I am now totally confused. Does DU support the ACA or not?

[philosslayer]

I thought the DU community supported ACA. I've seen multiple threads where Republicans are excoriated for their opposition to it.

But then, I see threads like this http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024063985

Help me out. I thought we supported President Obama, who was able to do what no President in 100 years was able to do. I guess some people aren't happy unless they get their pony. Is it any wonder the poor man can't win?

[arcane1]

1. Surprisingly, the many people here on DU have many opinions.

[Rex]

2. So you started a thread and got negative feedback, welcome to DU.

nt.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

3. I do.

It ain't perfect but it's progress toward the goal of single payer which cannot be arbitrarily enacted by order of the President, no matter how much we it to be...............

[Nye Bevan]

4. The most common view is that it is an improvement, but still much worse than single payer.

A less common view is that given its faults (primarily the involvement of the insurance companies) it would have been better to do nothing and hold out for single payer.

[Laelth]

5. We have no choice but to support it at this point.

At this point, I think we have to remember Truman.

No apologizing for the ACA!

I've seen it happen time after time. When the Democratic candidate allows himself to be put on the defensive and starts apologizing for the New Deal and the fair Deal, and says he really doesn't believe in them, he is sure to lose. The people don't want a phony Democrat. If it's a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat, and I don't want any phony Democratic candidates in this campaign.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Harry_S._Truman

-Laelth

[sendero]

6. On a scale of one to ten..

.....pre-ACA is a 3, ACA is a 5 and single payer (the only real way to control costs, which are THE problem) is a 10.

Simple enough.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

28. where do you put ACA with public option? 6? 7?

[sendero]

69. Depends.

... because it seems that folks have widely differing perceptions of what that would be. Something like Medicare for All would rate a 9 in my book, as it is a well run, low overhead system. Of course, the health care professions would not care for it because reimbursements are low compared to "managed care" (traditional insurance).

IMHO, if we had Medicare for All (all who wanted it), reimbursements could be raised and the overall cost to the consumer would drop based on lowering overhead ("insurance" admin costs) from 20%+ to 3%.

[mucifer]

7. It's a discussion board. We have many opinions we are many people. We discuss.

[pangaia]

45. Whew ! Thanks for reminding us.

Some seem to have forgotten.

[SidDithers]

8. There are lots of DUers who bash Obama and the ACA...

but it's OK because they're bashing "from the left".

Sid

[cthulu2016]

9. In your confusion you may have missed that whining about DU is outside the SOP of GD

[Pretzel_Warrior]

27. asking for clarification on consensus views around here is not whining

[Jackpine Radical]

10. Well, since you're new around here, let me explain a couple things.

The first is that, within certain broad limits defined in the TOS, thre is no "company line." We tend to imagine ourselves to be free thinkers, and to argue things out a lot. People change sides in the debates as new facts come in, or at least develop more nuanced positions.

Second, in this environment there is rarely unanimity on any particular topic. For example, at the moment there is a war raging between the "conspiracy theorists" and the Warren Report theorists on th underlying reality of the JFK assassination.

Some see Obama as an apologist for certain corporatist policies, while others think him more liberal.

Some support Hillary for President, others ee her too as part of the corporatist establishment.

With respect to "Obamacare" probably the majority see it as a complex and imperfect creation that resulted from too many compromises with the insurance industry and with conservative politicians, but still somewhat better than what went before. As more details become clear about the plan, more problems--and more benefit--become apparent, and naturally people's views of the program shift and grow more complex in accordance with the increasingly complex information that becomes available about the reality of the plan.

If you're looking for the kind of place that endorses and enforces some sort of epistemological orthodoxy I'm sorry, but this ain't it. You might want to try one of those sites where everyone wears a three-cornered hat.

[philosslayer]

17. Uhh... sorry

But you're just flat wrong. On some topics there absolutely is an epistemological orthodoxy.

DU is pro-choice. Period.
DU is pro same sex marriage. Period
DU espouses the belief that climate change is happening and based on the burning of fossil fuels. Period.

