if you ran detroit what would you do

[rdking647]

you dont have enough money to pay your obligations

you cant default in your bonds without triggering bankruptcy and then a judge gets to decide who gets paid including pension cuts
you dont have enough to pay for pensions and essential services

so what do you do?

blaming wall street is fine but doesnt actually cure the problem. and suing take a long long time and you need money now
what do you do .

[beachbum bob]

1. default... let the court decide

End of the line for gross misconduct...

[doc03]

2. Get out of Dodge n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

5. I was going to post "Run FROM Detroit". n/t

[doc03]

17. I am a Gunsmoke fan n/t

[loli phabay]

3. nuke it from orbit.

[gollygee]

13. I know you think this is a joke

And I don't think you're from Michigan, but you should know that the racist Michigan Militia type people actually say this in a more serious way. I was going to respond in a knee-jerk way but then I thought that you probably aren't from Michigan. There is a lot of racial tension between Detroit and the more predominately white areas of the state and in that context, as a person from Michigan, I want you to know that this sounds very different from how I think you mean it. I remember after Katrina hearing jokes about how smart Louisiana was to have a large population of African Americans live below sea level and not have good levees, and joking about how Michigan could find a similar strategy to "deal with" Detroit. Your joke immediately made me think of that.

To everyone else in the thread - I didn't alert on this, but my guess is it was a person from Michigan who has a different context to this discussion. If people respond in a way you don't understand, remember that context. In that context, this whole thread really sucks.

[loli phabay]

15. reference, movie aliens

[gollygee]

18. Ah

Yeah, different context entirely.

[Fla_Democrat]

66. It's the only way to be sure

[NM_Birder]

114. Game Over man......Game Over.....

[Wait Wut]

25. "In that context, this whole thread really sucks."

I agree. I watched the Anthony Bourdain piece on Detroit and I was in tears. Reading some of the replies is disheartening. I thought Dems/Libs were more compassionate. There are people involved. Real people. This is a once great city lying in dust and we can't even bring ourselves to dream of a solution.

I'm assuming you're from Michigan. Chicago, here. We still love you. Except for football. We hate your guts when it comes to football.

[Wait Wut]

4. Beg.

Detroit needs to rebrand and rebuild and it isn't going to happen without a lot of good faith investors and really brave people that have little to nothing to lose. Turn it into a music, arts, cultural mecca. Exploit the outer areas of Michigan. It's a beautiful state. Use it to your advantage and start promoting those little pockets of art and culture. Put aside a small fund for beautification.

It will take decades to rebuild. It will start at the bottom.

Edit to add: I thought my post was semi-negative until I read those before. Wow. I'm from Chicago. Detroit and Chicago worked together for many years when the auto industry was healthy and thriving. I guess we're not ready to give up on Detroit. My friends 'back home' feel the same way as I do. We're sad. It's like watching a childhood playmate die a painful and slow death.

To anyone from Detroit here, I haven't forgotten the old you.

[mstinamotorcity2]

45. Its okay.

You can't turn a jackass into a horse.

[badtoworse]

6. Bankruptcy is the only option and everyone will get a haircut.

[RandySF]

7. My list

1. Give up on the crazy idea of making it another Chicago and focus on making it the best Detroit it can be.
2. Forget about drawing 2 million people back and make it smaller, better.
3. Focus like a laser on the basics: Safety, Sanitation and infrastructure.
3a. Fix the street lights.
3.b Tear down the abandoned, uninhabitable houses.
3c. Tend to overgrowth in summer.
4. Encourage the growth of urban farming centers to provide nutritious foods to those in the neighborhoods.
5. Hold accountable the owners of properties where abandoned buildings sit.


I have a huge list of things I would do for my old home town.

[Wait Wut]

16. You and I would agree on most things, I think.

From a Chicago 'hometowner' to you, .

[frazzled]

24. The $13B JP Morgan settlement will help with nos. 3 & 5

The State of Michigan, and hard-hit areas like Detroit, are likely to get a share of the record $13-billion settlement paid by banking giant JPMorgan Chase to the federal government over toxic mortgages that sparked the Great Recession in 2008.

Some $4 billion of the penalty will be in the form of relief to aid customers who suffered under the actions of JPMorgan, and Bear Stearns and Washington Mutual, which JPMorgan acquired during the height of the fiscal crisis. The relief will come through programs such as loan modifications, principal forgiveness and blight-reduction efforts like those that were part of a U.S. Treasury department blight reduction program. Exactly how much of the money is expected to come Michigan’s way is unknown.

