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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forumsover one third of men would never help a woman struggling with a baby buggy on stairs
Over a third of the 5,000 men surveyed said they would never help a woman struggling to carry a buggy up or down stairs, for fear of offending the mother
Is chivalry officially dead? Men unlikely to offer women seats or help with buggies due to fear of offending
Only one in seven men will offer their seat to a woman on a train or bus
Over a third say they never assist mothers struggling with heavy prams
But only 7% of women view chivalrous acts as patronising
Three in five men appreciate women holding doors open for them
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2516858/Is-chivalry-officially-dead-Men-unlikely-offer-women-seats-help-buggies-fear-offending--WANT-to.html
It's official. Chivalry is dead.
These days men profess to being so worried about offending women and being accused of being patronising they are becoming reluctant to offer the so-called 'fairer sex' seats on public transport, to hold open doors and to help mothers carrying buggies up and down stairs.
Only one in seven men will offer their seat to a woman on a train or bus, and over a third say they never assist mothers struggling with heavy prams, according to research.
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Bonobo
(29,257 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)because that sounds like your take on things. no one should assume anyone wants to be helped or handled, without being asked first. and yeah, that means some will say no. deal with it.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)smiling at them and receiving a scowl or a smirk.
Can't blame them but there is a way to get over it.
Models by mark Manson is a good start, guys.
JI7
(93,616 posts)and so do women . they don't get offended if i say i don't need any help.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)that someone who actually needs help (that they are not trying to impress) will turn it down.
Thanks for being honest enough to admit that these reactions don't come from people who want to "help" anyone but themselves. It is what it is.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Whether intended or not to be a pickup, men can and are often viewed as threatening, creepy or other.
Eventually it becomes wise to just avoid potential problems.
As for me, I live in a country with a smaller proportion of -let's just say - "over the top" people so it is not a problem.
I help all sorts of people in situations like that. I ask. They answer. No problems.
Sometimes you have to look in the mirror to see the problem, bettyellen.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)it's not "helping" anyone but the helper and the person I responded to acknowledged that those situations cause the anxiety.
To confuse that with genuinely helping people * with no expectations* is crap, and I bet you know that.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)When I'm at the lumberyard struggling to load something heavy and awkward, I'm surprised at how often guys stop to help. I'm pretty confident that I'm not pick-up-worthy.
If I hold a door for a guy, they say "thanks" nearly 100% of the time.
I find the last couple of posts revealing. Paraphrased; Those selfish bastards never ask if I need help, but if they do, I say no thanks because they're just trying to pick me up.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Not sure how you missed that?
BTW, I have bought a lot of lumber, and the workers generally load the car up for everyone. Not sure how that is relevant. I help lots of people too, and they rarely get annoyed, but then again I ask first if they want it. Because that is courteous, assuming shit about strangers is not.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)a) guys don't help when I need it because they are selfish
b) it annoys me when they offer to help when I don't *really* need it.
What's obvious to you isn't always obvious to the average guy, and it's unsurprising that some of them would avoid offering help when there's a good risk that they'll be seen as category "b".
FWIW, I don't recall my wife ever complaining about annoying unwanted offers of help. Perhaps some of them are flirting, but I think her attitude about that is so what? - it's part of the human condition.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)you do not believe that *sometimes* guys do this *solely* to get a woman's attention, and that sometimes that attention is unwelcome? many men -even here- freely admit they do, many women say it's kind of creepy. Not sure how this has anything to do with your wife.
If I need help, I ask for it. It's not as complicated as some make it out to be. Hearing "No thanks" should not be traumatic.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Until then, I won't hear "no thanks" because I won't offer. It takes fewer calories for me to not risk being considered creepy. Given the choice between "petty jerk" (which requires zero effort) and "creepy" (which requires both effort and making ones self vulnerable to a highly personal insult), I choose "petty jerk".
I think it takes a remarkable sense of self-worth to believe that most guys offering help are a) doing so in hopes of getting in your pants, and b) "As if! Eww!"
The guy struggling with the same couch/sheet of plywood/door/stroller? I have little reason to believe that he'll think of me as creepy, which may tip the scales on whether it's worth expending the effort.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)that was a pretty fucked up assumption to make about me. Sad to hear that from you.
the repeated strange experience of guys jumping in to open doors when you have two hands free, then following you- trying to chat you up, find out where you work, etc... even us pretty girls figure out it is just a ploy. and we prefer to spend time with people who don't need scams or tactics. I think a lot of the anger is that he little scam is exposed, it's embarrassing. As it should be.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)....because I'd probably just nod at you and continue on my way while you stood there waiting for me to hit on you, offended. I mean, if that's how that's supposed to work in your world or something.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Wow, that is a really foolish, and fairly ceepy thing to say. "She wanted it, yuk yuk."
Is that how it works in "your world"?
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)....and if it bears out that they don't follow through on that expectation, what then?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and expect you to be grateful for "help" you didn't need or want. So, gas lighting now- you think I imagined it all- or secretly want it. I'm so conceited, maybe I deserve it too! LOL.
That's so very MRA, I want to puke. Get help, dude- YOU are the one imagining shit.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)It's the new Godwin.
Have a nice day.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)assuming you know any. and she will likely want to puke to.
woolldog
(8,791 posts)if they are using it to try and break the ice, I don't see the big deal either way. 
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I do believe they exaggerate for effect.
But yeah- it's an outrage- women asserting their right to say NO. HA.
frustrated_lefty
(2,774 posts)to actually ask for it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)also, help to deal with the trauma of being told "No thank you".
frustrated_lefty
(2,774 posts)I'm fully capable of ignoring some daft wench if she's incapable of accepting a certain amount of personal responsibility.
Ta-ta.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Own it, Mr. Personal Responsibility.
leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)no to my offer of help. i wont help because i feel they are feeling insulted. if you are a woman and you need help open your mouth and ask for it other wise i would think you have it under control.
i used to not think twice about offering but it's b/c of what i've read here that i no longer do, i dont say bless u when women sneeze, i dont hold doors i have even stopped hugging friends unless they make the move to hug first. untill d.u. i didnt realize what a pig ive been.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Who dinged you for "Bless you!" though- that sounds SO TRAUMATIC, you must share the details.
OMG, your life has been so negatively impacted by being thoughtful. You don't get to thoughtlessly do and say whatever you want now. How awful.
leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)are offended b/c they have no belief or a hatred toward religion - so now i dont say it.
"You don't get to thoughtlessly do and say whatever you want now. How awful. " Llike i said i didnt realized what pig i was for saying bless you and holding doors and saying hi, you know, speaking to a woman with out her saying i could speak to her, that kind of pig.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)hopefully, you will get used to the idea.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)has decided they speak for all women. I understand it has created a wrong impression as MOST female DUers do not generally agree with them on issues like this. But most women here also tend to avoid the Women's groups here due to the demand that all women agree with them.
As the article says, in the Real World, a majority of women are grateful when a man offers to help them or opens a door for them. Most women are strong enough not to feel threatened by a gesture of kindness.
I think the article stated that only 7% of women feel insulted by kind gestures.
And even if a man is offering in order to strike up a conversation with a woman he finds attractive, that too is okay with most women who generally are capable of handling the situation, in some cases they may welcome the attention, in others maybe not but either way we women are not the delicate flowers some women claim us to be and I for one do NOT want them speaking for me.
I am sure this comment will be attacked, I have been told eg, that 'you are a descended of the destroyers of women' lol! One of the more colorful and to me, hilarious attacks for not allowing them to speak for me.
I'm sorry that your DU experience has caused you to think most women are so weak they can't even handle a kind gesture. It isn't true. Maybe it's the fault of the rest of us women here that we don't generally engage in those discussions, but it is just too exhausting to be honest.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)not sure where you got that one from. saying no thanks, I have it covered is never a sign of weakness. That is bizarre.
kcr
(15,522 posts)And you know this how? But I do think a lot of female DUers have left DU in disgust, so I can see how that might give that impression.
Logical
(22,457 posts)
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)raised to be a gentleman. Women have never not appreciated it. I hold doors and help people myself and I'm an old lady. Good manners and concern for others is not sexist or any of that other bullshit. Its kindness and should be viewed that way.
I had a feeling this thread would be epic.
MattBaggins
(7,948 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)kcr
(15,522 posts)
TBF
(36,669 posts)Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Aren't welcome in hof, but thankfully that mode of thought is not common. My girlfriend loves the way I open doors and pull out chairs. I was the first to do that
There were threads on it....it was the obsession for a while...opening doors or holding open.
kcr
(15,522 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)discussing a concept. You read a bunch of bullshit.
