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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsComedian Jay Leggett dies after killing deer
CNN) -- Comedian Jay Leggett, who produced a documentary about the joys of deer hunting, died of natural causes at the end of a deer hunt Saturday.
Leggett, 50, collapsed and died next to his all-terrain vehicle at the end of a hunt on the first day of gun deer season in his native Tomahawk, Wisconsin, according to Lincoln County sheriff's spokesman Mike Caylor. A deer that Leggett had killed was strapped to the ATV.
Leggett's 2011 film "To the Hunt: Deer Season in Tomahawk, Wisconsin" documented deer camp life and "the fun, family and fraternity of the hunt," according to promotional materials.
"The victim had returned to the cabin from his deer stand on an ATV," the sheriff's statement said. "When he got off the machine he collapsed and was found unresponsive by family members who immediately started CPR."
http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/25/showbiz/jay-leggett-death/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
I suppose you could say he died doing what he enjoyed...or kharma finally got him. RIP
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Brother Buzz
(36,416 posts)would be still ticking.
I'm just saying.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)know why people died.
Brother Buzz
(36,416 posts)
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)
Bucky
(53,998 posts)At long last, have you no decency?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)There are posters here in DU that are famous for it. It involves insinuation by question. "Was Obama born in Kenya?" or in this case, " A massive heart attack isn't a natural cause for death?" It's manipulation of an argument by asking questions. You can get away with a lot if you just put it in the form of a question. "Dont you like Democrats?"
See here for JAQing off, "http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/JAQing_off"
warrant46
(2,205 posts)There are always 6 to 9 fatal heart attacks in the 9 day gun deer season.
Its no different than the first snow fall when a dozen or so out of shape humans die of an MI by shoveling heavy wet snow.
Dragging a 175 pound deer for a distance out of a wet snowy slippery woods is not for the out of shape or faint of heart.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)It never fails.
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)Yes, Karma is my philosophy. What goes around comes around.
orleans
(34,049 posts)was that why my beautifully sweet friend was strangled when she was seventeen years old? because she deserved to die? because she was so wicked in a past life that this time around she got what was coming? because the universe doesn't care if we atone or learn lessons from life to life--it wants to punish our wrongdoings no matter how much we have changed and grown--because the universe is just as unforgiving as some people's gods?
karma is crap. the philosophy works for people who are not personally familiar with tragedy. it's also a cop out for those who don't want to be bothered attaining a deeper understanding other than "what goes around comes around."
wait...i believe that is also referred to as "an eye for an eye"
i think there is a certain amount of irony in someone dying after having been hunting and killing. but i'd hardly say it was karma. where was his karma after all of his other hunts & kills? why did the karma kick in today and not two years ago when he killed several deer? or ten years ago?
i wonder if people who believe in karma are still able to flippantly say "it was his karma" or "what goes around comes around" when someone they love and care for suffers, hurts, or comes upon tragedy.
and if the deer got revenge then imagine how it will be punished in the next life for seeking revenge...
venting...& it's all just my opinion obviously. (i was just talking about my friend to someone last night, thinking about her, missing her, wondering how her life would have been, how my life would have been with her presence in it for awhile longer, and so many other what-ifs including all of her birthdays that never came. so i'm extra touchy on this karma shit tonight i guess)
mattclearing
(10,091 posts)*drops the mic*
orleans
(34,049 posts)mattclearing
(10,091 posts)I can't imagine the loss you must feel. I hope you are able to find some peace.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)"a curse on your family" too many times to count, I appreciated it more than you will ever know.
:hugs: And a thought for those unfortunates who we've lost over the years.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)
hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)Earlier this year, a very affluent old high school classmate of mine lost two sons in a very strange and very tragic car accident. Everyone that was familiar with the details of the accident was amazed at how it had happened and that both boys were killed. It was sad that two young lives were lost.
When the families began the funeral and griefing process, they posted various pictures of the boys in Africa and other countries with animals dead in front of them. The boys proudly showed their large rifles strapped to their shoulders. Great big grins covered their faces at their "prizes".
I make no comment as to whether or not karma (or perhaps more aptly "Mother Nature"
took revenge on these two boys for their kills because I don't know the answer to that, but I do admit that the thought of karma has crossed my mind.
I do not think it is wrong to kill for food. I do think it is most assuredly wrong to kill for mere sport.
Sometimes I think the earth reminds us who is really in charge here.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)
narnian60
(3,510 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)because karma. gee thanks, have not heard that one in years.
random horrible things happen to very good people. and good people know that, and that "karma" " there;s a curse on that family" and "it is god's will" are ignorant and very cruel things to say.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Thank you.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Thoughtless voo doo crap is just more victim blaming. Pisses me off to no end.
And you, Meemie, are very welcome. 
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)It got him exactly nowhere.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts) hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)I'm sorry about your tragedy.
You need to re-read my post comprehensively. Specifically the part where I state that I don't know the answer to the question as to whether this was karma or not. I don't. And neither do you.
You equate someone killing big game animals for pleasure with children hit by a drunk driver. I wouldn't equate those two situations.
I don't appreciate you calling me cruel and ignorant. I found that quite hurtful.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I know you don't see it because you dislike that hunter but plenty of good people have random misfortune and some people always come out of the woodwork to say "it's god's will" or "Karma" and it is a very hurtful thing to tell the bereaved. But peolpe do, every time. So, next time before you spew it realize it others may actually think that this is your take on how life actually works, and not just a silly one off comment.
BTW, His death, and not the hunting was equated to my sisters death. And plenty of people did say such stupid things.
hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)It is an opinion. Just because my opinion happens to differ from yours does not make my (or anyone else's) comments cruel.
Where have I "told the bereaved" anything? I was merely sharing a story in answer to another post about karma. If I choose to believe or not believe in karma, it is my business. There's no "cruel" intent on my part in simply discussing the matter.
Perhaps if you are overly sensitive about the subject, you should refrain from participating in discussions involving the subject. Good grief!
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)but, carry on blaming people for whatever misfortunes befall them. Make sure your loved ones know you think they brought it all on themselves, LOL. Way to go.
renate
(13,776 posts)I agree with you that posing above dead animals with big smiles on their faces was gross, but yikes, the idea that terrible things only happen to people who deserve it is pretty distressing. Sandy Hook comes immediately to mind but there are examples to counteract that hypothesis every single day in every single newspaper in the world.
I absolutely believe you didn't mean to sound unfeeling towards people who have either suffered or seen loved ones suffering, truly I do. But tragedies happen to good people, too.
hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)I specifically state in my post that I have no answer as to whether this was karma or not. Just that it made me think about karma.
No, I didn't mean to sound unfeeling, but more importantly - I didn't sound unfeeling. I merely relayed a personal experience.
renate
(13,776 posts)My apologies. 
hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)I hope you and your family have a wonderful Thanksgiving! Be safe and enjoy yourself.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)i guess now when you suffer a sudden deep loss, and hear this crap about gods will / karma, you'll think you deserved it.
DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)DragonBorn
(175 posts)Did this guy do something vile I am not aware of and that's why some people here appear to be dancing in his blood?
Or is it the fact that he's a hunter? If it's because he's a hunter, let me ask you. Are you a some militant vegetarian?
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)And I sure hope they all got down next to him for a few pictures for the mantel.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)
Moose, but close enough.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)In the last season I hunted, my old hunting buddy shot a nice buck. Less than 2 weeks later, he died in a blizzard when his pickup corssed the denter lane into an oncoming semi.
He always had a sort of childlike excitement about hunting. I have always been glad that he got that last deer.
That said, I have to admit that I just sent this pic to all the hunters in my family.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Disgusting.
Hunting should be done for obtaining food only, and that only if absolutely necessary. Anything beyond that is pure sickness.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)I don't have to but after seeing a documentary of factory farms, and how they pump those animals full of steroids, I vowed to never buy meat at a grocery store again, and I haven't, the meat tastes much better, I'm helping with conservation and I just plain enjoy the thrill of the hunt.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Watching an animal die is a "thrill " to you?
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)on my table and what I don't use, I donate to the food pantries in town.