Five Michigan cities — including Detroit, Grand Rapids and Flint — have already received $100 million in federal grant money to help reduce blight.

http://www.freep.com/article/20131119/NEWS07/311190143/

[CurtEastPoint]

34. I like all those, Randy. I watched the Bourdain piece also. There is a ton of potential there.

[rdking647]

61. But how do you solve the current crisis

These are all great ideas for the future but what about now.

[RandySF]

65. Right now

I don't think anything short of a federal investment to make Detroit solvent again would work.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

83. If there's no money for transit, encourage neighborhood entrepreneurs

to offer transit van services to take people shopping or to work or wherever else they need to go.

Since, as I recall, the city is rather flat, distribute bicycles for people to ride in good weather. Make the "motor city" heritage part of the past.

Learn from Cuba. (I'm not kidding.) They went through virtual bankruptcy when the Russians suddenly cut off all assistance. They encouraged people to grow their own food organically and share items that they needed only occasionally.

If any buildings are reparable, release them for urban homesteading, with strong preference given to people who are already Detroit residents.

[In_The_Wind]

8. At Tue Dec 3, 2013, 02:50 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

At Tue Dec 3, 2013, 02:50 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

if you ran detroit what would you do
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024126609

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Continuation from another thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014662304

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Dec 3, 2013, 02:57 PM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: It's a legit question to a difficult situation
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I vehemently disagree with rdking647. It is a very conservative capitalistic view - there are many other ways Detroit could've been handled. But I can't hide this post because I don't see anything inflammatory or over the top. It's just a right wing point of view and we get a lot of that on this site unfortunately. If the poster is polite there's not much to be done about it.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: somebody alerted on this?
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Wait Wut]

9. WTH?

I think my brain just exploded.

[In_The_Wind]

10. We seem to have some very confused DUers around today.

Most of 'em are blaming everything on porn.

[loli phabay]

11. I blame tired hands and failing eyesight myself.

[In_The_Wind]

26. That's my excuse at the end of most days.

[img][/img]

[Wait Wut]

12. Porn killed Detroit?

This is what I get for taking a vacation. I miss out on all the important info.

[In_The_Wind]

23. There is porn everywhere!

Not only in GD, HoF and The Lounge but also in Video & Multimedia:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017162372

[loli phabay]

27. well something like forty percent of all internet searches are for porn

[In_The_Wind]

30. I've done my share of searching today.

Trying to find softcore that can be posted. [img][/img]

[Wait Wut]

28. Holy crap.

Is Junior High on break or something?

[loli phabay]

54. lol, its probuably the reason why the internet has grown, much the same as video in the past.

[KamaAina]

29. That alert was not sent because of the right-wing nature of the post

it was because the poster had been making similar comments in the linked thread from LBN. Continuation of a dispute by starting a new thread, like calling out a DUer, is against the rules.

[In_The_Wind]

31. I agree ... call outs aren't allowed.

[Agschmid]

63. That was quite possibly the worst alert ever.

[In_The_Wind]

70. I'm not very good at alerting on a post.

So I usually leave it up to someone else.

[frazzled]

14. One thing you don't do is ...

Sell off all the art from the Detroit Institute of Arts to pay off old contractor debts, etc.

Why not? Because it's short-sighted for the long term. Even as you're trying to get out of debt and right the economy in the short term, you have to be thinking about how to grow the city for the long term. And the few amenities that remain, such as a world-class museum and art collection, are the kinds of things that attract businesses and tourists and residents to a city. And that's good for everyone in the city.

I just had to mention this item, because really, the art is at risk.

Everybody is gonna have to suck up some pain, and maybe the museum should be a part of that pain (furloughs for employees, reduced hours, higher admission prices). But sad to say, it will have to be pain shared by everyone in the city and in the government. And yes, bankruptcy will be part of it.

[loli phabay]

21. question is, are the people who live in Detroit willing to sacrifice to make it work

Or if given the opportunity would they leave, has Detroit reached the point of mo return.

[mstinamotorcity2]

41. how about I answer that for you.