BainsBane
(57,757 posts)but will continue to fabricate crap anyway. If it encourages opposition to feminism, they don't care if it's true or not. Plus, it gives them a handy excuse for not helping anyone. That, however, has nothing to do with feminism but rather who they are as people. Men push baby carriages too, and women help both men and women in those situations.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)And hold doors open...... men with manners
BainsBane
(57,757 posts)And "real men" (your term, not mine) don't make up bullshit to put down feminists.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Does not mean it does not exist.
I open doors for women all the time. It's the manly thing to do.
Iris
(16,872 posts)yet no one had ever suggested I'm manly.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)the face of anyone, male or female. And I find it absolutely disgusting when I see men or women sitting down, allowing a pregnant woman or disabled woman (or man) to stand on a train. Abhorrent behavior!
treestar
(82,383 posts)Oh and does that include old women?
Soundman
(297 posts)Little off topic I know but that is a lot of posting.
boston bean
(36,931 posts)there is a male poster who's been here under 2 years with 23K posts, who is posting in this thread. Ask him too, why doncha?
Response to boston bean (Reply #152)
Soundman This message was self-deleted by its author.
BainsBane
(57,757 posts)Soundman
(297 posts)BainsBane
(57,757 posts)I assumed you could count. My mistake. Here's how it works. You make one post, then another, then a third, and over time it builds up until you have 20,000, which comes right after 19,999.
Next week on Sesame Street: the alphabet.
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)Welcome to DU and the fray!
Soundman
(297 posts)I don't usually post a lot, but I do lurk a lot 😜. D.U. Has been a regular news stop for me since the beginning.
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)my low post count fool you. I changed names and was penalized my gazillion post count and here I am a mere year later with only a measly few thousand. 
Du is the greatest news source that I have found. Of course we only repost what we have found and so get busy and find us some news! 
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)It's just fun after a while.
Welcome aboard!
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)that's why.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)CANDO
(2,068 posts)Some folks been here for years and just enjoy reading. I joined in 02 and I'm here every day. I usually find my thoughts on any particular thread have already been expressed by another poster, so to me, there's no reason to be redundant.
Soundman
(297 posts)I originally signed up here when I first discovered the link at Bartcop (he considers me a pillar) years and years ago. Like you, I have found that someone usually mirrors my opinion on subjects so I have spent most of my time in the gutter fighting the good fight against the neocons on message boards across the lands. Funny though, it's like I finally have backed off the endless (and fruitless) battle only to see the very people I thought were on the same team are now seemingly hell bent on alienating the very people that have had their back for years. There are at least a dozen trolls that seem to have a free pass here these days. I don't get it. It is one thing to disagree on various things, and even to argue passionately. But the down right hostility that some posters display is ugly. It is almost as if right wing trolls have made their way into a certain group here and have made a Parody out of it.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)a little old lady. I'd say 99.99999% of people don't mind a door being held open for them.
rudolph the red
(666 posts)I don't get where the controversy comes in, it's just common courtesy.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)is really going on- an outsized sense of entitlement, or they are pissed that the person caught on that it was a just a ploy to get in their face. I have only reacted negatively- with a mild WTF expression, when it was obvious I did not need help, yet it's there grinning and chatting and following me long after the doorway has been walked through.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I know I do too. Somehow we manage to get over it, LOL. Those that hold on to that anger frighten me.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Actually, real people (rather than specifically males) help those in need (regardless of gender) as kindness for its own sake, rather than focusing on self-validating acts of symbolism offered offered only to the opposite gender of "my girlfriend".
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)
RainDog
(28,784 posts)but another notes that feminists have engaged in plenty of insults themselves toward males and females here who disagree with them - simply because they disagree.
I see a lot a people here who claim to be feminist who seem to engage in a lot of "shame-based" thinking.
Most of the women who talk about this issue operate from this pov and, by doing so, they easily fall into blame, shame, and insults.
I think some of these women have been abused in various ways, by their own admission, and their own psychological issues come into play when they try to discuss issues here - and they project these on to others.
In addition, these same women have a long association with anti-GBLT issues, whether they share that pov or not, and this past is considered when they discuss issues with members of that community here. As I recall, at one point, some of them did not want transgender (men to women) to be allowed to post in some forums because they weren't born with certain equipment, etc.
So these discussions don't take place in a vacuum. There's a long history of attacks on both sides, current attacks, as well, and, when reading the threads, it's obvious many of these dynamics are still played out - which is why I mostly try to avoid it all, but occasionally read and participate.
I would prefer to see some compassion all around, but those who have operated from this shame-based place in their own minds have to address their own failures to communicate effectively and have to admit that others may have a pov they don't like based on valid reasoning.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)those here who are discussing it. So, not so helpful here.
okay. I was responding to your false claim.
have a great day!
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)RainDog
(28,784 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)And they cannot for the life of them understand why some women do. They may feel this way for legitimate reasons, but there is no need for them to project these feelings onto others.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)nt
BainsBane
(57,757 posts)we see frequent evidence of it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)BainsBane
(57,757 posts) AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)All types of people exist.
BainsBane
(57,757 posts)Not by HOF members. But don't let facts get in the way of bullshit.
MattBaggins
(7,948 posts)BS is getting thick in here.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)so they want to be thanked profusely 100% of the time or they will be jerks to everyone, LOL.
Guess what- that means they already ARE jerks.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)kcr
(15,522 posts)That's what the article would have you believe, based on the premise.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I suggested they learn to:
1) ask nicely if someone needs help
2) take no for an answer, and take it without insult. (in other words, grow the fuck up)
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I never seen a guy get upset over not being able to help.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)need help. Basically, it's only annoying when you didn't need any help and a guy does it with a flourish, expecting gratitude and attention. Because, who is kidding who- they did it because they wanted attention, not because of you needing anything. It's manipulative, and a weird position to be put in. Unless you are instantly attracted to the person, it's doubtful it will get them anywhere, but some feel it should. No one should be put out by a "no thanks" but some can get really angry- just as they often do when you decline a drink or a sudden interruption in the conversation you are having with your girlfriend.
When people really do need a hand, the overwhelming majority are grateful if you offer it.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Plus the trains here are two stories down and people with baby carriages are usually happy they can get the help.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And you seem to be, so you are not even aware that others just do this for their own ego or as a ploy. And get angry when it doesn't play out as expected.
If someone needs help - you offer before laying a hand near them, I bet. Some, jump in with the hands, and then expect gratitude. Ooops. Some people need their space! Some would say no thanks- and that should be okay.
If you see an attractive individual going about their business, do you pretend they need help and open the door with a flourish- and the intent to force a conversation on them? I doubt it, but it happens all the time. I think you begin as you intend to go, and that stuff can feel a bit manipulative. I have had total strangers follow me for blocks or do some out there things just to get attention- it can be very strange knowing they get so invested in someone they do not know at all based on looks. It is pretty immature, but also imposing and downright creepy, to be honest.
A smile and saying Hi is better. I don't know where people learn this behavior- stupid chick flicks? No idea.
Anyway, I think you're a swell Duer and wanted to explain why this sort of stuff can be unwelcome sometimes.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)since the topic is part of the entitlement thing, the attempts to shame and silence me instead of converse were totally expected. but I know you better than that.
And you made me realize this open door thing gets discussed all the time with no one acknowledging or actually explaining the rarer times when it really IS annoying. The issue is a red flag guys who hate feminists wave, to prove how downtrodden they are, I do not have a lot of sympathy to spare their bruised egos.
See how angry my lack of pity has made them here- it's really something- isn't it?
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)As Gavin de Becker describes in his book, 'The Gift of Fear', this is a very common technique used by predators. They help you with something, like carrying your groceries, usually without you asking for help, in order to create a debt of gratitude. It's called gift sharking.
In other words, this is a case of jerks ruining it for other men - if, and I emphasize IF, these other men have a problem with asking if people need help and accepting a no if that is the answer. If people (and it's usually men) do have a problem asking before helping and accepting a no, then they are jerks too.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Probably a dozen, over the years. And these guys arguing how these are niceties have never suffered through that creepy shit once. Yet they'd love to tell me how nice I should be, and keep up this facade it's all about being helpful. It's bullshit. A few guys ruin it for everyone- and those are the ones that are angry.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Go back and read what you have written in this thread and how you have written it. Such venom..how about you take your own advice, eh?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and growing the fuck up is part of the solution. Giving up that entitled attitude would be the mature thing to do.
