General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAs of 2011, 90% of Democrats believe in God (or a Higher Spirit): Gallup.
I found this stat looking for info to reply to a post in another thread, and it was such a huge majority that I thought it would make a good point of discussion. Seems America does believe.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/Americans-Continue-Believe-God.aspx
on edit: link to other thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024098449
lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)Journeyman
(15,031 posts)LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)defacto7
(13,485 posts)An ignostic would probably say, "I don't understand the question. Believe in God? Please define God". At that point, the poll would be defused.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Some of the questions they have been asking for decades are useful, because they have been at it for a long time and you can make comparisons. This one is not particularly useful because it presents a dichotomy and forces the person to choose without a not sure option.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,312 posts)And they also ask other questions that give other alternatives, as it says on that page. Here's what they asked to get the figures in the OP:
Yes
No
No opinion
22. (Asked of a half sample) Do you believe in God or a universal spirit?
Yes
No
No opinion
http://www.gallup.com/poll/File/147890/Belief_in_God_110603%20.pdf
'No opinion' hasn't got more than 2% in 12 surveys.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Among believers I suspect the unequivocal belief in a higher power is quite low. Among non-believers I suspect the unequivocal belief that a higher power doesn't exist is also quite low.
So basically all the question determines is what percentage of the population are positive atheists, which is a minority position even among atheists. As someone else pointed out, agnostics have no answer to this question. No opinion is not the same thing as not sure.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,312 posts)Which question do you think only determines 'positive atheists'? I think your analysis of the English language is not up to scratch on this occasion. An agnostic can very easily answer 'no opinion' to this; I would say that would be the most accurate thing for they to express their opinion with.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Assuming an agnostic does have an opinion, what is the right answer?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,312 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)So you have selected the most wrong response or the least right depending on if you are a glass half full or half empty sort.
Furthermore I know of no other data set that suggests positive atheists outnumber agnostics by a factor of 7 to 1. Perhaps you can help here.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,312 posts)Therefore they should answer 'no opinion'. That you call that 'having an opinion' is your problem, not mine.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Last edited Wed Nov 27, 2013, 12:20 PM - Edit history (1)
Agnostics do have an opinion on on whether a god or universal spirit exists. Some have very strong opinions on the subject. The mere act of identifying as an agnostic means you may have an opinion on the subject. Qualifying this with an agnostic who has an opinion narrows that down. No definition of agnosticism I have ever seen suggests all agnostics "do(es) not have an opinion on whether a god or universal spirit exists". Indifference to the existence of god is apatheism or to a lesser degree pragmatic agnosticism which is a subset of agnosticism. I am well aware of what all these things mean. I asked you specifically how would an agnostic who had an opinion would answer this question. I did not ask you how an apatheist would answer this question. I am being precise with the English language. Damn precise even. So being disengenuous or subliteracy explains your logical disconnect. Neither of which is my problem.
Furthermore you never even attempted to deal with the question that if your version of literacy were correct, why does the data set suggest that positive atheists outnumber agnostics by 7 to 1 when other data sets suggest the reverse relationship?
Just sayin'
lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)valerief
(53,235 posts)gcomeau
(5,764 posts)...how an accountant would answer this.
With whatever their answer was. Which has nothing to do with whether they're agnostic. (Or an accountant)
lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)gcomeau
(5,764 posts)...is not a valid response to a yes/no question.
lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)gcomeau
(5,764 posts)But "Do you believe in God" IS a yes/no question. About as clear cut a yes/no question as you can find anywhere.
You either do... or you don't. Period. No third option. Binary solution set. That belief either resides in your noggin... or it does not.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)when it shouldn't be. Do I believe in God? Well I don't really believe or disbelieve, I have no idea what happens after we die or if there was a supernatural event before the Big Bang or if there are any supernatural events still occurring. The latter I would view as unlikely though.
Belief in God (or Gods, or other supernatural/spiritual ideas) is not the same to me as saying "I believe the stock market will hit 20,000 at some point in the next 30 years" and "I do not believe the stock market will be exactly 1,000 on January 1, 2027". Such "beliefs" regarding the stock market or other data with a scientific or mathematical basis makes sense to me. Belief in God... or disbelief in God is kind of silly because it's discussing something we are just too stupid to understand in any meaningful way.
