For all of us favoring a Single-Payer (public health system)

[SHRED]

How would you deal with all the inroads that capitalist health has made in our economic system?

How do you remove it from everyday people's retirement investments for instance?

I am all for an efficient public health system however with mutual funds being invested, growth stocks, pharmaceutical and HMO investments, etc...how do we peel these tentacles back out without shocking the economic system?

I have never heard this addressed.

--

ON EDIT:
I have heard passionate, and sometimes nasty, criticism (I am guilty too) directed at President Obama for not pushing for a public health plan yet at the same time I have NEVER heard any "experts" in print or electronic media address my questions above.

[djean111]

1. I see your point - but unearned money gotten from overcharging for health care,

for investments in poisonous nuclear plants, from making people jobless or not paid enough to support themselves - sorry.
Start to divest and invest in better or different things. Funds from many places do that very thing today.

Not a good excuse for having people do without affordable health care.

[SHRED]

3. I never meant this post as an "excuse" I agree with you...

...however it is what it is and how do we get out of this terrible fix?

[djean111]

4. Sorry I was snappish.

I know people who honestly believe that it is okay to put people out of work if their 401k increases.

eta - and I believe I have read elsewhere that we need to keep maintaining and building nuclear plants for the sole reason that so much has been invested in them. And that we should not use solar or wind because there was not enough or as much profit. Sickening.

[SHRED]

5. people get selfish

I favor an orderly retreat but short of that we need the "for profit" system out of our health no matter what turmoil it takes.

[djean111]

7. Doubt it would be as much of disruption as a recession or a government default or whatever.

I think an orderly retreat is actually the way it would happen. But there must be a retreat, methinks.
People change investments all the time to "green" funds. I believe that a lot of people do not get the concept of unearned money vs earned money.

[SHRED]

11. Many people I think don't even know what's in their mutual funds

[SHRED]

6. Capitalism is destroying this planet

[phantom power]

2. three thoughts...

1) I doubt you can make that kind of fundamental change with no disruption. I've never been a big fan of arguing against legislation on the grounds that it will be disruptive. Change is always disruptive to somebody.

2) These days, I also think, "compared to what -- it's not like we have a thriving economy now."

3) Although the single-payer / universal-healthcare histories I can think of happened when the medical industry in general was a lot smaller, maybe there are case studies of countries that already did this, and how it played out for them. For that matter, Vermont is about to do it, so there will be that experiment.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

8. profit made from immoral and unethical practices is ill-gotten and should be illegal.

Profiting off of another's misery is immoral and unethical.

[SHRED]

9. Yes...we know the problem

Now how do we end it without economic chaos and damaging the working class?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

12. I don't know ... it is essentially the same basis of argument

that brought about a civil war. Kind of scary.

[jwirr]

10. Here in MN Bue Cross and Blue Shield used to administer Medicaid for the state following state rules

I did not have a lot of problems with that. Of course they had to be paid and I suspect the government could do it cheaper.

[PETRUS]

13. A question about your question.

Do you mean how can this be accomplished politically (i.e. how to get past the powerful influence of various lobbies representing pharma, medical equipment, insurance companies, and doctors), or do you mean what sort of policies could move us in a beneficial direction?

[SHRED]

17. Policies and political will - both

Plus ...how can it be done without harming the working-class?

[TheKentuckian]

14. Ahh...The next front, sane funding of retirement. The 401k is a boondoggle.

A cheap bandaid for gutting the pension system and a way to redistribute wealth largely to the top while holding folks in desperation and need too fearful to "risk what little they have".

Our systems and institutions are beyond a fucking mess, some disruption and maybe even some flat upheaval is required to actually fix anything.

What concerns you lay out extract more wealth from working class and poor folks than they create, what you are mostly discussing is impact on the winners at the expense of the losers while using the crumbs that fall from the table as a defensive rationale for the larger extraction.

The answer is that we need a more comprehensive public retirement system that uses situationally applicable logic rather than the three legged tripod that has gone the way of the dinosaur, never to return. There are no pensions and with wage stagnation and collapse little ability for most to save significantly.

Most folks will never be able to retire on their investment income, hell most will never even have enough to make it okay as long as they have Social Security. Most will heavily lean on Social Security, and at best will have a little quality of life cushion and that ever planned to be taken away via some means testing to bring them down to the same buying power as the wholly dependent.

What we have now cannot be patched up, we are at the best putting a coat of paint over a rusted out car.

[haele]

15. Even Single Payer allows for private health supplemental insurance.

That system is already in place as people transition from their existing policies (if they have them) into existing single payer systems - Medicare and TriCare for Life.

The most effective transitional process will be to bring in Single Payer that ensues (not insures) health care at a baseline level for everyone; Supplemental policies allow for the "extra bells and whistles" if someone wants, say, to be able to get individualized special care, use only "name brand" drugs, or have access to experimental treatments that might not be covered, or to protect their estate from being charged with expensive long-term end of life costs without having to put that estate into a trust.

The most efficient way to transition from major investments in health insurance is to transition the investments into a system where the health care industry actually provides a product instead of a service.

By inducing compliance and cost regulations into the health care industry, it becomes easier bringing more people into a single payer system and still allow the industry to make a profit. Maybe not as extravagant as the health care scams they were running before, when as soon as a claim was made, it could be denied so that the insurance company wouldn't be out more than the cost of the premiums, but the companies could still make a profit.

Gotta remember, the health insurance companies were denying any form of policies to a large number of people previous to the ACA. Now that the ACA is forcing people to buy insurance, compliance and regulations will actually ease any loss the health care industry would have experienced if we had gone straight to Single Payer.

From an investment model, the ACA is a beneficial stepping stone in favor of investors should the U.S. adopt Single Payer by 2020. It allows the market to handle the influx of customers and the transition without sudden spikes, one way or another. As regulations and compliance reduce the net profits to the insurance companies, the increase of customers with compliant policies will make up for that reduction in profits.


Haele

[SHRED]

18. well put

[PowerToThePeople]

16. There will be a shock

Many things will change as we evolve into a just economic system.