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Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:03 AM Nov 2013

Pornography, especially violent variants, furthers rape culture...

http://www.socialcostsofpornography.com/Layden_Pornography_and_Violence.pdf

These studies indicate that the use of pornography, even that which does not include sexual violence, changes beliefs about rape and sexual violence. If women like to be raped and deserve to be raped, there is no need for sexual restraint or frustration of sexual desire. Rape pornography teaches men that when a woman says no, the man does not need to stop. So a man may learn that there is no need to pay attention to a woman who is resisting, crying, screaming, struggling, or saying no, because ultimately she wants it and will enjoy it. He can conclude that her resistance is a sham and is part of a sex dance that leads to orgasm. He may assume that even her resistance is sexy and sexually arousing because it
is part of the sexual template.

In other words, pornography makes violence sexy.

...

Sexual violence attitudes lead to an increased likelihood of violent sexual behavior.
Some studies have looked at likelihood measures while other studies have looked at actual
(self-reported) behaviors.

Pornography can start to cross the line between thought and behavior in the kinds
of fantasies that can produce an erection. One study exposed males to an arousing rape or
non-rape presentation and then asked them to try to reach as high a level of sexual arousal
as they could without any direct stimulation of the penis. In doing so, those who had been
exposed to the rape presentation created more sexually violent fantasies than those
exposed to the non-rape presentation. For these males, rape fantasies were now part of
their sexual template.

Another study examined measures of the likelihood of future sexually violent
behavior as well as past actual sexually violent behaviors. It found that all types of
pornography (soft core, hard core, violent, and rape) are correlated with using verbal
coercion, drugs, and alcohol to sexually coerce women. The likelihood of forcing a woman
sexually was correlated with the use of hard core, violent, and rape pornography. The
likelihood of raping a woman was correlated with the use of all types of pornography,
including soft-core pornography. All types of pornography other than soft core were
correlated with actual rape. Those reporting higher exposure to violent pornography are six
times more likely to report having raped than those reporting low exposure.



As well, one of the studies referenced in the paper above...

http://www.johnbriere.com/malamuth%20%26%20briere.pdf



319 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Pornography, especially violent variants, furthers rape culture... (Original Post) Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 OP
bookmarking to read tomorrow. nt seabeyond Nov 2013 #1
Will Ferrell & Zach Galifianakis Read '50 Shades of Grey' Katashi_itto Nov 2013 #111
This is undoubtedly why rape is so rare in countries without pornography... Demo_Chris Nov 2013 #2
"rape culture" is "inflamatory, insulting, and ludicrous phrases" wow. not even a little bit of a seabeyond Nov 2013 #6
Yes, that is the intent of the phrase. There might be "rape cultures"... Demo_Chris Nov 2013 #24
Yeah, because 1 out of 33 men, and 1 out of 6 women being sexually assaulted isn't rape culture KitSileya Nov 2013 #25
ah kit. you are awesome. my son bought me a coffee drink at ten last night. 5 am here now. seabeyond Nov 2013 #27
I had indeed just crawled out of bed. KitSileya Nov 2013 #46
well said! nt Mojorabbit Nov 2013 #53
Using that standard you are free to call it anything you like... Demo_Chris Nov 2013 #57
Off the top of my head.... KitSileya Nov 2013 #64
Not to mention KitSileya Nov 2013 #66
did the guy end up having sex with the 13 yr old in animal house? cant remember. they were seabeyond Nov 2013 #197
no he did not. zappaman Nov 2013 #225
do we know that? or just assuming cause that is what we want? wasnt it left to us to figure? and... seabeyond Nov 2013 #226
yes, we know that. n/t zappaman Nov 2013 #228
did he then rape her on the football field? even though she consented? nt seabeyond Nov 2013 #229
No. zappaman Nov 2013 #230
She was 13. He was over 18. Even during that time it would be rape, right. She was unable to consent seabeyond Nov 2013 #240
Not trying to derail.. pipoman Nov 2013 #269
Wait...what? zappaman Nov 2013 #288
Bonobo just reminded me it is Muldoon's sister is married to pipoman Nov 2013 #304
Say what!? Bonobo Nov 2013 #290
Apparently Ahmet is married to Muldoon's sister. nt Bonobo Nov 2013 #294
Yeah, pipoman Nov 2013 #303
Gone with the Wind? Tie me Up, tie me Down? zazen Nov 2013 #65
Yeah, Gone With the Wind is a good example KitSileya Nov 2013 #68
Oh, and then you have to mention Roman Polanski KitSileya Nov 2013 #67
Sixteen Candles n/t KitSileya Nov 2013 #69
Streetcar Named Desire gollygee Nov 2013 #105
Game, set, match. geek tragedy Nov 2013 #118
Woody Allen BainsBane Nov 2013 #296
A boy and his dog? n/t lumberjack_jeff Nov 2013 #216
Goldfinger phil89 Nov 2013 #285
welcome to Du gopiscrap Nov 2013 #293
Hello ~ phil89 In_The_Wind Nov 2013 #306
The entire genre of rape porn BainsBane Nov 2013 #295
I'd like to point out that Bonobo Nov 2013 #302
I guess someone never took anthro in college BainsBane Nov 2013 #300
So it's a game? snooper2 Nov 2013 #307
+1 ismnotwasm Nov 2013 #234
How is the term "rape culture" inflammatory and insulting? Insulting to who? Dash87 Nov 2013 #34
Everyone who is not a rapist. nt Demo_Chris Nov 2013 #58
How is that? It's a description of an ailment in our culture, not saying everyone is a rapist. Dash87 Nov 2013 #61
You believe rape is excused and accepted? Demo_Chris Nov 2013 #98
Did you just claim that America is positive to homosexuality? KitSileya Nov 2013 #100
approaching attractive women and offering 50 bucks for a bj is respecting women. seabeyond Nov 2013 #139
You make the false assumption that cultural problems must be in the open to exist. Dash87 Nov 2013 #167
Not only excused and accepted. PassingFair Dec 2013 #316
You know what's really insulting? BainsBane Nov 2013 #313
To men who don't want to be exposed to discussions of rape BainsBane Nov 2013 #298
that is the same argument 2Aers put forth ... Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #40
Such is always the case. Popular opinions rarely need protection. nt Demo_Chris Nov 2013 #62
true. it is so fuckin popular to treat all women as prostitutes, offer them 50 for a bj seabeyond Nov 2013 #126
Do you also think the ACLU is a group of dittohead, racist, kiddie diddlers? Major Nikon Nov 2013 #146
it won't last ... the ACLU is not stupid ... Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #165
The ACLU doesn't defend rapists Major Nikon Nov 2013 #168
you are really passionate for all this rape porn. - Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #170
... Major Nikon Nov 2013 #174
your passion for this subject is boundless - Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #177
The point of my post is that your response is highly predictable Major Nikon Nov 2013 #178
You are trying to put words in my mouth that I never said. Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #231
The implication was obvious or you wouldn't have mentioned it to begin with Major Nikon Nov 2013 #232
AFAIAC you and I have agreed to disagree about this subject. No Big Deal. Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #233
... Major Nikon Nov 2013 #235
You sure like to argue FOR something that you claim to not give a shit about and Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #238
This message was self-deleted by its author seabeyond Nov 2013 #239
Yet you have no issues with those who post homophobic sources the SPLC says fund junk science Major Nikon Nov 2013 #243
But we're talking about people who want to ban porn that doesn't feature actual rape. EOTE Nov 2013 #312
Should cartoons of children being raped be legal then? PassingFair Dec 2013 #317
There should be NO cartoons which are illegal. EOTE Dec 2013 #319
People who sneer at the term 'rape culture' perpetrate it quite often geek tragedy Nov 2013 #113
yes. treat every attractive woman as a prostitute. really... it will be fun. yes. seabeyond Nov 2013 #123
Don't forget treating women as prey during the 'hunt' geek tragedy Nov 2013 #124
and he fuckin sits here on du.... with no qualms getting his posts hidden or addressed by seabeyond Nov 2013 #128
What country would that be? BainsBane Nov 2013 #299
The pervasive theme of stalking and killing women in popular entertainment is harmful too Manifestor_of_Light Nov 2013 #3
Very good point! nt Tumbulu Nov 2013 #9
And on top of it... Scootaloo Nov 2013 #26
clint eastwood, always stopping a rape or getting the rapist. how many movies of his.... seabeyond Nov 2013 #28
Well, there were only two roles for women in that period of westerns Scootaloo Nov 2013 #30
"Sudden Impact" Adsos Letter Nov 2013 #79
the one with the president.... choking the woman. eastwood was a thief. nt seabeyond Nov 2013 #95
Yup, forgot about that one. Adsos Letter Nov 2013 #96
The choking in "Absolute Power" was a consensual act gone very wrong Orrex Nov 2013 #209
i know there are others... but i havent seen all of his. play misty was the flip side seabeyond Nov 2013 #210
not in the book it wasn't TorchTheWitch Nov 2013 #212
Well, all right. But the point was being made about the Eastwood film. Orrex Nov 2013 #213
actually he "spanked" her once and she let it go. the second time, wasnt it? escalated seabeyond Nov 2013 #215
I believe that you're correct. Orrex Nov 2013 #222
What about it? TorchTheWitch Nov 2013 #223
My objection makes less sense now that seabeyond correctly pointed out my error (nt) Orrex Nov 2013 #224
Your points are well taken, but let us not forget: Threedifferentones Nov 2013 #91
Well, now, the Western portrays a view of masculinity KitSileya Nov 2013 #217
yup. and not the reality of the west. those women were as tough and worked as hard... as any man. seabeyond Nov 2013 #221
or being the rapist arely staircase Nov 2013 #52
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2013 #101
another point of view Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #32
Interesting. The Social Costs of Pornography is a project of the Witherspoon Institute. Comrade Grumpy Nov 2013 #4
No It doesn't matter to us Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #35
The link is of little concern. The paper is what's important. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #78
And I'm sure the research they link to on the evils of homosexuality is just as valid. Comrade Grumpy Nov 2013 #81
Well, no. Obviously not. Sex negativism has a strange cross over... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #83
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2013 #268
We all have agendas. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #272
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2013 #277
There's a false belief that disinterest in science is a reality. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #286
But why did you select a right wing source Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #85
I didn't knowingly link to a right wing website. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #87
Essentially "This paper is good, while the rest of their studies are bad" sort of thing Katashi_itto Nov 2013 #163
Your sources are the worst sort of shitbags Major Nikon Nov 2013 #244
Self deleting would make it seem as though I'm hiding it. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #248
Suit yourself Major Nikon Nov 2013 #260
No my point is deleting a thread now would appear rather low. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #264
I know you try to pass off junk science Major Nikon Nov 2013 #271
"a study in which a rat evidently died of erotoxins from pleasuring itself to death" snooper2 Nov 2013 #308
Same author as the OP... Major Nikon Nov 2013 #311
Just for information sake, here's how you handle that. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #280
That is a good idea. I'll keep it in mind. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #282
All things considered... Lancero Nov 2013 #5
huge difference between a very natural and instinctive act of sex, and murder. dontcha think? seabeyond Nov 2013 #8
Look at our history... Lancero Nov 2013 #12
we easily recognize murder is wrong. we do not even suggest sex is wrong. but a healthy part of seabeyond Nov 2013 #13
Rape is... Lancero Nov 2013 #17
that being said? you are still going to bring that into it? seabeyond Nov 2013 #18
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2013 #270
It was my understanding that rape has nothing to do with sex. Orrex Nov 2013 #102
and that is the issue with blurring the line between sex and rape. hence rape fantasy that is seabeyond Nov 2013 #103
I'm not sure that murder isn't a natural part of who we are Orrex Nov 2013 #134
are we all murdering? are we all having sex? nt seabeyond Nov 2013 #136
By that logic, homosexuality is unnatural Orrex Nov 2013 #137
wow. ok. whatever. really tired of this crap. we are murderous sexual beings. seabeyond Nov 2013 #138
In a nutshell, yes. We also eat, drink, and excrete. Orrex Nov 2013 #140
the vast majority of us do not murder nor have the impulse to murder. but you demand we assume the seabeyond Nov 2013 #141
That's simply a lie. I made no such demand. Orrex Nov 2013 #143
i will leave alone and let others perceive the disagreement. you put murder along with eating, seabeyond Nov 2013 #144
The lie is that you stated that I demanded that we all murder. I did not. Orrex Nov 2013 #145
that is the lie? you yourself said it is in all of us. obvious i did not mean we murder... but it seabeyond Nov 2013 #148
I clarified my position, and you ignored the clarification. Orrex Nov 2013 #149
we do not agree. nt seabeyond Nov 2013 #151
I know. Orrex Nov 2013 #162
i do not think that is innate. it is practical. i am in a situation where i have to protect, seabeyond Nov 2013 #164
Please explain the substantive difference between the two Orrex Nov 2013 #171
is all of the world going around murdering and being violent? no. is all of the world seabeyond Nov 2013 #176
Surely you don't exclude asexual people from "all the world," do you? Orrex Nov 2013 #179
Hopefully not all at the same time. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #199
I do not get your point at all Tumbulu Nov 2013 #10
Effect... Lancero Nov 2013 #15
You think a person chooses to be raped? Tumbulu Nov 2013 #19
Your missing that... Lancero Nov 2013 #21
I am not following you Tumbulu Nov 2013 #55
Partially my fault... Lancero Nov 2013 #56
Try reversing this sentence just for fun. Bonobo Nov 2013 #7
Ahh the good old directional/third variable problem. Kurska Nov 2013 #11
Any society or any person who wants to ban fiction or damage freedom of speech Kurska Nov 2013 #14
that's one thing right wingers and liberals have in common. Both groups think they know what is liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #92
With all this "ban porn" talk lately, you'd think the Tea Party had invaded DU davidn3600 Nov 2013 #16
they can co sponsor Niceguy1 Nov 2013 #20
Not feminists. A few people who want to use the mantle of feminism to control others. last1standing Nov 2013 #29
And then they wonder why Hayabusa Nov 2013 #49
I'm very proud to be called a feminist. last1standing Nov 2013 #94
Well put. Hayabusa Nov 2013 #99
Bravo...very well put! Katashi_itto Nov 2013 #50
Exactly. I smell a rat. backscatter712 Nov 2013 #125
Quoting homophobic thumpers on DU? Prism Nov 2013 #22
Don't forget Judith Reisman, the source of the "science" about porn's "dangerous brain chemicals" Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #23
Oh that's where that crazy shit came from... Bonobo Nov 2013 #33
"not allowed to use anyone who celebrates Christmas or has set foot in a church" ...sigh! Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #198
Really??? opiate69 Nov 2013 #204
You have got to be kidding me. RiffRandell Nov 2013 #38
Ooooh, she's an evil one. Codeine Nov 2013 #74
This will be a quiet subthread nt ProudToBeBlueInRhody Nov 2013 #173
If I ever manage a girl metal band Prism Nov 2013 #247
Heh. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #291
But she looks like such a nice older lady snooper2 Nov 2013 #309
No shit. RiffRandell Nov 2013 #43
And a classic hit & run, to boot... opiate69 Nov 2013 #59
Yes, classic hit and run. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #97
My View Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #31
So, this clown's premise ... 99Forever Nov 2013 #36
I won't totally discount it Mojorabbit Nov 2013 #54
This thread is not talking about advertising. 99Forever Nov 2013 #60
Yes, those poor oppressed males. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #80
What is a "sex negative feminist"? And who would want to be one? Comrade Grumpy Nov 2013 #82
Sex negativism is usually a position that comodified sexuality... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #84
It sounds like "sex negative feminists" have a self-inflicted PR problem. Comrade Grumpy Nov 2013 #90
I think most rad fems like Dworkin's work. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #93
I can't say I'm surprised Major Nikon Nov 2013 #147
Yeah..you and the Meese Commission.. Upton Nov 2013 #211
Sex positive and sex negative are terms that tend to be inflammatory Major Nikon Nov 2013 #108
Who... 99Forever Nov 2013 #153
Nope, definitely don't hate men. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #157
''men's rights meet and greets''? 99Forever Nov 2013 #166
That a specific ideology does not hero worship men does not mean it hates men. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #181
Who said anything about ''worshipping men?'' Are you hallucinating? 99Forever Nov 2013 #187
Let me explain what I mean... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #189
I think you really are hallucinating. 99Forever Nov 2013 #193
"Haters gotta hate." - Fist bump bro. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #194
I'm not your "bro" and I don't "fist bump" with haters. 99Forever Nov 2013 #203
I like ranch dressing with word salad Major Nikon Nov 2013 #206
Just because you do not understand it does not mean it is word salad. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #249
I have and I know exactly what it means Major Nikon Nov 2013 #251
So calling it word salad was just your attempt at being cute. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #257
Well, you're the expert Major Nikon Nov 2013 #261
How these threads usually go: backscatter712 Nov 2013 #37
They have also started Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #39
That too! n/t backscatter712 Nov 2013 #41
Makes me wonder what cave they came from... backscatter712 Nov 2013 #45
Funny, but true. (nt) Captain Stern Nov 2013 #48
Yep. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #70
Yes. Lather, rinse, repeat. lumberjack_jeff Nov 2013 #75
Perfection acheived. Great post. nt Demo_Chris Nov 2013 #192
I was not knowing that Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #42
See my #43 response. RiffRandell Nov 2013 #44
DU juries are funny that way. I hate to use the term "PC," but... Comrade Grumpy Nov 2013 #73
Indeed, studies show that pre-1900's or so, rape never existed The Straight Story Nov 2013 #47
Right wing sources who are anti gay and anti science should not be on any DUer's Bluenorthwest Nov 2013 #51
Or as Frank Zappa once observed.... backscatter712 Nov 2013 #76
I'm watching "All About Eve" right now. Wonder when I morph into Bettee Davis. nt msanthrope Nov 2013 #154
So what exactly does or does not constitute "violent porn"? And who decides what it is exactly? Yavin4 Nov 2013 #63
Sex negative feminists will decide that for us. Comrade Grumpy Nov 2013 #89
One bit of wisdom that I remind myself of every day. ElboRuum Nov 2013 #106
What would you say if the sex negative feminist is a man? Quantess Nov 2013 #116
No. Comrade Grumpy Nov 2013 #218
"Sex negative feminists" = "the war on Christmas" nt geek tragedy Nov 2013 #119
The OP himself used the term, upthread. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #186
Tell it to Gravity Collapse. n/t Comrade Grumpy Nov 2013 #219
There are some people who do have an issue with Christmas celebrations. geek tragedy Nov 2013 #220
Of course not BainsBane Nov 2013 #297
"50 Shades of Grey" would easily fall into that Katashi_itto Nov 2013 #107
All porn is violent Major Nikon Nov 2013 #202
Liking what I have read from an author... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #250
The point is there isn't a monolithic definition for violent porn Major Nikon Nov 2013 #263
I think we can agree choking someone and calling them a whore... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #265
Should does not mean will Major Nikon Nov 2013 #276
A losing battle is still a battle worth fighting. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #284
So how does promoting junk science fit into your critical analysis scheme? Major Nikon Nov 2013 #287
Interesting sources you have there. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #71
That first source is run by the Witherspoon Institute LittleBlue Nov 2013 #72
That group is also known to fund junk science studies to support their small minded views Major Nikon Nov 2013 #110
Yay for wingnut sources! LadyHawkAZ Nov 2013 #77
Not this shit...Again. alphafemale Nov 2013 #86
You can't just deny the very existence of socialization. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #88
It's not simple, but I'm not sure how you think parroting out the works of homophobes helps Major Nikon Nov 2013 #104
"...violent pornography is comparatively rare in the real world." Totally, utterly false. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #115
Your opinion perhaps Major Nikon Nov 2013 #120
I can tell you where to go to access the largest porn websites. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #122
And all you would have done is proved the content is out there Major Nikon Nov 2013 #127
The authors said violent content is rare. I'm saying just the opposite. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #131
Good for you Major Nikon Nov 2013 #135
The study you link defines blowjobs as "aggression" Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #200
Anita Bryant claimed blowjobs were murder Major Nikon Nov 2013 #242
I think oral sex has a high likelihood of being inequitable. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #252
That's not an answer to the question. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #273
Seeing as you're talking to a "sex negative feminist", I'm fairly sure that the answer is yes. EOTE Nov 2013 #315
You make it equitable by always servicing the woman first... snooper2 Nov 2013 #310
sure I can. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #129
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence Major Nikon Nov 2013 #133
Gilbert Gottfried Reads Fifty Shades of Grey Katashi_itto Nov 2013 #109
Where can I buy the audiobook? Major Nikon Nov 2013 #112
... In_The_Wind Nov 2013 #155
For a feminist man, you are concerned with different things than I am concerned about. Quantess Nov 2013 #114
I think you're confusing me with someone else. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #117
I am against hijabs, and I am in favor of laws banning them. Quantess Nov 2013 #121
Similar to my ideas on pornography, I am not concerned with banning either. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #130
Then you seem to have contradicted yourself Major Nikon Nov 2013 #142
Very, very slowly. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #190
Can you support your own idea with anything other than useless rhetoric? Major Nikon Nov 2013 #191
Of course he can.. opiate69 Nov 2013 #195
This can't be far behind Major Nikon Nov 2013 #196
No shit.. opiate69 Nov 2013 #205
Don't forget Anita Bryant and "doctor" Laura Major Nikon Nov 2013 #207
Turns out his source and Reisman are two sides of the same coin Major Nikon Nov 2013 #283
Color me shocked! opiate69 Nov 2013 #289
Then there's this... Major Nikon Nov 2013 #292
You can go ahead an be an outspoken male feminist. Quantess Nov 2013 #150
Porn wars again? NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #132
and why wouldn't violent R rated movies also have the same symptoms, and what do you propose? lostincalifornia Nov 2013 #152
I hate porn. NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #156
Anti-pornographers love to paint their ideological opponents as porn freaks Major Nikon Nov 2013 #158
I've noticed that too. NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #161
Does this include gay porn? RandySF Nov 2013 #159
The bible furthers rape culture. n/t cynatnite Nov 2013 #160
Well I downloaded the articles with the intention of reading them tonight and commenting rrneck Nov 2013 #169
Rock and roll furthers devil worship and juvenile delinquency... Decaffeinated Nov 2013 #172
Actually a better argument Major Nikon Nov 2013 #180
That rape is decreasing doesn't mean a variable causally linked to it must also be decreasing. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #182
Nor can we simply assume that a particular variable is causally linked to it Orrex Nov 2013 #183
No one should ever -assume- causality. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #184
But that's exactly what you're doing in reply #182 and elsewhere Orrex Nov 2013 #208
I already addressed that in another post Major Nikon Nov 2013 #188
You are absolutely right. Correlation is not causation. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #201
The counter to that is that there are other factors at work Major Nikon Nov 2013 #241
I have no problem w/ porn itself. Dash87 Nov 2013 #175
Not only does an audience exist for violent porn, it is quite popular. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #185
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2013 #275
My argument has nothing to do with denying legal access to pornography. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #281
I agree with everything you've said here. In_The_Wind Nov 2013 #236
Let's go back to the 1969 Supreme Court and what followed. westerebus Nov 2013 #214
Lather, rinse, repeat Major Nikon Nov 2013 #237
I do not understand rape porn, and I wouldn't care if rape porn was taken away penultimate Nov 2013 #227
The more pornography women use, the more likely they are to be victims of non-consensual sex Major Nikon Nov 2013 #245
It has nothing to do with other factors? RandySF Nov 2013 #254
Your guess is as good as mine Major Nikon Nov 2013 #262
"Give me smut and nothing but" edbermac Nov 2013 #246
No RandySF Nov 2013 #253
Telling you the consequences of your actions... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #255
I've watched plenty of porn. RandySF Nov 2013 #256
Cool glad to know you are the final say... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #258
There's a joke here....nt PassingFair Dec 2013 #318
Is this what we're banning porn for this week? It makes violence sexy? flvegan Nov 2013 #259
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2013 #266
How tiny is this proportion, would you say? Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #267
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2013 #274
1 in 4-6 girls/women are raped. "Rapist are far and few between." seabeyond Nov 2013 #278
Rape very clearly is about sex. Otherwise, it would not involve sex. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #279
Rape is more specifically about violence Major Nikon Nov 2013 #301
""The more pornography women use, the more likely they are to be victims of non-consensual sex," Bonobo Nov 2013 #305
Sure sounds like it to me maddezmom Nov 2013 #314
 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
2. This is undoubtedly why rape is so rare in countries without pornography...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 03:09 AM
Nov 2013