So would my answer be yes, no, or no opinion? :p
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Do I believe in God? Well I don't really believe
Then the answer's no. Wasn't that easy?
...or disbelieve,
Nobody asked if you "disbelieved". You get that right?
Response to gcomeau (Reply #115)
lostincalifornia This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to gcomeau (Reply #107)
lostincalifornia This message was self-deleted by its author.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)The fact that it diverges significantly from other surveys should be telling you something.
It forces people to choose between two absolutes when many are very much in between. If you set your google to agnosticism you'll find a wealth of information you're missing.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)It forces people to choose between two absolutes when many are very much in between.
And just what exactly would constitute "In between" having or not having a belief?
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Give a man a fish...
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)And avoiding answering it yourself sends a certain message.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)"And just what exactly would constitute "In between" having or not having a belief?"
ag·nos·ti·cism
[ag-nos-tuh-siz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1. the doctrine or belief of an agnostic.
2. an intellectual doctrine or attitude affirming the uncertainty of all claims to ultimate knowledge.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agnosticism
ag·nos·tic
noun \ag-ˈnäs-tik, əg-\
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : [div style="display:inline; background-color:#FFFF66;"]one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
These are the most obvious and popular references which you could have derived from a 5 second google search (assuming a moderately fast internet connection). If you require further reading, you can go...
Here:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/#3
or here:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01215c.htm
or here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
or here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God#Conclusions
or here:
http://www.google.com/search?q=agnosticism
Hope this helps.
Cheers!
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)This time contemplate the difference between not having a belief and having a disbelief. You have not answered my question, you have answered a different one.
Now if you would care to answer the question I actually asked you, I'll wait...
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)I answered your question twice. The 2nd time I provided numerous references, complete with numerous cites and even went to the trouble to highlight text that was directly relevant to the question. So I'm satisfied I answered your question and I'm pretty sure any reasonable person would agree. Furthermore several people upthread provided the exact same answer and nobody but you seems to think there is some other option here. If you simply want to pretend I didn't answer it, go right ahead. It only reflects on your own credibility. I have no idea what game you are trying to play, but whatever it is I'm opting out at this point.
Cheers!
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)There's no such state. That's the answer.
And as I pointed out to you you didn't understand the question and answered the wrong one. What's mind blowing is you still apparently don't get that even after having it spelled out for you.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)Coyotl
(15,262 posts)Here's the other thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024098449
Why It's Easier for Republicans to Believe in God Than Evolution
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Sorry, should have included a link to the other thread, will edit OP.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)Demographics of atheism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism
Scientific assessment of the extent of "atheism" in various populations is beset with a number of problems. First in most of the world outside of East Asia the vast majority of the populations are believers in either a monotheistic or polytheistic system, typically being cited as 90% or more in countries like the United States or India. Consequently questions to assess non belief often take the form of any negation of the prevailing belief rather than an assertion of positive atheism and these will then be accounted, somewhat inaccurately, to rising "atheism".[3][4][5]
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Coyotl
(15,262 posts)Statistical problems
Statistics on atheism are often difficult to represent accurately for a variety of reasons. Atheism is a position compatible with other forms of identity. Some atheists also consider themselves Agnostic, Buddhist, Hindu, Jains, Taoist, or hold other related philosophical beliefs. Some, like Secular Jews and Shintoists, may indulge in some religious activities as a way of connecting with their culture, all the while being atheist. Therefore, given limited poll options, some may use other terms to describe their identity. Some politically motivated organizations that report or gather population statistics may, intentionally or unintentionally, misrepresent atheists. Survey designs may bias results due to the nature of elements such as the wording of questions and the available response options. Also, many atheists, particularly former Catholics and former Mormons, are still counted as Christians in church rosters, although surveys generally ask samples of the population and do not look in church rosters. Other Christians believe that "once a person is [truly] saved, that person is always saved", a doctrine known as eternal security.[11] Statistics are generally collected on the assumption that religion is a categorical variable. Instruments have been designed to measure attitudes toward religion, including one that was used by L. L. Thurstone. This may be a particularly important consideration among people who have neutral attitudes, as it is more likely that prevailing social norms will influence the responses of such people on survey questions that effectively force respondents to categorize themselves either as belonging to a particular religion or belonging to no religion. A negative perception of atheists and pressure from family and peers may also cause some atheists to disassociate themselves from atheism. Misunderstanding of the term may also be a reason some label themselves differently.
