ was a bit too honest...

She doesn't get it so why would anyone else want it or complain when it is taken away?

[seabeyond]

10. firstly, i think dj is a he. secondly, again, your post has nothing to do with OP

[Decaffeinated]

11. Peachy for you...

I was responding to what was in DJs post.

[seabeyond]

14. and i was responding to what is in your posts.

[FreakinDJ]

13. I didn't tell anyone what to do - but I think they are Fucked Up in the Head

and unless you want to enforce some kind of "Rules" of what I think then it would be YOU who is doing the infringing

[lame54]

8. That damn Shakespeare - what does he know

[seabeyond]

12. ha. talk about the free speech argument. cause the poster says no thanks, he is the one addressed

about his lack of want to get off to violent rape. what a fuckin hoot. and again. your argument has nothing to do with the OP

[lame54]

15. I wasn't answering the OP...

that's why my name is indented on this thread

[seabeyond]

16. obviously you were not. so?

[lame54]

17. ???...

[seabeyond]

18. " I wasn't answering the OP...", "obviously you were not." so?

i know it is tough to follow the actual conversation. one has to read what is posted and what they post.

[lame54]

19. I have no clue what you are getting at...

the poster was ripping on all types of violence for entertainment
I don't agree and replied to that thought
I've given no opinion on the OP

[seabeyond]

21. my OP is lame? men in the rape porn thread are saying that watching rape in porn video stops rapist

from raping.

this boy rapes.

why wouldn't the new therapy be, allowing rapists a constant stream of violent rape in video to feed on?

you did address my OP, so....

why is that lame?

[lame54]

24. I never said the OP was lame...

I was not answering the OP

[seabeyond]

26. curious what you mean by this post.

" I wasn't answering the OP...

that's why my name is indented on this thread"

[lame54]

30. i should have said my reply was indented...

when answering the OP the reply is to the left
when answering another poster in the thread the reply gets indented to the right
i was not weighing in on the OP at all
i did not call the OP lame
is this going to end anytime soon?

[seabeyond]

31. clarification is our friend. thank you. nt

[lame54]

32. it's all good

[opiate69]

76. No.. Nobody is saying that at all...

What they have been saying is that the line you and yours keep spouting about the prevalence of porn being a causal factor in the (non-existent) increase in rapes is not borne out by the statistics, and in fact the stats show an inverse correlation.
"Not A" does not necessarily equal "B".

[Mc Mike]

28. It does seem like a fallacy to believe that 'pressure release' or 'blowing off steam' activities

do anything beside make it easier to 'release pressure' and 'blow off steam'. At least where violent or agressive tendencies are concerned.

[JustAnotherGen]

33. I've responded to a thread by BainsBane

But I think I missed the initial thread that alarmed her. . . that said - if someone is posting, "Rape porn stops people from raping" then I'm in agreement with what you propose. And I'd like to see this 14 year olds iphone/tablet/laptop too.

And this type and level of violence from a 14 year old is just disheartening. I thought my heart hardened when Derek Robie was killed all of those years ago (look up Eric Smith he was very young when he sexually assaulted and murdered that little boy about 12 or 13) - but I guess . . . well I can still gasp at how horrific someone so young can be.

I'd like to know what went wrong with this 14 year old - I highly doubt he just thought it up out of thin air.


ETA: It was a response to posts made by BainsBane in a thread by Tumbulu.

[seabeyond]

37. i read your post. and i agree with what you are saying here. i doubt that they would

let us know, but i think it is a very interesting question what this kid was feeding off. having two boys that went thru this age, i know as a parent it is so important to monitor life influences. of all sorts.

[IrishAyes]

46. Therapy? LIKE HELL! It will only reward and enflame them. Good grief,

the idea is like saying treat an arsonist with free matches.

[seabeyond]

47. oh oh... good metaphor. but, we are talking porn, and that is "special".

you know

fox news effect watchers, we all talk about it.
we keep unhealthy away from kids, that is parenting.
advertisers spend billions on ads

but porn? it is special. does. no. harm.

good point irishayes.

always thought it was irishEYES and saw you with pretty green eyes. i like irisheyes.

[IrishAyes]

55. The only thing special about porn is negative - it objectifies women and degrades men too

whether they realize it or not. The fact that animals will guzzle radiator coolant because it tastes good to them doesn't change its toxicity.

I loved Gerald McRaney's definition: Nakedness is simply when you're not wearing clothes. Nekkid, on the other hand, is when you have no clothes on and you're up to no good.

Nobody who loves classic art as I do has a problem with simple nudity. When my son was still a toddler, I took him with me to a museum. When we reached a Reubens, his interpretation brought the house down. "Look, Mommy! That lady's getting her diapers changed!"

Porn's different. It poisons the mind and soul. For addicts, more hair of the dog that bit them won't help.

[seabeyond]

61. so many times...

i have talked about growing up in a time when naked was naked and wasnt a big deal. we use to strip for the pool, strip for the hot springs. nobody made a big deal. today the guys line up. jump on their tippy toes, clapping yelling boobies, boobies as the girls strip.

my kids were naked until they decided to be modest. still waiting for my 16 yr old son to get that modest bug.

the argument used is bullshit and only used to shame womens sexuality resulting in them shutting up. shame women as sluts. shame women as prudes. same thing.

[IrishAyes]

62. While on the other hand artists such as Maxfield Parrish celebrate the beauty of women.

[seabeyond]

63. i do not know much about the art world. i walk thru and enjoy the ones that feel good to me,

or i like for whatever reason. certain art i like better than others. but, i am not educated in the art world. my mom was.she tried.

but, we had an interesting discussion about the art world in our feminist forum. i wish i could come up with the article. but, it was a discussion, even the art world, they have the women posed such, to be a presentation to the male gaze. and in the male nudity it was in their doing. or something. it was interesting. if you are interested, i might try to find it.

[IrishAyes]

66. Absolutely. I'd be indebted.

I see you point about passivity vs activity. My favorite Maxfield Parrish is the one where the young woman is standing on the edge of a high cliff in the mountains. I think it's called 'Ecstasy' or something. But it's very empowering, not at all passive like a Reubens, for instance.

BTW, if anyone IRL approaches me with a copy of Fifty Shades of Gray, I do believe I shall go berserk.

[seabeyond]

67. i will look for it in the morning. we had a really good thread on it.

50 shades was crock. i read a lot. i was spending a lot of time getting freebies from amazon when all that started. i had started picking up these books. not realizing what they were. poor writing. same thing over and over. no story, no plot, no good. so i had already experienced this genre.

it was a flash fad. we were told we were suppose to like it. we would be cool. and a lot of stupid happened. media took over.

personally i have not heard of one person that has liked that book. from what i hear, very very poor writing. i am all into good books. too many good authors to waste my time on that crap. it was a whole lot fo stupid. meh.

i will look for the Op tomorrow. i hope i can find it. very good article... blog, whatever.

it really was pro art. so if you are a art lover, and sounds like you are, you will appreciate. i did, and not a passion though i enjoy.

[opiate69]

64. Gerald McRaney??

You mean right-wing, NRA loving Gerald McRaney?

Surprise, surprise.. Yet another intersection of the authoritarian left and the religious right.. Almost always concerning this subject...

[maddezmom]

68. Strange but not the first time I have seen it

Odd to see that person quoted here but not surprising.

[IrishAyes]

70. Oh, come now. That was a low blow. I quoted him because he had a funny way of expressing an idea.

(Are you referring to the actor, btw? I haven't ever checked his background.) Do you find violent porn conducive to psychological health, then?

And btw, you forgot to charge me with feminism. Not every person with a shred of religious feeling is a RW. Or were you saying I'm the authoritarian lefty? Just because I don't condone rolling in antisocial filth? In general, I can't respect your knee-jerk scatter gun response.

[opiate69]

73. Color me nutty, but...

As a progressive Democrat since, oh.. The age of 13 when I helped my step-grandfather's re-election campaign, when right-wing dinosaurs like McRaney start spouting off about social issues, I tend to give them the dearth of attention they deserve.

ETA: link with McRaney being exposed for just another chicken-shit, yammering chicken hawk.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1992-10-07/news/9210070492_1_gerald-mcraney-disloyalty-vietnam-war

[IrishAyes]

75. So you've kept closer watch on McRaney than I have; is that any reason for my quoting him once when

he amusingly contrasted two words to be jumped on and immediately lumped in with him in all sorts of ways? That's a very shallow cheap shot. I might agree with someone on the best steak restaurant in NYC, and quote our similar thoughts on the subject; does that mean we're joined at the hip? Hell, no. I don't like people seizing on the flimsiest pretense in order to smear me with their ever ready broad tar brush.

Now that's the last I want to hear of it. If you keep talking, it will be to the wall because I'm done listening to this garbage.

