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Chomsky on Porn (Original Post) BainsBane Nov 2013 OP
I've heard of being asked to take a bite out of crime, but this is ridiculous. R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2013 #1
Yay. Another porn thread pintobean Nov 2013 #2
Did you watch the video? BainsBane Nov 2013 #3
Did you give Sea any credit? pintobean Nov 2013 #5
yes actually BainsBane Nov 2013 #7
Not here, you didn't. pintobean Nov 2013 #8
She told me to tell you not to worry BainsBane Nov 2013 #16
I don't know wtf you're talking about. pintobean Nov 2013 #19
So you don't hate me BainsBane Nov 2013 #30
Is this projection, fantasy land or what? pintobean Nov 2013 #64
Quagmire discovers internet porn Katashi_itto Nov 2013 #52
No kidding n/t. ogradda Nov 2013 #109
I've heard that it can be addicting. pintobean Nov 2013 #110
Another heteronormative discussion on the subject. nt stevenleser Nov 2013 #4
insert different pronoun, the content doesn't change BainsBane Nov 2013 #6
Um no. In the service, I worked with several lesbians who loved Hustler. Katashi_itto Nov 2013 #26
Some may buy it BainsBane Nov 2013 #32
Primary maybe, but still it's no longer solely for the hetro male. Katashi_itto Nov 2013 #34
Because the most easily available sexual images xulamaude Nov 2013 #45
Still trying to make this, "the horrible male thing" eh? Katashi_itto Nov 2013 #49
Just stating an observation xulamaude Nov 2013 #63
Agree Katashi_itto Nov 2013 #66
Putting LGBT porn into the mix completely destroys the rationale against porn that it objectifies stevenleser Nov 2013 #125
+1! Katashi_itto Nov 2013 #56
Chomsky agreed to an interview without checking out who it was? Is... TreasonousBastard Nov 2013 #9
translation: "Don't make me think about workers rights" BainsBane Nov 2013 #10
Well, I have heard some porn stars talk about... TreasonousBastard Nov 2013 #14
There are women I know xulamaude Nov 2013 #17
Romney talked about how the Chinese love working in those factories JI7 Nov 2013 #18
FWIW I chose not to include the :sarcasm: nt xulamaude Nov 2013 #31
yes, i got it JI7 Nov 2013 #33
Ha! That was my first impression xulamaude Nov 2013 #38
Indeed he did. Eerie isn't it? BainsBane Nov 2013 #40
So why don't porn performers have a union? nt rrneck Nov 2013 #74
Chomsky is notoriously out of touch with mainstream stuff. joshcryer Nov 2013 #84
Wait, he says he didn't know what "the Hustler" was ucrdem Nov 2013 #11
. . . BainsBane Nov 2013 #12
Chomsky's seal of approval on the cover of Hustler says a hell of a lot more about Chomsky ucrdem Nov 2013 #15
"seal of approval" BainsBane Nov 2013 #24
that poster really had to twist around to land on feet with that. calling chomsky a liar, wow. nt seabeyond Nov 2013 #25
See for yourself: ucrdem Nov 2013 #43
no. you dismissed what the man said to flat out call him a liar. nt seabeyond Nov 2013 #55
No, I called him a hustler's hustler. You called him a liar. ucrdem Nov 2013 #60
when you ignore what he says about not knowing hustler, hence the error, that would be calling the seabeyond Nov 2013 #68
I didn't ignore it. That's what this subthread is about. nt ucrdem Nov 2013 #69
ok. when you hear what he says and do not believe him, then you are saying he is a liar. fuck... lol seabeyond Nov 2013 #72
I'm not sure ignorance of culture makes one a hypocrite. joshcryer Nov 2013 #88
Could be. ucrdem Nov 2013 #92
Yeah, it's a cop-out. joshcryer Nov 2013 #95
"I never heard of the Hustler" aikoaiko Nov 2013 #13
I thought it wasn't about porn, but "rape porn" quinnox Nov 2013 #20
it is called education. chomsky is respected by liberals. it is others right to listen seabeyond Nov 2013 #21
Never said anything like they couldn't post it quinnox Nov 2013 #23
i didnt read that thread, so i do not know whether you state it accurately or not. i have issues seabeyond Nov 2013 #27
It seems that the subject of this OP xulamaude Nov 2013 #22
From the clip: xulamaude Nov 2013 #28
Hilarious, same people howling they weren't talking about limitations on freedom of speech Kurska Nov 2013 #48
are you saying that freedom of speech is demanding no one puts up chomsky seabeyond Nov 2013 #57
Yes clearly that is exactly what I am saying. Kurska Nov 2013 #67
"Yes clearly that is exactly what I am saying." thank you for owning it. nt seabeyond Nov 2013 #70
If you like, I can give you some pointers about sarcasm. NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #75
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? Kurska Nov 2013 #77
That is the poster's MO TroglodyteScholar Nov 2013 #86
What an outstandingly well written post! A HERETIC I AM Nov 2013 #119
Chomsky does not want to outlaw pornography. joshcryer Nov 2013 #99
I posted a comment you may have missed the other day relating to this. last1standing Nov 2013 #29
I had not seen that BainsBane Nov 2013 #78
Can't blame you there. It was tiring. last1standing Nov 2013 #118
I love how for hundreds of posts it was "all about rape porn, no one is trying to take porn away" Kurska Nov 2013 #35
The argument changes by the day. NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #41
Apparently we're supposed to be sickened that adults are consuming naughty films or books Kurska Nov 2013 #42
I went into Twin Peaks once. NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #50
i believe the poster should actually go to some of the sites and talk to participants loli phabay Nov 2013 #47
