I keep getting told woo is "harmless..."

[Archae]

Tell that to this 7 year old boy who died in agony.
Because of his Mom's wacko belief.

Calgary police have arrested a local woman in connection with the death of her son.

Emergency crews were called out to a basement suite in the 900 block of 17 Avenue S.W. on Saturday, March 2, 2013 for a report of a seven-year-old boy having a seizure.

The child was taken to hospital and pronounced dead on arrival.

The CPS Homicide Unit was called in to investigate because of the boy’s condition when he arrived at hospital.

It is alleged that the boy, who lived with his mother, was suffering from a treatable illness but was not taken for medical attention despite his deteriorating condition.

Police say an autopsy later showed the boy died as a result of a strep infection which is often treatable.

Police allege the victim was given holistic remedies and was bedridden for up to 10 days before his death.

Read more: http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-mother-arrested-in-death-of-young-son-1.1555943#ixzz2mFpR9JbK

[hlthe2b]

1. Clearly this one was... n/t

(harmful)

[MineralMan]

2. Woo can kill. We lost a kid to measles here in the Twin Cities.

Anti-vax folks are to blame for that one.

Then there are all the deaths from cancer woo. Sad.

[Big Blue Marble]

3. Do you have equal concern about the thousands that die each year trusting mainstream medical care?

Thousands of Americans are dying each year due to medical mistakes.
These are people who have entered the medical system expecting care
which is safe and effective. And they die.

[link:http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/20/224507654/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-u-s-hospitals|]

A whole lot more people are killed by mainstream medicine than "woo."

They very often suffer greatly in the process.

[link:http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/20/224507654/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-u-s-hospitals|

[Archae]

7. Mainstream medicine usually has a way to correct mistakes.

One good example, Darvon.
It was on the market for decades until heart problems were proven to be caused by it.

BUT...

Did you know that even decades after "laetrile" was shown to be ineffective, and even dangerous, it's still being sold as a "cure" for cancer?

Thank you Utah Senator Orrin Hatch, who put riders into medical legislation, that allows "alternative" advocates to make claims for their vitamin concoctions and snake oil. Without having to show evidence they actually *GASP* work.
You don't suppose his son's business, selling vitamins and other supplements had anything to do with it, eh?
Nahhh...

[Pathwalker]

14. I took Darvon ONCE. I almost died. I passed out, and woke up the next day,

in ICU, inside an oxygen tent. Yeah, it took them decades to take it off the market, despite thousands of heart attacks in otherwise previously healthy people, like me.

[auntsue]

34. I tool Darvon for post-surgical pain

no side-effects - at all

[hollysmom]

52. I took it and went into Seizure

Never take a new med or over the counter med when you are alone, I don't even eat new foods when I am alone because of my weird allergies.

[Big Blue Marble]

18. Tell that to those that died.

And you are living in denial if you think medicine and Pharma are diligently
working to correct their mistakes. But then we all know there is no profit to
be made in the mainstream health industry.

[Ms. Toad]

26. You might want to do some fact checking.

"The FDA placed sanctions against the sale of Laetrile. In 1977, the FDA commissioner stated that there was no evidence for the safety or effectiveness of Laetrile. Because of the risk of cyanide poisoning, the government has banned the transport of Laetrile into the United States or across state lines, as well as the use of Laetrile in states without laws specifically allowing it. Since 2000, there have been several instances of prosecution because of Laetrile transport across state lines. Nonetheless, products advertised as Laetrile and amygdalin can still be purchased via many websites."

http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/complementaryandalternativemedicine/pharmacologicalandbiologicaltreatment/laetrile

In other words, you cannot legally sell laetrile as a cure for cancer - if you do, you risk prosecution. Whatever you believe about Hatch's personal motives, any riders he may have added do not permit false advertising.

[Archae]

67. Several months ago, I saw a website selling laetrile as a cancer cure.

Was it illegal? I don't know.

From what you posted, sounds like it wasn't legal to sell it like that.

I get a newsletter in my e-mail from "Quackwatch," one group Quackwatch goes after rather strongly are those "doctors" (either real or fake,) that administer chelation, most often as a "cure" for autism.

Yet...

Woo pushers are still at it in droves, Andrew Weil is still advertising (including here at DU,) Jenny McCarthy is doing ads on TV recently, and little kids are being murdered by their parents on the advice of quacks and faith healers.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

10. Now there's a spectacularly silly and unfair comparison.

Far more people die while being treated with medicine (no need to add the mocking qualifier "mainstream&quot because a) far more people use it, and b) that predominance is more pronounced the more seriously ill someone is - even most people who claim to believe in alternative "medicine" (and on that occasion the scare quotes are entirely justified) have the sense not to use it to treat anything really serious. And if you're treating a serious condition, you sometimes have to use riskier treatments.

[Big Blue Marble]

16. This is not about riskier treatments.

This is about medical mistakes, commonly called malpractice. It is so much easier to
attack alternative options than to face the fact that medicine as it is currently practiced
is killing thousands of people. Rationalize all you want, then look at the statistics.

[Humanist_Activist]

23. Medical mistakes kill people, "alternative" medicine just kills them outright.

At least evidence based medicine works.