[MADem]

190. I met that guy--spent an evening with him.

Had dinner, a little reception, nice chitchat, pleasant conversation. His wife wasn't with him, but we talked about her quite a bit because she was in the news (catching some shit, IIRC) around that time.

Here's what is interesting--he was on a USO tour, doing a "Support the Troops" meet and greet. I have to say he was a trooper, he put in a long day and didn't complain once. He smoked a lot--Marlboros, I think. Enjoyed an adult beverage, but moderately.

What he didn't do (and this was many, MANY years ago, when Major Dad was on TV) was give anyone a clue as to his political affiliation. I had NO idea at the time if he was liberal or conservative, D or R, whatever. Didn't say a single snarky or laudatory thing about any politicians. Military personnel who are smart keep away from those topics, but civilians will sometimes talk politics or religion; he didn't though-- he really kept the cards close to the vest.

He was a very good conversationalist, well spoken and interesting; such a pity his political priorities are so effed up. I have to say I'm not shocked, but I am a bit surprised at some of the childish shit he said in that article--I guess anyone will pander given circumstances that appeal to them. I wonder how he feels about these tea party types.

Don't mean to annoy you with bringing him up one more time--just wanted to let you know that his politics weren't apparent to me, either, I was ten feet or less from him for a good five or six hours or more and we talked a good deal during that time.

[IrishAyes]

223. Well, unfortunate as the information is, I needed and am glad to have it. Thank you.

Although I hold myself blameless for having repeated that one remark in the past, it no longer charms me because of the source. I used to adore James Woods, too. In his own way he's brilliant. But when I saw who he supported in the last election cycle, I ran screaming into the woods! I've always felt that an artist's work should be considered apart from his/her personal beliefs, but some gaps are so wide and deep that my reach in that department falls far short of my grasp. I don't care if that person might be 'smarter' than me. Too much is too much. And the smartest person in the room isn't necessarily going to be right, especially considering the many types of intelligence. What's saddest to see in public or private life is when a good liberal turns archconservative in their later years.

BTW, I do delight in pointing out to Ronnie Raygun fans that he and John Wayne were both admitted members of the Communist Party in their early Hollywood days. No doubt because it helped their careers, but still... most of their fans refuse to believe it. Not that I have anything against the CP either; a number of my close personal friends IRL are members, and they're my friends because they individually happen to be lovely people. I agree with them politically in quite a few ways, proud to say.

[MADem]

246. I think Kelsey Grammar's politics are in the "right wing nitwit" range.

That said, I refuse to allow his stupid personal views to detract from my enjoyment of the occasional old episode of Cheers or Frasier.

I'm sure if we started digging up the political views of people, we'd have to shorten our lists of acceptable artists and entertainers considerably; many people just keep their mouths shut, and that's probably a smart idea if you want a long career. And if people don't get TOO obnoxious and in-your-face, they can get away with being a wingnut. Jon Voight, for example, is a frigging whack-a-doodle, but he is bringing the performance on Ray Donovan. I suppose the fact that he's playing a mendacious jerk is helpful, too! Clint Eastwood, OTOH, took a hit for talking to that chair. He's famous enough that he'll recover, but that was a real blow to his reputation.

As for James Woods, he's a character on Family Guy, so I'm not going to boycott them to "show" him, either! He plays a jerk (himself) on that show, too, so that makes the whole process easier!

[opiate69]

249. I enjoy a good "Frasier" marathon as much as anybody...

but, when Grammar starts spouting off right-wing idiocy, I tune him out. I certainly don't come to a progressive website and start posting quotes of said right-wing idiocy (unless I was trying to make the case that he is, in fact, a right-wing idiot).

[seabeyond]

253. most people i know are republican. when father talks rw garbage, ... meh. when discussing business

or many many other things, i listen.

do you really relegate people to the trash in such a manner, for a political belief?

[opiate69]

259. Sweet jesus.. try to focus on what I actually say, not what you somehow think I say...

when Grammar starts spouting off right-wing idiocy, I tune him out.

Does that, or does that not imply that I tune them out when, and only when, a certain criteria is met? I've made no secret of the types of Tea-bagger, Republicans who are regulars at my wife's work, many of whom are actually very good friends of mine these days. We just don't discuss politics, and if we do, our mutual friendships help keep things civil.

[BainsBane]

245. I know of no correlation between voting behavior

and tendency toward violence toward women or sexual predatory behavior.

[opiate69]

247. Well, I imagine it's a good thing that I never said anything even remotely like that, then.

[BainsBane]

260. Wasn't Rainey's point about the negative effects of porn?

Which you decided was irrelevant because he is conservative? And this entire thread is about the relationship between rape porn and rape? Silly of me to imagine your point had anything to do with the subject of the OP.

[opiate69]

261. Installment 2.0 of "words strung together that make no damned sense"...

?d=1294009542

[BainsBane]

262. Once again, I apologize for thinking your comment had anything

to do with the subject matter. I should have known better.

[opiate69]

264. But there does tend to be a correlation between voting behavior and

casting aspersions on how other people express their sexuality.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4080026

[Comrade Grumpy]

49. Being obsessed with rape porn is probably not good for one's mental health.

[seabeyond]

52. agreed.

[ismnotwasm]

51. It's starts out with fantasy

So how does one twist their brain into thinking that approach is legitimate?

[seabeyond]

53. rape is down. lots and lots of men are watching rape porn. ergo, watching rape porn

stops them from raping.

now, we will not even get into the numbers we are given that suggests rapes are down. that is irrelevant. lol

[ismnotwasm]

78. Somebody was saying that earlier

It gives me a headache. Not only is it sloppy logic, it ignores the fact that most rapists have active sex lives. It's not like they're sex deprived.

[seabeyond]

79. ya. they have been saying it for years. and years. and now we have one in this thread saying huh?

no one says that. ya. and bullshit.

[ismnotwasm]

84. It was in another thread

Just bait-- I trashed the thread. Funny how people won't take in the entire consequences of saying certain things. In this case it's a patently ridiculous assertion, but the first time I heard something like it was regarding prostitution-- "rape is down in countries where prostitution is legal"--- and we all know how well THAT worked out.

[Joel thakkar]

60. Watching rape porn

doesn't stop someone from doing rape...but it also doesn't encourages someone to do rape.


There has been countless cases where rape was done by the criminal without any prior experience of watching rape porn and there has been countless cases where rape was done done by the criminal with a prior experience of watching rape porn.

[Gravitycollapse]

69. "but it also doesn't encourages someone to do rape." - Have any evidence for that claim?

[Joel thakkar]

77. I have been seeing rape porn with other types of porn since last 6 years

Last edited Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:35 AM - Edit history (2)

I have not started raping people...nor i have started viewing women as just sex objects. Sometimes, i even watch femdom where male actors are submissive.


EDIT : Some people think that by writing this post, i am cheering about watching rape porn. I am neither cheering nor regretting. I am also not obsessive about rape porn and do not watch it daily. But i am against all of those people, who claim to have a high "moral" authority by saying that they don't watch this but you do, so you are a sick person and need mental help.

Some people also think that my writings are a huge turnoff. Yeah, as if i do care if my writings would turning them off or on.

[davidn3600]

88. Correlation does not equal causation

Does a violent video game make a kid want to commit violence? Or is it that violent kids who are already prone to violence become attracted to violent video games?

You need to prove a cause and effect relationship. If you have a study that shows pornography increases the likelihood a person will commit rape, and that study proves a cause and effect relationship (not just a correlation), I would be very interested in reading it.

What you may be referring to is desensitization. That's a different issue.

[Rex]

74. I would speculate it would be just the opposite, rape porn

would drive one to want to actually rape someone in real life or would encourage the behavior to come out. Really why does one torture another human being? They enjoy it, watching something that they enjoy would motivate them to want more imo.

[seabeyond]

80. i dunno rex. i feel like you. and reading a poster cheer his watching it for 6 yrs...

and telling us how balanced and healthy he is... eeeeew. lol. dont want to do a face to face. really. some things just needs to stay private.

it is just a huge turn off.

[Rex]

81. Ewww indeed.

I would suggest anyone with a rape porn fetish, seek professional help. It is not healthy, stop kidding yourself.

[Joel thakkar]

85. Thank you for judging

my mental condition. However, i am quite healthy and do not need any help. However, i would suggest anyone to seek mental help who doesn't keep their head out of other people's business.

[seabeyond]

86. hm. you put your business on a discussion board, boast about your love of rape porn and then are

offended if anyone has an opinion on that?

healthy?

lol

[Joel thakkar]

87. hmm

1) Offended? - no - YOU SEEM TO ASSUME THAT

2) Boast about my love of rape porn - No - YOU SEEM TO ASSUME THAT - Watching something doesn't mean i love it and i am obsessed by it.