In the Military and in Project management we call it "Mission Creep" Katashi_itto Nov 2013 #59
Hey, watch it there. rrneck Nov 2013 #62
Noam is right. n/t duffyduff Nov 2013 #36
seems like this statement arbitrarily restricted his scope to the role of women in pornography 0rganism Nov 2013 #37
Oh goody, another person who pretends gay people don't exist when discussing this Kurska Nov 2013 #39
That's one possibility, that homosexuals never cross their mind MNBrewer Nov 2013 #51
Not only must it not cross their minds, but it also must be actively filtered out too. Kurska Nov 2013 #54
Exactly the response that I've encountered MNBrewer Nov 2013 #61
Crickets is the nicest response by them I've seen stevenleser Nov 2013 #126
Frankly, it is embarrassing they won't respond to the question. Kurska Nov 2013 #127
Chomsky, while it is not obvious, is referring to the capitalist porn industry. joshcryer Nov 2013 #90
Very well thought out post Kurska Nov 2013 #100
I think it is increasingly less exploitive. joshcryer Nov 2013 #105
You'd be exploiting him, because you're a guy and thus an abuser. lumberjack_jeff Nov 2013 #96
But, but, but... NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #44
How bout sex clothing in general, only thing worse than porn on film is real life porn. Kurska Nov 2013 #46
Didn't that work out really well in some other part of the world? NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #53
Yes I think I know where you are talking about, it is a shining bastion of women's rights. Kurska Nov 2013 #58
you really, really don't want to reopen THAT can of worms... idwiyo Nov 2013 #65
Oops...I said breasts in another reply. NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #71
That's The Politically Korrekt and The Only Aproved Way of adressing them. idwiyo Nov 2013 #79
My wife uses the "t-word" occasionally. NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #82
It's a VERY Series Question! On one hand those are her boobies and she can do as she wants. idwiyo Nov 2013 #98
Well, she claims to like it when I ogle them. NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #108
useless without pics. loli phabay Nov 2013 #112
+1 idwiyo Nov 2013 #115
No way. NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #116
You'll need to ask an expert, totally out of my depth. :( Am nudist AND watch porn. idwiyo Nov 2013 #113
"Am much, much worse than your wife..." NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #121
They don't like me... :( 'cause am wiked and un-repentant! idwiyo Nov 2013 #139
How dare you use the F word! stevenleser Nov 2013 #130
Am goin' to HeL... For real... 'Cause am brainwashed and wiked... idwiyo Nov 2013 #138
Don't like porn, don't watch it. NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #73
Santorum on porn LittleBlue Nov 2013 #76
Wow...you knocked that one out of the park. NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #80
Here's some other allies besides sweater vest man Major Nikon Nov 2013 #89
Well if Michele Bachman says it... NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #94
You doubled up on sweater vest man there, #14 Kurska Nov 2013 #101
Good catch Major Nikon Nov 2013 #104
You win this thread! idwiyo Nov 2013 #83
Do you mind if I swipe this for an OP, or would you perhaps like to post it? n/t Kurska Nov 2013 #85
Go ahead LittleBlue Nov 2013 #117
That explains a few people frothing at the mouth here... n/t backscatter712 Nov 2013 #87
I see what you did there! idwiyo Nov 2013 #102
Yes he does. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #132
Noam Chomsky: "I'm no expert on pornography. ... I don't think it should be outlawed." joshcryer Nov 2013 #81
I don't suggest anything BainsBane Nov 2013 #128
He is self-admittedly ignorant of popular culture. joshcryer Nov 2013 #134
Kick and Rec this one. Kingofalldems Nov 2013 #91
"Porn is like child abuse". lumberjack_jeff Nov 2013 #93
He doesn't want to outlaw porn though. joshcryer Nov 2013 #97
I think we'll get nowhere, either about equality or about making porn safe without acknowleding... lumberjack_jeff Nov 2013 #103
There are plenty of interviews in that vein. joshcryer Nov 2013 #111
What about the article though? HatTrick Nov 2013 #106
I don't know BainsBane Nov 2013 #107
"I'd never heard of Hustler" Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Nov 2013 #114
Thank you, Seabeyond. Eliminating the degradation of women is the goal. ancianita Nov 2013 #120
Not a big fan of Andrea Dworkin (helping pass a Canadian law-- eridani Nov 2013 #122
BainsBane, after you're successful in getting rid of porn, woolldog Nov 2013 #123
How is it you come to the conclusion that I "want to get rid of porn"? BainsBane Nov 2013 #129
well what exactly do you want to do with porn, be interesting to hear. loli phabay Nov 2013 #131
**Crickets** NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #137
I think Chomsky is half right on this issue. last1standing Nov 2013 #124
I don't care what he says about porn or anyone else. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #133
I'm a fan of Chomsky, but I found his comparison of women to little children here offensive. /nt Marr Nov 2013 #135
Women are children -things to be protected Bonobo Nov 2013 #136
I'd rather hear from an academic whose plumbing still works. CorrectOfCenter Nov 2013 #140