I suppose you don't mind others doing your killing of animals for you, after all, that packaged meat you buy in the store, it had to come from somewhere.
Ilsa
(61,694 posts)You consume what you hunt because you need the food; you aren't looking for trophies. I'm happy that you are able to do this.
I've lived in area that was deer overpopulated. A state-directed hunt helped bring down the population.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)I have nothing but contempt for trophy hunters, they're scum in my opinion, I also have nothing but contempt for those that condemn those of us that hunt for food but yet, don't mind buying meat in the stores.
Ilsa
(61,694 posts)My former best friend would get all excited about it. I don't like killing things. I find it unnerving. But if I had to hunt to eat, I know I can make myself do it.
In general, I don't eat very much meat. But I appreciate that there is behavioral and biological science behind both killing and processing our foods.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)with those that feel squeamish about killing, my problem comes when they condemn me for hunting but yet go buy that processed meat in a market, knowing full well how those animals are raised, injected full of chemicals, slaughtered and processed so they can have their chicken, or steak.
Ilsa
(61,694 posts)leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)get into traffic and become a horrible casualty when they dart into the highway, get hit by a car and run off to die slowly. Not to mention the people in the car also have damage and potential death because the deer ran into the road.
Deer in the headlights. It's not just a saying.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)happens to the plant. Nothing likes to die, so why don't we eat air and sunshine? Or stop being assuming, forcing arguments to fit our already made up minds.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Unless of course the condemnation is targeted at the entertainment one may receive from killing rather than the killing itself.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"I have nothing but contempt for trophy hunters, they're scum in my opinion..."
If both the ends and the means are the same, what then is the precise and relevant ethical difference...?
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)
MADem
(135,425 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)By me and others.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)It doesn't make it "better" if some minimum wage slave does your dirty work for you. That fricassee on your plate was murdered by someone--for your benefit. You have to own that, even if you don't want to.
And "nutritional purposes?" Bull. Soy is great nutrition. So are beans. How about eggs--they're an animal product, unfertilized, and no creature needs to die for your omelette.
People eat chicken because it is tasty. Fried, stewed, baked, broiled, chicken is goooooooooooooooood eatin'! But don't--not for a second--try to take the moral high ground because you didn't have the guts to wring the bird's neck, and instead, let some poor Jamaican on a work visa at Tyson down in Alabama do the job for seven bucks an hour so you didn't have to trouble yourself with the reality of where your dinner came from.
No one is buying your excuses, here. The difference between you and the dead guy is that he went out and got his supper himself. He may have yucked around with his pals, but he put his money where his mouth is.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Unless of course the condemnation is directed at the enjoyment and entertainment one may receive from killing rather than the act itself.
Therein, to me, lies the relevant and precise difference. However, I can certainly understand the visceral need to rationalize as hypocrisy it as you did, denying the existence of other premises without giving though to them.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)But this read like something Sarah Palin would say, i.e. word salad that pontificates but I can't figure out what you are pontificating about.
You sound good, though. Edifying, and brisk.
I just don't know what in the fuck you were saying.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Some people like being self-reliant, and doing a job properly and well, particularly one that is difficult and takes skill to do correctly. There is a "thrill" in achieving these sorts of goals. Hunting is just one self reliant, difficult job if done well (and the killing bit might be the worst/most depressing part of it, for all we know--we'd have to ask), making furniture or building a barn is another. Preparing a wedding cake for 300 that looks like a Ferrari might be another "thrill."
The guy that died is the one that first caught Chicken Eater's grief--the dude who finds a thrill in doing a job well is just a side target because he noticed her hypocrisy--as did others.
Reread the whole thread.
It's a hypocritical stance. Ya don't like deer hunting, ya shouldn't be eating meat. This dead guy wasn't hunting rhinos so he could have a head for his den-he was hunting deer because venison was on the menu.
And yeah...what Aerows said, too.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)You should look it in the eye, kill it, skin it and then eat it.
If you are expecting someone to complain about hunters that eat their own kills, provide venison and other meat to their neighbors that might not otherwise have any on the table, don't look at me.
I have fish in the freezer given to me by a fisherman that does it for love of the sport, and some venison, too. It's damned good in the crockpot.
People that get up in arms about hunting, but then turn right around and eat meat just look silly.
piedmont
(3,462 posts)RebelOne
(30,947 posts)I love animals. They are my friends, and I don't eat my friends.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)He didn't mind killing innocent animals for fun. Btw, you're blocked.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)I would guess those chickens were pretty innocent of wrongdoing as well. But as long as it's all neatly packaged and she had nothing to do with the slaughter...
"I've eaten chicken feet in soup... Its the only way to "eat" whatever lil meat is there."
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Good to see you again, screaming.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Your argument is a bit false.
Only some "innocent" animals are saved for your pity.
That's hypocritical and disingenuous.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Hunting for fun and thrill us not the same thing as being omnivorous and consume animal meat.
Think again. LOL!!!
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)All meat is "hunted." It's exactly the same thing. In fact, some would say the factory farming of your chicken feet is worse.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)They hunt for the "thrill" if it. They consider killing wild animals a sport. Nothing to do with food. Look at Ted Nugent. Lol..
Have a nice afternoon, screaming.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)I've hunted all my life and my experience with other hunters completely contradict the nonsense she's trying to push here.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)it to those who do.
Get off your high horse and look in the fucking mirror. Those hunters are far more honorable than you who sits on your ass while someone else abuses then kills the animals you shove in your pie hole.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)How to feel about hunting. I don't aprove of sport hunting, never have and never will.
You throwing condescending comments just shows the fact that you can't deal with other opinions. I'm not alone in this, there are millions of people who oppose thrill hunting.
Good luck trying to change the way we feel about it.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Enjoy!! 
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)103. Yeah, *I'M* the one who 'can't deal'. lol. Go stuff some more factory farmed chicken in your piehole
Enjoy!!
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Keeping it up for posterity.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Maybe get a tattoo.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)"Do as I say, not as I do" is what the poster is advocating.
It's extreme hypocrisy.
MADem
(135,425 posts)This thread is just chock-a-block full of some serious hypocrisy....
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)But meat eaters who get huffy about hunters are INSANE to me.
If anything, it should be REQUIRED we hunt the meat we eat. It's crazy!! 
Also - we are not talking about endangered animals or big game. This is about deer. They need to be hunted for herd control and CWD.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)And every single one of them eats what they kill. I have no problem with hunting, I really mean that. But I get queasy when someone talks about the 'thrill' of hunting. Hunting to feed your family, or because it's more compassionate than factory-farmed meat is one thing, but to call it 'thrilling' bothers me. Makes it seem like they are taking far more enjoyment in the slaughter than needed.
Don't mean to quibble over semantics, but I think that wording is awkward.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)I don't take thrill in killing the animal, I take thrill in being in the outdoors, the thrill of tracking the deer, the thrill of taking it down cleanly without the animal suffering, and the thrill of putting fresh meat on my table and donating fresh meat to the local food pantries.
MADem
(135,425 posts)doing...
MADem
(135,425 posts)There were years when that deer in the freezer kept the kids fed.
Every hunter I know (and admittedly, they're all pals of my relative, and they take the same respectful approach that he does) isn't slaughtering animals and leaving them to rot in the woods. They're responsible and they leave the woods the same as they found 'em, too.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Noted
MADem
(135,425 posts)but you won't allow a person who has the integrity to do the job himself the same courtesy?
Talk about a high horse! Talk about condescending comments! Talk about not only being able to deal with "other opinions," you're making up a rule that says "It's ok for meeeeeeee, but not for you!"
Your "opinion" is what most people would call hypocrisy: Do as I say, not as I do.
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)I'm just being up front, ....I love to hunt most all big game, and certainly every game bird I have access. I am not asking you to change your mind, and I don't want to waste your time if you think you will change mine, however I do have a question that relates to both our perspectives.
I do not hunt in order to provide meat, although I do prefer wild game to anything farm raised. I hunt because it offers more than "thrill" killing, if you don't know what I mean then it is pointless for us to discuss what hunting offers...however there is an aspect of game management that we both will agree on, and I'm curious what you think. I rarely meet a hunter that isn't grateful for just the opportunity to go hunting and share the experience, a full tag is a huge bonus, but an empty tag does NOT mean a failed hunt.