Good luck to any ass who holds a grudge over such things. And good luck to you too.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)entitlement being crushed for a fleeting moment? I guess if you acted that kind of fool toward me, you'd see some attitude alright, otherwise no.
I help men and women with their stuff all the time- after asking if they want it- and all that without waiting for pats on the heads or getting to know them well at all. LOL, I just go on my merry way, expecting nothing. It's not so very hard. Why is it for the men in this stupid OP? They are scared of what exactly? It is ridiculous.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)He's NOT going to help you, so don't ask.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Smell like 1952 in here, seriously.
BainsBane
(57,757 posts)However will she survive. 
Just goes to show you can be just as grateful that some don't help.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)opinions on a message board without anger and venom ARE oh so mature...LOL...truth/fiction and all that..
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Hope that helps clear things up for ya!
pipoman
(16,038 posts)who's angry and venomous to most people who are reading this thread..
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)get any serious interest around here. Regressive, childish attitudes. And I'd be a little concerned my fellow progressives are playing the "scared of angry women" card, LOL. But, it sounds like you're playing with a full deck of them.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)
Scout
(8,625 posts)and it ain't bettyellen.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)And also perfectly clear who is disingenuous and acting out in a most petulant manner.
(Insert rationalization here...)
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)It appears to be a fairly narrow window.
Guys are less complicated. If you hold the door for them, they take this fairly rudimentary act of politeness at face value and generally just say thanks.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)if they cannot tell the difference or just simply ask- if help is genuinely needed, then they should stop bugging strangers. if a stranger saying no bothers them so very much, they need professional help. that is not healthy, normal behavior.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)When I was younger and of average looks and below-average confidence and social skill, being rebuffed by someone apparently in need of help "who looked at me as if I were a dish that she hadn't ordered" colored my subsequent attitudes.
Won't do that again. There's nothing to be gained by giving people opportunities to score my social fitness.
Now that I'm older, have better confidence and look harmless, I doubt that my offers of help would be as often misinterpreted, but the flipside of acquired confidence is a sense of "why bother?".
I avoid situations which give people the power to make me feel bad. I'd prefer strangers think of me as a selfish jerk than creepy. There's too much work and psychic risk involved for too little reward in finding the middle way.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)needs and comfort levels around accepting help. Some women, just like men, really need to take care of things themselves. Some have had bad experiences or are just really shy. Some have had a lot of harassment. It is, for the most part, not about you. They are just going on with their lives YOU are making it about YOU.
Anyway, I am out of this convo with you, I had enough after that nasty crack accusing me of being conceited. That was pretty slimy bit of gas lighting hostile crap.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Hence why sometimes a door hold is just a door hold.
wickerwoman
(5,662 posts)This is the most ridiculous anti-feminist bullshit argument of all time.
It's so not complicated.
If you see a person struggling with something, ask if they need help regardless of what kind of genitals either of you have. If they say yes, help. If they say no, mind your business.
Why is that difficult?
Don't rip things out of other peoples' hands and then stand around waiting for a thank you.
Don't ignore someone struggling with something because "feminists" told you they would be offended.
It's not chivalry. It's basic manners. You don't get to use feminism as an excuse not to have them.
kcr
(15,522 posts)using their hatred of feminism as an excuse for the fact they're already lazy jerks who probably wouldn't help anyone anyway.
MattBaggins
(7,948 posts)That are so fucking stupid, they want to whine and cry that they can't figure out how to operate in a modern world. They are too dumb to understand the difference between holding the door for other people in general or giving up their seats to other people in need regardless of what genitalia they happen to possess. Most of us men have no problem with helping both men and women struggling with a stroller and don't whine and cry about confusion. We also have graduated beyond the stupid notion that women need a man to help them in a task as simple as sitting in a chair.
Just a bunch of whiny brats unable to adapt to what are pretty much common sense changes.
They will hoot and holler at this topic though. It's so confusing donchaknow?
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)and you project a lot of anger and concern over what other people choose to do with their lives. Why are you so invested in what others choose to do? You can't control what others choose to do so accept that reality.
MattBaggins
(7,948 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)If I choose to open doors for women, then I will. I like doing it and usually they like it too. Ever heard of hormones? Testosterone makes men manly and estrogen makes women feminine. It's science!
JI7
(93,616 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)nt
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Thanks for the laugh!
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Hormones are funny things.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"...and usually they like it too."
I used to pretend the same to myself, too-- all the better for self-validation, and to rationalize effortless symbolism as something Rather Important.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)lol
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Sometimes they don't. The issue is when they don't want the attention and men get offended if they say "no thanks."
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)feeling slighted by what you imagine you are entitled to makes grousing about it on the net attractive to them. Perhaps because it RL, people would laugh in their faces?
That's very aggressive and rude.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)respecting other people's boundaries. And they should grow the hell up, and chill out.
Why- do you think they actually have a legitimate complaint- they should never have to hear the word NO? They should cower in fear over this- or should they get over it? What is your take on them?
Marr
(20,317 posts)As for whether they should feel offended if they're receive a "no" after asking a woman if she needs help... honestly, it depends on how that "no" is delivered. If it's said brusquely then sure, I can see taking offense-- just as you'd take offense at anything stated brusquely.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)aren't pissed at being lumped in with these entitled jerks. They are the minority, and they are sad cases.
Actually, I don't get offended by strangers too often at all. I don't expect anything at all from people I do not know- why would I do that?
boston bean
(36,931 posts)You comparing a feminist who is "mixed race" to a klansman
That was aggressive and rude.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3984269
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3984288
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)i ask for, and give help to people all the time. often people decline my help, and I am not so egotistical to imagine it has much significance at all or there is any reason at all to feel hurt. Imagine that!
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)woman should simply ask for help, rather than saying that men are cads because they do not offer it freely every time...?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)that they are genuinely upset when they don't get that payoff, that they will not bother anymore. Or will punsh the rest of womenkind by being withholding. Lovely.
If you are going around "helping" hot girls who do not need any help- instead of average people who actually do need help-- you will get more negative reactions. Protestations here aside- it is fairly easy to see the difference. Women get pretty familiar, and tired of such ploys, and tired of being expected to express gratitude and good will for no good reason.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)or while expressing a genuine desire to help a woman that they can't bring themselves to do it any more. Not me, I don't give a fuck and will always help anybody. I find overreacting women to be quite funny, lol. But some men have been hurt very badly by women and as a man I can understand where they are coming from.
But really, I hate to say this but I find American women to be particularly aggressive and overly masculinized for the most part. I appreciate women who can express their femininity freely, and don't try to compete with men as a male. And I think you're right that American men have become overly feminized and emotional, and need to understand that women are often overly emotional too, and can fly off the handle just at the subtext being expressed in an interaction (such as when a man might want to help but does find the woman attractive).
But I'm glad that you understand that if a woman needs help from a man, she need just ask
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)are a bit too invested in the payoff- their own egos, rather than helping the other person. A bit too invested in getting a payoff. If you recognize that a person is doing it for attention and not to actually help you, they are putting you in a manipulative situation- and that can be creepy. Usually these are the ones so wrapped up in themselves they jump in without asking, and are suddenly in your face chatting away as if you owe them that.
It's a totally different thing than the perils of helping a stranger who genuinely needs it. I don't hear a lot of women complaining about the reactions they get. Perhaps because it is not a game we generally play to meet men, so no one questions our motives?
When you are a pretty young thing- these *completely unneeded and often unwelcome* gestures accompanied by the expectation of gratitude are sometimes actually frightening in a stalky way. Demuring politely does not deter them. Shit can get scary. Yet people act like the worlds at your feet for getting unwelcome attention, it's bizarre.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)But give up my seat? Only for an elderly person.
MattBaggins
(7,948 posts)Xithras
(16,191 posts)But there is no reason why a perfectly healthy person of any race or gender should expect (or be offered) preferential treatment for no reason other THAN their race or gender.
I'm courteous to those in need. But I'm not going to subject myself to discomfort simply to perpetuate archaic gender stereotypes. If I wouldn't give my seat up to a perfectly healthy man, why would I give it up to a perfectly healthy woman?
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Course, holding a door or giving your seat to someone doing fine without your involvement can be a way to flirt.
Women can flirt that way with a man, as well as a man can with a woman. Equally useful for flirting with someone of the same sex, too.