Oh wait, that's exactly wrong. Sorry.

In any case, for whatever it's worth, the minute I see inflamatory, insulting, and ludicrous phrases like "rape culture" I pretty much dismiss anything further the author might have to say.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
6. "rape culture" is "inflamatory, insulting, and ludicrous phrases" wow. not even a little bit of a
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 03:46 AM
Nov 2013

surprise.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
24. Yes, that is the intent of the phrase. There might be "rape cultures"...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 05:44 AM
Nov 2013

There might be "rape cultures" somewhere, several African and Mid East nations come to mind, but you are probably not posting from one. And yes, the term is used here in an effort to provoke an irritated response or denial, as is your response to me in this thread.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
25. Yeah, because 1 out of 33 men, and 1 out of 6 women being sexually assaulted isn't rape culture
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 06:18 AM
Nov 2013

A society where 1 out of 10 teenage girls report being pressured to have sex isn't rape culture. Where rape is considered a compliment isn't rape culture. (As many a feminist have been told - "You're too fat/ugly to rape!&quot Where being raped is an added deterrent to crime - prison rape is considered additional, justified punishment - isn't rape culture. Where trying to do something about rape is prejudicial against men, even tho men are 99% of the rapists, isn't rape culture. Where women are being told to be careful about what they wear, how much they drink, where they go, because men cannot control themselves, isn't rape culture. Where women are 9 times more likely to be raped by someone they know than a stranger isn't rape culture. Where women are tasked with the burden of rape prevention, of taking self defense classes and not walking alone out in the dark and be more aware because telling men not to rape is unjust to men isn't rape culture. Elected politicians talking about legitimate rape, and rapist musicians and athletes and directors are being lauded and victims being hounded and harassed to the (literal) death and women speaking out about misogyny and receiving rape and death threats and men pasting their girlfriends heads on nude models and sending the photoshop jobs to websites and their employers and where women cannot walk past a construction site without being harassed and where a guy gets 1 year or no time in prison for raping underage girls isn't rape culture.

You know what? Being raped is just as bad whether you're in Congo or in Connecticut. The fear of rape might be easier to hide in Connecticut than in Congo, but that doesn't mean it isn't there for a great number of us. We just have to go on some of the threads here at DU to read the posts of plenty of DUers that get their rocks off by watching women being raped...oh, sorry, seemingly being raped, because of course as long as there's a disclaimer at the start of the vid it's just pretend, natch. All women don't have to be raped for them to live in a rape culture - there just have to be a constant threat of it. And that constant threat benefit men so much they are very loath to admit it exists, because then they would have to examine their privilege, and they don't like to do that. Better to keep those pesky feminists down by dismissing them out of hand, right?

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
27. ah kit. you are awesome. my son bought me a coffee drink at ten last night. 5 am here now.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:01 AM
Nov 2013

i just crawled into bed.

you must have just crawled out.

awesome woman.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
46. I had indeed just crawled out of bed.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:01 AM
Nov 2013

And was met with a typical denial of rape culture and a refusal to actually listen to women who experience it. Sharia law states outright that a woman's witness is worth just half that of a man, if that, but men in our culture just refuse to listen to women, and dismisses what she says. Of course, if we have been raped, we cannot ever participate in a discussion about rape or rape culture, because we're too emotional (read: hysterical.)

To meet this at a purportedly progressive website... I'm getting more and more disillusioned, but thank you for the cheer-up!