My Question:
Game management relies on the game department making a count of animals in the region, and the ability of the land to support X number of animals. The number of big game tags, and/or game bird bag limits and the sex of those allowed to be taken are a direct correlation to the population of animals that area will support. Without managing animal populations thru hunting, how would the population be controlled ? Starvation, and disease will devastate wild game populations without harvesting quotas, so ignoring the fact that I am "pro hunting", what would be a realistic alternative to game management ?
caveat: people are not going to stop breeding and building cities, however.... even if no new births occurred, game management would still be necessary. Game management is a real issue, there are limited solutions, I'm curious what your preferred solution to game management would be ?
Beringia
(4,316 posts)Coyotes, crows, mourning doves, elk, raccoon, fox, bobcat. And coyote populations are not "controlled" by hunting. It in fact makes more coyotes because there are not stable families. Mourning doves have about 1 bite of meat on them. Crows are shot in the thousands just for fun. Why in the heck do you have "peace" in your name. You don't deserve it.
Coyote Fact Sheet
http://www.projectcoyote.org/ProjectCoyote_FactSheet_CoyoteNews.pdf
ALBUQUERQUE (KRQE) - Another coyote hunt this weekend is sparking controversy. However, this time the organizer says much of the proceeds go to charity to help terminally ill children, while protestors argue a killing contest is no way to raise money. This weekend, at least 34 teams of two are out hunting coyotes for prizes, but there were several people near Central Avenue Saturday speaking out against wildlife killing contests. Protestors stood outside the University of New Mexico campus Saturday, calling wildlife killing contests a blood sport, and hate crimes against animals. "There's other ways to raise money, killing for entertainment is still killing for entertainment, and charity is no excuse to go out and kill as many animals as you can," said Elizabeth Dicharry, contest protestor.
http://www.krqe.com/news/local/charity-coyote-hunt-sparks-protests
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)Or just read this in the news ?
Beringia
(4,316 posts)
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)I'm not sure how you can seek to separate them. In my family, there are some hunters. All respect the animals and are conservationists. There is no killing for fun except in so far as hunting with your family can be fun. I think you need to see a bigger picture here.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Is the hunter eating what he kills? If so, no problem.
You eat what others kill for you. Which is worse???
If you're going to continue these missions, you should at the very least become a vegetarian. Until you stop supporting the inhumane treatment of factory farmed animals, you're a hypocrite of the worst sort.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Cheeseheads know.
I am surrounded by hunters. Literally. Right this minute. Good people, all of them. They eat what they hunt or they donate to the hungry. It's a way of life here. In addition, the deer population NEEDS to be culled. For the safety of the deer and the people.
ugh, i hate hypocrites.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)It's how we made ends meet when we were first married.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)The best way to control the deer would be to kill females, and yet most hunters and the Wildlife agencies allow or go after the big males.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)as a life long hunter, I can tell you that you're 100% wrong, hunting is controlling the population, and, each year, there are a limited number of Doe tags sold, which is part of the deer pop. control.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)A recent book called “Deer Wars” by Robert Frye, 2006 discussed the problem of hunters interfering with proper deer management, and the adverse effects of too many deer on Pennsylvania forests.
Richard Gerstell, a biologist with the Game Commission in 1938, tried to educate sportsmen about the need to balance deer with their habitat in an article he wrote for the Pennsylvania Game News magazine entitled “Pennsylvania Deer Problem in 1938.” Gerstell warned of the need to balance the deer herd with the forest ecosystem. “Steps must be taken to remedy present conditions or both the deer herd and the deer range will suffer unprecedented and irreparable losses,” he wrote.
What concerned Gerstell was that deer were dying in winter because of malnutrition. Field officers for the Game Commission did a survey from December 16, 1934 to May1, 1935, in which they collected 964 deer that had died from “pathological causes” – that is, something other than old age, gunshot wounds, accidents, or the like. Of those deer, fewer than 1 percent died from poisoning. Fewer than 1 percent died from parasites. Another 7 percent died of unknown causes. The majority – 881 of the deer, more than 91 percent – died from malnutrition.
“The demand for food exceeded the available supply and all suitable and attainable food was consequently devoured without fulfilling the demand. The deer, therefore, consumed various greens, twigs and other materials in an attempt to satisfy their craving for food and in doing so filled their stomachs, but the material contained therein was so low in actual food value that although the stomach was full, the animals perished from lack of nourishment.”
Gerstell concluded that the only real solution was for hunters to shoot more does, thereby decreasing the deer population enough to let the forest repair itself.
(p. 58, Deer Wars)
-------------------------------------------
The book “Deer Wars” also describes how both Roger Latham, a biologist dedicated to solving the problem of Pennsylvania deer overpopulation and overbrowsing of forests in the 1950s, and another proponent of proper deer management, Gary Alt who was head of the Game Commission for several years, leaving in 2004, were both driven out by the hunting community who did not want to follow their sage advice on how to manage deer populations.
Ultimately, though, Roger Latham was fired, his sin having been to argue for trimming Pennsylvania’s deer herd. He wanted hunters to shoot more deer overall, and to shoot more does in particular, to bring the herd into line with their available habitat, to prevent the possible outbreak of disease, to make the state’s forests a better home to a greater variety of plants and animals, and to make the deer themselves healthier, bigger, and less susceptible to starvation. (p 16)
Regarding Gary Alt who gave lectures to the Pennsylvania hunters on how to manage deer.
“Hunter expectations were developed in an era with extremely high deer densities”, Gary Alt says (former head of Pennsylvania Game Commission). “That caused a love affair with seeing lots of deer. They loved it so much they got hooked on it. That fueled their desires. The result, though, was that those desires prevented deer management, and caused billions of dollars in ecological damage. (p 240)
“When you read the history of deer management in this state, it reads like a horror novel,” former Game Commission Gary Alt says. “Every time anyone tried to change things by talking about deer in relationship to their habitat, they just got killed. They either quit, got transferred or got fired. (p. 22)
At each lecture, he would talk to hundreds of people abut the need to balance the number of deer with the available habitat. The lectures were hot. Sportsmen opposed to Alt's would show up ready to shout him down. Law enforcement officials within the Game Commission persuaded him to wear a bulletproof vest to his lectures.
-------------------------------------
Pennsylvania’s Deer Problem, Roger Latham, 1950, Pennsylvania Game News,
http://whitetaileddeer.angelfire.com/deer/deerindex.html
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Not the case in these parts.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Most states with deer problems have a mandatory "must shoot" for does before they will issue a buck tag. Doe and cow (for elk) tags are the primary ways state agencies control wildlife numbers. Prime example, Colorado uses cow elk tags and antler point restrictions to control herd population and age recruitment.
Where do you get your information from?
Beringia
(4,316 posts)Bob Frye is an award winning outdoors journalist and the Outdoors Editor of the Tribune-Review.
also this article
Pennsylvania’s Deer Problem, Roger Latham, 1950, Pennsylvania Game News,
http://whitetaileddeer.angelfire.com/deer/deerindex.html
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Just stop.
And on edit:
You give me a book from 2006 and an article from 1950?
Seriously?
Beringia
(4,316 posts)And a 1950 article, because that is when some groundwork research was done.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Question: Do you still take sulfa if you get an infection?
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)and now you're a fucking expert?
Have you ever picked up a rifle and hunted?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)from the back of a cereal box from the information displayed so far in this thread.