[Big Blue Marble]

28. Mainstream medicine is responsible for far more injuries and death than alternative medicine.

Your statement makes no sense.
"Medical mistakes kill people, "alternative" medicine just kills them outright."

Are you saying you are more dead if you are killed by alternative medicine than mainstream medicine?

Last I knew, dead is dead.

[Humanist_Activist]

38. You seem to be confusing mistakes with treatment...

medical mistakes can maim and hurt people, "alternative" medicine can, at best, not make things worse, it can't cure, period, and the waste of resources and time involved can lead to maiming and killing people, as demonstrated in the example the OP provided.

[Big Blue Marble]

54. You seemed confused with how often medical treatments applied as intended maim and kill.

There are so called alternative treatments that do work. As we speak, in my city,
there are research trials of an alternative treatment for cancer patients on going
in a major cancer center. This method of healing is being applied concurrently with
standard protocols of treatment. This method has successfully helped patients. No
one is being maimed or killed.

The grants this major cancer center has received for this research have been expanded
due to the success so far. Ask the patients. They will tell you this use or resources and
time have not been wasted. The physicians do not think it is wasted either.

On another note, very little that medicine offers to day can cure either. Mainstream
medicine more often than not manages symptoms with drugs, sometimes well and
sometimes not so well.

Despite your bias, there are alternatives methods that work and there are those
that do not. The same can be said of the medical industrial complex. Smart people
will know when to use both to support their health.

[Humanist_Activist]

65. Tell me about these alternatives that actually work, and give me the clinical trial data please...

I especially HATE the people who promise to cure cancer through bullshit, if I weren't an atheist, I would think that there is a special place in hell reserved for those fuckers.

[D23MIURG23]

85. "Despite your bias, there are alternatives methods that work"

If they work then they ought to be proven in a clinical trial so that actual doctors will realize that these "alternatives" are viable treatment strategies.

Even if it is true that that some "alternatives" work, that wouldn't be a justification for setting up an "alternative" medical establishment, and exempting its proposed treatments from scientific investigation. If a treatment works, then that needs to be shown in a proper study, period. Otherwise smart people won't have reliable information to work with when considering what therapies to employ.

As for the claim in the title, citation needed. I'm not aware of any "alternatives" that have worked when actually tested, although I am aware of people who will try to use things like reiki and acupuncture as counterexamples in discussion. Just look up Tom Harkin's "National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine" if you want to see what happens to "alternative medicine" when it ends up on the business end of a scientific study. Harkin managed to get this thing funded, thinking all these "alternatives" were going to enrich our therapeutic arsenal, and now he is pissed off at the center because they aren't discovering anything.

[D23MIURG23]

84. "Mainstream medicine" is effective, "alternative medicine" is ineffective.

Its true that you can be killed by a doctor who makes a mistake, and that will always be true of any kind medicine. The big difference is that medicine backed up by science (or that canard you used in your title if you prefer) actually has the potential to end illnesses that your body can't cope with unaided. Fake medicine "alternative medicine" isn't validated by the scientific method, and doesn't have that potential. Its a bunch of nice sounding quackery and superstition.

[Ms. Toad]

31. Actually - it doesn't always work.

I trust it more because I trust the methods used to review it establish that it is more likely to be helpful than not. But I don't trust it blindly, any more than I distrust alternative medicine blindly.

But when the condition being treated is uncommon, the available evidence just may not be there. Then there are the quantum leaps - which seem so obvious to everyone involved that they are used, in an off label capacity, long before the evidence is strong enough to support changes in standard protocols (I'm thinking of the overnight change in treatment of ulcers, as an example). And there are the shared experiences that don't amount to peer reviewed standards which support the off label use of lots of medications. Most medications are tested on adult males. Results are not always identical for children or women - so my daughter (and tons of others) began using a medication which was tested on adult males when she was 4 in an off-label capacity (and is still using it nearly 20 years later - but it was not "evidence based medicine" at the time she started - even though it was a traditional pharmaceutical medicine.

Similarly, she - and several others with her rare disease - have been using fish oils (omega fatty acids) as a supplement for years, based on theoretical research the parent of a patient and a doctor developed about environmental triggers for the disease. As more patient based research is done about the genetic similarities among patients with the disease, that "alternative" treatment is gaining more traction because the particular combination of omega fatty acids regulates expression of messenger RNA which seem to be implicated in the common gene sequences they are learning are associated with the disease.

The lines are not so stark as you are making them.

I am not suggesting going out and swallowing alternative medicine story lines hook, line, and sinker. But often those story lines have developed because there is a kernel of truth supporting them and when we reject the entire story line, we may be missing important opportunities to figure out what that kernel of truth is telling us about diseases that are not yet well understood.

[Humanist_Activist]

39. You seem to be confusing "alternative" medicine, which isn't medicine at all...

until its demonstrated to work, with the edges of knowledge that exist, there's a difference between participating in cutting edge research, or drug trials, or even off-label drug attempts, and going to get your chakras aligned to cure your cancer.