Majority of those that are leaving, have left. the people that are here have been engaged in re-vamping our neighborhoods. those that don't know us only spend useless rhetoric. They talk about 80,000 abandoned homes. But they don't talk about the fact that 65,000 of them are owned by financial institutions. Institutions that operate and do business in the community. In a city that has been blue collar, the down turn that was experienced under Dubya made it worse. Detroit has a lot of good people and neighborhoods. Has anyone ever google earth search??? When I go to work, the streets of Detroit are busy. The people that live and work in the city may not make the best wages, but they go to work. I will admit that I was upset over the bankruptcy. Since the President has sent in federal monitors I am hoping for a little more fairness. This way if a haircut must be taken, everybody feels the pain. Because residents of this city have been feeling the pain and pulling the weight of those who no longer reside here. And for all those people who think pensions are the so called problem the average pension payout is about $20,000. Which I believe is around $1,200 a month. I guess they must be rich. Seems like a lot of people believe right wing rhetoric as gospel. And just so you know the word Sacrifice is nothing new to Detroiters and you don't have to worry about a return point if you are already there.

[loli phabay]

47. thanks for the answer, was just wondering if people feel its worth saving detroit as a city

Rather than downsizing and for want of a better word ruralising large parts of it.

[mstinamotorcity2]

55. Duh!!!!!!!

You are talking about peoples lives, homes, churches, and schools. What do you mean worth saving????? Do we have a problem with Detroiters

[loli phabay]

56. honestly, dont feel either way about it, was just wondering if the city is in the death throes

Or if it could be brought back, in the end it is down to the people of the area to decide, i dont live there or have any connections so i dont have any say in it.

[mstinamotorcity2]

57. Death Throes???????

So melodramatic or you just got RIP mentality. What part of television rhetoric don't you get. Can't believe everything you hear. DUH!!!!!!

[loli phabay]

58. no idea what you mean, dont watch tv other than some shows

As i said i have no interest in detroit so its something i have not paid attention to. If you notice the feath throes was part of a question ibwas asking you as you are from the area and know more about the city than i.

[quadrature]

19. unincorporate... the land would be a nice moose preserve...nt

[Rex]

20. Invade Canada?

Drastic times call for drastic measures!

[bemildred]

22. Resign, you've botched it up. nt

[OnlinePoker]

32. Head south to Canada. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. Give it back to France or Britain.

[Savannahmann]

35. I said this years ago, and I stand by it. It should be bulldozed into Lake Michigan, and start over.

The reason is this story. http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2009/09/update_pastor_shoots_wounds_in.html

A Pastor shot a burglar in the church. Seriously, the criminals don't consider the church off limits, and the pastor was a retired police officer, and he shot the burglar in the church.

When your ministers are packing heat, there is no hope for the city, bulldoze it and start over.

[gollygee]

36. You think the physical land is the problem?

Or would you bulldoze the people?

I stand by my post above. This thread sucks.

[KamaAina]

39. That would be a neat trick indeed

since Lake Michigan is all the way across the state.

Detroit fronts on the Detroit River, which connects Lakes Huron and Erie.

[mstinamotorcity2]

42. Good

one

[loli phabay]

48. lol, i know nothing of the geography of the area.

[KamaAina]

49. Here you go

See Detroit down at the lower right. Now figure out how to bulldoze it into the large body of water at the left.

[loli phabay]

51. lol, its a hell of an engineering job, but were there is a will there is a way, i suppose.

[mstinamotorcity2]

59. You must be a teacher.

Cause you got Geography down to a Map Maybe they don't know their right from their left nice response.

[Savannahmann]

62. Thank you for correcting my ignorance

That is my mistake, and I appreciate it. I just looked at a map, and saw that my mental image was completely wrong. Thank you again.

[Octafish]

37. AIG got $182 Billion Bailout.

Detroit is in hock $18 billion.

What isn't reported much is who got Detroit into bad money management practices, cough, the Banksters of Wall Street.

[Yo_Mama]

38. BK stops the lawsuits

Failing a bailout from the state, I don't see there was any other option.

This way, at least the city can get back to providing the basic services and rebuilding.

[Capt. Obvious]

40. I'd have Bixby Snyder buy up all of the houses for a dollar

Then make Robocop to reclaim the streets

[dembotoz]

43. annex canada--they seem to be doing ok

[Niceguy1]

44. shut down all

unnecessary services to concentrate on that the basics. Tear down all abandoned structures and sell all assets not needed for the above.