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
57. Using that standard you are free to call it anything you like...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:00 PM
Nov 2013

Including such labels as Christian Conservative Culture, Welfare Culture, Women's Empowerment Through Education Culture, Reproductive Rights Culture, Male Persecution Through Incarceration Culture... you name it, it probably fits your rather loose standard.

But I will leave it up to you to prove your claim. Here's my challenge to you and the reader:

Name even a single movie in which the hero is a rapist, or in which rape is promoted as acceptable, or in which even domestic violence is promoted as noble behavior. I suspect you cannot.

Now name a movie in which the rapist is condemned or punished for his crime. You have already thought of one.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
64. Off the top of my head....
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:22 PM
Nov 2013

A History of Violence - Maria Bello's character runs from her husband, he grabs her, pulls her down and rapes her. It is presented as fight f&%#ing, of course, but that is just one example of "sex" where the man overpowers a woman and she is supposed to like it.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
66. Not to mention
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:27 PM
Nov 2013
Tyson - the biopic of a real rapist, who also got a cameo in a Judd Apatow movie, but since it's a dude-bro movie, that's ok, right?

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
197. did the guy end up having sex with the 13 yr old in animal house? cant remember. they were
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 02:41 AM
Nov 2013

encouraging him to rape her while she was unconscious???

zappaman

(20,606 posts)
225. no he did not.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 02:14 PM
Nov 2013

he was alone with her and a devil popped up on one shoulder while an angel popped up on the other.
you can guess what each urged him to do.
in the end, he did not have sex with her.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
226. do we know that? or just assuming cause that is what we want? wasnt it left to us to figure? and...
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 02:18 PM
Nov 2013

didnt he later have sex with the 13 yr old on the football field? and wouldnt that be rape thru lack of consent with age?

i really do not remember. has been a couple decades since seeing.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
240. She was 13. He was over 18. Even during that time it would be rape, right. She was unable to consent
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 07:27 PM
Nov 2013

Cause of age. Did he do her?

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
269. Not trying to derail..
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 12:48 AM
Nov 2013

but just watched "The Haunting Of... Patrick Muldoon"...in this episode Frank Zappa's ghost came through to the medium..It's the first time I have seen an episode of "The Haunting Of...", when Zappa was being channeled I thought the whole show had to be parody...apparently it isn't sold that way..

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
303. Yeah,
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 09:14 AM
Nov 2013

I couldn't remember how they were related..just that it was about one of Zappa's kids having difficulties having a baby and Frank telling the medium that he (Frank) "is working on it"...LOL

zazen

(2,978 posts)
65. Gone with the Wind? Tie me Up, tie me Down?
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:27 PM
Nov 2013

A Doris Day/Rock Hudson madcap bedroom romp?

There has definitely been progress in the past 10 years in raising awareness in Hollywood such that you probably don't see rape, coercion, pressure, etc., glorified. I'm grateful for that.

The pervasiveness of violent internet porn and its effects on pubescent kids, in addition to the harms against those used in its making in the first place, are still of great concern.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
68. Yeah, Gone With the Wind is a good example
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:31 PM
Nov 2013

It was just natural to put wives in their places - and it wasn't rape when you were married to your rapist. Of course, you still have countries, even in Europe., where if the rapist marries his victim it isn't considered rape.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
67. Oh, and then you have to mention Roman Polanski
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:29 PM
Nov 2013

but we can all agree that 13-year old girls are proper sacrifices for the great artists.

 

phil89

(1,043 posts)
285. Goldfinger
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 02:16 AM
Nov 2013

In Goldfinger (1965), James Bond raped Pussy Galore, and it even converted her from lesbian to heterosexual.

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
295. The entire genre of rape porn
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 04:42 AM
Nov 2013


Africa Erotica
Asian Uncensored Rape – caribean (apparently spelling isn't a requirement for titling rape porn)
Capture Of 6 Shibuya Gals

Brutal Japanese rape water torture
Hell Hath No Fury
Rape Zombie – Lust Of The Dead
The Serial Rape-Murderer
Women of Valour CD1
Verzurrt And Gefickt
Fetish FAQ Chapter One
Princess Donna Day Two
The Perverted Side Of Sin
Initiation Of Claire Castel
Live-In Slave 4
Cellar Of Punishment
Bitch In A Boot
Sgt. Major – Bondage Classics 3
Humiliee Et Abusee – Sur Son Lieu De Travail
Breaking All Ties
Crimson Chess Dungeon
Sex Slave Debbie
Slave 2
Bizarre Games
Big Tom
秘密潜入捜査官 板垣あずさ 凌辱拘束尋問アクメ 板垣あずさ Azusa Itagaki
MAD-177 MAD GAME 7TH 美少女巨乳編 桐谷ユリア Yuria Kiritani – HD
極・縛馬 其の二 一ノ瀬アメリ Ameri Ichinose STM-016 – HD

極・縛馬 其の八 春日由依 Yui Kasuga STM-049
Altar Of Lust 1971
Asalto y violacion en la calle 69 1991
Bad Girls Go To Hell 1965
Beautiful Teacher In Torture Hell 1985
Beauty’s Exotic Dance Torture! 1977
Behind Locked Doors 1968
Black city 1982
Bleading Lady 2010
Black Blooded Brides of Satan 2009


That is about 10% of the films listed on one website. I could go on all night.
There are hundreds of thousands if not millions.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
302. I'd like to point out that
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 06:52 AM
Nov 2013

美少女巨乳編 桐谷ユリア

Means:

Yuria Kiritani: Young woman with beautiful big breasts version

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
300. I guess someone never took anthro in college
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 06:06 AM
Nov 2013

You have been checkmated on your challenge. Epic fail.

Dash87

(3,220 posts)
61. How is that? It's a description of an ailment in our culture, not saying everyone is a rapist.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:09 PM
Nov 2013

The term "rape culture" means that we live in a culture where rape is excused or accepted. Everyone is affected by the rape culture, even if by subtle ways. Not everybody in the rape culture is a rapist. In fact, there doesn't have to be that many rapists for there to be a rape culture - it's the attitudes society has about rape that make a rape culture, not the rapists themselves.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
98. You believe rape is excused and accepted?
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 06:02 PM
Nov 2013

I understand that this is politically correct and sensitive to say, but it's also silly. Let's consider...

No one rational would claim that we have a "Gay Culture" here in America, yet the media is absolutely filled with positive homosexual role models, prominent public figures (including right wingers like Dick Cheney) regularly speak out in favor of gay rights and equal treatment, public sentiment is rapidly swinging towards complete acceptance, and a wave of gay rights legislation is sweeping the nation. But it's damn sure not a Gay Rights Culture. Not yet.

Now compare all that with the crime of rape. Pretty important word in that last sentence, right? None of these things are happening with regards to rape or violence against women. Politicians and actors are not taking to the stage to extoll the virtues of rape, you don't see heroic characters on television getting in a quick round of wife beating set to canned laughter, the public overwhelmingly rejects real violence against anyone at all -- let alone women, and rape is widely considered one of the most horrific crimes imaginable. Nor are ANY states rushing to legalize any of it and if a politician even proposed something that batshit crazy they would be out of office before the week was out. Our society rejects rape. Period. We like our cars and our wars and our fast food and our guns, and you could say that any of these things define our culture. But rape? Not even close.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
100. Did you just claim that America is positive to homosexuality?
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 06:23 PM
Nov 2013

Wow, I wish I lived in the same world you did!

the media is absolutely filled with positive homosexual role models, prominent public figures (including right wingers like Dick Cheney) regularly speak out in favor of gay rights and equal treatment, public sentiment is rapidly swinging towards complete acceptance, and a wave of gay rights legislation is sweeping the nation. But it's damn sure not a Gay Rights Culture. Not yet.


Media filled with positive homosexual role models.... conservatives speaking out positively for gays... gay rights legislation sweeping the nation...

Now I understand why you cannot see that you live in a society that has a rape culture - you live in Neverland!
 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
139. approaching attractive women and offering 50 bucks for a bj is respecting women.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:09 PM
Nov 2013

and there you go.

Dash87

(3,220 posts)
167. You make the false assumption that cultural problems must be in the open to exist.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:11 PM
Nov 2013

Our rape culture is quite the opposite - while rape is mostly condemned in the US, there's also a quiet acceptance of it. Rape victims are often bullied and not believed - even by the police. We're still a slut-shaming culture with a "boys will be boys" attitude. You may not see rape openly laughed at on TV, but being a victim and trying to get justice is a whole different story. The rape victim is always on trial too - sometimes even more than the rapist.

PassingFair

(22,434 posts)
316. Not only excused and accepted.
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 11:50 AM
Dec 2013

Some people don't even SEE it when it's right in front of them!

Imagine that!

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
313. You know what's really insulting?
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 11:38 AM
Nov 2013

Rape. And I could give a rat's ass if you feel insulted. I feel insulted by your willful denial of reality.


Rape culture is a concept that links rape and sexual violence to the culture of a society,[1] and in which prevalent attitudes and practices normalize, excuse, tolerate, and even condone rape.[2]
Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, and trivializing rape.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
298. To men who don't want to be exposed to discussions of rape
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 05:47 AM
Nov 2013

except in the form of pornography for their own arousal. They have turned denying reality into an art.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
40. that is the same argument 2Aers put forth ...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:56 AM
Nov 2013

it bemuses me that one would pick rape porn as the nail to drive home the issue of the 1st amendment.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
126. true. it is so fuckin popular to treat all women as prostitutes, offer them 50 for a bj
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:39 PM
Nov 2013

and screw her, and the very popular opinion on du that no one should feel ick, shame a man or value judge the man buying little girls used underwear in a vending machine.

we get the gest of your "popular" beliefs.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
165. it won't last ... the ACLU is not stupid ...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 10:58 PM
Nov 2013

sex with children is illegal ergo child porn is illegal.
murder is illegal ergo snuff porn is illegal.
rape is illegal ergo rape porn ____________________________ .


Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
168. The ACLU doesn't defend rapists
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:13 PM
Nov 2013

They defend free speech which may include depictions of rape. You may think it's abhorrent, but so are Nazis, Rush Limbaugh, and lots of other people that the ACLU has defended. Once you go down the road of suppressing free speech based on the flimsiest of evidence, there is no end to it. It doesn't take a porn freak or a Nazi to understand that.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
170. you are really passionate for all this rape porn. -
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:17 PM
Nov 2013

and itis akin to yelling house on fire false alarm. you don't think so but, it is. hide and watch. it will happen. the ACLU will figure it out. They are not stupid and they are already working to figure out how to get out of this.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
177. your passion for this subject is boundless -
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:35 PM
Nov 2013

watch all the soon to be illegal rape porn you want.
if that is what it takes for you to get off, more power to you.

that you choose this battle as your choice and path in life?

cool beans, dude.

I wish you love and light, peace and happiness.

Good night.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
178. The point of my post is that your response is highly predictable
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:43 PM
Nov 2013

If I wanted to be just as disingenuous, I could say that by defending this OP, you are supporting homophobes which is actually far closer to reality given that the Witherspoon Institute is a front group for the worst sort of haters. However, it's been my experience that those who employ guilt by association fallacies rarely accept mirror arguments.

Cheers!

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
231. You are trying to put words in my mouth that I never said.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 05:47 PM
Nov 2013

Understand this: I don't care what you do, what you watch, or who you do it with.

I care so little about your thoughts, desires and/or, needs -- you can not even begin to fathom how little I care about your thoughts and/or opinions on this or any other subject. You are a grown man. You need, want, desire nothing from me.

Just stay away from me. period.

End of discussion.

End of whatever DU back and forth we ever had ... forever.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
232. The implication was obvious or you wouldn't have mentioned it to begin with
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 06:09 PM
Nov 2013

Claiming otherwise is simply being disingenuous and furthermore you did it again in the very same message you claimed you weren't doing it. Seems like the need is to pathologize those who don't agree with you rather than trying to engage in substantive discussion. If that's the case you're doing us both a favor by not engaging.

Just sayin'

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
233. AFAIAC you and I have agreed to disagree about this subject. No Big Deal.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 06:34 PM
Nov 2013

There is no substantive discussion to be had between you and I.
As for the rest of what you have to say to me, why bother?

Seems like you are taking my inventory based on the fact that I don't care for rape porn and you do.

Go find some other woman to play those games with you.
I am given to understand there are many (some right here on DU) who would love to live out a rape fantasy.

I conceded several posts back that I will not change you mind about it. I have no power to change the laws today or tomorrow.

So, I really do not get why you are being so insistent about this subject with me.

What is it with you - that you continue this subthread. Makes no sense to me.


Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
235. ...
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 06:55 PM
Nov 2013

Me:

Anti-pornographers love to paint their ideological opponents as porn freaks...I could give a shit less if all porn disappeared tomorrow and never returned


You:
you are really passionate for all this rape porn


Me:
Anti-pornographers love to paint their ideological opponents as porn freaks...I could give a shit less if all porn disappeared tomorrow and never returned


You:
your passion for this subject is boundless -


Me:
The point of my post is that your response is highly predictable


You:
You are trying to put words in my mouth that I never said


You:
I don't care for rape porn and you do.


Put words in the mouth of someone else while simultaneously and erroneously claiming someone else is putting words in yours.

Brilliant!

Now we are done, or at least I am and unlike you I can assure you that I mean it. Feel free to continue to be duplicitous.

Cheers!

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
238. You sure like to argue FOR something that you claim to not give a shit about and
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 07:07 PM
Nov 2013

that is why YOU are the duplicitous ONE.

not ME.

really, I am to believe that somehow mine and your 1st amendment rights are being eroded if this one small subset of supposedly fictional porn is to be regulated and or outlawed.

I am leaving for work shortly.


Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #231)

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
243. Yet you have no issues with those who post homophobic sources the SPLC says fund junk science
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 08:42 PM
Nov 2013

Organized by:

The Research Program on Family, Marriage, and Democracy of the Witherspoon Institute


Questions were also raised about Regnerus’ motives, seeing as how he’d accepted almost $700,000 for the study from the Witherspoon Institute, a think tank that opposes same-sex marriage and includes fellows like Robert George, one of the founders of NOM. The Bradley Foundation, another conservative think tank, gave over $60,000. Most recently, documents obtained by the American Independent suggest that Regnerus’ funders choreographed the timing of the study’s release to influence “major decisions of the Supreme Court.” The court this spring heard both the DOMA case and another involving an anti-gay marriage California referendum.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2013/summer/suspect-science

Robert George and NOM:
National Organization for Marriage
Princeton, N.J.

The National Organization for Marriage (NOM), which is dedicated to fighting same-sex marriage in state legislatures, was organized in 2007 by conservative syndicated columnist Maggie Gallagher and Princeton University politics professor Robert George. George is an influential Christian thinker who co-authored the 2009 “Manhattan Declaration,” a manifesto developed after a New York meeting of conservative church leaders that “promises resistance to the point of civil disobedience against any legislation that might implicate their churches or charities in abortion, embryo-destructive research or same sex marriage.”

NOM’s first public campaign was in 2008, supporting California’s Proposition 8, which sought to invalidate same-sex marriage in that state.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/winter/the-hard-liners

Just sayin'



EOTE

(13,409 posts)
312. But we're talking about people who want to ban porn that doesn't feature actual rape.
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 11:27 AM
Nov 2013

Snuff features ACTUAL killing. Child porn features ACTUAL children. No one is suggesting that film portrayals of actual rape be legal, yet these threads don't go more than a few posts before someone makes the extremely dishonest and stupid assertion that there are people here who want to see actual rapes. Considering that we've had dozens of these threads and stupid suggestions like that are incessantly thrown about, you've lost on numerous counts. Maybe try having a discussion without relying solely on strawmen and maybe you'll get somewhere.

PassingFair

(22,434 posts)
317. Should cartoons of children being raped be legal then?
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 11:55 AM
Dec 2013

Cause that's the argument you're making.

I would run from someone I knew got off on seeing children abused in cartoons.

I would run from someone I knew got off on seeing women abused in movies.

EOTE

(13,409 posts)
319. There should be NO cartoons which are illegal.
Mon Dec 30, 2013, 10:13 AM
Dec 2013

What you are suggesting is a thought crime. How are you supposed to know when the cartoon is a child? Are you going to bring out doctors in court explaining to juries how old cartoons are? Making such things illegal would be horrifically awful. You probably should run from someone who would watch such cartoons, but making them illegal would be even sicker.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
113. People who sneer at the term 'rape culture' perpetrate it quite often
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:17 PM
Nov 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1018&pid=386327

Confidence with women, like anything in life, just takes a little practice. Fortunately there are quite a few women out there to practice on. So turn on your brain and apply it to the problem. Instead of trying to do what everyone says you are supposed to do, instead do what WORKS -- in your case that would be the opposite of what hasn't worked thus far. Talk to every attractive woman you see. Say hello, ask them out to coffee, offer them a fifty for a blow job. Whatever. Go ahead and fuck up, it's okay -- there are a hundred million more of them so who the hell cares. Stop giving a damn what they think. Stop CARING so damn much, stop liking them and worshipping them. Fuck that, if they want to be treated well they can damn well earn it.

If you are having trouble finding the confidence to get started, that's easy to fix too. PRETEND. You think Brad Pitt is really as "cool" as he seems in the movies? You think Tom Cruise really does the impossible? Hell no. It's called acting. So the next time you're feeling nervous ACT like one of these guys. Ask yourself how James Bond would ask out this woman, and do that. Believe it or not, that's how you build successful habits. And for Cthuhlu's sake don't fall in love with the first chick that you win. You're a wolf, a predator, so keep hunting.
 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
123. yes. treat every attractive woman as a prostitute. really... it will be fun. yes.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:37 PM
Nov 2013

fuck the woman... care? snort. fuck her. treat her like a thing to be used.

i suppose she "earns" it by giving a stranger a bj and taking the 50. that is this posters interpretation of women earning respect. totally amazing

oh wait. that is along the lines of lecturing duers that grown men buy girls soiled underwear in a vending machine should be approached with out and ick factor. you know, no shaming. do NOT hold any value judgment. cause grown men getting off sniffy girls used underwear is a good thing.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
124. Don't forget treating women as prey during the 'hunt'
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:38 PM
Nov 2013

Same person who said feminists were the same as Fred Phelps.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
128. and he fuckin sits here on du.... with no qualms getting his posts hidden or addressed by
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:40 PM
Nov 2013

administration. suggesting treating ALL women as prostitutes is not misogyny?

clue me in. what am i missing.

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
299. What country would that be?
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 06:01 AM
Nov 2013

Where is there no pornography?

A person has to be willfully oblivious to not figure out we live in a rape culture. But then if someone's advice to a friend looking to find a partner is to start offering women $10 for a bj, that says a great deal about how they view women. Rape culture is blaming a victim for her own rape, shaming her on social media to the point she commits suicide. Rape culture is a 4% conviction rape for rapists. It's 30 day sentences for child rapists and no prison time for raping a 13 yr old girl, with a judge calling her the "predator." Rape culture is the eroticization of rape through brutal pornography. Rape culture is men who insist on silencing women about rape. Rape culture is victim blaming and people who think the most offensive thing about rape is not the effect of the crime on victims, but that they might see women write about "rape culture." How awful for you. The trauma of being confronted with a woman who speaks her mind truly is awful.

Mix all that in with opposition to those radical EEOC laws passed decades ago, that's the trifecta.

The only thing ludicrous is your insistence on denying the most obvious reality. The question is why?




 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
3. The pervasive theme of stalking and killing women in popular entertainment is harmful too
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 03:10 AM
Nov 2013

So many movies and TV shows have men kidnaping, stalking, and killing women, even if there is not sexual violence involved. It normalizes violence against women in general by men.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
26. And on top of it...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 06:46 AM
Nov 2013

These situations are usually utilized not as a point of horror for the victim, but as a call to action for the male protagonist. "Someone killed my girlfriend, now I'm out for revenge." It casts the woman not only as an object to be acted upon, but as literal property of her male other.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
28. clint eastwood, always stopping a rape or getting the rapist. how many movies of his....
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:03 AM
Nov 2013

had an almost rape or rape.

i swear that man was obsessed with rape.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
30. Well, there were only two roles for women in that period of westerns
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:12 AM
Nov 2013

Either they could be the victim, or they could be the reward. And since the whole idea of "Gritty westerns" was to abolish the "fairy tale" vibe of older films, the latter was actually kind of rare, leaving all the weight in the "victim" category.

The abused woman was basically scenery; she served to tell the audience that this was a dangerous and morally void society where life and honor are both cheap - again, as a direct challenge to the earlier works in the genre, with white hats and silver stars. With the abused woman in this role, you didn't have to put any writing into setting the environment, you didn't have to establish, you just had to have a victim get victimized and that was it.

Basically rape was utilized for budget concerns and to spare the audience about twenty minutes of exposition and development.

Adsos Letter

(19,459 posts)
79. "Sudden Impact"
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:05 PM
Nov 2013
Sudden Impact (1983)

Rape was at the core of the plot. He directed that one. In this case the protagonist was female (Sondra Locke) and rape (gang rape in this case) was the motivation to a bunch of extrajudicial killing.

Now that I think of it, Gran Torino (which he also directed) used sexual assault as the final straw which motivated his ultimate act.

Both films used sexual assault as a vehicle for commentary on the perceived failure of the justice system, which was, I think, the main point of the Dirty Harry series.

To me those plot devices make no sense if they can't produce outrage, and a feeling of vengeance in the target audience (and I suspect the target demographic for the Dirty Harry movies was male).

Kind of went off on a tangent with this one, quite normal for me...

Adsos Letter

(19,459 posts)
96. Yup, forgot about that one.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 05:50 PM
Nov 2013

Eastwood saw the president murder a woman.

Thanks for your posts seabeyond. I don't always agree with everything but they always make me think.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
209. The choking in "Absolute Power" was a consensual act gone very wrong
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:40 AM
Nov 2013

For that reason, I don't think that it fits the message that you're going for.

You might instead consider Tightrope, a non-Dirty-Harry film about a cop tracking a murderer of prostitutes who may or may not be the cop himself.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
210. i know there are others... but i havent seen all of his. play misty was the flip side
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:01 PM
Nov 2013

Last edited Sun Nov 24, 2013, 01:32 PM - Edit history (1)

i knew absolute was not quite there, but kinda border... as you say, started with concent, ended in abuse, attempted rape and death

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
212. not in the book it wasn't
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:40 PM
Nov 2013

The film was based on the book written by David Balducci. Though the sex was consensual the violence was not. I'm glad I never saw the film. Clint Eastwood in the role of the burglar that witnesses the incident would have ruined the story for me.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
215. actually he "spanked" her once and she let it go. the second time, wasnt it? escalated
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 01:34 PM
Nov 2013

the violence, her trying to get away. so no. the abuse was not consent, really, at any point.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
222. I believe that you're correct.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 02:02 PM
Nov 2013

Not sure what movie I was thinking of, but now that you mention it, Hackman's character wound up stabbing her to death with a letter opener because she resisted him.

My mistake entirely.

[font color="red"]ETA: The film was Crichton's largely forgettable Rising Sun[/font]

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
223. What about it?
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 02:03 PM
Nov 2013

There's no point to be made since Eastwood had nothing to do with how that was written. That was Balducci who wrote the book the film is based on. All Eastwood did was make a movie of a book that was a huge bestseller. The attempted rape and murder by the secret service that the character of the burglar witnesses was the point here, and since Eastwood had nothing to do with that there's no connection in this argument about Eastwood - it WASN'T Eastwood's concept but Balducci's who conceived the idea and wrote it.

Threedifferentones

(1,070 posts)
91. Your points are well taken, but let us not forget:
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:58 PM
Nov 2013

Westerns are set in the past. And in the past even more so than the present women really were treated as property. While there are many examples of women in history who took an active role in public life, the norm and the usual cultural expectation was that they would be passed from man to man, at best from loving father to loving husband. That sort of oppressive patriarchy really did dictate the lives of the vast majority of women.

So, those movies can also be seen as exposing an outdated, cruel and stupidly backwards way of thinking, if one looks at them from a slightly different angle, so to speak.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
217. Well, now, the Western portrays a view of masculinity
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 01:47 PM
Nov 2013

that is clearly meant to be admired and that includes treating women as property. The good women are usually killed at the beginning, as an impetus for the hero (this is called fridging them, as it is a very typical trope) and any other good women are prostitutes or nuns. Whore or madonna, anyone? Not the healthiest view of women. And these films show values that culture thinks is good or important for men - willing to do violence when "necessary", not talking about ones feelings, being a lone wolf, breaking rules should they be too cumbersome etc. John Wayne and Clint Eastwood portray a really warped view on what it means to be a man, but they have impacted whole generations of men.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
221. yup. and not the reality of the west. those women were as tough and worked as hard... as any man.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 01:57 PM
Nov 2013

while having babies, lol

Response to seabeyond (Reply #28)

Joel thakkar

(363 posts)
32. another point of view
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:42 AM
Nov 2013

""Someone killed my girlfriend, now I'm out for revenge."


" It casts the woman not only as an object to be acted upon, but as literal property of her male other." -

while i agree with your point of view...it is mainly seen as "you took someone i love..now i will took someone you love or may be i will directly kill you"

I agree that in real world, no one will literally start killing other person in that situation. It is over the top..but most of the films are same like that nowadays.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
4. Interesting. The Social Costs of Pornography is a project of the Witherspoon Institute.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 03:43 AM
Nov 2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witherspoon_Institute

Founded in 2003 by Robert P. George and others,[3][4][2] the institute is named after John Witherspoon.[1] It shares many scholars with the James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions.[2] Fellows include Chen Guangcheng, Harold James, John Joseph Haldane, W. Bradford Wilcox, and James R. Stoner, Jr.[5]

The Witherspoon Institute opposes same-sex marriage[6] and deals with embryonic stem cell research, constitutional law, and globalization.[2] In 2003, it organized a conference on religion in modern societies.[7] In 2006, Republican Senator Sam Brownback cited a Witherspoon document called Marriage and the Public Good: Ten Principles in a debate over a constitutional amendment against same-sex marriage.[2] It held a conference about pornography at Princeton University in December 2008.[citation needed]

Financially independent from Princeton University, its donors have included the Bradley Foundation, the John M. Olin Foundation, the John Templeton Foundation, and the Lee and Ramona Bass Foundation.[2]

The institute publishes an online journal called Public Discourse: Ethics, Law, and the Common Good.[8]

_________

This is a really conservative bunch, and just look at the donor foundations. Strange bedfellows we have here.

Joel thakkar

(363 posts)
35. No It doesn't matter to us
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:18 AM
Nov 2013

We will support our argument with a right-wing institute research who opposes Same-sex marriage, abortion, Stem-cell research, who constantly attack LBGT Families with their fake research studies, promotes globalization etc,,,...but yeah....they support a BAN on pornography...so yeah...they must have done this research correctly as this is our argument. Who cares about what they have stand on abortion...it is just a nonsensical feminist and women rights issue...we just care about banning porn...it doesn't matter if they have done 100s of fake research studies..they have done this study correctly and scientifically...it should be banned..

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
78. The link is of little concern. The paper is what's important.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 03:54 PM
Nov 2013

And the paper, I believe, is not directly attributable to the Witherspoon institute. They simply linked to it.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
83. Well, no. Obviously not. Sex negativism has a strange cross over...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:11 PM
Nov 2013

With social conservatives even though radical feminists can absolutely be antiporn. Or, at least, against pornography in its current state.

I don't know much about the researcher who published the paper in the OP. But upon checking her university credentials, they seemed legitimate.

Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #83)

Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #272)

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
286. There's a false belief that disinterest in science is a reality.
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 02:17 AM
Nov 2013

When nothing could be further from the truth. Even scientific fields considered rather straight forward, like physics, are rife with bias and agenda.