Those are three off the top of my head. I could come up with a dozen more.

There is a "company line" on certain topics. And there is nothing wrong with that. I just hoped that supporting the President on his signature legislation would be on that list.

[edhopper]

31. The last thing you mention is a fact

not a belief.
We also accept evolution and a 4 billion year old Earth. That there were no WMDs in Iraq and that trickle down economics is a scam to enrich the wealthy at the expense of the poor.
We live in a fact based world were these are true.

I won't jump to any conclusion but this post is a little trollish.

[NoOneMan]

35. "this post is a little trollish"

A little?

[Jackpine Radical]

42. We also tend to oppose rounding Pi off to an even 3, as the Bible would have is do,

and a good many of us believe that the earth orbits the sun instead of the other way around.

As for pro-choice and same-sex marriage, these are issues of personal liberty, and pretty fundamental to a party that espouses civil rights. We also believe--I would think universally--that blacks should have the vote. Does that put us into some sort of lockstep? If so, so be it.

[edhopper]

54. All Blacks?

or only land owners?

[MNBrewer]

52. DU wasn't "pro same sex marriage" until Obama finished evolving.

[nashville_brook]

56. "epistemological orthodoxy" <-- blaahahhhahaha!

enjoy your stay.

[philosslayer]

62. I copied from the previous poster genius

What are you implying?

[nashville_brook]

74. slay that philosophy hoss

[ZombieHorde]

82. Those are good points.

I do think there are a very small handful of DUers that are not pro-choice, but I have not seen any against marriage equality.

The ACA is much broader than the issues you listed, so disagreements are going to be more common.

[PeaceNikki]

84. That's because Skinner explicitly prohibits one and explicitly allows the other.

The TOS prohibits "...any post which states opposition to full equal rights for gays and lesbians"... which is awesome.

But the autonomy of over half the population is perfectly ok to attack... as long as you're 'polite' about it.

[PeaceNikki]

83. No, there are several anti-choicers among us allowed to post their drivel as well.

[last1standing]

11. Of course you saw the thread, you posted it.

Sounds to me like you indulged in a bit of cheerleading and got your feelings hurt when a few posters didn't jump on your bandwagon.

Now for a nuanced answer to the question you asked (but didn't really want an answer for): ACA is a lesser evil that could give many healthcare but does not guarantee it. If the cost of obtaining insurance and co-pays is too much for someone, they will end up paying a fine for something they never had. It becomes a regressive tax on a portion of the working class.

This is a problem that can be fixed but is unlikely to be solved by those who start crying about getting ponies the moment their fact-free attempts at producing homemade propaganda are called out for what they are.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

25. it wasn't propaganda. it was a call to other like-minded folks to work to make things better

first step is ACA gets rolling. Second step, is legislation can move forward once it is clearly established in people's minds that ACA is not going ANYWHERE--it is here to stay.

[kentuck]

13. DU is not made up of Republicans.

People have different viewpoints.

[Marr]

14. You're surprised at ambivalence? Really?

What liberals wanted was single payer. At the very, very least, they expected that ideal to be fought for from the get-go; to be the starting point from which any possible "compromise" might be made. Instead, it was very forcefully excluded, it's proponents marginalized, and we were instead maneuvered into a plan from the Heritage Foundation.

Despite that, liberals still turned out in large numbers to support Obama in his reelection-- even as self described "moderates" either stayed home or turned their cloaks altogether and went Republican.

And now you want... what? Cheering? You're still mocking liberals as people who wanted a pony, and you want them to cheer? Really?

[philosslayer]

18. So you want ACA to fail?

Is that it? Are you one of those who's rooting for the website to not work? Do you get a warm feeling inside whenever you see the latest poll numbers?

You're either with my President on this, or you aren't. And if you aren't, then you want it to fail. There's no middle ground. So if you want it to fail, have the intestinal fortitude to say so.

[Marr]

19. I'm sorry-- are you under the impression that liberals have magical powers?

It doesn't matter one bit if I want the ACA to succeed, fail, or catch on fire. The policy is already built and passed into law.