3) Yes, i put it on a discussion board because i do not think it is something i should be ashamed off. I am neither proud of what i do nor do i regret about what i do.

[polly7]

92. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I don't really watch porn, but have seen quite a few movies depicting rape, and I find myself quite healthy also. Even as a survivor of assault I'm still able to tell the difference between rape and fantasy acted out between consenting adults. Just a head's up though .... anything you say about it can and will be twisted and spun into the most hideous things imaginable.

[Joel thakkar]

95. Thank you for the support

Even i am fed up of this whole new rape porn threads coming up daily.

I have already been called out a sick person, a person who needs mental help, asshole, unhealthy, an-anti feminist, misogynistic, pedophile, for women-slavery, having a male-rage and a potential that i would definitely commit a rape.

I am so sorry to hear about the "assault". I hope that criminal is getting his/her due according to the laws.

[seabeyond]

94. ya. your reply to rex does sound as if you are offended. meh...

[Joel thakkar]

96. You Assume A Lot...meh....

[seabeyond]

98. i read your words. even the ones to polly. you put out offended then say no. whatever. nt

[Joel thakkar]

105. If i get offended...i would specifically write it..n/t

[Rex]

226. Seems a rather defensive one, never mentioned any names

I guess a guilty conscience will do that to ya. Anyone that gets off on rape porn is one sick individual and I don't give two fucks if I hurt their tiny little feelings or not. They endorse rape, no way for them to wiggle out of that one.

[Joel thakkar]

227. They endorse rape - wow - here comes another assumption...n/t

[Rex]

228. Go cry to the admins about it, like I said I don't care if it rubs you the wrong way.

Only a sick person would like watching a woman get raped, if that offends you personally take it up with the admins of this site.

[Joel thakkar]

233. Why would i complain to admin

I am not offended...but personally i would really like you to read what i meant...i am with you in banning/taking down "real rape" videos.

[Rex]

225. When did I mention your name? Oh wait, I didn't. Feeling guilty much?

Not my problem if the shoe fits and my post rubbed you the wrong way, frankly I don't care. If you want to watch someone getting raped in porn, then you are one sick individual. That my post made you come and reply out of defensiveness says it all about your mindset.

Have a great day!

[Joel thakkar]

229. Even i did not mention anyone in my original post

but users come to my post and reply to me....so that makes them guilty?

"If you want to watch someone getting raped in porn, then you are one sick individual" - Where did i say anything like that...if you really had time to read this full thread..you will come to know that i have never seen a "real rape" video and i am with you in taking it down or banning it.

If you even read my other posts in this thread, you will come to know that i had a totally different definition of "Rape porn" which created the confusion. I also tried to clear it out with seabeyond...

Have a great day!

[Rex]

232. Nice try but I never mentioned you by name you injected yourself into this

conversation and now are all hurt-sadz that people know you like to watch rape porn. If you like to watch rape and get off on it, the please don't let me stop you. Free country and all. I think it is just sick and if that bothers you then sorry but my opinion is not going to change.

[Joel thakkar]

234. Again there is a confusion

You said "rape porn fetish, seek professional help" - I already said that i had a different definition of "rape porn" and "rape porn" fetish. I never meant to include "real rape" videos in that category but as "rape" word was in it, many people assume that i am for "real rape" videos.

If you read my other posts in this thread (mainly my convo with op seabeyond), i corrected myself and said that i was only including "bunch of professional actors role-playing" videos in that definition.

I also think that it is sick to see "real rape" porn videos. Now, you are telling me that i have changed my stand as many people know that i like to watch rape porn. However, a confusion in definition is i think not a legit excuse for you i think.

I personally do think people should not watch "real rape" porn videos and should be banned.

There is only 1 thing that bothers me - I tried to clear out confusion but you still accuse me that i changed my stand as many people were against me. What can i say - fair enough as i don't have any proof to back my claim.

Have a good day!

[Rex]

241. I'm not confused at all, you seem to be the one confusing rape and rape porn here

and then backtracking saying, 'no no I just hate REAL rape.' I don't really want to know anymore about your personal problems, so let's not discuss them. Maybe we can discuss something else, but clearly you are moving the goal posts all over the field now.

So you like porn? Was that so hard to say without 50 replies backtracking?

[Joel thakkar]

242. hmm

May be it is due to because i am new here or English is my 2nd language. I don't know. I try to post as much as i can to say my exact thoughts. I know you will say i was "backtracking" and you may say it as i don't have any proof. The only thing is that i know that i am standing at the same point where i was 50 posts before.

Let's close this issue.

[Adam051188]

82. lol

Obvious sarcasm. What you seem to be suggesting is a correlation between watching rape porn and committing rape, you're probably right. I believe the UK is in the process of banning the stuff right now, if they haven't done it yet.

Like everything else there are exceptions. Sometimes people who have been the victims of violence at young ages, or any age really, can have screwed up triggers and responses to it.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. That it should be banned in the U.S. as well? Probably a good idea.

[seabeyond]

83. actually, there have been a number of threads on exactly what is happening in the UK about rape porn

over the years and in that thread, i have listened to men say... rape is down. watching violent porn is up. ergo.... rape porn stops rapist from raping.

i had heard it one too many times this morning, after reading the thread about the 14 yr old rapist and murderer. and i am thinking. since rape porn stops rapist from raping, per some men, then this 14 yr old should be fed a continuous serving of rape porn. right?

pretty gross statement i think. but i thought, maybe if i actually took a horrible crime, and connected it to what they were saying.... MAYBE they might think about what they are saying.

[Adam051188]

91. good luck

I don't think I've heard anyone saying that. You must read much more than I. Somehow I doubt you are going to achieve your desired result through the post you put up here though.

[Bonobo]

93. When women fantasize about rape, do they then want to actually be raped?

No, right?

So then why do you think that men who fantasize about rape will become rapists?

What you have done is confuse cause and effect.

Rapists watch rape porn. It is an effect of them being a rapist.

But that does not mean the reverse.

Cause and effect.

[seabeyond]

97. when a woman fantasizes about rape, it is NOT rape at all. its totally consensual role play exactly

done precisely how she fantasizes it done to her. every single bit of action is HER want. the partner/partners, their looks, their size, their behavior, what they say, what they do, when, where, how....

how in the world do you equate that to rape in any shape or form. it is not the first time you have heard this. it is repeated to you and others over and over and over. and yet still... you pretend that a woman is really fantasizing about rape.

that is so fucking insulting. rape... no consent. rape, no voice. rape, no control

can you not even kinda get how totally offensive it is for you men to repeatedly talk to women about womens rape fantasy as if she is actually dreaming about being totally abused with no control, voice or power.

that is BEYOND ludicrous.

do you GET that yet?

a man fantasizes about rape and he does whatever the fuck he wants to the women that has NO voice, NO control, NO consent as ugly, as mean, as humiliating, as repulsive as he wants to be.

[Bonobo]

99. Wow, that is absolutely bizarre.

In a woman's fantasy, she has it exactly the way she wants it, so even if it is a rape fantasy, it is not rape.

But in a man's fantasy, that HE sets up how he wants, suddenly THAT is rape?

What the fuck is the difference? Both are FANTASY.

No, I absolutely do NOT get what you are saying. I think it makes ZERO sense.

[seabeyond]

100. really bonobo? really???? it is that fuckin hard for you to put it together. fuck....

[Bonobo]

101. Yes, I honestly do not get it.

You say that a woman's rape fantasy is not rape. And I agree. It is a rape fantasy.

I say a man's rape fantasy is not rape. It is a rape fantasy.

Neither are real.

And no, having a rape fantasy does not make you want to experience rape or do rape.

[seabeyond]

106. a womans rape fantasy is NOT a RAPE fantasy. got it. you gotta get this point. you cant

understand that very basic point, you can not move forward.

a womans rape fantasy is NOT about RAPE in any way. there is NO rape. she can call it a rape fantasy. but there is NO rape. she has total control over EVERYTHING. no rape. if she has control over anything, anything, it is not rape.

do you understand that very basic, very simple point.

she is fantasizing a sexual role play. but, it is NOT rape. she can pretend it is rape. she can pretend she is afraid. but, there is nothing about it that is rape and there is no fear. she has control. she makes the decisions. she has the voice.

it is not rape.

to suggest it is rape is offensive to every rape victim. to suggest it is rape is to blur the lines of rape. to suggest it is rape is to normalize rape. it is to play... PLAY rape. rape is fun.

did that help any?

[Bonobo]

107. I completely get that.

Now let me try that back at you.

In a man's rape fantasy, it also is not rape because he has created imaginary characters that will not be hurt or scared or damaged in any way. It is in his mind.