[RebelOne]

85. That was my first thought. Shut it down. n/t

[Niceguy1]

89. fire police sanitation

just the basics

[Starry Messenger]

46. First we would start with a country that gives a shit about its heritage and people.

We'd realize that the "go it alone" approach sucks and we need everybody to have a functioning system. Detroit didn't happen in a vacuum.

A nice big program like the TVA of old, with a WPA would lift Detroit and the rest of us.

Not honoring pensions is fucking stealing, no matter how you'd like to hand-wave and candy coat it in bullshit. If you can't pay people what you promised them, then you stole their labor, hands down.

[mstinamotorcity2]

72. this country is used

to stolen free labor.

[KamaAina]

50. Explore a merger with Wayne County

Consolidated government works in other places, like Nashville-Davidson, Miami-Dade, and the City and County of Honolulu. Meanwhile, Jacksonville and Augusta have annexed nearly all of their respective counties.

[rdking647]

60. I like that idea

But what do you do about the debt. A lot of people are complaining about cutting pensions but I don't see how the pensions don't get cut. I don't see a feasible way to avoid it

And I've yet to see one person post a feasable solution

[Kaleva]

77. Excellent suggestion!

Many people in Michigan consider anything in wayne County as being Detroit itself.

[dembotoz]

52. you have all this infrastructure in place--streets, sewers etc

maybe little towns or communities with in the confines of the existing city

retirement mecca
cheap housing, they would bring the sources of income in with them via social security and pensions
create jobs as these folks would need to buy food, furniture, healthcare from somewhere.
would not be a burden on the school district-cause face it-i'm too old to reproduce....
mass transit available, airport nearby, shopping nearby
casinos near by, top flight hospitals near by.

no hurricanes, community association handles snow removal....
shit this could work

[KurtNYC]

53. Fight for single payer healthcare which is what sent the jobs to Canada!

"Detroit" is making cars, they just aren't making as many in the US as they used to. When you employ as many people as the car makers do/did then healthcare is a huge cost and they have simply arbitraged the US and Canada. They didn't even have to move all that far -- Bramton, Ontario.

They manufacture in Canada because it saves them hundreds of millions in healthcare costs. Single payer would help not only Detroit's problems but also the other major cities that are in need of rebound.

2. Make the car manufacturers admit that the cars they sell as "Imported from Detroit" include many which are imported to Detroit:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/10/12/imported-from-detroit-car-really-from-canada-consumer-group-says/

The marketing claim exploits the good will that American consumers intend to send to the working people of Detroit. Right now they "talk the talk" but the walking is from Bramton and other cities in that region of Canada.

[CFLDem]

64. It's a terrible situation

but a small preview of whats to come when Illinois goes belly up. I feel for my family and friends back home who are stuck with that mess.

Makes Florida look like paradise.

[lpbk2713]

67. Use an alias and avoid photographers.

[longship]

68. Make sure that every Wayne County resident is registered to vote.

And if need be, get volunteers to personally drive them to the polls at every election.

That's the only solution.

[First Speaker]

69. Send the "emergency manager" back to Lansing in tar and feathers...

...OK--maybe I don't mean that literally. But there was a time in our history when that's exactly what would have happened. The American Revolution was largely triggered because England replaced our legislatures with appointed Royal governors...can someone explain the difference to me?
Having gotten *that* out of my system...the best idea would, indeed, be a consolidated metro government, merginf Detroit with Wayne County. Racism, mostly, would make that implausible...but that's what Detroit should be suggesting, and they should make it as much of an issue as they can.
On a larger issue--should Detroit simply assume that they can never regain any of their lost ground? Population has gone from 2,000,000 to 700,000. And heading lower still...should they abandon any hope of reversing this? This seems wrong to me, on a visceral level, though I admit I know relatively little about conditions there now, though I did live in Dearborn for many years as a kid. But a long-range goal of returning to, say, one million might just be feasible, if they can get thru the current crisis. In the meantime, though, they'll have to use their minds and imaginations to make small-scale improvements where they can. I have faith in our cities, and in Detroit--and its people...

[backwoodsbob]

71. lots of stuff

first get people to work identifying the tens of thousands of properties the city owns through default that they can't even produce the papers on and sell them under agreement that the property if a residential MUST be lived in by the owner or the city defaults back to ownership or in the case of industrial/commercial...half taxes for ten years or however long to get businesses moving back in with the same if not used and producing the property defaults back to the city.

