Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Why Syzygy

(18,928 posts)
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 07:47 PM Nov 2013

How We Teach Our Kids That Women are Liars.

http://www.rolereboot.org/culture-and-politics/details/2013-11-how-we-teach-our-kids-that-women-are-liars#.Uo-OAbsoqdI.twitter

No one says, “You can’t trust women,” but distrust them we do. College students surveyed revealed that they think up to 50% of their female peers lie when they accuse someone of rape, despite wide-scale evidence and multi-country studies that show the incidence of false rape reports to be in the 2%-8% range, pretty much the same as false claims for other crimes. As late as 2003, people jokingly (wink, wink) referred to Philadelphia’s sex crimes unit as “the lying bitch unit.” If an 11-year-old girl told an adult that her father took out a Craigslist ad to find someone to beat and rape her while he watched, as recently actually occurred, what do you think the response would be? Would she need to provide a videotape after the fact?

It goes way beyond sexual assault as well. That’s just the most likely and obvious demonstration of “women are born to lie” myths. Women’s credibility is questioned in the workplace, in courts, by law enforcement, in doctors' offices, and in our political system. People don’t trust women to be bosses, or pilots, or employees. Pakistan’s controversial Hudood Ordinance still requires a female rape victim to procure four male witnesses to her rape or risk prosecution for adultery. In August, a survey of managers in the United States revealed that they overwhelmingly distrust women who request flextime.

It’s notable, of course, that women are trusted to be mothers—the largest pool of undervalued, economically crucial labor.



"Amongst all the savage beasts none is found so harmful as woman." -- John Chrysostom

“What she cannot get, she seeks to obtain through lying and diabolical deceptions. One must be on one's guard with every woman, as if she were a poisonous snake and the horned devil." -- St. Albertus Magnus

“Women were made either to be wives or prostitutes.” -- Martin Luther

“I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children.” -- Augustine

While most religious leaders aren’t going around spouting overtly denigrating opinions about women, many, through default and tradition, casually and uncritically expose children to religious texts that are fundamentally misogynistic. I have to believe that most Sunday school lessons are not concerned with deconstructing, say, the creation story, a seminal text in our culture whether you are religious or not. Religious misogyny is tied to institutional power that ends up in children and women being impoverished and dying.
51 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
How We Teach Our Kids That Women are Liars. (Original Post) Why Syzygy Nov 2013 OP
Here among MidWest fundies the female submission ideal still reigns. I can't remember which IrishAyes Nov 2013 #1
wow. I experience it at work as well. One of the execs has a habit of doing this: PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #2
I thought Why Syzygy Nov 2013 #8
This is a powerful article. Thank you for posting it. PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #3
It put a hole in my gut. n/t Why Syzygy Nov 2013 #9
Thanks for post! burrowowl Nov 2013 #4
martin luther, et tu? i knew. and then men ask.... why, are women so angry. why men, would we be seabeyond Nov 2013 #5
K & R Quantess Nov 2013 #6
I wonder if it is getting better or worse el_bryanto Nov 2013 #7
We've gone backwards. Why Syzygy Nov 2013 #10
How have we gone backwords - or from what period have we gone backwords? el_bryanto Nov 2013 #12
men in public, running for election, on the house floor, on political radio, media, the net, speak seabeyond Nov 2013 #17
I have to admit I steered clear of that Porn thread el_bryanto Nov 2013 #18
the point. lack of respect toward women like never before. that is what we are living. backlash. seabeyond Nov 2013 #19
Maybe I'm too intellectual about this issue; but I guess I ask again el_bryanto Nov 2013 #20
it is pretty damn pervasive when everywhere a woman looks we are being fed this garbage. seabeyond Nov 2013 #21
That is true el_bryanto Nov 2013 #22
Same is happening here with calling rape victims xmas74 Nov 2013 #25
i know xmas. it is in my view, but, i cannot hit that one too. attack of women everywhere seabeyond Nov 2013 #26
The multiple rape threads on here that have received so much negative feedback. xmas74 Nov 2013 #27
you had better start educating and edcating hard. help her find her voice. us women are taught to seabeyond Nov 2013 #28
It's already started, xmas74 Nov 2013 #29
absolutely. they say these things cause they know the girl will be quiet. how embarrassing for her seabeyond Nov 2013 #31
She's tall for her age and she started developing earlier than her classmates. xmas74 Nov 2013 #32
Two good articles.. Why Syzygy Nov 2013 #35
bookmarking to read in the morning. do nOT let me forget. excellent. and thank you. nt seabeyond Nov 2013 #39
it is a backlash against women becoming financially independent. nt seabeyond Nov 2013 #16
Teaching young girls to feel competent and BE competent Why Syzygy Nov 2013 #11
I LOVE this! Le Taz Hot Nov 2013 #24
I Why Syzygy Nov 2013 #36
yes SOME men. do come in here and explain to us how we have no problems today and angry? ye old hags seabeyond Nov 2013 #13
I blame your hysterical uteruses. Orrex Nov 2013 #14
I blame your hysterical uteruses. seabeyond Nov 2013 #15
Aw, shucks! Orrex Nov 2013 #33
This message was self-deleted by its author Why Syzygy Nov 2013 #34
In my line of work men and women are 100% equal. So so rare. riderinthestorm Nov 2013 #23
. lame54 Nov 2013 #30
Women's credibility is questioned just as much as a man's davidn3600 Nov 2013 #37
Reporting false rape Why Syzygy Nov 2013 #38
The man gets the benefit of the doubt because he's innocent until proven guilty davidn3600 Nov 2013 #40
Yes, of course... Why Syzygy Nov 2013 #41
How often are male defendants asked about irrelevant past sexual experiences in court...? LanternWaste Dec 2013 #42
Exactly. Why Syzygy Dec 2013 #44
Really? gollygee Dec 2013 #45
There is usually evidence in those other cases davidn3600 Dec 2013 #46
are you actually inferring a woman's prior sex life is "evidence" of some sort, David? bettyellen Dec 2013 #47
I didnt say that... davidn3600 Dec 2013 #48
I want the jury to NOT have any opportunity to know or judge her prior sex life. I would like bettyellen Dec 2013 #49
Police & prosecutors would never dare suggest CrispyQ Feb 2014 #51
K&R ismnotwasm Dec 2013 #43
This: CrispyQ Feb 2014 #50