He MAY even imagine that the woman wants it. WHY? Because it is not rape.

This should be pretty simple. Do you get it?

There is no victim. Man gets what he wants with no one getting hurt. That is what makes it imaginary, what makes it a fantasy.

It is what separates it from rape.

It is why there is no connection other than that watching simulated rape would be appealing to real rapists, but it DOES NOT MEAN the opposite.

In exactly the same way that fantasizing about a man overpowering you does not mean that you want it to actually happen.

I don't see how you can't get that.

[seabeyond]

108. a woman is fatasizing what is being DONE to her. a man is fantasizing what he is DOING to a woman.

you do not understand the difference between the two?

the woman decides what is DONE to her.

the man decides what he DOES to the woman.

the woman is not going to allow anything done to her she does not want

the man will do whatever he wants to the woman and the screams to stop will remain unheard, or make him harder. her fears will be ignored or turn him on. his abusive, will be done to her with no voice. it is all done to the woman.

you see no difference?

[polly7]

110. Wow.

You make it sound like the male actors in these films all turn into rutting, brainless beasts once the camera turns on.

Why do they lose the same ability the woman has, to reason, and adjust their actions to the situation and how the other person is responding?

Is it some sort of biological thing - are they just missing a certain gene?

I'd imagine there are laws against actual rape ...... wait, .... there are.

[seabeyond]

111. wow

that was a waste of a couple seconds of my reading time.

hugzzz polly. i have missed you so.

[polly7]

113. In other words, you can't answer. They were perfectly fine questions.

and keep your hugzzzzy crap to yourself, it's condescending and insulting.

[seabeyond]

115. no, they were not perfectly fine, .... a waste of time.

[seabeyond]

119. here is more of your brilliance. amazing. simply amazing.

hey molly... i dont think you are allowed to say fuck you, and basically screw off (as much as you tried to switch it around) is the same thing. you might want to consider that.

[polly7]

121. err ......

I'm not molly. I didn't say 'fuck you' to anyone and I asked you to stop with the personal stuff. You didn't. Exactly what you're complaining about - someone not respecting your personal boundaries. But, good effort on the spin.

[polly7]

129. Like a post.

I asked you to stop with the personal stuff .......... you didn't (and just had to do it again). that is no different than being accosted in the street and having a man keep on hassling you once you've told HIM to screw off. Jesus.

And don't call me darlin', it's condescending and insulting. I saw you do this exact same thing to another poster today actually accusing her of being a hypocrite for not wanting you to call her 'dear'. It's abusive and bullying behaviour.

[seabeyond]

132. again... just toally friggin amazing. are we done yet?

[polly7]

135. Sorry, what's amazing about wanting personal boundaries respected? nt.

[seabeyond]

137. we arent done? no? more? i am done

[polly7]

138. toodles .... nt.

[msanthrope]

258. This is the second thread in as many days when you've been called out for your anti-woman

language. Both times you've crossed personal boundaries with women. Why is that?

[msanthrope]

254. She did the same condescending crap to me in this thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4074989

Crap that wouldn't be acceptable from any male....is okay to do to females.

[Bonobo]

112. I see the difference because it is different.

But I think it is a difference than is not relevant. One that is more set by biology than anything else.

Remember, some women may fantasize about raping a man, but you will no doubt say that that is fine since it doest happen much in real life.

But look at what you wrote:

"the man will do whatever he wants to the woman and the screams to stop will remain unheard..."

What screams? Remember this is a fantasy. In his fantasy world, they are not real screams because, in your own words, everything he imagines what HE WANTS. He may imagine that the woman is scared, he may imagine that the woman starts liking it during the act, but the point is that it is a FANTASY.

Just as in your example where a woman may imagine or pretend that she is scared, she is actually in control. Well in this case, the man is imagining a situation that is not reality. His being excited by the fantasy is no more real than the woman being excited by being raped.

In the fantasy, the woman is not really being raped. By PRECISELY the same logic, the man's fantasy is also not really rape. I am sorry, but you completely go against your own logic.

Yes, different, but a difference without a distinction.

[seabeyond]

114. you do not get it. i do not know if it is cause you cant or you do not want to. but... i am done.

[Bonobo]

116. Sorry, that is exactly what I am feeling about you.

Your extreme lack of consistent logic is...troubling.

[seabeyond]

117. and your purposeful obtuseness is irritating. nt

[Bonobo]

120. No, it is called consistency.

You want to say that women can have fantasies that are not really expressions of how they would act or be acted upon. Fine. I agree.

That includes fantasizing about being raped, ravished, overpowered or having a man bound in rope and sitting on his private's. In the fantasy, the man (or woman or whatever) is a creation that exists solely to serve the needs of her fantasy at that time. Check.

Well, it is the same thing for the man and the CONTENT of the fantasy doesn't make a bit of difference.

Consistency.

[seabeyond]

122. you wont acknowledge, though you readily admit to recognizing, the very basic BIOLOGICAL difference

in power and control.

the one part you have to own, to recognize the problem, you ignore, readily.

she is not going to have anything done that is rape. he is going to rape.

[Bonobo]

124. I acknowledge that men have more physical strength usually.

But I do NOT recognize that that is an important distinction when we are discussing FANTASIES.

[seabeyond]

127. that was not the point. i spelled it out repeatedly.

i reiterated the difference clearly.

she is have DONE to her
he is DOING

major difference in the two positions that you ignore.

if you cannot, will not get the very basic difference, you will never understand what is being said to you and others repetedly. by different people. different manner of expressing. that simple.

it really is NOT that tough to figure. out.

[Kurska]

130. Everyone understands, rape fantasies are okay for women, but by your decree banned for men.

So sayeth...you

X isn't X if you it is done by a woman, we get it.

We just think it is ridiculous thing to say.

[seabeyond]

134. no. dont pat yourself on the back. you do not get it. you are not even close.

you are so far in left field.

[Kurska]

144. Well, could you try something besides repeatedly saying x is not x if done by person y.

It might allow you to actually communicate your meaning effectively.

[Bonobo]

133. At the biological level, that difference exists.

Now I know you do not like discussing of anything that reek of science or ego-psych or evolution anything, but look, the difference you are pointing to IS a biological difference in all animals.

Males insert penises into vaginas and that is that. There are not a lot of species where the females are the ones that act upon the male, except to perhaps "call them" or "attract them".

So if the male fantasy tends to be more active and the female tends to be more passive, it isn't very surprising.

So yeah, it is a difference. I acknowledge it. And in a fantasy, it is acted out in a safe way, with no one involved.

So that is where we are at. Recognizing a real difference in male and female biology.

I STILL don't think that there is any difference with regards to their relation to reality and real-life actions.

[seabeyond]

136. oh geeeez bonobo. i am done. you are so far out there. you friend is. this is absurd. night.

[Bonobo]

142. I tried very hard to reach you halfway.

But you are too removed from reality. Sorry, I could't get to Mars or wherever you are.

[seabeyond]

250. thank you. simple. i repeat, repeat, i could not get why it was not simple. yes. exactly. nt

[FatBuddy]

248. the difference is a safe word

i like "obtuse" as a safe word.

[seabeyond]

256. not even the safe word. it is the simple knowledge that is all it is, which makes it nothing. nt

[FatBuddy]

257. what you wrote makes no sense

kinda reads a little like presocratic philosophy.

[Kurska]

128. "a womans rape fantasy is NOT a RAPE fantasy. "

Do you seriously not realize you literally just said the logical equivalent of "X isn't X if it is done by a woman"

X=Rape fantasy

A woman's X is not a X

Woman's X=/X

I'm genuinely dumbfounded that someone would actually say that, but eh takes all types.

[seabeyond]

131. and are you seriously going to argue that a woman who has total control over what is happening in

her experience is being raped?

no.

she makes all the decisions. so where would the rape be?

if you men cannot understand this very basic concept, it pretty well reinforces the suggestion that this bullshit has so blurred the lines of what rape is. and that you all are making rape... fun, and entertaining.

do tell me how a woman that decides everything that happens to her is in any way even kinda, sorta, a little bit experiencing rape?

i am all ears

does she feel that fear of rape. does she feel the fear of no control. does she feel the pain of the attack. does she get raped by some disgusting pig she would even talk to let alone have sex with?

where is the rape in her fantasy?

[Kurska]

139. What on earth are you talking about?

"are you seriously going to argue that a woman who has total control over what is happening in her experience is being raped? "

No as a matter of fact I'm not. I have no idea on earth how you got such an idea into your head, but no that is not remotely even similar to any point I have ever made at any time in any argument. The fact that you think I said that says way more about your critical reading skills than it says about me.

I'm saying that a woman's rape fantasy isn't rape because no one is actually being forced to have sex against their will.