Joel thakkar

(363 posts)
85. But why did you select a right wing source
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:23 PM
Nov 2013

Also you quoted 4 paragraphs from it.

Also the research is done by Mary Anne Layden who is a long known anti-porn activist and also is a member of Anti-pornography organization...Of-course she will be non-biased while creating her report...

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
87. I didn't knowingly link to a right wing website.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:30 PM
Nov 2013

Everyone is bias. The paper is an opinionated explanation using relevant studies. Anti pornography is not always bad.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
244. Your sources are the worst sort of shitbags
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 09:28 PM
Nov 2013

The Witherspoon Institute is a homophobic shitbag organization which includes links to Prop 8 campaigns and funding homophobic junk science.

The anti-pornographer who authored your study said, and I shit you not, that the more porn women watch, the more likely they are to be raped.

And you write this sort of tripe off as "everyone has bias"



So whether you didn't know about it or not, you certainly didn't self-delete once you did know about it.

Very telling that.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
248. Self deleting would make it seem as though I'm hiding it.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:25 PM
Nov 2013

Either way, I lose and there will be someone complaining.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
260. Suit yourself
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 11:17 PM
Nov 2013

Kinda shows what passes for knowledge by you so long as it coincides with your ideology. Amazing you'd think you are so well read on the subject. The same author describes a study in which a rat evidently died of erotoxins from pleasuring itself to death, compares porn to crack, is a slut-shamer and ally of Judith Reisman, another far right wing purveyer of junk science who peddle their idiocy in hopes of receiving millions in grant money from Republican members of congress so they can fund more of their shit for brains studies. But hey, everyone is biased, right? It's all good.

Internet pornography is the new crack cocaine, leading to addiction, misogyny, pedophilia, boob jobs and erectile dysfunction, according to clinicians and researchers. Mary Anne Layden, one of the managers of the Sexual Trauma and Psychopathology Program of the University of Pennsylvania calls internetporn 'one of the largest dangers for mental health at the moment'.

Dr. Mary Anne Layden explained how a pornographic image is burned into the brain's pathways. "That image is in your brain forever," she explained. "If that was an addictive substance, you, at any point for the rest of your life, could in a nanosecond draw it up." Dr. Judith Reisman, president of the Institute for Media Education, called on the Senate to take action against pornography, saying it's time to mandate that law enforcement begin to collect all data and pornographic materials found in the possession of anyone involved in criminal activity. Doing so, she added, would yield data showing whether pornography is being used as a how-to manual for sex crimes.

Jeffrey Satinover, a psychiatrist and advisor to the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality echoed Layden's concern about the internet and the somatic effects of pornography. "Pornography really does, unlike other addictions, biologically cause direct release of the most perfect addictive substance," Satinover said. "That is, it causes masturbation, which causes release of the naturally occurring opioids. It does what heroin can't do, in effect."


Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
264. No my point is deleting a thread now would appear rather low.
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 12:16 AM
Nov 2013

And, like I said, there's always someone who will be unhappy.

I haven't posted anything suggesting erotoxins exist. That premise sounds quite absurd. Nor have I stated pornography should be banned. Nor have I stated masturbation is addictive or bad in any way.

I am deeply critical of modern pornography as a conduit for overt sexism and racism.

You have an agenda easily as strong as mine. So don't try to feed me a pile of garbage that this is a crusade against incorrect sources. It's not. I know the ideology you espouse. I know what you have to say on the subject. I know you think systemic sexism is a myth. So your attempts to conflate my ideological beliefs with homophobia or antisex sentiment are at face value utter BS.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
271. I know you try to pass off junk science
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 12:56 AM
Nov 2013

All I really know about you is the sources you reference, and you obviously know next to nothing about me or what I believe. Whether you realize it or not, it is possible to believe in the idea of "systemic sexism" without being an anti-pornographer. Many are, including many feminists. Since this concept seems to be foreign to you it only goes to show how much you don't know, but think you do.

If you value your own relevance, you should either check your sources, or at the very least acknowledge that they are bogus when such things are pointed out. If you want to continue to defend them, be my guest. You aren't the first anti-pornographer to channel far right wing garbage and I'm sure you won't be the last. And whether you realize it or not there's a lot of it out there which masquarades as legit and does come from right wing homophobic/misogynist sources as you have discovered. You can either learn from that or stand a good chance of repeating your mistake. However the body of real evidence that's out there does not support your assertions, so I'm not sure you'll be happy with that either.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
308. "a study in which a rat evidently died of erotoxins from pleasuring itself to death"
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 11:07 AM
Nov 2013

REALLY!



DU seems to be very enlightening today LOL

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
280. Just for information sake, here's how you handle that.
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 02:06 AM
Nov 2013

You copy the OP into a post, then self-delete the OP. That way at least the record is intact, no one can claim it said anything it didn't, but the thread is shut down.

Lancero

(3,003 posts)
5. All things considered...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 03:45 AM
Nov 2013

If rape porn makes rapists, then violent video games make murders.

If rape porn makes rapists, then violent movies make murders.

If rape porn makes rapists, then violent music makes murders.

If rape porn makes rapists, then...

You get my point.

Edit - In case you don't, it's that if you give credence to one form of entertainment (And I use this term loosely, but focused toward simulated rape porn between two consenting adults) causing a specific form of violence (IE - Rape porn creating rapists) then you also give credence to to any argument that fulfills the same basis - That is, a specific form of entertainment, causing a specifc (but relatable) action. In this case, violent video games (where you can kill simulated characters) would create murders.

Lancero

(3,003 posts)
12. Look at our history...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:08 AM
Nov 2013

All the wars we have fought. How many have died in those wars - How many have been killed. Look throughout our history - Of all the murders committed.

I don't know about you, but that would point to a natural, and instinctive, desire to kill each other.

In any event, it's not our nature or instincts that determine who we are - Its how well we can control them.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
13. we easily recognize murder is wrong. we do not even suggest sex is wrong. but a healthy part of
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:11 AM
Nov 2013

who we are.

you are really going to argue that you see no difference between the two?

i am tired of people arguing so strongly a flawed argument when it is staring at them in the face.

if you cannot even acknowledge the difference between sex and murder, then done. there is no reasonable exchange of conversation and a waste of time.

Lancero

(3,003 posts)
17. Rape is...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:37 AM
Nov 2013

Sex between two people. Forceful and without consent, but still sex.

So does this make rape a healthy part of who we are? Or do we recognize that this form of sex is wrong, and not a healthy part of who we are?

That said, their once was a time when we considered murder to be right. Do the Crusades ring a bell? You know - To kill a heretic is not murder? At this point in our history, we considered the murder of some to be right.

We've grown since those times and can now recognize murder as wrong, but if your going to argue that "we can easily recognize a action as wrong" then how can you explain that our species once considered that action, in some cases, to be right?

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
18. that being said? you are still going to bring that into it?
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:41 AM
Nov 2013

now. define rape. is it really rape. was she asking for it. doesnt he deserve it, he paid for dinner. girls no really means yes. give her plenty of booze, then he will get it. he is married to her, she has to give it to him. she dressed like she wanted it. doesnt a man have to coerce, that really isnt rape. she was unconscious, she didnt say no. she was asleep, she didnt say no. so she is 12, she was taunting me. she wanted it.

need i go on and on. in a rape culture that continually promotes rape.

Response to Lancero (Reply #17)

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
103. and that is the issue with blurring the line between sex and rape. hence rape fantasy that is
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 06:49 PM
Nov 2013

nothing to do with rape. why call it a "rape" fantasy, when it is all bout scripting a bunch of role play to have sex? but, we blur the line with sex with rape. that is where the issue is and my point.

sex is natural. but then throwing in rape as a norm, with all kinds of cutsey ways to make it fun ect....

where as murder... is murder. clearly a wrong

and ya, ... for those that want to pull away from a general discussion, with all things there are exceptions.

you are taking a very natural part of who we are

with murder you are not taking a very natural part of who we are

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
134. I'm not sure that murder isn't a natural part of who we are
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:53 PM
Nov 2013

It's certainly been a part of who we are as a species for as far back as we're able to determine. If it's not a "natural" part of us, then what is it?

I am also not yet persuaded that the portrayal of a fantasy version of a thing necessarily leads to an acceptance or normalization of the real version of that thing. Violent video games are the classic example; everyone I know has played them, and some of those people--both male and female--play them for literally hours each day. None of those people has committed assault as a result, much less murder, and these are first-person shooter games that they're playing. If an immersive you-are-there fantasy simulation doesn't lead to a real-world manifestation of a behavior, then I'm skeptical that a third-party portrayal of a fantasy simulation would more readily compel someone to act out the fantasy.

Further, to the extent that a person would act out the fantasy at all, it seems more likely to me (though I disclaim that I have no supporting data) that the person would seek out others with compatible fantasies, rather than imposing those fantasies upon unwilling victims.

This assumes a stable mind, of course. An unstable mind might indeed be more inclined to act out upon a victim, but that's a problem with the person rather than the fantasy medium.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
137. By that logic, homosexuality is unnatural
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:01 PM
Nov 2013

By that same logic, the following are also unnatural:
Veganism
Artistic ability
Brown hair
Straight teeth
Gender equality

An act or characteristic or behavior need not be universal (nor even widespread) in order to be natural.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
140. In a nutshell, yes. We also eat, drink, and excrete.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:11 PM
Nov 2013

We could also look a bit deeper and observe that not everything that is natural is good, just as not everything that is unnatural is bad, though it can be argued that, as natural beings, anything that humans do is by definition natural.

It's certainly a hell of a lot more complicated than "rape porn leads to rape."

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
141. the vast majority of us do not murder nor have the impulse to murder. but you demand we assume the
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:14 PM
Nov 2013

role

adn you put that along side of all people eating, drinking, breathing air and having sex.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
143. That's simply a lie. I made no such demand.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:17 PM
Nov 2013

I assert that murder (and, by extension, violence in general) is a part of who we are as a species, at least insofar as it has always been evident in our species. The trait need not manifest in every member of the species in order to be natural; that would be a preposterous demand, as evidenced by the list of by-your-logic "unnatural" aspects of humanity that I provided.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
144. i will leave alone and let others perceive the disagreement. you put murder along with eating,
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:21 PM
Nov 2013

drinking and shitting.

i repeated it.

you say i lie.

i do not know how, but, hardly a lie if that is what i read in your posts.

thanks for that jab

done

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
145. The lie is that you stated that I demanded that we all murder. I did not.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:27 PM
Nov 2013

In fact, I glibly accepted your summary of my argument--a summary that you perhaps intended as ironic but which winds up being rather close to demonstrable reality.

Let us reformulate your summation this way: eating, elimination, procreation/fornication, and interaction--both violent and non-violent--are part of who we are not as individuals but as a species.

I would be very interested to see an argument that refutes this.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
148. that is the lie? you yourself said it is in all of us. obvious i did not mean we murder... but it
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:37 PM
Nov 2013

is in us to murder. you said that.

i disagree. i think the vast majority of us do not commit the act nor have the impulse to murder.

so again. cleared that up. people can decide as they read.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
149. I clarified my position, and you ignored the clarification.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:42 PM
Nov 2013

As a species, we have an impulse to violence. Perhaps not to initiate violence, but the impulse is there nonetheless.

Even in you.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
162. I know.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 10:16 PM
Nov 2013

If someone were to attempt to harm your child, would you sit by passively while that person inflicted harm?

Or would you seek to stop that person, engaging in violence if necessary?

You would not, in that case, be initiating violence, but it is incorrect to say that violence is not a part of who we are as a species.


My point is served.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
164. i do not think that is innate. it is practical. i am in a situation where i have to protect,
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 10:27 PM
Nov 2013

to survive. it does not make it innate.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
171. Please explain the substantive difference between the two
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:21 PM
Nov 2013

And how a person might be shown to have an "innate" capacity for violence versus a "practical" capacity for it?




 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
176. is all of the world going around murdering and being violent? no. is all of the world
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:31 PM
Nov 2013

breathing, eating, shitting, and having sex? yes.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
179. Surely you don't exclude asexual people from "all the world," do you?
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:48 PM
Nov 2013

Some quick Googling puts the number somewhere around 60 million, give or take. How many people are you willing to write off while still calling a characteristic "innate?"

Regardless, perhaps we should distinguish between fundamental, biological drives (eating/shitting) and inherent behavioral phenomena (sexual activity, violence).

And you didn't answer the question: how are we to distinguish substantively between an "innate" capacity for violence as opposed to a "practical" capacity for violence?

This may seem like a trivial digression, but in fact it's fairly central to the issue at hand, the assertion that fictional rape imagery inclines society toward rape-tolerance.

Tumbulu

(6,278 posts)
10. I do not get your point at all
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 03:57 AM
Nov 2013

all this gratuitous violence against women has an effect on men and women. And not a good effect.

Lancero

(3,003 posts)
15. Effect...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:17 AM
Nov 2013

Requires cause.

And the cause is choice - The choice, choices, that a person makes.

We like to point fingers at everything, we try to put the blame on anything but ourselves.

In the end, it always comes down to a person, and what they choose to do.

Rape has existed since before we bothered to record our history. It isn't a modern thing. It's not something that was created in response to the media that we watch, that we listen to, that we play. It has, and always will be, something that a person chooses to do.

Lancero

(3,003 posts)
21. Your missing that...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 05:00 AM
Nov 2013

The choice isn't be raped - But to rape.

No one chooses to be raped. But their are those that choose to rape.

Then again, if you had paid attention to my post, specifically the end, you would have seen that I have already said that.

Tumbulu

(6,278 posts)
55. I am not following you
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 01:10 PM
Nov 2013

sorry. I am sure you do not think that the right to rape needs to be protected or glorified.

So, I am confused.

Lancero

(3,003 posts)
56. Partially my fault...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 01:55 PM
Nov 2013

Cause and effect isn't really the best way to put it, but it is the closest thing I can use to describe it.