IrishAyes

(6,151 posts)
1. Here among MidWest fundies the female submission ideal still reigns. I can't remember which
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 09:23 PM
Nov 2013

denomination, but one a few years ago stopped letting female Sunday School teachers have young male students, since women supposedly are not to teach men. One reason I loved Mother Theresa was because she told the Pope to his face that women should be allowed to be priests, and what's more we'd be better at it than men. I've lived to see many other 'impossibilities'. Maybe I'll get to see that too before I check out.

PeaceNikki

(27,985 posts)
2. wow. I experience it at work as well. One of the execs has a habit of doing this:
Sat Nov 23, 2013, 09:32 PM
Nov 2013

A group of Subject Matter Experts is in a meeting with him discussing a project of task. Whenever a women SME provides input, he will ALWAYS turn to a man (who may very well know NOTHING about the topic) and "verify" what the woman said. "John, is what Mary said accurate?" He never does this with the men. Ever.

It's INFURIATING and even more so that so many people do not even recognize that he does this. Or dismiss me as being 'sensitive' for pointing it out.

Why Syzygy

(18,928 posts)
8. I thought
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 12:28 AM
Nov 2013

I was sensitive! It harms one's self respect.

This article put a hole in my gut. I had no idea it was really this bad.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
5. martin luther, et tu? i knew. and then men ask.... why, are women so angry. why men, would we be
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 01:32 AM
Nov 2013

very angry.

reading your post i was thinking ya, but we can be mothers.

It’s notable, of course, that women are trusted to be mothers


and sure enough. there it was.

my husband gets in the car and all of a sudden i need his direction and guide. i think, you know, you trust me with the kids in the car, with no concern, for years.... yet, the moment he gets in the car, it is like i am a clueless dimwit.

hmmm, who has totaled two cars and me none.... finding wood to knock on. got it.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
7. I wonder if it is getting better or worse
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 05:53 PM
Nov 2013

I have seen this off and on - particularly the false rape charge which is a big story in town here right now (one of our football players has either done something he shouldn't have or hasn't done something but is being accused of it). On the other hand I've worked for women as often as I have worked for men at this point. One would like to believe that things are better than they were 20 years ago.

And that in another 20 years things will be better still.

Bryant

Why Syzygy

(18,928 posts)
10. We've gone backwards.
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 12:31 AM
Nov 2013

A few years ago, I read right on this very board, about a teenage girl who was trying to get pregnant to keep her boyfriend's attention. I was floored. I thought we didn't do that any more???