And that a man's rape fantasy also isn't rape because no one is actually being forced to have sex against there will.

See rape, requires one person to force another person to have unconsensual sex.

If that isn't happening, it isn't rape.

This may come as a massive surprise to you, but the thoughts and images inside peoples heads are not actually real. See humans can picture all sorts of terrible things like murder, genocides and jay walking without actually being guilty of those things.

[seabeyond]

141. this is what you and bonobo do not get. even in fuckin FANTASY the woman is not experiencing rape.

but in the mans FANTASY he is raping.

neither are actually raping. but even in the womans fantasy, it is NOT rape. in the mans fantasy it IS rape.

[Bonobo]

145. One of your statements was correct.

"neither are actually raping"

That was correct.

[Joel thakkar]

148. hmmm

"but even in the womans fantasy, it is NOT rape" - Wow...i am so glad that you know what exactly it is in every woman's fantasy. I am also so happy to know that even if that woman says that i fantasized about rape, it is not rape in fantasy just because you say so.

So according to your logic, a woman can never fantasize about femdom right? Because in femdom, there are many videos where women rape men...but..but..but how can that be a rape as a woman fantasized about it.

[seabeyond]

154. tell me how a woman making all the choices without any fear is anywhere close to what rape is?

[Bonobo]

156. It's not rape. It's fantasizing about being raped.

They are two different things.

Just as fantasizing about raping is not the same as raping someone because you are imagining that they enjoy it.

[seabeyond]

158. the person does not want to have sex. does not want sex with that person. is forced.

that would be rape. no fantasy there. that would be rape.

[Joel thakkar]

159. 3 points

1) "Oh wow it would be so hot if someone forcibly take me, to violate me and use me against my will to satisfy their urges" - Do you think a woman has choice to think this and do this?

2) "Oh wow..it would be so hot if i force someone to have sex with me..violate them...and satisfy my needs" - Do you think a woman has choice to think this and do this?

3) Do you think human beings can experience pleasure in sexual pain? I am talking about the person who is experiencing pain in the act. Do you think he/she can experience pleasure while experiencing sexual pain?

[seabeyond]

160. oh wow would be hot for someone to forcibly take me... she gave her permission. she is not forcibly

being taken. it may be rough, but she asked for it. rape you do not ask or give or allow.

just a bunch of role playing games of people pretending. there is nothing about rape in it. this is beyond stupid. everyone can pretend they are really doing something here, but they are merely having sex playing a fuckin game. nothing like rape.

[Bonobo]

162. Here's another thing that is NOTHING like rape.

A fantasy where a woman says no, but the man just knows she wants it and then when the sex begins, she decides she likes it.

That is NOTHING like rape because it would never happen in real life. It is NOTHING like rape because I imagine real rape is a horrifying act of unspeakable cruelty.

That is why it is a fantasy. It may be rough, but in the fantasy, the man may be pretending that he KNEW she wanted it. See how WEIRD fantasies can be? That's why they are called fantasies.

[polly7]

163. It is.

'That is NOTHING like rape because it would never happen in real life. It is NOTHING like rape because I imagine real rape is a horrifying act of unspeakable cruelty.'

Which is why I find some of these threads so incredibly insulting and ignorant. If only I'd been acting in a porno with a male actor who certainly had the obligation and ability to STOP and not break my face and nearly kill me. Comparing two consenting adults acting - anything - to what real rape victims go through is just pretty sick, imo.

[seabeyond]

166. polly, you finally made my point. yes. it is insulting to suggesting role playing is anything at

all like rape. you made my point. a woman. who has been raped (as you have clearly stated on this thread) know damn well that role playing has nothing to do with rape.

point well fuckin made.

[polly7]

168. Well you've got that completely backwards.

You've spent days claiming that women making porn depicting rape are in fact being raped, when they're fucking ACTING. Lmao at the ol' switcheroo!

[seabeyond]

174. no polly. you got it wrong. in so doing, you made my point for me on this thread. funny you. no.

what i have stated is there are a lof of women being forced, raped on film and it is being put online for men to get off on.

are you going to deny that there is an escalation of sex slaves both women and children being used on online porn being forced to doing acts against their will. you know. really raped. and being put out for the guys to jack off to...

that would be what i have talked about.

[polly7]

177. Do you even read what you write?

what i have stated is there are a lof of women being forced, raped on film and it is being put online for men to get off on.

That's exactly what I just said. FFS.


And why would I deny the sex slave trade? It happens all over the world. It's illegal and horrible.

And would you mind canning the 'jack off to'? I find that offensive to see a thousand times a day here. Women masturbate also, it's not something dirty and disgusting, though I understand you need to see it as such.

[seabeyond]

180. here you go.

You've spent days claiming that women making porn depicting rape are in fact being raped, when they're fucking ACTING.

there is porn made by actresses that indeed choose to make therse films. and then, as i explained to you in that post you just called out, there are a lotta lotta of women FORCED into these videos, and children FORCED into these videos and are in fact being raped. men are .... getting off... (censoring my words? freedom of speech? you are offended by jack off? prudish?) on women that are really being raped. or just flat out rape videos that are put on line.

are you suggesting you have never heard of this before? this is all new to you? you naively believe that all rape porn is consenting women ACTING the part?

[polly7]

183. Unreal.

You've posted hundreds of posts stating the women in those films are in fact, being raped. They aren't - they've consented to use their bodies in whatever way THEY see fit, for money, satisfaction - whatever ..... it's not your business why.

Has ONE single person here advocated for child-porn/rape or actual rape of any age - male or female? Come on, let's see it.

[seabeyond]

188. the unreal part is your inability to include the part of the sex slaves being forced ... find a

post.... one post... where i have stated ALL women are being raped in ALL rape porn. one post polly. if i have been posting that for two days, surely you can find one post. i know what i have been saying. you obviously do not.

the unreal is how you continually ignore the fact that the market is full of women and children forced and real rapes being put on the net. men not knowing the difference from getting off on simulated rape and real rapes that are happening with real victims. much to big an issue for you to just cavalierly dismiss.

one post polly where i said ALL rape porn are of actual rapes. ONE.

[Bonobo]

169. Actually. Polly made MY point.

The confusing of rape and fantasy porn going on here is by your side, Seabeyond.

[polly7]

171. Exactly. nt.

[seabeyond]

176. omFg. you two. you are so fuckin funny. you tried to be all on his side. i know you did.

really hard. i get that there is not way, in any shape or form, would you reinforce what i have repeated over and over and over in this thread. that fantasy role playing is merely sex. nothing about it could include the word rape.

thanks

[polly7]

179. Nah ....... I don't try to be on anyone's 'side'.

You know I did what?

What's really hard?

[seabeyond]

181. " I don't try to be on anyone's 'side'.' did you say this straight faced, or do you have a huge,

bee u tee full smile going on.

uh hu

[polly7]

185. Some of us are able to think and function independently. Is that a novel concept for you? nt.

[seabeyond]

189. you wouldnt be one.

[polly7]

191. lmao! Oh yes I would be. Why so insulting? nt.

[seabeyond]

194. Some of us are able to think and function independently. Is that a novel concept for you?

really polly? why am i so insulting? hmmmm, " Is that a novel concept for you? :

geez, woman, at least get things in order before asking me why i am being insulting. so funny.

[polly7]

196. In reply to this:

" I don't try to be on anyone's 'side'.' did you say this straight faced, or do you have a huge,

bee u tee full smile going on.

uh hu

I think it was spot fucking on.

Always the victim, heh?

[seabeyond]

198. you insult me, which i do not give a shit about. i said the same to you and you whine....

why insult

then i point out your insult and you whine.... victimhood,

whatever.

nite polly. sleep tight. no bed bugs now.

[polly7]

199. Maybe look up at what started it.

You accused me of being on someone's side. I stated otherwise. You had to get your dig in. I replied. You played innocent victim. Again.

No worries, no bed bugs here!

[seabeyond]

202. yes polly. each and every post for over two years. abso fuckin lutely. consistently. always.

then all the rest of the garbage in the post... whatever. night.

[polly7]

205. Persecution complex?

Sorry, I barely post to you. Only on things like this where you use something so horrible as rape to try to make people who don't agree with you feel like pieces of trash and bully and insult ad-nauseum. Not sure what gives you that right, but you've claimed it. Just don't be surprised at the responses you get.

[seabeyond]

209. lordy woman... let it go.

[polly7]

210. It's always polite to reply, I try to be nice that way. nt.

[seabeyond]

175. no. the confusing of rape is suggesting a "rape" fantasy has anything to do with rape.

polly made it clear that her rape is NOTHING like a rape fantasy. that is what happens when everyone plays in theis supposed "rape" fantasy, blurring the line of rape. that is why i spent a couple hours in this thread repeatedly trying to make clear to you that sex with defined role playing was nothing, nothing, to do with rape.