For example, a Canadian poll released September 12, 2011 sampled 1,129 Canadian adults and came up with some interesting unrelated data on the numbers of declared atheists.[12] These numbers conflicted with the latest Canadian census data that pre-supposed that a religious affiliation predisposed a belief in a deity and was based on a poorly worded question. A quote from the study:
The data also revealed some interesting facts about Canadians beliefs:
A majority (53%) of Canadians believe in God. What is of particular interest is that 28% of Protestants, 33% of Catholics, and 23% of those who attend weekly religious services do not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism
muriel_volestrangler
(101,312 posts)Yes, Americans have a significantly higher belief in God than comparable countries. From 2004:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/13990/britons-lack-american-cousins-piety.aspx
And from that, we see that, in 2004 (when there was a slightly higher Canadian belief in God found - 64%), only 16% of them said they attended services weekly. So 23% of them is about 4% of the population.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)defacto7
(13,485 posts)It's true. Mostly doesn't happen, but dems are more inclusive than the GOP.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)2banon
(7,321 posts)asses trying to prove how close to god they are.
I'm just curious as to why the obsession over this bs from various quarters. the perpetual myth as if it should have any fucking bearing on politics, particularly when it's USED as a device to further divide- by the biggest and most corrupt people of all, those that wear the Big C along with the flag as if to make themselves better than thou.
I'm so sick of this shit, i want to puke every time someone waves the flag and cite biblical horseshit especially in political discussions.
CAG
(1,820 posts)Did you puke??
CAG
(1,820 posts)2banon
(7,321 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)eqfan592
(5,963 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I respect an understand to some extent how you feel about this.
2banon
(7,321 posts)The Hypocrisy is beyond the pale, one would think the tactic would be beyond useless at this point in our history. So, someone pulls a bs poll suggesting that 90% of the people around me are god fearing christians, even though that's NOT what poll even says, yet it will (like so many other misleading polls) be used in this really lame game of political tomfoolery.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)2banon
(7,321 posts)I can tell you that the majority of the population anywhere I've lived in this country for the past 63 years doesn't attend church services on Sunday mornings.. just based on personal observation. the majority of the population seem to be attending their service at shopping malls. The worst day of the week to try to take a drive anywhere is on a Sunday.. These folks aren't in churches. They're on the road and in the malls. All that to say, sure anyone can say they "believe" in god. but what does that really mean anyway? Are they devout christians. naaaahhh..
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)at least a dozen Christian churches very near my residence. There was at least a dozen Christian churches near my last residence as well. I have to drive for 45 minutes to reach a Buddhist temple.
maxsolomon
(33,337 posts)As they are exempt from taxation, they often sit vastly underused. The PNW is the least churched region of the country - in the midwest, there'd be 2 dozen.
In Seattle, the multiple historic churches in the U District and Capitol Hill are not used for worship as much as they are for community functions - lectures, concerts, even meetings of other religions (Vipassana meditation), and for homeless outreach.
Congregations are shrinking and aging quickly. I work with a 40 year old guy who is the youngest person at his church.
As Thomas Jefferson's bible showed, you can absorb the philosophy of Jesus without worshipping him as the Messiah.
Response to maxsolomon (Reply #111)
2banon This message was self-deleted by its author.
2banon
(7,321 posts)I think one of things that eats at me, is jumping to conclusions/assumptions as to the meaning of the answers "yes I believe in God" to the ambiguous (or less than direct) question(s) laid out in the OP.
It actually portends we all should take specific and significant meaning from this, and that our nations politics should cater to highly flawed conclusions.
I mean apart from self avowed Atheists and Agnostics, who doesn't believe in a higher force/spirit, most often referred to as God and all the given variants?