And if you get a refusal, or don't get florid exclamations of deeeeeep gratitude? You move along and take it like a ...
............... Grown-Up
Demobrat
(10,299 posts)Where I find myself opening and holding doers for delivery people and others with their hands full all the time. Nobody's ever gotten offended, but maybe that's because I have breasts.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)idea that they can do this to generate gratitude or interest on your part. It doesn't occur to them that it's difficult to be genuinely grateful for a strange gesture that you didn't need or want. At best, it comes off as some strange, outmoded thing they latched onto to get in your face- manipulative. Why not be normal and just smile and say hello?
Demobrat
(10,299 posts)Just the other day I had a man open the door as I approached. I smiled and thanked him as I went through, then he followed me onto the elevator and made a comment about how old-fashioned courtesy came in handy when he wanted to stalk a woman. Ha ha ha. But normally my perception of people who open doors is that is that their mamas raised them right. Nothing wrong with good manners.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)It happens, and can be very very creepy.
Demobrat
(10,299 posts)But I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt, since I'm one who opens doors out of habit.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)to get in your face. I also don't see women getting angry when they can't get a man's attention. Depressed, but not usually angry. Some guys get hella angry very quickly when you refuse to give them attention.
Demobrat
(10,299 posts)because I didn't respond when they tried to talk to me. Very scary. I carry mace but even that doesn't really make me feel safer. Lotta angry men out there.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Really nasty stuff. Yet, sometimes I say sure and chat with strangers anyway and it's fine. But I don't regret saying no, I have every right to. And the large percentage that handle a polite "No thank you" with rabid anger only prove I have excellent judgement about it.
Demobrat
(10,299 posts)Because when you try to cut it short they really go nuts. I had a guy go off on me on the subway because i responded to a question politely and then turned away from him to go back to my book. I learned a long time ago NEVER to accept a drink from a stranger. Never never never.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Not at women who say No thanks.
No one has a right to expect we behave like little Ms Sunshine to whoever chooses to be "nice" to us.
Have you read any of Captain Awkward's blog? Great stuff for young women about using your words, and trusting your feelings. There's a lot about how society expects women to always be nice, and how very uncomfortable or dangerous that expectation can be around the wrong people. Good stuff!
Demobrat
(10,299 posts)Lotsa fun. Thanks.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)
City Lights
(25,830 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)the help.
I usually stand on crowded trains because I hate being sandwiched between people.
MattBaggins
(7,948 posts)I ask other people.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)MattBaggins
(7,948 posts)But only on stupid subjects or clear bullshit.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)But I never understand these threads about people never helping others because they are afraid of a no answer.
I see people help people all the time.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)we're genuinely less afraid to pitch in, and accept all "types" without needing them to fit our molds. which to me, is a whole lot nicer than all the phony treacle.
petronius
(26,696 posts)always found that NYers are more helpful and friendly in general than other cities I've been to. They're just not particularly patient with asshattery or dilly-dallying: if you stop in the middle of the sidewalk or screw around on the subway platform you're going to get elbowed, and if you ask a question or for directions you'd better be focused and listening to the answer. But you will get a helpful answer. It's an unfair reputation, really...
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Testosterone is a wonderful thing. don't fight it.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)The failure of men to offer their seats to women has to be the most trivial problem facing society this side of the war on Christmas.
MattBaggins
(7,948 posts)I will give it up to others that clearly need a seat but don't use what sex organ they have as the determining factor.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)TBF
(36,669 posts)and as a middle aged woman with arthritis I do a fair amount of walking/sitting/standing each day - I mix it up because too long in any position is the thing that actually hurts. I find that I feel better when I keep moving, but then I'm still under 50 and have good meds.
I'd offer up my own seat if it is an elderly person (male or female) or an adult with an infant (again, male or female). Also teaching my kids (1 male, 1 female) to open a door for someone if they are holding a bag, using a walker, etc. Being "chivalrous" is unnecessary but it is good to be a decent person.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Scout
(8,625 posts)a man's inclination to protect a woman from every man but himself.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Aren't women just as capable at standing as men?
I don't get that argument.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It was killed by the longbow and the clothyard arrow at Agincourt in 1415 although the death throes continued for a while after.
polly7
(20,582 posts)I think most people, men and women, really want to help and do feel empathy for someone they see who's struggling ... it's just part of being human. I find it sad that people are more and more being afraid to even ask, for fear of offending someone. Being told 'no thanks' doesn't hurt at all. Not offering would bother me a lot more.
marshall
(6,706 posts)That term is used in "The World According to Garp" to describe a person who does not want to be perceived as a threat because of some visible factor. It's why very few me are kindergarten teachers, why teenage boys are rarely baby sitters, and why a stay at home father may be looked at derisively.
A male friend of mine was a first grade teacher back in the 90s. Every other teacher (who were all female) were allowed to assist both boys and girls who needed help in the bathroom, which didn't happen often but did occur from time to time. He alone as singled out and told he was not allowed to be alone with a child of either gender in the bathroom. If any of his students needed assistance he had to call one of his female colleagues and ask her to help.
In the words of John Irving, he was a sexual suspect. The children were being taught that women are safe, men are suspect.
A similar study to this looked at who was more likely to approach a crying child. Women were far more likely than men to offer help to a child in public. Likely that is because they are afraid of being profiled as a sexual suspect.
flamingdem
(40,891 posts)neighborhood to see that men don't stop to let women cross the street.
Chivalry is long gone in the younger generation.
wickerwoman
(5,662 posts)a third of men are such flaming assholes they'll proudly admit they don't help people and then pretend it's a political statement. At least another third and probably significantly more, wouldn't offer to help but are at least enough aware that that makes them an asshole that they'll lie about it when asked.
I take the bus almost every day and literally can't recall the last time I saw a person under 30 give up one of the front seats to an elderly person.
MattBaggins
(7,948 posts)Common courtesy on the other hand needs to be taught in schools.
leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)
Hassin Bin Sober
(27,461 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(27,461 posts)ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(27,461 posts)
flvegan
(66,280 posts)It's like Fox fucking news around here.
Yes, chivalry is dead. You've asked 5,000 men. Someone turn out the lights and lock up. Stupid took over.
Silent3
(15,909 posts)Perhaps you can argue that the sampling wasn't done well, that it was biased or the math was bad or something else about the survey was faulty, but if you simply reflexively dismiss anything based on 5000 people as if it could never have any significance because in your mind 5000 is always too few people to survey, you might have to reconsider what territory stupid is laying claim to.
Jimbo S
(3,043 posts)Able to get a margin of error to a few points.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)even for offering help, so most men don't bother.
That is the new normal my generation and younger generations have grown to accept. Times change.
MattBaggins
(7,948 posts)kcr
(15,522 posts)simply because they helped someone with a baby carriage or held open a door.
Anyone who thinks that is a moron.
JI7
(93,616 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)Men who get accused of sexual harassment for helping really get accused of sexual harassment for using helping as a lead-in to sexually harass.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Soon as I saw that I was prepared to be bowled over by their pressing relevance to cultural issues in the USA, even before I saw the word "pram".
Short answer, yes, I would help a mom - OR a dad, I was often enough that guy - with one on the stairs. But they really belong in an elevator, mostly.
And I wonder how many people; not just men- would hesitate because they're not comfortable with the idea of "jesus, I really wouldn't want to drop someone's baby"
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)Here's 2 men and a murderer helping women with carriages.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)One of the most famous- and oft referred to- sequences in film history
Among the many movies that have referenced it, Terry Gilliam's "Brazil" is one of the best.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)I take public transportation all the time, and its true.
And one time I saw a woman who was having trouble with an armful of stuff and was struggling to open a main entrance door to an office building. I was in the building approaching the door from the other side, I just looked at her, and didn't rush to help, because I was hesitant that she would not want me to. But then she gave me a look, and the look said - "What the hell, why aren't you helping me?? Can't you see me struggling?"
I immediately went over and opened the door for her after I saw that look.
JI7
(93,616 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)but the door was between us, I was on the inside, she was on the outside, it was a glass door, so it wasn't a natural situation to speak with that obstacle between us. That is why she used her face expression to indicate to me what she wanted.
JI7
(93,616 posts)that is something that happens a lot and usually the person inside will just open the door if they see someone is trying to get in and unable to do so for whatever reason .
quinnox
(20,600 posts)I was approaching the door, about 10-15 feet away. I hesitated to watch her at that point, and then when I saw the look she gave me, I rushed to the door to open it.