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
16. She told me to tell you not to worry
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 07:52 PM
Nov 2013

that sisters share.

I told her I was using it. What you fail to understand that this is about the issue. You see everything on this site as about who you like vs. who you hate. For Sea and me, it's about equal rights for women.

 

pintobean

(18,101 posts)
19. I don't know wtf you're talking about.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:03 PM
Nov 2013

I don't hate anyone and I find that accusation insulting. But, that's not unexpected from you.

As to giving Sea credit, it wasn't about her. That's just a common courtesy that's normally practiced by the decent people on this site.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
30. So you don't hate me
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:28 PM
Nov 2013

but you track everything I say on the site, send SOP alerts on my OPs, and post snarky comments in response to me--irrespective of the subject matter. If it's not hate, it's some odd way of expressing affection. I'm going with the former. The insinuation that I'm not "decent" confirms that. Anyway, I really don't care. How you feel about me is your problem.

 

pintobean

(18,101 posts)
64. Is this projection, fantasy land or what?
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:59 PM
Nov 2013

Is it so hard to believe that some people just don't hate? So, now I'm a hater and a liar. It looks like you try to make people hate you.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
6. insert different pronoun, the content doesn't change
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 07:32 PM
Nov 2013

Last edited Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:41 PM - Edit history (2)

And Hustler is a magazine for heterosexual men.

Edit: Actually the content and issues may change. I don't know all of the issues involved for men in homosexual porn, or homosexual men in porn of any kind. The issue of women's rights applies to women as well as men. I find it fascinating how the charge of heteronormative is used so often to refer to men only, as though no gay women exist.

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
26. Um no. In the service, I worked with several lesbians who loved Hustler.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:22 PM
Nov 2013

Hell, I liked Hustler when I was a kid and my taste was pretty questionable.

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
34. Primary maybe, but still it's no longer solely for the hetro male.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:33 PM
Nov 2013

Not quite your world-view.

Don't know why, but almost every Lez I ever knew in the service (don't get me wrong, wasn't that many, not like they were all over or anything) all loved that mag.

 

xulamaude

(847 posts)
45. Because the most easily available sexual images
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:42 PM
Nov 2013

of two women are in 'heterosexual' internet/magazines.

 

xulamaude

(847 posts)
63. Just stating an observation
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:59 PM
Nov 2013

I've made over my lifetime and having been in the company of many men and many lesbians (many of them military) for my entire life.

IOW I grew up on Hustler.

ETA - and I agree with Chomsky even though he was unaware of "The Hustler" and I was

ETA.2 - first time I was exposed to Hustler I was 9 years old

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
66. Agree
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:03 PM
Nov 2013

Also I thought I was responding to BB nm

On painkillers due to hip injury and I am a little out of it.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
125. Putting LGBT porn into the mix completely destroys the rationale against porn that it objectifies
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 11:30 PM
Nov 2013

women.

Not all porn involves women at all. Some is all men both as actor/participant and viewer. There are no women there to be exploited.

Some porn is exclusively women and doesnt involve men at all either as actor/participant or viewer. Thus there are no men exploiting women.

Pretending gay porn doesnt exist because its too difficult to fold into your argument doesnt make your argument stronger.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
9. Chomsky agreed to an interview without checking out who it was? Is...
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 07:36 PM
Nov 2013

this normal for superstar geniuses?

But, anyway, if he never heard of Hustler, how much are we to think he really knows about porn?

(Again-- have Annie Sprinkle ask the questions...)

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
10. translation: "Don't make me think about workers rights"
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 07:37 PM
Nov 2013

"when it comes to porn. I won't, I won't. I won't."

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
14. Well, I have heard some porn stars talk about...
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 07:41 PM
Nov 2013

the great money they make and the way they are treated as goddesses on the set.

What specifically is the "rights" part that is any worse than the "rights" problems any employees of any gender have in other jobs?

 

xulamaude

(847 posts)
17. There are women I know
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 07:58 PM
Nov 2013

who speak very favorably about being Associates at Wal Mart and how well they are treated.

JI7

(89,173 posts)
18. Romney talked about how the Chinese love working in those factories
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:00 PM
Nov 2013

they are lining up to get a chance to .

JI7

(89,173 posts)
33. yes, i got it
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:33 PM
Nov 2013

i was agreeing with you and using another similar example where just because someone may have said something doesn't mean it's so great.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
84. Chomsky is notoriously out of touch with mainstream stuff.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:33 PM
Nov 2013

Particularly as it concerns cultural elements. It's actually an area where his analysis falls flat. I believe him when he says he wasn't aware of who Hustler was, but I think it is a cop-out that he didn't get the full transcript to sign off on, that is not a right in any interview format. If you're going to say something own it. If it's taken out of context provide the context. But still own it.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
11. Wait, he says he didn't know what "the Hustler" was
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 07:38 PM
Nov 2013

but he agreed to be interviewed Hustler, was interviewed by Hustler, and had his interview published in Hustler in 2004?

And we're supposed to take this pious CYA job seriously?

Sorry if this is a tangent, but Noam is a hustler's hustler and this is just one more example.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
15. Chomsky's seal of approval on the cover of Hustler says a hell of a lot more about Chomsky
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 07:49 PM
Nov 2013

than some pro-forma cant on a youtube.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
24. "seal of approval"
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:19 PM
Nov 2013

If Larry Flint printed it, it must be a "seal of approval." Ignore what Chomsky actually says. Jesus. Even you can't believe that truckload of manure.