[Ms. Toad]

44. Not at all.

Alternative and complementary medicine is not nearly as limited as the definition you want to impose on it. It includes chelation, chiropracty, acupuncture, homeopathy, aroma therapy, energy work, dietary supplements, Qi Jong, herbal medicine, and a whole host of other practices and substances. Some of it is pretty far out. Some of it not that far off from traditional medicine in terms of what doctors know about how well some things which don't come from a pharmacy or are not necessarily practiced in a traditional (i.e. Western) medical setting work either as alternatives or as a complement to more traditional medicine. And some of it is becoming more mainstream. (http://nccam.nih.gov/ )

Which is actually my point. The sharp line you are trying to draw between the two doesn't exist, and that there are areas in both where we know too little to rely solely on evidence based medicine - and we have to do our best to sort through what is best. If "evidence based" medicine gives a 10% cure rate (with the time gained in most instances suffering severe side effects from the treatment), then perhaps going to get your chakras aligned instead is not such a bad choice. On the other hand, if the cure rate is 90% with traditional medicine and the side effects of short duration and manageable - abandoning that in favor of an alternative treatment which has little to no (or negative) evidence to support is not a good choice if the goal is to stay alive (although doing both would not necessarily be a bad choice).

It isn't that one kills by malpractice and medicine kills in the other case - it that when you are dealing with a disease which kills, death is always a possibility - and to have the best chance of surviving you need accurate information (regardless of whether that information is about traditional medicine or alternative and complementary medicine.

[Humanist_Activist]

68. OK, in order...

Chelation: No clue, looked it up, something about binding metal ions, chemistry term.

Chiropractic practices: Bullshit(and proven so) in curing anything, basis for it is the old 19th century belief in vitalism(life "energy&quot , and freeing it up for cure illnesses. Mild manipulation of the spine may ease pain and conditions related directly with it, but that is about it.

Acupuncture: Mostly bullshit, especially the underlying ideas its based on, may have some deadening affects on nerves and relieve pain that way, however, at best, its treats localized pain only, it doesn't cure or treat underlying conditions.

Homeopathy: The mother of bullshit, its water, and worse than that, its underlying ideas are not only bullshit, but bullshit that is so wrong as to be laughable.

Aromatherapy: Smells affect emotional states, I thought this was established, hence may help with treatments, the whole "sound mind, sound body" idea, which is, itself, ground in science, even if it leads to the placebo affect for much of this list, and for others, like this one, it provides some benefit, however, again, not effective treatments of most illnesses, complementary only.

Energy Work: This term seems to relate to the old, and discredited, idea of vitalism, in other words, bullshit.

Dietary Supplements: You know, I would have less of a problem with these, if they were, I don't know, regulated, so they actually contain what they advertise they contain, many contain nothing more than rice or wheat flour, and that's it. As for the "legitimate" ones, well, they supplement diets, some may help with vitamin and other nutritional deficiencies, but for most people, they just pass right through your system, making for very expensive pee.

Qigong: Just read up on it, seems similar to what I practiced, Tai Chi, basically, exercise is good for you, who knew? Oh yeah, your "traditional medicine" doctor, who probably pushed you to try any type of exercise that strengthens lungs, heart, and helps maintain flexibility and strength of limbs. Very useful, many similar practices exist around the world. Its more metaphysical elements are untestable, of course. In fact, I wouldn't even consider this "alternative medicine" unless you also think Jogging, Yoga, and many other forms of exercise to be "alternative".

Herbal Medicines: You know what they call herbal medicines that work? Just medicine. I have a problem with herbal supplements or treatments though, same problem as dietary supplements above, completely unregulated beyond safety tests.

The issue is this, with only a few exceptions, most of these practices rely exclusively on the placebo affect, and most are not based on any science, but rather wishful thinking, or on age old misconceptions of the human body, biology, and life itself.

[Ms. Toad]

80. Did you bother to check out the US government website I pointed you to -

which includes every singe one of these in its definition of alternative and complementary medicine?

Again, the point is that the alternative medicine includes a very wide range of practices and substances. Some of them are now so well accepted that traditional doctors prescribe or recommend them routinely - including some which people used to believe worked only because of the placebo effect, or were based on age old misconceptions.

By the way the Cleveland Clinic (you know that that world renowned bastion of really far out, anti-science woo) offers acupuncture, Reiki (one form of energy work), and chiropracty as part of its treatment of diseases including heart disease, cancer, diabetes, irritable bowel syndrome, hypertension, multiple sclerosis, and Infertility. And my mainstream insurance plan covers these services to the same extent it covers physical therapy.

So feel free to carry on in your ignorance, but some pretty well respected corners of the scientific world are increasingly recognizing and including alternative and complementary medicine in their bag of tricks.

[Humanist_Activist]

99. No offense, but just because the government supports it isn't a reason to think it is legitimate...

most of it is pure bullshit, just on a practical level, and you have so far failed to provide any type of clinical trial that demonstrates the effectiveness of any of these treatments.

Just an fyi, the government used to fund psychic spies, for crying out loud.

[Ms. Toad]

107. You are notably silent about the Cleveland Clinic

and a major insurance company's (which are just as well known as the Cleveland Clinic for backing junk science ) inclusion in its coverage for treatments using ACM.

My point is not to prove that any or all of these ACM treatments are effective - but to make clear that your simplistic approach to alternative medicine is woefully out of step with current practices of many well respected traditional practices which include alternative and complementary medicine as part of integrative medical care for illnesses - including some pretty serious ones like cancer, IBD, and heart disease. (Although I certainly could point to numerous well researched and peer reviewed studies, but I don't feel like letting you derail the point I have been making.)