I have doe meat in the freezer right now from my cousin that went hunting. If we didn't have hunters in this area, we would be overrun. As it is, you have to be careful because they run across the damn roads at night. You would think that people would prefer them being mercifully killed and eaten instead of taking out a driver and their passengers while hobbling away to die slowly.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)In Minnesota, antlerless deer tags are issued by lottery in some areas, and in other areas with more deer, it is legal to shoot either a buck or an antlerless deer. In some states, there is a tradition of shooting only bucks, but that is not the case where I live. By the way, bucks service a lot of does each year, especially the larger bucks.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)Jenoch
(7,720 posts)You seem to believe you're a deer and deer hunting expert because you read about a book and study on a single population of deer in a single state.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)about managing deer and who were they written by. It has nothing to do with my thinking or not thinking I am an expert. These are rational arguments, not "oh I am a professor" or I have studied this personally in every state.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)professionals. That book you read was about the deer population of one area over 60 years ago. It does not have relevance to deer populations across the entire country. I would not be certain it is still relevant in Pennsylvania today.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Seriously. That fucking article was written in 1950, before MANAGEMENT even was popular, the "golden age" of big game hunting in America.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)Management of sports animals is based on keeping hunters happy.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)In the heart of elk country. I later lived in Alaska. I have personally seen wildlife management change for the better since I was a kid. You don't know what you are talking about. I doubt you have ever actually seen a wild grizzly, mountain lion, or even heard a bull elk bugle (except on tv or maybe Estes Park). I suspect your education is all book-based and overly sensationalized.
Anyone who would reference a state like Pennsylvania to make a point about big game management....Really? That is like citing Kansas's laws and policies for beach front property.
Why don't you pick some studies done by professors at CSU?
Here is one for you, there is something very unique about elk management in Wyoming. No other state does it. Tell me what it is and I might give you a bit of street cred.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)A quick, merciful death and a hunter that brings back meat for family and friends, or a deer hit by a car, injuring the driver and passenger then hobbling away to die a slow, agonizing death?
If you think option number 2 doesn't happen, you might just be urban/suburban and have no clue about wildlife in areas outside of your bubble.
If you have ever had to slam on your brakes because three deer ran out in front of your car, then you will know what I mean. If you don't even know what a deer looks like in your headlights, you will likely think that it is just a saying and not a reality.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)Studies have shown the way to bring down populations is to kill mainly does. And I know overpopulation causes fatalities and car crashes, which is another reason that deer should be properly managed. I really think someone should file suit against the local DNR when getting into an accident with a deer. Everyone's insurance rates go up because of it.
Also for every deer killed, there is likely several that are severely wounded and go off to die without being found.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)You agree that overpopulation of deer is dangerous to drivers. You agree that management of said populations is a good idea.
Where you lost me is that people shouldn't be allowed to shoot them and feed their families and their friends and neighbors. I don't understand that part. Hunters that shoot will track down their kill. People that accidentally hit one aren't interested in hunting deer for food, and will drive or get towed away.
Hunting helps slim down the population, and puts great stuff on the grill and in the crock pot.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)As I said before. There is an overpopulation because the solution to keeping the population down which is kill only does is not done. That is because hunters object to killing only does. Overpopulation causes car accidents.
earlier you said that hunter objected to killing only males.
Now you are arguing that they object to killing only does.
Overpopulation does cause car accidents, and pain for everyone involved, including the animal that tends to run off and die painfully.
I'm still going back to the first part of your assertions. "hunters object to killing only does"
No, that is the best meat. Does get hit by cars just as much as bucks do, if not more so. A smart hunter wants doe meat because it is more tender.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I do too! Perheps you should get to know me before throwing silky accusations.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Sorry. But I'm not the one throwing "silky accusations" while enjoying the "sacrifices" of my grandmother and the grocery store.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Is that so hard to understand?
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Is that so hard to understand.
The stuff you're putting in your mouth is no different than that which the hunter eats.
Hypocrisy on display.
Newsflash, your grandmother "hunted."
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Have a nice evening.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts) backwoodsbob
(6,001 posts)you keep bringing up *the thrill of hunting* without understanding and willfully not listening to what hunters are saying
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)I said I enjoy the thrill of the hunt, she twisted my words into a pretzel, I enjoy the thrill of the hunt, meaning that I enjoy being in the wild, tracking the animal, and a clean kill, but she won't see this because she blocked me.
I do eat everything I hunt and what I don't eat or freeze, I donate to our local food pantries for the less fortunate.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)in my family. I understood what you meant. My husband loved the outdoors, loved nature, and loved animals. He was a responsible hunter who brought home the kill for his family to eat. I miss that when it comes to grocery bills these days.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)in the butcher shop. I did not get my jollies off of it, but it never overly bothered me either. End result is the same. Dead. ass.animal. You don't need to make excuses. If you like to hunt, good for you. If you waste the meat, you are breaking the law. If you shoot an endangered animal, you are breaking the law. If you like to hunt big deer, good for you. Time to quit apologizing for something as natural as the rising the the setting of the sun.
Torturing an animal, shooting them and letting them rot, killing endangered animals for boner pills or whatnot, that shit is depraved but also illegal. Killing a deer or a goose or a duck is ethical, legal, and there is no reason to apologize for it.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)Do most hunters really hunt for the thrill of it rather than for food?
That hasn't been my experience...to a person, every hunter I know eats what they hunt.
The meat locker in our area even dresses deer that hunters bring in. 
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)cyberswede
(26,117 posts)maybe my questions are too difficult?
Or maybe I'm on ingore. 
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)You are way off base here, I gotta tell you.
Provide some proof to back that claim up.
I don't hunt, and I also have no problem with people who do. Every hunter I've known that hunt do it for enjoyment and for meat they can bring home. Every hunter I know considers people who shoot to kill animals something less than hunters.
But that's my experience. You made a blanket accusation, I'd like to see the proof of that.
Sissyk
(12,665 posts)the statement "You fail to realize most hunters don't hunt for food"?
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Several have asked you... on what are you basing that 'most hunters dont hunt for food' statement?
11 Bravo
(23,926 posts)Sarah Palin represents "most Alaskans". Intellectually lazy, and frankly, more than a little bit ignorant.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I know quite a few that hunt to keep venison in the freezer so there is meat on the table, and people that fish.
That has to be one of the most sanctimonious judgments ever laid about people that I have ever read on DU, and we have had some real winners. Meat eater, lays into people that hunt wild game and then eat it.
Plain silly.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)And hopefully you didn't enjoy any of it while you were doing so.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)Hunting is a necessity for population control, and so long as the meat isn't wasted, I have no problem with people who partake in hunting. To be a meat eater then call hunters out is pure hypocrisy.
I'm sure I'll be enjoying a cozy spot in your ignore list, and given what I've seen, that'll be a compliment.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)I am sure the poor chicken does not have to scruple between those who kill for fun vs. those who kill for food. In the end, her life is over.
I grew up on a ranch and I worked in my uncle's butcher shop as a kid. Every year we raised and then butchered 75 chicken. We also killed several steers for the family and more than a few hogs and lambs. In the butcher shop, shit was not like it is today. We did not get 1/4 beefs vacuum sealed. We killed our own every week. You know what? Dead is fucking dead. Animals are self-aware be they a huge red stag or a lowly ass meat rabbit. When slaughter time comes, they know what the hell is going on, and they are not too keen on the idea.
Non-vegetarians who claim moral superiority to hunters or ranchers or whatever grind my gears. Newsflash. We are not out there amputating limbs and taking skin grafts off of critters. If you eat meat, something died. Just because you lack the sack to do it yourself in no way makes you "better". Pretty snobbish in my opinion.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)pecking and cannibalism seen among stressed, overcrowded birds
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)I have seen it happen with my own two eyes. De-beaking isutal beyond words. But as long as we don't see it, it did not really happen...
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)which is exceedingly inhumane and despicable.
But you think hunting, an entirely natural occurrence, is morally wrong.
Yeah, you're a hypocrite. Must be a nice view from that high horse.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)It doesn't effect their viewing patterns and ability to see information on DU, just yours...
maybe send yourself a PM saying, ( I can't see this dude/ette anymore- losing 2% of content ) ?
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Please explain. Thanks
snooper2
(30,151 posts)You want to see my new uniform!
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)
enough
(13,256 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)You'd prefer to believe that the animal was born in a shrink-wrapped container snuggled tightly against a styrofoam backing or as a bag of frozen nuggets.
Killing an animal is killing an animal. Better to honestly kill than have others do it for you and then pretend that disconnect has imbued you with some sort of moral high ground.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)But in the pursuit or way laying of game evolved to avoid such, and to do so in their territory. I also take seriously the acts of gutting, skinning, quartering and butchering of the animals I kill.