I would sell ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOODS to any developer who will guarentee a tax base.There are plenty of abandoned blocks in Detroit that are prime locations for rebuilding if the developer knows the city will work with them instead of causing problems every step of the way

Second.UPDATE THE CITIES SYSTEMS.The company I used to work for gave up on Detroit because the simplest things when dealing with the city were like pulling teeth.

THIRD...be realistic about what taxes people/corporations will accept when they have choices all around.My three companies I worked for in the Detroit area all refused to locate anything in Detroit proper because of the fees/taxes they would incur.

Taxes/fees to do business in Detroit are higher than ANY surrounding suburb...like it or not you have to give people a reason to want to locate there.

FORTH and MOST IMPORTANT...stop the corruption and problems that have plagued that city since at least the 50's

[Boom Sound 416]

74. Good post

[mstinamotorcity2]

75. Don't have to worry about

whole blocks being sold. that's done. its been a fire sale for the last 8 years. And if you count what Illitch has been doing it would be the last twenty. Dennis Archer and family (his son's) had quite a bit of Riverfront property. Mr. gilbert has acquired quite a bit. We had a developer come in my neighborhood and buy 200 homes in one big block. And that was 6 months ago. This is not a win win for Detroit neighborhoods. Its been a win win for people who take advantage of people's mis-fortune of not being wealthy before, during, and after the economic downturn.

[melm00se]

108. good post

just need to address the order in which they should occur.

[LanternWaste]

73. I'd repeat the positive, relevant and germane actions of mid-seventies NYC.

I'd repeat the positive, relevant and germane actions of mid-seventies NYC.

(You may have some reading to do...)

[badtoworse]

76. The state created the Muncipal Assistance Corp ("MAC") that issued bonds on the city's behalf.

MAC also oversaw the city's fiscal affairs. NYC had a very substantial tax base that supported the MAC bonds that were issued and the bonds were snapped up. Detroit has very little tax base left and absent a state or federal guarantee, no one would buy the bonds.

[LanternWaste]

78. That was one of four stages of financial strategy.

That was one of four stages of financial strategy.

[badtoworse]

80. It was the most important because it gave the city some liquidity.

The big problem with Detroit is that there is no reason to believe it could repay bonds assuming a MAC-like entity were created to issue them.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

79. Have a big old party with drugs and booze and hookers.

You probably don't want me as your mayor.

[badtoworse]

82. Fiscally, I doubt you could do a worse job and at least your approach sounds like fun

[Boom Sound 416]

81. Good OP

1. Petition the national park service to buy all the neighborhoods that need demo. Air drop seeds and bring back a forest. So in a word reduce.

2. Not knowing a whole lot about the county Detroit resides, I would merge the two municipalities. So you expand Detroit's base while streamlining the govt. this is not meant to dissolve the city. Examples are Miami, Jacksonville and Nashville.

3. The debt. From Apollo 13, "I'll get back to ya Gene"

[hunter]

84. I think this is a job for the Federal Governement.

If they can save the useless big banks or the Pentagon, they can save Detroit.

[Demo_Chris]

91. Not on my dime. nt

[hunter]

92. Because a nuclear powered aircraft carrier is so much better...

I'm a follower of the "trickle up" theory. A government ought to create money for the benefit of the majority and skim it off the top by taxes before it gets scummy and corrupt.

[abelenkpe]

101. Wow

Congratulations. Your response matches my teabagger relatives.

[jmowreader]

95. We bailed out NYC in the 1970s; there is precedent

[CTyankee]

86. I would ask from people here on DU for advice.

I would also seek people who love art to meet withme and advise about how best to conserve the treasure of the DIA. My main priorities would be to seek protection of the workers' retirement benefits and the art for the DIA, which serves the PEOPLE of Detroit...

[rdking647]

93. ok but how....

assume that the state wont bail them out because realisticaly it isnt going to happen.
as to pensions id start with eliminating them for all elected officials #1. they got the city in the hole its in they shouldnt get a dime.
the art unfortunatley is going to have to go. i dont see a way to save it short of someone buying it and redonating it back to the city. in a bk situation paying back creditors takes priority (and pensions are part of those creditors)
next i would wipeout any unsecured bonds. when it comes to general obligation bonds for every dollar that pensions are reduced id reduce the bonds by 2-3x as much. i dont think you can go much beyond that because there will be atime when detroit would need to borrow again and destroying the creditors would pretty much shut them out of the credit market.