You have arbitrarily drawn a very small box into which you place some varieties of ACM (but apparently not all - even when the practitioners themselves would categorize what they do as ACM), then declared (without offering any proof whatsoever, I might add) that alternative medicine kills - but traditional medicine only kills by malpractice.

It is the disease itself which is the primary killer - ACM is much broader that the box you have drawn (the point of the government website), and traditional medicine much riskier when it comes to treating many deadly diseases. If we make informed (and sometimes just plain lucky) choices - whether those choices include traditional medicine, ACM, or both, we may prevent the disease from killing us - or at least extend the period during which our quality of life is good. And, increasingly, traditional, internationally respected practices (like the Cleveland Clinic, Johns Hopkins, the Mayo Clinic, and Stanford - just to name a few) are using ACM as part of an integrated treatment plan - and mainstream insurance coverage is beginning to pay for it.

[Humanist_Activist]

108. My "simplistic" point is this, where is the fucking evidence, apparently, just because....

some medical clinics don't mind selling false hope, you claim that is some type of "proof".

You have to understand this, some things have some veracity, others don't, that's the sliding scale of bullshit:

Homeopathy, for example, is on the extremely bullshit end of the scale, in order for it to work, the laws of the universe have to be wrong, ALL OF THEM.

On the slightly less bullshit side, you have things like Chiropracty, Acupuncture, and other types of "energy work" that involves some type of physical manipulation of the body. They may help with localized pain, aid in physical therapy, etc. but the underlying theories of their more fantastical claims, such treating serious illnesses, is based on gross superstitions and misconceptions about biology that cannot simply be overlooked. Some benefit, yes, but not much more than you would get from standard physical therapy.

Then you have Aromatherapy and other types of things like this, they aid in recovery and treatment by helping to change mood by altering what our senses perceive, solid science, and I hesitate to call this bullshit at all, indeed it is not, for the things it helps with that make sense, for example, setting the proper mindset to help relieve pain. Any claims of cures are unproven and bullshit, smelling lavender isn't curing your rheumatoid arthritis.

Herbalism is tricky, basically its where most medicine comes from, up until recently that is, the ones that pass clinical trials for effectiveness end up being concentrated into useful doses and used regularly in traditional medicines, the ones that don't work, or are impractical to concentrate, or have too many negative side affects, end up being marketed as "supplements" which are unregulated.

[Ms. Toad]

111. Glad to see you finally acknowledge the point I've been making.

Alternative medicine is not monolithic ("some things have some veracity, others don't&quot . That makes your statement that alternative medicine kills (and traditional medicine only kills by malpractice) simplistic. That is the point I've been making all along. Alternative medicine cannot be painted with a single brush - any more than traditional medicine can.

[D23MIURG23]

82. +1

[auntsue]

35. So -- what do you propose

I had a severe infection in my knee ..... it was life threatening. Standard treatment saved my life. Should I have boiled some tree bark or taken something homeopathic???????

[Humanist_Activist]

40. Apparently, according to Big Blue Marble, you have a better chance at praying...

than taking antibiotics.

[Big Blue Marble]

56. Excuse me, where did I mention praying?

As I said to aunt sue, I am on an antibiotic right now.

[Humanist_Activist]

72. So, when do you expect to die?

I mean, you are taking a "traditional medicine" and those kill, according to you, so how long do you have to live? A week, 2 weeks, give us a number!

If you are that concerned that you would defend bullshit like not treating a child for a treatable illness, I would assume you wouldn't be a hypocrite, why not stop taking the antibiotic and drink water, or take St. John's wort or something?

[Big Blue Marble]

78. This is at best a an irrational response. N/T

[Big Blue Marble]

55. I am happy to hear you saved your life.

I, personally, am on a antibiotic right now for an infection that could have been life threatening as well.

The point of my post if you had read carefully, is that mainstream medicine kills a lot of people.
Read the link in my original post. This is a far more serious social problem than how many people
are killed by alternative method of healing whether you want acknowledge it or not.

[Humanist_Activist]

71. Actually, you said medical malpractice kills a lot of people, your problem with...

mainstream medicine seems to be that it at least attempts to be honest, maybe mainstream doctors should act like those who advocate for alternative medicine and claim they have cure-alls available.

[Big Blue Marble]

77. It is mainstream research that says medicine kills

A lot of people not me. So you really believe that Pharma is honest? And you think I am delusional.

[Humanist_Activist]

100. At least big pharma is regulated a little bit, do you trust the big alternative medicine people?

They make billions of dollars a year peddling snake oil, yet the ones who actually have to have clinical trials on shit, big pharma, are the problem, yeah, right.

[Big Blue Marble]

114. Have you any idea how manipulated drug trials are?

How the trials that go the wrong way are hidden as well as many adverse reactions
are hidden from the FDA? Do you know that the FDA is bought and paid for by big
Pharma and that the streamlined approval process means that many of the clinical
trials are in the field?

Do you know that doctors are often misinformed by by drug reps who encourage them
to prescribe off-label for conditions where no clinical trials exist? Do you know that
most of drug trials are off shore in third world countries with populations that bear
little similarity to those who will actually take the drugs and where regulations are
very loose?