I'm seeing more of the 'right idea' lately. We have to reach young girls, not wait until they are teens.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
12. How have we gone backwords - or from what period have we gone backwords?
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 09:33 AM
Nov 2013

This sort of thing is tricky to capture actually - sometimes watching a 30s movie (particularly pre-code) you are struck by how modern it seems dealing with women, in a way that watching a 50s movie really feels of another era.

My guess is that improvement comes in cycles, but hopefully a generally upward trajectory. Are things better for women than they were 50 years ago? Probably but are things beter for women than they were 10 years ago? Maybe not.

Bryant

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
17. men in public, running for election, on the house floor, on political radio, media, the net, speak
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 10:21 AM
Nov 2013

women like we have never seen before. instead of it being the unusual and the person called out by a mob (my day if a boy ever stepped out of line, all the boys spoke up), it is becoming the norm how we talk to women. look at du last couple days

slut shame; prude shame. same thing

men on these threads have gotten away with calling women ugly and any number of things, defending their porn.

where was community standard? where was the outcry for the shaming sexuality to insult the woman?

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
18. I have to admit I steered clear of that Porn thread
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 10:29 AM
Nov 2013

So maybe I missed something. I am reacting more to the original article which is all over the map but makes some good points.

Bryant

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
19. the point. lack of respect toward women like never before. that is what we are living. backlash.
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 10:31 AM
Nov 2013

the way we talk to each other matters.

that is at the very basic of how we see people, groups, minorities.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
20. Maybe I'm too intellectual about this issue; but I guess I ask again
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 10:37 AM
Nov 2013

Are things worse now than they were 10 years ago? or 50 years go? The article traces it back to the statements of church fathers like St. Augustine right up to folks like Rick Santorum nowadays - which is a fair line. There are plenty of folks still around that believe in woman as having a special place in society - i.e. to be submissive mothers while the men run everything.

But the article seems to argue that this is more pervasive than that - and you seem to indicate it as well; that believing women to be liars isn't just a problem on the right but also a big problem right here at DU. I wonder if it's a pervasive problem or a problem with a few entitled folks who haven't really thought issues through.

Bryant



 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
21. it is pretty damn pervasive when everywhere a woman looks we are being fed this garbage.
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 10:42 AM
Nov 2013

the problem with men in this issue, they are not even hearing many of the insults and dissing and negative comments cause it does not effect them. be in a group. a man says something. watch for the women that pop their head up, and the men not even phased. most women will keep there mouth shut. IF a woman dares to say.... wha? she is one of those women.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
22. That is true
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 10:46 AM
Nov 2013

Everybody has a right to express their opinion without being jumped down their throats. That's one of the best things about being a white male - if i express an opinion, usually it's just taken as an el_bryanto opinion - it might be a dumb opinion or a smart opinion (mostly smart in my opinion) - but except in some cases it's not taken as "Well that's the white male opinion."

If you are a woman or a racial or ethnic minority, well than everything you say comes with the additional baggage of being a Woman or being Black or Hispanic or Asian, which the listener is able to unpack and interpret what you say anyway they like. Pretty lousy.

Bryant

xmas74

(29,658 posts)
25. Same is happening here with calling rape victims
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 11:48 AM
Nov 2013

liars, stating that the claim only hurt him and did nothing to her.

Sometimes I wonder why I ever came back to DU.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
26. i know xmas. it is in my view, but, i cannot hit that one too. attack of women everywhere
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 11:55 AM
Nov 2013

and people actually sitting here saying what? what? i dont see it.

yes xmas. in that thread too.

and the totally amazing? watching this crap? stuebenville, a perfecting parallel example, running right next to each other and the inability to see what we create as a society. ignorance is amazing. also kinda blissful.

xmas74

(29,658 posts)
27. The multiple rape threads on here that have received so much negative feedback.
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 12:04 PM
Nov 2013

The Stubenville, Maryville was sometimes hot, even the ones I have about the pilot raping a local teacher-all have been called out as possible liars or "not remembering the event properly".

It makes me afraid of the future in store for my 13 year old daughter. If we can't be supportive of victims here on a progressive site then how can we possibly expect the rest of the country to be supportive?

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
28. you had better start educating and edcating hard. help her find her voice. us women are taught to
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 12:13 PM
Nov 2013

be nice. that is a huge tool men/boys use on the girls. girls need to be able to use their voice and tell the guy boldly to fuck off. instead of trying to be nice.

i hear ya dude. i do hear ya.

xmas74

(29,658 posts)
29. It's already started,
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 12:19 PM
Nov 2013

with boys making comments about wanting to "get in her pants". I've told her that she deserves someone who will respect her and not make demands like that. (She's not even dating yet and the comments are already there.)