The issue with the choices a person makes is that many of those choices will pull in other people - People that would rather have nothing to do with that choice.

In this case, a person making the choice to rape. This choice pulls in another person - his victim. They never would have chosen to be raped, but as a result of someone else's choice, they have/could have been. (Figured I better put this as well, but the could have been describes cases where the victim manages to fight off their attacker.)

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
7. Try reversing this sentence just for fun.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 03:47 AM
Nov 2013

"Those reporting higher exposure to violent pornography are six times more likely to report having raped than those reporting low exposure."

becomes

"Those six times more likely to have raped reported higher exposure to violent pornography."


In other words, cause and effect are completely reversed.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
11. Ahh the good old directional/third variable problem.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:02 AM
Nov 2013

Violent urges could be causing them to consume violent porn. Violent porn might be causing them to have violent urges.

Or there is another third variable causing both of those things and neither of them has a casual effect on the other.

The third variable problem, bane too all poor correlation jumps to conclusions.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
14. Any society or any person who wants to ban fiction or damage freedom of speech
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:11 AM
Nov 2013

Is far more perverse and sickening to me than the most disgusting consensual sex act or pornography imaginable.

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
92. that's one thing right wingers and liberals have in common. Both groups think they know what is
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:59 PM
Nov 2013

best for other people and therefore get to tell people what to do.

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
16. With all this "ban porn" talk lately, you'd think the Tea Party had invaded DU
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:34 AM
Nov 2013

Both feminists and the far-right want to control what consenting adults do in their own bedrooms.

Scary times....scary times.

last1standing

(11,709 posts)
29. Not feminists. A few people who want to use the mantle of feminism to control others.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:03 AM
Nov 2013

There are many real feminists at DU both sides of this issue but's only a very vocal few pseudo-feminists who are trying to demand that everyone must walk in lockstep with them.

Hayabusa

(2,135 posts)
49. And then they wonder why
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:19 AM
Nov 2013

people don't want to be called feminists no matter how much they believe in gender equality.

last1standing

(11,709 posts)
94. I'm very proud to be called a feminist.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 05:06 PM
Nov 2013

Because I understand what a feminist really is. It's someone who believes in the empowerment of women, not someone who believes they need to be told what they can and can't do with their bodies.

There are many problems with the way in which many producers obtain and use the women in their productions, similar to strip clubs and prostitution, but the answer isn't banning them, it is building a society in which women aren't forced into work they despise in order to survive.

Women should never be forced into work they find morally reprehensible out of desperation, but some women, like some men, really do find sex work to be liberating and enjoyable. They should be free to make that decision.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
125. Exactly. I smell a rat.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:39 PM
Nov 2013

What I'm seeing from the "BAN PORN" crowd isn't feminism, but something that resembles a group pretending to be feminists based on what they heard about "feminism" from listening to Rush Limbaugh, and playing to the stereotype of "feminazis".

Sorry, not buying it. The right-wing "academic" sources they're using just shows that their masks slipped.

 

Prism

(5,815 posts)
22. Quoting homophobic thumpers on DU?
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 05:23 AM
Nov 2013

Maybe next we can get some rousing Focus on the Family articles as well.

Ah, anti-porn ideologues. Where the Martinet Left and Radical Right can both persecute sexuality together.

I swear to god, we're like five threads away from seeing Peter LaBarbera shit being posted around here.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
23. Don't forget Judith Reisman, the source of the "science" about porn's "dangerous brain chemicals"
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 05:36 AM
Nov 2013

produced when people look at pictures of other naked, sexy people.

Otherwise known as "Erotoxins" - YES BE VEWWWWWY VEWWWWY AFWAID OF THE DWEAD EWOTOXINS



Yeah, Judith Reisman. She is also is a major religious right nutjob, has blamed Gay people for the Holocaust, that kind of stuff.

But her shit gets floated and promoted on DU because she's the only "scientist" in the Solar System who will claim that a naked picture of Veronika Zemanova is, quote, "1000 times more addictive than heroin".

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
33. Oh that's where that crazy shit came from...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:44 AM
Nov 2013

I knew it sounded like sea had latched onto something and was regurgitating, but I wasn't aware where it came from.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
198. "not allowed to use anyone who celebrates Christmas or has set foot in a church" ...sigh!
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 04:53 AM
Nov 2013

Reisman is a wackjob, and a particularly nasty homophobic bigot. If I were a churchgoer (and hell, even *I* celebrate Christmas) I would be offended as shit at the implied equivalency, there.

But apparently only thing that matters is Reisman's heroics in TRYING TO OUTLAW PICTURES OF NEKKID WOMEN LIKE TEH DANGEROUS DRUGS THAT THEY ARRRE!!!!!

SAVE US!

 

opiate69

(10,129 posts)
204. Really???
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:17 AM
Nov 2013

Is somebody saying that in the echo chamber now?? Sweet Jeebus.. talk about jumping the shark…

RiffRandell

(5,909 posts)
38. You have got to be kidding me.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:50 AM
Nov 2013

A scientist? Put a photo and a bag of dope in front of an addict, and without being a "scientist" I can tell you what they're going for.

Unbelievable.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
74. Ooooh, she's an evil one.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 03:11 PM
Nov 2013

Blames Nazism on a core group of homosexuals who fetishized military culture and sexual cruelty. quite the raging sicko.

 

Prism

(5,815 posts)
247. If I ever manage a girl metal band
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:19 PM
Nov 2013

I'm using Erotoxin.

Veronika is fetching, but what I really need is for someone to filter Emily Ratajkowski out of the Internet. I don't know why the fundamentalists don't recruit her for reparative therapy, because she is chipping away the gay in my household.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
309. But she looks like such a nice older lady
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 11:16 AM
Nov 2013




"Reisman is also a visiting professor of law at Liberty University, despite the fact that she received her Ph.D in Communications. She is also Liberty Counsel’s favored expert on issues pertaining to sexuality, and her advice was endorsed by Rick Santorum, who also supported a ban on pornography.[4]"

Yeah right, I bet she is good friends with that nasty piece of work Babs

RiffRandell

(5,909 posts)
43. No shit.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 09:15 AM
Nov 2013

It's disgusting that this garbage is posted here. I'm not an alert hog though, and I think it reflects badly on certain posters, so by all means, leave it and let people know where you really stand.

 

opiate69

(10,129 posts)
59. And a classic hit & run, to boot...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:03 PM
Nov 2013

he must be furiously scouring the web for cites to back up his claim that don't come from disgusting, ignorant, homophobic right wing fucksticks.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
97. Yes, classic hit and run.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 05:56 PM
Nov 2013

Or it could be I was asleep like a normal human being. And then I've been at work. I know, crazy, right?

Joel thakkar

(363 posts)
31. My View
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:36 AM
Nov 2013

"Rape pornography teaches men" - Men who thinks that porn is a type of teaching and they should do the same in real life are dumb.

"He can conclude that her resistance is a sham and is part of a sex dance that leads to orgasm" - Any conclusion he can get is a dumb conclusion. He needs serious help if he concludes like that.

"The likelihood of raping a woman was correlated with the use of all types of pornography,
including soft-core pornography" - Ok..if everyone agrees on this study...why do we support to ban violent pornography? Why not ban porn all together because even soft-core pornography was co-related to raping a woman.

"It found that all types of
pornography (soft core, hard core, violent, and rape) are correlated with using verbal
coercion, drugs " - So softcore pornography also forces man in using drugs and verbal issues. Yeah, so it makes sense to ban porn together.

"alcohol (co-related) to sexually coerce women" - Yeah...ban alcohol..it is not only used by man to sexually coerce women, it is the cause of drunk-driving accidents and so on..what things.

"All types of pornography other than soft core were correlated with actual rape" - So ban all porn expect softcore but there is still correlation between softcore porn and raping a woman according to previous sentence.

THE STUDY YOU ARE QUOTING WAS DONE IN 1986. EVEN BEFORE THE INTRODUCTION OF COMPUTERS, INTERNET AND DVDs for many. THUS, MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WERE CONSUMING SEXUAL VIOLENCE THROUGH TV, FILMS ETC...

And above all, i do not accept any research done by a right wing institute : Witherspoon Institute who oppose same-sex marriage, abortion and stem-cell research.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
36. So, this clown's premise ...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:36 AM
Nov 2013

... is that one form of visual content "causes a behavior" and that no others do?

How does that work?

More flamebait nonsense.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
60. This thread is not talking about advertising.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:05 PM
Nov 2013

It is just another attempt by someone to control the free expression of others, apparently because they think their particular dislikes rate higher than other people's do.

I have yet to see any outrage over any other sort of violence in media that is FAR more prevalent and viewed by almost the entire population on a regular basis from them. I call that what it is, faux outrage, and nothing more than an insight towards their real agenda, a bitter and vindictive hatred of males in general.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
84. Sex negativism is usually a position that comodified sexuality...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:20 PM
Nov 2013

Is normative and destructive. It usually holds that pornography in its current state is misogynist. They either wish for the entire premise of porn to be re engineered, which is my position, or they reject pornography all together. The latter is usually reserved for conservatives.


Sex negativists also usually believe that sexual expression should always be egalitarian. At least that holds true for sex negative leftists.

I am a mix of sex positivism and negativism.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
90. It sounds like "sex negative feminists" have a self-inflicted PR problem.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:56 PM
Nov 2013

If your explanation is correct, "commodification negative feminists" might be a more apt term.

Otherwise, scary images of Andrea Dworkin come to mind.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
93. I think most rad fems like Dworkin's work.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 05:02 PM
Nov 2013

I certainly like what I've read of hers.

As far as PR goes, part of the counterculture movement is to eschew socially acceptable identities.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
147. I can't say I'm surprised
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:36 PM
Nov 2013

Dworkin also climbed in bed with the right wing homophobes in order to promote her cause.

Upton

(9,709 posts)
211. Yeah..you and the Meese Commission..
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:17 PM
Nov 2013
When the Final Report was issued, WAP called a triumphant press conference. In a joint statement, Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon crowed over the Commission's endorsement of their ordinance, which defines and bans pornography as a violation of women's civil rights. They never mentioned the minor hitch that the ordinance had already been declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court because it would proscribe material that is protected by the First Amendment. [9] Perhaps they had not read the full text of the Commission's recommendation of their ordinance, which contains the demurrer that, of course, "The only constitutionally permissible approach...is to reach material containing sexually violent or...degrading material when it is legally obscene." [10] It takes more than a press conference to hide the fact that WAP was hoodwinked, coopted, and used.

The Commission's proposals for dealing with porn are hair-raising. They want stepped-up enforcement of existing obscenity laws; increased cooperation between local, state, and federal law enforcement personnel and the IRS; and a computerized national database. They want forfeiture statutes, so that any proceeds from production of pornography can be confiscated. They want Congress to enact a statute that the distribution of obscene material "affects" interstate commerce. This would eliminate the necessity to prove transportation in interstate commerce in obscenity cases. According to the Commission, hiring individuals to participate in commercial sexual performances should be made an unfair labor practice. Transmission of obscene matter over cable TV and telephone lines should be proscribed. Obscenity should be made a predicate act for a group to be investigated under the frighteningly powerful Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO), and states should enact their own versions of RICO. All state legislatures should adopt the lower standard of proof of obscenity found in Miller v. California. [11] Pandering laws should be used against porn producers. Conditions within adult bookstores should be investigated and health violations prosecuted. Peep show booths should not be allowed to have doors or holes in the walls between the booths. Use of performers under the age of twenty-one should be forbidden by act of Congress, and producers, retailers, and distributors of sexually explicit material should be required to maintain records containing consent forms and proof of performers' ages. [12]

It was only by a very narrow margin that the Commission did not vote to recommend legislation that would have made vibrators and dildos obscene. Although the report admits that sexually explicit material which is text only (words) should usually be exempt from prosecution, Chairman Henry Hudson says in his individual statement that this exemption "is disturbing.

http://cultronix.eserver.org/califia/meese/


A man is known by the company he keeps...


Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
108. Sex positive and sex negative are terms that tend to be inflammatory
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:11 PM
Nov 2013

It really refers to the division of 2nd wave feminists between equity feminists and gender feminists, the former being the group that focuses on legal parity for women and the later is the group that tends to focus on pro-choice and anti-pornography. 3rd wave feminists also tend to identify as gender feminists.



99Forever

(14,524 posts)
153. Who...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 09:04 PM
Nov 2013

... the fuck said anything bout "oppressed males?" You want to oppress EVERYONE to suit YOUR militant view of the world, but your hatred for men is quite apparent and comes thru loud and clear.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
157. Nope, definitely don't hate men.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 09:23 PM
Nov 2013

Although I realise that's one of the most effective cliches against feminism. That it hates men. Save it for the men's rights meet and greets.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
166. ''men's rights meet and greets''?
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:06 PM
Nov 2013

Sounds like a wonderful place to be. Where might one find such a gathering?

You don't hate men in much the same way I hear most other haters deny their hate also. Your agenda says otherwise.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
181. That a specific ideology does not hero worship men does not mean it hates men.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:13 AM
Nov 2013

Learn to not be the center of the universe.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
187. Who said anything about ''worshipping men?'' Are you hallucinating?
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:36 AM
Nov 2013

Or do you specialize in strawman beating?

It really upsets you when a man won't let you bully him, doesn't it?

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
189. Let me explain what I mean...
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:47 AM
Nov 2013

An important aspect of a social or sexual hierarchy is that those of greater ranking possess access to those of lesser ranking.

In a male-centric society, men assume access to women at all times in various ways. Men also assume that in a male-centric society, favor is always paid to men. The greatness of men must always be recognized at one point or another.

What this means is any argument that doesn't base itself off the basic premises that men are great and that men have access to women is going to be challenged as man hating. And in order to even pass the supposed "smell test" of male chauvinists, you have to kiss the Kings feet, as you will.

In order to posit any idea that might implicate a mass of men in wrong doing, especially in wrong doing against women, you must preface it as not man-hating. In what other capacity is that a necessary prerequisite to a discussion? Most of those other examples revolve around dominant submissive relationships. Race, for instance, has similar rules.