It is Big Pharma who on the Big Board raking in the the multi-billions in profits.

http://www.alternet.org/story/147318/100%2C000_americans_die_each_year_from_prescription_drugs%2C_while_pharma_companies_get_rich

"The study estimating that 100,000 Americans die each year from their prescriptions looked only at deaths from known side effects. That is, those deaths didn’t happen because the doctor made a mistake and prescribed the wrong drug, or the pharmacist made a mistake in filling the prescription, or the patient accidentally took too much. Unfortunately, thousands of patients die from such mistakes too, but this study looked only at deaths where our present medical system wouldn’t fault anyone. Tens of thousands of people are dying every year from drugs they took just as the doctor directed. This shows you how dangerous medications are."

Gosh could you name the 'big alternative medicine people and show me the financial
reports showing their billions in profits?

[Marr]

104. Exactly-- sort of like the best surgeons having a higher rate of patient deaths.

They get the tougher cases.

[Logical]

45. LOL,so proven science done incorrectly = no science done correctly. Wow, WTF. n-t

[Big Blue Marble]

58. Science done incorrectly can be very dangerous.

Too bad, you can not ask all those who died last year because science was applied in
error. Of course, you could check with those who were maimed. I know of several
who have recently experienced great trauma from medical errors. Their lives have
been changed forever.

And you are quite delusional if you think that all medical procedures and drugs are based
on evidence based science.

[Logical]

59. But woo with no science is better? Average life span only 100 years....

Ago was 55. Hmmm.....science has done something!

I would suggest you cease using any scientific based medical procedures!

[Big Blue Marble]

61. I would suggest you really do not know what you are talking about.

Major medical and research centers are combining mainstream with alternative medicine
and getting positive results all over the country.

And where is the average age span 100?

[Logical]

62. Link to your best study! nt

[Big Blue Marble]

63. Here you go:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/alternative-medicine-goes-mainstream


"More than one in four U.S. hospitals now offer alternative and complementary therapies, such as acupuncture, homeopathy, and massage therapy, a new survey of nearly 1,400 U.S. hospitals shows."

"Teaching hospitals accounted for 36 percent of hospitals responding to the survey and offering CAM services, perhaps reflecting the finding in a 2004 study that more than three-quarters of medical schools require a course in CAM."

[Humanist_Activist]

70. That's not a scientific study, if you are that ignorant of science, no wonder you...

don't know what you are talking about.

Where are the studies showing the effectiveness of "alternative medicine"?

[Big Blue Marble]

76. My point was that alternative medicine is being incorporated in modern

medicine. This study shows that despite your personal disdain many hospitals
are using these additional forms of healing. I have no interest in proving anything
To you. Many are benefiting from the multidisciplinary approach regardless of what
You personally think about it.

[Logical]

79. From 2006? CBS? How about peer reviewed study proving alternative....

Medicine works?

[Big Blue Marble]

83. Apparently quite a few hospitols are satisfied that these

Methods work well enough to utilize them. That may not good enough fo you.
That is not my problem.

[jeff47]

92. You mean a profit-seeking corporation will add additional treatments to your bill?

Golly, how surprising.

But I'm sure it's all about the alternative medicine, and not just charging you to fill time with a placebo while the traditional medicine does its job.

[Ms. Toad]

109. Actually - many of these are non-profit entities.

Cleveland Clinic (http://my.clevelandclinic.org/about-cleveland-clinic/overview/who-we-are/mission-vision-values.aspx )
Mayo clinic (http://www.mayoclinic.org/about/ )
Johns Hopkins (http://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/area/md/johns-hopkins-hospital-6320180/details )
Stanford (https://ogc.stanford.edu/hospital-legal-information )

Just to name the first four medical centers which I know have Integrative Medicine/Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM) departments - none of which are for-profit entities.

And - by your logic, no insurance company should be willing to pay for it. My mainstream insurance company allows approximately two visits per week of CAM.

[jeff47]

110. The practitioners are very concerned with profit, even when the hospital isn't.

And - by your logic, no insurance company should be willing to pay for it.

No, they wouldn't pay for it if they could not charge for it. The fact that your plan covers it means your insurance is charging more than a plan that doesn't cover it.

[Ms. Toad]

112. The practitioners in at least one of those facilities

draw a salary. So they are no more concerned with profit than any other salaried employee of any other not-for-profit entity.

[Marr]

105. Those "treatments" are dirt cheap.

And who knows what the hospitals get to charge for performing them.

Go to China, the birthplace of much of this woo, and you'll see healthcare split into two groups-- the people who have no money and opt for 'traditional medicine' (the only thing they can afford), and the people who have some money, who line up for western medicine.

[Big Blue Marble]

115. You do not have a clue of how integrated these services are or how much they help.

Yes they often are much less expensive and that is a bad thing how? Most of these procedures
have to be covered by the patients not insurance and people are happy to pay. Why because they
get a benefit. Who is going to pay for something very long that gives no benefit.

Health care in our country often is able to utilize the best of modern medicine and complementary
care. Whether you like it or not or believe it works or not is of little consequences.

[Marr]

117. And you do not have a scrap of scientific evidence that they are effective.

Not a scrap.