To be sure, emotions are heightened when a deer you have been watching comes into a shooting "lane" and you take the shot, but those emotions should be suppressed enough to make an effective killing shot, so the animal is quickly recovered.
There is nothing inherently shameful when killing to eat. We all do it. And there is a thrill to hunting that can't be summoned up by buying meat under cellophane, or carrots-in-a-bag after being grown in a nature-displacing farm.
mainer
(12,022 posts)I have to agree with you about the eating part.
A deer provides some of the best tenderloin meat I've ever tasted, provided it's killed quickly, with a good shot.
I wouldn't enjoy hunting myself (I let my son do that) but I do appreciate the bounty from a single animal.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)Besides, those hooves and antlers will disembowel you real fast.
Here's an idea, why don't you try it out and get back to us in about 6 mos. after you recover, if you recover, and let us know how well it worked out.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 25, 2013, 11:59 PM - Edit history (1)
Brave? No.
Sensible, economical, safe? Yes.
DragonBorn
(175 posts)Do you think Shoprite gets steaks off the beef tree and lamb chops from a friendly sock puppet?
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)The guy enjoyed killing animals. Why should I feel sorry?
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)Big difference.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)That's not hunting for foid, that's something different. I'm not that stupid not to know the difference.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)Never accidentally misspelled something in your life genius?
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)As in I was very briefly a ranch employee a long time ago.
Response to Ranchemp. (Reply #28)
darkangel218 This message was self-deleted by its author.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Her hands are clean. She didn't kill the chicken. So that makes it "all right."
Response to MADem (Reply #77)
HERVEPA This message was self-deleted by its author.
Kali
(55,007 posts)there can be skill involved or it can be a boring canned hunt, there can be amusing trolls that are creative and funny, and then there are the juvenile flamey dumbasses.
simplistic black and white thinking is boring
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)
Logical
(22,457 posts)
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)would you still hunt? Get it now?
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)I hunt. And if "someone" gave me all the meat I wanted I would not have to hunt. But that "someone" would.
In your opinion, what kind of person would most hunters be like? A bunch of 1%'ers with heads mounted in their hunting lodges?
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)but someone still had to hunt that deer.
Deer/Elk hunting is the only meat I hunt, I also hunt Turkey, which my family will be enjoying this Thursday, Quail, Chucker, Dove.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Well, for the last two years of his life, my husband didn't need to hunt. He had a friend who hunted. The friend gave him one of his kills. We just had to get it dressed. So, I guess there's your answer. He didn't go.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)You very obviously don't know jack about hunting or hunters.
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)a big 10-point or bigger rack to hang on your wall.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)but I have never hung any rack on my walls. That is, IMO, tacky. I don't need to hang a deer head on my wall to prove I hunt.
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)for the adrenaline rush and the joy of killing.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)
corkhead
(6,119 posts)Beringia
(4,316 posts)large bucks with big antlers and do not care about scientific management of deer, by killing mostly does.
The book “Deer Wars” also describes how both Roger Latham, a biologist dedicated to solving the problem of Pennsylvania deer overpopulation and overbrowsing of forests in the 1950s, and another proponent of proper deer management, Gary Alt who was head of the Game Commission for several years, leaving in 2004, were both driven out by the hunting community who did not want to follow their sage advice on how to manage deer populations.
Ultimately, though, Roger Latham was fired, his sin having been to argue for trimming Pennsylvania’s deer herd. He wanted hunters to shoot more deer overall, and to shoot more does in particular, to bring the herd into line with their available habitat, to prevent the possible outbreak of disease, to make the state’s forests a better home to a greater variety of plants and animals, and to make the deer themselves healthier, bigger, and less susceptible to starvation. (p 16)
Regarding Gary Alt who gave lectures to the Pennsylvania hunters on how to manage deer.
“Hunter expectations were developed in an era with extremely high deer densities”, Gary Alt says (former head of Pennsylvania Game Commission). “That caused a love affair with seeing lots of deer. They loved it so much they got hooked on it. That fueled their desires. The result, though, was that those desires prevented deer management, and caused billions of dollars in ecological damage. (p 240)
“When you read the history of deer management in this state, it reads like a horror novel,” former Game Commission Gary Alt says. “Every time anyone tried to change things by talking about deer in relationship to their habitat, they just got killed. They either quit, got transferred or got fired. (p. 22)
At each lecture, he would talk to hundreds of people abut the need to balance the number of deer with the available habitat. The lectures were hot. Sportsmen opposed to Alt's would show up ready to shout him down. Law enforcement officials within the Game Commission persuaded him to wear a bulletproof vest to his lectures.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)now you're an expert on deer management and deer hunting?
Beringia
(4,316 posts)If one book tells the truth about a situation, and that situation is replicable in other states, then that book has weight. DNRs don't write books, they issue permits and count numbers of animals and they basically are the right hand of hunters, which needs to be changed.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)by hunters as a means of achieving herd balance in terms of sex, age, and land carrying capacity. Some states lag behind in the "bucks only" era. Most of the hunting ranches in Texas want good balance so they may sell the right to kill a "trophy buck" for 2-3 thousand dollars; for most of the rest of us, it's either an antlerless deer, or a buck with minimum inside spread. And that's fine with me and most hunters: What us there to brag about taking a fork-horn?
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)magazines across the country and I have plenty of evidence. All the stories were about nothing but trophy hunting.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)who hunt for food and ritual. I don't know a single one who has mounted a rack and they don't boast pictures. But they do share the food.
So...
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Scrub your journal before taking a stance.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Are they not?
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Sorry.
You're being hypocritical.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Have you ever hunted?
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)kept us fed and saved us money.
The hypocrisy is all on you. Sorry. You really should have thought about your chicken post before you took up this "battle."
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)You keep going on and on about me eating meat. A lot of people who oppose killing animals for fun/sport and not vegan. We don't have to be vegan to take a stand on that.
Your husband killed for food, I have nothing against that. It is not the same thing.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)than the innocence of a chicken.
Hypocrisy.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)And you keep saying something else. Whatever floats your boat.
Bye.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)That's it.
You have no idea why Jay Leggett hunted, and then you twisted the words of a DUer. Then, when you were asked about your own preference for factory-tortured chicken, you made up a story of your grandmother's animal sacrifices and then backpedaled. That's pretty much how this thread reads.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)You're flattering yourself. I don't lie, and trust me I wouldn't go to those lenghts to make a point, especially to you. Have a nice life.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)on her farm. She was killing them, so you could eat. Just like someone killed that package of chicken in your freezer.
And yes, these are some obviously crazy lengths you are going to.
I will add the nice-life-having to my good-afternoon-having. Thank you, darkangel.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Devolving into words like "pathetic" isn't really changing my mind on your blatant hypocrisy that is here for all to see.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)the much more honorable thing to do rather than relying upon other to do it for you.
Paladin
(28,252 posts)And I say that as a former hunter, as someone who killed and ate a lot of deer over the years, here in Texas. I walked away from hunting because (1.) I decided those deer looked better alive than dead, and venison isn't really that tasty; and (2.) I got tired of all the asshole right-wingers with whom I had to keep company. I have never regretted my decision. That whole "taking the responsibility of killing" thing doesn't cut it with me; laying guilt trips on people for acquiring their nourishment in a 21st century fashion isn't going to get you very far.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)You don't have to feel guilty about buying meat unless you are condemning hunting. If you think that killing a deer is wrong but killing a steer is ok, then tell that to the steer.
Why did you have to keep company with 'asshole right-wingers' to hunt.
I manage to hunt without that burden.
Paladin
(28,252 posts)I am against hunters who cop a superiority complex over people who get their meat in the usual, modern fashion.
And I had to associate with "asshole right-wingers" when I hunted because that's the sort of hunters you run into in Texas. I acknowledge that it's a different scene for you in Minnesota.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Obama and they hunt. Broad brushing people is always a bad idea. The reason people have taken this attitude in this thread is because an admitted chicken eater has placed the innocence of a deer above her need for chicken soup. That's all.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)I do have a problem with people who are anti hunting AND buy meat.
a la izquierda
(11,791 posts)The animals are dead either way. Either be a vegan or stop complaining.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Kali
(55,007 posts)
Response to darkangel218 (Reply #18)
Post removed
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Can't wait to see those posts.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Life shouldn't be taken unless absolutely necessary. Do you disagree with that?