The extent to which some insist on lying to themselves is truly astounding.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
25. that poster really had to twist around to land on feet with that. calling chomsky a liar, wow. nt
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:20 PM
Nov 2013

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
43. See for yourself:
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:41 PM
Nov 2013

Click here to see the September 2005 Hustler cover featuring "Noam Chomsky" in big, bold, gold letters:

*WARNING: mildly pornographic Hustler cover* : http://www.flickr.com/photos/mindfad/170208310/

Yes, I'd call that a seal of approval, seen by all of Hustler's readers. And yes, I'm calling Chomsky a hypocrite.


p.s. I tried to put this image in an HREF link but I couldn't get it to work.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
60. No, I called him a hustler's hustler. You called him a liar.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:53 PM
Nov 2013

Anyway I don't give a #@%* what that clown has to say about anything but my advice is to find better advocates.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
68. when you ignore what he says about not knowing hustler, hence the error, that would be calling the
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:04 PM
Nov 2013

man a liar. no backpedaling.... now

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
72. ok. when you hear what he says and do not believe him, then you are saying he is a liar. fuck... lol
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:07 PM
Nov 2013

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
88. I'm not sure ignorance of culture makes one a hypocrite.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:37 PM
Nov 2013

I think he simplified the argument in his head and because he's out of touch with popular culture, by his own admission, he just waffled on the subject and internal contradictions with his argument surface.

In the end he does not believe pornography should be outlawed.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
92. Could be.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:44 PM
Nov 2013

The zeitgeist has changed a lot since 2005 and what was okay then isn't so okay now. I remember when this article came out and it was greeted with the usual accolades. If there was any grumbling I didn't hear it. Times change and I'm not bagging on Chomsky for doing the interview, just for trying to weasel out of it.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
95. Yeah, it's a cop-out.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:49 PM
Nov 2013

The 2011 interview I linked he backs off the rhetoric. From the OP's interview you'd think he would want to ban all pornography, as indeed, you would want to ban all child abuse. But he explicitly states in the 2011 interview that he wouldn't want to outlaw pornography.

Therefore his original analogy comparing pornography to child abuse fails.

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
20. I thought it wasn't about porn, but "rape porn"
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:07 PM
Nov 2013

So it really is about porn in general. So you know what, if you don't like it, don't watch it. As others have posted already many times, it really is simple as that.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
21. it is called education. chomsky is respected by liberals. it is others right to listen
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:10 PM
Nov 2013

just it is your right not to

and baines certainly has the right to put up a video of a man that many liberals respect

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
23. Never said anything like they couldn't post it
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:17 PM
Nov 2013

Just noting that this duer posted a long thread repeatedly saying that the problem wasn't porn, but rape porn, so apparently that was not the whole truth.

I respect Chomsky views, but not so much the OP's. Hiding behind Chomsky is not very brave!

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
27. i didnt read that thread, so i do not know whether you state it accurately or not. i have issues
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:22 PM
Nov 2013

with porn. and i can give many reason why it is harmful. like chomsky. without being for a ban.

simulated rape porn that is often actual rape though is a different animal. i do not know what baines was saying about the two.

 

xulamaude

(847 posts)
22. It seems that the subject of this OP
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:14 PM
Nov 2013

is what Mr. Chomsky has to say about porn in this short clip.

 

xulamaude

(847 posts)
28. From the clip:
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:24 PM
Nov 2013

Like child abuse: "you don't want to make it better child abuse, you want to stop child abuse"

- italic and underline mine based on my understanding of spoken US english...

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
48. Hilarious, same people howling they weren't talking about limitations on freedom of speech
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:45 PM
Nov 2013

Implying that consensual adults doing things they don't like in front of cameras is basically child abuse and must be stopped.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
57. are you saying that freedom of speech is demanding no one puts up chomsky
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:50 PM
Nov 2013

to hear what he has to say about the issue?

odd, that

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
67. Yes clearly that is exactly what I am saying.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:03 PM
Nov 2013

Last edited Fri Nov 29, 2013, 11:32 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't know how anyone could read my post and think I meant to say anything other than that I believe the meaning of the first amendment is that every American has a sacred duty to find Chomsky and put a ball gag in his mouth.

By no means is it likely or even possible that I meant that I disagree with Chomsky's implication that porn is broken and can never be fixed (inferring it should probably be banned). Nor that I am saying it is hypocritical for other people who had stressed that wasn't what they were saying and were only talking about rape porn, to cheer him on when he says that. No, I clearly meant that I want to personally silence Chomsky and ensure that no one ever gets to hear what he has to say about porn again.

Disagreeing with what he said, MUST mean that I want to remove his ability to say it and that I want to prevent anyone else from sharing those words.

You did it buddy, you unraveled the mystery of my post. No one else could, but you alone have deciphered the cryptic meaning behind my words. It took you personally to bravely looked past what I actually wrote and find the god given truth behind my statements.

Congratulations!


Kurska

(5,739 posts)
77. Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:13 PM
Nov 2013

You've got to be kidding me. I've been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It's just common sense.

Figure if you're going to do that, I can pretty much just post whatever. Feel free to hallucinate and respond to whatever argument you want to counter, I'll just post gibberish. It is better this way.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
99. Chomsky does not want to outlaw pornography.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:55 PM
Nov 2013

Does that mean he does not want to outlaw child abuse?

last1standing

(11,709 posts)
29. I posted a comment you may have missed the other day relating to this.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:25 PM
Nov 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4094129

Considering the heated exchange we had, I wasn't sure if you had read it. Anyway, I'd be interested in your response.