[Big Blue Marble]

118. Congratulate yourself on your deep smugness.

No, I personally do not doing in scientific research in the effectiveness of complementary or
alternative approaches to health care. Others are. In fact, I am aware of one such clinical trial
that is going very well in my home town at a major cancer center. So well in fact, they just expanded
the trial with a large additional grant. And by your definition, this one is way woo. It is amazing
that it is really helping cancer patients to have a more comfortable time of treatment. I sure you
would rather deny them this rather than admit it is really helping. On the other hand you would
argue that it must be the placebo effect at work. That would imply some kind of body-mind
wooey stuff. Oh dear what is a rationalist to do?

And if you could remove your head from whatever and do some open minded research,
you would discover that much research has been and continues to be done.
Much of it is being funded by federal grants. I am sure that grips your butt that your tax dollars
goes to fund this research. Of course you and I know you are far too closed-minded to take
an unbiased look at what is actually going on under your nose. You are having far too much
fun belittling anonymous posters on the internets and acting oh so superior.

[Marr]

119. Lots of personal insults, but no evidence.

Frankly, I don't believe your story about unnamed ongoing clinical trials that are backing up your claims. You wouldn't know about the results of a legitimate ongoing study unless you were directly involved in it.

What bothers me about people who promote medical woo is that they waste the time and energy of people who don't have time and energy to waste. And what do you know-- it often makes them money, too. How about that.

[Big Blue Marble]

120. Oh really, you accuse me of personal insults and then call me a liar.

How interesting. Perhaps your response is indicative of your inability to accept truth that varies
from your opinion. That is the kindest thing I can say about it.

I know about the study because the cancer center publicized it in the community and
online. I personally learned about it through Hospice who has also asked this practitioner to work with Hospice
patients and families.

[LanternWaste]

5. If "woo" is a belief predicated on the imaginary...

If "woo" is a belief predicated on the imaginary, and national borders (being the very accurate example of imaginary), then we must conclude that woo (religion, politics, borders and philosophy) will continue killing people in vast numbers.

However, I do realize we may often hold some "woo" to much higher standards than we do the "woo" we do embrace on a personal level (e.g. politics).

[Donald Ian Rankin]

11. You're either missing a very obvious distinction, or pretending to do so for rhetorical effect.

There's a massive difference between believing that abstract concepts have meaning (politics, borders and philosophy) and believing that the supernatural has concrete existence (religion and alternative medicine).

[kwassa]

48. How is alternative medicine supernatural?

Alternative medicine covers a lot of territory. Some might have supernatural belief behind it, much does not.

The distinction is not so obvious.

[LanternWaste]

97. The imaginary is imaginary. Politics, religion and philosophy exist no where but our own minds...

The imaginary is imaginary. Politics, religion and philosophy exist no where but our own minds... though the physical extensions we may create are often not.

yet still, if we allow ourselves to be constrained by, and an active force for one set of the imaginary yet decry the other, it seems we are doing little else other than holding one to a higher standard than the other.

The imaginary is not real... regardless of how we rationalize it otherwise.

[DanTex]

6. Are there any studies documenting the harm of "woo"?

The reason I ask is not because I believe that homeopathy, etc. works, but rather that most of the evidence I've seen of the harms of alternative medicine is anecdotal. But there is also plenty of anecdotal evidence in favor of alternative medicine.

I think a true analysis of the costs versus benefits would try to quantify, on one hand, the placebo benefits (and also possible real benefits), and on the other side, how frequently people forgo using actual medicine in favor of alternative medicine, and the total amount of harm that comes from this.

[Berlum]

8. The ONE thing we know for sure is that there are tons of studies documenting the harm of poo*

* poo = undifferentiated & abject scientific materialism

[AverageJoe90]

43. Yeah, materialism fuckin' sucks. Always has. nt

[okaawhatever]

9. I think the FDA should review claims and publish (maybe a website) what is known about

each cure. They may not need to verify the accuracy, but at least letting people know what the pros and cons are with the major claims.

[etherealtruth]

13. Quack watch

http://www.quackwatch.org/00AboutQuackwatch/new.html

[DanTex]

20. Well, ineffectiveness and harmfulness are different things.

I know there's plenty of evidence that most alternative medicines are not effective beyond placebo. But that's different than saying that they are actually net harmful to society as a whole.

[etherealtruth]

21. Really?

How do you measure harm? I view it holistically. if it causes someone to squander time ... time that could have been spent seeking effective treatment? ...time that could have been spent reconciling one self or (horribly) tending to end of life issues?

Harm from squandering precious financial resources?

Then of course is the immediate potential for physical harm.

My first career was as a hospice nurse .... I have seen it all and have absolutely no patience with woo ... its promoters or those that deny its harm.

Desperate people make desperate choices (even intelligent folk can make horrific judgements when faced with the death of one's self or a loved one).

Hoping you are never confronted with choices like this ... however, if you are I hope there is a wealth of knowledge and folk willing to tell the truth.

[DanTex]

22. All good points.

Admittedly I did not have in mind end of life or serious diseases. I was thinking more of things like people taking homeopathic medicines or acupuncture for pain, in which case, if it makes people feel better (or think they feel better), I don't see much harm, provided they don't rely on those things when they are seriously ill.

But, yes, I agree that people who peddle useless woo to desperate people, particularly those who convince ill people not to pursue actual medical treatments, should be punished.