BainsBane
(57,757 posts)It's not chivalry. It's basic human decency. I always help in these kinds of situations.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Just because men are physically stronger doesn't mean women shouldn't jump in when necessary.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)It doesn't matter to me whether they are male or female,old or young. If they are having a harder time then I am, I help them out. I think that is just the decent thing to do.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 3, 2013, 04:19 AM - Edit history (1)
Those who wanted to lend a hand (I was very strong for my size) in a brotherly way, were welcome. Those who felt NO woman should be allowed the job, no matter how qualified, didn't help, but they did attempt to paw me more than once. No loss there.
Off work I always took care of myself, as a learned response, necessary to prove my abilities. I've always opened doors for everyone. And I always thank everyone and feel real gratitude for it. I don't see any kind of ideology in it.
But I also never hung around leering types, those with leisure to get into someone's business or those looking for things they could not have (me). Some of older threads seemed to say that courtesy was not friendly, it was harrassment.
We don't know how anyone has been brought up, what their personal life, work experience or other things that made them the way they are. No use taking offense. Life is short. JMHO.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)Is it just the season for people to be pissed, or did this really cause trouble before? (I suppose it did, from the comments, but why hash it up now?)
Anyway, the survey seems to have been done in Merrie Olde England and has little to do with NYC subways or Carolina stairways. But, some people have mentioned that it is only proper to offer assistance when you see someone struggling with package or pram or with arms full of packages at the Post Office facing a door. I see this sort of thing all the time around here and it has nothing to do with genitalia but simple civility and politeness. It is the way in a reasonably properly ordered society.
Do I fear a militant feminist possibly ripping my head off if I offer assistance getting up the stairs with her ungainly load? Or when holding the door when she is right behind me and not holding it means it will slam closed on her nose? Of course not. Such a reaction would be as rude as my ignoring her. Or him, as the case may be, and should it happen I simply shrug and be on my way.
Now, what was the argument about again?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)In case you haven't noticed, cornflakes on chicken can lead to flame wars here.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)at a certain point it just gets silly. And the entertainment value of watching people get apoplectic over the simplest things gets old fairly soon.
The only question is whether or not I have the time to get back into this mess and have some fun.
lpbk2713
(43,273 posts)Didn't you ever see The Untouchables?
Sorry ... I had to.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)
TlalocW
(15,675 posts)Being in Union Station. You never know when Capone's men are going to pop up.
TlalocW
RandySF
(84,283 posts)I always help because I pushed a buggy many days.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Aren't both sexes perfectly capable of standing?
I read a blog written by a disabled person and she explained that she finds it offensive if people automatically assume she needs help because she's disabled. Maybe many men feel that way that were interviewed for this study.
BTW, we went from porn to chivalry in the same day here in GD. Is this a new record?
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)I also let them cut in front of me at the store checkout. Especially if they are older or good looking.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)I must be some sort of aberration!
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)in this case, a strange dude pretending to help as a ploy to make them feel indebted.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)lol You can't deny hormones.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)for nothing they wanted or needed. and that is a turn off. many they never actually help anyone unless they want something from them.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)...it is far from sad. It is natural. You wouldn't be here if it weren't true.
It's pretty obvious that you will never understand or accept it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I have better things and better people to do..... but I guess if you go around begging total strangers for attention and affirmation, your would't understand that.
Some of us are happier without you.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)
Fortunately for you, your parents did.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)nt
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)What about the not-so-attractive?
Do you think they owe you a date for being so "nice"?
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Giving up a seat to attractive women is 'weird'?
Ever heard of testosterone and estrogen? lol
Do you believe that men's only intention when being courteous to women is for a date? Wow, you are naive.
MattBaggins
(7,948 posts)You make a classic frshman college level mistake of thinking testosterone is responsible for societal and cultural roles. You really shouldn't make that false assumption.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)....irregardless of the society or culture.
MattBaggins
(7,948 posts)you are wrong
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)nt
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Science of Attraction and Love
"Have you ever wondered what is the reason that we get attracted to the opposite sex? What is behind a relationship between a man and woman? Or what is the reason we find some body totally irresistible and often fantasize about that person in a sexually inclined manner? Why is that we are swept off our feet at the sight or thought of someone and long to be with him/her whenever we are free?"
What causes love and attraction
That should clear it up for you...
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)That's Jr high school level sex education stuff.
Tien1985
(923 posts)A women taking testosterone or a man taking estrogen will not switch their sexual orientation. Nor does a man with low testosterone suddenly start being attracted to other men, anymore than a man with high testosterone means that he will be more likely to be straight.
Your simplistic (and factually incorrect) notion of how hormones work discounts the fact that people who choose to act differently from you have committed relationships. It also implies that all gay, lesbian or bisexual people have a hormonal imbalance--is that what you are meaning to imply?
Differing opinions are one thing, but you can't have your own facts.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Last edited Wed Dec 4, 2013, 03:52 PM - Edit history (1)
Masculinity and feminity are not the same thing as sexual preference. Doh!
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)...rather bizarre....lol
The Effect of Hormones on Attraction
Tien1985
(923 posts)From the publishers of Better Homes and Gardens? Because that's what the Meredith Corporation is.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)That states estrogen and testosterone play no role in sexual attraction/sexuality.
Thanks in advance.
Tien1985
(923 posts)That sexuality is determined by hormone imbalance?
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)I'm saying that sexual drive/attraction stems from sex hormones.
Thanks again for your source to the contrary.
MattBaggins
(7,948 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Sex hormones have nothing to do with sexuality between men and women! The stork is responsible!
d_b
(7,463 posts)marshall
(6,706 posts)And what about helping men who are struggling?
I am a single father. When my son was an infant I struggled several times to get on an airplane with a suitcase in each hand, a backpack on my back, and my son strapped to my chest. No one ever offered to assist me. Ever.
On the other hand when I was younger people with babies and small children were called to board before everyone else and were given assistance. That doesn't happen now. I had to fight my way on with the rest of the stampede.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,211 posts)How long ago was that? Hand luggage has been restricted for decades.
marshall
(6,706 posts)All was carry on. After my son turned 2 in 2008 I had to buy him a separate ticket, so I was carrying his carry on allotment as well as mine.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,211 posts)Airlines where I am are only allowing 1 case per person (and most 'suitcases' are far too big to be allowed on). 2nd item can only be a laptop case.
marshall
(6,706 posts)I was actually allowed to have four items (five if you count a diaper bag, because that is considered extra). I had a stroller which made it easier to get to the gate, but then I had to struggle to fold it up myself and hand it over to the attendant, get my son in the front harness, put the backpack on (which was also a diaper bag) and pick up the carry on suitcases. In some ways it was easier when he could walk, but then I had to switch from two rolling carry on suitcases to one plus another backpack so I had one hand free to hold onto his hand while I maneuvered through the entry ramp and down the aisle.
Luckily he is now 7, so he can walk independently and carry a small bag when we travel. But I recall when I was young, in the 70s, folks with children who were even up to 7 or 8 got extra help and boarded early. That doesn't happen anymore.
And that doesn't even touch on the horror of going through security with luggage and a small child. I recall an instance when he was around 18 months old, I had to hold him out at arm's length, screaming the whole time, while the agent patted down his diaper looking hidden contraband.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)everyone and really should have checked some of that. With the kid strapped to your chest and all those bags, all anyone saw was someone trying to bring to much crap on the plane. I bet next time, you left some stuff behind or checked it. As you should have.
marshall
(6,706 posts)Remember, I was carrying luggage for two people. My two largest bags were well under the limit for a carry on and fit easily into the overhead bin (once I struggled to get them up there without dropping my child). The smaller bags all fit into less than half the underseat space alotted to our two seats.
I do completely agree with your point that people today will ignore someone, man or woman, who appears to be encroaching onto their right to schlep as much "crap" as possible onto the plane. Whether it is an oxygen tank or a pair of crutches, a wheelchair or an infant car seat, nobody has the polished kindness that I observed as a child. Or perhaps I was just naive and didn't notice the hatefulness that was going on around me.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)who had twice as much stuff as everyone else, god knows if anyone could see the baby strapped to your chest unless they were in front of you and turned around. I was just picturing people thinking WTH, how'd they let him board with all that? and leaving you to it. People in airports are probably at their the most exhausted and thoughtless. Everyone is bedraggled- but I do wish people had been kinder to you.
marshall
(6,706 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 3, 2013, 10:06 PM - Edit history (1)
But that's my whole point. Either people have just become generally less apt to assist anybody than when I was young or they've always been less apt to help a man with a baby because they only looks or what they know, or people like them.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)town those tubes and aisles. Anyway, yeah- airports. I have seens a lot of self involved behaviour at them People stress a lot and tend to focus on their own stuff. Often very unpleasant to start with!