Now for god's sake, stop blaming it all on liberals who wanted a pony and accept a little responsibility yourself. If you cheered for "your president" as he was maneuvering around the left to push a Heritage Foundation plan, you're a far bigger part of the problem than any pony-riding liberal.

[treestar]

34. But now that it's the best he could get

It's time to get over it and support it, as at least it's a step in the right direction. Wallowing in the disappointment will only aid Republicans who will try to move in the opposite direction. You can see how rabid they are in their opposition.

[Marr]

59. How does my lack of enthusiasm for the ACA help Republicans? /nt

[treestar]

71. They get more negativity thrown at it

Whether it comes from the left or the right.

It could lead to single payer, but won't if enough Republicans get elected. I'm sure they have no problem with dampening enthusiasm.

But if we had single payer, there would still be a tax to pay for it. Probably a progressive tax, but still it would be there. I'm thinking you won't be so enthused then either.

[Marr]

76. Yes, I would.

I'm familiar with the single payer concept, as are most people who actively pushed for it.

And I still don't see how my lack of enthusiasm for the ACA helps Republicans. Tell me one concrete, material way in which my lack of enthusiasm for this policy helps Republicans. Not a reference to magical, 'negative vibes'-- I mean something real world.

[treestar]

78. They get to say the left doesn't support it either

And the left with media access has done a lot in that regard. There are those huge numbers of middle of the road uninformed voters who can use the group of people from the left who are against it and feel that means it's a bad thing, and rather than support single payer instead, they vote to get the "gubmint" out of it. It's not just you. It's enough to get the media to be able to add to the noise.

I don't see that there is anything to un-enthused about when you want MORE of a government system. If it's accepted and works, there might be a chance to get a Congress that will pass single payer. If it went down due to not being good enough, the right is going to be the bigger part of taking it down and their way (nothing) more likely to take up steam.

[Marr]

79. So if people like myself would only cheer harder for the ACA, we might get Single Payer?

Sorry, I don't follow your logic there.

And saying that lack of broad, vociferous support from the public makes the ACA vulnerable in Congress is right next door to a tautology. Public sentiment is what it is.

The support of your own base is supposed to be at least part (some would say the largest part) of the political calculation when advancing policy. In this case it was not. Blaming liberals now for not being enthusiastic about an approach they didn't want is not a viable argument.

Do I want the ACA to be repealed? No, I do not. What we had before was even worse. But I'm not enthusiastic about the policy, and lying about that fact won't change anything.

[last1standing]

60. Where have I heard "you're either with us or against us" before?

That kind of black/white thinking doesn't work in a democracy or even the Democratic party I joined many years ago. Your argument is one of extremism and hate.

Most of us voted against bush the lesser because he espoused the very same argument you are trying to push now. Veiled threats and insinuations of being less "Amurkin" because we don't fall in lockstep with your desires isn't going to win you many friends outside the BOG.

Maybe you should try your propaganda there.

[Marrah_G]

93. No middle ground is something you find at Free Republic.

That type of drivel won't find much support here.

[Skip Intro]

15. Some do, some don't. We have varying opinions here,

(despite the best efforts of a few who demand a single-minded echo chamber). DU is a place for center-left people to express varying opinions on political and social topics. All DUers rarely agree on any issue, except the need to beat the Republicans at election-time.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

16. "I guess some people aren't happy unless they get their pony."

What if I already have a pony that accommodated 2 people just fine but have now been told it must be a 1 person pony and resent having to pay thousands of dollars more each year above what I'm already pay for a new pony in addition to the one I already have?

Sorry, but I'm not feeling very rah-rah over that.

[LuvNewcastle]

85. Are we allowed to write OPs that mention "ponies" and such?

I thought that was in the TOS somewhere. I guess I shouldn't have commented and kicked a troll post, but I think it's out of line.

[alc]

20. not everyone agrees

I think a mandate to buy a product from a private company is an extremely dangerous precedent that will be use again. Next year, next generation, next century? Don't know when but it will be a disaster.