The only point in "polling" this question is to continue the highly corrupted political machinations (that is to say lame but incredibly profitable gamesmanship) for status quo outcomes.
i.m.h.o.
maxsolomon
(33,337 posts)If Obama did anything remotely similar, he'd be drawn and quartered in the streets of DC.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Many painted him as an atheist (which he may have been). I've seen the ACTUAL Jefferson Bible. There's also an exhibit at Monticello that shows how he made it. Basically took out a knife and cut out all the hocus pocus. Neat stuff.
2banon
(7,321 posts)RKP5637
(67,108 posts)can't rip off the veil and see the bullshit for what it is ... rather, they succumb to their programmed firmware, longing for belief in something better than the crap many endure in life ... and others want to control others ... religion often provides that leverage ... and for some great $$$$$.
PS: Talking to some religious individuals is akin to talking to Tea Baggers to see what is going on ... one can't get past the hard coded reflex patterns in their logic and thought processes.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)geomon666
(7,512 posts)A certain number of people will believe anything.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)It's the racists that need to be constantly attacked and kept out.
By any means necessery.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)http://www.newsmax.com/newswidget/cnn-poll-obama-honest/2013/11/25/id/538496?promo_code=12289-1&utm_source=12289Raw_Story&utm_medium=nmwidget&utm_campaign=widgetphase1
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/poll-obama-majority-dishonest/2013/11/25/id/538496
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cbs-poll-obamacare-repealed/2013/11/20/id/537683
http://www.newsmax.com/surveys/RateObama/Rate-Obama-on-His-Job-Performance/id/97/kw/default?promo_code=12289-1
It just goes on in perpetuity.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Come on, admit it, don't you love to disagree with polls that disagree with you?
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)I'll say that.
Only because I KNOW most people agree with ME!!!
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)2banon
(7,321 posts)I don't believe the assumptions and conclusions. Sorry. Gallup is full of shit most of the time, imo.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)what?
edit to add:
Why does it matter? I think it only matters to the believers anyway. What matters to atheists is freedom from religious control of our private lives and the freedom to have an opinion without prejudice. But the numbers?? That's for people who want to save people from something.
nyquil_man
(1,443 posts)bowens43
(16,064 posts)How can any rational being believe in invisible, magical, omnipotent sky fairies? We are no longer iron age goat herders and we need to stop acting like we are......
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)It is as if (90%?) of humans in the USA are incapable of thinking rationally?? No wonder we are so screwed up politically.
Is a solution to our political problems to be found in getting people to examine their fundamental false assumptions?
meaculpa2011
(918 posts)Try again.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)defacto7
(13,485 posts)thinking about your comment. I asked myself, "how can I show appreciation for this person's comment without sounding like a cagey atheist?" Anyway, if nothing else atheists have a nose for BS, I guess it's in our nature. Your answer to the question, "why do you believe in God?" is the only correct answer a believer can offer. If you were to say you saw god in the sky... I would call delusion. If you said I believe because science shows or doesn't show.... I'd call error in facts. If you had said you believe because the bible says so... I call error of ignorance. But you gave the only answer that does not destroy the concept of faith as stated in Christian tenets. Most answers undermine the Christian concept of faith from its foundation. You left it intact. Therefore I see a logical reason for you to believe in God. It does not include me or anyone else. It does not nullify faith be seeing, hearing or touching God, and it does not demand others to believe your experience. It just is what it is. It's simple.
Of course that is not my experience and I don't have that perception or have a need for it but your belief as stated is the only reasonably logical answer to the question a Christian can give considering the prerequisites of faith.
My atheist 2 cents.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)LOL
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Believing that their little planet among billions of galaxies and planets at this particular 2,000 year timespan out of multibillions is the focus of the magical omnipotent sky fairy and his son (for Xtians) and, also, that they will live forever just because they are so incredibly fantastic and loved by the invisible fairy and perhaps his son makes them feel special. It's the human ego -- which probably evolved as a survival mechanism.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)("invisible, magical, omnipotent sky fairies" . I'm an atheist/agnostic myself but I don't feel the need to compare all believers to "Iron Age goat herders."