Go Vols
(5,902 posts)I would get the baby down the stairs,and go back for grandma if she needed help.
I open doors for women,help with loading groceries,ect.
I also helped this MF that was 25+ years my younger push his car out of traffic yesterday,no TY ,go to hell,nothing.
I will continue as I see fit and if it pisses someone off I will gladly walk away,most appreciate it tho.
sakabatou
(46,148 posts)davidn3600
(6,342 posts)sakabatou
(46,148 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)I think some of the apparently angry women in this thread should give this clip a look!
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)I'll help anyone who asks for some though. If you don't ask, I figure you've got it handled, whatever it is, whoever you are.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)The one who gives you bull product for helping undoes all the good will.
That said, I'll hold the door for anyone XX or XY.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)the world should be, and you act out of that.
other people, they have baggage, or experiences or stuff going on we can never imagine, and it is what it is. i feel sorry for those who cannot be pleasant for a genuine act of goodwill. which is 9/10 times, what the door thing is.
Deep13
(39,157 posts)Chivalry, from chevalier, the French word for "knight," is about battlefield conduct and the warrior ethos. When mounted warfare began in 10th c. France with the invention of iron horse shoes, stirrups, and the medieval saddle, a warrior philosophy developed among the new chevalier class. Chivalry was about being strong of body, brave, noble, and loyal. Knights began training at age seven and as young men, they were very good at killing.
The idea of "courtly love" being an expression of chivalry is based on modern misunderstanding of expressions of love directed by knights to noble women. The expressions were actually statements of loyalty and alliance as well as petitions for political favor. Such statements were expressed publicly in the language of love, which modern readers have misinterpreted as private, erotic expressions. The modern idea of chivalry as a kind of deference by men to women (and not only to ladies) comes from 19th c. romantic literature and not anything that actually had to do with chivalry.
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)Chivalry is about men protecting women from other men....
Deep13
(39,157 posts)I can give you a bunch of sources if you want to read about, because it is only the most fascinating subject ever.
pnwmom
(110,261 posts)her one year old.
At the end of the flight, the woman seated in her row offered to carry the car seat out of the plane for her.
And the shuttle driver, after driving her to her car, said, "Open! Open!" --pointing to her trunk. And then he loaded it up for her while she held her baby.
(And, yes, she tipped him well.)
So there still are nice, considerate men and women in the world.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)
Lobo27
(753 posts)Not because I don't want help, but because I can't help but over analyze the situation. What if they get pissed if ask, which has happened before, well its none of my business etc...
I mean a few weeks I gave a lady boost at the grocery store, used jumper cables and we got her car going. She said she had been asking people for over 30min. When I came in I saw her struggling with the care, I was at an opposite entrance, and when I came out is when I asked what was wrong. I could have gone straight to her when I got, but I chose what I wanted first. I still helped and was happy to do it.
MADem
(135,425 posts)
newfie11
(8,159 posts)I haven't opened a door in years if there is a man near it. We don't have buses so don't know about the seat thing. My grocery store still takes bags to the car and loads them.
I feel like I'm in a different country. My son and his wife, home from N. VA for Christmas, commented on how friendly everyone is here.
I really think people are stressed to the max. Job demands, traffic conjestion, etc are taking their toll in urban areas.
Btw I just moved back near Hot Springs SD but for 8 years lived outside Gering NE. I see no difference on treatment as a woman.
Iris
(16,872 posts)If 1/3 wouldn't, then 2/3s would. That's probably the same number of women who would and would not help. Decent human beings and jerks come in both genders.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)that when a man is helping you it's not because you're a woman, it's because you're a person?
Tien1985
(923 posts)But read up thread a bit and you'll see it's not true of everyone. Someone up there specifically sayings it's all due to hormones and how he particularly helps if the woman is attractive.
Not that I think we should judge everyone based on a few, but even in 2013 there are still those kinds of people.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)...if women want equal rights, that means that men no longer have to do these things for women.
The men who think this way are straight up assholes! All of them!!
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)No, men shouldn't have to do anything for women. The same way women don't have to do anything for men.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)If you read my other responses, I made it clear what I meant. Read especially my response #133.
BainsBane
(57,757 posts)because they don't work for specific things men want (the poster had a list of them).
mythology
(9,527 posts)I don't have to help anybody. I elect to help people who look like they could use a hand. But being born with XX chromosomes isn't a disability.
If somebody is so entitled that they believe I have to help them because they are female, then I'm absolutely not going to help them. To quote "don't you think every kitten figures out how to get down whether or not you ever show up"
If it makes me an asshole then saying I have to help people because they are women makes them presumptuous sanctimonious assholes for thinking their gender alone makes them worthy of my help.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)are assholes. If that doesn't apply to you, then you shouldn't take offense. Read my other responses to this thread and you'll see where I stand on this issue.
treestar
(82,383 posts)a young mother knows how to deal with her baby apparatus.
Both sexes when young should help old people.
Chivalry can die for all I care. When I was young and strong there were always men trying to "help" now that I'm middle aged, not so much. Hmmmm. Maybe it wasn't about "help."
B Calm
(28,762 posts)old women struggling with putting groceries in her car. I jumped out and gave her a hand and then wheeled her cart back into the store. On the way back I picked up two more carts that were left in the lot by lazy shoppers. Nothing angers me more than to see perfectly healthy people to fucking lazy to put their shopping cart away.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Two people actually, and they are proud of the work. I do not wish to see them be made redundant by folks who do it on a volunteer basis.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)a perfectly good parking space? There are places in the lot to roll your cart to, so the people who are on the payroll can roll them back into the store.
I think all businesses should have it where you have to pay a quarter to get a cart and you get the quarter back when you return the cart!
Lazy people who have no respect for others property sicken me!
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)2 per store!!
B Calm
(28,762 posts)are you one of those people to fucking lazy to put your cart away after shopping?
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Stop being so selfish.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)
dionysus
(26,467 posts)that's what Aldis does. the first time I went there I was very confused, lol.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)dionysus
(26,467 posts)took a while to see the coin slot... 
B Calm
(28,762 posts)what to do, lol. I'm surprised more stores don't do the same thing as Aldis. You see stolen carts all over town and those carts are not cheap!
dionysus
(26,467 posts)said "oh, i'll take that, thanks". then the guy asks me for a quarter. I'm like oooooook.... and give him a quarter. I didn't realize there was a quarter in the cart... I felt like a dope later....
B Calm
(28,762 posts)dionysus
(26,467 posts)the backseat of the car rolling around 
B Calm
(28,762 posts)empty boxes around the store when they are shopping. I love Aldis hot and spicy brats!
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)My normal grocery store, lots of lazy customers that won't walk the extra 10 feet to put the cart in the corral. This Kroger has not been renovated like many other stores in the area. It's stuck in the 80s and there's fewer choices of certain items.
Kroger a few miles away, less carts in the lot - nicer store. Better bakery, more choices, etc.
Kroger, but maybe 15-20 min away from my house (and by my mom's house). This is the grocery store we shopped in while I was growing up, and where my mom still does a lot of shopping. Hardly ever a cart in the lot not in a corral. Completely renovated a few years ago. Very nice.
Actually my mom and I took off work at the same time last Tuesday to do our Thanksgiving shopping together and we went to the first Kroger listed. She's the one that mentioned less choices. She was looking for cut up bone-in chicken pieces to make broth. She ended it was thighs or this quartered leg pieces. That's it. Also noticed that the general meat/seafood area is much smaller.
Okay, lastly there's a Tom Thumb about 5 miles from my house that I shop at occasionally. They have a sushi department, awesome bakery, deli and even flowers. Excellent beer and wine selection. They have a Starbucks inside the store (not that I partake, I'm just saying). Overall, great store. It's rare that I notice a cart in the parking lot not in the corral. Rare.
I'm starting to shop more at the grocery stores farther from my house than the first mentioned Kroger, because I'm worried about my car getting hit with a cart.