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
78. I had not seen that
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:16 PM
Nov 2013

I grew weary of the thread. I appreciate your reading and reflecting on my points and will get back to you later.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
35. I love how for hundreds of posts it was "all about rape porn, no one is trying to take porn away"
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:33 PM
Nov 2013

Last edited Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:32 PM - Edit history (1)

Yet here we are, having to debate the acceptability of porn in general with the same people who were saying it was all about rape porn.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
41. The argument changes by the day.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:39 PM
Nov 2013

It's best not to think about it too much. Frankly, I've lost track of what all they hate by now.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
42. Apparently we're supposed to be sickened that adults are consuming naughty films or books
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:41 PM
Nov 2013

But my my, by no means are the people advocating that prudes or busy bodies who can't mind their own business. They will scream that at you as they tell you that you are somehow a rape apologist for disagreeing with them on the limits of freedom of speech.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
50. I went into Twin Peaks once.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:46 PM
Nov 2013

I wonder if I have to stand before the tribunal for that. Oh, also, I like large breasts. According to one of the outrage threads a while back, that makes me a sexist SOB. Of course, even though I personally don't like porn and don't watch it, I have no problem with other people watching it. That earns me a special spot in hell because I'm for that freedom of expression thing.

 

loli phabay

(5,580 posts)
47. i believe the poster should actually go to some of the sites and talk to participants
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:44 PM
Nov 2013

Get the reasons why instead of just assuming, the reasons. Then i may respect her opinion on it.

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
59. In the Military and in Project management we call it "Mission Creep"
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:52 PM
Nov 2013

Goes from "Rape Porn" to suddenly all porn....One should look hard at these instigators.

0rganism

(23,855 posts)
37. seems like this statement arbitrarily restricted his scope to the role of women in pornography
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:36 PM
Nov 2013

Now it is a short statement, so given that, addressing the industry's maltreatment of females is probably the single-most pressing item on the agenda. But it leaves open a whole range of discussion topics on which he might very well have interesting opinions.

There are men working in the porn industry, willfully and for pay. Is he insinuating that they unable to get decent jobs elsewhere? Or are their roles so fundamentally different that they are not considered degraded the way women are?

There is pornography which excludes women entirely -- is he okay with gay porn?

What about simulated pornography, e.g. hentai? No women are abused in such productions, but the depictions can be at least as vulgar and degrading as anything Hustler has ever published. To what extent is the depiction of a degrading act itself a problem for a society?

It'd be nice to see him take longer to go into a more open-ended exposition.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
39. Oh goody, another person who pretends gay people don't exist when discussing this
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:38 PM
Nov 2013

So tell me, if me and my boyfriend were to get it on on camera, who would be exploiting who? Or would it just be some kind of mutually assured exploitation?

Does it depend on who is getting penetrated? Please I'd love to know, I want to be sure not to accidentally oppress my boyfriend in the bedroom.

MNBrewer

(8,462 posts)
51. That's one possibility, that homosexuals never cross their mind
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:46 PM
Nov 2013

Another is that this class of liberal makes uses the definition of "pornography is violence against women; violence against women is pornography". Everything else is "erotica". Thus, by their definition, there can never be such a thing as all-male pornography.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
54. Not only must it not cross their minds, but it also must be actively filtered out too.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:49 PM
Nov 2013

Considering that me and many other gay people have asked the sex-negativers repeatedly about gay people and all we get is crickets who throw away replies.

MNBrewer

(8,462 posts)
61. Exactly the response that I've encountered
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:53 PM
Nov 2013

They are so devoted to their "pornography is violence against women" ideology that the concept of anything else causes them to short circuit.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
126. Crickets is the nicest response by them I've seen
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 11:36 PM
Nov 2013

The other response I have seen is that the LGBT dimension doesn't matter because it's just a rare one-off instance.

They don't say that much anymore. I guess they figured out how insulting and borderline bigoted that response was so they know better than to say it.

By the way, this has been pointed out enough to the anti-porn group enough that they all know very well about it and they know they have no good response to it. Anything that detracts from the mantra that porn is nothing but something bad being done to a woman is discarded.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
127. Frankly, it is embarrassing they won't respond to the question.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 11:41 PM
Nov 2013

It shows a real lack of intellectual courage. Rather than accept the argument or disagree with it with a respond response, they just pretend it isn't happen.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
90. Chomsky, while it is not obvious, is referring to the capitalist porn industry.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:43 PM
Nov 2013

It is obvious when you piece together what he says but because he takes a more conservative stance personally the underlying intent is lost.

If you and your partner were out of a job and needed to pay rent and someone were to tell you that they would pay for you to have sex on camera, and this is not something that you were inclined to do, then you would certainly be degraded in that respect.

I have doubts that Chomsky is even aware of amateur stuff or the more mainstream stuff that is surfacing these days. Back in the day pornography was about exploitation but with the advent of the internet and HD cameras it is something that anyone can get in to and get out of at will.

20 years ago it was very hard to get out of the industry.

Today you can do it one time, ten times, a hundred times, doesn't matter. You can go independent and run your own service, you can work under the auspices of another more well known name, but you aren't as exploited as the porn stars of the late 80s and 90s and even early 2000s were.

I would bet $100 that if someone asked Chomsky, "What do you think of Kink.com's pornographic material?" he would indeed have the same response as he did when asked about ... Lady Gaga. "I'm not aware of it, I personally think porn is degrading as it is exploitive because of the economic nature of capitalism."

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
100. Very well thought out post
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:56 PM
Nov 2013

I do think a lot these "all porn is exploitation" posts are caused because many of these people have no idea how diverse the industry currently is.

By all means, there is exploitation in the industry, but it isn't a universal thing.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
105. I think it is increasingly less exploitive.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 10:00 PM
Nov 2013

But I do agree with Chomsky that the porn industry and sex worker industries respectively are currently exploitive under the capitalist system we currently live within.