[seabeyond]

164. all it is is sex with defined role playing. nt

[Bonobo]

167. Well I was talking about fantasies, but it still brings me to the main question I had for you.

If woman that have "rape fantasies" (I use the word in quotes because, as you have pointed out, they are not a whole lot like rape in most respects) do not want to actually be raped, why do you fear that men that have "rape fantasies" will become rapists?

[seabeyond]

170. well geeez, it only took two fuckin hours and how many fuckin posts to get you to where you

kinda get why it has nothing to do with rape but only having sex playing defined roles.

i do not have another five hours to repeat over and over and over, .... the difference between the two. i think i have spelled it out pretty damn well, but it does not even seem to make a dent in forming the concept i am saying. so.... another time.

[Bonobo]

173. Wh-wh-wh-whaaaaaaat!?

Jesus, I think i have whiplash!

[seabeyond]

178. this... i can agree with you one. i am feeling it a bit myself. night bonobo

[Kurska]

150. Oh, I see.

You apparently have a fundamental misunderstanding what a submissive partner with a rape fantasy thinks.

See you apparently think they think "Oh wow it would be so hot for someone to hold me down and have sex with me like they were raping me"

When in fact what they are actually thinking is "Oh wow it would be so hot for someone to forcibly take me, to violate me and use me against my will to satisfy their urges"

The first one would indeed not be a rape fantasy, because they actually want it.

The second one is an actual rape fantasy, because in the scenario they would not want to have sex with that person, but they are made to anyways. The idea of this happening is sexually arousing.

Just because you are sexually aroused doesn't mean it is consensual or that you wanted it.

[seabeyond]

155. the person did not want it and was forced? well. that would be.... hm, rape.

so you are telling me people are raping each other with permission. lol. oh lordy.....

[Joel thakkar]

172. he/she is saying that

A man and woman agrees on a fantasy...fantasy is :

"Man would start having force sex with the woman...woman will resist but man will still have sex with her forcefully"

Now even though this fantasy looks like woman is being raped but in-fact this is what she finds sexy and turns her on. I agree that not all woman would have this kind of fantasy but if few women have, what's the problem?

similarly, we can switch the position of man and woman in the above example.

[seabeyond]

184. woman and man agree to pretend to allow man to force her to have sex. lmfao.

do people seriously feel like all this consented, scripted role playing is like... being raped?

come on. you can do better than that.

[Joel thakkar]

187. That's what i am saying

it is not rape....

[seabeyond]

193. we agree. there is nothing about rape in that supposed "rape" fantasy but sex with a lot of

defined role playing obviously scripted, per you.

that is why it is offensive to suggest it is a RAPE fantasy. nothing even hinting at rape. as you said. a couple people define what they will do and how they will pretend. then they have sex.

[Joel thakkar]

195. There is a confusion

i never mean "rape fantasy" like real rape. I may agree that i am not able to describe my actual feelings and may have taken wrong choice of words. I have tried to clear most of the things in the post 192 of this thread.

[seabeyond]

200. here is the thing. rape is serious shit. to suggest women are into rape is serious shit.

they are not. everyone is doing a little scripted role play to make sex fun. but... rape is serious shit. this has nothing to do with rape. it is sex. only. role playing sex. but sex. to say it is "rape" fantasy is to lessen rape, taking rape less seriously, blurs the line of what rape is.

that is why i and others keep repeated, nothing these people are doing has anything to do with rape.

[Joel thakkar]

203. I never suggested that women are into real rape

but women are into "little scripted role play" - which means they like what happens in that "little scripted role play" but of-course they wouldn't want that happen in real life. As i said, there was a confusion.

[opiate69]

263. The scenes that acquaintances have described for me, yes…

And really, there is no way for me to detail without getting hidden, I'm sure. But suffice to say, the "edge" players I know construct elaborate scenes, sometimes with months of preparation and negotiation, and when the negotiating is done, the scene is considered "on"… and there is no safeword, no turning back, and it may be months before the scene actually takes place (so as to put the "victim" off his/her guard).

[FatBuddy]

251. absurd

it's all fantasy

[Bonobo]

140. Seabeyond, this is where you literally fall of the rails...

You KEEP saying that a rape fantasy is not real rape because X.

But we GET that. It is NOT rape.

It is a rape fantasy. Can we call it that? Again, not rape. "Rape fantasy".

If a woman imagines she is being raped. Is it rape? Of course not. Rape fantasy.

If a woman imagines she is raping a man, is THAT rape? No, of course not. Rape fantasy.

If she imagines that a man is being forced to suck her toes, is that a problem? No, fantasy.

Why the hell is it suddenly different when you have a penis to use your imagination?

[seabeyond]

143. no. you do NOT get it. no.

she may pretend she is being raped yet there is not a single thing in her experience that is like fuckin rape.

a man is pretending he is raping and everything in his fantasy is actual .... rape.

she has all the control in fantasy. that is nothing like rape.

he has all control in fantasy, that is rape.

[Bonobo]

146. She has all the control/he has all the control

What if she imagines DOING the raping?

Is that wrong?

[BainsBane]

102. That excuse is pure invention

Studies show a link between watching rape porn and committing rape. They ignore all of that, of course. Ariel Castro watched violent porn all the time. So did Ted Bundy. That's where they study their craft.

As you pointed out, people here go on about how watching Fox News contaminates people's minds and makes them conservative, yet we're supposed to believe rape porn has no influence or turns rapists into law abiding citizens? What a load of shit.

[Bonobo]

104. Link to the studies. nt

[Joel thakkar]

123. Your point is not valid

Ted bundy was also an alcoholic


Consumption of large quantities of alcohol was an "essential component"; he needed to be "extremely drunk" while on the prowl in order to "significantly diminish" his inhibitions and to "sedate" the "dominant personality"


--- So now let's ban alcohol as it turns few man into rapist. Who cares if millions of men who drink alcohol doesn't turn into rapist.

Also studies have provided always conflicting result. There may be a co-relation but no study even has proved that majority of rape porn viewers rape other people in real life.

Here is one of the studies : http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1999-pornography-rape-sex-crimes-japan.html


Making a rapist watch rape porn doesn't treat him/her. It doesn't necessarily stop them from committing crime again nor do it necessarily encourage them to commit crime again.

[Kurska]

126. You're thinking too small, Ted Bundy drank water

You know what we gotta do right?

[BainsBane]

157. false

Last edited Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:08 PM - Edit history (1)

You haven't even bothered looking. That study looks at crime data. It doesn't undertake a psychological analysis of the actual impact on individuals. That you say no such studies exist is absurd. I seriously doubt you can even search an academic database. You found one article. I've read some of the studies establishing a connection myself. That you haven't read them means nothing.

It's amazing how people go on and on about how Fox news poisons Americans but completely deny that watching violent pornography impacts someone's psyche. The idea is preposterous and clearly an attempt to justify their own sexual desires at the expense of rape victims harmed by the proliferation of rape culture.

The difference between alcohol and rape porn is that no one who doesn't get off on rape watches rape porn in the first place. If someone watches that stuff, it is clear they find rape erotic. The porn desensitizes them to the violence, breaks down their inhibitions, and makes it more likely for them to offend. Justifying rape porn contributes to normalizing rape. Men think it is their right to watch victims, simulated or real. raped and tortured. The rights of the victims are meaningless. Defenders of rape porn don't show the slightest concern for women here who are survivors of rape. What matters is your sexual arousal, and for some reason you feel compelled to turn that into some sort of political statement: the rape porn consumers' rights first; the rape victims rights' non-existent. I was told I didn't even have a right to speak on the issue, to pass judgment. Liberals could pass judgment, but I could not. I had to shut up. They could not be clear about the low regard in which they hold my rights.

20-25% of Women are raped, and these threads actively justifying rape culture show exactly why. Only 4% of rapists are convicted and even then some never see jail time. The one benefit is that these threads have exposed exactly what people are and showed me I want nothing to do with them ever. Their entire argument is based on a complete disregard for women's lives, which is hardly surprising from those whose idea of excitement is watching women in terror, raped, and mutilated. That by definition is someone with a deep hatred of women.

I did not know there were so many men who hated women. These threads have informative in that regard, but I have read more than enough. I've had enough violence in my life. I have no intention of interacting with men who find rape erotic, who see a report of Indian gang rape and think: "hey that's hot, let me find some porn on that" (as I found on Google today). So I am giving notice to anyone here reading these threads and justifying rape porn to leave me the alone. I do not consent to contact of any kind, including responses on these message boards, with any of them ever again.

[Tumbulu]

109. Yes, this is what some of the most ridiculous

posters claim......outrageous and sad.