[Berlum]

24. Whereas iatrogenesis is a proven facet of the Poo Perplex in the realm of Scientific Materialism

DEATH BY MATERIALISTIC MEDICINE is the 3rd most fatal Disease in the USA

http://www.yourmedicaldetective.com/public/335.cfm



iatrogenic illness http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/iatrogenic+illness
Any complication related to diagnosis and treatment of disease, regardless of whether the condition occurs as a known risk of a procedure or through errors of omission or commission

[SidDithers]

88. Anti-vaccine woo has convinced thousands of parents to not vaccinate their kids...

that's inherently harmful, to both the society and the kids that contract vaccine-preventable diseases.

Sid

[DanTex]

93. Yes, that another a good example.

[Paulie]

12. There is a site documenting this:

http://whatstheharm.net

[etherealtruth]

15. Woo is not harmless

At minimum it squanders precious emotional and financial resources ... at worst, stories like you posted

[stevenleser]

17. Superstition and woo can definitely be deadly.

Strep is a horrible way to go. It's bad enough when you get the right treatment and recover in what is considered prompt for that treatment.

[Berlum]

25. But not nearly as deadly as Poo*

Iatrogenesis (scientific materialist medicine, aka POO) is the 3rd most fatal cause of death.

We really need to reckon with Poo first, since STATISTICALLY it's the huge, stinking health-threatening problem.

The woo stuff is, well, only a concern of people trying to distract us from the gawdawful HORRORS OF POO.

[etherealtruth]

27. I am capable of dealing with two seperate issues

... it appears, from your post, that you are not.

Medical malfeasance and outright quackery are two separate issues. Woo (and the snake oil sales people pitching it) is very real and it is very sad that you do not understand that.

At no point would I suggest that improving medical treatment, procedures and practice should be neglected (harnessing the big money in human health would be the first place to start).

[Berlum]

33. In an obvious flame bait thread intended to dump on what is derided as 'woo'

it is entirely fair and appropriate to dish out similar treatment for 'poo' -- even if it offends your sensibilities.

It would be irresponsible to sit quietly and allow deliberate flame baiters to crap all over something they refuse to understand, and not speak up about the other side of the coin: POO - scientific materialist medicine that IS A FAR GREATER PROBLEM.

[Archae]

36. What the hell is "scientific materialism?"

Is it the *GASP* requirement that medicines be actually tested by science?

Or should I listen to my cousin's chiropractor, who does chiropractic on babies and tells the parents to give them megadoses of vitamins that he just happens to sell?

[Th1onein]

64. I think this is part of Archea's campaign to get us to accept his ideas about the safety of

genetically modified crops.

[mike_c]

32. what are the first and second most fatal causes of death...?

For that matter, what's the cause of death that's less fatal than poo? Arithmetic? Or logic?

[stevenleser]

74. Even Iatrogenesis can be scientifically addressed. Woo can't. nt

[Vashta Nerada]

29. Woo and alternative medicines are just as dangerous as prayer.

This is upsetting and it pisses me off. This senseless death could have been prevented.

[Kaleva]

47. Prayer is often used in conjunction with modern medical treatment.

Combining woo and alternative medicines with modern medications could be deadly.

[easttexaslefty]

37. Stupid op

That's not "woo"
Its derangement.

[BootinUp]

41. Its not harmless, but i fear it is

hopeless.

[longship]

42. But, but, but, What's the Harm?

Here's the harm: What's the harm.

Here's the cure: Science-based Medicine.

[Arkana]

46. What's "woo"?

[Uncle Joe]

49. "Woo" is a simplistic answer to an uproven hypothesis or theory when nothing else works.

"Woo" is in the eye of the beholder, depending on the issue.

There is true "woo" and false "woo" sometimes using the label "woo" has merit and sometimes it doesn't.

Personally I believe the use of the word "woo" is overdone.

[kwassa]

50. Woo is the way people used to court one another.

[PADemD]

53. What is woo?

Probably Complimentary and Alternative Medicine (CAM)
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/cam

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alternative-medicine/PN00001

I would never go for cancer treatment if I couldn't use CAM.

[Egalitarian Thug]

69. Woo is wonderful, woo is whatever you want it to be.

Woo is frequently defined as whatever I disagree with until somebody I have faith in says otherwise.

[kentauros]

73. "Woo" is a fake word used primarily as an insult by septics.

It's a word for a sound (onomatopoeia) supposedly emitted by ghosts. But, because septics don't believe in ghosts or anything unproven, the use of the word has the primary intent of ridicule, mockery, and belittlement.

And so, I respond in kind with the use of the actual word septic instead of "skeptic/sceptic" thanks to how close it is to those two words and it's wonderful etymological meaning

[Xyzse]

102. Thanks

I was so confused.

[kentauros]

113. You're welcome!

[Orsino]

98. Faith in quackery.

As distinguished from, say, a desperate roll of the dice on some experimental treatment.

[Warpy]

51. I don't mind much when adults kill themselves off with idiocy like this

because they help convince a lot of fence sitters that it's idiocy.

I hate it when they act out their silly beliefs on their children.

The courts usually agree with me.

[pnwmom]

57. "Woo" doesn't have a particular definition.

At one point, it was "woo" promoted by naturopath people that birth defects could be prevented by folic acid supplements. Ten or fifteen years later, it was the accepted medical position.