However, I disagree that they are exploitive as a necessary condition of the product. ie, you can have porn and sex work that is non-exploitive. And I think we're seeing that on the increase as people get access to more and more technology.

And because Chomsky self-admittedly is out of touch with popular culture and doesn't even use computers that much anymore (so much for being an AI guy; don't get me started on his linguistics and AI approaches) he's sort of incapable of giving a consistent answer on this subject.

(already he said he didn't want to outlaw porn while earlier comparing it to child abuse; that does not mean he wouldn't wish for child abuse to be outlawed, as he most certainly would)

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
96. You'd be exploiting him, because you're a guy and thus an abuser.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:49 PM
Nov 2013

but it wouldn't matter because as a guy he can't be a victim.

See?

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
44. But, but, but...
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:41 PM
Nov 2013

it's about rape porn, not all porn, right?

What about the Sports Illustrated swimsuit calendars? Are they okay? How long before we are all supposed to be good and pissed off about those, too?

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
46. How bout sex clothing in general, only thing worse than porn on film is real life porn.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:43 PM
Nov 2013

If only there was a piece of clothing that could cover an entire woman's body. We could make that mandatory so that no man every gets an accidental thrill by observing a woman's body.

Then women would REALLY be liberated.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
53. Didn't that work out really well in some other part of the world?
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:48 PM
Nov 2013

I'll have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure they tried that and everything was all sunshine and unicorns and happily ever after.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
58. Yes I think I know where you are talking about, it is a shining bastion of women's rights.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:51 PM
Nov 2013

Clearly once we remove all ability of women to present themselves as sexual "objects" they will finally be liberated and freed.


in case the possible jury can't figure this one out.

idwiyo

(5,113 posts)
65. you really, really don't want to reopen THAT can of worms...
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:02 PM
Nov 2013


Try searching DU for FEMEN & islamism, you'll see what I mean.



P.S. And don't ever call them breasts 'titties', 'tits', or 'boobies'! Never ever!

idwiyo

(5,113 posts)
79. That's The Politically Korrekt and The Only Aproved Way of adressing them.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:19 PM
Nov 2013

But no 'titties'. Or 'breasties'. None of that nonsense! And them breasts MUST BE COVERED!
'Cause otherwise oppressive pig-man will exploit them by ogling!

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
82. My wife uses the "t-word" occasionally.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:30 PM
Nov 2013

Sometimes she doesn't cover them completely either. Is she a tool of the patriarchy? If so, I need to warn her.

That's going to be an awkward conversation, but we want to be sure to follow the rules.

idwiyo

(5,113 posts)
98. It's a VERY Series Question! On one hand those are her boobies and she can do as she wants.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:55 PM
Nov 2013

On the other hand by calling them a (dreaded) T-word, AND exposing them (even partially) she definitely contributes to the patriarchal oppression.
'Cause that gives you (a pig-man, oppressor, and exploiter) a chance to ogle.

If I remember it correctly, nudity is BAD! Any and all. Unless in the privacy of one's own home, far away and safe from demeaning attention of sexually obsessive he-ogres.

Or something like it.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
108. Well, she claims to like it when I ogle them.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 10:05 PM
Nov 2013

Do you think she really means that and has an educated, well-informed opinion, or has she been brainwashed by the patriarchy?

As far as I know, the only male ogre she totally exposes them to is me. Do you think that is acceptable to the arbiters of morality, or is it just another symptom of the male privilege disease destroying our society?

So many things to think about. Maybe I need to go read up on some Dworkin Pearls of Wisdom.

Notice how I did that - capitalizing Dworkin and Pearls of Wisdom? I typed it in a reverent tone too. I'm learning.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
116. No way.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 10:22 PM
Nov 2013

That would mean more men looking at breasts (don't mean to offend anyone with that word). That would be wrong. Just wrong.

idwiyo

(5,113 posts)
113. You'll need to ask an expert, totally out of my depth. :( Am nudist AND watch porn.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 10:19 PM
Nov 2013

And call my tits 'boobies' 'cause they float when we go skinny dipping. Am much, much worse than your wife, who is a saint to compare to me.

But, if you really want to know, just start an OP about FEMEN...





P.S. Respect for managing to even type 'Dworkin' without killing yourself laughing.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
121. "Am much, much worse than your wife..."
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 10:51 PM
Nov 2013

It's possible that you have been brainwashed by the patriarchy. You might even be "looking for a pat on the head." Being a pig-like male (is there any other kind?), I'm not qualified to counsel you. However, I can direct you to a certain group that can tell you exactly how women are expected to think. If you are unsure of your opinion on anything, they will be happy to give it to you.

idwiyo

(5,113 posts)
139. They don't like me... :( 'cause am wiked and un-repentant!
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 07:50 AM
Nov 2013

Am destined for HeL 'cause wilfully enjoy looking at tits and butts. Can't honestly denounce patriarchy 'cause them cute butts...

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
130. How dare you use the F word!
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 11:54 PM
Nov 2013

Femen are bad, bad, bad because they allow men who are not their husbands to see their boobies and some of those men might enjoy the experience making it twice as bad.

Didn't you get the memo?

Femen are evil! They are satan, beelzebub, Loki, the Boogeyman and Freddie from Nightmare on Elm street (if he was a misguided woman) all in one!

just in case it is necessary.

idwiyo

(5,113 posts)
138. Am goin' to HeL... For real... 'Cause am brainwashed and wiked...
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 07:35 AM
Nov 2013


We are all in this thread 'cause of pron. Even me... Just caught myself looking through F*M*N photo gallery... Oh my!

http://femen.org/en/gallery

Never mind I love ogling my BF's butt... and thinkin' Evil thoughts like this:



Am so goin' to HeL!