AngryOldDem
(14,180 posts)I imagine people are hesitant to offer help for fear of getting their heads bitten off. And I don't think this applies to just women. You never know any more how some people will react, so you just go about your business.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,211 posts)just because the Mail has reworded a few things. They don't give the full results of the poll (done for them by YouGov), though, which is annoying - it means you can't see how the questions were worded, and there are things like 'usually' in the release, which can give slightly misleading impressions if you don't know the full options.
http://www.axa.co.uk/newsroom/media-releases/2013/chivalry-is-not-dead/
Note they titled it 'chivalry is not dead'.
AXA: "More than a third of men state that that they are unlikely to offer to help a woman carry a buggy up or down stairs"
became
Mail: "Over a third of the 5,000 men surveyed said they would never help a woman struggling to carry a buggy up or down stairs"
That switch between 'unlikely' and 'never' is suspicious.
Tien1985
(923 posts)It's pretty simple,
"Do you need a hand?" (This question doesn't involved touching or otherwise grabbing any part or possession of the person you're talking to).
"Yes"<--- Help, feel good for helping
"No, thanks."<--- keep on walking, feel good that you offered to help
Get a glare or scowl? Oh well, either they a) misinterpreted your benign intentions OR interpreted them correctly and don't want to be hit on, b) are having a bad day (hey, it happens) c) are an asshole.
What does that person's reaction have to do with being a decent human being who offers to help when it looks like someone needs it?
How insecure does one have to be to let another person's reaction to them undermine their own values and integrity?
I'd ask a man or a woman whether they needed help if I saw them struggling with carrying something up or down stairs.
I also hold doors open behind me for men or women if they're coming up behind me as I'm going in.
AngryOldDem
(14,180 posts)Today I was walking through the lobby at work when the woman who works at the snack shop came by with a load of boxes on a cart. The load shifted and things went everywhere. I stopped and helped her get them all back together. She was most appreciative.
Bottom line: Just be nice to one another.
enki23
(7,795 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:31 AM - Edit history (1)
They were breaking windows and screaming and whipping passers-by with their bras. There must have been a thousand of them, with at least that many onlookers. I took a wide route around them. A few blocks down there was a young woman with a sign that said "equal pay for equal work," but nobody seemed interested.
Damn those feminists. If women weren't so damned obnoxious, I might support the equal pay thing. But then I think about the bra-whippings and just heave a dramatic sigh, maybe shed a little tear. Also, I'm a moron.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Sadly, I have seen this sexist crap here "If women weren't so damned obnoxious, I might support the equal pay thing."
MattBaggins
(7,948 posts)alarimer
(17,146 posts)Useless sexist bullshit.
Obviously, helping someone who is struggling is just the polite thing to do. But you should always ask first and not assume they need or want your assistance.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)But I do live in a small, rather old fashioned city. People here tend to be polite. Men & women open doors for others, hold the door for people coming that way. In grocery stores people bumping carts or getting in each other's way tends to go like this: Person 1 "Excuse me." Person 2 "Pardon me". I often see men open door let lady pass through first and then go in.
Stuff like this is very common here but again, small city, midwest (northern MI).
Julie
Skittles
(171,713 posts)why do small towns and cities think they have a lock on courtesy?
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)But I do think it might be a bit more frequent in small communities simply because so many know each other. Things also do tend to move a little bit slower in smaller communities too so people may be a bit less stressed & pressed for time. We may have a bit more opportunity here too. We get literally tons of snow dumped on us pretty regularly. Have seen strangers helping stuck cars out of tough spots countless times, warms my heart every time. I've even been the lucky recipient of such service!
Other than that, I can vouch for courtesy in larger cities too! I've had wonderful experiences in Chicago, NY & Miami!
Of course we know too that there are rude people in all communities as well, sadly.
Lastly, if it makes you feel any better, sure we have lots of nice, polite people here but let me tell ya, they are awful drivers!
Julie--who thinks everyone here (in the hinterlands of MI) should go to Detroit to learn to drive
Skittles
(171,713 posts)the only real difference I've noticed is if you help someone in the city, everyone in town does not know about it the next day. Certainly city drivers are more aggressive though.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)It isn't about men helping women but about people helping people.
Women don't take help as sexual harassment unless people use helping as a lead-in to sexually harass, or think they've earned points and should get something for the points they've earned. People help people because people need help, not because they're trying to get something in return. If you're trying to get something in return, you aren't really helping them, you're trying to help yourself.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Avoid all interactions with other people's kids if at all possible.
Iggo
(49,927 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)You should offer help regardless of gender.
Or not and just admit to being selfish. The men in this survey are lying. They're using that excuse as cover for their own selfishness.
I work with a guy who races forward and almost knocks people over to open doors for attractive women, so he can then give them a creepy smile, and then stare at their bums when they enter. He doesn't do that for the ugly women.
So far he hasn't gotten laid for his efforts.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)So, if he gets his head bitten off by some angry female that he 'was only trying to help', he shouldn't be the least bit surprised. But he'll go on and on about how nasty those feminists are...
Actually, I don't know if your co-worker would really say those things, but plenty of other men do. I think it's the "Nice Guy" syndrome.
Scout
(8,625 posts)man, woman, child, if you think someone needs help ASK ... if they say no, don't get your knickers in a twist over it.
if they say yes, then help them. and don't expect anything more than a "thank you" ... if you don't get a thank you, oh well, you'll live.
sick of shit like this being made into gender discussions.
mercuryblues
(16,413 posts)And when the roles are reversed, researchers found that men, by and large, don't enjoy being on the receiving end of chivalrous acts from women, either.
While three out of five of men say they really do appreciate a door being held open for them by a woman, only a third would be happy about a seat being offered to them on a train or bus, with one in five saying they would be actively embarrassed.
Why is it acceptable that 2/3 of men can be embarrassed that a woman would offer her seat and 2 out of 5 men do not want a woman to hold open a door for them, yet women are not allowed to feel the same way? Women are supposed to acquiesce, smile and say thank you?
Pitagoras
(30 posts)The article is link-bait, pretending that the men in question would never help the lady, when in fact nothing is said about whether the men would change their minds if the lady in question asked them to do it.
But as we know, link-bait is the way to do news these days. To say that 1/3 of men didn't volunteer help is not as short, snappy and shocking as to say they would never help them, period.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)She should be using an escalator like a normal person!
That way, if she loses control, the buggy won't fly down the steps, but slowly descend with the escalator's own motion slowing the descent.
Pitagoras
(30 posts)Many.
randome
(34,845 posts)I helped a woman up the stairs with her buggy last year.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers. It's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]
Proles
(466 posts)My feet get tired too... If she's pregnant or elderly, that's another thing though.
And if a woman needs help carrying a stroller, she can ask for help. Otherwise, she may be threatened by what she perceives to be some mysterious man approaching her and/or her child. I don't blame men for not acting like "real men," when oftentimes the help they offer isn't appreciated, or is seen as some veiled stratagem to get physically close to the woman.
I do appreciate it when women hold the door for me though.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)if they're holding a cane or something.
People should simply give up seats for those who need them more.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)unless she's in distress, or ill, or some other extenuating circumstances.
That's exactly how I would treat another man.
I *would* offer to help any person, mother or father, struggling with a baby-stroller on steps.
In the '60s, I often surrendered my public-transportation seat to women; it was considered polite to do so, and I was generally a polite young man.
In the '70s, I realized that women are my equal and should be treated as such. I'm now 64 years old and though I'm in very good physical condition for my age, it would be silly AND patronizing to give up my seat to any woman not in specific difficulty.
Like most polls, this one is stupidly narrow and designed in such a way as to validate a specific point.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)If she asks for help, then sure, I'll help her. Otherwise I'll assume she has it under control.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Chivalry sucks. It's inherently unequal. It doesn't matter that only 7% of women correctly recognize that chivalrous acts ARE patronizing.
I would offer my seat for anyone with a disability worse than my bad back (age, pregnancy, or otherwise) but not for a healthy young woman.
Does that mean I suck? I can live with that. She's a grownup like the rest of the people on the bus and there's no more compelling reason to give her the seat than the healthy young guy.