What is "woo" one year could be accepted medical or scientific practice ten years later.

[Archae]

60. Except this example was found out to be true by scientific study.

Not anecdotes or wishful thinking.

[Berlum]

75. So you are 'claiming' that Poo finds Woo to be untrue

About as 'trustworthy' a 'claim' as the Corporate Industrial, Inc. (R) claims for Mutant Food, and the Republicon 'claims' that President Obama was born in Kenya.

It's as if you and the Scientific Materialist Cabal 'believe' you can measure the length of a farm field using a grocery scale.

[PADemD]

66. Folic acid supplements to prevent birth defects were promoted in The Lancet.

Ten years later, ACOG and the March of Dimes started recommending the same thing.

[D23MIURG23]

81. "Holistic"

Because killing the strep infection off with amoxicillin wouldn't be "treating the whole child" or something. Its sad seeing people do this to themselves, but even worse when its an incompetent parent doing it to their child.

[quinnox]

86. I don't have much faith in big drug companies

When I hear their commercials and they always have to list all these horrid possible side effects to their so called medicines, and it sounds sometimes like the medicine might be worse than the ailment it is supposed to treat. And then I also think it is very convenient in terms of money making and profits that a lot of these drugs you have to take them for the rest of your life. No thank you.

[SidDithers]

87. DU rec...

and here's a classic DU thread that should be revisited once in a while, when someone starts spouting about "scientific materialism"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002128567

Sid

[SidDithers]

89. I posted about the horrific case of Alex Spourdalakis some time ago...

but it bears repeating when DU anti-science brigade goes on another of their 'woo is great!!' kicks.

Orac, who is a real cancer doctor and researcher, has posted about the case extensively at his Respectful Insolence blog at scienceblogs.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/06/14/autism-biomed-and-murder-of-alex-spourdalakis/

Convinced that Alex Spourdalakis’ severe autism was growing worse, his mother and caregiver allegedly planned for at least a week to kill the River Grove teenager and themselves.

But the alleged murder plot initially went awry last weekend when the stocky 14-year-old didn’t succumb to an overdose of his prescription medications.

After waiting for several hours, Dorothy Spourdalakis, fatally stabbed her 225-pound son four times with a kitchen knife, then cut his wrist so deeply she nearly severed his hand, Cook County prosecutors said Wednesday.

His caregiver, Jolanta Agata Skrodzka, later stabbed the family cat with the same knife, then washed the utensil and put it back in a butcher’s block, prosecutors said.

Their suicide pact never succeeded: Both women took drug overdoses, then locked themselves in the bedroom with the slain teenager.

They were found semi-conscious inside the second-floor apartment on Sunday afternoon when Alex’s father and uncle came to check on the teen, prosecutors said as the women appeared in court to face first-degree murder charges.

This is where woo and lack of critical thinking can lead. And that's why woo is dangerous.

Sid

[Archae]

90. Lack of critical thinking, yes. Woo, no.

It was murder suicide, that didn't go right.

Some people just can't handle a mentally ill child.

[SidDithers]

91. They had been "treating" the autistic child with all kinds of woo...

Woo peddlers had convinced the boy's mother that his autism could be cured. When that obviously didn't happen, the mother and caregiver thought the kid would be better off dead.

Here's Andrew-Fucking-Wakefield visiting with the family and Alex.

Without woo, this kid might still be alive.

Sid

[Archae]

94. Oh cripes...

I didn't know about that.

I noticed the kid was rather big, and was restrained.

The caregivers were convicted of murder, I hope.

[SidDithers]

96. As far as I can tell, they're still awaiting trial...nt

Sid

[KamaAina]

95. Steve Jobs tried to treat his cancer with woo

Bzzzzzzzzt!

[Xyzse]

101. Edit - nevermind

Someone else asked the question.

[L0oniX]

103. RICK FLARE's WOO was the shitz!

[Marr]

106. I almost went deaf in one ear because of woo.

I got a bad ear infection when I was a kid, and a family member insisted on "treating" it with an herb they'd grown, which their native american friend insisted would cure any infection.

Two weeks of searing pain later, I was at the doctor, who fixed the problem in literally 2 hours with some antibiotics, and told my parents I would've soon lost hearing in that ear forever.

[riderinthestorm]

116. I keep forgetting is cannabis "woo" or not? When did it go off the "woo" list?

How about willowbark? (aspirin)

Or snake venom? (botox)

etc etc.

Sometimes things are "woo" until they're not. Sometimes things are proven to be woo by science and then that is settled but I think its unfair to people who have gotten relief from some of these alternative medicines to condemn them all as woo. Sometimes things interact with a person's body chemistry differently than another person's.

Full disclosure - the only alternative medicine I've ever participated in/taken was acupuncture. While pregnant with my second, I was literally throwing up 40 - 50 times/day. Even the MD's couldn't get it under control. During my first acupuncture session, which lasted 4 hours I didn't throw up once - a miracle. Within 2 weeks of regular sessions I was down to throwing up less than 5 times/day and stayed that way for the rest of the pregnancy which finally allowed me/her to gain weight. Tried it again for my asthma and the acupuncturist told me "no dice" and to keep doing what my MD told me to do as that was the most effective treatment.