Id offer vacant neighborhoods to industry on a tax incentive basis. offer business the opportunity to locate
in a vacant neighborhood at greatly reduced taxes for a length of time provided they hired detroit residents.
thats to start

[CTyankee]

94. I'd prolly look at the history of NYC during its looming threat of bankruptcy

to get some ideas re art. I do understand that the DIA's art is considered an asset of the city. I am wondering how the art could be held in a trust that is not an asset of the city. That might mean someone or some group of people could buy the art and create a trust that could be held for the people in perpetuity. Surely there is a way, altho I am not qualified to be of much help in that area.

[JI7]

88. borrow some money from California

[FarCenter]

90. Subdivide it along the major freeways and avenues into about 14 cities of 10 square miles each.

Then redevelop them one at a time.

[B Calm]

96. I would start putting the money for pensions in a lock box.

[badtoworse]

97. What would that accomplish and what makes you think the bankruptcy judge would allow it?

[B Calm]

99. We do have national labor laws, and if one party negotiated in bad faith,

it's against the law. Not sure how one particular bankruptcy judge will rule.

[badtoworse]

102. Bad faith has nothing to do with it. Detroit is broke.

They owe about $15 billion and don't have the money to pay their bills. In a bankruptcy proceeding, the judge decides who gets paid what out of what assets are available to pay off debt. Legally, there is no way for Detroit to some shield assets such that they're untouchable for paying off creditors. The pensioners will be unsecured creditors in the bankruptcy proceeding and unfortunately, they will likely be hit hard - the numbers I've heard are in the 15 to 20 cents on the dollar range.

[Puzzledtraveller]

98. put your head in the sand

or hang out on DU.

[last1standing]

103. No offense but this is exactly how state republicans want you to frame the question.

This is the standard "you're on your own and can't trust government to help" scenario that republicans are trying to force down the throats of ALL Americans. If we decide that Detroit is an island and must shore up its own banks against the coming hurricane, then there is nothing to do but destroy the lives of the thousands of people who depend on the city holding up its contractual obligations. After all, the city, as an island, has no one else to turn to.

However, if you stop looking at Detroit as an island, and instead see it for what it is (a major city within a major state, within the richest nation in history), then you have options.

What could be done?

First, the city could apply for, and receive, a bridging loan from the state or federal government to remain liquid in the short term. Conversely, if the state and fed can't float the actual cash, then they could at least guarantee the loans. We do it for Iraq and Afghanistan, why not Detroit?

Second, with the breathing space allotted, the city could aggressively prosecute the banks that are withholding necessary funds, attempting to pierce the corporate veil if that threat is needed.

Third, while it is prosecuting the banks, the city could refuse to pay any interest on loans to those banks and cancel its contract handing over casino profits as void due to bad faith actions.

None of this will be done, of course, because the republicans have convinced a majority (even many Democrats) that cities like Detroit are islands.

[badtoworse]

104. What would you prosecute the banks for?

I'm not aware of any laws that were broken. The real problem is that the city was being run by morons.

[last1standing]

105. Certain banks are withholding money due the city in the form of taxes and other fees.

The major one that I know about are the taxes due on the thousands of homes the banks have foreclosed on.

Edited to add: And even if the banks did not owe the city billions of dollars, the city is still not an island. It's health, or lack of health, is felt throughout the state and the country. It is in the interest of all of us to help it out at this time. Yes, Kilpatrick squandered much of the city's resources and the city council wasn't very good, either. But again, that framing is exactly what the republicans want. Put the blame on the city's government and then punish the city as an extension of the management. But that isn't what happens. The management will move on to lucrative jobs while the people in Detroit and the Metro area are left to suffer.

[badtoworse]

106. The city can file a tax lien and then foreclose on the property

That is their recourse if taxes are not being paid. If that is the case, why has this not been done?

[last1standing]

107. Most likely because the city doesn't have the funds to deal with an onslaught of new property.

But I notice you completely evade my point that this is pure republican framing. The city is not an island and it will be the people of the Metro Area, not the government officials who suffer from these actions.

Why are we spending so much time trying to punish the city and so little time trying to save the people who live there?