[Joel thakkar]

151. Agree this along with the claims like

"watching rape porn makes men turn into rapist"...both are outrageous and sad.

[Tumbulu]

153. so you think watching women being brutalized for pleasure has no effect?

hmmm, I think it has a whole lot of very bad effects.

[Joel thakkar]

165. why do you always say women

as if there is not a single rape porn video where man is not brutalized...have you ever heard of cuckold/femdom ?

Which bad effects? I have seen rape scenes in rape porn, films, tv shows etc..etc..so please enlighten me which bad effects? Have i started raping people? Have i started dis-respecting people?

[Tumbulu]

236. I have no idea about you and what you do

I am discussing the liberal position on brutalizing women for pleasure and profit.

Your personal issues are not what I am interested in. I am trying to discuss why on a Democratic/Liberal discussion board some self described LIBERALS think the right to hurt is somehow protected and is superior to the obligation to protect from harm which is the normal liberal position.

I am sorry to hear that men are also brutalized, I am against all cruelty and harm, especially when it is for someone's profit.

[Joel thakkar]

239. I am also against

"real rape" videos...and they should be banned/taken down along with the website. I also get how horrible that rape victim will feel thinking that someone is jacking off on that video. So, it should be taken down and strict laws should be made against this kind of videos.

What i am against is banning/taking down "a bunch of professional actors doing role-play" video. Best example i can think of is : kink.com
Yes, their videos are rough and violent - but all the actors are professional and they get paid for this act. The woman and man in that videos are adult, they were told about the scripted "role play" beforehand and they give in their consent.

Many people will agree that they had really not given their consent as it was under financial pressure. The sad reality is that capitalistic system forces us all to do that. Even 99% of Mcdonalds/Wallmart employees don't want to work for $8 per hour but they give their consent due to financial pressures.

Many people also argue that what is the guarantee that "real rape" videos are not uploaded/seen online and only "bunch of professional actors doing role-play" video are only seen? Yes, i think majority of us will agree to have govt make sure rule for that. One of the solution can be to include actors-info, post-act interviews, behind the scene making videos with the main video. This simple step can make it easy to stop difference between 2 types of videos. All videos that doesn't follow the rule can be taken down/banned. Websites showing them should have be banned/taken down.

"I am against all cruelty and harm, especially when it is for someone's profit" - This is in short capitalistic system. Majority of the workers degrade their physical health, bow down to financial pressure, get depression/stress in capitalistic system for someone else's profit.

[BainsBane]

182. It doesn't turn peaceful men who like women into rapists

Those men don't watch rape porn in the first place. Those who do are already disposed to rape. They wouldn't watch rape porn in the first place if they didn't find violation of women erotic. The porn normalizes rape, breaks down their inhibitions, over time it no longer satisfies their desires, and eventually some turn to rape.

Just like watching Fox news makes people more likely to vote Republican. A sold Democrat won't watch much Fox to begin with, but someone disposed to that view point will, and their political views will change over time.

Moreover, what you "believe" is entirely irrelevant. There is an extensive body of academic literature showing a causal relation. You can natter on endlessly about the nonexistence of articles you haven't bothered to look for. It only highlights how desperate you are to justify rape porn, which is central to maintaining rape culture. That is why rape survivors here find the whole commerce so objectionable.

And if I hear one more fool natter on about how we're trying to ban BDSM or BDSM porn, I'll scream. It makes me wonder what is it is that makes so many unable to distinguish consensual BDSM from rape, which is defined by the absence of consent.

[Tumbulu]

237. Thank you, beautiful reply! nt

[ZombieHorde]

147. According to my interpretation of my communication classes,

watching rape porn would neither prevent rape nor promote rape in most cases. I say "in most cases" because humans are extremely diverse and there always seems to be outliers.

[Joel thakkar]

149. +1000

[Bonobo]

152. I think that is true.

I can imagine a TINY group of people who would want to rape and maybe WOULD at some point but they are able to somehow "muddle by" with just watching portrayals of rape. This would be a TINY percentage. Outliers, as you say.

I an also imagine a TINY group of people who maybe would not rape until they see a rape simulation. I think it likely that such people would rape eventually anyway because they have a mental illness of that particular nature.. But in any case, a TINY percentage again. An outlier.

The vast majority, VAST, have fantasy lives that have no bearing on how they interact with other people.

[last1standing]

186. All you have are misleading claims and wild conjecture.

Yet you're pushing this obsession of yours in thread after thread presenting your opinions and discredited studies as facts. Now it appears you want to believe that this kid only raped and murdered this teacher because he was subjected to simulated rape porn.

You're obviously not going to listen to differing opinions or real studies that have shown repeatedly that pornography can act as a release valve under certain circumstances. Instead you're going to point to one or two poorly worded posts and claim that a faction of "men" (even though many women have tried to say the same thing) are stating that watching "rape porn" absolutely stops rapists.

There is nothing worse than a loud person with a big agenda and little reason.

[seabeyond]

197. no. what i have are men that say, here on du, that decrease of rape and increase of violent porn

suggests the porn keeps men from raping.

so, you are wrong on the first count that this has anything to do with me. i am calling out the men that are saying, because of increased porn use, and decrease in rape, does not mean it stops men from raping.

you get how wrong you are in your post, right?

now... with men saying that increase of porn cause the decrease in rape, i read the thread of the 14 yr old.

per these men, would it not suggest we need to feed rape porn to the kid?

seems logical to me, with what these men are saying.

but then i ask, how does that make you feel? it made me ask, what was on his computer.

again.... do you see how wrong your post is?

[Joel thakkar]

201. I agree with your point

"i am calling out the men that are saying, because of increased porn use, and decrease in rape, does not mean it stops men from raping" -

100% Agreed...porn does nothing which stops men from raping. 100% Correct. Agreed.

Now do you agree with my point :

"Porn also doesn't encourage any sane person to start raping"

[last1standing]

206. Every non-biased, scientific study has shown a correlation between viewing porn and aggression.

But the levels of aggression generally decrease, not increase after viewing porn. That doesn't mean every person who views pornography is going to be cured of the desire to rape but it does mean that it can be one part of treatment in that it can provide potential sexual aggressors a less damaging outlet for their illness.

One thing no reputable study as ever done is prove a causative effect between the viewing of pornography and increased aggression. Anyone saying something different is not telling the truth.

[seabeyond]

211. ahhhh, here we go. puke. so, you would be for feeding this kid his rape porn

to cure him

puke again

[last1standing]

216. Since you're vomiting up comments I never made you might as well vomit up everything else.

Your need to force others to bow to your wrong-headed beliefs is incredible. You have no fact to back you up so you make them up as you go along, smearing anyone who dares to disagree with you.

That isn't feminism, it's passive-aggressive authoritarianism.

[ismnotwasm]

218. Oh really?

What an interesting statement. So if I link to studies that show the opposite, these studies are not telling the truth?

[last1standing]

221. If you're going to link to that bs by John Briere save your energy.

But if you think you have proof of more than a coincidental, or correlative link between pornography and violence then please do post it. So far, no one has shown a single study that wasn't subsidized by a right wing think tank or a fundamentalist "scientist."

[seabeyond]

207. i have all kinds of thoughts on that. i have all kinds of ideas why our culture has the rapes

we do and why the judges are handling the cases the way they are, and why towns are running out the rape victims protecting the rapists, and why our girls are killing themselves being harassed and bullied on line, and why any public woman draws attention gets vile comment after vile comment and rape and death threats.

having two sons i am all over the males side on this, but.... i see a lot of things that need to be discussed without battle. that doesnt happen here. i just see it really much bigger than the flat out sentence you put out. i can see with all our society promotes with viewing our girls in one way only, and a boy that is raised in privilege and entitlement, and fed this crap... i can see him doing something stupid. but then we would have to get into the nitty gritty, and studies that say 56% of college men in a study said they would rape if they could get away with it, and a whole lot of other shit.

just cannot be so simple as you would like.

sorry.

do i think everyone who watches rape porn will rape? no

does it bother me that a human being can watch that shit and get pleasure. ya. as a person who has been raped, i think, you... you would be one that could watch my experience and jack off to it.

can you see how offensive,, disgusting that is?

what if the man recorded my rape. and put it on the net. and you men were getting off on it.

do i get to look at you with disgust?

[Joel thakkar]

217. different issues

Last edited Sat Nov 23, 2013, 09:13 AM - Edit history (1)

There are many difficult gender equality issues. I am absolutely appalled by the fact that rapist can freely roam around or get negligible jail. I also know that judicial system is not perfect as many times justice is not given. I also get furious when a victim gets vile comments/death threats etc.

I would surely like to discuss all of the above issues here on DU and i am sure that my view would be same like many others.