We've discussed that I don't care about race, gender, ethnicity, religious background or anything else-all I want for her is someone who will show her a bit of respect. And if they don't respect her? Slug 'em and humiliate them, just like they're trying to manipulate and humiliate her.

(JFTR-I mean it about slugging them. If someone makes unwanted physical advances I expect her to beat the crap out of them then call the police. I'll leave it to the young man to explain exactly why he had his ass handed to him by a girl.)

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
31. absolutely. they say these things cause they know the girl will be quiet. how embarrassing for her
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 12:30 PM
Nov 2013

at this age to have to defend her sexuality, that is just beginning. she is vulnerable and the boys know it and use it. beginning to shame her from the start. she needs empowerment to speak out

and all the fuckers on du that say theere is not an issue. fuck you. cause i am close to tears, in sadness/anger/perpetual outrage thinking, speaking, explaining the SHAME a fuckin GIRL is put thru for a boys entertainment when she is just fuckin starting to walk into her sexuality.

you wonder why we are angry. this is a child.

xmas74

(29,658 posts)
32. She's tall for her age and she started developing earlier than her classmates.
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 02:13 PM
Nov 2013

I try to keep her involved in activities so she has a group of girls to hang around with, people with a commonality. I don't like her being alone. I also heavily encourage her "geek side" because it's something she enjoys. I know that sometimes boys will target this and shame a girl over liking "geeky" things or "guy" things. I try to make her feel proud of it, instead of falling for peer pressure and going along with what's popular at the time.

Overall, I want her to be proud of who she is and to not settle for what others want her to be. She's so much more than that.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
24. I LOVE this!
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 11:41 AM
Nov 2013

I wish I had money and a little girl to give to -- I would SO order one of these. Thanks for sharing this.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
13. yes SOME men. do come in here and explain to us how we have no problems today and angry? ye old hags
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 09:42 AM
Nov 2013

do tell where women are not getting ti from every direction of society. tell us women how we should just lay back and enjoy it.

but.... us liars can raise of the kids.

Orrex

(63,083 posts)
14. I blame your hysterical uteruses.
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 10:06 AM
Nov 2013

Uteri. Um.


Oh, fuck it. They're lying and hysterical, whatever they are.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
15. I blame your hysterical uteruses.
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 10:11 AM
Nov 2013

oh, that is so fuckin funny. if i could remember, i would so steal this.

it has been a rough couple days for women on du.

orrex.....

Response to seabeyond (Reply #13)

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
23. In my line of work men and women are 100% equal. So so rare.
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 11:32 AM
Nov 2013

In fact its completely accepted which translates into other subtle positives. Reading articles like this keep me on my toes.

Thanks for posting. Big K&R

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
37. Women's credibility is questioned just as much as a man's
Wed Nov 27, 2013, 02:33 AM
Nov 2013

If a man is accused of rape by a woman, is he not entitled to a defense? Is his lawyer not allowed to make the suggestion that the accuser is a liar? Is that lawyer not permitted to point out inconsistencies in the accuser's story or call witnesses that bring into question the credibility of the accuser?

A man's credibility can be equally attacked in a court of law (or in the public opinion). There is no inequality here.

A woman who accuses a man of a rape, is scrutinized just as anybody else who accuses someone of a crime.

Why Syzygy

(18,928 posts)
38. Reporting false rape
Wed Nov 27, 2013, 03:08 AM
Nov 2013

happens about 2%-8% of the time. No. I do not think a man, who is guilty 92 out of 100 times is scrutinized just as much. He is often given the benefit of the doubt due to societal conditioning which labels all women as guilty all the time. .. Even of the greatest sin of all... eating a goddamn apple.

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
40. The man gets the benefit of the doubt because he's innocent until proven guilty
Wed Nov 27, 2013, 03:31 AM
Nov 2013

Any person accused of a crime (including rape) in the United States has a right to a fair trial, due process, and demand the accuser prove their accusations beyond all reasonable doubt. Those things are enshrined in our Bill of Rights.

Why do we do it that way? To protect that 2-8% who are falsely accused.

What exactly are you suggesting? That we change the system so men accused of rape have to prove their innocence?