[badtoworse]

110. Let's say the state and / or the feds bailed out Detroit. The current debt is about $15 billion

Detroit would still need help even if that were wiped out, so there would be costs going forward. If those things were done, there would be a steady parade of municipalities looking for the federal government to bail them out too. The federal government doesn't have the money to save all of our cities with fiscal problems without cutting its spending somewhere else. The same argument applies to the state. In short, neither the feds nor the states can afford to set the precedent you are describing.

I haven't seen any Democratic leaders pushing to help Detroit either. Perhaps it's not really a partisan issue, but a fiscal one that is recognized on both sides of the aisle.

[last1standing]

113. Ah yes, the old "if we give to one, they'll all want it" excuse.

Most cities aren't looking for loans and those that are, could be qualified for need and likely benefit to the citizens.

I'll ask yet again: What about the people who will starve due to this action? Are they merely sad statistics or do we, as a nation, have an obligation to ensure they are provided for?

And another question no one seems to ask: What is the purpose of a society if it does not act for the benefit of its members?

[badtoworse]

118. As a country, we have many homeless people and others living at or below the poverty level.

That is shameful in a country such as ours, but it's an unfortunate reality. We do, however, have a social safety net to help people in such circumstances and it is supposed to prevent them from starving. In my mind, the issue is whether the people who will be hurt by Detroit's bankruptcy should get better treatment than other people who are in a similar situation, but for different reasons. I believe the answer is no. The people in Detroit should rely on the same safety net.

This is going to sound hard, but Detroit is where it is because of corruption and incompetent governance. Voters in Detroit kept that government in power. I don't see why they should be treated better than someone who is destitute because their job was sent offshore, their employer went bankrupt or they managed their money irresponsibly.

[last1standing]

119. If you see Detroit as an island and refuse to see how outside forces such as state gov. aided this..

...then yes, it's the citizens of Detroit who are completely to blame.

I think we have a fundamental disagreement on both the facts and the philosophy surrounding government in general. I believe it is there to help the people by merging services and jobs to protect and benefit them, while you seem to think it is there to act as an autonomous entity that must sink or swim on its own.

I can certainly see that you refuse to even consider the alternatives to an isolated island theory so we're done here.

[oldhippie]

121. Detroit is not an island, it is an independent municipal jurisdiction entity ....

... and thus is responsible for its own survival, or it will be absorbed by some other governmental entity.

I can certainly see that you refuse to even consider the alternatives to an isolated island theory so we're done here.

Agee with me or this discussion is over. Great discussion philosophy.

[rdking647]

109. theres no way the state will loan them money

its not going to happen. the governor is a douchebag. and detroit needs the money now not after an election

an even if they did teh problem already is debt. loaning them more money solves the immediate cash problem but its only temporary. in a couple of years they would be back in the same situation but with even more debt. the city has to either increase income or reduce expenses. they cant raise taxes,they are already way higher than anywhere else in the area. that leaves reducing expenses...

[last1standing]

111. And there's no way I would be in charge of Detroit so we're both posting hypotheticals.

Again, Detroit is not an island and framing the question as though it is doesn't lead to any solution other than raiding its assets and leaving a withered husk behind.

No, neither the state nor the fed will loan or guarantee loans for Detroit. This is because republicans have convinced us that Detroit is an island and must fend for itself or die.

So Detroit will die.

[badtoworse]

112. As I see it, the situation is hopeless.

Bankruptcy is inevitable and unfortunately, a lot of people are going to get hurt that had little to do with the mismanagement that got Detroit to where it currently finds itself.

[n2doc]

115. Legalize pot and tax the hell out of it

Probably not something allowed unless the legislature allows it, but it would bring in a lot of money, and Detroit has a ton of available grow houses and open lots.

[rdking647]

116. i think every place shoudl legalize it

one other think they should do is eliminate the interest rate swap they have with goldman and merril lynch. the swaps are costing 50m a year. the banks want 75% of their money back claiming its a "secured" debt but it should be treated as unsecured and they hsould go to the back of the line for repayment. rather than 75% they should get 10%

[ananda]

117. Turn the whole city into a cooperative.

Let the people run it.

[oldhippie]

120. How, exactly, would that work?

What would be different than how a city normally runs? No representatives? Direct democracy via referendums? How does a coop run a major city?

[Orsino]

122. Tax.

Promote the general welfare in any settlement I could get.

And make public any documents I could get my hands on.