"society promotes with viewing our girls in one way only, and a boy that is raised in privilege and entitlement" - I absolutely agree that there are few sections of society who view girls in one way (mainly in less superior) and boys in one way (mainly in more superior). It is a barbaric system and needs to be changed. I even welcome threads on DU which takes this issue and i would happily participate in it.

"studies that say 56% of college men in a study said they would rape if they could get away with it" - Yes, they are many other studies also saying x percentage of people will do theft if they can get away with it. X percentage of men would cheat on their spouse if they can get away with it. I am not sure how can we validate these studies because as long as there is a rule of law, they will not get away with it (or least think that they will not get away with it...they may get away easily due to lousy judicial system)

"do i think everyone who watches rape porn will rape? no " - Thank you for not generalizing all men.

"does it bother me that a human being can watch that shit and get pleasure. ya. as a person who has been raped, i think, you... you would be one that could watch my experience and jack off to it." - Do you think we make sure that we look into real porn videos and jack off at it.
Suppose a man watches few videos from kink.com which are of "violent" and "rough" category...do you have any problem with that ? Kink.com always shoot videos with "bunch of professional actors" who consent legally before the act. They even have post-act interviews and behind the shoot making scenes to clear any doubts.

Also, why do you think that men wouldn't want to ban any real rape videos from internet? Of ocurse, it is dis-gusting and yes, video should be taken down. Website should also be banned/taken down. Police should even try to find criminal/victim. If criminal is already caught, police should add another charges against them. I think all websites who says/promises "You will see real rape video" should be taken down/banned no matter even if they show real rape videos or "a bunch of professional actors dong role-play".

I know that currently it is also difficult to distinguish between real rape videos and "a bunch of professional actors doing role-play" so of-course i found favor any govt law which can help in this situation. How about banning "a bunch of professional actors doing role-play" videos who are without Actors info, Post-act interviews and behind the scenes? Don't you think this will help us distinguish between "real rape" videos and "bunch of professional actors doing role-play" videos? Thus, don't you think we can easily take down/ban other videos/websites who doesn't follow the rules?


"can you see how offensive,, disgusting that is?" - Yes, of course it is disgusting and that's why i have seen any videos like that.
"what if the man recorded my rape. and put it on the net. and you men were getting off on it. " - Same answer as above. I always see "bunch of professional actors doing role-play" video...There are few websites like kink etc where it is possible to make sure that i watch the same.

"do i get to look at you with disgust?" - Why at me? Yes, of course you get to look at that person with disgust who has seen that video.

[seabeyond]

208. how about this.

after i post that thread to you and walk away. i think... what if you are titillated and getting giggle with me simply discussing my rape.

i have the right to consider that, right? rape is exciting and fun. why not even verbally.

that... is what women are left with

[Joel thakkar]

213. why do you assume the my reaction was titillated and getting giggle?

Do you know that all men think about rape like that only? Do you think we are just monsters and doesn't feel anything? I actually felt sympathetic, bad and horrified. I cannot even imagine the pain which you may have gone through.


I don't know about others, but i do not feel titillated, giggle, excited in any thing in which other's right is violated.

[seabeyond]

214. a right to consider it?

of course i do. i do not know you from adam. you enjoy rape.... even in simulation. the humiliation and degradation of women.

why would you expect me to not even consider that.

now... i did something really huge, all these years on du, discussing this issue. i never bring my personal life into it. never. it will inevitably be used against me in the future. you get that? i did it because of all the purposeful obtuseness i have listened to over the days.

that my experience can be a form of entertainment for you. and a lot of others here on du.

do you even get, just a little, all the women on du that have been raped, listening to you men get pleasure from it? then telling us some fake silly game of role playing to have fun sex is "rape" fantasy?

[Joel thakkar]

219. yes..ofcourse you have a right to consider it...

"you enjoy rape...even in simulation" - no, i enjoy "a bunch of professional actors doing role-playing" with making sure that it is a the same and not "real rape videos"

"the humiliation and degradation of women" - I do not enjoy that. I do not enjoy "real rape" videos. I also do watch "bunch of professional actors doing role-play" with women as dominant and men as submissive. That doesn't mean i enjoy "the humiliation and degradation of men" in real life.

"it will inevitably be used against me in the future. you get that? i did it because of all the purposeful obtuseness i have listened to over the days. " - See, i don't use that against anyone. I also oppose if anyone uses it in that way.

"that my experience can be a form of entertainment for you. and a lot of others here on du. " - No, it is not a form of entertainment for me and most of the users on DU. I get pleasure from "bunch of professional actors doing role-play" videos - Not from any "real life" rape videos. I can vouch that i have not seen any "real life" rape videos in my whole life. Well, it is a different thing that may be you won't believe me as i don't have any proof of my claim.

"do you even get, just a little, all the women on du that have been raped, listening to you men get pleasure from it?" - Yes, i get it. I also want to make myself clear that i don't belong in those category of men. I have never ever seen "real life rape" video in my life and won't see it ever. However, i have do seen "bunch of professional actors doing role-play" from websites like kink.com which can make sure that those videos are not "real life rape" videos.

[seabeyond]

252. the problem, joel....

it took 6 hours, personal stories and lots of posts to get to the point where you kinda get how UNrape supposed "rape" fantasies are. and they may be offensive and harmful being labeled as rae fantasy, when it is nothing of the sort.

one post, a couple minutes should have taken care of that.

two other men on the thread never came close to getting it.

that is ONLY the first step.

one has to wonder why.... it is so very damn hard for someone to absorb a very simple, very real truth.

[last1standing]

204. No, but I see how very judgmental, misleading and anti-feminist your post is.

Again, you have a big agenda but little to back it up other than a loud presence on DU (repeated posts). Even if your comment about a few "men" (again, women here have made the same point) suggesting that simulated rape porn absolutely stops rape were true, it wouldn't justify your vendetta against "men" who occasionally say stupid things.

All you're doing is attempting to shut down any disagreement by making wild claims and distorting the views of others. That isn't feminist, it's passive aggressive. If you want simulated rape porn criminalized, say so, present your facts and let others present theirs.

This need to dominate the conversation and turn those with different beliefs into evil doers is repulsive.

[seabeyond]

212. you are one of them. what are you going on about... you. whatever. i mean that sincerely.

just what the fuck ever.

[last1standing]

215. LOL! There's your modus operandi. Can't argue fact, just call someone a rape apologist.

Just what the fuck ever, indeed.

[Joel thakkar]

192. hmmm

1) Any type of rape should be illegal and should be treated according to laws. We can also have a different discussion about how our laws are weak and what we can do to strengthen them.

2) Videos/Websites which clearly mentions or promises users that "This is a real rape" should be taken down.

3) Most of us are supportive to take down "real rape" videos where consent was not given by the performers. Not only should that video be taken down, website owners should be charged and police should also identify the victim/criminal and rest legal proceedings should follow.

4) Many argues that there is no way to see if the video was "real rape" or "bunch of professional actors role-playing". Yes, but that doesn't mean we should ban all. For example : kink.com always have after-scene interviews, behind the scene making videos etc..which can at-least make sure that videos of kink.com are "bunch of professional actors role-playing" and not "real rape". I think most of us would agree if govt makes rules like this to have a pre or post scene interview with the actors or behind the scene making videos or even basic information about actors role-playing in the video so that anyone can cross check.

5) Argument that - "Seeing Rape videos will stop rapist from raping again and treat them" - is utter bullshit.

6) Argument that - "Seeing Rape videos will make men/women start raping other people" is utter bullshit.

7) Argument that even if women gave her consent for acting in the video, it is really not consent as it was done due to financial pressures. Even, i don't like working at McDonald at $7.25 pr hour..but i consented due to financial pressure. If that woman is slave, even i am a slave. Please Ban McDonalds, wallmart and every-other so that i can have my freedom. In a capitalistic society, everyone is a slave who doesn't want to work but still works due to financial pressures.

8) Argument that - "many rapist were seeing rape porn before they committed crime" is also 1 sided argument. There are many people who don't commit crime even after seeing rape porn.

9) Argument saying that "Women/Men don't like sexual pain" is also not true. There are men and women both who likes sexual pain.

10) Child porn is an evil and should be banned. Everyone Agrees on that.

P.S : whenever i say "Rape Porn" videos, i say meant "A video with bunch of professional actors role-playing" with prior-consent. I am not including "Real Rape" videos in that category as they should be banned.

[backscatter712]

224. Way to impugn the motives of most of DU there!

Real classy!

[AgingAmerican]

255. Yeah, no shit

This is about the weirdest thread topic I have ever seen on here.

[BlueToTheBone]

265. Sounds like Clockwork Orange n/t

[zappaman]

266. wtf?