I think forcing purchase of a private product as a way around collecting a tax and payments by the government lets the government claim to provide a service while avoiding responsibility for the service. If they screw up tax and spending we can vote them out. But in this case they'll tell us to complain to the provider cause it isn't their fault. Do we vote them out because they're lying? Or do we complain to the provider and see nothing change.

Others think the ACA is the only way to do something that needs to be done.

[PowerToThePeople]

21. Ambivalence

I want single payer. Fuck giving money to the insurance industry. If I am not insured through a subsidized plan by my employer I will be without medical insurance. If I am unemployed, I will likely be covered by Medicaid. I will not pay out of pocket for a "for profit" insurance mandate. So, whatever happens happens without my support. If this means I want the ACA to fail, then I guess I want the ACA to fail. It sucks that the Democratic party has become so Corporatist but it was not I that make it that way.

[LWolf]

22. I don't know why you'd be confused.

Unless you think of DU as some sort of superorganism with a hive mind.

DU existed before Obama came to prominence as a Democrat, and will exist after he's left office. DU is not about Barack Obama. DU is also not of one mind about his presidency or his legacy.

The ACA...is not what DU advocated for up to the point that it became law. It's not what much of DU thinks we SHOULD do. The division is among those who think it's a good first step and those that don't, or between those that embrace it for Obama's sake and those that don't, and those that actually think it's the cat's pajamas.

While many DUers are fiercely partisan and equate all politics to fierce loyalty to one party and hatred of the other, there ARE DUers who are more focused on issues. I'm one of them. I don't support a position, an action, a law, or anything else because it was said or done by a Democrat. When I support something or someone, it's because of soundness on issues. When I don't, it's because of the issue, not the party. I think a majority of DUers fall somewhere between those two.

This DUer neither "supports" nor opposes the ACA. I support universal non-profit national health care. I'm opposed to for-profit health insurance. I'm opposed to the wrong-headed practice of equating insurance with care. I'm opposed to premiums that cost as much as a mortgage; I'm opposed to all forms of deductibles and copays. So the ACA is no solution for me. It's also not the enemy; if the net number of people getting care for the same or less money increases under the ACA, it's better than before. That doesn't mean it's the solution though; not until anyone can walk into a facility anywhere at any time and get access to high quality care free at point of service will we have reached the solution.

I also think that making the ACA about Obama instead of about actual health care for people is intellectually and ethically bankrupt.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

23. we've got some really really really crotchety ultra liberals who whine about everything

Obama. So....they are the exact idealogical opposites of tea partiers but won't admit it.

They are the bleeding edge of liberalism and out-there thinking or non-thinking.

Consider that over 85% of self-described liberal Democrats said they supported and approved of Obama around the time of the heated news cycles around Syria and Snoweden.

So a broad swath of the U.S. is pretty moderate to liberal and will get on board to make this policy improvement work.

Don't be dragged down by the naysayers.

[Posteritatis]

24. You're confused that a forum with tens of thousands of users isn't a monolith? (nt)

[Autumn]

26. I don't want the ACA to fail. However, insurance finance reform is not

health care. But that's the best we can do at this time. Obama has already won, don't worry your little heart about him. He will be fine and will never be poor.

[William769]

29. DU does. Some confused DU members don't. Of course you have the third category (trolls). nt

[okaawhatever]

44. There are many a troll on DU these days. nt

[philosslayer]

49. If you have an accusation, make it

I support the ACA. Is it absolutely optimal? No. Nothing is. But after 100 years of various Presidents trying, President Obama managed to get a comprehensive health care bill passed. And now, when we should be doing everything in our power to make it succeed, certain elements of the progressive moment are joining with the Republicans to try to tear it down.

If you think i'm a troll, then say so, and stop being a chicken shit. And if you want the ACA to fail, then say it.