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
73. Don't like porn, don't watch it.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:07 PM
Nov 2013

It works in our house.

If you can keep singing the same tune, so can I.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
76. Santorum on porn
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:13 PM
Nov 2013
“America is suffering a pandemic of harm from pornography. It contributes to misogyny and violence against women. It is a contributing factor to prostitution and sex trafficking,” the former Pennsylvania senator wrote in a statement posted on his campaign website.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/16/rick-santorum-war-on-porn_n_1353383.html

Seems he's got a support group on DU.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
80. Wow...you knocked that one out of the park.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:23 PM
Nov 2013

I have often said that liberals who want to ban pornography are unwitting allies of the right-wing fundamentalists. Maybe we need a Santorum group here.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
89. Here's some other allies besides sweater vest man
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:39 PM
Nov 2013

One of the massive anti-pornographer cheerleading threads in GD linked to one of the worst sort of homophobic shitbaggery sites and channeled junk scientist Mary Anne Layden who said women who watch porn are more likely to be raped.

1) Judith Reisman
2) Ed Meese
3) Charles Keating
4) Susan Brownmiller
5) Andrea Dworkin
6) Mary Anne Layden
7) Catharine MacKinnon
8) Gail Dines
9) Jerry Falwell
10) Laura Schlessinger
11) Sheila Jeffreys
12) Phyllis Schlafly
13) James Dobson
14) Rick Santorum
15) Michele Bachmann

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
94. Well if Michele Bachman says it...
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:46 PM
Nov 2013

the issue is settled as far as I'm concerned. (In case it's needed.)

I've read before that Dworkin and Mackinnon actively cooperated with Ed Meese. The anti-porn crusade certainly brings together some diverse allies.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
101. You doubled up on sweater vest man there, #14
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:57 PM
Nov 2013

No human being should suffer a double helping of Santorum.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
81. Noam Chomsky: "I'm no expert on pornography. ... I don't think it should be outlawed."
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:30 PM
Nov 2013

This video, like all Chomsky videos, is taking him out of context. Chomsky takes the easy path when he acknowledges his unrelenting failure to understand popular culture.

Noam Chomsky: Never heard of it. I'm pretty much out of popular culture altogether.

Jeff Jetton: Is that everyday world that most people find so fascinating ... why is it so uninteresting to you?

Noam Chomsky: I don't know, I just don't care about it. It looks to me pointless and superficial. If I had free time I'd rather read a nineteenth century novel.

Jeff Jetton: In the post-Hustler interviews, you seem to have a rabid distaste for porn, calling it degrading to women. But surely there's a deeper conversation to be had about human sexuality and erotic material. Is it just that all pornography is --

Noam Chomsky: I'm no expert on pornography. The core element of it, I think, is degradation of women, whatever else goes on. I don't think it should be outlawed, but I'm not in favor of the degradation of anybody.

Jeff Jetton: Do you know who Lady Gaga is?

Noam Chomsky: I've seen ads and stuff, but no.


This is a cop out and sadly one of Chomsky's later life failings. This attitude that a nineteenth century novel is less superficial than modern popular culture is bourgeoisie-esque, and really a problem in modern socialist thinking as a whole.

I don't disagree with Chomsky's acknowledgement of the economic relationship toward pornography. But to suggest that he intends that all pornography is bad is a failure to understand that he doesn't get pornography produced by willing individuals in a current, popular culture mindset. Kink is not Vivid, to put it simply as possible.

In the end Chomsky does suggest an understanding in that vein, as he doesn't think porn should be outlawed. Yet I am sure he would believe that child abuse should be outlawed (thus his own analogy isn't a one to one relationship with child abuse and he contradicted himself; the results of age, no doubt).

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
128. I don't suggest anything
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 11:44 PM
Nov 2013

I posted the video. He doesn't know Joan Jett and many here don't know Gramsci. So? Would intimate knowledge of porn convince him that it did not involve degradation of women? If he only could watch everything available on the internet, it would convince him it really wasn't so bad?
Yeah. Right.

Chomsky is an academic. It's hardly unexpected that he would value arts and letters over commerce.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
134. He is self-admittedly ignorant of popular culture.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 12:40 AM
Nov 2013

Therefore his opinion on popular culture will lack consistency.

He stated in 2011 that he does not think that pornography should be outlawed.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
93. "Porn is like child abuse".
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:46 PM
Nov 2013

This is patriarchy in 5 words or less.

I'm ambivalent to porn, but it's infantilizing to demand censorship on that basis.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
97. He doesn't want to outlaw porn though.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:50 PM
Nov 2013

So does he want to not outlaw child abuse?

Doubtful.

Just a later-life Chomsky commenting in areas that are beyond his expertise, imo. By his own admission that he doesn't pay attention to popular culture.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
103. I think we'll get nowhere, either about equality or about making porn safe without acknowleding...
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 09:59 PM
Nov 2013

that the performers are choosing to do it.

As much as I'd like to make coal mining safe, and push the lifespan of the average coal miner beyond 57 years, I have to concede that even though circumstances have conspired to encourage them to choose that line of work, they are there of their own volition.

The blame can't be entirely laid at the feet of consumers. It makes no more sense to blame men on DU for every bad anecdote in the porn industry as it is to blame families watching TV's in the midwest for the deaths caused by the coal industry.