Do not criticize the master before first paying him homage.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
203. I'm not your "bro" and I don't "fist bump" with haters.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:10 AM
Nov 2013

What a ridiculous thing to say.

Not at all surprising tho.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
206. I like ranch dressing with word salad
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:34 AM
Nov 2013

"male-centric society" does not mean men get access to women however and whenever they want, and even if it did that dynamic doesn't automatically exist in a smaller online community like DU. In fact, given that male directed sexism almost always gets a pass and the reverse is certainly not true it's not too much of a stretch to suggest that dynamic is not completely reversed or at the very least irrelevant.

If you want to further sexist stereotypes, go right ahead but please don't pretend you should automatically get a pass when someone calls bullshit. The patriarchy is not some convenient scapegoat one gets to use as an excuse for sexism. Denigrating all or most men is just as wrong as doing so for all or most women. It doesn't matter how you preface it.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
249. Just because you do not understand it does not mean it is word salad.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:39 PM
Nov 2013

If you haven't, for instance, studied political lesbianism or lesbian separatism, you aren't in a place to understand what I'm talking about.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
37. How these threads usually go:
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:47 AM
Nov 2013

"PORNOGRAPHY CAUSES RAPE! BAN IT! BAN IT! BAN IT!"

"Um, actually, it doesn't. The numbers show otherwise..."

"YOU'RE AN ENABLER OF RAPE CULTURE!"

"You realize we have a First Amendment in this country, and you're talking about imprisoning people for engaging in consensual acts..."

[font size="4"]"YOU'RE AN EVIL WOMAN HATER! I SHOULD GET YOU BANNED!"[/font]

"No, that's not what I am at all. Let me explain my position again."

[font size="5"]"YOU'RE AN EVIL WOMAN HATER!"[/font]

"What is wrong with you? All I'm saying is that people engaged in consensual acts shouldn't face prison!"

[font size="6"]"DU IS INFESTED WITH MISOGYNISTIC TROLLS!"[/font]

"I'm not talking about rape. I'm talking about consensual..."

[font size="7"]"I HOPE YOU DIE OF CANCER!"[/font]

The thread goes on for 1,000-5,000 posts, and ends when everyone else backs away slowly from the screaming crazy people.

Joel thakkar

(363 posts)
39. They have also started
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:56 AM
Nov 2013
"

You want proof that watching porn makes people rapist...Here it is

*Inserts a right wing institute website article who opposes same sex marriage, abortion, stem cell, supports globalization, clearly displays their hatred towards LGBT Families, is keen on bringing religion in politics etc...and provides a link to their studies about how porn (soft-core-hard-core-everything) turns man into raping monsters.*

"

Joel thakkar

(363 posts)
42. I was not knowing that
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 09:05 AM
Nov 2013

Creating a thread with a right wing institute website, article and studies doesn't get hide in DU Jury...it is open with 3-3 votes on both sides.


*Let me now create a bunch of threads with right wing institute studies as source on different issues.*

RiffRandell

(5,909 posts)
44. See my #43 response.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 09:24 AM
Nov 2013

I'd like to see the results just to see how people justified keeping something from a RW site. I tend to usually let things stand, but always vote to hide if it's from a RW source...duh!

Like I said, consider the source/sources.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
73. DU juries are funny that way. I hate to use the term "PC," but...
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:48 PM
Nov 2013

I think that is what we have. I saw another post successfully hidden this morning because the poster dared to say that most of the participants in "the knock-out game" were black. That appears to be true, but apparently, truth isn't enough to save a post from being hidden if it offends certain sensibilities.

Likewise, I had a post hidden in one of these rape threads because I drew a distinction between forceable rape and statutory rape. No violation of DU rules that I can figure out, no insults or name calling to anyone. Yet hidden.

In the present case, we have studies ginned up by rightist homophobes with a long pedigree of conservative bigotry, but they stand because they fit the political predilictions of the jurors.

The jury system is fucked up, but I don't know what to do about it.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
47. Indeed, studies show that pre-1900's or so, rape never existed
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:04 AM
Nov 2013

And before guns, no one killed anyone else either.

Now, some might argue that per capita rape and murder as less now than before and we as a society have evolved, but none of that can be true because guns/porn.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
51. Right wing sources who are anti gay and anti science should not be on any DUer's
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:31 AM
Nov 2013

list of cites. Disgusted at the OP but I have a question. Do you also think that if I watch Gandhi I will become a self actualized leader of a peaceful revolution? If I watch only 1940's films about the selfless sacrifices of the discovering class, will I become Madame Curie or Dr Pature?

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
76. Or as Frank Zappa once observed....
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 03:40 PM
Nov 2013

...given the number of love songs that have been written in the history of music, you'd think we'd all be having sex 24/7.

Or as he puts it:

"There are more love songs than anything else. If songs could make you do something we'd all love one another."
Frank Zappa

Yavin4

(35,438 posts)
63. So what exactly does or does not constitute "violent porn"? And who decides what it is exactly?
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:16 PM
Nov 2013

There are several mainstream movies, books, websites, blogs, etc. that could fall into this definition of violent porn.

ElboRuum

(4,717 posts)
106. One bit of wisdom that I remind myself of every day.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 06:54 PM
Nov 2013

Never entrust authority with those who sue for it.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
116. What would you say if the sex negative feminist is a man?
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:24 PM
Nov 2013

Would that change anything for you? Just asking.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
186. The OP himself used the term, upthread.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:35 AM
Nov 2013

Fact is, some folks are very upfront about their "sex-negativity", their opposition to "unnatural" acts like PIV, and the like.

Whether or not these positions are absurd, the fact is some folks seem to be adopting them, and self-labeling accordingly, in total seriousness.

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
297. Of course not
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 05:44 AM
Nov 2013

Rapists decide.

Where does a so-called "sex negative" feminist have power anywhere in this world?
Oh, you mean you might have to be exposed to the horror of a woman you disagree with speaking her mind? How awful for you.

"Sex negative feminists" is a slur, but I get your point. If we object to rape, torture, and mutilation of women, we're major buzz kills.

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
107. "50 Shades of Grey" would easily fall into that
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:11 PM
Nov 2013

I managed to get half chapter in and thought... "Holy Crap this is terrible"

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
202. All porn is violent
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 06:07 AM
Nov 2013

Or at least the vast majority of it. The OP said he was a fan of Dworkin, who described heterosexual sex as coercive and violent.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
250. Liking what I have read from an author...
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:48 PM
Nov 2013

Does not mean I agree wholeheartedly with EVERYTHING the author says.

That's part of being a mature intellectual.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
265. I think we can agree choking someone and calling them a whore...
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 12:21 AM
Nov 2013

Is both physically and verbally violent.

The fine line is what brings about uncertainty. But if we even have to raise the question, odds are fairly high whoever is producing the content should deeply reconsider the message they are attempting to convey.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
276. Should does not mean will
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 01:41 AM
Nov 2013

There's also a lot of homophobic shitbags out there who should rethink their warped ideology as well, yet you seem to have no issues providing their sites with traffic. There are always going to be those out there who are producing content that is abhorent. That doesn't mean society needs to be reordered to deal with it. Free speech doesn't mean you have to like what everyone has to say. My basic rule is as long as consenting adults are doing it, it's not my position to tell them they can't regardless of whether there's a camera involved and someone else is watching it. There's already too many folks out there trying to force their version of morality on everyone else, including those you are channeling. That road leads to some very dark places. And those who claim they aren't for banning don't seem to have a very good answer for exactly what they are for other than wagging their fingers which doesn't seem to have accomplished much in the past 40 years or so.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
284. A losing battle is still a battle worth fighting.
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 02:15 AM
Nov 2013

I do not endorse banning pornography despite my agreement with much of the theorizing constructed by people like Andrea Dworkin.

I believe that making visible the violence, sexism and racism inherent in mainstream pornography, and critically analyzing it, is the best method of reducing its prevalence.

Hiding it, banning it, is actually an excellent way of making certain types of demented sexuality absolutely prolific. This is the fundamental idea people like Michel Foucault explain as a source of the multiplication of sexuality and sexual dialogue. It becomes taboo and thus becomes eroticized.

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
71. Interesting sources you have there.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:42 PM
Nov 2013

Since when are right wing sources allowed here?

Next, you're going to tell me that since I play GTA, I'm going to shoot up shopping malls and schools.

Here's what I learned in the last couple of days: since I watch porn, I'm a potential rapist. Hyperbole much, people?

Good god.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
72. That first source is run by the Witherspoon Institute
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 02:48 PM
Nov 2013
Organized by:

The Research Program on Family, Marriage, and Democracy of the Witherspoon Institute

http://www.socialcostsofpornography.com/about.php

The Witherspoon Institute is a conservative think tank in Princeton, New Jersey. The group is opposed to same-sex marriage, embryonic stem cell research, and abortion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witherspoon_Institute

Nice to see the anti-porn crowd allied with Rick Santorum types.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
110. That group is also known to fund junk science studies to support their small minded views
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:13 PM
Nov 2013

So there's that.

 

alphafemale

(18,497 posts)
86. Not this shit...Again.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 04:24 PM
Nov 2013

Some people LIKE having sex.

Some people don't mind getting PAID for doing something they LIKE!

Some people LIKE to watch the people who LIKE having sex.

That is all.

If anyone is harmed or taped for porn against their will that is a crime. And another matter entirely.



Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
104. It's not simple, but I'm not sure how you think parroting out the works of homophobes helps
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 06:50 PM
Nov 2013
The effects of pornography, whether violent or non-violent, on sexual aggression have been debated for decades. The current review examines evidence about the influence of pornography on sexual aggression in correlational and experimental studies and in real world violent crime data. Evidence for a causal relationship between exposure to pornography and sexual aggression is slim and may, at certain times, have been exaggerated by politicians, pressure groups and some social scientists. Some of the debate has focused on violent pornography, but evidence of any negative effects is inconsistent, and violent pornography is comparatively rare in the real world. Victimization rates for rape in the United States demonstrate an inverse relationship between pornography consumption and rape rates. Data from other nations have suggested similar relationships. Although these data cannot be used to determine that pornography has a cathartic effect on rape behavior, combined with the weak evidence in support of negative causal hypotheses from the scientific literature, it is concluded that it is time to discard the hypothesis that pornography contributes to increased sexual assault behavior.
(emphasis mine)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1359178909000445

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
115. "...violent pornography is comparatively rare in the real world." Totally, utterly false.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:21 PM
Nov 2013

Violence totally pervades free online pornography.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
120. Your opinion perhaps
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:33 PM
Nov 2013

But you have provided no evidence to support said opinion and the metaanalysis was a quantitative investigation based on exhaustive research.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
122. I can tell you where to go to access the largest porn websites.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:36 PM
Nov 2013

All you have to do is peruse the videos with the most views and highest ratings. It's epidemic.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
131. The authors said violent content is rare. I'm saying just the opposite.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:45 PM
Nov 2013

That it is nearly everywhere. That the vast majority of online pornography, even videos that at face value seem benign, possess violent rhetoric and imagery. That doesn't simply mean rape porn, by the way.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
135. Good for you
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:53 PM
Nov 2013

But even if we assume your poorly supported opinion is true, that simply makes the analysis even more valid because there's still no causation evidence and the correlative evidence goes the other direction.

It also seems to be a very poor assumption to begin with seeing as how we have the poorly supported opinion of an anonymous internet poster (who parrots out "data" funded by the worst sort of rightwing bullshit mongers) vs the opinion of two widely referenced experts in their respective fields supported by exhaustive research.

Which one do you think is more relevant?

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
200. The study you link defines blowjobs as "aggression"
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 04:56 AM
Nov 2013

Do you consider female on male oral sex to be inherently "violent"?

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
252. I think oral sex has a high likelihood of being inequitable.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:50 PM
Nov 2013

But not that such inequitabiliy is inherent or innate. It is a product of normative sexuality.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
273. That's not an answer to the question.
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 01:07 AM
Nov 2013

The definition of "gagging" in the study you posted, was this:

(g) gagging (defined as when an object or body part, e.g., penis, hand, or sex toy, is inserted into a character’s mouth, visibly obstruct- ing breathing);


This is an odd definition. Because the "gag reflex" as is commonly associated with fellatio, is not particularly about breathing or not being able to breathe. Humans can breathe through their noses. So either these people found smut with odd shaped penii that were somehow able to go inside mouths AND obstruct nasal breathing, or they're defining the insertion of anything into a mouth which could be construed as obstructing the breathing through the mouth, as "obstructing breathing".

See what I'm saying? And there's really not very many things which CAN be put in a human mouth, save maybe snorkels, which aren't going to obstruct mouth breathing.

...in short, it really looks to me like they have defined the putting of a penis in a mouth (or a sex toy, or a hand ) itself, as an "aggressive act". Which is convenient if you're trying to make some statistical point about "aggression in porn", because certainly there's a lot of fellatio in porn.

So let me ask again; would you include blowjobs in a list of "aggressive, violent acts" if you were trying to categorize porn for a study like this?

EOTE

(13,409 posts)
315. Seeing as you're talking to a "sex negative feminist", I'm fairly sure that the answer is yes.
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 12:48 PM
Nov 2013

Along with any other form of male on female sex that Andrea Dworkin defines as rape (which is all of it).

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
310. You make it equitable by always servicing the woman first...
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 11:25 AM
Nov 2013

LOL,

This really isn't that hard

How old are you by the way?

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
129. sure I can.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:41 PM
Nov 2013

I deny the very existence of socialization.

There, I just did it.

Words sure are fun to play with, aren't they?

To quote T.S. Geisel, fun is fun, but you have to know how.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
114. For a feminist man, you are concerned with different things than I am concerned about.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:17 PM
Nov 2013

First you railed against FEMEN, and that their tactics (naked boobies) were too disrespectful or whatever.
You also think the full face veil is a good thing, and that anyone who criticizes the hijab is disrespecting their culture.
And now this... all from a dude.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
117. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:24 PM
Nov 2013

I've never supported full face veils. I also regularly criticize the diminutive aspect of traditional dress like the hijab. I don't remember ever specifically arguing otherwise on here.