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Sorry. Hypocritical.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)My grandma had a small farm with chickens and other animals. Every so often, she would sacrifice one for a meal. Did that mean she enjoyed doing it, or threw parties and snapped pictures with the dead animal? Of course not.
It is a HUGE difference between acquiring food and shooting and killing innocent animals for fun.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts) Hahahahaha
Sorry, hypocritical.
narnian60
(3,510 posts)The only meat I eat is fish, but oh, the hunters love to jump on that. They also start in on the "what about the leather for your shoes, purse, belt, etc." So tiresome. Have had to defend my position for 40 yrs. and have decided to just not engage with them especially since I live in Texas where I could be constantly arguing politics AND hunting. No thanks.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Its not worth it.
Thanks for the reply
chknltl
(10,558 posts)
MADem
(135,425 posts)Hey, they were tortured all their lives, it's a mercy, yes?
Whereas, killing a deer to feed your family, as one of my relatives does, why, that's unnecessary and pure vanity....
Advocating not taking the life of an animal, and then eating animals as a protein source, when other non-animal sources are readily available in any supermarket, is hypocritical. Do you disagree with that?
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)I think it would be an eye-opening experience for you.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)My God, what an embarrassing display you have produced on this thread.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)
Haha, yeah right.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)And what exactly does that mean? Only if someone would starve otherwise? Only if someone doesn't get animal protein otherwise? Is there an income cutoff? Tell me more.
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)outdoors magazines, and I had to read and edit hunting and fish stories all day. I wanted to slap the silly smiles off the hunters in the photos holding up the heads of their kill. All of the stories were about trophy hunting.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)Jenoch
(7,720 posts)Beringia
(4,316 posts)Government jobs are a big part of the employement picture.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)you responding to me?
Beringia
(4,316 posts)not Duh, and it is easier for a different person to respond. I stand up for people on occasion.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)
damnedifIknow
(3,183 posts)People post pictures of their kills all over Facebook like it's a phenomenal feat to shoot a defenseless animal.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)I used to be hardcore anti-hunting, but then I actually read studies done by biologists, ecologists, and the MN DNR about the importance of keeping the deer population down.
Now I have no problem with deer hunting.
liberalmuse
(18,672 posts)That being said, I have known people who hunt for food and I respect them. They use just about all the parts of the deer - freezing the venison for later use, drying it and making jerky, etc. They do it for sport in a way, but also because they like the meat and it will save them money. At least they see and experience what they kill rather than distance themselves from it. Hunting is certainly more humane than factory farming.
I don't condone hunting for the mere sport of it, just to get a trophy, though. I find that appalling and it should be illegal.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Its disgusting.
Skittles
(153,150 posts)the idea that they are ENTERTAINED by killing absolutely sickens me
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Hence I don't have any friends or acquaintances who do it.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Skittles
(153,150 posts)is that your argument?
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)This is my 'argument':
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4091693
Skittles
(153,150 posts)the deflection
yeah OK
you can be entertained by killing as long as you can point fingers
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)It's perfectly wonderful to condemn people for hunting while eating factory farmed meat!
Got it!!
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)hunting or hunters.
yes because here in Texas I don't know ANY hunters
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)There were recently 500,000 hunters in Minnesota hunting deer. Do you believe they're all the same?
Skittles
(153,150 posts)I know plenty of people who just CANNOT WAIT for hunting season to start 
I WOULD NEVER DATE ONE THEM
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)I'm one of those that can't hardly wait for deer/elk season to start, I know that I'll have a freezer full of chemical free meat for the winter and what I don't use goes towards the local food pantries for the less fortunate, who are damned glad for the nutritious food.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)Secretary Kerry claims to be a hunter, what do you think of him?
I too look forward to deer hunting season. I'm not sure what your point is.
otohara
(24,135 posts)I tell all my son's girl friends to stay far far away from men with guns.
ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)...the choice is either hunt the deer, experience a deer population explosion, or reintroduce natural predators which become scarce when humans move in.
Option one tends to be the choice because the second introduces everything from denuding of forested areas to the spread of diseases endemic to the deer population (like Lyme disease), and the third is of great concern to people abutting forested areas from a safety standpoint (specifically of children, but more generally to the entire population).
I find it odd that you don't consider humans innately predatory, going so far as to call it pure sickness. Our entire recorded history and unrecorded prehistory seem to suggest just that reality.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I find it odd that you don't see the difference.
ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)I seriously don't. If population control is the purpose, the purpose is served in either case. What does it matter if the dead carcass is eaten or stuffed?
I think you think I should have moral qualms about being a member of a sentient yet predative species. Well, I don't. I don't see why I should have them. Why should I be at odds with what I am from a biological standpoint?
Just so you know, I don't hunt, but I don't have any problem with people who do.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)So our conversation ends with a statement of indifference to the conversation by the person who was attempting to elevate the conversation above indifference. That's DU in a nutshell these days.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Why assume that we are never morally required to act contrary to what we "from a biological standpoint?"
ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)Nor do I accept the rhetorical implication of your query as unassailable axiom.
Turned around, why assume that we are always morally required to act contrary to what we [are] from a biological standpoint?Tur
I don't see morality as a fiat or even admonition coming from some divine, divine-like, or even naturalist punitive entity, but rather for what it is, a human construct that serves a societal end. Thus, morality is incumbent within the choices we make, and thus morality must be accepted by the individual, and does not manifest as a requirement. Our biology gives us certain proclivities which some might find immoral, but that's just it. I don't feel that the act of killing an animal is an incipiently immoral act. I think, to satisfy a reasonable moral framework, it should be purposeful, for example, I can look past trophy hunting if it is done in the service of culling an animal population which will go out of control without that action. And there is nothing to say that the bulk of the meat couldn't be sold after a kill designed for a wall mount. I don't have a problem with killing an animal for its skin for clothing, so long as the rest goes to food or is otherwise purposed. I believe that animals serve a limited resource role for humanity and always have, but like all resources, I am more torqued up in the negative by its waste than the fact that it is a resource. Hunting a species to extinction is abominable because that is the ultimate in wasteful, even if there is efficient use of the animal in every case. Domestication requires an additional layer of morality insofar as, even if the animal is to be killed for consumption of some form, it should be otherwise well cared for and treated humanely until such time as its end comes.
This, as a sentient predator, serves for me as a sufficient framework of morality when it comes to animal resource consumption (it is abridged a bit for the sake of brevity, just in the interest of understanding). Some will disagree.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Sometimes morality requires us to "be at odds" with what we are from a biological standpoint. What morality requires is often debatable and I am not gonna debate the moral issue of harming animals for food, etc., here, but I hope you at least agree that in most situations we should minimize the harm we do to sentient beings.
ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)I assure you that I am not trying to be argumentative here because you do raise an interesting point, and I want to address it.
The point is that this is not at odds with what we are from a biological standpoint. We may be predators but we are also sentient, which means that we are aware of ourselves and our actions. One may safely assume from that that at least on an individual level that there is a moral character placed upon how we predate, not that we predate. Natural conservancy is within our natures because we have the capability of seeing the real effects of our practices of predation.
Some like to suggest that our sentience should completely obscure and replace our predative natures, but why? Why is our role as a predator and our role as a sentient an either-or proposition? Seems that within a reasonable moral framework one can both aver the moral necessity of humane treatment of living animals while at the same time accepting animals as a resource.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)then I am not against it. I know that we cannot avoid inflicting suffering and death on others (by others I include humans, cows, dogs, and every other sentient creature), but I do think that for the sake of others we should strive to reduce that harm as much as we can. I do think that some people (I am not accusing you of this) tend to romanticize nature and predation and hunting as if everything natural is good. I have more of a "nature red in tooth and claw" perspective than a "great circle of life" perspective.
ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)I don't think that suffering should be inflicted on any living creature in any way that can be reasonably avoided.