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)I kid, I kid.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)organized religion. I haven't even been terribly excited about the new Pope - I don't think of him as an evil man the way I did Benedict, but I also don't agree with those who seem to think he's the greatest thing since unleavened bread.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)The same people thought the sun rotated around the earth and included women and children in property laws. Now perhaps the belief for those things is waning, but we still have to have "debate" on whether the earth is 6,000 yrs old or not. There is harm in using a 2,000 yr old relic as a moral compass even to those who don't participate.
Whether or not the comparison is a pejorative is debatable, but until religionists start to stand up in significant numbers and call bullshit when those who speak for them demonize atheists I am not highly motivated to have that debate.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)If keeping church and state separate necessitates the waning of religious belief - which has already been happening in this country anyway - then so be it, I suppose.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)Way past time.
Or at the very least....keep that invisible, magical, omnipotent sky fairies thinking to oneself and stop trying to rule/ruin others' lives with it.
Is that too much to ask?
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)more people are "coming out" and admitting that this is nonsense.
CAG
(1,820 posts)twiddling their thumbs with nothing to do and then, **BOOM**, their day is made by yet another chance to ridicule us believers on how stupid we are.
djean111
(14,255 posts)I don't ridicule a belief in religion, but I do find it hilarious that polls about it are thought to mean anything at all - belief does not mean reality, either for religion or atheism.
Oh, well, come to think of it, polls can show politicians who to pander to. There's that.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)much less Americans, when you're on DU. Here you could think most Dems are agnostics or atheists.
Why does it matter? Because gratuitous insults to people of faith do nothing to encourage them to listen to your arguments.
djean111
(14,255 posts)I don't know why either camp argues. I just do not want religion to affect my life. I avoid it as much as possible, I see no need to argue about it.
In my ideal world, I would not even be aware of anyone else's belief or non-belief, much less need to make allowances for it.
An OP fairly crowing that "90%" of Americans believe in some sort of thing" just seems to me to be saying "Look! All these people can't be wrong! Come into the light!"
For me, not even if it was a trillion people to just little old me.
Anyway, yes, there is a political reality that must needs be catered to. One of the hundreds of reasons I could never be a politician. I wish religion could be rooted out of politics, but alas and alack.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)Some of the people who post bigoted comments about people of faith don't realize they're doing nothing to advance their arguments.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)I have exactly the opposite perspective. Here I would think most Dems are believers. Why does it matter? Because insults toward non-believers do nothing to encourage them to listen to believer's arguments.
Now that makes me think very carefully about my position since both perspectives are so reversed. Does it make you consider the relevance of your opinion or not?
djean111
(14,255 posts)their thumbs, and then read that atheists should not make disparaging remarks about theists - expecting logic is kind of pointless.
And as a non-believer, I cannot even imagine what a believer's "arguments" would consist of, at this point.
They have no proof, just belief. Not logical to believe something just because a lot of other people believe it, without concrete proof.
Those arguments are better known as proselytizing or preaching. No matter how well-meant - pointless. And have the opposite effect when, for instance, I am told I cannot possibly be moral or know right from wrong unless instructed to by religion. Right.
I confess I don't care if other dems are believers or not - except, I guess, if catering to their belief is necessary to get out their vote. Just keep religious beliefs out of the legal process. Yeah, dream on, djean!
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)...in the eyes of some believers, I find it difficult to work up much sympathy for the ruffled feathers of some believers.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)commands them to rejoice and be exceedingly glad when that happens. He says nothing about whining about the terrible nonbelievers. Nothing about demanding respect for believers, he simply says 'they will ridicule you and you should be glad when they do'.
Those of you who are not rejoicing but instead kvetching do not seem to have gotten that Gospel Memo.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Kurska
(5,739 posts)Seems like a bad poll, considering every other one I've seen puts it closer to around 80% believing in god.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)the Universal Spirit of facts and humankind. I guess that puts me in the 92%.
Take that you poll, you!