I have however been critical of FEMEN. You got that one right.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
121. I am against hijabs, and I am in favor of laws banning them.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:34 PM
Nov 2013

I do not think that women would willingly wear them if they were not oppressed, and I think that there is a need for a ban in western societies, because those women do not get to decide for themselves. That may have been the difference. I do recall you saying that women can and should decide for themselves whether they wear the hijab or not? Well actually that is wishful thinking on your part, in some cultures.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
130. Similar to my ideas on pornography, I am not concerned with banning either.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:43 PM
Nov 2013

Precisely because the last thing we need is more authoritative bodies making legal decisions for women.

However, and this is important, I think it is terribly important not to further a social structure conducive to oppressive rhetoric and violent imagery against women.

Is there a possible world where dress like the hijab can be liberatory? I believe so, yes. And so do other scholars. However, that there is a possible world where such dress could be liberatory does not mean that the general trend is toward liberation. It absolutely isn't. In countries where burkas and hijabs are most used, the dresses are required by law. That's a very serious problem.

It's important, still, to consider the reality that it is not only legal sanctions that we need to address. Just as the social and legal expectation of women to cover up is oppressive, so too is the social expectation that women reveal their bodies. The core issue with both of these trends is the objectification of the female body and the erasure of female autonomy.

Women should be educated on the historical and social significance of certain types of dress. However, most importantly, women must be free to do whatever they want with their bodies.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
142. Then you seem to have contradicted yourself
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:16 PM
Nov 2013
They either wish for the entire premise of porn to be re engineered, which is my position,...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4081986

So how does one reengineer porn without banning exactly?
 

opiate69

(10,129 posts)
195. Of course he can..
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 01:44 AM
Nov 2013

He hasn't nearly exhausted the plethora of fundi-licious, right-wing, homophobic sites to cite.

 

opiate69

(10,129 posts)
205. No shit..
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:19 AM
Nov 2013

and, while we're at it, fuck it.. let's have Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Oral Roberts weigh in too

 

opiate69

(10,129 posts)
289. Color me shocked!
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 02:38 AM
Nov 2013

Gee.. I wonder why the only data they can come up with to confirm their authoritarian banality is right-wing fundy buffoons? Couldn't possibly be that they're just flat fucking wrong, maybe?

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
150. You can go ahead an be an outspoken male feminist.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:52 PM
Nov 2013

Even a "radical feminist" as you have called yourself, although I do think it is questionable to be calling yourself a "radical feminist" on an internet message board without adding the disclaimer that you are a male.

You can call yourself a feminist, but you do not speak for me, buddy boy.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
156. I hate porn.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 09:14 PM
Nov 2013

I frankly wish that it didn't even exist. However, I also hate people trying to tell consenting adults what they can or can't do or how they are supposed to think.

Don't like porn? Don't watch it. Works for me.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
158. Anti-pornographers love to paint their ideological opponents as porn freaks
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 09:24 PM
Nov 2013

It's what feeds their righteous indignation. I could give a shit less if all porn disappeared tomorrow and never returned, but I see the anti-pornographers as a far bigger threat than anything porn could accomplish.

"To suppress free speech in the name of protecting women is dangerous and wrong."
-- Betty Friedan

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
161. I've noticed that too.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 09:53 PM
Nov 2013

They seem to think that anyone with a different point of view must secretly max out their credit cards buying internet porn.

Zealots scare me far more than pornography.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
169. Well I downloaded the articles with the intention of reading them tonight and commenting
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:17 PM
Nov 2013

but now I don't think that will be necessary.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
182. That rape is decreasing doesn't mean a variable causally linked to it must also be decreasing.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:22 AM
Nov 2013

Seriously, consider more complicated realities.

Orrex

(63,208 posts)
208. But that's exactly what you're doing in reply #182 and elsewhere
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:37 AM
Nov 2013

You are assuming that rape-themed porn has a causative relation to actual violence, though I suspect that you will assert that this is not the case.

It's especially curious because several people have produced statistics showing a decrease in incidence of rape despite a vast increase in porn availability. Yet you dismiss these statistics apparently for no reason other than that they contradict your assumption.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
188. I already addressed that in another post
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:44 AM
Nov 2013

Which you couldn't seem to counter with much more than your poorly supported opinion on a tangential point.

When porn content both in quantity and severity has gone through the roof and rape is down by 50% over the same time period, it does present a problem for those who have been promising us that 'porn causes rape' at least since the 70's, don't you think? Especially when the "causally linked" evidence is even more problematic for the Dworkin fans.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-sunny-side-of-smut

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
201. You are absolutely right. Correlation is not causation.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 05:19 AM
Nov 2013

i strongly suspect that rape is declining with other violent crime due to a combination of economic and demographic trends to which such things are normally correlated.

However, none of this would even be on the radar if we hadn't had 3 decades, now, of 2nd wave figures like Dworkin and Mackinnon assuring us that increased availability of porn WOULD result in more rape. Not "might", not "could", but WOULD.

So here we are, several decades between debbie does dallas and internet streaming tube porn. And, we have statistical data we can look at.

Correlation is not causation. But a glaring inverse correlation of the sort we see? It blows a giant logical hole in the old Dworkin-MacKinnon assertion.

They were wrong. They're still wrong.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
241. The counter to that is that there are other factors at work
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 07:36 PM
Nov 2013

And this is certainly technically correct, however the correlative evidence isn't even close. Porn is up both in graphic content and quantity significantly, and not by just a little. Rape is down, and not by just a little.

So in order for their hypothesis to be correct, those other factors at work must have made enough of an impact to completely overshadow any impact that porn created. So even if we assume there is a causal relationship between porn and rape, that relationship can't be very significant (remember porn way up, rape way down).

And where's the causal evidence? It turns out there never was much (at least if you throw out all the junk science and false conclusions).

The effects of pornography, whether violent or non-violent, on sexual aggression have been debated for decades. The current review examines evidence about the influence of pornography on sexual aggression in correlational and experimental studies and in real world violent crime data. Evidence for a causal relationship between exposure to pornography and sexual aggression is slim and may, at certain times, have been exaggerated by politicians, pressure groups and some social scientists. Some of the debate has focused on violent pornography, but evidence of any negative effects is inconsistent, and violent pornography is comparatively rare in the real world. Victimization rates for rape in the United States demonstrate an inverse relationship between pornography consumption and rape rates. Data from other nations have suggested similar relationships. Although these data cannot be used to determine that pornography has a cathartic effect on rape behavior, combined with the weak evidence in support of negative causal hypotheses from the scientific literature, it is concluded that it is time to discard the hypothesis that pornography contributes to increased sexual assault behavior.
(emphasis mine)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1359178909000445

Not only that, it turns out that the causal evidence may actually go completely the opposite direction, which most certainly is supported by the correlational evidence. Even as far as "rape culture" goes, guess what actually was found to have a measurable effect on sexist attitudes? Wingnuttery in rural areas. Surprise!

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-sunny-side-of-smut


Dash87

(3,220 posts)
175. I have no problem w/ porn itself.
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 11:25 PM
Nov 2013

I think it does hurt men's image of women, but on the other hand porn is also permissible by this country's 1st amendment, like it or not.

On the other hand, there is no place for porn where a woman is hurt, humiliated, etc. None! I'm not sure why this type of movie would have an audience, and frankly I find the concept itself both horrifying and weird. It's not like I'm a prude - I just think watching someone else in pain or in fear is not a normal thing to find sexually attractive.

Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #185)

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
281. My argument has nothing to do with denying legal access to pornography.
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 02:07 AM
Nov 2013

I myself watch pornography. My argument has never been to make pornography illegal.

My argument is however to point out that pornography is deeply seated in violent, sexist and racist normative values.

Rape can absolutely be about gaining sexual access to unwilling women. The argument that they could just go find someone else who is willing is irrelevant. They want to have sex with the woman they are raping. The underlying reasons for that are more complex. But you can't just say well it has nothing to do with sex because they could just go find, for instance, a prostitute.

In_The_Wind

(72,300 posts)
236. I agree with everything you've said here.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 07:00 PM
Nov 2013

I wouldn't enjoy seeing a woman or a man degraded, hurt or harmed in any manner.

westerebus

(2,976 posts)
214. Let's go back to the 1969 Supreme Court and what followed.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 01:30 PM
Nov 2013

For those who missed it, the Court said (short version) adults having access to porn is not a crime. Well, some people didn't like that decision. The current POTUS was LBJ, who appointed a commission to study and recommend to the Congress what effect this is going to have.

The 1970 Commission on Obscenity and Pornography came back with their study that said (short version) porn was not a problem in Denmark, by implication it may not be a problem here either.

That was rejected by the Congress and we all know the Congress is always right.

The Meese Commission appointed in 1986 by St Ray-gun (blessed be his name) came to the exact opposite conclusion. To whit: porn is evil. Porn causes rape. Porn destroys the moral character of anyone and everyone who comes in contact with it.

The head of that Commission was none other than "hang'em high Henry" Hudson a big R republican, who later as a Bush appointed judge declared the ACA unconstitutional.

Another exemplary figure on that Commission was the Reverend Focus on the Family James Dobson.

So there you have it. (the short version)

If you detect a hint of sarcasm, then my job here is done.

penultimate

(1,110 posts)
227. I do not understand rape porn, and I wouldn't care if rape porn was taken away
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 02:48 PM
Nov 2013

That is just weird shit, and I'd avoid someone who had such a weird fetish. Although, there could be a debate about if consenting people are involved (fake rape porn) on all sides, then what right do I have to say people can't do it? After all, there are lots of fake activities shown on TV and in movies that are illegal and bad. Should those be banned too? (not sure if anyone is saying it should be banned, but I know it was recently banned somewhere..I think the UK) I've seen many people killed in movies, but I have no desire to kill anyone. I've seen rape scenes in movies too, but I have no desire to rape anyone either. But that being said, I rape porn is weird to me and I won't fight in its defense. Which probably makes me an asshole, but ehnn.

As for regular non-rape porn causing rape. I don't really get that either. I've seen plenty of porn and non of it ever made me want to rape anyone in any sort of way. Most the porn I've seen these days is made by a couple of people at home who want put on a show. I'd say in a lot of them it looked like the female was even the one who was enjoying the camera the most (even in control) I don't get how that is harmful to anyone or how it could trigger someone to rape.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
245. The more pornography women use, the more likely they are to be victims of non-consensual sex
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 09:36 PM
Nov 2013

-- Mary Anne Layden, PhD

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
262. Your guess is as good as mine
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 11:24 PM
Nov 2013

An interesting take on the "porn causes rape" meme, though. Same author as the OP.

RandySF

(58,799 posts)
253. No
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:53 PM
Nov 2013

Porn depicting consentual acts does no more to encourage rape than consensual sex encourages rape. I'm sick and tired of being told how I should live even in the most private aspects of my life. That's what Republicans want to do and we should not try to copy them.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
255. Telling you the consequences of your actions...
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:56 PM
Nov 2013

Is not the same as forcing you to do or not do something. It isn't even telling you how to live. It's a confrontation with reality.

RandySF

(58,799 posts)
256. I've watched plenty of porn.
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 10:57 PM
Nov 2013

And I have never raised my hand against anyone. So go find someone else to buy it.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
258. Cool glad to know you are the final say...
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 11:00 PM
Nov 2013

In all social science issues.

Let's just get your opinion on all matters so we can stop wasting our time trying to figure out appropriate answers.

flvegan

(64,407 posts)
259. Is this what we're banning porn for this week? It makes violence sexy?
Sun Nov 24, 2013, 11:10 PM
Nov 2013

Seriously? The idiots that think this, broad brush, wouldn't know violence if it (forgive me) kicked them in the ass twice.

While I think that there is a segment of porn out there that is particularly demeaning to women, that I find disgusting and makes me just a bit angry, to suggest that porn, in general, makes violence sexy is devoid of common sense. There is nothing sexy about rape, or anything else that creates a sexual victim situation. NOTHING.

Be really careful what you call violent, lest you have that mirror turned around on you for what you deem "okay" personally.

Response to Gravitycollapse (Original post)

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
267. How tiny is this proportion, would you say?
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 12:39 AM
Nov 2013

Rape is very often a form of sexual gratification. And sexual gratification is very often a display of power.

Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #267)

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
278. 1 in 4-6 girls/women are raped. "Rapist are far and few between."
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 01:59 AM
Nov 2013

so, no rape culture exists because you do not want to hurt mens feelings?

brilliant.

takes care of that. i guess we are done here.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
279. Rape very clearly is about sex. Otherwise, it would not involve sex.
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 02:01 AM
Nov 2013

Sex and sexual gratification itself are elements of rape. Not the only elements but far from non-existent.

Rape is a play between sex and power. How those two elements interact is different with each case. For instance, date rape where the man drugs the woman is very much about sexual gratification.

It is a mistake to completely disassociate sex and sexual gratification from rape. It is an attempt to desexualize the act of rape precisely because we do not want to consider the reality that sexuality can be so perverted. But it absolutely can.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
301. Rape is more specifically about violence
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 06:33 AM
Nov 2013

Which most criminologists, feminists, and mental health professionals agree.

So the idea that rape shouldn't be considered along with other types of violence is not a good one. Is watching simulated murder causing people to go out and perform actual murder? This is no less valid of a question than if one substitutes "rape" for "murder" or any other violent crime.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
305. ""The more pornography women use, the more likely they are to be victims of non-consensual sex,"
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 09:29 AM
Nov 2013

That is also what was said by Mary Anne Layden, the source of the "study' quoted by the OP.

Does that sound like victim blaming to anyone besides me?

maddezmom

(135,060 posts)
314. Sure sounds like it to me
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 11:48 AM
Nov 2013

Just another RW fundie study to "teach" us all about the evils of sex. I still can't believe people on cite this types of sources.

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