Here's what I would find compelling: an interview with an actual porn veteran who explains why it was a negative experience and why she chose (not "was forced into" but "chose&quot that line of work.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
111. There are plenty of interviews in that vein.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 10:11 PM
Nov 2013

Search for the names on this site, each will come up with their personal stories: http://donnypauling.net/2010/03/11/is-this-sexy/

The initial choice is probably glamor and easy money.

One really peculiar thing left out of these discussions are gay for pay, such as straight males doing gay scenes for money. That's got to be exploitive, whether you want to say it is or not, if the guy can't get scenes with women or is making more money doing other guys, then he's being exploited, even if he chooses to do it, the choice is forced upon him by his economic expectations and desires within society.

I do think we can blame consumers but I think that in fact the move away from more exploitive porn to less exploitive porn as the internet evolves is proof that consumers don't want exploitive porn. If you watch a Kink.com video and listen to the actors in the videos, they talk about the experience going into it and after the fact, and it is always a good experience. Safe words are pushed hard in that environment and the actors are there to enjoy themselves (just like regular actors).

If a college girl gets walked up to by some recruiter and he goes "hey, we'll give you a thousand bucks to do this one scene, it'll only take thirty minutes" it's a very difficult proposition to pass up on, especially if one naively thinks that their reputation will survive it. We see this actually in the case with some teachers who did those one time gigs only to be fired from their jobs later on in life once their past acting behavior was found out. Would said aspiring teacher had necessarily taken the thousand bucks if there was a living wage? A negative income tax (ie a living wage, guaranteed income, above poverty, etc)?

Doubtful.

HatTrick

(129 posts)
106. What about the article though?
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 10:02 PM
Nov 2013

Anyone know if the Chomsky article "The war on real Americans" is available anywhere?
Sounds interesting. Might be old information after 8 years, I'm guessing it still has a lot of good information.

When I tried a search, I only found links to buy back issues of Hustler.

See, I just want to read the articles, really

BainsBane

(53,001 posts)
107. I don't know
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 10:04 PM
Nov 2013

Chomsky said he didn't get a transcript of the interview, which is standard. That leaves the impression he might have found it distorted somehow. I don't know if Hustler even asked him about porn. From the intervierview, it appears not.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
122. Not a big fan of Andrea Dworkin (helping pass a Canadian law--
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 11:21 PM
Nov 2013

--that gets your own work stopped at the border is seriously dumb), but she did make a good point about the word obscenity. It refers to things that should now be shown. She said that she was not interested in talking about what should or should not be shown, but about the meaning of what is being shown. What I'm seeing on most of these threads is people trying to talk about the meaning of what is being shown, and constantly getting derailed into the idiotic side show argument about what should or should not be shown.

 

woolldog

(8,791 posts)
123. BainsBane, after you're successful in getting rid of porn,
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 11:28 PM
Nov 2013

can we get rid of alcohol next? It's the devil's nectar.

last1standing

(11,709 posts)
124. I think Chomsky is half right on this issue.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 11:28 PM
Nov 2013

He's spot on when he talks about eliminating the conditions that force women into actions they feel are degrading to them. As I stated in another thread, that includes a guaranteed livable wage, guaranteed healthcare, and cultural changes on the expected role of women in society.

I believe he's wrong in equating pornography to child abuse. Women are not girls, they are adults. The reason we outlaw child abuse is children are not considered equal players in society. They are given protection based on their mental, emotional and physical inferiority compared with adults who could exploit them. Women are not inferior. In fact, much of the problems in today's culture stem from the perception of female inferiority that still lingers such as considering women to be prizes for men.

I believe the best path for those who would reduce the number of women (or men) degraded by being forced into pornography would be to eliminate the core issues Chomsky rightly alludes to while promoting the fact that people who do work in pornography are real, hard working, individuals with lives much like anyone else's.

The reason I don't go to strip clubs for my own enjoyment is due to my first experience at one. When I was 19, I crossed the border to Canada to go to my first club. While I was there, the guy next to me was getting table dances from a woman throughout the evening. While the music was going, she focused entirely on her client, but between songs she would immediately turn to me and talk about college, her kids, how she was planning her future and how difficult it was, etc... That experience provided me a real insight on the reality of stripping. She was an actor playing a part. As soon as she wasn't getting paid, she stopped her performance. On the other hand, that acting job was allowing her to raise her children and get through school. Taking that away from her with no other form of decent income waiting would be far more cruel and degrading than letting her continue to strip.

While that evening destroyed the naïve illusion of desirability that much of stripping is premised on (at least for me), I would never try to ban it or any other type of sex work as these are the choices that people make based on their options (obviously exempting sex slavery which is already illegal and should be aggressively prosecuted). Instead, I support increasing the available options so that no one is forced into work they despise just to survive.

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
133. I don't care what he says about porn or anyone else.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 12:34 AM
Nov 2013

If it's between consenting adults, it's none of my business and none of your's.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
135. I'm a fan of Chomsky, but I found his comparison of women to little children here offensive. /nt
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 12:58 AM
Nov 2013

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
136. Women are children -things to be protected
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 01:06 AM
Nov 2013

It's hard to see how a feminist could subscribe to this view.

And yet... it's hard to avoid concluding that this is some people's view.

 

CorrectOfCenter

(101 posts)
140. I'd rather hear from an academic whose plumbing still works.
Sat Nov 30, 2013, 08:09 AM
Nov 2013

Sorry for being so crass, but I don't take kindly to moral superiority.

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