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Strange world, but the Catholic Church has a very different leader than they did just a short time ago, and as far as I can tell, it's all to the good.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)I guess for people who need to finally have a leader they can like, it's good to have one that's not as bad as the others. But "not as bad as the rest" just doesn't quite make it for me.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)The Catholic church seems to change at a fairly glacial pace. But we've gone from the right wing Hitler Youth pope to a leftist, populist pope very rapidly, and the new guy didn't take much of a honeymoon period before he began speaking out. Again, I'm an agnostic, and I believe the Catholic Church has a long way to go...I'll never be in full agreement with them, or they'd cease to be a church (see agnostic, above). But it seems to me that a lot has started to change in a short amount of time, and for the better. Thanks.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)eqfan592
(5,963 posts)Tikki
(14,557 posts)Tikki
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I find that hard to believe.
CAG
(1,820 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)IDemo
(16,926 posts)was one of the influences on me at around the age of 11
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)It's the same sort of thing that makes the Bible "the most-read book." You're going to tell a stranger on the phone that you breathlessly heave over Fifty Shades? No, you're a good person with good taste and so you read the bible like a good person with good taste! Right? Right!
quaker bill
(8,224 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)bhikkhu
(10,715 posts)everybody wants to get along, and to say you don't believe in god is exactly like marching into a kindergarten and saying Santa is fake. If everybody thinks everybody believes in god, then they say "yes" when someone asks if they believe in god.
I have no use for belief myself, but I remember my grandma's funeral, all the pomp and ceremony and religious solemnity, all the assurances of the afterlife. It does nothing for me, but I'd still be uncomfortable saying to my family that I didn't believe, having seen the whole group demonstration of belief. Perhaps everyone else there was thinking the same thing...
social pressure might exist if you were asked in public standing among a group of strangers. Little of that exists with a telephone poll.
The bigger question is the nature of the "god" they believe in. I expect that varies a lot.
bhikkhu
(10,715 posts)you don't have to work it out, make a decision, or put any effort into it at all. For most people I think the answer to the question has about as much depth of meaning as "what's your favorite color". In a society where all the easy paths are to believe like everyone else, to go with the flow, and you don't even have to ever go to church or spend time learning a single thing, its no wonder that 90% "believe" - its safe, easy, and it really doesn't matter.
Those 10% that don't believe are probably divided between people who've been conned by some church or other, and those who have really thought it through and determined, based on evidence (or the lack of evidence), that there is no god. That's a tough decision with a lot more weight behind it.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)Where is the Dueling statistics smiley when you need it...?
demosincebirth
(12,536 posts)spanone
(135,831 posts)invalidates the poll. imho
Deep13
(39,154 posts)That doesn't even have to be anything supernatural, just people agreeing to get along.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)It's the higher power thing that is believed to provide individuals strength to deal with their addictions and compulsions.
Makes sense to me all the way around.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)Even though they deny it, a "higher power" that has the ability to save someone from from a self-destructive live is the Christian God. I know they say it can be anything, but anything can't restore one to sanity. That s specifically Christian redemption.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)something that you can lean on, but really can't, because it's not really there, but that the idea of it being there is as good as it being there.
There.
I think that there is perfectly clear.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)Because even the must depressed, self-loathing addicts tend to be frighteningly self-absorbed. All that "God" stuff in AA and NA seems mostly just a way of saying, "There are more important things in the universe than you, asshole."
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)I can read. And I've read various applications of the principle which all seem to deal with spiritual entities.
I suspect anything that implies "you are an asshole" might meet certain Abrahamic sects views of humanity. But that sort of low self-worth may also drive people to addictive behaviors that squelch the abusive voice of culture.
At any rate, I wasn't around a century ago when 12-step was being invented and don't know its history or how such interpretation has changed since that origin.
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defacto7
(13,485 posts)Looks like your doing it right. Carry on.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)they believe in "a" God, not "God".
Did anyone ask any of that 90% if they believe in more than one?
There is by no means universal agreement on what the word "God" actually represents, even less so on what the hell a "universal spirit" is supposed to actually mean.
However, apparently 90% of people state they believe in one of several vague and ill-defined terms. Which proves something, I guess.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)The only one that continually manifests himself.
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Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Imagine how awesome Democrats could be if 10% of them believed in God.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)And he especially wants people NOT to believe in him. It makes him mad to be believed in. Or it would, if he existed.