I don't know how egregiously common this romanticizing of nature and predation and hunting is either. Is it wrong for someone to enjoy hunting? I don't think so, so long as we are mindful of what we've already established as agreed, that suffering should be avoided where possible, and it is in the effort of conservancy or sustenance (even if trophy hunting is used as a means to conservancy and waste of the animal is avoided). It has a way of connecting us back with our instinctual natures in a very real way, re-enacting what our species once did as a matter of survival.
I too see nature as "red in tooth and claw" and I am mystified that some people see something more genteel, implying or directly stating that our predatory natures are somehow unusually excessive when compared against the natural world, and thus pathological. All one has to do to see the savagery of the natural world is watch a big cat run down a gazelle on the Serengeti to see just how "tooth and claw" it really is, especially among the "higher" animals. But we evolved through this process just as every other predatory animal, different only in the respect that we can establish a moral framework for it and communicate that idea to others of our species.
Kali
(55,007 posts)
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)then you're ok with that correct? That is what your logic is saying.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)We spent more time in the cabin than we did hunting. We installed a new propane range to go with the new kitchen cupboards we installed in October. My father and 5 of his 7 grandsons were there as well. My almost 82 year old father shot two deer in 4 minutes. He was excited and we were excited for him. One of my brothers and I make venison sausage. Deer hunting is a time of family comradery. I don't really expect you to understand.
One of my brothers had a young buck hang around his stand long enough for him to get a video of the deer dancing around his deer stand. The young deer came back the next day as well. The last couple days of deer season, I watched a young fork buck feed and wander around. If it had been the first day, that deer would have become sausage. Since it was the last day, we'll see how big he is next year, if he stays on our property.
I live in Minnesota where we have 500,000 deer hunters. Wisconsin has about 700,000 deer hunters. Both states have long traditions of deer hunting. Do you really believe all of those deer hunters are sick?
I forgot to ask you if you are a vegetarian?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Me too. That someone receives entertainment from killing seems both rather self-absorbed and somewhat lacking in a fundamental empathy for life, regardless of how it may be rationalized it otherwise.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Mostly in cities, where there are no hunters or predators. Elsewhere their populations are managed largely though hunting. Hunting pays for the upkeep on many state parks and wildlife management areas. Without the fees raised by selling licenses, those places could not stay open, especially in these days of constant budget cuts.
How is hunting any worse than fishing?
I take issue with the touchy-feely nonsense posted in this thread about hunting.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)sounds a lot worse.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 25, 2013, 06:10 PM - Edit history (1)
why so many seem to have a disdain for hunting (do those folks feel the same about fishing? I have caught and cooked many a fish in my day).
Haters gonna hate.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)By the way, the "Haters gonna hate" is an incredibly dumb statement.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)and enjoy the taste of meat not loaded up with chemicals and steriods.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Lucky for us humans we are on the top of the food chain, huh.
Bye bye.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)Pointless response of the year award candidate.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Trust me.
hunter
(38,311 posts)(The gentleman was a comedian. I hope he wouldn't mind....
)
Iggo
(47,549 posts)
JimboBillyBubbaBob
(1,389 posts)My first reaction was, "Did the deer shoot back?" Now that would have been funny.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)that he would have had a sudden death, possibly related to cardiovascular disease associated with morbid obesity?
Sad, still, but duh, if you don't take care of yourself, this is one of the risks.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)fed his carcass to their pet wolf, while laughing uproariously, or something.
I don't think deer hunting is a good source for humor, myself. I have an in-law who gets a deer every year and uses it to feed his family. He's of NA heritage, recognizes he's taking a life, is very respectful of the process, and approaches it with the seriousness it merits.
He also has a good sense of humor and likes to party---but not when he's hunting.
I hope his family finds peace. It sucks when a family member is taken. And fifty is WAY TOO YOUNG to go.
Rex
(65,616 posts)50 seems kinda young to die from natural causes, but okay whatever.
rudolph the red
(666 posts)he did not look like a person that lived a very healthy lifestyle.
Rex
(65,616 posts)
I'm not one to judge, but he does look a little under the weather in this picture.
Laffy Kat
(16,377 posts)It makes sense, actually. Hunters tend to get worked up while they hunt: blood pressure goes up, heart beats faster. If you're predisposed... Fifty is mighty young, though.
Iggo
(47,549 posts)Laffy Kat
(16,377 posts)
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)My baby brother's ex-father in law. A gracious gentleman and one of the few genuinely happy people I've met. He hunted every year and cleaned his own kills. They were in a remote area and EMS took over 30 min. to reach them. His son, who lacks the basics on massive cardiac infarction, is beating himself up about not saving his father. Today my friend and ex sister in law has to tell her 2 youngest that grandpa died.
To those who pass judgments on hunters based on your misunderstandings of wild animals; I hope your family is spared similar circumstances.
Not Mr. Leggett
mnhtnbb
(31,384 posts)Sometimes the survival rate doesn't have anything to do with proximity of medical help, though.
We had a friend--an ER doc--who was working out in a hotel gym. Had a massive coronary.
The guy working out next to him was a surgeon. When our friend fell off the equipment,
the surgeon was doing CPR on him practically before he hit the floor. I mean, IMMEDIATE,
trained response. But the friend did not survive.
My condolences to your friend and family.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)It was a blockage which traveled to a cardiac blood vessel; I guess a significant portion of the heart suffered necrosis (tissue death) during the HA. If it was large enough, having this HA in the door of the ER may not have helped.
PeoViejo
(2,178 posts)...the Microbes get the last laugh.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)The deer that killed the joys of deer hunting comedian.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)a buck come looking to get laid and u let em have from your hidehole. yeah that's hunting
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)dress like a bush or look for bucks. What he did do was fill our freezer.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)I never used doe pee, didn't wait in ambush, always wore an orange vest for safety from those idiot "Buck Fever" hunters, and would never take the shot unless I was absolutely sure of a clean shot.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts) Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 25, 2013, 06:58 PM - Edit history (1)
What a bunch of nonsense in this thread.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)BainsBane
(53,031 posts)I know of no one who hunts for deer who doesn't use the meat.
Welcome back, darkangel218!
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)Ted Nugent, despite his being a pants shitting, pedophile, RW chickenhawk, does eat what he hunts and what he doesn't eat, he donates to the food pantries and homeless shelters.
rudolph the red
(666 posts)just take their pictures and leave the carcass on the ground? Every hunter that I have ever known eats what they kill.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Its all for fun. Nothing to do with necessity. And if they kill a dear, do they have to pose with the dead carcass?? I mean, really?
Trophy hunting is disgusting.
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)that is repulsive, but this is not one of those cases.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)cyberswede
(26,117 posts)
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Hunting involves an animal that had a free life to that one bad moment.
The factory farmed meat you eat never feel a free moment.
So glad you feel better about eating enslaved meat.
You ever seen a chicken truck?
You ever seen a pig truck or a cow slaughter truck?
Have you ever heard a truck full of animals screaming?
Enjoy that plastic wrapped meat.
Good gawd you are an idiot.
Nearly NO animal in nature has a peaceful death.
That is just the way of things.
A swift slug to the heart is one of the kinder ways for them to die...truth be told.
You'd rather they starve? Or be slowly eaten alive by a pack of feral dogs or coyotes?
Turn off the Disney Channel and grow the fuck up.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)
ileus
(15,396 posts)Buck 500 yards this past Saturday.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)But most hunting occurs deep in the woods where those deer really aren't bothering anyone.
It's the ones living near highways and the suburbs that are an issue.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)took place adjacent to farmlands and freeways. You can often see deer stands back in the trees along I-94 at this time of year.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)A bad shot could lead to trouble.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Responsible hunting is rather easy to do on open farmland, and it's safer (in my opinion) because you have better clarity. I never went hunting--only made venison dinners.
Spirochete
(5,264 posts)Sounds like those occasional deer hunts might have been all the exercise he was getting. And only 50 years old.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)At least he went out doing what he liked.
Iggo
(47,549 posts)Boudica the Lyoness
(2,899 posts)God help the fuckers if I find them on our place.