[okaawhatever]

51. Oh, Lord no. You my dear are the anti-troll. I believe in the ACA/Obamacare. I know that single

payer wouldn't have happened if that's what they went for and I applaud your efforts. You can look at my comment history to see we're on the same side of this argument. While some genuinely disagree with ACA (very few, actually) those who are posting all of the negative crap are the trolls I'm speaking of.
I want to make clear-I understand some folks are genuine DU folks who are posting negative things out of concern, or to look at reality. I'm referring to those who keep posting articles that never mention facts or data. You know, like the Fox show where they had three or four people on the show with bad Obamacare experiences but it was revealed they were all lies.

Keep it up and don't let the negative folks here get you down. I've got to walk the dogs, but I am hoping to post a fact sheet tonight or tomorrow on the ACA. Too much bad info out there.

[rurallib]

58. I do not know of anyone on here trying to sabotage the ACA

I do know that many of us hope it is only a way station to single payer.
Republicans are sabotaging the ACA - insurance companies are sabotaging the ACA.
And methinks you enjoy stirring the pot.

[treestar]

30. they claim to be constructively critical from the left

so it's allowed. Some of them turn out to be trolls. There have been some recent bannings.

At election time, no one is supposed to support third parties except in rare situations. The rest of the time, you can play the hopeless cynic or the rabid leftie who claims Obama has abandoned his base and they are so disappointed that they have to hold their nose to vote for him again; also bash Democrats who are from conservative states and demand that Obama get those red states to send progressive Democrats to Congress.

[NoOneMan]

32. My pony has a torn ligament

It can't afford the deductible. Lets make dog food

[renie408]

37. Vets are a waste of time for torn ligaments anyway. Save the money.

All they are going to tell you is bute and stall rest.

Or stem cell treatment, which DOES cost a gazillion dollars, but which doesn't necessarily work better than the bute and stall rest.

(I know you were kidding...but I do happen to know about ponies with torn ligaments and couldn't help it!!)

[philosslayer]

50. Okay, i take this topic seriously...

but THAT was funny

[renie408]

33. The day the DU universally agrees on ANYTHING

I will check to see if hell froze over.

This is not a community marching in lockstep. Don't get too bogged down and just go with the flow. It can be a little hairy at first, but you will learn the rhythm quick enough.

[Drunken Irishman]

36. A lot of DUers are under the impression single-payer will just happen if we vote on it.

They're also the same lot who think if they wish really hard it'll come true. Reminds me of my childhood when my parents would take us out to eat except they always picked the place. No matter how many times I said I wanted to eat at a certain place, we still ended up going to their choice.

Yes, single-payer would be nice. So would sex with a super model. Doesn't mean it's going to happen.

[renie408]

38. Wait...I thought we had to click our ruby slippers together and say

"There's no healthcare like single payer healthcare" three times??

[cleanhippie]

39. I support it as a stepping stone to Single-payer, which is where it will take us.

[Art_from_Ark]

65. How will mandating that everyone under 65 buy private insurance

from corporations that are listed on stock exchanges and thus dependant on ever-increasing profits, lead to a single-payer national health insurance system that is completely sponsored by the government?

[Fumesucker]

66. It goes like this...

1) Mandate everyone purchase private insurance.

2) ?????

3) Single payer!

Couldn't possibly be more clear.

[KG]

67. word.

i've never got an answer to that question either other than 'it happened in canada!'

[Enrique]

40. if people have to be browbeaten into supporting dems

then that reflects badly on the party.

But I don't think that represents the party. I support the dems without being browbeaten.

[lostincalifornia]

41. Compared to what we had before, a resounding yes. Compared to single payer, no. However, we do not

have single payer we have the ACA, and the majority of folks on DU and Democrats want it to suceed

[NoOneMan]

43. But the Democrats couldn't pass single payer without the Nuclear option, and they couldn't pass...

the nuclear option.......uh, well...ummmmm....


You mean Americans got fucked with this half ass reformed for no fucking reason, all blamed on that lousy filibuster that prevented them from making it too liberal?

[lostincalifornia]

53. Sorry to say but some Democrats in Congress never wanted single payer

so we do the best we can

[NoOneMan]

55. bing bing bing

The real question is, did any? If so, how many really?