Why Syzygy

(18,928 posts)
41. Yes, of course...
Wed Nov 27, 2013, 11:55 AM
Nov 2013

Let's change the system.

The benefit of the doubt extends far beyond the justice system, and I think you know that.
Women who are lying are usually quickly discovered, and never go to trial.

Any man is capable of making sure his sexual partner is giving consent. Rapists know that isn't the case when they rape.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
42. How often are male defendants asked about irrelevant past sexual experiences in court...?
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 08:21 PM
Dec 2013

"Women's credibility is questioned just as much as a man's..."

How often are male defendants asked about irrelevant past sexual experiences in court to determine if they are lying or not about the here and now?

Why Syzygy

(18,928 posts)
44. Exactly.
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 10:03 PM
Dec 2013

Trying to describe a rosy glow of 'justice' around a courtroom trial for a rapist is disgusting and ludicrous.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
45. Really?
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 10:06 PM
Dec 2013

In what other crime does the person who accuses someone of a crime receive the amount of questioning as a rape victim? Theft? Battery? Computer pirating? Animal abuse? Shoplifting? Where else does the person making the complaint get ripped apart like rape victims get ripped apart?

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
46. There is usually evidence in those other cases
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 10:46 PM
Dec 2013

A rape is many times a case of "he said, she said" with no other witnesses or evidence. So the only thing a jury has to go on is credibility of the man and the woman.

That's why many of these cases never make it to trial. All it takes is one juror to have a "reasonable doubt" that the woman is lying and the case is over.

Like I said...yes, the man gets the benefit of the doubt in such cases. Why? Because he's the defendant. The defendant gets the benefit of the doubt. It's the prosecution's job to prove a crime occurred AND that a law was broken, AND that the defendant is guilty of breaking that law.
I understand this puts a female accuser at an extreme disadvantage, but this is how our justice system works. You need proof to convict somebody.

It's a bit of a bug in the system. But 2% of rape accusations are false. So if you are going to change this system, you need to change it in a way that assures that those 2% are protected. I don't want anyone innocent going to prison. That's just as much as an injustice as a rapist walking free.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
47. are you actually inferring a woman's prior sex life is "evidence" of some sort, David?
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 10:54 PM
Dec 2013

WTF does it have to do with a crime reported a different day? Or her credibility overall?
Please do explain.

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
48. I didnt say that...
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 11:15 PM
Dec 2013

...I said when you have a case of a he said, she said, credibility of the parties becomes practically the entire case.

Say a guy and girl meet at a party. They are drinking a little, having some laughs and appear to he having a good time, not totally drunk. People see them both walk out together and no one notices anything unusual. The next day, the woman calls the cops and claims to have been raped. The man claims sex occurred but that it was consensual.

What do you want the jury to do?

Of course the defense in such a case will attack her credibility. They will attack her statements made to the police. They will question every part of her story. They will grill her on the stand. I don't particularly like the idea of them going into a woman's past sexual history since it's irrelevant (and juries may frown on such tactics if that's all the defense seems to do), but a defense attorney has the job to defend his/her client.

We don't throw people in prison for years just because one person makes an accusation. That's how innocent people end up incarcerated.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
49. I want the jury to NOT have any opportunity to know or judge her prior sex life. I would like
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:50 AM
Dec 2013

anyone who discusses the issue come right out and say just how rare false allegations actually are, instead of pretending that it is something that happens very frequently.

Pretending it happens frequently enough to be a big issue is part of the problem that the OP is talking about.

CrispyQ

(36,221 posts)
51. Police & prosecutors would never dare suggest
Sun Feb 9, 2014, 08:17 PM
Feb 2014

that a robbery victim was to blame for the crime perpetrated against them because they were in a questionable neighborhood, or because they were out alone at night or because they were wearing an expensive Rolex in public. Rape victims are not only asked all of these questions, if they don't have "suitable" answers, which are steeped in the patriarchy's view of how women should & should not behave, then their credibility is questioned.

CrispyQ

(36,221 posts)
50. This:
Sun Feb 9, 2014, 07:58 PM
Feb 2014
I find it sad and disturbing that children learn so quickly and normatively to distrust women. Any commitment to parity means challenging the stories we tell them. It means critically assessing the comforting institutions we support out of nostalgia, habit, and tradition. It means walking out of places of worship, not buying certain movie tickets, closing some books, refusing to pay for some music, and politely disagreeing with friends and family at the dinner table. It's not easy. But, really, what's the alternative?
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»How We Teach Our Kids Tha...