A stroller? I'd offer to help a mom or dad who was struggling with a stroller because flailing and lurching up the stairs is hazardous for the kid.
ismnotwasm
(42,674 posts)Trashing
appleannie1
(5,457 posts)My mom was in a wheelchair the last 5 years of her life and I took her shopping all the time. I even got in an argument with a cop that refused to ticket the Cadillac without a handicap placard that was parked in the only handicap spot because he "did not believe in that handicapped crap". He was parked in the loading zone right behind a truck that was unloading. I pulled right up behind his bumper and proceeded to lift my mom out of the car into her wheelchair. He got out of his car, ticket book in hand and started back. I said "Go ahead and ticket me. I will not only take it up with the magistrate and the mayor, I will take it up with the Attorney General of the State and explain that you personally were denying my mother the right to be able to shop and were not doing your duty by ticketing the Cadillac. Pigs like you give real policemen a bad name." He decided not to ticket me and remained blocked in until we were through shopping. I don't wish anyone ill but some people should have to experience what it is like to be handicapped and not be able to get out of a car in a regular parking space. Perhaps they will learn to be thankful they CAN walk an extra 50 feet instead of parking in the handicap spot. And perhaps they will help a woman lifting a wheelchair into a trunk or a woman struggling with a stroller.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Left2Tackle
(64 posts)Two-thirds would assist. But that wouldn't be an interesting article.
nolabear
(43,850 posts)It would be SO much easier if people just asked and replied honestly on both sides.
I guess there's ample reward in the outrage.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)doesn't that leave two thirds that will help.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)However, helping someone struggling with a baby carriage or offering a seat to someone who clearly needs it more than you is just good manners.
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)Two thirds. That's a super-majority. It sounds different when you put it that way, doesn't it?
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts) 
Lex
(34,108 posts)What's with all the hand-wringing on this thread?
randome
(34,845 posts)Someone should stage a scenario where a woman appears to be having trouble getting the buggy up stairs, film the results and count the percentage of people who passed her by.
My bet is that the woman gets aid very quickly.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers. It's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)walk right past these women. in fairness, i help anyone with luggage etc up and down stairs. it amazes me how many people just dont care
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)make you frightened about being slapped with a lawsuit? Because those seem to be common reactions for dudes, not sure why, LOL.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)
Ilsa
(64,371 posts)Flight of stairs. It is called "an act of kindness", and I think little acts of kindness make the world a better place.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)dem in texas
(2,681 posts)This was about 15 years ago, I was at the Farmers Market and had started backing out of my parking spot when my car died, totally wouldn't start. I was blocking all the cars behind me who were driving though the shed, I had cars backed-up waiting, out of the shed and down the street. No one offered to help, so I stared tying to push it back in the parking place while trying to steer it at the same time. This old man who looked 80 years old, hobbled over to help me. This shamed all the strong men standing around and they finally came and helped us push my car back in the parking spot so the other cars could get by.
Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)
Sissyk
(12,665 posts)and turn it into a majority? 1/3 from a whole leaves what?
Also, If I lived where some of you do, I'd move. All those crazy men you run into that get violently verbal if you politely say "No, thanks. I can manage."? I can't imagine living in a place like that. I'd probably be arrested for decking them. Male or Female. Or, laughing at them.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)If someone felt the need to berate me for being sexist or somehow creepy, I'd laugh about it. Then I'd come here and post the story, so the usuals could call bullshit on it and probably titter away that I had a trench coat on and my wang out while I offered or something.
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)I'll lend a hand but otherwise I assume all adults can take care of their own matters.
As for equality- it's not fully official until women have to sign up for the draft. I think it's a travesty our country is so sexist.
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)in the same fashion?
Would they all welcome the help or would they react is some other way?
Is chivalry dead because it's been stomped to death?
I like to think that I have southern manners. I was raised in the south. Everyone is Sir or Mam, I don't care if you 3 years old or 90. I feel that being honest, loyal, and courteous to everyone is the right thing to do. I no longer live in the south, and feel that my view of how I should treat my fellow humans is being stomped to death.
When I stand up from a table when someone joins, I'm looked at like my head is on fire. In fact been made fun of, like I was some backward hick. I cannot tell you the number of times I've simply tried to help someone with their coat, and there I was holding their coat out, and they had some strange look like I was expecting them to charge through it like a bull. I've been admonished for holding a door on several occasions. Yes Mam, I am fully aware that you are totally capable of getting the door yourself, that was not my point. I was just trying to be nice. I figured it would be rude to let the door slam in your face.
I think that it's because ill manners have become the norm, and that an actual act of politeness is being misread by the recipient. I will say from what I see is that it is regional. Smiling and saying "hello" in Philly is met quite differently than in Gatlinburg. In Tennessee I'm being polite. In Pennsylvania I'm being a creep.
So what happens, is to avoid being the creep, I avoid eye contact, I don't say "hello", and I'm quite conscious that if I do offer to help I may be informed where to go and how to get there.
Being a gentleman I feel is something that is misunderstood. Some argue that it is archaic, or on the other hand some think of it as a set of "rules" to follow. I don't feel that it is either. To me, to say one is a gentleman is basically you are giving a positive review of their character. You are saying that man and who he is, is a good man. I feel that a good gentleman should stand out, that they should be a role model for other men. Holding open a door, or standing when a new guest arrives at a table or party does not a gentleman make.
I feel that a gentleman is the part, not one who acts it. A good gentleman adapts to each situation because they want to, not because they have to. A man who does not have respect for his fellow humans, who somehow see himself above others, in any way can never be a gentleman.
marshall
(6,706 posts)Same info, different focus.
http://www.axa.co.uk/newsroom/media-releases/2013/chivalry-is-not-dead/
Daily Mail says chivalry is dead, while AXA uses the same stuff and says it is not dead.
I think the key is intended audience. AXA apparently commissioned this research in order to train their male staff to offer more courtesy and by extension their female staff to more readily accept it.
Daily Mail wants to just generate interest, controversy, and sales. They have no interest in motivating people to improvement.
But I question the fundamental approach taken in conducting this research. Was the project initiated to meet the need of an executive who wanted staff to be more polite in order to increase sales? This kind of pressure to produce desired results does not usually make for viable data.
oxymoron
(4,079 posts)Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Because I don't think it is an issue in California.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)"Men who don't know when they should help and when they shouldn't are all assholes".... "After being told off or scowled at, I don't help woman anymore".... "If a woman needs help she should just ask for it"... "A woman shouldn't HAVE to ask for help"... "You're a misogynist"... "You're an asshole"...
It's like watching an episode of Three's Company you haven't seen before, but you still know what the plot is going to be (2 of them will be talking about something, the 3rd one will overhear 1/2 a conversation and assume all the wrong things, and hilarity ensues).
It's not about gender at all, it's about common courtesy... except the discussion always starts with the premise that it's a woman that might needs the help and the man that might be the one that helps. Rarely does it seem to come up how often women in a similar situation will help each other, men in similar situations will help other men, and (the rarest, it seems, of all) how often women help a man in a similar situation. If it wasn't about gender, and the study was the same (without mentioning gender), the post would read "People less likely to help strangers" and the thread would look nothing like this.
Of course it's about gender for most posters, because it provides a platform where one can get out their gender related anger often with broad brush statements about "men" or "women" with the fig leaf "I'm not talking about ALL men/women, just men/women in general", or some such nonsense. The headline could be simply "Men and Women are genetically different", and the thread would look very similar.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)this is why young men are confused because they are sent mixed messages by our society.
I was raised that communication is a two way street and that in grade school if I needed help with an assignment I raise my hand. And the teacher would come over and help me because he/she can't read my mind if I understand the assignment or not.
Also assuming that disabled people need help is wrong because I know some disabled people that take pride in being self sufficient or even the elderly that refuse to use an electric cart for grocery shopping and opt to use a cane instead.
Asking is only part of the equation, the other side is speaking up.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Call me paranoid, but worrying about a setup makes a lot of people worry about anything having to do with someone's kid.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)my generation and younger generations have grown up to accept this new normal. That is why if a woman wants my help? Then she should communicate that she wants my help.
I refuse to be a white knight for any man or woman unless they genuinely want help.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Response to Liberal_in_LA (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
DragonBorn
(175 posts)And women killed it! - Chris Rock
I just wanted to add my opinion to this thread because I've witnessed this firsthand. Yes most people (not just men) will walk right past a women trying to navigate down or up the subway stairs with a baby carriage. Whenever I saw a women trying to navigate the stairs with a carriage I always stopped to help them and I never got a No Thanks. Every woman with a carriage has always been very greatful for the assistance and thanked me.
However I stopped offering my seat to women on the train because so many of them would not say thank you. It just got so frustrating that I said screw it and would only offer my seat to the pregnant, disabled, or elderly. So it does cut both ways IMO.