I'm tired of the damn excuses. Frankly, I wanted an up/down vote on it so everyone damn well knew where their representatives stood and could actually do something about it. Instead, everyone hides behind blue dogs, filibusters, etc. The vote is never forced so no one has to choose between their constituetes and their donors

[stillcool]

46. the President is not well-liked

here, as far as I can tell. The ACA, is not perfect, and therefore not acceptable, but I'm not sure it would be viewed as derisively if someone else were President.

[FarCenter]

47. ACA has good and bad features; politically it would have been a win; but the launch was screwed up

[nyquil_man]

48. If it came down to a question of keeping the ACA or returning to the old system,

I'd imagine the vast majority of DUers would favor keeping the ACA.

If it's a question, though, of whether or not the ACA does enough or is the best possible solution, that's a different matter.

[TheKentuckian]

75. Even I don't favor repeal, who is going to just return folks to the predatory individual market?

Who wants to demand lifetime maximums and preexisting conditions? Few around here, I wager.

That said, we came out with a bad deal in its own context and that is a serious mistake as sometimes taking the best deal you can get at a particular time of that has too many flaws that result in mass dissatisfaction with limited benefit at substantial cost.

You screw the pooch too bad and you kill the whole movement for multiple generations.

Ponies have little to do with some demand for quality control on legislation that prevents handcuffs created by pigs in a poke no matter how worthy the intentions.

[Jamaal510]

57. The name of this site is DemocraticUnderground,

but not everyone who posts here is a Democrat or an Obama supporter. Sometimes DU has a few non-Dem posters who are cynical about Obama and the ACA for whatever reason, while other times, there are wingnut trolls here to disrupt.

[Texasgal]

61. I think it's important to ask questions

about it... why would that constitute non-support?

[Iggo]

63. All or nothing, baby! Yeah!!!

[Egalitarian Thug]

68. So you wrote a post whining about the perceived lack of support for a bad republican idea,

didn't like the responses you got to it, and so now you've written another post whining about that.

Does that about sum it up?

[Bluenorthwest]

70. Moderates in Service to Mediocrity miss Meta very much!!!!!

'But then I see threads like this' says the OP about another of his or her own OPs. 'I see threads like this when I make threads like this.'

[Marr]

81. lol-- no kidding.

+1

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

72. Yes and No

It's a step.

Hopefully it leads to single-payer universal Britain-style "socialized" medicine, Medicare-for-all.

It's not that, but maybe it's a step.

The insurance companies add nothing but cost to the process of health.

[KG]

73. that poor man! he's been forced to run and get elected president twice, and is

set up financially for life. the tragedy! my heart is breaking.

[valerief]

77. Not everyone who posts to DU is a real DUer. nt

[ZombieHorde]

80. I have mixed feelings about ACA, though mostly positive.

I think I will have a firmer opinion of it by the end of 2014.

[Jesus Malverde]

89. I'm with you zombie.

All this talk about insurance... Lets see how the delivery of healthcare plays out.

Will America be healthier at the end of 2014 or 2015, we'll see.

[BlueCaliDem]

86. A segment of the DU population doesn't support President Obama

at all, and never has. He's too "Republican", too "Centrist/Center-Right", and just not good enough (forgetting, of course, that the country is very centrist - think Independents - and will never vote for an outright Liberal).

The PPACA is part of President Obama's legacy. Are you now surprised that the very same segment on DU who have never supported President Obama is against the PPACA? I'm not.

[fadedrose]

87. Yes and No

Does that help?

[polichick]

88. You can post all the insulting threads you want...

Not everyone is going to line up and be the good little pawns you're looking for.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

90. Some parts of it are...OK.

[bobGandolf]

91. It is easy to get confused...

if your mindset is democratic political discussions where unity behind each issue is the goal.
My opinion is the DU community was formed to allow multiple opinions regarding every issue, and the debates regarding those issues. These are under a wide democratic party umbrella.

[Marrah_G]

92. Some people like it, some hate it, some like parts and don't like other parts

That's what happens when you have people free to think for themselves.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

94. it's better than what we had, but it's not perfect