Yes..I'm a vegetarian.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)game management plan is. By game management, I mean how do you propose control of animal populations, to limit starvation and disease. What's you plan ?
I don't "despise" vegetarians, in fact I feel sorry for them. However, I do find them to be the most anxious group of hypocrites to spew at the hunting community for no other reason than to chest thump, without any knowledge or capacity to discuss game management or the realities associated with.... game management.
"God help the fuckers if I find them on our place".......lol.....you tried a little too hard.
"God"...lol.........which one ?
chknltl
(10,558 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 25, 2013, 06:22 PM - Edit history (1)
Because bacon buffalo wings would create too many challenges!
Autumn
(45,057 posts)Nine
(1,741 posts)I don't believe karma (because of his hunting) had anything to do with it and I find such comments distasteful.
His weight may have had something to do with it but I also find such comments distasteful. I had a dear aunt who smoked and who died of lung cancer. She almost certainly contributed greatly to her own demise, but she was a good person and I'd be very upset at anyone suggesting she somehow deserved to die because she could not break her smoking addiction.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I'm referring to wildlife photography, of course.
If you have a gun, you can shoot animals in harsh light or in really nice light. They'll die either way. But if you're shooting with a camera, you need to have the exposure nailed, which means manual exposure in the case of a fast-moving animal (is that animal lighter or darker than 18% gray, and will it be moving into a different lighting environment?). Your focus needs to be tack-sharp. You will have needed to decide whether you're tracking the animal or hoping for a still shot. You need to stop down enough to get the best image your camera can give, but you also typically need to get as much light as possible through the aperture. And at long focal lengths, you need to decide whether or not your closed-down aperture is going to be enough to get the deer's eye and nose in focus. You need to decide whether or not you're going to use fill flash, and you need to be ready if you are. If you're hand-holding or tripod- or monopod-mounted, you need to know what your minimum shutter speed can be in order for you to get a good shot. You need to know your camera's low light ISO abilities (I can clean up ISO 3200. I'll take a newsworthy shot at ISO 6400, but it will never grace the pages of a wildlife magazine). On top of that, you also need to get lucky, or at least be ready when luck presents itself. Finally, you need to do all those other things I forgot to mention that other photographers will be iterating in reply to this post.
As to the OP and the discussion around it:
-I'm not going to get down on deer hunters, but I will issue a challenge. If you want to up your game, put the gun down and try a camera. It's a lot more challenging.
-I have no sympathy at all for those who hunt endangered animals. I'm on the animals' side.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)You can shoot deer. You can eat deer. I already indicated I don't care too much about that one way or another. But you're implying that "the hunter" (whether that's you personally, all the hunters you're speaking for, or whatever)--you're implying that "the hunter" is shooting deer for reasons of nutrition, and that's just not true. While it may be true that some hunters want to source food as locally as possible, and while it may be true that some hunters don't want to eat over-antibioticized store-purchased meat, the vast, VAST majority of hunters have had a Big Mac or Whopper or Taco Bell "food" item in the last 3 months. So you can climb down off of your high horse, because I don't believe your starting position. Hunting is primarily done for the thrill of the hunt, for the technical challenge. And that goes right back to my point. If you want to shoot deer with a gun, great--go have fun. If you want a real challenge, however, do your shooting with a camera. And then when you want a bigger challenge yet, start pointing the camera at birds. But talk of eating photographs, well, that's just a non-starter with me.
hollowdweller
(4,229 posts)Today is first day of the season. I could have killed a doe before I even got in the woods this morning, we have a herd of does living right around the house here, and one was right in my hayfield looking at me, but then I would be done and would have no reason to go out anymore and I took all week off work.
You can shoot a buck or doe first 3 days and then just bucks. I'll probably hunt bucks only this week because they are tougher to come across. That way I get so spend more time in my woods.
I hike in my woods all the time but really only hunting season do I really get a feel for what's going on there because you set for hours in one spot, so you notice stuff that you don't normally notice like cool fungi, where squirrels are living this year, unusually shaped trees etc.
Today I only saw our herd of deer passing thru when somebody drove an ATV along the ridge and ran them past me. I don't believe in ATV's and if you want to hunt my woods you gotta do it on foot.
Sad about the guy. Probably had an MI. Lots do in deer season. I think they would be healthier if they hiked to their hunting spot rather than rode on an atv.
I mainly like to hunt for the enjoyment of being in my woods and for the deer meat. However every other year I go vegetarian which is next year. We can't eat a whole deer in 2 months so if I dont' get one this fall it's no big deal.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)Well, according to some, here. 
Thank's for sharing your perspective.
Logical
(22,457 posts)NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)Got any ideas on what to do when the populations are overrun and begin starving, and disease runs wild ?
"Logical" ..... what's your plan since you are older and wiser than I ?
Logical
(22,457 posts)NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)There is more to it than "I don't like killing animals"....think logically. Without hunting, how would you manage the populations ?
or is "I don't like killing animals" all you have ? I don't think "Logical" means what you think it means.
Iggo
(47,549 posts)Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)I'm proud of the fact that I was taught at an early age to hunt, I'm proud that I can provide my family with good, wholesome, chemical free meat, I'm proud that I can bring down a deer/elk with one shot.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)Oh, that's right you hunters have killed all of them off too.
Kaleva
(36,294 posts)Odds are pretty good wolves and coyotes once roamed freely where you live. But you probably wouldn't want such animals in your neighborhood now.
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)But the snarky little twist tells me you don't know what you are talking about.
hunting, and the limits that are set are intended to create a balance, to say "oh that's right you hunters have killed them off too", tells me you have no clue. The number of predatory animal tags are a direct relation to the number of animals that an area will support, more prey animals = a boom in predatory populations, fewer predators = over populated prey animals and they starve and spread disease. The building of cities has forever upset the balance of nature, it is our responsibility to manage the situation we've created.
The same thing happens in forrest management, the idea being that controlled burns are an attempt to burn up fuel to try to prevent larger and larger fires that don't rejuvenate the forrest but instead decimate it for a generation. The encroachment of human populations into wild habitats demands that the populations be controlled to prevent disaster. Ignorance of this issue is not a solution. People are not going away, so try again without the childish response. How would you propose controlling the animal population ? Try and let go of the fact that I like to hunt, and will continue to do so, instead imagine that I am interested in what you consider an alternative to hunting to control animal populations ?
Please believe me, your self-righteous snark is wasted on me, I think it's sad that you can't even try to discuss a very real situation. After you finish looking down your nose at me, please realize you have done nothing to advance a solution.
Cheers.
Bucky
(53,998 posts)
The guy was my age. Not my size, but my age. RIP.Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Big game hunting is for ignorant aholes.
4 t 4
(2,407 posts)Powder and how the deer felt ??
malaise
(268,942 posts)Was that 'Deerwin's doing?
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)
MADem
(135,425 posts)
flvegan
(64,407 posts)Wow.
mnhtnbb
(31,384 posts)of this buck which discovered the newly filled bird feeder.
When I posted it to fb, my cousin suggested I learn to bow hunt and shoot deer on my property.
That does happen to be legal here on private property (from a 15 ft stand, but I'm not sure our deck
would qualify). Even though the deer have become a nuisance here, I can't imagine shooting one
who stops to look at me as this one did. Plus, I've never cared for venison.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)I couldn't ever kill an animal.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I don't think you need to look for anything more cosmic than that.
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)I've tried it. Wanted to like it. But alas, it doesn't do a lot for me. I feel for folks who have to hunt to get by, but at least it's going to good use, and culling the population.
And for full disclosure, I eat fish and some dairy products now and again but no beef, chicken, pork or deer.
pansypoo53219
(20,972 posts)ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,338 posts)... but it looks like I only kicked it.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)and then argues about the evils and virtues of hunting.
Every. year.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)and you get a trifecta of liberal derision and ignorant fools who do not understand what the word Karma actually means.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,325 posts)You take plump sedentary people, trudge them through the woods in a heavy coat and boots on a cold day, and I would guess it's almost as bad as shoveling snow.
That guy was a walking heart attack. Sad.
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)since he was the one with a gun and no deer shot him.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)Damn this was a long thread. Hello! I am way down here at the bottom!