He just wants to be left alone to read the damn non-existent newspaper that his non-existent dog brought him, wearing his non-existent robe and his non-existent slippers in non-existent peace.
GeorgeGist
(25,321 posts)Mother Nature?
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)fairyland version ...
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)I hear a lot of angry voices coming from the Big Tent this morning.
Maybe we should ban Christian Beliefs from the Party. Makes us look too republican or something.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)I don't think banning Christian beliefs will be effective, know what I mean?
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)in your constant crusade to expose me as a republican who votes for Democrats in statewide and national elections. That's the best it can ever get for you you know, no matter how hard you try, or how many people you whisper to: The best you'll ever do is expose me as a republican who votes for Democrats... and good fucking luck with that.
You could, with maximum fanfare, local news coverage, interviews with my neighbors, family, and lifelong friends hold up for the cameras ballots I have cast in the past with evidence of my votes - which in statewide and national elections have only ever been for Democrats, and scream "but... but... but... He's a republican! I know it!"
In the end, you'd simply look like the ass you are. You go on with your bad self though... go on looking like an ass, blind to the fact that your definition of Democrat isn't the only one, and that the bottom line is... what happens in the fucking voting booth is what defines "Democrat", and what you do is what defines divisive.
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)a song that they sing when they take to the sea,
a song that they sing of their home in the sky, maybe you can believe it if it helps you to sleep,
but singing works just fine for me.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)But specific beliefs like "Jesus is God" or "Zeus is the king of the gods" make me wince.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Vattel
(9,289 posts)TBF
(32,058 posts)into standardized testing central with no room for critical thinking.
Historically people have turned to the concept of "Gods" when they don't understand things ... and there is definitely an anti-science movement in this country.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)It is only the actions of another which indicate what that person is like, who they are. Faith is invisible, action is visible, so that which is acted upon is defined but that which is just 'believed' is moot to any conversation.
How many of us have heard others promise to love their new spouse for eternity and then divorce within a year? Did they 'believe' they'd remain married? Does it matter? They say 'God has joined and no man can cast asunder' then they call an attorney to negotiate the casting asunder. Do they believe in that God? Maybe, but the actions say otherwise.
get the red out
(13,466 posts)Doubt it. But I can only hope.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)Seriously though, the "God" definition can be so broad that the number is closer to 99%.
smackd
(216 posts)I'm a believer and I vote Democratic.
There should be more us.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Amazing what you can do with statistics, if you're kinky enough.
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)increase though. Non-theists are coming out in a big way.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Quixote1818
(28,930 posts)Most people may believe in something but their connection to the Bible is lukewarm.
AnnieBW
(10,426 posts)I'm a polytheist. I believe in many Gods and Goddesses. So, whenever someone asks me if i believe in "God", I generally ask them, "which one?"
Sheri
(310 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)Regardless of what "90%" of anything might "believe."
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.
-Richard Dawkins
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)But there's no direct reference to the trinity in the bible and several passages that contradict it. It was a construct of the early Christian church that didn't appear until centuries later. Not all Christians believe in the trinity, and for them it is one, but for the others it seems somewhat ambiguous at best.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)One God with three natures. It is hard to explain but all Trinitarian Churches are very clear we d not believe in Three Gods.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 30, 2013, 11:01 PM - Edit history (1)
And I'm not convinced it's that clear even with most as you have several biblical passages where Jesus is evidently talking to himself. Then if you want to talk of historical Christian sects there were many who believed in 3, but were condemned for heresy or banished into obscurity.
But you are very correct in that it is hard to explain.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)As I and you said it is odd and confusing at times.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)The simplest explanation is attempts by the early church to deify Christ. No support for Trinitarianism exists before the first council of Nicaea. They even inserted text into John 5 : 7 (which is a sin), to support the idea.
KJV:
Greek texts prior to the 4th century prove this was a heretical editing of the scriptures. No other support for Trinitarian doctrine exists in the bible in anything other than the most remote abstract terms.
I realize this is something that is probably not taught in Sunday school. There's a good reason the bible was kept under lock and key for centuries.
So I still assert that most Christians believe in 3 gods, whether or not they realize it.
Just sayin'